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Ninjabunny wrote:My point is a human can not be more evil then a demon.

So are you saying that the worst human can't be worse than the best demon?

Or do you have a particular demon in mind?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:My point is a human can not be more evil then a demon.

So are you saying that the worst human can't be worse than the best demon?

Or do you have a particular demon in mind?

--flatline

Nope we can't be worse then a demon , because we can hire a spin doctor.
Why was Johnny a bad man , because he was sexually attacked by a cactus person. Poor Johnny was never the same after. Poor guy

Ninjabunny wrote:

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:My point is a human can not be more evil then a demon.

So are you saying that the worst human can't be worse than the best demon?

Or do you have a particular demon in mind?

--flatline

No not at all like that good sir, What I am saying and have been saying is that the worst human can not be eviler then the worst demon.

Okay, so you claiming that demons have a greater capacity for evil than humans, not that a particular demon is more evil than a particular human. I don't really agree or disagree with it. I figure once you get sufficiently evil, it no longer matters if you're more or less evil than someone or something else. Degrees of evil only matter when you're somewhere in the gray area and everything we've been discussing lately is pretty solidly in the black area, if you accept that metaphor.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:My point is a human can not be more evil then a demon.

So are you saying that the worst human can't be worse than the best demon?

Or do you have a particular demon in mind?

--flatline

No not at all like that good sir, What I am saying and have been saying is that the worst human can not be eviler then the worst demon.

Okay, so you claiming that demons have a greater capacity for evil than humans, not that a particular demon is more evil than a particular human. I don't really agree or disagree with it. I figure once you get sufficiently evil, it no longer matters if you're more or less evil than someone or something else. Degrees of evil only matter when you're somewhere in the gray area and everything we've been discussing lately is pretty solidly in the black area, if you accept that metaphor.

--flatline

What is the baseline for being more evil then a demon?

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:They're demons. They lie. Swearing an oath only counts if you choose to keep your word. Demons are in general supernaturally evil by nature. They'll lie when ever they feel like it. They picked fights with the 'other' demons in tolkeen's army and killed and (( I think)) Ate a cyberknight that tried to stop them from doin' evil stuff. A CK that was fighting FOR tolkeen. You're ascribing morals, that I think is a mistaken sense of Gratitude. When the war went badly didn't they just bail on tolkeen and make a run for it? They were thankful for being let out of demon prision and allowed to kill things, but their 'loyalty' is only defined in such as "They let me out and allow me to slaughter" once that slaughter is done or Tolkeen appears to be on the losing side, the demons bail.

No, the Daemonix were described as having "eternal respect, allegiance, and friendship" regarding their Human Tolkeenite allies. Argue with it however you want, Pepsi, but that is straight from the book. since when does "eternal" mean "until the war is over"?

They broke and ran in the final battle. So apparently it means exactly that. For a creature that lies like it breathes, "Eternal" means "Until it's inconvenient"

barna10 wrote:
I think you should read about the Daemonix and stop assuming they are a simple plot device to describe how evil Tolkeen. Seriously, your doing yourself and those your debating a disservice by not reading this stuff.. It starts on Coalition Wars book 2, pg 87. It's really a cool story, worthy of a second look (I say second look because you've told us how you read all this stuff before).

And when you get to the end of all the books and see that they broke and ran along with the rest, it'll show you their other side. It's not like they staid there fighting to the last so Tolkeenites could get away. When the battle turned, they Got the frak out.

barna10 wrote:

Also, it describes how even though they were doing their part and following the rules, groups of Psi-Stalkers refused to believe they were really allies and attacked and killed them whenever they could. These guys just can't get a break! Imprisoned for thousands of years, bullied by other demons, stalked and hunted by Psi-Stalkers, and besmirched on this forum! How nice would you be after all of that? LoL

They're demons. They start off at "Supernaturally evil" Why should they get a break?

barna10 wrote:
Aftermath mentions that some Daemonix remained loyal, while those without masters spread to the winds or stuck around and began terrorizing the country side. "Some" is not "All".

Yes. "Some" is not all. As in "Some" remained loyal, while the REST bolted or just went bug nutty killing what ever they could with out ryme or reason. You know. Kinda like demons. The fact that some went out and spread to the winds and begain terrorizing the country side, means some were not eturnally grateful or loyal. Right?

barna10 wrote:
Aftermath also mentions how CS soldiers and former Tolkeen military alike are terrorizing the country side after the war. Does it really matter to the victims who killed them?

The CS is carrying out Mopping up maneuvers. It's not like they're running around shooting each other. Where in the Demons are running around killing whom ever they can get hold of. Tolkeenites, CS, Farmer, whomever.

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Again, our world isn't theirs. In our world the jews didn't have 90% of the planet they could scout out and find a nice place to claim as their own, then move to. Nor did they have cities of Dragons to help. Or access to Magic. Or elementals, or constructs, ect ect.
Morally, should Tolkeen HAD to move? No. They shouldn't have had to, but when faced with "CERTAIN DEATH" or "move", it's a pretty easy choice for most people. It's not like tolkeen had 100s and 100s and 100s of generations of history in that place. It's only 109 PA now. If the city started at 1 PA they've only been there 100 years.

