Forums of the Megaverse®

rtsurfer wrote:Scott's Beta does have a head, although it seems to have a very limited range of motion, which it doesn't always seem to deploy and sometimes isn't very visible even when out in the animation. Don't know about the other Betas & Shadow Betas as none are ever seen onscreen in battloid mode.

O.o what head? there is the pod on top but that's not a head.....

jaymz wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:Scott's Beta does have a head, although it seems to have a very limited range of motion, which it doesn't always seem to deploy and sometimes isn't very visible even when out in the animation. Don't know about the other Betas & Shadow Betas as none are ever seen onscreen in battloid mode.

O.o what head? there is the pod on top but that's not a head.....

What is the difference between a pod and a head? Looks like a head to me.

Note: I added a comment to my last post about the destroids. Guess the Tomahawk/Excalibur's head is a pod as well?

rtsurfer wrote:

jaymz wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:Scott's Beta does have a head, although it seems to have a very limited range of motion, which it doesn't always seem to deploy and sometimes isn't very visible even when out in the animation. Don't know about the other Betas & Shadow Betas as none are ever seen onscreen in battloid mode.

O.o what head? there is the pod on top but that's not a head.....

What is the difference between a pod and a head? Looks like a head to me.

Note: I added a comment to my last post about the destroids. Guess the Tomahawk/Excalibur's head is a pod as well?

Beta - a sensor pod a head does not make. A head is a head. The Alpha has a head. The VF-1 has a head, the VHT has a head. A sensor pod ala the beta is not a head.

And no the cockpit of the Tomahawk is IN the torso....how is that a head? A canopy on the torso now constitutes a head as well?

Are we now going to say the the sensor eye/pod on Invid mecha are now heads too?

jaymz wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:

jaymz wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:Scott's Beta does have a head, although it seems to have a very limited range of motion, which it doesn't always seem to deploy and sometimes isn't very visible even when out in the animation. Don't know about the other Betas & Shadow Betas as none are ever seen onscreen in battloid mode.

O.o what head? there is the pod on top but that's not a head.....

What is the difference between a pod and a head? Looks like a head to me.

Note: I added a comment to my last post about the destroids. Guess the Tomahawk/Excalibur's head is a pod as well?

Beta - a sensor pod a head does not make. A head is a head. The Alpha has a head. The VF-1 has a head, the VHT has a head. A sensor pod ala the beta is not a head.

And no the cockpit of the Tomahawk is IN the torso....how is that a head? A canopy on the torso now constitutes a head as well?

Are we now going to say the the sensor eye/pod on Invid mecha are now heads too?

That looks to me like a head on the Beta. There's even a forced perspective shot where it looks even more like a typical head.
The one on the Tomahawk/Excalibur looks to me like even more of a head.

What exactly does the location of the cockpit have to do with whether a mecha has a head or not? I don't recall any of Robotech's mecha having their cockpit in its head.

The Malar and RCB's do have heads, the other Invid have torso/heads with eyes/sensors mounted on them.

rtsurfer wrote:

jaymz wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:

jaymz wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:Scott's Beta does have a head, although it seems to have a very limited range of motion, which it doesn't always seem to deploy and sometimes isn't very visible even when out in the animation. Don't know about the other Betas & Shadow Betas as none are ever seen onscreen in battloid mode.

O.o what head? there is the pod on top but that's not a head.....

What is the difference between a pod and a head? Looks like a head to me.

Note: I added a comment to my last post about the destroids. Guess the Tomahawk/Excalibur's head is a pod as well?

Beta - a sensor pod a head does not make. A head is a head. The Alpha has a head. The VF-1 has a head, the VHT has a head. A sensor pod ala the beta is not a head.

And no the cockpit of the Tomahawk is IN the torso....how is that a head? A canopy on the torso now constitutes a head as well?

Are we now going to say the the sensor eye/pod on Invid mecha are now heads too?

That looks to me like a head on the Beta. There's even a forced perspective shot where it looks even more like a typical head.
The one on the Tomahawk/Excalibur looks to me like even more of a head.

What exactly does the location of the cockpit have to do with whether a mecha has a head or not? I don't recall any of Robotech's mecha having their cockpit in its head.

The Malar and RCB's do have heads, the other Invid have torso/heads with eyes/sensors mounted on them.

Well the RPG does not list a head on the Tomahawk and the "head" on the Beta could be exactly what the "head" on the Tomahawk is. A canopy.

According to the RPG, the only place that actually gives any type even semi-official listing of locations do not give the Invid heads except for the RCB, Overlord and Soldier.

We aren't going to agree so arguing about it is pointless.

Yeah, but I'm going to side with those looking like (and thus being) heads, whatever the RPG calls them.

dataweaver wrote:Yeah, but I'm going to side with those looking like (and thus being) heads, whatever the RPG calls them.

And you are welcome to do so DW. Doesn't mean I have to agree with you though

A head to me is what the VF-1, VHT-1, Alpha, AGACS, SC Battloids, Bioroids, Male Power Armour, RCB, Overlord and Invid Soldier have. Anything else is not a head but a pod or crew compartment canopy etc.

That's my position and I am sticking to it.

rtsurfer wrote:What moron loaded software without customizing its install for the new equipment, especially when people's lives were involved?

Morons who didn't do proper testing and had software that didn't give proper feedback on the previous equipment with hardware safeties to let you know they'd been triggered and required people proficient in it to hastily do the improper sequence in the time required to make it active and too arrogant to think they could have built wrong. This kind of thing happens all the time.

When I worked in the automotive testing industry I saw stuff that got into your cars that never got its proper software test until the last test when someone finally listened to me when I told them there was a problem and a software engineer checked it out. Another I'd heard where an engineer had the software look complex but it really just looped for a bit before going 'okay' without ever actually testing things. Toyoto told us how an error our test set-up was seeing was just our test set-up on side air-bag sensors, only to have a driver wreck on a test course because of that fault necessitating a lot of effort on their part to shift the blame to us.

So unfortunately those kinds of morons exist all over the place, operating on everything but safety concerns. Yes even in the military, you don't want to know the horror stories related to production of vital gear for American soldiers. As an anime Robotech/Macross can have the 'well that didn't happen here' pronouncement to deal with that problem.

Drakenred®™© wrote:I may be misremembering another projects or fan mecha. Its in my printouts(someplace, I did several binders of them, I will try to backtrack it later.

I have a sneaking suspicion you may be thinking of the VF-3000.

Jefffar wrote:There is nothing officially established in Robotech about any craft's ability to take externally stored ordinance through re-entry.

Ah, all right then... so it's just a completely unfounded assumption that certain people are talking up as if it were fact.

Jefffar wrote:To my knowledge, the only two images that we have of a veritech fighter during atmospheric , one didn't have any ordinance to eject (Scott) and the other ejected everything it was carrying including non-external ordinance (Rick). Both Veritechs were damaged at the time.

