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Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's actually been a known thing for Palladium for a while. For a long long time it was "Crossover, anything goes, anywhere" but as Glitterboy pointed out, when palladium started wanting to/trying to farm out it's IP's it was shown to them if 'everything' was in Rifts, and they sold the rights to rifts, that the other games could be piggy backed into the IP licensing. Thus came the "Seperation"

The first time you really see it is in the RUE. where the Dragons from the RMB, which were.. of course, Dragons from Palladium Fantasy, suddenly disappear and you have funky replacements put in. To keep the IP's separate. Ever since the RUE, they try (To varying levels of success) To keep the IP's separate, so they can license them separate.

It's not a new concept for Palladium, nor is it anything that's been contested by Kevin. he's told multiple people multiple times this is -exactly- what was done and for which exact purpose.

As for your last post Zero Kay. You misunderstand. Different companies licensing out different IP's is EXACTLY what Palladium wants. Your example isn't quite apt though. When Sony got Spiderman they got ___SPIDERMAN____ Not the entire MCU. When Fox got Xmen they got ____XMEN____ Not the MCU (And the Xmen that they got were very specific. Which one's they could use and which ones they could not use.) Then the MCU started to be developed and.... suddenly there were a couple of people that were out side their perview. I.E. Spidy and the Xmen.

As to the Xmen, in specific you'll notice that there's some contention over Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch/Polaris. In the Xmen movie they have quicksilver but he's called "Peter" And is represented as "MAYBE" Magneto's kid. There's hints, just like there's hits of Polaris. In his lap at one point.

in Age of Ultron, It's Pietro Maximoff, and you never once hear the word 'Mutant" because "Mutant" is owned along with the 'Xmen" by sony. Infact the origins that they have imply that Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were 'given' their powers.

So it was a problem. If Sony and Fox keep producing movies, even crappy ones they retain the rights. That's why you see a spiderman movie every 5 or so years, even if it sucks.

NOW.... Sony has entered into contract with the MCU to basically license BACK the ability to use spiderman. It's not free, it's not an action of good will. It's costing them money to put Spidy into Civil War. And A LOT of it.

in Kevin's Case, it wasn't that he didn't want the IP's spread around, it's that he very much DID want them spread around. Sort of the oppisite of what happened with Marvel.
He DOES Want to license Heroes Unlimited to one company. Nightbane to another company, After the Bomb to a third, and Rifts to a fourth. The problem arose when someone pointed out "You know.. if you license rifts... that company can point to this book andgo "Hey it's got ther Palladium dragons in it. we get those too. For free. And it's got Night bane in it, so we get those for free too, and it's got Heroes Unlimited chars so we get them too.

So one company could license for "Rifts" and get the entire package. All of Palladiums IPs. They didn't want that. They wanted the ability to license piece meal. Thus... the need to separate the lines.

Now there's alot to be said about "Locking the barn door once the horse is out" and all but... I'm not a lawyer. It's assumed that whom ever their lawyer was, told them to do this to attempt to separate the lines so they could be licensed individually, instead of in total.

Exactly and all that about the different production companies is pointless... And they cant own mutant it is a defined word not a copyrighted word. The point is you have these three production companies doing what they want with the IP they licensed and what about Marvel comics? Does wolverine no longer show up in Avengers? What about Spiderman in all his cross overs? Marvel didn't have to stop. Technically Avengers should have almost every single hero in it and Fox could have claimed that because spider man had been in... Well the point is Marvel was very specific on what was licensed and still able to cross over... Funny calling it that because it should only be a cross over with DC as all the marvel heroes are in the same multiverse, as much as they want. Point being PB can do the same.
We will sell you the license to Rifts which entitles you to..., but not to... In the meantime we will be mixing our titles like crazy while we limit you.

Or we license you everything in the RMB if it isn't printed in the RMB you can't use it, if the RMB refers to a different universe or another book... You may not use it, except in passing reference (e.g. "Those dragons are native to the Palladium world.") If you do well we will consider licensing other books to you.

Wise_Owl wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Is it silly? Of course it is. So is killing people in Paris over a cartoon. So is blowing up people in Brussels. It's the height of absurdity, stupidity, and just flat out wackadoodle insanity.

Doesn't mean it doesn't sometimes happen. And I think it's pretty safe to point out it happens more these days than it did in the mid 90s

I'm not trying to say it makes sense. It makes no kind of sense, but that seldom stops people that -want- to have problems with this sort of thing.

Do I think someone's going to travel to MI and blow up Palladium? Of course not.

Do I think it's very easy for people on --all sides-- of anything "Middle east" To take offense or even feign offense? Yes. SO Easy. Does that offense stretch from simple online badmouthing to bad press to boycots to even more stupid and absurd things? Yes. Palladium doesn't want -any- of that. From the bottom all the way to the insane top.

Lose lose situations are seldom beneficial to enter into if you don't have to. Palladium doesn't have to

As for what makes up the middle east.... history lessons are well and good, but largely don't mean alot when you're talking about modern perception.

Modern Perception of the Middle Ease is as I defined above.

And any way you cut it, Iran, is in the Middle East, from the dawning of the term.

This simply vastly over-inflates Palladiums importance and misunderstands the structure of 'Middle Eastern' politics as well as just the production of works. There are countless works out there dealing with a Fantasy Arabia. I provided a pretty good example of one which has vastly more visibility than Palladium is realistically ever going to have(It won a host of awards, was on some best-sellers lists, etc. It's a great book incidentally to anyone who is wondering.) Palladium isn't going to 'suffer' by putting out a fantasy/Sci-Fi/Post Apocyptic pastiche of Flying Carpets, Djinni and waste-lands. If the argument is 'We are too Ignorant and would end up making Cyber-Mohamed or portraying all remaining non-Isreali's as Monsters attacking the Judaic fountain of freedom' or some other such nonesense, well fine. Good to know your limitations. I just don't really see it, or by it. Other companies can pull this off. The Fear being projected here is just weird. Like being afraid that if they made a Rifts Korea, Kim Jong Un would have the writers kidnapped for offending the glorious peoples revolution or something. It's a fear out of step with reality.