Actually, 1 PA is not 1 year after the apocalypse. It's actually about 200 years after the apocalypse. The Tolkeenites probably did have 100's of years of history there.

It's been 300 years since the Apocalypse. The first 200 years were the 'dark ages' where the rifts went unchecked and monsters ravaged the land. the PA calender is set, when humanity started to crawl back up out of that abyss.

Tolkeen didn't appear, a city of mages, the day that magic returned to earth. It's not like Atlantis thhat rifted back in. It took a while for people to figure out magic. To start learning it, then to band together. It's implyed that Tolkeen started gaining size when the CS quietly asked their mages to leave. (( Not saying Tolkeen was founded by CS mages that left, but about that time))

For them to have 100s of years of history there, the city would have to have been founded and been a city during those dark ages. And if that's the case, how come Tolkeen was one city state, where the CS was a country 50 times their size?

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:My point is a human can not be more evil then a demon.

So are you saying that the worst human can't be worse than the best demon?

Or do you have a particular demon in mind?

--flatline

No not at all like that good sir, What I am saying and have been saying is that the worst human can not be eviler then the worst demon.

Okay, so you claiming that demons have a greater capacity for evil than humans, not that a particular demon is more evil than a particular human. I don't really agree or disagree with it. I figure once you get sufficiently evil, it no longer matters if you're more or less evil than someone or something else. Degrees of evil only matter when you're somewhere in the gray area and everything we've been discussing lately is pretty solidly in the black area, if you accept that metaphor.

--flatline

What is the baseline for being more evil then a demon?

Twilight?

barna10 wrote:
Why do I think they would have tracked them down and killed them? Because they offered no terms. I have yet to see evidence of the CS going to Tolkeen and saying "Leave or die", or "We won't harm you if you pick up and go". There were, however, many threats and open messages expressing the CS's intention to wipe Tolkeen off the map and to commit genocide.

100% truth ..

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:My point is a human can not be more evil then a demon.

So are you saying that the worst human can't be worse than the best demon?

Or do you have a particular demon in mind?

--flatline

No not at all like that good sir, What I am saying and have been saying is that the worst human can not be eviler then the worst demon.

Okay, so you claiming that demons have a greater capacity for evil than humans, not that a particular demon is more evil than a particular human. I don't really agree or disagree with it. I figure once you get sufficiently evil, it no longer matters if you're more or less evil than someone or something else. Degrees of evil only matter when you're somewhere in the gray area and everything we've been discussing lately is pretty solidly in the black area, if you accept that metaphor.

--flatline

What is the baseline for being more evil then a demon?

What does that even mean? Are you trying to define the Absolute Zero of Evilness?

Evil is subjective, so no baseline is possible.

--flatline

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's been 300 years since the Apocalypse. The first 200 years were the 'dark ages' where the rifts went unchecked and monsters ravaged the land. the PA calender is set, when humanity started to crawl back up out of that abyss.

Tolkeen didn't appear, a city of mages, the day that magic returned to earth. It's not like Atlantis thhat rifted back in. It took a while for people to figure out magic. To start learning it, then to band together. It's implyed that Tolkeen started gaining size when the CS quietly asked their mages to leave. (( Not saying Tolkeen was founded by CS mages that left, but about that time))

For them to have 100s of years of history there, the city would have to have been founded and been a city during those dark ages. And if that's the case, how come Tolkeen was one city state, where the CS was a country 50 times their size?

No, Tolkeen did not appear the day after the apocalypse, nor did it appear in 1 PA, it was founded sometime before 1 PA. It's at least as old as the Coalition which means Tolkeen had as much right to the land as the CS had.

What I want to here from a CS supporter is how you justify the CS's attack on Tolkeen. If you read Prosek's motivation, it is purely for power. Tolkeen did NOTHING to provoke the attack besides being populated by mages. How can you be a fan of that, pure, unadulterated racism?

Ninjabunny wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's been 300 years since the Apocalypse. The first 200 years were the 'dark ages' where the rifts went unchecked and monsters ravaged the land. the PA calender is set, when humanity started to crawl back up out of that abyss.

Tolkeen didn't appear, a city of mages, the day that magic returned to earth. It's not like Atlantis thhat rifted back in. It took a while for people to figure out magic. To start learning it, then to band together. It's implyed that Tolkeen started gaining size when the CS quietly asked their mages to leave. (( Not saying Tolkeen was founded by CS mages that left, but about that time))

For them to have 100s of years of history there, the city would have to have been founded and been a city during those dark ages. And if that's the case, how come Tolkeen was one city state, where the CS was a country 50 times their size?

No, Tolkeen did not appear the day after the apocalypse, nor did it appear in 1 PA, it was founded sometime before 1 PA. It's at least as old as the Coalition which means Tolkeen had as much right to the land as the CS had.

What I want to here from a CS supporter is how you justify the CS's attack on Tolkeen. If you read Prosek's motivation, it is purely for power. Tolkeen did NOTHING to provoke the attack besides being populated by mages. How can you be a fan of that, pure, unadulterated racism?

