Top militaries soilder for soilder wise .. your opinions ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

So your ultra powerful, unbeatable force..... whom can take anyone in the universe..... are too stupid or lazy to move back to their homeland in over 40 years? I don't buy it. Is moving a city hard? sure, but it can't even approach the difficulty of rifting out a billion fleeing refugees while under attack by the Mechinoids out numbered 100 to 1.

I agree completely with this sentiment, and actually your arguments all the way. Someone else said it quite well: KC wins... fatality.

.They've had 40 years. How long could that take to move?

40 years wandering the wasteland and waiting for their promised land? This is getting rather needlessly biblical.... or it could just be a coincidence

when Hitler started his gig, we went over there and put foot to ass.

Unless you're in the UK or the Commonwealth, the answer is 'no you bloody well didn't'.

*Grins* That was actually me, not KC though KC has come through with alot of really good stuff lately. This little tiny bit is mine.

And 2, here I thought the US bloody well did kick ass in WWII.... I've seen the movies!! lol

[Nightmask]

So your ultra powerful, unbeatable force..... whom can take anyone in the universe..... are too stupid or lazy to move back to their homeland in over 40 years? I don't buy it. Is moving a city hard? sure, but it can't even approach the difficulty of rifting out a billion fleeing refugees while under attack by the Mechinoids out numbered 100 to 1.

I agree completely with this sentiment, and actually your arguments all the way. Someone else said it quite well: KC wins... fatality.

Sorry but still just a loser in this. A ) it is NOT there homeland, it's a parallel Earth which they're quite aware of, B ) the entire planet is a warzone, C ) these are intelligent and cautious people who aren't going to go and do anything in haste, D ) there are hundreds of factions all over the place and you don't go doing anything if you're a smart military man without intelligence and it takes time to gather, and E ) things with the Mechanoids was a straightforward deal of Us Vs Them, they had clearly defined goals dealing with protection and evacuation. They aren't being either stupid or lazy, because if that's how someone defines it then the leader of the New Navy has been even dumber and lazier since he's been around since around the time of the Cataclysm and hasn't made any effort to 'move back home' and it IS his Earth.

.They've had 40 years. How long could that take to move?

40 years wandering the wasteland and waiting for their promised land? This is getting rather needlessly biblical.... or it could just be a coincidence

It also holds the erroneous notion that for some reason these displaced people would just up and go 'hey we're on Earth and even though it's not our Earth and the US here was eliminated as a nation centuries ago we need to immediately pack up and move to North America just because'.

when Hitler started his gig, we went over there and put foot to ass.

Unless you're in the UK or the Commonwealth, the answer is 'no you bloody well didn't'.

As someone who actually has bothered looking at the history as well I know quite well we were fine with letting Hitler burn all of Europe, having a 'not our problem' attitude and only got involved when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Since Japan was allied with Hitler we logically had to go after him too. Otherwise we didn't care if Hitler wiped out England and everyone else as long as we were left alone.

The Megaversal Legion is based in South America, and the place is one seriously fortified area. You don't pack up a permanent fortification and just up and move it on a whim. One place is as good as any with regards to where to operate out of, particularly with the kind of transportation that they've got available. There are also plenty of local threats to worry about, like the Vampire Kingdoms, and local humans being oppressed and murdered. They can't be running around getting involved in everything especially without some idea as to which side if any they ought to be on. They may be the Megaversal Legion but they're still finite in numbers and can't be spreading themselves thin or worse jumping into things blind and making things even worse (you don't want to take out a lesser evil that's been holding a greater evil in check before you take out the greater evil, not unless you want to make things worse by removing the check on the greater evil).

[Killer Cyborg]

Wait a sec.
Assuming that 3 missiles are taken out for every [4] counter battery missiles, 500 missiles would require 167 tanks?
I'm guessing that you're going with the Neo-Abrams Main Battle tank, and counting each launcher into the equation, so each tank gets 4 counter-missile attacks?

I am assuming three attacks each with a 4 missile volleys from a Neo-Abrams. 3 times 167 equals 501.

WildWalker

Somehow, that made things more confusing.

But it looks like you're counting all four missile launchers on the tank, yes?

[Pepsi Jedi]

So your ultra powerful, unbeatable force..... whom can take anyone in the universe..... are too stupid or lazy to move back to their homeland in over 40 years? I don't buy it. Is moving a city hard? sure, but it can't even approach the difficulty of rifting out a billion fleeing refugees while under attack by the Mechinoids out numbered 100 to 1.

I agree completely with this sentiment, and actually your arguments all the way. Someone else said it quite well: KC wins... fatality.

Sorry but still just a loser in this.

Stretchin' hard aren't you?

A ) it is NOT there homeland, it's a parallel Earth which they're quite aware of

It's still the remnants of north America and the United States. a United states that shared the history where the ML came from up to (( and past)) the point the ML left earth. It's not like it's Suddenly Russia.

, B ) the entire planet is a warzone,

No. The planet is wild and dangerous but war doesn't cover the entire planet. Not even most of the US. The tolkeen war, the biggest one in NA was still pretty contained. There's plenty of room in NA to build your community.

And remember Nightmask. These are the ML. You think they're the best in the megaverse. They're not even scared of the Mechinoids!

C ) these are intelligent and cautious people who aren't going to go and do anything in haste,

There's "Not in haste" then there's "Absurdly slow" They've got flying power armor. out of 300,000 combat troops they presumeably have recon units. They can fly up and scout an area. They just don't. "40 years" is way beyond a Treebeard "Don't be hasty"

D ) there are hundreds of factions all over the place and you don't go doing anything if you're a smart military man without intelligence and it takes time to gather,

40 years? What are they going to act sometime in the next few centuries? Intel? Sure. Send your scouts up. Get some then act. In the 40 years, the factions you're talking about are all changing. Coming, going, strengthening, weakening... and sides. Again. You think the ML are better than everyone oin the planet and have said they can take out the CS's MILLIONS of troops. What faction are they going to be scared by Nightmask?

and E ) things with the Mechanoids was a straightforward deal of Us Vs Them, they had clearly defined goals dealing with protection and evacuation. They aren't being either stupid or lazy, because if that's how someone defines it then the leader of the New Navy has been even dumber and lazier since he's been around since around the time of the Cataclysm and hasn't made any effort to 'move back home' and it IS his Earth.

