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Killer Cyborg wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:How many vehicles did they have to fit 400,000 troops?

Depends on the vehicle.
A single Mark V will hold "20 grunts and 6 SAMAS".
Loaded up fully, we could stretch things where on would hold 40 people.
Then you'd only need 10,000 of them.

Plus another 5000 to hold all of the food supplies.

grandmaster z0b wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:How many vehicles did they have to fit 400,000 troops?

Depends on the vehicle.
A single Mark V will hold "20 grunts and 6 SAMAS".
Loaded up fully, we could stretch things where on would hold 40 people.
Then you'd only need 10,000 of them.

Plus another 5000 to hold all of the food supplies.

grandmaster z0b wrote:Your talking about Xiticix expanding their borders, not a large scale army invading their borders. That's completey different.

Yes...so why do people keep bring ing it up by using it as an example of where the Xiticix shoot "unarmed people" thus showing their aggression and tendency to destroy everything that moves?

So...either it doesn't "count", meaning it is not necessarily true wrt an army, or it does...meaning the example showing Xiticix not attacking large settlements for months should be applicable.

I could go either way.

I want to know how they were able to fit 400 000 soldiers into vehicles, how many vehicles did they have?

I'd say many walked. The speed was kept around walking pace, and thus it would have been possible to rotate shifts riding aboard vehicles.

EJL

cornholioprime wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:How many vehicles did they have to fit 400,000 troops?

Depends on the vehicle.
A single Mark V will hold "20 grunts and 6 SAMAS".
Loaded up fully, we could stretch things where on would hold 40 people.
Then you'd only need 10,000 of them.

Plus another 5000 to hold all of the food supplies.

I hope you realise I wasn't being serious.

Killer Cyborg wrote:-According to XI, Holmes' men would have been attacked at a 2:1 ratio, and they easily would have had the numbers for this.

Holmes was attacked. The exact numbers, AFAIK, aren't given. Only that his forces were being slowly picked apart.

According to XI, anybody stopping within xiticix territory is seen as a threat or a challenge, and will be attacked by a squadron of Warrior. "Once the battle is begun, there is no room for explanations, negotiations or apologies, only the battle to the death.

Holmes didn't stop...or at least, not for more than few minutes at a time.

Say...long enough to switch drivers/pilots, and the infatry to rotate on and off the vehicles?

XI describes Xiticix as attacking any group of 8 or more humans or animals who are in Xiticix Territory, killing them regardless of surrender, flight, or pacifism.

Not quite..it says it sees such groups as an intruder to be destroyed. Which fits in with your view.

Yet it also says the Xiticix are usually content to drive them away...so the actual "Being destroyed" part seems to be negotiable. And it also says the Xiticix do not kill without need. And they would not need to kill someone who they believe is non-threatening or not challenging them.

So...which part of WB23 is right and which is wrong? If they do attack with an intention to destroy everyone in the group, regardless of cost or need as you say, then the comments stating that they are willing to drive people away, or kill only in need are wrong. If the comments stating that they kill only in need or are prepared to drive intruders away are correct...then the parts about seekign destruction is wrong.

Or at least, the passage doesn't give the whole story.

It also leaves open the question...what if halfway through the fight, the Xiticix lose whatever reason they had to fight? Do they continue to the death? Or not? Knowing that individual Xiticix will fight to the death, even crossing the hivelands border while those who watch and wait do not follow, it seems arguable that if they lose their reason to fight, only those already engaged will continue.

To me, that sounds similar to what happened to Holmes...

Further, it also doesn't address what happens with huge groups. If there are two levels of escalation...why not three? Or four? Why not a different response at 100? Or 500? Or 400,000?

The contradiction is that IF all of this information is correct (and it should be; it's official text written by the game's creator)

It should be, yes. In my experience, that's often not the case...something always seems to be missed or overlooked. This aspect isn't, IMO, one of those cases.

, then Holmes and his men should have been killed by a swarm of xiticix 2x their own numbers.
That's the contradiction. They would not have lasted 72 minutes without fighting back, much less 72 hours.

We don't know how many did attack. Nor does WB23 give any indication that the swarm of 2x their numbers attacks at the same time. SoT tells us it was a slow process. Continuing, low level warfare. Not a mass assault.

You keep getting hung up on the "xiticix don't kill without need" part of the text, but you're ignoring the clear definition of what they define as "need". They feel the "need" to kill anything that makes them feel threatened.

And when they become convinced that Holmes wasn't a threat?

The presense of a large army of known enemies would make the bugs feel threatened, which means that they would attack.

They weren't known enemies. That was part of Tolkeens plan. To burn the CS armour into their minds and make them rivals.

EJL

Does anyone even understand how massive a 400 000 man army is? Do some research on troop numbers please. It's virtually the entire Vietcon army, it's the same amount of troops as Napoleon had to invade Russia.

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:-According to XI, Holmes' men would have been attacked at a 2:1 ratio, and they easily would have had the numbers for this.

Holmes was attacked. The exact numbers, AFAIK, aren't given. Only that his forces were being slowly picked apart.

People have cited numbers in the low hundreds of thousands.
Which is contradictory to what XI says.

According to XI, anybody stopping within xiticix territory is seen as a threat or a challenge, and will be attacked by a squadron of Warrior. "Once the battle is begun, there is no room for explanations, negotiations or apologies, only the battle to the death.

Holmes didn't stop...or at least, not for more than few minutes at a time.

Which means that everybody had to be in (or on) vehicles.
Which means that they'd need over 10,000 vehicles.
Did they have that many?

Say...long enough to switch drivers/pilots, and the infatry to rotate on and off the vehicles?

Unless the vehicle was a skycycle, I don't see why it would be necessary to stop to switch pilots. If they were in APCs, then the driver could switch out while moving if necessary.

XI describes Xiticix as attacking any group of 8 or more humans or animals who are in Xiticix Territory, killing them regardless of surrender, flight, or pacifism.