Ok First I do not support the CS (I like them as both villains and surprising good guys), but you can read in CW:SoT book one says the fight was going to happen no matter what all becasue of the Great Dunscun Attacking them. This caused a snowball effect, the CS went on the attack and hunted them down and drove them deep into the Magic zone. If it had ended their we may not have seen the war but FoM retainers, random mages d-bee's and monster kept attacking the CS. Family leaders and then their great library (Yeah it was Karl but the people think it was "the enemy") after so many years of attacks before KArl even took power the people had a deep rooted (and sadly justified) hatred and fear of mages. KArl just twisted and amp'd up these feelings when he took power for the people war was they answer, it was the best defense was to go on the offensives.
That being said they are wrong for going to war but I understand why the people went to war, and Karl well this is just another power play to make sure his "empire" will become even stronger.

I wasn't personally attacking anyone. I just understand anyone wanting to portray the CS as anything but villains. I know they're not supposed to be Nazis, but they're too close for me.

Ninjabunny wrote:Ok First I do not support the CS (I like them as both villains and surprising good guys), but you can read in CW:SoT book one says the fight was going to happen no matter what all becasue of the Great Dunscun Attacking them.

Due to the Fed's taking offence to the Coalition already leaning twords hating the magic communities prior to any conflict ever exsisted .. This can not be overstated ..

Lenwen wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:Ok First I do not support the CS (I like them as both villains and surprising good guys), but you can read in CW:SoT book one says the fight was going to happen no matter what all becasue of the Great Dunscun Attacking them.

Due to the Fed's taking offence to the Coalition already leaning twords hating the magic communities prior to any conflict ever exsisted .. This can not be overstated ..

'Can not be overstated' yet you just did.
FOM explains it quite well on page 10.
Dunscon was peeved that his kingdom was never going to be allowed to join the Coalition that had just formed.
It had little to do with them using magic and mostly to do with the supernatural beings, creatures of magic and the D-Bees that they allowed in their kingdom.
The 134 requests they made to Dunscon on changes he needed to make to the grand city -such as stronger laws on personal freedoms and use of magic- did a lot to cause more tension in the meeting as well as the peeved Dunscon left the meeting after making threats.

Chi-town had decided to let sleeping dogs lie and leave the grand city and FOM unmolested.
BY 5 P.A Dunscon had started plans to conquer North America, and the first target chi-town.
Dunscon had convinced himself that the CS feared him or they would have already attacked him.
The kingdom of Tolkeen was the first to break from the FOM in protest against war with the CS.

Dunscon Started all this with his tirade over not being invited to join the CS and his own mad dreams of conquest and had already considered himself superior to the newly formed coalition, he had a major impact in creating the monster that the CS became.

Oh i didn't forget, that's why i said magic wasn't a predominant factor.

IMO the CS is like the poor child that was abused or neglected that grows up and turns into a serial killer. You want to feel sorry for the poor bastard, but his actions make you want to kill him.

barna10 wrote:IMO the CS is like the poor child that was abused or neglected that grows up and turns into a serial killer. You want to feel sorry for the poor bastard, but his actions make you want to kill him.

Or I guess it's more likely he'll be idolized in modern pop culture

I agree with Pepsi Jedi,Tolkeen,s Leadership turn Evil,when they release Demons in Sorcerers revenge.Entire Demon race is evil,you can't say the same humankind.
I do not see your fact,I see your wishful thinking.
Is Karl Evil Yes,Is the entire Population of the CS Evil No!

I think you want to make Entire CS Evil so that you can force Palladium Books to Genocide the CS canon.

gaby wrote:I think you want to make Entire CS Evil so that you can force Palladium Books to Genocide the CS canon.

No, I don't think that's anyone's goal. I think everyone agrees that the CS is an important part of the setting.

--flatline

The cool kids like the coalition, only nerds like NGR and lazlo

Hey I also like the NGR.

flatline wrote:

gaby wrote:I think you want to make Entire CS Evil so that you can force Palladium Books to Genocide the CS canon.

No, I don't think that's anyone's goal. I think everyone agrees that the CS is an important part of the setting.

--flatline

It's just not essential and shouldn't have the handwaves and protections from the writer so it never suffers the consequences of its actions.

Nightmask wrote:

flatline wrote:

gaby wrote:I think you want to make Entire CS Evil so that you can force Palladium Books to Genocide the CS canon.

No, I don't think that's anyone's goal. I think everyone agrees that the CS is an important part of the setting.

--flatline

It's just not essential and shouldn't have the handwaves and protections from the writer so it never suffers the consequences of its actions.

It suffers the consequences of MY actions

--flatline

Amanda-Cha'at wrote:

Bad Mojo wrote:

barna10 wrote:I've been doing some research and I am perplexed. I've participated in many discussions regarding the CS/Tolkeen war and many have cited the reason for Tolkeen's defeat was that the evil practitioners of magic couldn't work together and pretty much fell apart from within.

However, my current research keeps indicating that prior to the conflict with the CS, Tolkeen was portrayed as a center of peace and learning. I don't usually associate evil with peace and learning (my references are the many journal entries from Erin Tarn). Can anyone identify when Tolkeen shifted from good to bad? I'd appreciate actual book references and not opinion or conjecture.