Barring further depictions of the VF-1 in action from the rest of the original Macross, I believe this is the case. It does, however, bear noting that these are dissimilar cases even though both craft are damaged. The former case is that of a craft that lacks the means to take external ordinance, and the latter case is that of a craft which had already fired off all or most of its ordinance and was ejecting spent/damaged fuel tanks prior to reentry.

Jefffar wrote:However it is common sense that if even minor structural damage (a few lose tiles caused by a piece of insulation foam) can have catastrophic effects during re-entry (destruction of a shuttle and the loss of several crew) that an aircraft performing re-entry would want to be in a totally clean configuration

But, by your own admission above, this is not a true statement. On both occasions, we see VFs make reentry with more than minor damage without significant difficulty. Rick's case is particularly illustrative, since his plane was missing several sections which ordinarily form the ventral surface of the fuselage, and it came through reentry without incident.

Jefffar wrote:not carrying several large drag-inducing external objects that are only secured to the air-frame by explosive bolts.

Is it a fact that these are mounted with explosive bolts? No, it's not. It's something you're assuming without any supporting evidence. Just like you're assuming that the mechanism can't stand up to reentry, even though we've seen that badly damaged planes missing large chunks of fuselage have no trouble on reentry. Incidentally, this doesn't jive with the OSM, or with the apparent ability of the Alpha to make reentry safely carrying an active gun pod on one of its wings or its dorsal armor, since essentially every one that we see has a gun pod.

rtsurfer wrote:What moron loaded software without customizing its install for the new equipment, especially when people's lives were involved?

Mistakes get made, especially when there's a lack of communication between engineers or assumptions being made during development that turn out not to be true. To cite a good military example, the PATRIOT missile system's target acquisition radar had an error which stemmed from incompatibility between units of measurement... seconds vs. system clock cycles of the processor, which can only approximate the fractions used in timekeeping by normal clock methods. It's not something that occurs to most people, so the flaws in the time computation were caused the radars to lose track of incoming SCUD missiles.

Another, less deadly, example would be the Ariane 5 rocket... where an assumption made during development and reuse of parts of the previous model's software caused an error in which the guidance computer was trying to store a 64-bit floating point value as a 16-bit integer, which made the rocket's flight unstable to the point where the ground crew was forced to activate its self-destruct only 37 seconds after launch.

Generally speaking, it was slips like that radiation issue mentioned before that caused the creation of many of the practices that are now standard in software engineering.

ShadowLogan wrote:Technically the -5 is used for the Condor (in the RPG continuity), and has been mentioned as such in the past in the infopedia entry with regard to the Beta. Lacking a non-RPG writeup for the Condor the RPG is the closest we have to an official take on the unit at this time.

But it's not an official take, so we shouldn't assume that -5 is in use. There is, after all, no transformable Condor.

ShadowLogan wrote:Perhaps with the robotics systems, but some of the regular avionics can certainly reuse the software as is or with some modification if avionics are being shared between the two platforms.

At a larger size, the airframe control system is going to need to be substantially rewritten to compensate for the changes in aerodynamics and handling. It might not be a ground-up "do over", but it's gonna be damn close. You should see the amount of rewriting I had to do for just minor tweaks in engine calibration back in college when I was involved in Formula SAE. If something as minor as power steering timings is enough to cause a week of all-nighters, I can only imagine how much time it'll take to correct something as completely as a resized airframe.

ShadowLogan wrote:HG has said "Where conflicts arise, consistency with events of the television episodes takes priority", so the Vindicator is canon since it would be consistant with the TV episodes (it isn't the first platform built at the scale).

But, as we've shown, the conclusion you've drawn isn't necessarily one that's supported by the show. Your assumption depends heavily on the idea that the animators are infallible or that there's no such thing as perspective.

rtsurfer wrote:Doesn't the Tomahawk/Excalibur have a head?

Sort of... it doesn't have a side-to-side range of motion, but there is a clearly defined area that we could call the head. Its main articulation is up-and-down, primarily for the purpose of boarding the mecha.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/d ... neart1.gif

jaymz wrote:O.o what head? there is the pod on top but that's not a head.....

The Beta's head is capable of movement in multiple axes, as shown by the line art. I'd call that a head, even if it's kind of small in proportion to the body.

Incidentally, the Tomahawk's "head" is where it keeps a variety of targeting sensors (optical, FLIR, laser, etc.).

Scott's entry into the Earth's atmosphere was a success only in that it allowed him to safely crash land. The mecha was no longer capable of use once he reached planet side. So at this point we can only assume whatever combination of luck, airmanship and plot device that allowed him to descend safely held out for him.

Rick made a point of jettisoning everything else attached to the aircraft before atmospheric entry. To me that demonstrates a concern that he wouldn't be able to do anything resembling a safe, controlled entry with those large drag (friction) inducing external items. Again a combination of luck, airmanship and plot device allowed him to bring his stricken craft down not only in a controlled fashion, but also close enough to Alaska Base to perform a rescue operation. I chalk that one up to the same source as Max's famous action in the Zentraedi washroom.

I talked about explosive bolts because that is the current standard way items are affixed to hardpoints and I have no evidence to the contrary that Robotech does it differently. The violence of the ejection of the Armour Pack and the FAST Packs off Rick's veritech in the respective episodes indicate those are also likely explosive bolts. However the issue isn't if they are or are not explosive bolts, the issue is that the munitions attached to hard points are not permanently affixed to the aircraft and are thus liable (even likely) to shear off during atmospheric entry, potentially damaging the aircraft during the most critical moment.

Ultimately, we do not have a craft making an atmospheric entry in robotech with any external ordinance. The one aircraft that had an opportunity to do so, jettisoned said ordinance in the process. That, plus some knowledge about aircraft munition mounting systems and about the stresses of an atmospheric entry leads to a very logical conclusion that externally mounted ordinance pods are as much a danger during atmospheric entry operations in Robotech as they are in real life and the standard procedure would be to perform the entry manoeuvre as clean as possible.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Jefffar wrote:There is nothing officially established in Robotech about any craft's ability to take externally stored ordinance through re-entry.

Ah, all right then... so it's just a completely unfounded assumption that certain people are talking up as if it were fact.

I think evidence has been provided within the Show from various sources. It is time that you provide evidence to contradict what has been given to you - from Robotech's show.

In the past there was an issue where folks wouldn't let a VF-1 use a fast pack within the atmosphere. It would cause too much drag, and there was no evidence within the RPG that stated either way.

Then Macross II came around and stated the VF-2SS SAP armor couldn't be used within the atmosphere (IIRC).

It's your game - I think this issue has been beaten to death. Let the folks decide how they are going to run with it.