Don't do the book if you think it will be garbage. Don't do the book if you don't have any good idea's for it. Hell, don't do the book if it just doesn't interest you and you have better idea's applied elsewhere. But 'We don't want to do this because we might offend people in the middle east'... that's just odd. I think we've kind of exhausted the topic so I'll just let it drop beyond this point.

I think another Africa book would be great incidentally. Fix some of the most glaring issues with the first Africa book. I mean Africa is HUGE and what we got is a bunch of 'tribes', some traditional magic, necromancy and a whole lot about Egypt? I liked the Horseman as much as the next guy but where are the surviving technological entities of Africa? It has like 20% of the planets landmass and 15% of it's population(North America is 16.5 and 7.5% respectively). There's Euro-centricism and than there's Eurocentricism. Africa is a huge place and it's different regions and Biomes deserve some love. Throw in a techno-magical rebirth Songhai empire that acts as a weird sort of Vassal state for enemies of the Splugorth, or odd powers aligned on Coast of the Arabian Sea producing a trade in Magical Artifiacts and Biomancy across the Indian Ocean or something.

Give me another book like the Warlords of Russia, where I read it and thought "Damn, I want to put a game there, that's pretty cool!".

I 100% Agree. They so need to do a Fortress Israel and 101 Arabian night techno mystic Rifts style mash up.

Wait, did someone take my Kim Jong-Un comment seriously instead of the sarcastic remark to show the silliness of the policy?

Zer0 Kay [quote="Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's actually been a known thing for Palladium for a while. For a long long time it was "Crossover, anything goes, anywhere" but as Glitterboy pointed out, when palladium started wanting to/trying to farm out it's IP's it was shown to them if 'everything' was in Rifts, and they sold the rights to rifts, that the other games could be piggy backed into the IP licensing. Thus came the "Seperation"

The first time you really see it is in the RUE. where the Dragons from the RMB, which were.. of course, Dragons from Palladium Fantasy, suddenly disappear and you have funky replacements put in. To keep the IP's separate. Ever since the RUE, they try (To varying levels of success) To keep the IP's separate, so they can license them separate.

It's not a new concept for Palladium, nor is it anything that's been contested by Kevin. he's told multiple people multiple times this is -exactly- what was done and for which exact purpose.

As for your last post Zero Kay. You misunderstand. Different companies licensing out different IP's is EXACTLY what Palladium wants. Your example isn't quite apt though. When Sony got Spiderman they got ___SPIDERMAN____ Not the entire MCU. When Fox got Xmen they got ____XMEN____ Not the MCU (And the Xmen that they got were very specific. Which one's they could use and which ones they could not use.) Then the MCU started to be developed and.... suddenly there were a couple of people that were out side their perview. I.E. Spidy and the Xmen.

As to the Xmen, in specific you'll notice that there's some contention over Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch/Polaris. In the Xmen movie they have quicksilver but he's called "Peter" And is represented as "MAYBE" Magneto's kid. There's hints, just like there's hits of Polaris. In his lap at one point.

in Age of Ultron, It's Pietro Maximoff, and you never once hear the word 'Mutant" because "Mutant" is owned along with the 'Xmen" by sony. Infact the origins that they have imply that Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were 'given' their powers.

So it was a problem. If Sony and Fox keep producing movies, even crappy ones they retain the rights. That's why you see a spiderman movie every 5 or so years, even if it sucks.

NOW.... Sony has entered into contract with the MCU to basically license BACK the ability to use spiderman. It's not free, it's not an action of good will. It's costing them money to put Spidy into Civil War. And A LOT of it.

in Kevin's Case, it wasn't that he didn't want the IP's spread around, it's that he very much DID want them spread around. Sort of the oppisite of what happened with Marvel.
He DOES Want to license Heroes Unlimited to one company. Nightbane to another company, After the Bomb to a third, and Rifts to a fourth. The problem arose when someone pointed out "You know.. if you license rifts... that company can point to this book andgo "Hey it's got ther Palladium dragons in it. we get those too. For free. And it's got Night bane in it, so we get those for free too, and it's got Heroes Unlimited chars so we get them too.

So one company could license for "Rifts" and get the entire package. All of Palladiums IPs. They didn't want that. They wanted the ability to license piece meal. Thus... the need to separate the lines.

Now there's alot to be said about "Locking the barn door once the horse is out" and all but... I'm not a lawyer. It's assumed that whom ever their lawyer was, told them to do this to attempt to separate the lines so they could be licensed individually, instead of in total.

Exactly and all that about the different production companies is pointless... [/quote]

But it's not if you want maximum control over a number of IP's and dont' want to sell off all the IP's in one chunk, which is what Kevin/Palladium is striving to avoid.

Zer0 Kay wrote: And they cant own mutant it is a defined word not a copyrighted word.

Google it. You'll find out you're wrong. They own the rights to use it in that fashion. Speaking about super heroes and what have you. It's in the deal for the Xmen Ip. Sort of like Iron Man is copyrighted. Even though "Iron and "man" Are words we can all use. If you try and use Iron man with out Marvel's permission. BOOM. Lawsuit

Zer0 Kay wrote: The point is you have these three production companies doing what they want with the IP they licensed and what about Marvel comics? Does wolverine no longer show up in Avengers?

Yes. Exactly that. And thus the problem. The three production companeis are not doing what they want with the IP. Not any more. Marvel wants um back so it can keep the MCU clean. There's been, lets be honest, some STINKER Xmen and Spiderman movies, but due to the 'old' contracts, if the companies keep producing movies every few years, they retain the rights and Marvel can't legally just yank um back.

NO you will NOT See Wolverine (Or beast, or storm, or any of the other Xmen that are also avengers) In the Avengers. not with out Marvel having to BUY BACK the licensing for their own character.
It's like this... I have... 10 guns. You want to lease one of my guns so I lease it to you. You can shoot that gun all you want. The lease says, as long as you shoot it once a year, you get to keep leasing it. So.. you shoot it once a year. Even if it's just one shot at a target range. Now.. time has passed. I want to use the gun I leased to you, but due to the lease, as long as you keep shooting it once a year. I can't demand it back. You have the right to it. But now you know I want my gun back.. So even though I've leased it to you.... you retain the rights, and can offer to sub-lease it back to me. I.E. I'm now paying you.. to use the gun, I own, that I leased to you.