Yea, a lot of us have problems with this. They tried to make tolkein look evil and the CS look less evil so it would appear the war had shades of grey. However, I never saw it, I see the CS as totally evil and tolkeen being FORCED to do evil things (like summon demons to fight) to protect itself.

There are always ways to do things that does not involve being forced to do evil things. They saw this as an easy way out perhaps and choose to go there, however had their leaders been principled or scrupulous from the start, they would have tried other options. Why not make a giant ritual to put the city into a Roft to Limbo or Time Hole? Or port its population to a safe place? No...summon demons and other atrocities what what they chosed to do...

They didn't pull such rituals because clearly they didn't know them, and they chose what weapons they could to try and survive against an unwarranted war of genocidal aggression. Demons make for a very effective weapon against your opponents, better than robots and capable of rapid self-repair and both inflicting and taking heavy damage.

Nightmask wrote:

Amanda-Cha'at wrote:

Bad Mojo wrote:

barna10 wrote:I've been doing some research and I am perplexed. I've participated in many discussions regarding the CS/Tolkeen war and many have cited the reason for Tolkeen's defeat was that the evil practitioners of magic couldn't work together and pretty much fell apart from within.

However, my current research keeps indicating that prior to the conflict with the CS, Tolkeen was portrayed as a center of peace and learning. I don't usually associate evil with peace and learning (my references are the many journal entries from Erin Tarn). Can anyone identify when Tolkeen shifted from good to bad? I'd appreciate actual book references and not opinion or conjecture.

Yea, a lot of us have problems with this. They tried to make tolkein look evil and the CS look less evil so it would appear the war had shades of grey. However, I never saw it, I see the CS as totally evil and tolkeen being FORCED to do evil things (like summon demons to fight) to protect itself.

There are always ways to do things that does not involve being forced to do evil things. They saw this as an easy way out perhaps and choose to go there, however had their leaders been principled or scrupulous from the start, they would have tried other options. Why not make a giant ritual to put the city into a Roft to Limbo or Time Hole? Or port its population to a safe place? No...summon demons and other atrocities what what they chosed to do...

They didn't pull such rituals because clearly they didn't know them, and they chose what weapons they could to try and survive against an unwarranted war of genocidal aggression. Demons make for a very effective weapon against your opponents, better than robots and capable of rapid self-repair and both inflicting and taking heavy damage.

That's simply incorrect. Every adult dragon in the kingdom of Tolkeen instinctively knew how to create pocket dimensions up to 20 miles in diameter that can be accessed by a dimensional portal. There are also numerous means of moving huge numbers of people across thousands of miles or into whole new dimensions.

I have no problem admitting that were I a Tolkeenite leader and the option was available to me, I would have magically nuked every citizen of the CS, man, woman, child, and dogboy, before running, but there's no point in pretending they couldn't have escaped, and with great ease as well.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Amanda-Cha'at wrote:

Bad Mojo wrote:

barna10 wrote:I've been doing some research and I am perplexed. I've participated in many discussions regarding the CS/Tolkeen war and many have cited the reason for Tolkeen's defeat was that the evil practitioners of magic couldn't work together and pretty much fell apart from within.

However, my current research keeps indicating that prior to the conflict with the CS, Tolkeen was portrayed as a center of peace and learning. I don't usually associate evil with peace and learning (my references are the many journal entries from Erin Tarn). Can anyone identify when Tolkeen shifted from good to bad? I'd appreciate actual book references and not opinion or conjecture.

Yea, a lot of us have problems with this. They tried to make tolkein look evil and the CS look less evil so it would appear the war had shades of grey. However, I never saw it, I see the CS as totally evil and tolkeen being FORCED to do evil things (like summon demons to fight) to protect itself.

There are always ways to do things that does not involve being forced to do evil things. They saw this as an easy way out perhaps and choose to go there, however had their leaders been principled or scrupulous from the start, they would have tried other options. Why not make a giant ritual to put the city into a Roft to Limbo or Time Hole? Or port its population to a safe place? No...summon demons and other atrocities what what they chosed to do...

They didn't pull such rituals because clearly they didn't know them, and they chose what weapons they could to try and survive against an unwarranted war of genocidal aggression. Demons make for a very effective weapon against your opponents, better than robots and capable of rapid self-repair and both inflicting and taking heavy damage.

That's simply incorrect. Every adult dragon in the kingdom of Tolkeen instinctively knew how to create pocket dimensions up to 20 miles in diameter that can be accessed by a dimensional portal. There are also numerous means of moving huge numbers of people across thousands of miles or into whole new dimensions.

I have no problem admitting that were I a Tolkeenite leader and the option was available to me, I would have magically nuked every citizen of the CS, man, woman, child, and dogboy, before running, but there's no point in pretending they couldn't have escaped, and with great ease as well.

It's not evenly remotely accurate to claim that they could have escaped, especially 'with great ease'. You do not move the entire population of an entire city 'with ease'. Have a looksee at how things went for New Orleans when they tried to evacuate, and they've had decades of experience with hurricanes and having to push an entire city's population into moving.