Jefffar wrote:There is nothing officially established in Robotech about any craft's ability to take externally stored ordinance through re-entry.

I have to Completely Agree with this Statement. Unless the Ability i said to Exist, it sounds like a tad bit of Fannon added to the show to make something possible that common-sense dictates is impossible.
but it will happen that someone will ask you to "Prove a negative" and Supply info where the VF-1 is said "not" to be able to carry external ordinance... the proof is right in the show.

Jefffar wrote:Rick made a point of jettisoning everything else attached to the aircraft before atmospheric entry.

A point which only sounds like it supports your assertion if you take it out of context... the relevant context being that he wasn't making reentry for combat purposes, and that he had nothing to jettison except for empty ordinance containers and fuel tanks. Why would he or any other pilot willingly drag along significant excess weight to no useful end?

Jefffar wrote:I talked about explosive bolts because that is the current standard way items are affixed to hardpoints and I have no evidence to the contrary that Robotech does it differently. The violence of the ejection of the Armour Pack and the FAST Packs off Rick's veritech in the respective episodes indicate those are also likely explosive bolts.

So, you're assuming that this is the case based on "real world" technology. This is, if you'll forgive my bluntness, a fundamentally flawed approach. I've already pointed out one area where your use of modern tech to calibrate your expectations led to an obviously bad conclusion in this matter. Just as a point of interest, the line art of the weapon pylons for the VF-1's AMM-1 missiles (seen here) appears to show that the missiles are held on using a mechanical linkage rather than an explosive bolt arrangement. Quite sensible IMO, when you consider the atypical stresses the pylons are put under during maneuvering and transformation.

(There is precedent in the OSM for FAST packs and such to be attached to the plane via physical sockets and electromagnetism.)

Jefffar wrote:However the issue isn't if they are or are not explosive bolts, the issue is that the munitions attached to hard points are not permanently affixed to the aircraft and are thus liable (even likely) to shear off during atmospheric entry, potentially damaging the aircraft during the most critical moment.

Doesn't seem that way to me... but then again, the OSM has shown that reentry isn't any big deal for a VF even with armaments mounted. Nor, for that matter, is orbital escape. I think the latter is actually shown in the new comics. Remember, these planes aren't made out of modern materials, they're composed of super-tough [Robo/Over]technology material that's a good deal stronger than anything we have today. That much is even reiterated in the new RPG.

Jefffar wrote:That, plus some knowledge about aircraft munition mounting systems and about the stresses of an atmospheric entry leads to a very logical conclusion [...]

... based on a series of faulty premises and baseless assumptions.

Tiree wrote:I think evidence has been provided within the Show from various sources. It is time that you provide evidence to contradict what has been given to you - from Robotech's show.

As I've illustrated above, evidence is the one thing that hasn't been provided from any source... let alone the show. What's being bandied about by the people arguing that VF-1 units can't make reentry with weapons mounted are assumptions with no actual connection to the visual or written evidence. Jefffar himself has said that there isn't any actual source that says it's not possible, they're just assuming it is based on one event taken well out of context.

Tiree wrote:In the past there was an issue where folks wouldn't let a VF-1 use a fast pack within the atmosphere. It would cause too much drag, and there was no evidence within the RPG that stated either way.

Well, yeah... that's the RPG. It's every bit as full of wild guesses and incorrect information as the argument I'm refuting. That'd be why the Infopedia's authors ranked it as one of the least reliable sources of information on Robotech. The OSM, the source from which all of Robotech's mecha stats flow, begs to differ on this note. It is, in fact, possible for VF-1s to operate in atmosphere with Super Packs attached. It's been shown several times during various Macross titles, and fairly prominently at that.

Tiree wrote:Then Macross II came around and stated the VF-2SS SAP armor couldn't be used within the atmosphere (IIRC).

Oh boy... I'm gonna keep this short and (hopefully) diplomatic. If it comes out sounding a bit caustic, I apologize in advance. This is something of a sore spot for me.

Palladium's Macross II role-playing game represents a MASSIVE failure of research. I'm not exaggerating even slightly when I say that there's more wrong than right in the five RPG books... by a considerable margin. Much of what's in it doesn't match the show, or the line art, or anything else for that matter. It's had me scratching my head and wondering at how it could have gone so badly wrong for going on eight years now. They even give the wrong year for the OVA's events.

As far as I'm aware, and I'm generally regarded as the top english-speaking expert on Macross II, there is absolutely nothing anywhere that says that the Valkyrie II w/ the Super Armed Pack cannot operate in atmosphere. Indeed, I can think of at least one case where it's been shown doing so (that being Macross Ultimate Frontier).

I have a picture here of a real life Multiple Ejector rack that looks pretty close to the one in the picture for the supposedly mechanical one on the VF-1. If the one on the VF-1 is indeed mechanical, then it would need longer grip fingers to gain purchase on the missile, otherwise the gripping action would actually push the missile away.

However explosive bolts is not the point. The point is that these non-permanent installations (explosive bolt, mechanical, electromagnetic) are not demonstrated to be tough enough to secure an external load through atmospheric entry. In the one occurrence where we had a reasonable opportunity to see if these external loads could survive atmospheric entry the pilot jettisoned them.

So at this point the evidence in Robotech does not establish an ability to carry these external loads through atmospheric entry and some basic knowledge of the stresses involved in atmospheric entry corroborates that an external load would be highly dangerous to carry during atmospheric entry. This points to a conclusion that carriage of external loads during entry was either impossible or so dangerous as to be avoided whenever possible.

So at this point the burden of proof is to demonstrate that external loads can be carried through atmospheric entry in Robotech.

Jefffar wrote:I have a picture here of a real life Multiple Ejector rack that looks pretty close to the one in the picture for the supposedly mechanical one on the VF-1.

Oy... we're going in circles again, where you draw an inference based on modern tech and I'm stuck reminding you that we're not talking about a modern conventional aircraft.

Jefffar wrote:The point is that these non-permanent installations (explosive bolt, mechanical, electromagnetic) are not demonstrated to be tough enough to secure an external load through atmospheric entry.

"Not demonstrated"... now that's kind of a loaded way to say it. It's not demonstrated (in Robotech) because the show didn't have an orbit-to-surface assault in the plot. The opposite side of that particular coin is that there's also nothing that says it isn't possible in Robotech... and explicit proof that it IS possible in the OSM, from whence all stats in Robotech come.

Jefffar wrote:In the one occurrence where we had a reasonable opportunity to see if these external loads could survive atmospheric entry the pilot jettisoned them.

Deja vu all over again... he didn't jettison live ordinance, he dumped empty fuel tanks and empty ordinance containers. There wouldn't have been any reason for him to retain them. It's not evidence to support your assertion.

Orbit to surface assault is in the plot of Robotech

The Zentraedi do it.
The Masters do it.
The Invid do it.
The UEEF does it.