That's what they're doing with Spidy in Civil war, and that's what they'd have to do with Wolverine, Beast. Iceman, Storm. any of the other Xmen that are 'also' Avengers. Also Fantastic 4 if memory serves is in the same deal.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

What about Spiderman in all his cross overs? Marvel didn't have to stop.

What cross overs? Civil war is the first one. If you mean the comics, Marvel retains control over all the comics, they can cross over there as much as they like. The movie rights are a different matter.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Technically Avengers should have almost every single hero in it and Fox could have claimed that because spider man had been in... Well the point is Marvel was very specific on what was licensed and still able to cross over...

Exactly, and Marvel now regrets how it farmed out Spidy, the Xmen and to a lessor extent Fantastic 4, as they can't 'legally' get the rights back unless the companies stop making movies. (Well they could fight it in court but it'd be a multi million dollar fight)

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Funny calling it that because it should only be a cross over with DC as all the marvel heroes are in the same multiverse, as much as they want.

But they're not. Not when different companies maintain the rights to independantly use the IP's. You won't see Marvel's MCU using stuff from the previous Spiderman movies for example.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Point being PB can do the same.

Seems that you're incorrect. And that kevin doesn't want to risk it.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

We will sell you the license to Rifts which entitles you to..., but not to... In the meantime we will be mixing our titles like crazy while we limit you.

But then it gets into legal battles in court. It's easier to separate the lines from the jump and cut it off that way. I'm sure there is language like you say but there's over 50 rifts books alone. They're not going to micro manage every page of every book in the contract. They're _TRYING_ To market out their IPs. Too many restrictions and noone wants them.

This isn't the MCU where people are dieing to throw millions and millions and hundreds of millions at the company. It's Palladium. Like 6 guys in a warehouse in MI.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Or we license you everything in the RMB if it isn't printed in the RMB you can't use it, if the RMB refers to a different universe or another book... You may not use it, except in passing reference (e.g. "Those dragons are native to the Palladium world.") If you do well we will consider licensing other books to you.

That would limit the money they could get for their Ip's. "Core book only" wouldn't be worth the same as' Rifts has this book and 50 other expansion books with literally 1000s of pages of material you can use"

Just like... You pay less for just the RMB, than you would for all 50+ Rifts books.

Obviously you didn't get that when I said what about marvel comics. Is wolverine... I was referring to... THE COMICS.. So yes we will see Storm and wolverine or Spidey or whomever they want in whatever comic they want because Marvel still owns complete rights and handled the licensing in such a way as to restrict the various production companies from being able to say, "hey Doctor Strange was once in Spiderman so we ha e the right to him too."

I see your fixated on the production company end. I'm speaking for the side I care about, which is the original IP holder. The IP holder doesn't have to separate all of his IP on his end if his lawyer is worth his money.

PB may have over 50 books and if they farm it out per book it'll take good record keeping but it would allow flexibility. They only have what 10 "worlds" so if they'd farm it out that way it wouldn't take so much record keeping. The idea of per book does reduce value but it would be flexible. So one book isn't enough Mr. Production company? Which books would you like? Alright that'll be $xx.

Marvel isn't sorry they licensed the IPs Disney is sorry that Marvel sold the IPs and if Disney deems it necessary to retrieve it they've got good lawyers and money. I always figured that Disney should retrieve all licenses and then give those companies full ownership of a Marvel Universe. "K Sony you have universe 212 and Fox yours will be 482 we will retain the rights to everything else and your works may but are not required to influence the "core" universes. You two can hash anything out that comes to similarities between your works but we will not be held to either. Our world, our playground and you can play in that corner of the sandbox and we may or may not incorporate what we see.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Obviously you didn't get that when I said what about marvel comics. Is wolverine... I was referring to... THE COMICS.. So yes we will see Storm and wolverine or Spidey or whomever they want in whatever comic they want because Marvel still owns complete rights and handled the licensing in such a way as to restrict the various production companies from being able to say, "hey Doctor Strange was once in Spiderman so we ha e the right to him too."

I see your fixated on the production company end. I'm speaking for the side I care about, which is the original IP holder. The IP holder doesn't have to separate all of his IP on his end if his lawyer is worth his money.

PB may have over 50 books and if they farm it out per book it'll take good record keeping but it would allow flexibility. They only have what 10 "worlds" so if they'd farm it out that way it wouldn't take so much record keeping. The idea of per book does reduce value but it would be flexible. So one book isn't enough Mr. Production company? Which books would you like? Alright that'll be $xx.

Marvel isn't sorry they licensed the IPs Disney is sorry that Marvel sold the IPs and if Disney deems it necessary to retrieve it they've got good lawyers and money. I always figured that Disney should retrieve all licenses and then give those companies full ownership of a Marvel Universe. "K Sony you have universe 212 and Fox yours will be 482 we will retain the rights to everything else and your works may but are not required to influence the "core" universes. You two can hash anything out that comes to similarities between your works but we will not be held to either. Our world, our playground and you can play in that corner of the sandbox and we may or may not incorporate what we see.

No. I get it. You're just not really talking about the same thing Kay. Things don't work the way you're portraying.

Palladium's lawyers seem like they're worth the money. You can look up the guy who wrote the Internet Policy, for instance.

Zer0 Kay wrote: You two can hash anything out that comes to similarities between your works but we will not be held to either. Our world, our playground and you can play in that corner of the sandbox and we may or may not incorporate what we see.

This would never happen.

Palladium is not Marvel. Many problems can occur if Palladium doesn't clearly differentiate its IP. Spider Man is worth Disney's money. Wolfen are not. If someone makes Wolfen in a movie before Disney makes Phase World, or whatever, then that other party COULD sue Disney when it starts production. The threat of ANY extra cost may be enough for Disney to stop paying Palladium for an IP it may never use.

Palladium apparently is being paid fairly well for the license of Rifts, and may be the primary reason Palladium still exists. Disney probably gets the first option to extend (which Disney has been paying for), and don't have very many other responsibilities, like maybe ever actually producing anything (because they're the big dog in the negotiation). Palladium does have a lot of responsibilities if it wants to keep getting Disney's money. The most important responsibility is protecting Disney's interests in the IP, and preventing any chance of Disney incurring any extra costs which could impede production or make Disney feel like it's just not worth paying for the license anymore.