Nightmask wrote:It's not evenly remotely accurate to claim that they could have escaped, especially 'with great ease'. You do not move the entire population of an entire city 'with ease'. Have a looksee at how things went for New Orleans when they tried to evacuate, and they've had decades of experience with hurricanes and having to push an entire city's population into moving.

The war didn't start overnight with no warning and it didn't end in an afternoon. In the intervening years, the entire populace could have been moved anywhere in a matter of days or week, using magic to cross any distance instantly with no need to travel overland or expose themselves to CS attacks.

The time and means available to Tolkeen makes their situation so far removed from that of New Orleans that the comparison is just silly.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Nightmask wrote:It's not evenly remotely accurate to claim that they could have escaped, especially 'with great ease'. You do not move the entire population of an entire city 'with ease'. Have a looksee at how things went for New Orleans when they tried to evacuate, and they've had decades of experience with hurricanes and having to push an entire city's population into moving.

The war didn't start overnight with no warning and it didn't end in an afternoon. In the intervening years, the entire populace could have been moved anywhere in a matter of days or week, using magic to cross any distance instantly with no need to travel overland or expose themselves to CS attacks.

The time and means available to Tolkeen makes their situation so far removed from that of New Orleans that the comparison is just silly.

Would you prefer a comparison to Great Britain then? They saw things building with Germany and knew war was coming, should they have then packed up and moved and said 'here you go take the land we worked for generations, deprive us of everything we've accomplished, expand, then hunt us down where we go next when you feel like it'? Really it's just absurd to insist 'well they could have just moved', no they couldn't have. Nor should they have had to. You have a right to defend what's yours from evil, evil never has a right to take what's yours and it's never evil to fight for what belongs to you. You may do something evil defending it but the act of defending what's yours is never evil. England had every right to defend itself against Germany (which included significant bombings of civilian targets in hopes of collapsing the support of the German people for the war) and Tolkeen had every right to defend what had been its for generations and the 'well they know magic that means they must have been able to run somewhere else so were wrong to stay' argument is just nonsense to try and paint the victim as being the guilty one for standing up to the bully out to take not just his lunch money but his life.

Nightmask wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Nightmask wrote:It's not evenly remotely accurate to claim that they could have escaped, especially 'with great ease'. You do not move the entire population of an entire city 'with ease'. Have a looksee at how things went for New Orleans when they tried to evacuate, and they've had decades of experience with hurricanes and having to push an entire city's population into moving.

The war didn't start overnight with no warning and it didn't end in an afternoon. In the intervening years, the entire populace could have been moved anywhere in a matter of days or week, using magic to cross any distance instantly with no need to travel overland or expose themselves to CS attacks.

The time and means available to Tolkeen makes their situation so far removed from that of New Orleans that the comparison is just silly.

Would you prefer a comparison to Great Britain then? They saw things building with Germany and knew war was coming, should they have then packed up and moved and said 'here you go take the land we worked for generations, deprive us of everything we've accomplished, expand, then hunt us down where we go next when you feel like it'? Really it's just absurd to insist 'well they could have just moved', no they couldn't have. Nor should they have had to. You have a right to defend what's yours from evil, evil never has a right to take what's yours and it's never evil to fight for what belongs to you. You may do something evil defending it but the act of defending what's yours is never evil. England had every right to defend itself against Germany (which included significant bombings of civilian targets in hopes of collapsing the support of the German people for the war) and Tolkeen had every right to defend what had been its for generations and the 'well they know magic that means they must have been able to run somewhere else so were wrong to stay' argument is just nonsense to try and paint the victim as being the guilty one for standing up to the bully out to take not just his lunch money but his life.

I'm not arguing against defending the kingdom. Like I said earlier, I would have fought the CS if I were a Tolkeenite. If that meant summoning demons or setting off nukes in Chi-town, I'd have been down for that.

In this case, however, the leadership was in a unique position to have been able to easily evacuate the entire populace of their kingdom to safety without interfering with the war effort in any significant way. While Tolkeen was fighting the CS, Tolkeen II could have been being built thousands of miles away.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Nightmask wrote:It's not evenly remotely accurate to claim that they could have escaped, especially 'with great ease'. You do not move the entire population of an entire city 'with ease'. Have a looksee at how things went for New Orleans when they tried to evacuate, and they've had decades of experience with hurricanes and having to push an entire city's population into moving.

The war didn't start overnight with no warning and it didn't end in an afternoon. In the intervening years, the entire populace could have been moved anywhere in a matter of days or week, using magic to cross any distance instantly with no need to travel overland or expose themselves to CS attacks.

The time and means available to Tolkeen makes their situation so far removed from that of New Orleans that the comparison is just silly.