Are any of them shown carrying external ordinance while they enter an atmosphere?

Jefffar wrote:Orbit to surface assault is in the plot of Robotech

Really? Please, point me to the episode or episodes of the Macross Saga where the UEDF's carrying out an orbit-to-surface assault. Unless I've missed something, there are no VF-1's kicking around in the other two sagas.

Jefffar wrote:[...] Are any of them shown carrying external ordinance while they enter an atmosphere?

More to the point, you're making an apples-and-oranges comparison here... nothing used by the non-human factions in Robotech has the ability to carry external ordinance. In the case of the UEEF, there's no saying either way. We've never even seen a Beta use its wing pylons, and we won't have an answer on the Conbat front until Harmony Gold finds someone willing to distribute that "side story" they're working on.


EDIT: Conbat, not Condor... d'oh.

Jefffar wrote:Orbit to surface assault is in the plot of Robotech

The Zentraedi do it.
The Masters do it.
The Invid do it.
The UEEF does it.

Are any of them shown carrying external ordinance while they enter an atmosphere?

The Zentraedi and Masters use landing craft...the invid show up in a big ball of energy....the UEEF has internal weapons loadouts that would not get sheared (shorn??) off during re-entry.

So if the forces that practice atmospheric entry as a combat manoeuvre don't use external ordinance on their craft during atmospheric entry, and the only UEDF example we have of a craft performing atmospheric entry jettisons it's external ordinance before atmospheric entry . . .

Please tell me where the evidence is in Robotech that carrying external ordinance during atmospheric entry actually occurs.

Otherwise, the evidence and reasonable knowledge of what an atmospheric entry entails indicates that atmospheric entry is generally done with no external ordinance, likely for reasons of safety.

Jefffar wrote:Otherwise, the evidence and reasonable knowledge of what an atmospheric entry entails indicates that atmospheric entry is generally done with no external ordinance, likely for reasons of safety.

Kind of a fallacious conclusion, isn't it? You're attempting to draw a sweeping generalization based on a single, highly atypical, circumstance as though it were the norm. During the one scene in question, the VF-1S preparing for reentry is not making a combat drop, has already spent its ordinance, and has suffered fairly major combat damage.

You're drawing an irrelevant conclusion here... your premise doesn't fit your evidence.

Also, it was mentioned upthread but I think it bears repeating: if no Veritech can carry external stores through re-entry, period, then where did all of those Alpha gunpods come from?

It's anime, folks.
Real World Phsyics don't apply.
BUT....While you(anime superhero you) might be able to make atmospheric re-entry with underwing ordnance still attached, you'd have to do so so slowly that it would take you weeks to come down...you may as well take an orbital elevator down. Insanely difficult from a technological point, mminently impractical from a military standpoint("Ewww, look at the bright reaction torch inching down the gravity well! Open fire!").

As a GM, I wouldn't allow it. And if a player decided to come in from atmo with full wing racks without some sort of forcefield, or disposable heat shield streamling him, I'd pile on major contro, roll penalties and big chances for the ordnance to be destroyed by thermal heating and shockwave buffeting. Maybe even an ammo/rocket motor cookoff.

So, folks, you wanna drop into atmosphere with your external racks full-metal'ed? You better have a point defense barrier protecting your belly, a full coverage disposable heat shield/'surfboard' in place...or you better be riding in something like a Garfish or other transport better able to handle re-entry.

Of The Funk wrote:Also, it was mentioned upthread but I think it bears repeating: if no Veritech can carry external stores through re-entry, period, then where did all of those Alpha gunpods come from?

Hammerspace.
Seriously? I'd have to go off-camera and use the 'centreline top mount' sometimes depicted in fan models(along with the extra shoulder-box, or just attached it to a mounting bracket on one of the shoulders). Such a fitting would require being moved out of the way during the transformation sequences as the arms wing out and the cockpit/nose tips up and back, but it's doable.

Actually my conclusion is based on repeated situations across the entire series. We just don't see any atmospheric entries done with external stores. None. The UEDF doesn't do it. The Zentraedi doesn't do it. The ASC doesn't do it. The Masters don't do it. The UEEF doesn't do it. The Invid don't do it.

If even one of those had taken external stores through an atmospheric entry I might have conceded it was possible. But since none of them do it I have to determine that the collective reasoning of the Robotech Universe has reached the conclusion that it is better to not carry external stores through atmospheric entry.

This conclusion is so strong that the forces that most regularly expect to engage in space to surface operations have moved as much ordinance as possible inside the craft or even abandoned the concept of mecha and fighters entering the atmosphere separately.

Jefffar wrote:Actually my conclusion is based on repeated situations across the entire series. We just don't see any atmospheric entries done with external stores. None. The UEDF doesn't do it. The Zentraedi doesn't do it. The ASC doesn't do it. The Masters don't do it. The UEEF doesn't do it. The Invid don't do it.

If even one of those had taken external stores through an atmospheric entry I might have conceded it was possible. But since none of them do it I have to determine that the collective reasoning of the Robotech Universe has reached the conclusion that it is better to not carry external stores through atmospheric entry.

This conclusion is so strong that the forces that most regularly expect to engage in space to surface operations have moved as much ordinance as possible inside the craft or even abandoned the concept of mecha and fighters entering the atmosphere separately.

The only example we have for the UEDF is Rick which iirc he already used all his wing ordnance and as said earlier why would he keep empty weapon containers and fuel tanks attached if he didn't need them any longer during re-entry and they would be of little to no use to him in atmosphere anyway?

The Zentraedi do not use external stores on their fighters or on the FMPA so this a moot point as these are the only two fighter type craft that we see performing re-entry or going orbital.

The ASC is never seen making atmospheric re-entry in fighters though the primary Space fighter (which iirc does go into orbit from the surface) they have aside from the AGACS (which is only launched and used in space iirc) is the Chimera and it too does not have external stores so it is a moot point.

The Master do not use external stores so again it is a moot point.

The Invid do not use external stores so this is also a moot point.

The UEEF does not really use external stores (we never see the Beta using it's hardpoints) aside from the Alpha's gunpod and we do see Alphas entering atmosphere with gunpods attached and they seem to survive relatively well.

None of this proves that fighters cannot make re-entry with external stores attached and if anything the Alpha is an example that perhaps fighters CAN make re-entry with external stores on board.

jaymz wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Actually my conclusion is based on repeated situations across the entire series. We just don't see any atmospheric entries done with external stores. None. The UEDF doesn't do it. The Zentraedi doesn't do it. The ASC doesn't do it. The Masters don't do it. The UEEF doesn't do it. The Invid don't do it.

If even one of those had taken external stores through an atmospheric entry I might have conceded it was possible. But since none of them do it I have to determine that the collective reasoning of the Robotech Universe has reached the conclusion that it is better to not carry external stores through atmospheric entry.