Not quite..it says it sees such groups as an intruder to be destroyed. Which fits in with your view.

"Against small groups of intruders (less than 20), the xiticix dispatch a squadron... This squad will fight to the death or until all interlopers are destroyed! If the intruders try to flee, the Xiticix Warriors will pursue and continue to attack with the intent of killing all of the intruders."

This passage is followed by the passage describing more xiticix showing up and hovering around watching, with few helping out, but this is for small groups.

"Large groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm of Warriors with two Xiticix for every one invader..." instead of a single squad of 2d6 Warriors.

Yet it also says the Xiticix are usually content to drive them away...

Where?

so the actual "Being destroyed" part seems to be negotiable. And it also says the Xiticix do not kill without need. And they would not need to kill someone who they believe is non-threatening or not challenging them.

Actually, the book says that Xiticix will destroy intruders that draw attention to themselves. Even groups of less than 8 are likely to be attacked if they have a large or loud vehicle, or otherwise fail to "keep a low profile".
There is no way for 400,000 people in vehicles to keep a low profile.

So...which part of WB23 is right and which is wrong? If they do attack with an intention to destroy everyone in the group, regardless of cost or need as you say, then the comments stating that they are willing to drive people away, or kill only in need are wrong. If the comments stating that they kill only in need or are prepared to drive intruders away are correct...then the parts about seekign destruction is wrong.

Not at all.
The Xiticix only kill when they "need" to, but they feel that need any time they feel threatened. If they feel threatened, then they swarm in with overwhelming odds and kill everybody, even if the intruders try to flee.

It also leaves open the question...what if halfway through the fight, the Xiticix lose whatever reason they had to fight? Do they continue to the death? Or not? Knowing that individual Xiticix will fight to the death, even crossing the hivelands border while those who watch and wait do not follow, it seems arguable that if they lose their reason to fight, only those already engaged will continue.

Quite true.

To me, that sounds similar to what happened to Holmes...

It's not, though.
Or rather, it shouldn't have been, since Holmes and his men should have been destroyed as intruders, swarmed by a million xiticix or so.

Further, it also doesn't address what happens with huge groups. If there are two levels of escalation...why not three? Or four? Why not a different response at 100? Or 500? Or 400,000?

Why would there be, unless the bugs didn't have the numbers for the 2:1 odds?

Nor does WB23 give any indication that the swarm of 2x their numbers attacks at the same time.

Yes, it does.
"Against small groups of intruders (less than 20), the Xiticix dispatch a squadron of 2d6 flying warriors."
"Large groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm..."

They all attack at once, in a swarm, just like the smaller squad of 2d6 attack at once.

SoT tells us it was a slow process. Continuing, low level warfare. Not a mass assault.

Which is the conflict.

You keep getting hung up on the "xiticix don't kill without need" part of the text, but you're ignoring the clear definition of what they define as "need". They feel the "need" to kill anything that makes them feel threatened.

And when they become convinced that Holmes wasn't a threat?

He'd have been long dead.

The presense of a large army of known enemies would make the bugs feel threatened, which means that they would attack.

They weren't known enemies. That was part of Tolkeens plan. To burn the CS armour into their minds and make them rivals.

EJL

The CS have attacked Xiticix before, especially at the Duluth Hive, which was once attacked at least three Skull Walkers, scores of ground troops, and at least one Death's Head (Rifts Adventure Book, p. 16), reducing dozens of towers to rubble and killing a heck of a lot of xiticix.

Nxla666 wrote:As for raindrops, Minnesotta is the "Land of 10,000 Lakes" where is the trouble finding water?

Try clustering 300k post-battle troops in front of a lake and getting water into them in any reasonable period of time.

Try doing it without having them spotted (for a year or more!) by anyone who is scouting the area.

Like, say, wild psi-stalkers. Who talk to Wilderness Scouts. Who talk to Tolkeen.

As they moved from place to place, it would be quite impossible to hide their passage. (A giant trail of ruts in the dirt that would last through more than one rain storm.)

Nxla666 wrote:Food is a different thing all together, though ancient armies managed to forage fairly well for themselves, or are you saying they didnt need as much food.

Ancient armies didn't field 300k/400k soldiers.

As I already mentioned, Napolean's armies fed themselves by confiscating all the food they could find, not by hunting.

Napoloean was fielding some of the largest armies the west had ever seen and was operating them for extended periods of times.

Hunting simply did not work.

I'll say it again. You cannot feed 300k soldiers by hunting in the woods.

(Especially not with the mandatory Xiticix raiding swarms coming after them . . . oops, I guess the raiding swarms are only mandatory some of the time.)

Killer Cyborg wrote:People have cited numbers in the low hundreds of thousands.
Which is contradictory to what XI says.

Maybe. I did a quick search in SoT5 and 6 and I coudln't find any figures.

As it is, you're assuming the Xiticix will treat a group of 400,000 the same way they'll treat a group of 20. While WB23 doesn't elaborate on larger groups, it doesn't deny a different response.

Which means that everybody had to be in (or on) vehicles.
Which means that they'd need over 10,000 vehicles.
Did they have that many?

Well....not if they kept at a walkiing pace. Which seems to be the case. 10mph at most.

Unless the vehicle was a skycycle, I don't see why it would be necessary to stop to switch pilots. If they were in APCs, then the driver could switch out while moving if necessary.

Robot vehicles? It's also easier to climb up onto the outside of a vehicle if its stopped.

Where?

Same page.

Not at all.
The Xiticix only kill when they "need" to, but they feel that need any time they feel threatened. If they feel threatened, then they swarm in with overwhelming odds and kill everybody, even if the intruders try to flee.

A theory which contradicts several elements in WB23.

It's not, though.
Or rather, it shouldn't have been, since Holmes and his men should have been destroyed as intruders, swarmed by a million xiticix or so.