Would you prefer a comparison to Great Britain then? They saw things building with Germany and knew war was coming, should they have then packed up and moved and said 'here you go take the land we worked for generations, deprive us of everything we've accomplished, expand, then hunt us down where we go next when you feel like it'? Really it's just absurd to insist 'well they could have just moved', no they couldn't have. Nor should they have had to. You have a right to defend what's yours from evil, evil never has a right to take what's yours and it's never evil to fight for what belongs to you. You may do something evil defending it but the act of defending what's yours is never evil. England had every right to defend itself against Germany (which included significant bombings of civilian targets in hopes of collapsing the support of the German people for the war) and Tolkeen had every right to defend what had been its for generations and the 'well they know magic that means they must have been able to run somewhere else so were wrong to stay' argument is just nonsense to try and paint the victim as being the guilty one for standing up to the bully out to take not just his lunch money but his life.

I'm not arguing against defending the kingdom. Like I said earlier, I would have fought the CS if I were a Tolkeenite. If that meant summoning demons or setting off nukes in Chi-town, I'd have been down for that.

In this case, however, the leadership was in a unique position to have been able to easily evacuate the entire populace of their kingdom to safety without interfering with the war effort in any significant way. While Tolkeen was fighting the CS, Tolkeen II could have been being built thousands of miles away.

That argument still requires that there even be somewhere else they could have done something like that at. A location to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people to, one that local perils were low enough they'd have time to establish themselves rather than finding themselves defenseless victims of a local vampire colony or the like that they missed all their previous scouting missions since they explored during the day not at night. A location that provided access to land that was sufficiently resource-laden to support those hundreds of thousands of people, and so on. That's not a job of months or even years given the nature of Rifts Earth.

Nightmask wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Nightmask wrote:It's not evenly remotely accurate to claim that they could have escaped, especially 'with great ease'. You do not move the entire population of an entire city 'with ease'. Have a looksee at how things went for New Orleans when they tried to evacuate, and they've had decades of experience with hurricanes and having to push an entire city's population into moving.

The war didn't start overnight with no warning and it didn't end in an afternoon. In the intervening years, the entire populace could have been moved anywhere in a matter of days or week, using magic to cross any distance instantly with no need to travel overland or expose themselves to CS attacks.

The time and means available to Tolkeen makes their situation so far removed from that of New Orleans that the comparison is just silly.

Would you prefer a comparison to Great Britain then? They saw things building with Germany and knew war was coming, should they have then packed up and moved and said 'here you go take the land we worked for generations, deprive us of everything we've accomplished, expand, then hunt us down where we go next when you feel like it'? Really it's just absurd to insist 'well they could have just moved', no they couldn't have. Nor should they have had to. You have a right to defend what's yours from evil, evil never has a right to take what's yours and it's never evil to fight for what belongs to you. You may do something evil defending it but the act of defending what's yours is never evil. England had every right to defend itself against Germany (which included significant bombings of civilian targets in hopes of collapsing the support of the German people for the war) and Tolkeen had every right to defend what had been its for generations and the 'well they know magic that means they must have been able to run somewhere else so were wrong to stay' argument is just nonsense to try and paint the victim as being the guilty one for standing up to the bully out to take not just his lunch money but his life.

I'm not arguing against defending the kingdom. Like I said earlier, I would have fought the CS if I were a Tolkeenite. If that meant summoning demons or setting off nukes in Chi-town, I'd have been down for that.

In this case, however, the leadership was in a unique position to have been able to easily evacuate the entire populace of their kingdom to safety without interfering with the war effort in any significant way. While Tolkeen was fighting the CS, Tolkeen II could have been being built thousands of miles away.

That argument still requires that there even be somewhere else they could have done something like that at. A location to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people to, one that local perils were low enough they'd have time to establish themselves rather than finding themselves defenseless victims of a local vampire colony or the like that they missed all their previous scouting missions since they explored during the day not at night. A location that provided access to land that was sufficiently resource-laden to support those hundreds of thousands of people, and so on. That's not a job of months or even years given the nature of Rifts Earth.

The New West is full of open space not claimed by anyone. I'm not saying they could just up and leave one day without any preparation, but with years of lead time and the resources of an entire magic-based kingdom, it could have been done well before the war broke out.

Lost Seraph wrote:As far as war performance goes, Tolkeen performed poorly because Kevin wrote it that way.

I agree.
But the false implication there is that the CS did not also perform poorly because Kevin wrote it that way.
A city with tens of thousands was attacked by a nation with millions of soldiers, psychics, and high-tech war machines.
The inevitable result of the conflict was dragged out far longer than it should have lasted, as the writer(s) artificially fluffed up Tolkeen's power levels, while drastically toning down the intelligence for both the CS and for Tolkeen.

Nightmask wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Nightmask wrote:It's not evenly remotely accurate to claim that they could have escaped, especially 'with great ease'. You do not move the entire population of an entire city 'with ease'. Have a looksee at how things went for New Orleans when they tried to evacuate, and they've had decades of experience with hurricanes and having to push an entire city's population into moving.

The war didn't start overnight with no warning and it didn't end in an afternoon. In the intervening years, the entire populace could have been moved anywhere in a matter of days or week, using magic to cross any distance instantly with no need to travel overland or expose themselves to CS attacks.

The time and means available to Tolkeen makes their situation so far removed from that of New Orleans that the comparison is just silly.