This conclusion is so strong that the forces that most regularly expect to engage in space to surface operations have moved as much ordinance as possible inside the craft or even abandoned the concept of mecha and fighters entering the atmosphere separately.

The only example we have for the UEDF is Rick which iirc he already used all his wing ordnance and as said earlier why would he keep empty weapon containers and fuel tanks attached if he didn't need them any longer during re-entry and they would be of little to no use to him in atmosphere anyway?

The Zentraedi do not use external stores on their fighters or on the FMPA so this a moot point as these are the only two fighter type craft that we see performing re-entry or going orbital.

The ASC is never seen making atmospheric re-entry in fighters though the primary Space fighter (which iirc does go into orbit from the surface) they have aside from the AGACS (which is only launched and used in space iirc) is the Chimera and it too does not have external stores so it is a moot point.

The Master do not use external stores so again it is a moot point.

The Invid do not use external stores so this is also a moot point.

The UEEF does not really use external stores (we never see the Beta using it's hardpoints) aside from the Alpha's gunpod and we do see Alphas entering atmosphere with gunpods attached and they seem to survive relatively well.

None of this proves that fighters cannot make re-entry with external stores attached and if anything the Alpha is an example that perhaps fighters CAN make re-entry with external stores on board.

I believe that the Alpha's gunpod is right up against the hull of the Alpha so as (for the purposes of our discussion) to be considered as part of the hull....as opposed to the wing missiles on the VF-1 that are hanging off of the wings.

Chris0013 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Actually my conclusion is based on repeated situations across the entire series. We just don't see any atmospheric entries done with external stores. None. The UEDF doesn't do it. The Zentraedi doesn't do it. The ASC doesn't do it. The Masters don't do it. The UEEF doesn't do it. The Invid don't do it.

If even one of those had taken external stores through an atmospheric entry I might have conceded it was possible. But since none of them do it I have to determine that the collective reasoning of the Robotech Universe has reached the conclusion that it is better to not carry external stores through atmospheric entry.

This conclusion is so strong that the forces that most regularly expect to engage in space to surface operations have moved as much ordinance as possible inside the craft or even abandoned the concept of mecha and fighters entering the atmosphere separately.

The only example we have for the UEDF is Rick which iirc he already used all his wing ordnance and as said earlier why would he keep empty weapon containers and fuel tanks attached if he didn't need them any longer during re-entry and they would be of little to no use to him in atmosphere anyway?

The Zentraedi do not use external stores on their fighters or on the FMPA so this a moot point as these are the only two fighter type craft that we see performing re-entry or going orbital.

The ASC is never seen making atmospheric re-entry in fighters though the primary Space fighter (which iirc does go into orbit from the surface) they have aside from the AGACS (which is only launched and used in space iirc) is the Chimera and it too does not have external stores so it is a moot point.

The Master do not use external stores so again it is a moot point.

The Invid do not use external stores so this is also a moot point.

The UEEF does not really use external stores (we never see the Beta using it's hardpoints) aside from the Alpha's gunpod and we do see Alphas entering atmosphere with gunpods attached and they seem to survive relatively well.

None of this proves that fighters cannot make re-entry with external stores attached and if anything the Alpha is an example that perhaps fighters CAN make re-entry with external stores on board.

I believe that the Alpha's gunpod is right up against the hull of the Alpha so as (for the purposes of our discussion) to be considered as part of the hull....as opposed to the wing missiles on the VF-1 that are hanging off of the wings.

External ordnance is external ordnance. It can either re-enter with it or it can't and again we never see a VF-1 attempt to do so with missiles on the wings so there is no evidence one way or the other. So for the purposes for this discussion the answer is we don't know if they can or can't.

Honestly, the Burden for Proof when trying to "Prove" somehting happened when it doesn't happen is in the hands of the person making said Fanon statements. Otherwise, Within the Robotech Show as shown in the 85 epsiodes, the VF-1 cannot and does-not make Atmospheric re-entry with external ordinances or F.A.S.T packs added. Period. now if the is Actual Proof form Robotech (Animation or Dialog) that shows or says the VF-1 can do saif thing, its up to the person aking the assumption to actually Provide it, not ask people to Prove a Negative and provide Proof that is "can't" happen.

if no Veritech can carry external stores through re-entry, period, then where did all of those Alpha gunpods come from?

I've never Said no-Veritech can... just the VF-1 can't. the Alpha & Shadow Fighters are shwon being able to take their Gunpods through reentry... http://www.robotech.com/images/content/ ... 2_1824.jpg as shown here, the Gunpod can be top-mounted for re-entry. same thing wiht the SF's Destabilizer.. http://www.monkeyanime.com/wp-content/u ... 04/125.jpg


but this looks soo cool: http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/images/coolab.jpg

Colonel Wolfe wrote:but this looks soo cool: http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/images/coolab.jpg

Oh Yeah!

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

but this looks soo cool: http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/images/coolab.jpg

Regard it as deep-space maxi-loading, or post-planetfall field load-up and strike, with an element of pure cowboying("YYYEEE-HHHAAAAAWWWW!!!") involved.

So when did the military switch to explosive release bolts for external items like fuel tanks and missile launchers? As my experience with them they had conventional latch releases (and had a scary high failure rate if you're a pilot and a fully loaded fuel tank doesn't release after you catch the nearby forest of the airport on take-off or skim too low around power lines showing off).

@Seto
Perspective is used in the argument for the g-alpha being on screen by both side. The problem there really lies in both camps using perspective to futher their own view. All the calculated sizes I've seen always do so using a single measurement as the reference. Something I have been thinking about doing lately is doing the measurements myself, but add additional measurements in to compare and cross reference. Like in the Cyc pic I would use the height and length of the Cyclone itself, measure the "alpha" as needed and calculate size using both sets of numbers. In this way they should match (or close to it given the handdrawings and measurement error), and even use the numbers to cross check the other baseline measurement. If things don't add up, I would agree the scale here is an AE as opposed to something more delibirate.

As for the Condor, that's as close as we can get now. And one extra slot for the VFs really doesn't do much IMO.

As for the software. We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. Some software likely will need to be new, others modified, but some can certainly be reused. I guess the question that should be considered is how much "plug and play" there is in Mecha engineering for RT (the Frankenmecha rules seem to be more plug and play per generation in the RPG). If we knew that the answer might be clearer. Being intended for a space force would require more interoperability I would imagine to maximize storage space for spare parts.

@Jeffar
2 Points concerning atmospheric entry.
1. If the platform carrying the external ordance has sufficient propulsive (sp) energy available it can enter the atmosphere at a more moderate speed that may be no more stressful than subsonic flight. That is a lot of propulsive energy though, which the VF-1 does have if it uses majority/all of it's delta-v to slow down prior to entering the atmosphere. The VF-1 has the capacity, but is not shown to use the capacity. Scott's A/B does preform a powered breaking in NG#1 for a short period of time (then goes into a powered dive).