Which is the point...WB23 shows that Xiticix won't start fighting if their aim has been achieved. Groups leaving their territory are usually left alone. Retreat is alos acceptable.

So...where does WB23 cover what happens if the Xiticix need to destroy a threat is removed half way through a fight?

Why would there be, unless the bugs didn't have the numbers for the 2:1 odds?

Why not the same response for groups of 8-19? Or groups less than 8? We know of three different responses depending on group size. And they have a different response to settlements they annex. Why not more?

Yes, it does.

No..it doesn't. It sizes larger groups bring on a larger swarm. It says nothign aout how that swarm actually fights. The implication is that it's the same way...but that's not a certainty.

Which is the conflict.

Only if you assume that the tactics they use when fighting small groups apply when they are fighting huge groups, and onyl if you also assume the primary goal of the Xiticix in such a situation is to destroy the threat rather than nullify it. As it is, it does say that hit and run tactics are used by the Xiticix, and that some of the higher forms are fair tacticians. While there is a reliance on swarming, it isn't the only tactic they use.

This fact alone, taken from WB23, shows that there need not have been a mass swarm attack, and that there are additional responses to threats other than those shown on page 10-11.

That in turn means the response shown by the Xiticix is possible, is in keeping with both SoT5 and WB23 and thus neither contradicts each other.

He'd have been long dead.

Neatly avoiding the question....what if it had taken an hour? What would the Xiticix have done?

The CS have attacked Xiticix before, especially at the Duluth Hive, which was once attacked at least three Skull Walkers, scores of ground troops, and at least one Death's Head (Rifts Adventure Book, p. 16), reducing dozens of towers to rubble and killing a heck of a lot of xiticix.

Yes...and the CS still weren't regarded as "rivals".

EJL

movement is key

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The cows still don't fight back. They still try to run. The bugs still kill them.

movement is key

like any predator, you run, they chase , and the game is on and you die


the entire past encounters were they wearing the old cs armor or new cs armor

Hey Killer!!!

Notice how tenakafurey conveniently avoided answering the quote which you found.

To wit:

Killer Cyborg, repeating a relevant passage, wrote:"Against small groups of intruders (less than 20), the xiticix dispatch a squadron... This squad will fight to the death or until all interlopers are destroyed! If the intruders try to flee, the Xiticix Warriors will pursue and continue to attack with the intent of killing all of the intruders."

This ought to be good, watching him try to expalin away this one......

My guess is that he'll say that unarmed Cattle and fleeing Citizens constitute "interlopers," but that Whole Field Armies coming into the HiveSpace aren't.

cornholioprime wrote:Hey Killer!!!

Notice how tenakafurey conveniently avoided answering the quote which you found.

To wit:

Killer Cyborg, repeating a relevant passage, wrote:"Against small groups of intruders (less than 20), the xiticix dispatch a squadron... This squad will fight to the death or until all interlopers are destroyed! If the intruders try to flee, the Xiticix Warriors will pursue and continue to attack with the intent of killing all of the intruders."

This ought to be good, watching him try to expalin away this one......

My guess is that he'll say that unarmed Cattle and fleeing Citizens constitute "interlopers," but that Whole Field Armies coming into the HiveSpace aren't.

Or some sillyness about how walking away slowly isn't fleeing...

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:People have cited numbers in the low hundreds of thousands.
Which is contradictory to what XI says.

Maybe. I did a quick search in SoT5 and 6 and I coudln't find any figures.

As it is, you're assuming the Xiticix will treat a group of 400,000 the same way they'll treat a group of 20. While WB23 doesn't elaborate on larger groups, it doesn't deny a different response.

Lack of denial isn't important.
What it says is "groups of 20 or more", and no matter how much higher than 20 you get, it's still "more than 20" and would officially elicit the same responce according to XI.

Which means that everybody had to be in (or on) vehicles.
Which means that they'd need over 10,000 vehicles.
Did they have that many?

Well....not if they kept at a walkiing pace. Which seems to be the case. 10mph at most.

Average walking pace is more like 5mph, not including rugged terrain.
In Rifts terms, a character with the Forced March skill can travel at 60% of their Speed attribute (never less than Speed of .
Of course, Forced March isn't an automatic OCC skill for Deadboys. They have to take it as one of their other skills.
Apparently the CS isn't big on marching.

Unless the vehicle was a skycycle, I don't see why it would be necessary to stop to switch pilots. If they were in APCs, then the driver could switch out while moving if necessary.

Robot vehicles? It's also easier to climb up onto the outside of a vehicle if its stopped.[/quote]

I suppose, but in Spider Skull Walkers you could still swap out drivers without much problem. Possibly in other bots as well, depending on how things are set up. If there's a co-pilot, he might well be able to drive the thing while the pilot sleeps and vice versa.

Where?

Same page.

What line?

Not at all.
The Xiticix only kill when they "need" to, but they feel that need any time they feel threatened. If they feel threatened, then they swarm in with overwhelming odds and kill everybody, even if the intruders try to flee.

A theory which contradicts several elements in WB23.

Not that I've noticed.

It's not, though.
Or rather, it shouldn't have been, since Holmes and his men should have been destroyed as intruders, swarmed by a million xiticix or so.

Which is the point...WB23 shows that Xiticix won't start fighting if their aim has been achieved. Groups leaving their territory are usually left alone. Retreat is also acceptable.

Only once they've left Xiticix territory. Until then, the bugs keep attacking.

So...where does WB23 cover what happens if the Xiticix need to destroy a threat is removed half way through a fight?

It doesn't, but it's still irrelevent.
Holmes and his crew would have been destroyed before it became an issue.

Why would there be, unless the bugs didn't have the numbers for the 2:1 odds?

Why not the same response for groups of 8-19? Or groups less than 8? We know of three different responses depending on group size. And they have a different response to settlements they annex. Why not more?

Why would they have more?

It sizes larger groups bring on a larger swarm. It says nothign aout how that swarm actually fights. The implication is that it's the same way...but that's not a certainty.