The new Navy has their base. it goes where they want it and they've taken it upon themselves to be the shepherds of the seas. But then you're not argueing that the new Navy could take out the CS in about 5 minutes. You ARE saying the ML could do it. That they're so umber powerful it wouldn't even be hard. So if they're SOOOO Awesome. Why don't they?

You're now saying this super umber undefeatable power hasn't retaken the US and put a stop to the CS.. and has let the CS grow for 40 YEARS so.. they could gather intelligence.. what? on population growth in the CS? Intelligence gathering for 4 decades?

They can evac an entire billion person planetary population while outnumbered 100 to one byy a force you say is better than everyone BUT the Ml..... but.. they can't move their military a few thousand miles and set up a base? Strange duality.

.They've had 40 years. How long could that take to move?

40 years wandering the wasteland and waiting for their promised land? This is getting rather needlessly biblical.... or it could just be a coincidence

It also holds the erroneous notion that for some reason these displaced people would just up and go 'hey we're on Earth and even though it's not our Earth and the US here was eliminated as a nation centuries ago we need to immediately pack up and move to North America just because'.

Sure beats hanging around in some south american jungle. I know I'd want to go home.

when Hitler started his gig, we went over there and put foot to ass.

Unless you're in the UK or the Commonwealth, the answer is 'no you bloody well didn't'.

As someone who actually has bothered looking at the history as well I know quite well we were fine with letting Hitler burn all of Europe, having a 'not our problem' attitude and only got involved when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Since Japan was allied with Hitler we logically had to go after him too. Otherwise we didn't care if Hitler wiped out England and everyone else as long as we were left alone.

Wow..... that's almost criminally misrepresenting it.. but..

The point remains..

WE DID GO OVER AND KICK HIS ASS. You can try and wave your hands and hide it but fact was... we did. So... maybe you should read the rest of the history book. You know.. when we came in and eventually ended the war.

The Megaversal Legion is based in South America, and the place is one seriously fortified area.

It is? how so? Looks like there's even more warring factions down there.

You don't pack up a permanent fortification and just up and move it on a whim.

Why not? if you have the ability, why exist in some god forsaken foreign jungle when you can just go home?

One place is as good as any with regards to where to operate out of,

You clearlly have no tie to your country or land of birth. One place is NOT as good as another. When one isn't your home.

particularly with the kind of transportation that they've got available.

They can rift out a BILLION Aliens... --- under fire---- by a force 100 times their size... in 19 hours... off an entire planet...... but can't move.... 300,000.... at all?

Wow... they must be ------------------------------a lot------------------------------- weaker than you're making out there Nightmask.

There are also plenty of local threats to worry about, like the Vampire Kingdoms, and local humans being oppressed and murdered.

So you don't set up in the South West. You can get just as far "north" of the vampire kingdoms as they are currenly south.

They can't be running around getting involved in everything especially without some idea as to which side if any they ought to be on

40 years of intelligence gathering? Are they mentally retarded Nightmask? Because if you can't figure it out in 40 years.. you must be. Right?

They may be the Megaversal Legion but they're still finite in numbers and can't be spreading themselves thin or worse jumping into things blind and making things even worse

So 4 decades isn't enough to figure stuff out? How stupid are they Nightmask? As for spreading themselves thin,.... they routinly ship 5/6ths of their force off planet. They could bring them home and if they're as powerful as you think. Knock over the problems pretty quick. You thiink they can take out the most powerful nation in NA in 5 minutes. How long would it take them to get rid of the rest of the threats? 45 seconds?

(you don't want to take out a lesser evil that's been holding a greater evil in check before you take out the greater evil, not unless you want to make things worse by removing the check on the greater evil).

So the ML can't take out the greater evil then the lessor one? You say they're soooo strong. Which is it?

because in this post you've pointed out they've lost the ability to move people, when they moved over a billion off a planet in less than a day, but it's taken more than 40 years to move 300,000 a few thousand miles.

you've said they're so dumb that they can't put together recon intelligence in FORTY YEARS.

And that, while you maintain they're strong enough to take out the CS in five minutes, they're too scared to do so, least something else kill them, or all the little dinky thhings that run FROM the cs... Scare the ML


That's a really weird view of your favorite group there.

[Killer Cyborg]

For that matter, why does the Megaversal Legions stay on Rifts Earth at all?
Can't they leave this dimension and maybe find someplace better?
Their home dimension?
Some unpopulated world that they can use as a home base?

[Natasha]

when Hitler started his gig, we went over there and put foot to ass.

Unless you're in the UK or the Commonwealth, the answer is 'no you bloody well didn't'.

As someone who actually has bothered looking at the history as well I know quite well we were fine with letting Hitler burn all of Europe, having a 'not our problem' attitude and only got involved when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Since Japan was allied with Hitler we logically had to go after him too. Otherwise we didn't care if Hitler wiped out England and everyone else as long as we were left alone.

Wow..... that's almost criminally misrepresenting it.. but..

The point remains..

WE DID GO OVER AND KICK HIS ASS. You can try and wave your hands and hide it but fact was... we did. So... maybe you should read the rest of the history book. You know.. when we came in and eventually ended the war.

The statement "Otherwise we didn't care if Hitler wiped out England and everyone else as long as we were left alone" is astonishingly inaccurate, however, "when we came in and eventually ended the war" is also a misrepresentation.

Of course, when I was in school we were taught that Stalin kicked Hitler's ass. Americans are apparently taught that it was the Americans. Certainly the infusion of relatively fresh troops, like in WWI, was significant.

The truth, as usual, is a little more complicated than "you didn't, we did". That said, however, the Soviet military had rolled all the way to Berlin from Russia and the nearest Americans to the Battle of Berlin were some 85 kilometres away.

[Mack]

Let's leave WWII in the past, and keep this to a Rifts discussion.

[Comrade Corsarius]

*edited to comply with Mack's request*


If I were suddenly plucked via a rift and deposited in rifts earth, one of the first things I'd do is to try and find somewhere to call home. One of the first places I'd look would be where I used to call 'home'. So braving all kinds of perils, I'd get myself to New Brisbane, and probably settle there because it's actually rather nice according to the books. Now even if I were in the Silver River Republics, or Germany, or the Coalition States, and somehow had a good time there, I'd still rather go and see what's going on at 'home', and do something about it if it's not nice. That goes double if I have a legion of technological warriors who all have a similar mindset behind me.