2. External ordance could be designed with re-entry in mind. There is no real way to tell if this has happened w/n the show. Not saying they did or did not, but merely that it was an option that may exist outside of the animation.

Of The Funk wrote:Also, it was mentioned upthread but I think it bears repeating: if no Veritech can carry external stores through re-entry, period, then where did all of those Alpha gunpods come from?

Precisely.

Jefffar wrote:Actually my conclusion is based on repeated situations across the entire series.

Your conclusion is based on completely different, and thus irrelevant, situations across the series... and I'm not the only one who's pointed out this little problem with your logic. I'd have to remind you that an emergency landing is not a combat drop, we see the former in Rick's case, not the latter... and only then after he's already used his ordinance. You're leaping to a conclusion that isn't supported even a little by the evidence. Mind you, the approach taken by the writers of the official, canon material puts OSM answers ahead of supposition in terms of reliability.

So, yes... the OSM says it's possible for a VF-1 to make a combat drop with its super pack and/or external ordinance mounted. We see this done many times in Macross, and at least three or four times I can think of with the VF-1, particularly in titles related to DYRL? and Macross II, the former of which Palladium and Harmony Gold have accidentally put content from into the official stats.

(Incidentally, the locking bolts retaining the Super Pack and the hinges for the "backpack" rockets on the VF-1 aren't much bigger than the hard point connectors, and they're quite unambiguously stressed to take forces in excess of 120,000kgf each, twice that for those backpack hinges... 11.25x the net thrust of an F-22A Raptor's engines. I doubt all the stress of reentry would be an issue when the parts are stressed to hold up to having over 2,800kN of force applied to the airframe.)

Chris0013 wrote:I believe that the Alpha's gunpod is right up against the hull of the Alpha so as (for the purposes of our discussion) to be considered as part of the hull....as opposed to the wing missiles on the VF-1 that are hanging off of the wings.

You'd be... well... wrong. It's not right up against the hull, it's actually suspended by the grip between the trailing edge of the wing surface and the leg. Not only does it mean that the Alpha's making reentry with an unbalanced load, the gun pod is mounted in such a way that the friction of reentry could apply lateral force to it and rip it right off the plane if the mecha were made out of conventional materials.

(Incidentally, the above-mentioned center-line dorsal mount for the gun pod isn't just a fan thing, it's actually from the design team... it was just never used with the stock gun pod in the show, and was mainly a structural piece in early transforming toys.)

ShadowLogan wrote:Perspective is used in the argument for the g-alpha being on screen by both side. The problem there really lies in both camps using perspective to further their own view.

Actually, the problem lies in the assumption that there was ever any such thing as a "giant Alpha" in the animation. There was, of course, only ever the one scale of Legioss fighter in the original MOSPEADA, and thus there is only one scale of it in the animation. That's just the facts. If there was a compelling case for the existence of a giant Alpha fighter ala the "Vindicator" in the original RPG, it would be canon in Robotech and we wouldn't be having this discussion. There isn't, so it isn't. Animation errors happen, and Harmony Gold acknowledges them just as much as the actual creators do. The only ones that get made canon are ones that make sense and benefit the continuity of the series like the nosecone lasers or the VF-1R. The simplest explanation is usually the best one, and since there is a strong case to say that the perspective in that scene is showing a normal sized Alpha and Cyclone, the simplest answer is that there is no giant Alpha.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for the Condor, that's as close as we can get now. And one extra slot for the VFs really doesn't do much IMO.

Meh... as much as I respect Kevin and co. for the effort they put into writing the games, I have to say that I understand only too well why the books are always considered not to be valid as sources of information on the series proper. It's the same problem the novels have, there's just too much creative license being taken with the contents.

One extra spot for a VF... well... it gives us one more developmental model between the YF-4 and the Alpha if nothing else.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for the software. We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. Some software likely will need to be new, others modified, but some can certainly be reused.

Yes, that's true... reuse of software in a complex machine is exactly what caused the huge disaster that was the Ariane 5 rocket. I'm not arguing this as an armchair expert, I'm giving you the benefit of my professional experience in the field of embedded software for robotics and automotive applications. The amount of mechanical change necessary to make a plane like that larger, even if it wasn't also a transforming robot, would necessitate almost a total ground-up rework of the software. You can't simply scale up things like fiber-optic cabling, joint drive systems, and particularly cooling systems. Those all have to be reworked.

ShadowLogan wrote:If we knew that the answer might be clearer. Being intended for a space force would require more interoperability I would imagine to maximize storage space for spare parts.

Uh, yeah... interoperability and interchangeability of spare parts between fighters is one of the best arguments for the canon, correct scenario where there is only one size of Alpha in the UEEF arsenal, just with different minor variations for specific missions like the VF/A-6Z's higher-tuned engines for better atmospheric performance.

ShadowLogan wrote:1. If the platform carrying the external ordance has sufficient propulsive (sp) energy available it can enter the atmosphere at a more moderate speed that may be no more stressful than subsonic flight.

An interesting take on it, tho considering the above statement about the stresses that we know these stations are set up to take, possibly an unnecessary one.

ShadowLogan wrote:2. External ordance could be designed with re-entry in mind. There is no real way to tell if this has happened w/n the show. Not saying they did or did not, but merely that it was an option that may exist outside of the animation.

Within the OSM, yeah... that's been done. There are multiple ways to make reentry with a suite of armaments attached, depending on how you're deploying and how fast you want to get there. I don't fancy the fastest way... being stuffed into an orbit to surface missile and fired at the target is not how I'd want to make planetfall.

rtsurfer wrote:All of this arguing that's been going on supposes the over-sized Alpha was expanded in size overall which isn't necessarily supported by the animation. If you actually compare the over-sized Alphas to line art of the Shadow Alpha most of it appears about the same with the exception of a stretched torso and upper legs, the hip joints also appear to be set in a different place than in the standard model.

I didn't reply before because it seemed tangential, but to the extent the "Vindicator" is a modification rather than a rescaling, my arguments of course don't apply.
As for the animation, the upper leg, lower leg, and mid-torso connector all seem lengthened; the location of the missile launcher's forward "point" seems to change from picture to picture. I think you're right about the hips too.

ShadowLogan wrote:@ESalter
No it would not be a failure as a PoC. It would still be able to prove the concept in part, reducing risk when they move up to the next generation system. Aspects not covered could be proven in the Ghost Fighter or Zentreadi Fighter Pod.

I guess I'm not following you. You agree the Valkyrie can't carry missiles from orbit, right? So how can the Valkyrie work as a PoC for carrying missiles from orbit?

ShadowLogan wrote:I thought the VHT-1 used standard heads, but merly different color highlights/markings.