There's nothing to indicate otherwise.

Which is the conflict.

Only if you assume that the tactics they use when fighting small groups apply when they are fighting huge groups,

Which is easily and safely assumed from the descriptions in XI.

and onyl if you also assume the primary goal of the Xiticix in such a situation is to destroy the threat rather than nullify it.

Which it is. The book says "destroy" specifically.

As it is, it does say that hit and run tactics are used by the Xiticix, and that some of the higher forms are fair tacticians. While there is a reliance on swarming, it isn't the only tactic they use.

True, but it's a staple. They use other tactics as needed, and they wouldn't need any other tactics in this situation.
Tactics would come into play when facing superior numbers or fortified targets.

This fact alone, taken from WB23, shows that there need not have been a mass swarm attack, and that there are additional responses to threats other than those shown on page 10-11.

That in turn means the response shown by the Xiticix is possible, is in keeping with both SoT5 and WB23 and thus neither contradicts each other.

Disagreed.

He'd have been long dead.

Neatly avoiding the question....what if it had taken an hour? What would the Xiticix have done?

What if what had taken an hour? Killing Holmes and his men?

The CS have attacked Xiticix before, especially at the Duluth Hive, which was once attacked at least three Skull Walkers, scores of ground troops, and at least one Death's Head (Rifts Adventure Book, p. 16), reducing dozens of towers to rubble and killing a heck of a lot of xiticix.

Yes...and the CS still weren't regarded as "rivals".

EJL

Explain.

Mech-Viper wrote:movement is key

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The cows still don't fight back. They still try to run. The bugs still kill them.

movement is key

like any predator, you run, they chase , and the game is on and you die

the entire past encounters were they wearing the old cs armor or new cs armor

That, I'll buy.
As long as they didn't have any Skull Walkers or other familiar vehicles with them.

tenakafurey wrote:Where you say:

"There is an army. It is a threat. We must attack until it is destroyed and so remove the threat."

I say:

"There is an army. It is a threat. We must attack it until the threat is gone."

But the latter is in keeping with WB23s assertion that the Xiticix do not kill without need, [...]

In short, once Holmes proved he and his force wasn't a threat, there was no need to kill them.

What the Xiticix feel is their "need", and what you feel is their "need", are two different things.

They are not humans. They do not evaluate threat-type situations in the way we do.(4)

I refer you to:
(Bold face is my addition except for the first three words, as are the superscripts faked with () characters.)

WB23:XI p.19 wrote:A raiding swarm is sent out after an attack(1) with one of two simple missions: Retaliation(2) or defense of the hive at all costs. Whether that retaliation is justified or the aggressor is known does not matter. Their destructive rage(2) is directed at everything not Xiticix -- humans, D-Bees, cattle, innocent passers-by, ramshackle old huts, small villages, CS patrols, and any sentient being who catches their attention(3). The aliens do not distinguish between humanoids and will lash out at the nearest ones without regards for their innocence or guilt(3). It matters not that humans many have been responsible for instigating an attack (or threat), D-Bees, demons, dragons, and other life forms will pay the prince for invoking their ire. Likewise, quiet, peaceful human and/or D-Bee settlements will suddenly become convenient targets simply because they are there(3).

Raiding swarms pour out of the Hiveland and into the countryside to extract their revenge(2) and to reinforce their borders. Such frenzied raids rarely occur unless there has been some significant disturbance or threat within the boundaries of the Xiticix territory. Retaliatory(2) swarms have no interest in capturing food or taking prisoners. Their goal is to secure their territory, destroy all threats(2), and unleash pure death and destruction. They will rain TK bots down on people and buildings without mercy and with no target preference (other than those who return their aggression with vigor).

First, what constitutes a threat to a Xiticix is not what might or might not constitute a threat to a human.

All alien sentient life is regarded by the Xiticix as their enemies (WB23:XI p.9 col.2). They

(1) Apparently, the Xiticix do not simply ignore the fact that an attack has just occurred.(4) They immediately embark upon a quest to make sure that it doesn't happen again. They will most certainly trail whoever was responsible and will attempt to wipe them out unless it is crystal clear that the attempt will be a failure.

(2) Retaliation, revenge, destructive rage. It seems that the Xiticix feel all these base emotions and paranoid security-related motivations. Beings gripped in destructive rages of revenge and retaliation are not known for their clear thought processes and intelligent evaluations of enemies. Their instincts will rule their actions (WB23:XI p.8 col.2).

(3) Apparently, the Xiticix do kill without "need", at least as we would see it. However, it is fairly clear that when the Xiticix only "feel threatened" (remember, the attack is over and there is no threat at the moment), that they "need" to go out and kill everything on their enemy list or anything that could conceivably be a threat.

(4) The case establishing that the Xiticix would have regarded the army within their territory as a threat has been established based on the information in WB23:XI (p. 11 col.1). I have asserted, and still assert, that marching an army of 400k MD/MDC equipped soldiers and vehicles of war into the Hiveland would in and of itself constitute both a threat and a challenge. The army would be capable of attacking the central hive structures and doing severe damage at any time just due to their huge numbers and available firepower and the Xiticix would feel this in their chitinous exoskeletons every moment the army was within the Hiveland and probably after they departed, too (SAMAS can outrun the Xiticix and so can launch lightning raids that only massed swarms could stop), regardless of how innocent their behavior appeared to be(5). No amount of "pretending" by a force that size could utilize the "ignore us we're just small numbers here" tactics used by scouting squads and a few others.