At the same time, Palladium doesn't want to be tied to Disney alone. It does have a bunch of cool IPs which, despite being related somewhat in conceptual history, are separate games, with different themes and focuses. Maybe some other production company would like to make a movie set in Palladium fantasy. That's money Palladium doesn't want to say no to because it owes Disney the protection. It also owes the new partner some evidence that Disney won't sue the new partner, or cause other issues.

There's a lot of foggy middle ground in IP law. A lot of problems in the interpretation of the law actually never make it through the courts (due to out of court super secret settlements etc.), and different courts often come to contradictory conclusions. The intent of the parties, and their explicit activity, plays a large role in the potential outcome of any court's interpretation.

Sending cease and desist letters shows Palladium's determination to protect the IP (they don't have to actually sue, which may be impossible due to cost, they just have to act proactively to protect), which doesn't protect them from fans, rather it helps protect Palladium from the possibility of another, perhaps more successful game company, reducing the value of their commercial activity. Separating similar terms explicitly shows Palladium's intent to treat the IPs as separate, so no one can claim "hey Palladium fooled us!" or something. Palladium jumps through hoops (or rather their lawyers do) in order to create a very safe environment for everyone around their IP.


Marvel is worth extra cost. They may actually have treated their IP poorly in the past, and made their transition to what they are now more difficult than it needed to be, but they can now actually pay for litigation, and therefor others don't see them as a small fish in negotiations, or easy to push around, on top of which their IP is clearly incredibly valuable in and of itself, and other parties are willing to suffer a bit for it. Everyone involved probably wants to deal with the situation amicably, and no party has any way to know who would win in any probable conflict. A suit between these players would be very expensive (for a project that should make everyone happy financially if dealt with well) and it would likely end in a settlement (thus not affecting the status quo, inconclusive though it is, of IP law), which is basically the same thing as a negotiation (just with a lot of yelling and money being thrown around beforehand).

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Obviously you didn't get that when I said what about marvel comics. Is wolverine... I was referring to... THE COMICS.. So yes we will see Storm and wolverine or Spidey or whomever they want in whatever comic they want because Marvel still owns complete rights and handled the licensing in such a way as to restrict the various production companies from being able to say, "hey Doctor Strange was once in Spiderman so we ha e the right to him too."

I see your fixated on the production company end. I'm speaking for the side I care about, which is the original IP holder. The IP holder doesn't have to separate all of his IP on his end if his lawyer is worth his money.

PB may have over 50 books and if they farm it out per book it'll take good record keeping but it would allow flexibility. They only have what 10 "worlds" so if they'd farm it out that way it wouldn't take so much record keeping. The idea of per book does reduce value but it would be flexible. So one book isn't enough Mr. Production company? Which books would you like? Alright that'll be $xx.

Marvel isn't sorry they licensed the IPs Disney is sorry that Marvel sold the IPs and if Disney deems it necessary to retrieve it they've got good lawyers and money. I always figured that Disney should retrieve all licenses and then give those companies full ownership of a Marvel Universe. "K Sony you have universe 212 and Fox yours will be 482 we will retain the rights to everything else and your works may but are not required to influence the "core" universes. You two can hash anything out that comes to similarities between your works but we will not be held to either. Our world, our playground and you can play in that corner of the sandbox and we may or may not incorporate what we see.

No. I get it. You're just not really talking about the same thing Kay. Things don't work the way you're portraying.

Again. They do, because they did for Marvel AND D.C..

The companies give a license for a limited area of their "Megaverse".
While the movie companies can produce movies within that preview they may not expand beyond it, unless they pick up that license. Selling books is exactly what Marvel and D.C. do. They don't give all characters in Gotham or Star City or Metropolis or their Marvel equivalents they offer them a series. And though you may think HU, Rifts, Splicers is a series; in many cases a series can be made off a single book. They may think control of IP or rather EASE of claim and you say by the book isn't enough or possible. I say Marvel and D.C. have both done fine control while keeping their universe together and that MANY other single books have been licensed to make a movie and this were with strict stories with Rifts the writer will eventually end up having to run a game. Keeping the base universe together, with a company that exercises good control of their IP increases the value. Ripping everything out of Rifts now makes it so the production company won't want to, or rather know to ask, unless they KNOW the game, to add-on PFRPG or N&S or if somehow a martial artist is in there and some guy with super human powers they wouldn't know they could split off the characters. Kinda like the Arrow and the Flash in the first case and Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow in the second. Nope for PB's licensing it is "Arrow" and "The Flash" never the two shall meet, and a "Legends of Tomorrow" could never happen.

I am just going to toss this out to all the armchair lawyers here....
Does anyone happen to actually know what the terms of the previous licenses are (you do recall that a video game was produced and a movie license is already out there)
It is all well and good to talk about the hypothetical things you think may or may not be possible....
...but I am not hearing any actual IP lawyers chime in, nor anyone who actually has looked at (or even has tangential knowledge of) the current licenses. I would like to suggest that perhaps maybe there was a reason to go about scrubbing the system and making formal 'bright lines' between material? My humble suggestion is that the effort was not done just on a whim by some people who have no idea at all of how IP licenses work and might actually have been informed by professional legal advise by actual experts in the field.
Just a thought.

<Edit> I missed Jocriks thoughtful and insightful post. My error.
He seems to be saying pretty much the same thing I was, though in far better detail.

Jorick wrote:Palladium's lawyers seem like they're worth the money. You can look up the guy who wrote the Internet Policy, for instance.

Zer0 Kay wrote: You two can hash anything out that comes to similarities between your works but we will not be held to either. Our world, our playground and you can play in that corner of the sandbox and we may or may not incorporate what we see.

This would never happen.

Palladium is not Marvel. Many problems can occur if Palladium doesn't clearly differentiate its IP. Spider Man is worth Disney's money. Wolfen are not. If someone makes Wolfen in a movie before Disney makes Phase World, or whatever, then that other party COULD sue Disney when it starts production. The threat of ANY extra cost may be enough for Disney to stop paying Palladium for an IP it may never use.