[Nightmask]

*edited to comply with Mack's request*


If I were suddenly plucked via a rift and deposited in rifts earth, one of the first things I'd do is to try and find somewhere to call home. One of the first places I'd look would be where I used to call 'home'. So braving all kinds of perils, I'd get myself to New Brisbane, and probably settle there because it's actually rather nice according to the books. Now even if I were in the Silver River Republics, or Germany, or the Coalition States, and somehow had a good time there, I'd still rather go and see what's going on at 'home', and do something about it if it's not nice. That goes double if I have a legion of technological warriors who all have a similar mindset behind me.

Except that the legion of warriors don't have a similar mindset to yours. They didn't even know they were on an Earth until 'recently', and they know it's not 'their' Earth but one with a similar history up to the point of the Cataclysm. They're also military personnel, people who even before being impressed into the Megaversal Legion were used to traveling and home being wherever their base was at. They know the whole planet is messed up and North America is in no better shape, and given the kinds of things running around on Rifts Earth unless you're an insane kill-crazy monster you'd have to be a moron to just go 'gee let's just pack up and head over to the former US just because we're former American soldiers'.

No, as seasoned military men they're doing the cautious and intelligent approach. They aren't blinded with arrogance over their successes to go wading into situations without reasonable intelligence. You don't survive as long as they have doing things like that. No, they're exploring, getting the lay of the land so as to do a proper tactical assessment of things. You know, one of those failures on the part of the CS when it attacked Tolkeen and helped contribute to them needing nearly six years to beat a small kingdom with their flashy new upgrades.

[Killer Cyborg]

But it looks like you're counting all four missile launchers on the tank, yes?

Sorry. Let me try again. Neo Abrams has two 10 missile medium range missile launchers (20 missiles total) able to fire any combination divisible by two as a single volley. I am notcounting the mini-missile launchers. Assuming some skill, but not massive skill, I am assuming 3 attacks per round for the gunner controlling the missile launchers. That means 12 missiles per tank (in volleys of 4), in three attacks on three different targets multiplied by 167 Neo-Abrams would be 501 automatic hard kills vs 500 incoming missiles creating a furious nuclear inferno that would impress even the most jaded otaku.

Okay- I was a single round of attacks, not a single melee round.
That's were were missing each other.

And before any one screams EMP, we have the ability to harden equipment NOW to a nuclear EMP... saying that the Legion has the same ability is not unreasonable.

ICBMs have a 25% chance to knock out hardened electronics with their EMP, according to the CS Navy book.

Probably the fastest thing is if you review this old thread, where I get into the CS's nuclear capability against a Naruni spaceship:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=117766

[Pepsi Jedi]

*edited to comply with Mack's request*


If I were suddenly plucked via a rift and deposited in rifts earth, one of the first things I'd do is to try and find somewhere to call home. One of the first places I'd look would be where I used to call 'home'. So braving all kinds of perils, I'd get myself to New Brisbane, and probably settle there because it's actually rather nice according to the books. Now even if I were in the Silver River Republics, or Germany, or the Coalition States, and somehow had a good time there, I'd still rather go and see what's going on at 'home', and do something about it if it's not nice. That goes double if I have a legion of technological warriors who all have a similar mindset behind me.

Except that the legion of warriors don't have a similar mindset to yours.

But they are. They were US troops in the army. They have the mindset of US Army troops. Not some alien beings that are unable to be understood. Thheir mindsets were SIMILAR to ours. in that.. 1) they were human and 2) Americans.

They didn't even know they were on an Earth until 'recently', and they know it's not 'their' Earth but one with a similar history up to the point of the Cataclysm.

Still Earth.

Still had an America.

An America that was 100% indentical to the one they were in, at the time of their departure.

They're still American Army troops, born and bred in the US, to love mom and baseball and apple pie!

They're also military personnel, people who even before being impressed into the Megaversal Legion were used to traveling and home being wherever their base was at.

You very clearly are not military and don't live in a military family. Yes, the military man goes where he's stationed but home is always HOME. Those troops aren't just there to get out of the house. They're there, standing the line between us and those that would harm us. They do it to serve their country and the people they love.

The US army is NOT just a mercenary company. Before they were kidnapped and forced into the ML they were not homless warriors and Mercenaries. That's just crap.

They know the whole planet is messed up and North America is in no better shape,

Home is still home. To 100% discount that is to discount human nature. Again these aren't aliens that landed "Some place" on Rifts and just went 'Call 'er good' and set up shop. They're US troops returning to earth after a cataclysim. They'd want to return home and try and rebuild there.

and given the kinds of things running around on Rifts Earth unless you're an insane kill-crazy monster you'd have to be a moron to just go 'gee let's just pack up and head over to the former US just because we're former American soldiers'.

Why? Cuz there's no monsters in South America? Oh waitt. There are.

You know what South America has a severe lack of? United States citizens or their descendants. Or the land of your birth. Or the ruins of the city you grew up in. The land you rew up on. Ect.

Again you're 100% divorcing any association with "home" From the human condition. And while it's true thhat some people are vagabonds by nature, most aren't. Most are born, live, grow up and die in a pretty small area.

MOST people born in the US die in the US, and their kids are born in the US and die in the US. You're arguement is pretty silly for anyone that's.. you know... actually been human.

Are there odd cases out? Sure. Some people move far far away to escape what they were born into. Some choose to live in other counries. But those are the exceptions to the rules. Not the standard. Not by A long shot.

No, as seasoned military men they're doing the cautious and intelligent approach.

Oh gimme a break. They're not doing ANYTHING. They're sitting up in the mountains in SA and hiring themselves out as Mercs. Nothing more. They're a non entity in a book that was an indulgance to a friend of the companies owner.

They aren't blinded with arrogance over their successes

One success to be named. It's you that say they can easily take any army or group on earth with out any trouble. Not 'them'.

to go wading into situations without reasonable intelligence.