(5) We have testimony from ex-service personnel indicating their extreme disbelief that an entire army of 400k individuals could all have successfully followed their no lethal attack orders for the entire 72 hour period. I find myself agreeing with this based on what I know of the military. Seeing comrades getting slain or carried off, even just one, would undoubtedly drive some trooper somewhere over the edge to the point where he/she would open fire to protect said comrade. Also given that a large portion of the army's makeup is of Evil alignment personnel, and even more of selfish personnel, and yet further attach the massive D-Bee horror propaganda that the CS unleashes on its citizens, frankly I find it totally unbelievable that numerous incidents of squads opening up to protect one of their comrades (Good alignment warriors protecting their comrades) didn't lead to tens of thousands of soldiers unloading with everything they had. Evil individuals, not caring about anything, and finding themselves about to be carried away would detonate multiple fusion blocks or open fire with their guns at point blank on a Xiticix thorax (like a x3 head-shot, probably). "They all followed Holmes' order and it all went perfectly." Baloney. You can't get 100k people to sing the Star Spangled Banner in sync, much less get the 20-30% (or more) of Evil alignments in your army to sacrifice themselves for anyone other than numero uno. Heck, you'd have mass desertions before going into the Hivelands just from the terror, and more desertions in the middle of the journey. Some of the deserters would ignore the no-fire/kill orders and would start killing Xiticix, and the swarm would not distinguish between deserter and loyalist. Some deserting soldiers would have been taken by the Xiticix swarming the area, but some would have gotten away. Some of those would have been captured by Tolkeen. Then a mass breakdown of discipline from the horror of the situation would follow.

Whatever emerged from the Hiveland would be a wreck, and it would be pursued by raiding swarms. The Xiticix literally wouldn't be able to stop themselves anymore than they could stop themselves from expanding.

---------------------

Remember, as far as the CS was concerned, there were 400,000 dead.

Chi-Town's likely effective population circa PA 107 would be about 7,000,000 in the most optimistic outlook I can think of.

400,000 is 5.7% of Chi-Town's effective population (and 600,000, the rest of the million man army, is 8.5%).

These numbers "sound" small until you compare it to the US.

5.7% of 300 million is 17,100,000 dead.

Hello! Can you imagine ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, FOX, etc. all leading off with, "Today, 17.1 million American soldiers lost their lives in a dastardly ambush! Fortunately, the remaining strength of the US army, 25.5 million is rock steady and ready to go on the offensive to avenge the deaths of their comrades in arms!" The questions and answers would go on for centuries, the President would resign or get dragged from office by a mob, and the majority of Americans would personally know one of the dead. In the CS, of course, there could be no mob to drag Karl out of office, but there would be unpleasant grumbling throughout the tiny empire, and attempting to strangle it would only make it worse. Talk of incompetent leadership would abound. Blaming the magi wouldn't go far, of course the craft magi were going to do something, that's just the evil that magi are, eh?

Duh! Can anyone here seriously stand up and argue that the US army could possibly afford (with a vastly greater wealth, commerce, and industry than is available to the CS) to field 42.6 million soldiers? It is equally true that the the CS could not possibly afford to deploy that large a percentage of its population as a field army (not counting the support forces that would be needed, and not counting all the troops that would be necessary to secure the cities and borders from other enemies).

cornholioprime wrote:Hey Killer!!!

Notice how tenakafurey conveniently avoided answering the quote which you found.

To wit:

Killer Cyborg, repeating a relevant passage, wrote:"Against small groups of intruders (less than 20), the xiticix dispatch a squadron... This squad will fight to the death or until all interlopers are destroyed! If the intruders try to flee, the Xiticix Warriors will pursue and continue to attack with the intent of killing all of the intruders."

This ought to be good, watching him try to expalin away this one......

well hello daisy you decided to come play now but its good you stop trying to be the new doctor doom and went back to yourself


sorry this part of holmes into the hiveland is screwed up

one, there should have been more xiticix on them then what there was

two, even the xiticix need to eat too

third, the whole time table for this out of whack

four, the whole" this is not how they would react" well yes this is how they would react because this is how they reacted.

five,

tenakafurey wrote:In the Buglands a couple of weeks. North of Tolkeen a few months.

72 hours in the Hiveland. North of Tolkeen for a year or more until PA 109 (best guess for the Holmes' Maneuver is PA 108 . . . if PA 107, then the army is two years in thenorth).

tenakafurey wrote:Still wilderness, but definitely more food...especially from the many abandoned towns, villages, farms, etc that dotted the area.

I assume you mean outside of the Hiveland, because there would be none inside of it.

In any event, the area north of the Duluth hive was never densely populated.

You can't feed a shattered army of 300K on the pickings of some villages and farms and hunting for some deer, buffalo, and rabbits. It would be like having a city of 300k run empty on its grocery stores in a very short period. Ugly. Starvation follows.

Not to mention that supernatural monsters are lurking somewhere and will start converging on the the weakened remnants for further attacks (not to mention the Xiticix and their raiding swarms).

----------------------------------------

People keep saying how intelligent the Xiticix are. Here we have a human army, out of supply, shattered, and just sitting there doing nothing for at least a year. I think all five of the Xiticix hives would starting talking to each other, organize an assault, and wipe it out. It would be extremely irritating to them to have it sitting there in the middle of all of them.

yup ex -service says its cant be done and ex-service says it can be done, hmmm two different view points

my viewpoint is that of a ex combat arms, M1 tank crewmember

but they did do it and its canon deal with it

tenakafurey wrote:they usually let competing groups leave.

Can you point to a reference for that (however oblique)?

grandmaster z0b wrote:Huh? How could an army march without stopping? Surely they must sleep or eat at some stage, in any case they did stop;

The implication is that every last one of them were piled into or on vehicles, all of which were nuclear powered, none of which broke down, and there were no terrain obstacles that would have caused a stop in 72 hours of travel through a land without a road while they were under continuous attack.

SoT 5 implies that they really didn't stop. Yeah, right. That makes as little sense as the rest of it.

RainOfSteel wrote:

tenakafurey wrote:In the Buglands a couple of weeks. North of Tolkeen a few months.