Palladium apparently is being paid fairly well for the license of Rifts, and may be the primary reason Palladium still exists. Disney probably gets the first option to extend (which Disney has been paying for), and don't have very many other responsibilities, like maybe ever actually producing anything (because they're the big dog in the negotiation). Palladium does have a lot of responsibilities if it wants to keep getting Disney's money. The most important responsibility is protecting Disney's interests in the IP, and preventing any chance of Disney incurring any extra costs which could impede production or make Disney feel like it's just not worth paying for the license anymore.

At the same time, Palladium doesn't want to be tied to Disney alone. It does have a bunch of cool IPs which, despite being related somewhat in conceptual history, are separate games, with different themes and focuses. Maybe some other production company would like to make a movie set in Palladium fantasy. That's money Palladium doesn't want to say no to because it owes Disney the protection. It also owes the new partner some evidence that Disney won't sue the new partner, or cause other issues.

There's a lot of foggy middle ground in IP law. A lot of problems in the interpretation of the law actually never make it through the courts (due to out of court super secret settlements etc.), and different courts often come to contradictory conclusions. The intent of the parties, and their explicit activity, plays a large role in the potential outcome of any court's interpretation.

Sending cease and desist letters shows Palladium's determination to protect the IP (they don't have to actually sue, which may be impossible due to cost, they just have to act proactively to protect), which doesn't protect them from fans, rather it helps protect Palladium from the possibility of another, perhaps more successful game company, reducing the value of their commercial activity. Separating similar terms explicitly shows Palladium's intent to treat the IPs as separate, so no one can claim "hey Palladium fooled us!" or something. Palladium jumps through hoops (or rather their lawyers do) in order to create a very safe environment for everyone around their IP.


Marvel is worth extra cost. They may actually have treated their IP poorly in the past, and made their transition to what they are now more difficult than it needed to be, but they can now actually pay for litigation, and therefor others don't see them as a small fish in negotiations, or easy to push around, on top of which their IP is clearly incredibly valuable in and of itself, and other parties are willing to suffer a bit for it. Everyone involved probably wants to deal with the situation amicably, and no party has any way to know who would win in any probable conflict. A suit between these players would be very expensive (for a project that should make everyone happy financially if dealt with well) and it would likely end in a settlement (thus not affecting the status quo, inconclusive though it is, of IP law), which is basically the same thing as a negotiation (just with a lot of yelling and money being thrown around beforehand).

And while it may make it easier to protect them and their suitors, it hurts us. The wealth of books we COULD get. Then again we aren't even getting the books were supposed to so I guess it is no biggie. They realm need to hire full time writers like TSR in the old days with only a few Freelancers. Start milling out the books they promise and then surprise us with books that weren't.

I think the separation might partially be to encourage the purchase of other book from other lines instead of protecting IP farming. Many things that are useful for rifts require purchase of other books. Like the spell creation rules in through the glass darkly.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Obviously you didn't get that when I said what about marvel comics. Is wolverine... I was referring to... THE COMICS.. So yes we will see Storm and wolverine or Spidey or whomever they want in whatever comic they want because Marvel still owns complete rights and handled the licensing in such a way as to restrict the various production companies from being able to say, "hey Doctor Strange was once in Spiderman so we ha e the right to him too."

I see your fixated on the production company end. I'm speaking for the side I care about, which is the original IP holder. The IP holder doesn't have to separate all of his IP on his end if his lawyer is worth his money.

PB may have over 50 books and if they farm it out per book it'll take good record keeping but it would allow flexibility. They only have what 10 "worlds" so if they'd farm it out that way it wouldn't take so much record keeping. The idea of per book does reduce value but it would be flexible. So one book isn't enough Mr. Production company? Which books would you like? Alright that'll be $xx.

Marvel isn't sorry they licensed the IPs Disney is sorry that Marvel sold the IPs and if Disney deems it necessary to retrieve it they've got good lawyers and money. I always figured that Disney should retrieve all licenses and then give those companies full ownership of a Marvel Universe. "K Sony you have universe 212 and Fox yours will be 482 we will retain the rights to everything else and your works may but are not required to influence the "core" universes. You two can hash anything out that comes to similarities between your works but we will not be held to either. Our world, our playground and you can play in that corner of the sandbox and we may or may not incorporate what we see.

No. I get it. You're just not really talking about the same thing Kay. Things don't work the way you're portraying.

Again. They do, because they did for Marvel AND D.C..

The companies give a license for a limited area of their "Megaverse".
While the movie companies can produce movies within that preview they may not expand beyond it, unless they pick up that license. Selling books is exactly what Marvel and D.C. do. They don't give all characters in Gotham or Star City or Metropolis or their Marvel equivalents they offer them a series. And though you may think HU, Rifts, Splicers is a series; in many cases a series can be made off a single book. They may think control of IP or rather EASE of claim and you say by the book isn't enough or possible. I say Marvel and D.C. have both done fine control while keeping their universe together and that MANY other single books have been licensed to make a movie and this were with strict stories with Rifts the writer will eventually end up having to run a game. Keeping the base universe together, with a company that exercises good control of their IP increases the value. Ripping everything out of Rifts now makes it so the production company won't want to, or rather know to ask, unless they KNOW the game, to add-on PFRPG or N&S or if somehow a martial artist is in there and some guy with super human powers they wouldn't know they could split off the characters. Kinda like the Arrow and the Flash in the first case and Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow in the second. Nope for PB's licensing it is "Arrow" and "The Flash" never the two shall meet, and a "Legends of Tomorrow" could never happen.

Marvel is actually producing its own movies. A bank gave it an incredibly large amount of money to do so, apparently in exchange the bank got the right to do whatever it wanted with the characters (thus possibly completely destroying Marvel) if the new production company failed. Disney currently distributes, but does not produce, the films.

This model was novel. Previously, there was no possibility of any crossover, or "cinematic universe" or whatever. Previously, deals like the one that still persists with Sony were made, character by character.

Give Palladium $500 million to do with what it likes and it can make a movie of Wolfen Cyber-Knights from Mystic China fight Splicer Glitter Boys in Merc-Town. Until then, you hand things out piecemeal, try to keep it safe, and hope the property doesn't get stuck in litigation like Spidey was.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
And while it may make it easier to protect them and their suitors, it hurts us. The wealth of books we COULD get. Then again we aren't even getting the books were supposed to so I guess it is no biggie. They realm need to hire full time writers like TSR in the old days with only a few Freelancers. Start milling out the books they promise and then surprise us with books that weren't.