No, they're different (see the uRRG); the sourcebook (99) describes the differences.

ShadowLogan wrote:The AGACs, and Beta might qualify to depending on the heads of the alternate models (which aren't seen, AGACs come in A/B versions...

According to the uRRG, the only major difference in the sensors of the AGACs is in the upper nose optics. I'd guess the head is strictly for close-in work; the same on ground or in space.

ShadowLogan wrote:and the Beta's A/S version, in both cases only 1 model assumes Battloid in the series).

FWIW, the new toys show different heads for different versions.

ShadowLogan wrote:Destroids IIRC don't have head variations, but the Battloids do.

Actually, variant Phalanx heads appear in "FoA."

ShadowLogan wrote:And as I said,it may be an attempt to get away from the unique head designs.

My point was that identical heads means identical equipment. The problem is if the "Vindicator" head isn't unique; if it scales up along with the rest of the mecha. IOW, if it looks the same despite being different.

ShadowLogan wrote:I think the mecha was made to resemble a smaller unit in part for the visual deception mentioned previously.

What, exactly, would be the military purpose of such a deception? Isn't it a lot of effort to expend on an illusion that's only rarely useful (or noticeable)? Has such an illusion ever been used IRL?

ShadowLogan wrote:And what we can see is from a decent distance so details may be lacking that could require or provide an answer (depending on the new details).

Maybe, but I can only go by what I see. (And the best picture is pretty sharp; have you seen #6 from Olson's Vindicator gallery?)

ShadowLogan wrote:The RPG/Infopedia do list some of the Bioroids of the Masters as having head cannons, but IINM they are never used in the show, so the g-Alpha could have head lasers and not fire them.

The Bioroid guns are visible; a head with guns shouldn't look like one without.

Of The Funk wrote:Also, it was mentioned upthread but I think it bears repeating: if no Veritech can carry external stores through re-entry, period, then where did all of those Alpha gunpods come from?

IMO the Alpha gun's a special case:

• It's sturdy-looking.
• It's stowed in a relatively secure place (i.e., a corner instead of the middle of a wing).
• Stowed, it's pretty inert (i.e., no explosives).
• It's probably designed to survive reentry.

taalismn wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

but this looks soo cool: http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/images/coolab.jpg

Regard it as deep-space maxi-loading, or post-planetfall field load-up and strike, with an element of pure cowboying("YYYEEE-HHHAAAAAWWWW!!!") involved.

Space, I'd say: it doesn't look like an aerodynamic configuration — and those guns!

I think I have the solution for folks here:

The G-Alpha is really an IMU. It's a modification of the VF-1's Airframe.

Tiree wrote:The G-Alpha is really an IMU. It's a modification of the VF-1's Airframe.

Um... it's been a while since I cracked the old edition, but isn't that more or less how it was described when Palladium's writers made it a thing and called it the Vindicator?

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Tiree wrote:The G-Alpha is really an IMU. It's a modification of the VF-1's Airframe.

Um... it's been a while since I cracked the old edition, but isn't that more or less how it was described when Palladium's writers made it a thing and called it the Vindicator?

Kind of - the Vindicator from the RPG required or used the same Mecha Combat as the VF-1

@ESalter
The VF-1 can still be used to prove the concept, it may not be 100%, but it can still prove a portion of the concept. And there are ways for the VF-1 to take external ordance through a re-entry that do not mimic the way we see Rick in his VF-1S for FoA.

As for the heads issue, never really looked into getting a Beta MPC because I thought they where way over priced (like the Cyclone ones). The Spartas heads look that way to me in the animation.

I don't agree that identical heads have to mean identical equipment.

@Seto

An interesting take on it, tho considering the above statement about the stresses that we know these stations are set up to take, possibly an unnecessary one.

Agree that going subsonic ins't necessary, but they really couldn't get much slower than that. More likely we are looking at Supersonic, maybe even low hypersonic velocity. Either of which would be less stressful than hitting the atmosphere at near Mach 25

You can't simply scale up things like fiber-optic cabling, joint drive systems, and particularly cooling systems. Those all have to be reworked.

Look I am not saying they will take every single system from the r-Alpha and scale it up or put it in as is. All I am saying is that there are items they can take from the r-Alpha and other platforms as is because there is no benifit to using a new deign to do the same job. Differene in size for the platform does not matter all the time.

Actually, the problem lies in the assumption that there was ever any such thing as a "giant Alpha" in the animation

I don't think the assumption of a giant alpha is completely out of the realm for Robotech (GCM I would agree is another matter).

I'm not going to continue on the g-Alpha issue until I have a chance to do those measurements and calculations I mentioned previously. Depending on where they remain constant will determine if I drop the idea or not.

Tiree wrote::
The G-Alpha is really an IMU. It's a modification of the VF-1's Airframe.[/quote[
Um... it's been a while since I cracked the old edition, but isn't that more or less how it was described when Palladium's writers made it a thing and called it the Vindicator?

No the Vindicator wasn't an IMU. It was added to fight along side the Shadow Fighter as a first strike assault unit and was originally intended to combat Zentreadi still in the Masters service. It is said to be a cross between the Alpha (shape, weapons, etc) and VF (size, mass basically), though it is considered a VF-1 (probably should be its own VF-# really).

ShadowLogan wrote:More likely we are looking at Supersonic, maybe even low hypersonic velocity. Either of which would be less stressful than hitting the atmosphere at near Mach 25

Perhaps so... but admittedly, high mach velocities aren't exactly beyond the VF-1's design limits in the original Macross universe(s). (Mach 19 is the highest speed attributed to any VF-1 variant to date in a canon source.)

ShadowLogan wrote:Look I am not saying they will take every single system from the r-Alpha and scale it up or put it in as is. All I am saying is that there are items they can take from the r-Alpha and other platforms as is because there is no benifit to using a new deign to do the same job. Differene in size for the platform does not matter all the time.

I know what you're saying, and I'm telling you that from a mechanical engineering standpoint a "giant Alpha" isn't going to have more than a tiny fraction of parts in common with the tiny "regular Alpha". Like the F/A-18E/F, it's going to be largely new components and almost the entire plane (re)designed from scratch.

Colonel Wolfe wrote: the VF-1 cannot and does-not make Atmospheric re-entry with external ordinances or F.A.S.T packs added. Period.

You cannot factually state that it cannot re-enter with external ordnance. You CAN factually state it does not since we only see one example of this occurring. The FAST Packs are still debatable as there is no reason for Rick to keep them attached so we do not know. Making factual claims based on a singe re-entry seen is ridiculous.

You know...they never show a toilet in the show...I am going to now state no one in the Robotech universe has to go to relieve themself.

Chris0013 wrote:You know...they never show a toilet in the show...I am going to now state no one in the Robotech universe has to go to relieve themself.