72 hours in the Hiveland. North of Tolkeen for a year or more until PA 109 (best guess for the Holmes' Maneuver is PA 108 . . . if PA 107, then the army is two years in thenorth).

tenakafurey wrote:Still wilderness, but definitely more food...especially from the many abandoned towns, villages, farms, etc that dotted the area.

I assume you mean outside of the Hiveland, because there would be none inside of it.

In any event, the area north of the Duluth hive was never densely populated.

You can't feed a shattered army of 300K on the pickings of some villages and farms and hunting for some deer, buffalo, and rabbits. It would be like having a city of 300k run empty on its grocery stores in a very short period. Ugly. Starvation follows.

Not to mention that supernatural monsters are lurking somewhere and will start converging on the the weakened remnants for further attacks (not to mention the Xiticix and their raiding swarms).

----------------------------------------

People keep saying how intelligent the Xiticix are. Here we have a human army, out of supply, shattered, and just sitting there doing nothing for at least a year. I think all five of the Xiticix hives would starting talking to each other, organize an assault, and wipe it out. It would be extremely irritating to them to have it sitting there in the middle of all of them.

out supplied ? where does it say that page please
shattered ? page please, just sitting there doing nothing? page please

if one was being attacked then yes, but something moving thru the area in a non-threating manner , yeah lets all band togethor and attack it

as for the food no ones knows what the supply level was, but i bet holmes restock as soon as the actions of sot 2 were over

Mech-Viper wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:It's possible but again really, really unplausible. I just find it all to be far too contrived.

what the 200 miles a day

The majority of SoT with the Holmes' Maneuver as one of the stand-out contrivances.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:It's possible but again really, really unplausible. I just find it all to be far too contrived.

what the 200 miles a day

The majority of SoT with the Holmes' Maneuver as one of the stand-out contrivances.

yup

Mech-Viper wrote:yup ex -service says its cant be done and ex-service says it can be done, hmmm two different view points

my viewpoint is that of a ex combat arms, M1 tank crewmember

but they did do it and its canon deal with it

You think this is possible with an army of 400 000? Is it all possible or just the marching through the Xiticix hivelands bit?

the question was was It possible for holmes to this, i said yes and even stated time and time again depending on what he had , depending on how well he was supplied before hand, depending on other factors then yes he could.

this is rifts anything and everything is possible

if tolkeen can create an uber army under the watchful eye of the coalition or atlantis is protecting by a spacefleet that no one has even seen even in phase world. then why is it is impossibles for a gerenal to lead his troops thru a hostile land, is it because he is a coalition officer?

grandmaster z0b wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:yup ex -service says its cant be done and ex-service says it can be done, hmmm two different view points

my viewpoint is that of a ex combat arms, M1 tank crewmember

but they did do it and its canon deal with it

You think this is possible with an army of 400 000? Is it all possible or just the marching through the Xiticix hivelands bit?

depends on what he has in terms of vechiles and supplies

darkmax wrote:Wow! Heavy stuffs! Martial skills of cattles?! They have what? The Way of the Cow-Dung. The Techniques of milk shooting.....

Hey, wait. This is Rifts, not Exalted.

Mech-Viper wrote:the question was was It possible for holmes to this, i said yes and even stated time and time again depending on what he had , depending on how well he was supplied before hand, depending on other factors then yes he could.

this is rifts anything and everything is possible

if tolkeen can create an uber army under the watchful eye of the coalition or atlantis is protecting by a spacefleet that no one has even seen even in phase world. then why is it is impossibles for a gerenal to lead his troops thru a hostile land, is it because he is a coalition officer?

For heavens sake it's got nothing to do with him being CS or anything else.

I've said many times it's possible but really implausible, so implausible that I find it hard to believe.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Garbled to the point of incomprehensibility or not, your response doesn't change the fact that the xiticix are shown to kill fleeing opponents who are not fighting back.

And not only that, after any major incursion, the Xiticix will go forth outside their Hiveland and attack and kill anything they find that they classify as an enemy or a potential threat.

Nxla666 wrote:Hmm, just a thought, perhaps KS left the massive gaps in the plot for GMs to fill...no, he wouldnt have done that because apparently everyone needs everything clearly spelled out and ordered to find satisfaction with PB products.

No, I just prefer my PB products to contain statements that support ye ol' suspension of disbelief, as opposed to cracking it wide open.

Killer Cyborg wrote:At least that wouldn't be contradicting established rules and the laws of physics.

(Paraphrased.)

Scott: "You can't mix matter and anti-matter cold. I cannae break the laws of physics, I've got to have thirty minutes!"
Spock: "There is a forumla, but it has never been tested."
Kirk: "If we go up in the biggest nova since the last sun in these parts exploded then we've got to take that on in ten-thousand chance!"

The Holmes' Maneuver was a one in ten-thousand chance (among the other 9,999 chances the CS has gotten breaks on).

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:We're pointing out that the written behavior of Xiticix in XI contradicts their behavior in SoT, and we're pointing out that the lack of food/water would make such a journey impossible.

So…what are the contradictions….?

It's been gone over exhaustively prior to this. Did you miss the earlier posts?

grandmaster z0b wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:the question was was It possible for holmes to this, i said yes and even stated time and time again depending on what he had , depending on how well he was supplied before hand, depending on other factors then yes he could.

this is rifts anything and everything is possible

if tolkeen can create an uber army under the watchful eye of the coalition or atlantis is protecting by a spacefleet that no one has even seen even in phase world. then why is it is impossibles for a gerenal to lead his troops thru a hostile land, is it because he is a coalition officer?

For heavens sake it's got nothing to do with him being CS or anything else.

I've said many times it's possible but really implausible, so implausible that I find it hard to believe.

then we agree its possible for holmes to pull it off. then again i bet in 1865 going into space looked implausible too, planes being flew into the WTC looked implausible to some people until its happened or talking to someone in a town half a world away on a typewriter and TV might look implausible to someone in the 1901.

Nxla666 wrote:Also it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes, never said anything more than that.