Would you prefer a comparison to Great Britain then? They saw things building with Germany and knew war was coming, should they have then packed up and moved and said 'here you go take the land we worked for generations, deprive us of everything we've accomplished, expand, then hunt us down where we go next when you feel like it'? Really it's just absurd to insist 'well they could have just moved', no they couldn't have. Nor should they have had to. You have a right to defend what's yours from evil, evil never has a right to take what's yours and it's never evil to fight for what belongs to you. You may do something evil defending it but the act of defending what's yours is never evil. England had every right to defend itself against Germany (which included significant bombings of civilian targets in hopes of collapsing the support of the German people for the war) and Tolkeen had every right to defend what had been its for generations and the 'well they know magic that means they must have been able to run somewhere else so were wrong to stay' argument is just nonsense to try and paint the victim as being the guilty one for standing up to the bully out to take not just his lunch money but his life.

I'm not arguing against defending the kingdom. Like I said earlier, I would have fought the CS if I were a Tolkeenite. If that meant summoning demons or setting off nukes in Chi-town, I'd have been down for that.

In this case, however, the leadership was in a unique position to have been able to easily evacuate the entire populace of their kingdom to safety without interfering with the war effort in any significant way. While Tolkeen was fighting the CS, Tolkeen II could have been being built thousands of miles away.

That argument still requires that there even be somewhere else they could have done something like that at. A location to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people to, one that local perils were low enough they'd have time to establish themselves rather than finding themselves defenseless victims of a local vampire colony or the like that they missed all their previous scouting missions since they explored during the day not at night. A location that provided access to land that was sufficiently resource-laden to support those hundreds of thousands of people, and so on. That's not a job of months or even years given the nature of Rifts Earth.

This again? Haven't I pointed out repeatedly how this could have happened, and pretty easily too? Why Yes. I have. lol Tolkeen could have run, and in fact was ---told--- to run by the other peaceful magical nations. "Don't fight when you can just get out of the way!"

Comparing them to earth nations is a false comparison. Earth nations don't have 90% of the world unclaimed they could move to. Earth nations don't have dragons and high level magic to assist in the move. But more over I've pointed out both how they could FIND a place to move to 100s if not 1000s of miles out side the CS reach, how they could scout the area. How they could send a force to claim and clear the area. How they could start building up the new city, and how they could have pilgrimages moving the citizens.

Could it be done over night? No. Certainly not. But the build up for the war was over a decade. They surely had time in that time frame to do so. Was the CS a storm that swept in with in 2 or three days? no. It was a slow moving storm that took 10 years to reach the borders. If you see it coming for 10 years, and you CHOOSE to build up your military to meet it head on, that IS a choice. One that ---everyone---- told them they were foolish to make. That they'd get killed and their city destroyed. Tolkeen said "nope. We got this". They made that choice not to get out of the way. They chose not to evacuate. And they ----chose---- to find armies of demons, bring them to rifts earth and arm them with technowizard devices. They chose to unleash them on human forces. And they chose their own fate.

Free will is a dangerous thing sometimes. You can choose to do stupid things.

if they'd run, evacuated, rebuilt across the country, might they have still died? Perhaps. But we won't know. We just know a few things. 1) Tolkeen chose military build up and war over running and rebuilding elsewhere out side the reach of the CS. 2) That --everyone-- told them to run. To get out of the way. That they would be destroyed if they didn't. 3) That the CS saw them as an evil and unpredictable city nation of mages, aliens, monsters and demons that were a threat to Humanity, and 4) in the end, 2 and 3 were both 100% true. They WERE An unpredictable city nation of mages, aliens, monsters and yes, demons, that were a threat to humanity. and yes, it still didn't matter, The CS destroyed them. Leveled the city and sent the rest fleeing into the wilderness.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lost Seraph wrote:As far as war performance goes, Tolkeen performed poorly because Kevin wrote it that way.

I agree.
But the false implication there is that the CS did not also perform poorly because Kevin wrote it that way.
A city with tens of thousands was attacked by a nation with millions of soldiers, psychics, and high-tech war machines.
The inevitable result of the conflict was dragged out far longer than it should have lasted, as the writer(s) artificially fluffed up Tolkeen's power levels, while drastically toning down the intelligence for both the CS and for Tolkeen.

Sounds like you're downsizing the actual size and usefulness of Tolkeen's army still, as if Tolkeen just had a bunch of bumpkins defending it instead of incredibly powerful magical creatures, unlimited power for its weapons (Ley Lines) and tactics and stuff on its side the CS could never plan for and rightfully should have suffered horrible losses trying to cope with.

Ninjabunny wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lost Seraph wrote:As far as war performance goes, Tolkeen performed poorly because Kevin wrote it that way.

I agree.
But the false implication there is that the CS did not also perform poorly because Kevin wrote it that way.
A city with tens of thousands was attacked by a nation with millions of soldiers, psychics, and high-tech war machines.
The inevitable result of the conflict was dragged out far longer than it should have lasted, as the writer(s) artificially fluffed up Tolkeen's power levels, while drastically toning down the intelligence for both the CS and for Tolkeen.

Sounds like you're downsizing the actual size and usefulness of Tolkeen's army still, as if Tolkeen just had a bunch of bumpkins defending it instead of incredibly powerful magical creatures, unlimited power for its weapons (Ley Lines) and tactics and stuff on its side the CS could never plan for and rightfully should have suffered horrible losses trying to cope with.