TSR no longer exists. They are not a model to be followed by one who wishes to continue self-publishing the material one created and continues to create.

Jorick wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:
And while it may make it easier to protect them and their suitors, it hurts us. The wealth of books we COULD get. Then again we aren't even getting the books were supposed to so I guess it is no biggie. They realm need to hire full time writers like TSR in the old days with only a few Freelancers. Start milling out the books they promise and then surprise us with books that weren't.

TSR no longer exists. They are not a model to be followed by one who wishes to continue self-publishing the material one created and continues to create.

Most of the big names in RPGS have changed hands. Rifts is one of them that stayed in the original companies hands and still cranking out books. Given its age and that it often shows up in ranking lists shows it is doing something right. Out of all the iconic names from RPGS I know I think only Gurps and Rifts remain in the same company.

(With no movie or TV show it lacks the public fame of games based on those, and does not get the its new every few years with a change of edition. So it is more of its there because it is there kind of game and based on some flashy trick for recognition.) To me one of the things I like about it I do not have rebuy books with the same thing in them every few years.)

Some people don't get it. Palladium with it's 5 or 6 employee's Isn't MARVEL and the MCU
Palladium produces 3, MAYBE 4 books a year.

Pre- Age of Ultron and Antman..

"To date, Marvel movies have made over $7.1 billion worldwide, averaging $716 million per movie. And to clarify, that’s in box office revenue only. The amount those movies have generated in toy/merchandise sales, comic book sales, and licensing deals seems nearly immeasurable

1. The Avengers – $1.518 billion

2. Iron Man 3 – $1.215 billion

3. Guardians of the Galaxy – $774.2 million

4. Captain America: The Winter Soldier – $714.8

5. Thor: The Dark World – $644.8 million

6. Iron Man 2 – $623.9 million

7. Iron Man – $585.2 million

8. Thor: $449.3 million

9. Captain America: The First Avenger – $370.6 million

10. The Incredible Hulk – $263.4 million"

Age of Ultron put another $1.405 BILLION on top of that.
Antman put up another 519 million so that's almost 2 billion more on top.

No. Palladium isn't a 9 BILLION DOLLAR Franchise. You can't really look at it the same.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Some people don't get it. Palladium with it's 5 or 6 employee's Isn't MARVEL and the MCU
Palladium produces 3, MAYBE 4 books a year.

Pre- Age of Ultron and Antman..

"To date, Marvel movies have made over $7.1 billion worldwide, averaging $716 million per movie. And to clarify, that’s in box office revenue only. The amount those movies have generated in toy/merchandise sales, comic book sales, and licensing deals seems nearly immeasurable

1. The Avengers – $1.518 billion

2. Iron Man 3 – $1.215 billion

3. Guardians of the Galaxy – $774.2 million

4. Captain America: The Winter Soldier – $714.8

5. Thor: The Dark World – $644.8 million

6. Iron Man 2 – $623.9 million

7. Iron Man – $585.2 million

8. Thor: $449.3 million

9. Captain America: The First Avenger – $370.6 million

10. The Incredible Hulk – $263.4 million"

Age of Ultron put another $1.405 BILLION on top of that.
Antman put up another 519 million so that's almost 2 billion more on top.

No. Palladium isn't a 9 BILLION DOLLAR Franchise. You can't really look at it the same.

You seamed to missed dead pool it looks like over 700 million world wide and is still in theaters.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchises ... comics.htm

Deadpool wasn't produced in the MCU. It was done by Fox under the Xmen license... I didn't forget it.

And for the record it's at $619.3 Million but for Fox, not the MCU

It's why they had to change the Heli-carrier in the last reel in a number of ways to be an "homage' instead of a direct representation.

Its still marvel.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Some people don't get it. Palladium with it's 5 or 6 employee's Isn't MARVEL and the MCU
Palladium produces 3, MAYBE 4 books a year.

Pre- Age of Ultron and Antman..

"To date, Marvel movies have made over $7.1 billion worldwide, averaging $716 million per movie. And to clarify, that’s in box office revenue only. The amount those movies have generated in toy/merchandise sales, comic book sales, and licensing deals seems nearly immeasurable

1. The Avengers – $1.518 billion

2. Iron Man 3 – $1.215 billion

3. Guardians of the Galaxy – $774.2 million

4. Captain America: The Winter Soldier – $714.8

5. Thor: The Dark World – $644.8 million

6. Iron Man 2 – $623.9 million

7. Iron Man – $585.2 million

8. Thor: $449.3 million

9. Captain America: The First Avenger – $370.6 million

10. The Incredible Hulk – $263.4 million"

Age of Ultron put another $1.405 BILLION on top of that.
Antman put up another 519 million so that's almost 2 billion more on top.

No. Palladium isn't a 9 BILLION DOLLAR Franchise. You can't really look at it the same.

You seamed to missed dead pool it looks like over 700 million world wide and is still in theaters.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchises ... comics.htm

Put it in better perspective.
Marvel makes more money annually just from movies than say....the entire GDP of the Maldives
Add in their merchandising the rest and the movie arm is doing better than a lot of small countries.
Its literally like trying to compare say.....a state high-school film competition and wondering why they are not preempting the Academy Awards.

Blue_Lion wrote:Its still marvel.

So are all the Xmen movies and Spiderman movies and fantastic four but.... they're not in the MCU and the MCU doesn't get the profits and if you've been keeping track of the thread... are out side entities.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Its still marvel.

So are all the Xmen movies and Spiderman movies and fantastic four but.... they're not in the MCU and the MCU doesn't get the profits and if you've been keeping track of the thread... are out side entities.

MCU is still marvel, focus on the company as a whole and not just one part.

To get this pointed a little more towards the original topic:

The entire separation effort was thrown completely out the window and made moot when the Minion War series launched.

Any efforts to separate them were entirely undone, as the books make it unequivocally clear that they are all the same multiverse and all part of the same IP.

And yes, before anyone asks, i did ask a (copyright) lawyer. One of the benefits of 20+ years of LARPing is that i know a lot of people in diverse fields. One of them (actually currently the President of said LARP) is a lawyer specializing in copyright.