How many DECADES of intelligence do they need nightmask? They've had 40 years. The CS is just growing every year. So are the other populations on earth. They're not geting smaller. How many years and decades are they going to gather intell before they act?

Needing intell I can totally see. I can understand that. They've had 40 years.. the intell they got 5 years ago would be ouut of date. Much less the intell they got 10 years ago.. .15 years ago... 20....25..... 30.... 35... and 40 years ago.

"They're waiting till they have reasonable intell" Is stupid. I'm sorry it's a stupid statement. You don't recon for 40 years before you act. If you have the power and ability to carry out a planetary evacuation when faced with 100 to 1 odds in under a day.

You don't survive as long as they have doing things like that.

Well if they wait more than FORTY YEARS to do anything... it seems they survive as long as they have by being scardy cats and not doing anything.

No, they're exploring, getting the lay of the land so as to do a proper tactical assessment of things.

For generations? They're getting the lay of the land over multiple generations? They're taking decades to get a tactical assessment.. when those things change over time? The CS is many times larger than it was 40 years go. So are most of the places in NA. None of them are "That old" They all crawled up out of the ashes about 100 years ago or less.

Do you do a tactical assessment? Sure.Do you take 4 decades to do so? No.

You know, one of those failures on the part of the CS when it attacked Tolkeen and helped contribute to them needing nearly six years to beat a small kingdom with their flashy new upgrades.

CS still won. Fighting against armies of demons that came out of nowhere, dragons, all manner of magical opponits and mercenaries. The CS still won.

It's YOU nightmask that said that the ML Could take the CS in 5 minutes. Are you changing your mind to "They need more than 40 YEARS of intelligencce before they even do anything in NA. Much less take on the CS"

That's a radical change.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Wait a sec.
Assuming that 3 missiles are taken out for every [4] counter battery missiles, 500 missiles would require 167 tanks?
I'm guessing that you're going with the Neo-Abrams Main Battle tank, and counting each launcher into the equation, so each tank gets 4 counter-missile attacks?

I am assuming three attacks each with a 4 missile volleys from a Neo-Abrams. 3 times 167 equals 501.

WildWalker

Somehow, that made things more confusing.

But it looks like you're counting all four missile launchers on the tank, yes?

Sorry. Let me try again. Neo Abrams has two 10 missile medium range missile launchers (20 missiles total) able to fire any combination divisible by two as a single volley. I am notcounting the mini-missile launchers. Assuming some skill, but not massive skill, I am assuming 3 attacks per round for the gunner controlling the missile launchers. That means 12 missiles per tank (in volleys of 4), in three attacks on three different targets multiplied by 167 Neo-Abrams would be 501 automatic hard kills vs 500 incoming missiles creating a furious nuclear inferno that would impress even the most jaded otaku.

And before any one screams EMP, we have the ability to harden equipment NOW to a nuclear EMP... saying that the Legion has the same ability is not unreasonable.

Did that clear it up? If not I'll try again.

All of this is, of course, assuming the Legion does not have a dedicated anti-missile defense... which seems unlikely considering the Arkon Ghost Wasp and Spikefish can be configured as a long range missile launch platforms and they have a reputation for bombing the locals when they can get away with it.

WildWalker

So... you send in a scout rat (( or a few hundred of them)) To count the number of tanks on duty at all times.

Your calculate the number of missiles they'll put up to take out incoming ICBMs.

You build enough dummy missiles to take out that number of 'anti missile missiles'. Pluss 20%

You launch that dummy flight with a few high explosive bombs mixed in for a good ligght show.

BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM. the ML shoots down that wave of missiles. Whoo hoo. Yeah us...

Then the second wave of missiles with the real nukes on board.. the ones you launched a few minutes after your diversion flight.. come down. The Mega tanks (( I looked um up. I gotta say.. I want one. lol they're nice!)) are depleted of medium range missiles.

And the base is nuked into oblivion. And all the 'threat' the CS has endured is if some of their little spy rat robots got caught.

Expensive? Sure. More expensive than ferrying the army down to SA to kick the ML's butt, and losing troops and stuff? naw.

As we've seen, the CS has pretty unlimited money when it comes to munitions and war machines. (( Like it or loathe it, it's very well established))

Now.. is that a some what simplistic answer? Yeah. it is. It's not meant to come across jerky. But it IS the sort of thing the CS would do. They don't want to go face to face withh those guys so far from home. it's alot easier to just nuke um from afar. That's why 'Nukes" are so often a game ender in games. Because there's not really anything you can do if the other side has them. At best you can hope for a MAD situation, but.... we don't have that. CS is the only kid on the block with them andd they ARE just nuts enough to whip them out and use um.

[Natasha]

Soilder for soilder .. (not who has the biggest)

Which militaries currently active on Rifts earth .. Has thee best Military soilder for soilder .. equipment wise an everything .

Whats your guys opinions ?

This "guy"'s opinion is that it's the Germans*. Constant combat will hone the military from the individual soldier's experience to the combat services to the logistical arms of the military. The CS would have gained a lot from its war but it just doesn't seem to be focused on precision and efficiency.

Of course, being the best doesn't mean you're going to win. History is replete with such surprises.

* I don't know a whole lot about Rifts Earth. I run a campaign in the baronies, played in Mexico and Russia, and I've not read much beyond the old main book and RUE.

[Lenwen]

After skimming threw the upper half of the thread allow me to debate.
1)- Yes the Cs would try to launch nukes. But shall we take a look at real in game details pro Cs people seem to be trying to ignore?
A)- The cs has no clue where to launch their nukes..
B)- The cs will have to deal with a megaversal legion that knows direct coordinates for the the cs fortress cities. Edge.. Mega legions

2)- some one wanted to say why have they not moved back to America? After 40 yes?
A)- Why place your most valuable commodities( factories) anywhere in reach of some one like the cs ?

B)- Keeeping your factories out of danger is thee smart military move when fighting a known hostile force.( if you guys can not agree to that then no offence but your clearly not thinking threw a military mindset.)

3)- some one said they could move a billion people while being attacked by the noise why can they not move to north America?

A)- They utilize a technological means to travel the world's. With that ability why keep your super factories near enemies?

B)- since when have buildings sprouted legs to move snakes like a billion people?