As I mentioned before in this topic in and in other prior topics, that isn't what SoT 5 says.

SoT 5 says that 180-250k Xiticix were "seen to take wing".

That's it. Those were the numbers observed from a great distance.

It was not the total amount surrounding Holmes'. That number is not given; but WB23:XI tells us that they will send 2 warriors/enemy solider and 4 or more per bot (and vehicle, by extension), so we do have a way of estimating.

Nxla666 wrote:Since Holmes troops "never" struck back with lethal force then there wasnt a need for Xit reinforcements, so the number remained small.

There! That's one of the absolutely insane parts of the story regarding the Holmes' Maneuver. It is a complete mind-blower of a statement that no soldiers actually opened fire. The order might have been given, but it would never have been universally followed and the bugs don't make distinctions about the reasons people had for launching attacks on them.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:At least that wouldn't be contradicting established rules and the laws of physics.

(Paraphrased.)

Scott: "You can't mix matter and anti-matter cold. I cannae break the laws of physics, I've got to have thirty minutes!"
Spock: "There is a forumla, but it has never been tested."
Kirk: "If we go up in the biggest nova since the last sun in these parts exploded then we've got to take that on in ten-thousand chance!"

The Holmes' Maneuver was a one in ten-thousand chance (among the other 9,999 chances the CS has gotten breaks on).

hey just need that 1 to pull it off

RainOfSteel wrote:

Nxla666 wrote:Hmm, just a thought, perhaps KS left the massive gaps in the plot for GMs to fill...no, he wouldnt have done that because apparently everyone needs everything clearly spelled out and ordered to find satisfaction with PB products.

No, I just prefer my PB products to contain statements that support ye ol' suspension of disbelief, as opposed to cracking it wide open.

I preffer Kevin Siembieda cant come to your game and hold your hand and run the game himself for you, this is something you have to do yourself

grandmaster z0b wrote:How many vehicles did they have to fit 400 000 troops?

Mark V APCs carry 20 soldiers, 4 SAMAS, and 2 hovercycles.

You aren't going to be overloading on SAMAS, but assuming stuffing x2 soldiers by simply cramming them in any which way, that would be 10,000 Mark V APCs (followed by nearly 400 5000-gallon water trucks, among other logistics vehicles).

It's quite simply laughable.

EDIT---------------------------

And yes, I ran across KC's post shortly after posting the above.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nxla666 wrote:Also it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes, never said anything more than that.

Which contradicts the numbers in XI.

Unfortunately Nxla666's cite of SoT 5 isn't valid and so doesn't contradict anything.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Nxla666 wrote:Also it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes, never said anything more than that.

As I mentioned before in this topic in and in other prior topics, that isn't what SoT 5 says.

SoT 5 says that 180-250k Xiticix were "seen to take wing".

That's it. Those were the numbers observed from a great distance.

It was not the total amount surrounding Holmes'. That number is not given; but WB23:XI tells us that they will send 2 warriors/enemy solider and 4 or more per bot (and vehicle, by extension), so we do have a way of estimating.

Nxla666 wrote:Since Holmes troops "never" struck back with lethal force then there wasnt a need for Xit reinforcements, so the number remained small.

There! That's one of the absolutely insane parts of the story regarding the Holmes' Maneuver. It is a complete mind-blower of a statement that no soldiers actually opened fire. The order might have been given, but it would never have been universally followed and the bugs don't make distinctions about the reasons people had for launching attacks on them.

and how did the xiticix know exactly how many troops there were, was there a drive thru thing like the old drive in with a xiticix asking "how many in your group".

simple holmes hide his numbers from the xiticix, that could be a reason why the xiticix numbers were off , gage to a different sized army

not like xiticix is going to do "hmm they is a apc and they normal have 20 troops , 6 samas and a crew of 5"

Killer Cyborg wrote:Which means that everybody had to be in (or on) vehicles.
Which means that they'd need over 10,000 vehicles.
Did they have that many?

Well, the CS does have three million SAMAS suits sitting around . . . why not ten thousand Mark V APCs for an active field army?

Both situations are laughable, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the intent.

Mech-Viper wrote:yup ex -service says its cant be done and ex-service says it can be done, hmmm two different view points

my viewpoint is that of a ex combat arms, M1 tank crewmember

So, your assertion is that not one single person amoung 400,000 would disobey orders in a situation that was terrorizing them and threatening their brothers in arms (vis-a-vis Good individuals)?

Um, I take it you never heard of JAG? People disobey orders for far less important reasons that keeping an insect from hauling you off to become sludge, and there is an entire system of military justice in the US and in every other country do deal with that disobediance.

That includes battlefield disobediance, as well.

I think you are being very unrealistic in your assertions about what the the CS forces (composed of at least 20-30% evil individuals who would not hesitate to disobey orders in a last ditch save-their-own-life type of situation . . . exactly the one they were in) would do when faced with the reality of the Xiticix' actual attacks.

And just to skewer your constant use of "It's canon ha ha " type statements, none of us are saying that it wasn't written in canon. That isn't it at all, as has been repeatedly pointed out, over and over again. It's about the unreality of written canon in regards to this.

Mech-Viper wrote:out supplied ?

The suviving CS army wasn't "out supplied", they were out of supply.

Mech-Viper wrote:where does it say that page please

Page? (Oh, wow, look, I can click up a bunch of those icons too, how pretty.)

They were in the wilderness. The CS thought they were dead. They weren't receiving supplies.

This is why they were out of supply. The situation is blatantly obvious.

Can you please point to a page that say they were receiving supplies?

Mech-Viper wrote:shattered ? page please, just sitting there doing nothing? page please

25% losses = shattered. 72 hours of pure terrorization = shattering. Page? SoT 5, you know the page, you quoted it yourself.

As for sitting there doing nothing? Then what was it there were doing? Page? It was a whole year. A few scouts sent south is still effectively nothing as far as the whole force is concerned.