The "separation" is a (legal) fantasy.

.. more to the point, we should probably move this particular discussion to its own thread, rather than continuing to hijack this one (and im sorry if im th eone who started the hijack).

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Its still marvel.

So are all the Xmen movies and Spiderman movies and fantastic four but.... they're not in the MCU and the MCU doesn't get the profits and if you've been keeping track of the thread... are out side entities.

MCU is still marvel, focus on the company as a whole and not just one part.

The point of speaking of it at all, is that the two IP's were licensed out separately Lion. That it relates back to Palladium trying to do the same. (Even though Marvel now regrets doing so)

I think you are assuming much here I am not aware of effort to for a movie from any other game line. Cross overs such as the minion war or conversion books do not prevent different games from being different IP even if they have some of the same stuff. It is like how grey hawk is different from forgotten realms, a book or movie from one would not affect one from the other.

I still think we need more info on the deep south. Dinosaur was not enough. Gotta have more cities and people and factions.

Rifts: Greenland

Back in 1990 I had this Idea that the REF SDF-3 ship had crashlanded on Rifts earth after a spacefold accident. The vessel materialized within the earth on Greenland. The survivors found themselves on a largely frozen land mass, with only the southern portion capable of farming/agriculture.

I had created an entirely new society with ideologies and even religious orders blossoming among the survivors.

Currently I believe Greenland represents the largest land mass yet un-described in the Rifts world.

Rifts Midwest war-zone: anything north of federation of magic and between C.S borders and the Appalachian Mountains (northern Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, western Pennsylvania )

SubHero wrote:Rifts: Greenland

Back in 1990 I had this Idea that the REF SDF-3 ship had crashlanded on Rifts earth after a spacefold accident. The vessel materialized within the earth on Greenland. The survivors found themselves on a largely frozen land mass, with only the southern portion capable of farming/agriculture.

I had created an entirely new society with ideologies and even religious orders blossoming among the survivors.

Currently I believe Greenland represents the largest land mass yet un-described in the Rifts world.

I kinda had the same except it was an Iki had a misfold and crashed into the icepack in the Arctic an Invid Hive somehow end up appearing on the sea floor below them. They continue on with their enmity the humans scouting out North Am find the CS at first the CS thinks they're humans from the space stations and side with them again then when the CS finds out about the Sentinels and Micronians they turn on the traitors. Oddly enough the Invid find that FoL on this Earth mutate into a form that is dangerous to them. Their Princes requests a cease fire with the UEEF and sides with them again the CS

On the other side of the planet a large mass of ice in the Antarctic is transported to Splicers while a large land mass from splicers is transported to replace it, the pieces swapping places. Splicers ends up with a lake that is the only non living source of PPE and Rifts ends up with a splicer house and a small machine outpost which is capable of manufacturing and repairing robots but can not manufacture nanobots. Splinters of the Nexus reside in the factory and are unaware of the splicer house below them because their exit tunnels are miles away. The robots and humans came two different ways. The robots the "normal" way and the humans passed through some weird dimensional membrane that was reflective and as they passed seemed to shatter and reform behind them.

Im still waiting ever so patiently for Rifts Scandinavia.

I thought my Rifts: Korea campaign setting was cool, but apparently it didn't catch on. How about Rifts: Oregon?

You could have organic bionics, local techno-wizardry and sustainable power armor. All magic would be ley-line-to-market. New Portland would be an inclusive, tolerant safe space for d-bees, protected by Bike Messenger O.C.C.s and Free-Range Xiticix.

While not a World Book for Rifts, I personally would like so see a reverse Conversion book, as in a definitive guide for converting from Rifts to the other settings. I'd also like to see a properly done Book of Magic, featuring all of the spells from all of the books. From there, a unified, properly megaversal book of character classes, complete with rules for dimension hopping between different settings.

parkhyun wrote:I thought my Rifts: Korea campaign setting was cool, but apparently it didn't catch on. How about Rifts: Oregon?

You could have organic bionics, local techno-wizardry and sustainable power armor. All magic would be ley-line-to-market. New Portland would be an inclusive, tolerant safe space for d-bees, protected by Bike Messenger O.C.C.s and Free-Range Xiticix.

Re: "Organic Bionics"
Those already exist in several forms:
-Bio-Wizardry's Bio-Borgs (WB2/WB21)
-Genetic Engineering (Gene Splicers/Tech, CS, SA mutants, etc) and cloning
-Bio-System Cybernetics, not bionic grade I admit
-Phase World even has the Necro with the "Splicers"-esque organic hardware

So I'm not sure what you could do with Organic Bionics that hasn't been done already.

Re: "Organic Bionics"
Those already exist in several forms:
-Bio-Wizardry's Bio-Borgs (WB2/WB21)
-Genetic Engineering (Gene Splicers/Tech, CS, SA mutants, etc) and cloning
-Bio-System Cybernetics, not bionic grade I admit
-Phase World even has the Necro with the "Splicers"-esque organic hardware

So I'm not sure what you could do with Organic Bionics that hasn't been done already.

Add more hops and fruit flavors.

I didn't see anybody mention the Astral plane. That would be a good book.

Fortress Israel

Wow, there are so many good ideas in this thread. I see some of them have become a reality, and I hope more do as well. I think that Palladium is back on track again with the addition of Scott, and the new books getting out on time. The books are phenomenally well written, and I can't wait to see more.

It makes me happy to see my Hobby with new and vibrant life again.

Please keep up the great work!

Something about Greece and Anatolia. Especialy what happened to Istanbul. This city had been important for more than a millenia because of the location, wvy should this change in Rifts?

I always had the idea that some skyskrapers on both sides of the Bosporous fell into each other creating a MDC arch and survivors had build on top of it as it was easily defendable and made out of MDC materials. As time passed more and more layers were added on top of each other in a chaotic manner (think Kowloon Walled City) and today it is a fortress extracting tolls from anyone trying to pass through or under it. Its main defense is not its armament but that any serilus attack will likely cause it to come crashing down which would make it lose its value. The people there are constantly patching the support beams which have reached its limit, even for MDC materials while smugglers are leading people through the chaotic and undocumented mess of the lower levels sometimes literaly cutting their way through.