Well, the Zentraedi do(that's where Max ambushes the guy whose uniform he steals, leaving the guy draped over the throne ). It's not immediately clear, though in the shot where Max's VF camera view pans around you can see the toilet(the lineart for the scene clearly shows a toilet).

And the three Zent spies go into a public restroom when they first get to the SDF-1 after they steal clothes.

jaymz wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote: the VF-1 cannot and does-not make Atmospheric re-entry with external ordinances or F.A.S.T packs added. Period.

You cannot factually state that it cannot re-enter with external ordnance. You CAN factually state it does not since we only see one example of this occurring. The FAST Packs are still debatable as there is no reason for Rick to keep them attached so we do not know. Making factual claims based on a singe re-entry seen is ridiculous.

All one needs to provide is a single clip of Animation that shows it can happen, or a dialog refrence where they mention its possible, and its true, otherwise as this is a Fictional device, and its capabilities must be shown in the show for them to exist. you Never see it happen in the show, thus it never happens in the show. and its an un-safe assumption to say that it can happen, just you never-ever see it...

Chris0013:: You know...they never show a toilet in the show...I am going to now state no one in the Robotech universe has to go to relieve themself.

this is absurd, 1 the VF-1 isnt a real-world item, thus is Capabilities can only be explained via the content and context of the show. Saying the Vf-1 can do somehting it never does in the show, is Fanon, and an unsafe assumption. Humans do exist in the Real world, thus I can more Easily assume they do use the bathroom similarly to how we do, and they are born and die like we do, and many other things just like we do. now the Invid may not have toilets.. or poop... or eat bacon. since they are fictional... what they can and cannot do is defined via the context of the show.
because we all know Real-world Planes re-enter the atmosphere all the time with Bombs and explosives being exposed to the heat and friction of re-entry, and survive right???

And none of the Official ROBOTECH source state that its possible. not the Infopedia, not the 1 Canon art book. if it happens in the comics, then it may be true. but saying because 1 thing is true in the OSM, and thus HAS to be true in Roboteh is silly at best. ALOT of things in Robotech are true that aren't in the OSM, nor should every fact from the OSM be true in Robotech. if we except the OSM detaisl as Canon Facts for Robotech.... the Zentradie in Robotech are Fighting the "Souper-Version" Army.... and were created by the Race of Protoculture... not the Robotech Masters.

Chris0013 wrote:You know...they never show a toilet in the show...I am going to now state no one in the Robotech universe has to go to relieve themself.

Oh yes, we can have some fun with this...

taalismn wrote:Well, the Zentraedi do(that's where Max ambushes the guy whose uniform he steals, leaving the guy draped over the throne ). It's not immediately clear, though in the shot where Max's VF camera view pans around you can see the toilet(the lineart for the scene clearly shows a toilet).

Tiree wrote:And the three Zent spies go into a public restroom when they first get to the SDF-1 after they steal clothes.

But... as the moon logic behind the idea that the VF-1 can't effect a reentry with its weapons attached goes, unless someone is actually shown using the toilet then there's no actual evidence that anyone in the Robotech universe needs to answer nature. It's true that toilets exist in Robotech, just as it's true that a VF-1 can reenter the Earth's atmosphere, but we can't say anything about the specific circumstances of their use other than what we see in the show.

Therefore, if the animation does not show us a VF-1 reentering the atmosphere with its weapons affixed and we cannot draw on official sources outside the animation that very definitely say that it can, we likewise must conclude that nobody in Robotech has the biological need to relieve themselves because the only use toilets are put to in the series is as a place to change clothes and/or mug people for the purpose of stealing their clothes to wear for infiltration purposes. In order to reach any other conclusions about the uses of a toilet in Robotech or the biological need to eliminate bodily waste, we'd have to go to sources outside of the series itself like real world knowledge of human anatomy... which is out-of-bounds, according to the proponents of the no-armed-reentry theory.

Thus, there is no viable evidence to support the contention that anyone living in the Robotech universe has the requisite biology or biological need to pinch a loaf.


EDIT: Turnabout is, as they say, fair play.

Chris0013 wrote:You know...they never show a toilet in the show...I am going to now state no one in the Robotech universe has to go to relieve themself.

things we alos never see them do.
have sex.
give birth
die of old age.
die of diseases
die from falling off a cliff into the grand canyon.
being we never see Miryia pregnant.. its safe to assume that Dana just appeared, and they took her in as their daughter (same for Maya)
Actually we never see Dana Grow up, so we can assume she grew into adulthood over night
we never see Roy, Lunk, Lancer (many more) as Teans/Children/babies... so we can assume they have always been adults.
Annie is never shown to grow up.. so she will be 13 forever.
the List of Absurd Ideas can be endless... just because the VF-1 is never shown to do something, that no real-wold plane can do... so we should assume that no Human in Robotech is ANYthing like a human in the real world.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Chris0013 wrote:You know...they never show a toilet in the show...I am going to now state no one in the Robotech universe has to go to relieve themself.

Oh yes, we can have some fun with this...

finally ....someone who got the joke.

What's Truly funny about this Discussion.... in the Veritech Hover-tank thread... where it is mentioned the VHT can fire its main cannon 8 times in 15 seconds... but the RPG says 2x per 15 seconds.. the same posters who advocate giving the VF-1 new abilities not seen in the show, say the VHT is written correctly in the RPG...

Colonel Wolfe wrote:What's Truly funny about this Discussion.... in the Veritech Hover-tank thread... where it is mentioned the VHT can fire its main cannon 8 times in 15 seconds... but the RPG says 2x per 15 seconds.. the same posters who advocate giving the VF-1 new abilities not seen in the show, say the VHT is written correctly in the RPG...

Not surprising, 'No really, X should have this but Y shouldn't have that' is pretty much to be expected as one feels certain X and Y are totally different and so their arguments don't have to be the same between the two. Especially when you're arguing what is and isn't possible in a particular anime and people are certain only their conclusions are accurate.

In regards to the issue of reentry while carrying exposed missiles, just because it's an anime with futuristic technology doesn't mean that they've had to have solved the RL issues regarding the impossibility of such. If the anime never shows it you can't insist it's possible because you haven't anything to support the claim that they must be able to make it work. You need something to work off of other than 'well they're so advanced they must have been able to do it' because that's simply not a given. Just being more advanced doesn't mean you've solved or can solve all issues.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:What's Truly funny about this Discussion.... in the Veritech Hover-tank thread... where it is mentioned the VHT can fire its main cannon 8 times in 15 seconds... but the RPG says 2x per 15 seconds.. the same posters who advocate giving the VF-1 new abilities not seen in the show, say the VHT is written correctly in the RPG...

Then you have me who isn't in favour of 8 shots a melee and also isn't in favour of exposed ordinance during atmospheric entry.