[Lenwen]

I know the legion can and has fought in wars they have won even when they held no advantages. As kc has stated lets look at stats...
have the cs ever been in a war where they were the under dog ever? No never in their entire collective history have the cs ever been the under dog in any prolonged military campaign.

Not only has the legion done so but in many of their military campaigns they in fact were the under dogs..

..I have already brought up the coalition will not go to war with any power it feels actually has a real chance at beating them.

With out the advantage of higher technology, And vast numbers( never have they been the ones out numbered in a military war.. in thirty collective history)
With out those advantages the cs will not fight you.

The legion has taken on better militaries then the cs won.. and moved on to the next campaign or theater of war.

Until some one came convince me otherwise about the cs and it's advantage linked military history.. that they are as good or better then the legions. I hold fast to my current stance( and correct) that the legion is just heads and shoulders above the cs.

[Lenwen]

Something more then no they are not...

Something more then they have not moved back to north America..

I mean come on people were talking about a military not roger ward north america..

Them moving to north america has zero to do with how good of a soilder each is.. stop reaching.

[Killer Cyborg]

By the way, I take the silence regarding the ML's fight against the Mechanoids to be reluctant admittance that I'm right that it's not proof of their supremacy?
That surviving 19 hours against a foe that routinely takes several months to polish off its enemy is NOT actually that huge of an accomplishment?

[Killer Cyborg]

By the way, I take the silence regarding the ML's fight against the Mechanoids to be reluctant admittance that I'm right that it's not proof of their supremacy?
That surviving 19 hours against a foe that routinely takes several months to polish off its enemy is NOT actually that huge of an accomplishment?

Hey KC! I'll bite!

Given a choice between 100,000 Legion soldiers and the same CS vs Mechanoids I'll take the Legion.

Same here.
NOT really the issue.
The question is not whether the Legion is better than the CS, but whether that scenario is specific evidence that the Legion is really awesome in some way.

[Lenwen]

By the way, I take the silence regarding the ML's fight against the Mechanoids to be reluctant admittance that I'm right that it's not proof of their supremacy?
That surviving 19 hours against a foe that routinely takes several months to polish off its enemy is NOT actually that huge of an accomplishment?

I do not have the mechan boo kill s so i can not speak on or against that. But i have noticed you do not want anything to do woth the side topic of the cs not fighting anyone who tjey think could lose to..

[Pepsi Jedi]

Like many of your posts, your 'points' are largely speculation with little fact.

After skimming threw the upper half of the thread allow me to debate.
1)- Yes the Cs would try to launch nukes. But shall we take a look at real in game details pro Cs people seem to be trying to ignore?
A)- The cs has no clue where to launch their nukes.

Facts not in evidence. The CS has military intelligence and long range scouting capability. the ML has a shop in Merc Town. The CS have people in Merc town. Butother than you saying so, there's no evidence that the CS doesn't know where ML is located.

If they're going to war...... And trying to kill one another....One would think there's a reason..... Granted this is a 'hypothetical' thread but hopefully there's some sort of reason that they're doing so. Also, hypothetically.... they'll have gathered intelligence before declairing war with no idea what or why. This is a silly point.

B)- The cs will have to deal with a megaversal legion that knows direct coordinates for the the cs fortress cities. Edge.. Mega legions

So what are they gonna do? Lay Seige to one of the Megacities? That pretty much tells the rest of the CS where they are. The Legion doesn't have nukes. While it's true that the megacities are pretty well known and easy to find if you're looking, it's not like the ML is going to storm the gates.

2)- some one wanted to say why have they not moved back to America? After 40 yes?
A)- Why place your most valuable commodities( factories) anywhere in reach of some one like the cs ?

Because it's your home. It's what you know. it's where you grew up. It's the country you loved and were willing to fight and die fore (( before you were kidnapped)). It's ---HOME---.

You guys are acting like that's no big deal. It's absurd.

So is saying they're not going to move back because they'd be in the reach of the CS. They're in reachof the CS now. ICBMs fly far you know. Death's Head transports can as well.

Also, the one's trumpeting the Ml have stated they could take out the entire CS in five minutes. If they honestly beleive that, then where's all this sudden fear of the CS coming from? It seems counter-indicated. If they can take out the CS military in 5 minutes why use the CS presence as an excuse as to why they haven't gone home for 4 decades?

B)- Keeeping your factories out of danger is thee smart military move when fighting a known hostile force.( if you guys can not agree to that then no offence but your clearly not thinking threw a military mindset.)

Hiding in the mountains and gathering information for 4 decades is? Come on now.. you're talking about the ML. Why would they fear the CS if they are sooo much better?

And again... You're on earth. You're not out of reach of the CS. You're only in South America. the CS have force projected to Europe to help the NGR in war. They can reach you. lol. Thats' with out even using the nukes... which they simply would.

3)- some one said they could move a billion people while being attacked by the noise why can they not move to north America?

I said they were able to evac a billion people off an entire planet while being attacked byy the Mechinoids. (( What is the noise?)) And out numbered 100 to 1.

A)- They utilize a technological means to travel the world's. With that ability why keep your super factories near enemies?

Why hide from them for 4 decades if you're so much better?

B)- since when have buildings sprouted legs to move snakes like a billion people?

Durr..... You build new ones. lol

Really? "How are the buildings going to walk?" *Shakes head* Seriously? Come on man. get real. You use your troops to scout the US. You find the lay of the land. You find an out of the way spot that's still close enough to what human civilizations/settlements there are. You send one or two of your SIX 50,000 troop armies to go and secure the area. You build your base to house and defend them. You rotate a few more of the armies up.. and you build the city. Then you transfer your civilian population. keeping the SA base and city as a fall back and secondary position.

How are the buildings going to move? Wow. Did you actually think people meant they were going to move the base itself and the buildings? And thenn use the "Since when have buildings sprouted legs to move" as a bullet point? LOL

[Pepsi Jedi]

I know the legion can and has fought in wars they have won even when they held no advantages. As kc has stated lets look at stats...
have the cs ever been in a war where they were the under dog ever? No never in their entire collective history have the cs ever been the under dog in any prolonged military campaign.

What about the one that started up the CS, where they rallyed against the Federation of magic, and turned the war thath ad reached all the way up too proto-chi town and then chased them back into the Magic Zone?