Ixal wrote:Something about Greece and Anatolia. Especialy what happened to Istanbul. This city had been important for more than a millenia because of the location, wvy should this change in Rifts?

I always had the idea that some skyskrapers on both sides of the Bosporous fell into each other creating a MDC arch and survivors had build on top of it as it was easily defendable and made out of MDC materials. As time passed more and more layers were added on top of each other in a chaotic manner (think Kowloon Walled City) and today it is a fortress extracting tolls from anyone trying to pass through or under it. Its main defense is not its armament but that any serilus attack will likely cause it to come crashing down which would make it lose its value. The people there are constantly patching the support beams which have reached its limit, even for MDC materials while smugglers are leading people through the chaotic and undocumented mess of the lower levels sometimes literaly cutting their way through.

Man, talk about your height limit for ships passing underneath....

I've had an Adventure Path rattling around in my head for a while that mirrors the plot/development of the Juicer Uprising book. It's Nxla vs. Lord of the Deep (yes, it was inspired by that thread here) and rocks all around the north and middle Atlantic.

Key elements include an amphibious juicer conversion involving nanosurgeons and bioware augmentation, new psychic fluff and new/revisited psi-tech (be nice to consolidate the random psychic stuff that's spread out across creation, there's a psi-tech gun in Lone Star that I don't think EVER got an explanation of how it isn't just Techno-wizardry) and at least one evil AI. The end goal is to kill (or at least semi-kill) both evil gods and ends with various dropped hints of new villains.

Maybe a book for the Arctic Circle covering Scandinavia, Greenland, Iceland, Alaska, the coldest bits of Russia and Canada, and of course Svalbard Island. I've been kicking around the idea for a seed vault/Svalbard article for a while now, maybe I just need to get it submitted.

escargotini wrote:Maybe a book for the Arctic Circle covering Scandinavia, Greenland, Iceland, Alaska, the coldest bits of Russia and Canada, and of course Svalbard Island. I've been kicking around the idea for a seed vault/Svalbard article for a while now, maybe I just need to get it submitted.

Scandinavia is in the works. it is just going a little slow. Russia and Canada already have books. (the canada one even covers alaska)

Everything west of the eastern edge of the Rockies. WITHOUT any huge Earth-shaking factions or writing the whole area off as "Monster infested wilderness huh huh huh".

Rifts Antarctica

Who knows what the Golden Age of science did to this land... it would be a great place to test out many new technologies for places like the Moon and Mars... and even become a tourist attraction for many people who see this relatively unexplored continent as an opportunity. There are even rumors and conspiracy theories of aliens and fallen governments establishing bases here that could have hidden civilizations even in this frozen wasteland.

Then there are the changes the continent could have undergone with the Great Cataclysm. If the rest of the world has become an alien landscape that blends Earth and extraterrestrial plants and animals... then Antarctica is almost a blank slate with what is possible. We could even have much of the continent being similar to Marvel's Savage Land... with the continent's ley lines creating vastly different zones that normally wouldn't exist side by side (surrounded by miles of ice ringed mountains that intimidate casual travelers from exploring the interior). If the Splugorth were able to take control of Atlantis when that continent was uninhabited... who knows what forces have laid claim to this one too.

Rifts West Coast

We know nearly nothing of what lies beyond the Rocky Mountains (which according to the books are even larger than they are in our world... transformed during the Great Cataclysm into a massive barrier of stone). The only thing we do know is that the Cyber-Centaur city of Ixion lays beyond them in the old Canadian Empire province of British Columbia and that it is rumored that a Cyber-Knight monastery is hidden in the mountains somewhere. That still leaves a massive area from Alaska to Baja California to explore... including some of the most massive forests on the continent. Does this massive mountain range contain some great evil from spreading to the interior of North America... or protect the civilizations on the other side from the chaos that has spread across the rest of North America? Only a few brave individuals might find out.

I know they were looking into/working on a rifts antarctica a while back. So I think they had some submission on that and their lil blurbs sounded interesting.


Really though I just want a lazlo world book.

"Death of the Prosseks: A Comedy"
No seriously; I want the Prossek boys dead in the most embarressing and implausible way possible...just the like that waste of dead of tree 'The Siege of Tolkeen' final book.

I'm thinking death by plasma grenade enema for Karl, and choking on own vomit for Joseph.

I have read some really good ideas on here. Of them my favorites are rifts hollow earth, rifts mars, rifts more on the republicans, rifts counter earth i think it was, and islands in the pacific.

Me personally I want rifts
-Australia 2 and 3 we need more road warrior like stuff. all the time.
-Lazlo, new lazlo and chillicoth
-more on the cs farms
-chi-town and its levels (ive just been kind of ripping off that first planet you crash on in star wars kotor for original xbox as inspiration for this place)
-rifts the new gulf coast (basically more dinosaur swamp stuff)
-I would really like a rifts book on space stations around rifts earth and maybe long range ships that have no idea what happened all those years ago. I mean in the golden age mankind must have been space-faring. I just felt that mutants in orbit book didnt do it justice.
-I would really like a book that is what I thought the nowhere book was when I first read the title. Not so much a world book for anywhere specific but a book on building minor kingdoms or towns out in middle of nowhere. A book focused on say residents of a farm and what is needed to survive out there with no government to back them up with a d-bee creation table and things like that.
-Ive been tinkering with the idea of a town or a city that is a place where unlucky members from other palladium titles have landed in rifts and some of them have build this amalgamation town based on their collected knowledge from their homes.
The other rifts things would be a dimension book not world books

DhAkael wrote:"Death of the Prosseks: A Comedy"
No seriously; I want the Prossek boys dead in the most embarressing and implausible way possible...just the like that waste of dead of tree 'The Siege of Tolkeen' final book.

I'm thinking death by plasma grenade enema for Karl, and choking on own vomit for Joseph.

While I don't have a deep hate for the CS, they are my second favorite villain after the random creature crawling out of a Rift, I have always wondered what the CS would become if the Proseks fell and Bradford from Lonestar took over. Genetically modified human super soldier, Dee-bee experimentation labs that would make Invid Genesis pits look like a day care center. It would be whole new level of bad.