Their next action was appearing out of the blue through all of Tolkeen's patrols and watches (some of which had miraculously disappeared at precisely the right moment . . . hey, there is one of those contrivances).

Mech-Viper wrote:if one was being attacked then yes, but something moving thru the area in a non-threating manner

There is no such thing as 400k MD/MDC forces being non-threatening.

2 Xiticix per soldier and 4 or more per bot (or, by extension, vehicle) is the known response to any group of 20 or more.

The CS army qualified as "20 or more".

Mech-Viper wrote:as for the food no ones knows what the supply level was, but i bet holmes restock as soon as the actions of sot 2 were over

Restock? In the middle of the wilderness with no contact with anyone (apparently) for a year? From what? Magic? Because I've already painstakingly gone over how it would be totally impossible to feed 300k troops by scavenging in the wild for more than a few days (they would have to constantly move to new regions, and after a year, the trail of devastation would be pretty be blindingly obvious).

Mech-Viper wrote:I preffer Kevin Siembieda cant come to your game and hold your hand and run the game himself for you, this is something you have to do yourself

You prefer that KS can't come to my games and hold my hand? Good, because I also prefer this.

In any event, reading coherent milieu material and running games are not equivalent situations, not even remotely.

Mech-Viper wrote:and how did the xiticix know exactly how many troops there were, was there a drive thru thing like the old drive in with a xiticix asking "how many in your group".

Smell.

The Xiticix sense of smell is twice as good as the best Dog Boys. They could easily identify every individual's odors coming out of the a/c exhausts.

EDIT------------------------

Not to mention that they are sufficiently intelligent to realize what an APC is and to estimate the numbers and then bring along some extra Xit-buds for help just because it is a general and massive incursion of sufficient firepower to do massive damage to the central hive structures at a moments notice regardless of how innocuous the force might otherwise appear to be . . . right up until some terrorized soldier fires a tank canon at a Xiticix Hunter.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:yup ex -service says its cant be done and ex-service says it can be done, hmmm two different view points

my viewpoint is that of a ex combat arms, M1 tank crewmember

So, your assertion is that not one single person amoung 400,000 would disobey orders in a situation that was terrorizing them and threatening their brothers in arms (vis-a-vis Good individuals)?

Um, I take it you never heard of JAG? People disobey orders for far less important reasons that keeping an insect from hauling you off to become sludge, and there is an entire system of military justice in the US and in every other country do deal with that disobediance.

That includes battlefield disobediance, as well.

I think you are being very unrealistic in your assertions about what the the CS forces (composed of at least 20-30% evil individuals who would not hesitate to disobey orders in a last ditch save-their-own-life type of situation . . . exactly the one they were in).

And just to skewer your constant use of "It's canon ha ha " type statements, none of us are saying that it wasn't written in canon. That isn't it at all, as has been repeatedly pointed out, over and over again. It's about the unreality of written canon in regards to this.

like i said before holmes losed 25% of troops i never said holmes losed troops because the xiticix killed 25%
its is safe to say some of the ones got killed lost their cool and got a slug in the head.

Now here is my question to you all,
1 . what type of Officers and Senior NCO's do you think holmes would have serving under him


my answer

I expect the best and I give the best. Here's the beer. Here's the entertainment. Now have fun. That's an order.
This is for all you new people: I only have one rule. Everyone fights. No one quits. You don't do your job, I'll shoot you myself. You get me?

Now this strike me as something holmes would say, remember the infantry of the Coalition love him(just call him Captian Coalition and give that man a shield with the death head insignia on it)

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:and how did the xiticix know exactly how many troops there were, was there a drive thru thing like the old drive in with a xiticix asking "how many in your group".

Smell.

The Xiticix sense of smell is twice as good as the best Dog Boys. They could easily identify every individual's odors coming out of the a/c exhausts.

EDIT------------------------

Not to mention that they are sufficiently intelligent to realize what an APC is and to estimate the numbers and then bring along some extra Xit-buds for help just because it is a general and massive incursion of sufficient firepower to do massive damage to the central hive structures at a moments notice regardless of how innocuous the force might otherwise appear to be . . . right up until some terrorized soldier fires a tank canon at a Xiticix Hunter.

i'm bet as long as people were still in body armor and the armor is still contained they would be not increase in numbers as long as the compartment is sealed, they dont know how many is in there. but now you have smoke going off maybe a few tear gas grenades too to mess with sense of smell

How did the Xiticix know the number of troops?

It's almost the entire population of Atlanta, Georgia. It's more people than Minneapolis City Minnesota, Miami Florida, Oakland CA, Honolulu and Tulsa.

Somehow I think they would notice and have a fairly good idea of rough numbers.

Agreed the Xiticix aren't just a bunch of angry wasps, they are intelligent tactical thinking (although very alien) beings that have strategies and manuevers. I mean come on an army of 400,000 walking through your territory? If I was a Xiticix queen I would see this as a golden opportunity to feed my entire Hive for a long, long time to see it expand to a massive scale.

yup cant hide troops inside vechile from the all see bugs,


yeah i suppose to believe tolkeen destory every aircraft in holmes command, but no beleive he could make a trip thru bug country, maybe one of the reason that was a low number of bugs maybe someone killed them, but no there is noone esle operating in the area, heaven forbid that. psi stalker would told the tolkeen(who have demons and other supernatural running around the city) yeah right, would you trust them to send a couple soldiers out reinforced with demons or anything esle the psi stalker would the old" look lunch "bit on

but hey holmes gamble and hit the jackpot, believe or not, it happens in vegas all the time

yeah as long as they are moving away from my entire hive, i'll be happy to have some of my troops to keep an eye on them and send scouts to check the surround hiveland and close the border down quick. not like the Xiticix has access to the coalition census reports that 400k might be a ploy to draw a lot number of my troops on to them and them they hit the hives with a more powerful force. if i was looking to take a rival that how i would do it.