Not only has the legion done so but in many of their military campaigns they in fact were the under dogs..

Source? Other than one battle with the Mechinoids, where they didn't WIN, but 'ESCAPED' where do you see this? Book and Page please.

..I have already brought up the coalition will not go to war with any power it feels actually has a real chance at beating them.

But you haven't proven it. It's logical that you wouldn't purposefully start a war to simply die. But you've not proven it like it's some sort of fact. You seem to imply that they're scardy cats or something due to your (( made up)) Thought, but what you're describing is logic.

Lenwen, if we were both at the Palladium Open house.. and you saw me, my size and how I moved, and felt you actually had no real chance of winning a fight with me.. would you pick a fight with me anyway?

When you didn't.... is that cowardice.. or intelligence?

With out the advantage of higher technology, And vast numbers( never have they been the ones out numbered in a military war.. in thirty collective history)

Again, the war that founded them.

With out those advantages the cs will not fight you.

And again... You seem to be complaining that the CS doesnn't reguarly take suicidal risks. what's your point Lenwen? they're not utter morons?

The legion has taken on better militaries then the cs won.. and moved on to the next campaign or theater of war.

Really? When? Where have they taken on better Militaries and won. SHOW US.

GIVE ME A BOOK AND A PAGE shhowing the ML Taking on better militaries and won. Don't just ignore it. SHOW us. Prove your words. You say it, but it's not in the books. You throw it out there like it's some irrefutable fact.

GIVE ME A BOOK AND PAGE TO PROVE IT. Even the 'famous battle' with the mechinoids, he ML lost 3 and a half times more people in percentages and didn't 'WIN" they "Escaped" which is very different. the Mechinoids got the planet. the ML were just abble to get away. That's not winning a war.

Until some one came convince me otherwise about the cs and it's advantage linked military history.. that they are as good or better then the legions. I hold fast to my current stance( and correct) that the legion is just heads and shoulders above the cs.

Well when you just make up crap and refuse to prove it in any way shape or form other than "Lenwen thinks so" It's pretty easy to set your opinion where ever you want. You've not shown any proof of anything Lenwen. You're ratteling off stuff YOU MADE UP, as if it were fact and we're all stupid not to see it.

You just made it up man. lol

Show us the book and page where it says the stuff you've proposed above. Dare ya.

[Pepsi Jedi]

By the way, I take the silence regarding the ML's fight against the Mechanoids to be reluctant admittance that I'm right that it's not proof of their supremacy?
That surviving 19 hours against a foe that routinely takes several months to polish off its enemy is NOT actually that huge of an accomplishment?

Hey KC! I'll bite!

Given a choice between 100,000 Legion soldiers and the same CS vs Mechanoids I'll take the Legion.

The CS would have sacrificed civilians as "acceptable loses". Why do I think so? Jericho's march speaks to the fact that they would sacrifice their own soldiers and the 'burbs speak to how they look at civilians. Even if it had been CS citizens, I think the same can be said looking at how they look at psionics and Dogboys, their protectors... but not equals. Also how they look at their military as more important than their civilians.

So how does that change the equation? Has to do with what you consider acceptable losses. I'm guessing at around 2% military losses the CS would have pulled a retreat with whatever civilians they had saved, accepted the rest as unavoidable losses and been saddened and angered by those awful Mechanoids. Canon says the Legion took 7% losses but did not leave until they'd saved everyone.

WildWalker

This logic doesn't really hold. the ML worked as butchers for 100s of years for an evil force. Killed whom ever they were pointed at. They could have refused and died. Thhey chose to go to war and kill (( Under duress)) Not once or twice... but for 100s of years, they killed at the whim of their evil masters.

Jerichho's march, was military tactics. A sacrifice of the troops because they loved their nation and trusted their general. he didn't march them through there with guns to their heads. They trusted him and followed him through.

[Nightmask]

By the way, I take the silence regarding the ML's fight against the Mechanoids to be reluctant admittance that I'm right that it's not proof of their supremacy?
That surviving 19 hours against a foe that routinely takes several months to polish off its enemy is NOT actually that huge of an accomplishment?

No, you can't take that as proof of anything but someone just simply not wasting effort responding to you anymore. But having seen this post because someone else responded to it I'll repeat: the battle between the Megaversal Legion and the Mechanoids clearly shows that they are the apex fighters of the megaverse. The Mechanoids don't take months killing people and while they enjoy torturing humanoids that's helpless humanoids, if you're fighting back they kill you. They may not take humanoids seriously but they still make sure to kill anyone fighting them as quickly as possible. It's quite clear from the text they were fighting a no-holds-barred battle for survival with the Mechanoids doing everything that they could to get to the planet. Which is exactly what you'd expect them to do. They aren't going to take months on an engagement when they know those vile humanoids are escaping to where they can't find them to kill them, they're going to hit as hard as they can because they're sociopaths driven to kill humanoids and aren't going to let a single victim escape if they can help it.

The CS couldn't even handle Tolkeen without nearly six years and God making it able to win and as I and others have pointed out can't even reasonably claim control over the territory it says is its let alone protect even a small part of Earth from a full-scale Mechanoids fleet for more than a few minutes.

[Killer Cyborg]

By the way, I take the silence regarding the ML's fight against the Mechanoids to be reluctant admittance that I'm right that it's not proof of their supremacy?
That surviving 19 hours against a foe that routinely takes several months to polish off its enemy is NOT actually that huge of an accomplishment?

Hey KC! I'll bite!

Given a choice between 100,000 Legion soldiers and the same CS vs Mechanoids I'll take the Legion.

Same here.
NOT really the issue.
The question is not whether the Legion is better than the CS, but whether that scenario is specific evidence that the Legion is really awesome in some way.

I think the fact that they saved all the civilians speaks to their awesomeness.

The book doesn't say that they saved all the civilians.

CS does not have the same kind of a story and the one that is close (the story of the start of Larsen's Brigade) speaks to the fact that they do not encourage that kind of thinking.
WildWalker

Again, this isn't about the CS.
I'm really not sure why everybody is so obsessed with them in this thread.

[Killer Cyborg]

By the way, I take the silence regarding the ML's fight against the Mechanoids to be reluctant admittance that I'm right that it's not proof of their supremacy?
That surviving 19 hours against a foe that routinely takes several months to polish off its enemy is NOT actually that huge of an accomplishment?

No, you can't take that as proof of anything but someone just simply not wasting effort responding to you anymore. But having seen this post because someone else responded to it I'll repeat: the battle between the Megaversal Legion and the Mechanoids clearly shows that they are the apex fighters of the megaverse.

Actually, if lasting 19 hours against the Mechanoids is THAT impressive, the natives of Gideon E would be 113.6x tougher than the Megaversal Legion- THEY lasted the whole three months.

The Mechanoids don't take months killing people and while they enjoy torturing humanoids that's helpless humanoids, if you're fighting back they kill you.

Cite your sources.
Just for a change.

It's quite clear from the text they were fighting a no-holds-barred battle for survival with the Mechanoids doing everything that they could to get to the planet.

Actually, it's extremely clear that the Mechanoids were NOT abandoning their SOP in order to go all-out in this battle.
The book clearly states that the ML was only outnumbered 100:1.
Unless there were close to 2 billion Megaversal Troopers in the battle, that means that the Mechanoids were only using a fraction of their forces.
There are 192 billion robots alone on the average Mothership (MIT 124).

192,000,000,000/100=1,920,000,000
So just to fight the mechanoids' disposable robot forces at 100:1 odds, there would have to be 1.92 billion Megaversal Troopers in that battle.
At a 7% fatality rate, that would mean that the ML would have lost something like 134,000,000 soldiers in that battle alone.
No WONDER there are only 300k of them left.

They aren't going to take months on an engagement when they know those vile humanoids are escaping to where they can't find them to kill them, they're going to hit as hard as they can because they're sociopaths driven to kill humanoids and aren't going to let a single victim escape if they can help it.

Can you quote the passage that states that the Mechanoids knew that the humans were attempting to evacuate?

The CS couldn't even handle Tolkeen without nearly six years and God making it able to win and as I and others have pointed out can't even reasonably claim control over the territory it says is its let alone protect even a small part of Earth from a full-scale Mechanoids fleet for more than a few minutes.

Blah, blah, blah.
Why is it that you seem to think that the CS are the next in line in power?
There are a lot of other armies out there that are tougher than the CS, soldier-wise.

Heck, how about the Mechanoids?

[Killer Cyborg]

let's break down legion vs CS grunt instead of screaming one is better then the other.

I actually did that already.
And was virtually ignored in favor of people arguing about flavor text.

One person did point out the power of the I-fields, though, which slant the odds very heavily in favor of the Megaversal Trooper, since it means grenades wouldn't be very effective against them.

I don't think I compared skills, though (I can't remember), so let's look at what you have...

Skills; The Grunt wins he get's more skills to start then the legion trooper. The grunt gets 27 total at first level and the legion trooper only gets 22. one point to the grunt.
Cybernetic implants; No debate here this point goes to the Legion as the average grunt of the CS starts with none. point ML
Body Armor; Main body of the CS body armor(CA-4) as of 109 P.A is 100 MDC the Legions (mark 1) main body has 90 MDC with a energy field that will "try" to stop in coming physical attacks but not energy. Point CS grunt as the grunt uses mostly energy weapons by passing the energy field.
Weapons: IAR-20 Inertia Rifle Max damage with the 25% damage reduction is 30 mdc, C-12 Heavy assault rifle max damage is 60 mdc. point CS grunt.

So final score 3 out of 4 to the Coalition grunt.

The thing is, the fact that the Megaversal Troopers are Borgs means that they have enough MDC to withstand the CS Grunt's attacks long enough to kill the grunt.

Compare the Troopers to CS Combat Borgs, though, and things might be different.

[Killer Cyborg]

By the way, I take the silence regarding the ML's fight against the Mechanoids to be reluctant admittance that I'm right that it's not proof of their supremacy?
That surviving 19 hours against a foe that routinely takes several months to polish off its enemy is NOT actually that huge of an accomplishment?

I do not have the mechan boo kill s so i can not speak on or against that.

I quoted the relevant passages, so you can indeed speak on it.

Besides, not having the Mechanoid books hasn't kept you from talking up a storm about them so far.

Why hesitate NOW?

But i have noticed you do not want anything to do woth the side topic of the cs not fighting anyone who tjey think could lose to..

That's because it's too bizarre a complaint for me to really understand.
You think that it's a sign of weakness to not start wars with people who have a good chance of beating you?
Hell, when's the last time the US fought a war against somebody we could have lost to?
WWII, at best, and that's pretty debatable (though let's NOT debate it, as per Mack's request).
Does that mean that the US is weak?
Or just that we're the top dog, and there isn't anybody we stand a reasonable chance of losing to?
OR something in between?

And heck, let's look at the Megaversal Legion's record...
SA 99
The Ojahee run away from a more powerful army in order to become slaves to aliens.

SA 101
One of the Megaversal Legion's "most glorious moments" consisted of fighting the mechanoids just long enough to run away before they were stomped.
And why did they fight the Mechanoids as long as they did?
For the same reason whores service a line of sailors, because their pimps tell them to.

SA 102
The ML used to train at Lake Titicaca, but they found out it was Incan territory so they scampered off, because they didn't want a war with the Incans.

You seem to find their record more impressive than I do, at least in the reckless aggression department that you seem to find so respect-worthy.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Oops.. now you've made KC angry....

You won't like him when he's angry.......

[Pepsi Jedi]

No love for the JAL. Poor, poor Julian. His average soldier could outperform just about any other person in one-on-one...they're Juicers.

Yeah but they're likely discounted because all you have to do is wait a few years and they kick off on their own. *G*

[Killer Cyborg]

No love for the JAL. Poor, poor Julian. His average soldier could outperform just about any other person in one-on-one...they're Juicers.

Hey, somebody mentioned it earlier, and I think they're pretty strong contenders.
A lot of them may not have had great gear, but some of them probably did.
A suit of Gladiator and a Wilk's 457 can go a long way.

[Killer Cyborg]

Every now and again I get a graphic illustration of just how much of a geek I am...

So..hHere I am arguing on a message board about the military efficacy of fictional armies about whom the sum total of data about these armies is written about in less than 100 pages in a game that nobody can agree on how to play.

If that does not define geekdom I'm not sure what does...

WildWalker

Fun, though, ain't it?

[Lenwen]

No love for the JAL. Poor, poor Julian. His average soldier could outperform just about any other person in one-on-one...they're Juicers.

Very well said..

They are one of the very few armies that an entire field army of the coalition decided not t pursue because of the JAL flag they were showing while enrout away from a battle..

And truth be told I think they would be an even more deadly military force then the coalition troop for troop..

And would give even the mighty legion a real battle as opposed to the coalition.

[Lenwen]

No love for the JAL. Poor, poor Julian. His average soldier could outperform just about any other person in one-on-one...they're Juicers.

Hey, somebody mentioned it earlier, and I think they're pretty strong contenders.
A lot of them may not have had great gear, but some of them probably did.
A suit of Gladiator and a Wilk's 457 can go a long way.

They are now among the top two in north america if not tied for first.
I absolutely completely forgot about them lol

[Lenwen]

Might I also say what about the Archie robots?

Shemerians for instance .. i know for a fact they against an equal number of coalition troops would tear them apart.

Your guys thoughts ?

[Lenwen]

Might I also say what about the Archie robots?

Shemerians for instance .. i know for a fact they against an equal number of coalition troops would tear them apart.

Your guys thoughts ?

My thought is you have a hard on against the CS in all things

Truth be told they like it or not are the settings main bad guys. And the games measuring stick to alotta aspects

Their military is the baseline on which i personally measure most against .

[Lenwen]

side note, RAW states CS is the best army in NA, besides ARCHIE robots maybe able to crush a few deadboys but ARCHIE isn't confident enough to think he could win.

And the new sourcebook clearly states that archie could take on the coalition and free quebec and win..

And thats canon.

[Lenwen]

side note, RAW states CS is the best army in NA, besides ARCHIE robots maybe able to crush a few deadboys but ARCHIE isn't confident enough to think he could win.

And the new sourcebook clearly states that archie could take on the coalition and free quebec and win..

And thats canon.

Can you give me the page number I don't remember reading that in the revised sourcebook? also as I said He doesn't have the confidence to think he could win so that fight will never happen.

I cannot remember the exact pg # but yes it is in the new revised source book. And unfortunately i am at mancamp and wont be home with my books till tuesday.

[Lenwen]

Wish i had my books to help out more then just vague memories my friend.

[Killer Cyborg]

Might I also say what about the Archie robots?

Shemerians for instance .. i know for a fact they against an equal number of coalition troops would tear them apart.

Your guys thoughts ?

Shemarrians are tough, but fairly limited.
But including in the rest of Archie's bots... yeah, I think all they'd lack is the numbers, which isn't an issue here.

[Lenwen]

Wish i had my books to help out more then just vague memories my friend.

As do I good sir as do I.

If no one can find it today after work i will head back home and cite you a direct quote and pg #.

[Mack]

side note, RAW states CS is the best army in NA, besides ARCHIE robots maybe able to crush a few deadboys but ARCHIE isn't confident enough to think he could win.

And the new sourcebook clearly states that archie could take on the coalition and free quebec and win..

And thats canon.

Can you give me the page number I don't remember reading that in the revised sourcebook? also as I said He doesn't have the confidence to think he could win so that fight will never happen.

I cannot remember the exact pg # but yes it is in the new revised source book. And unfortunately i am at mancamp and wont be home with my books till tuesday.

We've been through this before. It doesn't say that.

[Lenwen]

Wish i had my books to help out more then just vague memories my friend.

As do I good sir as do I.

If no one can find it today after work i will head back home and cite you a direct quote and pg #.

All I need is page Lenwen, I just need to read it I am off till tomorrow morning and If someone tells me something I missed I have to read it just to figure out how I forgot about it lol.

And here it is in all its glorious detail.

Right now, Archie commands a legion of robots that could decimate any nation on the continent. Taking down Free Quebec or the Coalition States would be a battle, but its probably one the self proclaimed machine god would win.

Also note .. That is prior to the shemerrian book in which thousands more Shemarrian's have literally taken over a vast eastern part of the continent as their "territory" now.

Which also means his production of them will be ramped up just to ensure that he can deal with any possible trouble that may arise in or around his shamerrian territory ..

Does this flat out tell us that Archie would win in a war against the CS ? Probably . Is it a sure fire win ? Nope. But there is a greater degree chance that he would win .. then the CS would win ..

That can not be argued .. even by mods on the board.

[Killer Cyborg]

"Decimate" means "reduce by 1/10th."

[Lenwen]

"Decimate" means "reduce by 1/10th."

And win means win.

[Killer Cyborg]

"Decimate" means "reduce by 1/10th."

And win means win.

That it does.

Just making a side note.
Palladium's point is that they'd win, whether or not they used the proper words to describe it.

[Lenwen]

"Decimate" means "reduce by 1/10th."

And win means win.

That it does.

Just making a side note.
Palladium's point is that they'd win, whether or not they used the proper words to describe it.

And by they .. you obviously mean Archie an Hagen correct ?

[Killer Cyborg]

"Decimate" means "reduce by 1/10th."

And win means win.

That it does.

Just making a side note.
Palladium's point is that they'd win, whether or not they used the proper words to describe it.

And by they .. you obviously mean Archie an Hagen correct ?

Yup.

[Mack]

And here it is in all its glorious detail.

Right now, Archie commands a legion of robots that could decimate any nation on the continent. Taking down Free Quebec or the Coalition States would be a battle, but its probably one the self proclaimed machine god would win.

Now that is a much better quote to work with, and one that can be more easily used. I applaud you for finding it.

[Lenwen]

And here it is in all its glorious detail.

Right now, Archie commands a legion of robots that could decimate any nation on the continent. Taking down Free Quebec or the Coalition States would be a battle, but its probably one the self proclaimed machine god would win.

Now that is a much better quote to work with, and one that can be more easily used. I applaud you for finding it.

Thank you mack.

Do you agree with it or do you disagree with it then ?

[Mack]

Do you agree with it or do you disagree with it then ?

Neither.

My intuition is that the numbers/quantities don't support that statement, and consistency isn't a strong suit of Rifts. I'd have to make a more throrough analysis before I came to any conclusion.

For now, it is what it is.