They did suffer losses, what books are you reading? Are you even reading the books? You know what don't even answer because your post past and present have given me the answers.

What are these books you spoke of, I never heard of them

Lost Seraph wrote:The Coalition suffered terrible losses, but was able to replace them since a fair amount of the troops came from the Burbs or other desperate citizens attempting to get into the city. If anything. the War on Tolkeen has made them stronger, not just with their experience in anti-magic tactics but increasing the desire/need for more enhanced troops (if there isn't a call for more Juicers and Borgs, plus naval reinforcement, I would be insanely surprised). Tolkeen has been destroyed, and now we just have the Xiticx, random groups of the Federation, and Atlantis for true obvious threats. If the Coalition decided to expand further east or west, larger threats might appear (a completely unified Iroquois nation vs the CS would be awesome), but they'll just float until the demons/deevils appear and slowly expand. And if they need someone to save the day, Jerico Holmes will appear and use his unnoticeable to enemy plot mega-hero power to disguise 300,000 troops to attack them from behind.

Small point of note. 1) The next 'planned' action of the CS is the bugs, with Holmes leading the way. 2) The CS underestimates the Fed, and dipstick down there has rallied about half of them under his banner, so he's a bigger threat than perceived. and 3) Yes as you pointed out the "Megaverse in flames" Will soon (( well relitivly.. with in 5 or 6 books, we hope)) be out and whatever 'Plans" will be put on hold to face that threat.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lost Seraph wrote:The Coalition suffered terrible losses, but was able to replace them since a fair amount of the troops came from the Burbs or other desperate citizens attempting to get into the city. If anything. the War on Tolkeen has made them stronger, not just with their experience in anti-magic tactics but increasing the desire/need for more enhanced troops (if there isn't a call for more Juicers and Borgs, plus naval reinforcement, I would be insanely surprised). Tolkeen has been destroyed, and now we just have the Xiticx, random groups of the Federation, and Atlantis for true obvious threats. If the Coalition decided to expand further east or west, larger threats might appear (a completely unified Iroquois nation vs the CS would be awesome), but they'll just float until the demons/deevils appear and slowly expand. And if they need someone to save the day, Jerico Holmes will appear and use his unnoticeable to enemy plot mega-hero power to disguise 300,000 troops to attack them from behind.

Small point of note. 1) The next 'planned' action of the CS is the bugs, with Holmes leading the way. 2) The CS underestimates the Fed, and dipstick down there has rallied about half of them under his banner, so he's a bigger threat than perceived. and 3) Yes as you pointed out the "Megaverse in flames" Will soon (( well relitivly.. with in 5 or 6 books, we hope)) be out and whatever 'Plans" will be put on hold to face that threat.

I have a problem with the "there no threat coming out of that area "with the FOM, but I guess that was to make the anti-humanity people happy.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lost Seraph wrote:As far as war performance goes, Tolkeen performed poorly because Kevin wrote it that way.

I agree.
But the false implication there is that the CS did not also perform poorly because Kevin wrote it that way.
A city with tens of thousands was attacked by a nation with millions of soldiers, psychics, and high-tech war machines.
The inevitable result of the conflict was dragged out far longer than it should have lasted, as the writer(s) artificially fluffed up Tolkeen's power levels, while drastically toning down the intelligence for both the CS and for Tolkeen.

History is full of examples of smaller forces successfully repelling invasions from much larger armies.
This smaller force also happened to have access to incredibly powerful magic which increases their tactical options significantly.
The real issue is the fact that tactics were taken out of the equation whether they be mundane or magical, instead the writer's opted for a slugfest and obviously the winner of a slugfest is always going to be the one with the bigger army. The CS weren't wrong for going the route of a slugfest because as long as Tolkeen reciprocated, they were guaranteed a win. The fault lies with Tolkeen's leadership (and the writers) who thought they could stand a chance against a superior nation without using even basic strategy.
The fault also lies in whomever wrote the Tolkeen's leadership as having IQs above 3 when they statted them out.

Lost Seraph wrote:The Coalition suffered terrible losses, but was able to replace them since a fair amount of the troops came from the Burbs or other desperate citizens attempting to get into the city. If anything. the War on Tolkeen has made them stronger, not just with their experience in anti-magic tactics but increasing the desire/need for more enhanced troops (if there isn't a call for more Juicers and Borgs, plus naval reinforcement, I would be insanely surprised). Tolkeen has been destroyed, and now we just have the Xiticx, random groups of the Federation, and Atlantis for true obvious threats. If the Coalition decided to expand further east or west, larger threats might appear (a completely unified Iroquois nation vs the CS would be awesome), but they'll just float until the demons/deevils appear and slowly expand. And if they need someone to save the day, Jerico Holmes will appear and use his unnoticeable to enemy plot mega-hero power to disguise 300,000 troops to attack them from behind.

Kevin himself doesn't see it that way. He explicitly states in Sourcebook One Revised that the CS is weaker after the Tolkeen War (though he does say they are more confident, but dangerously so), and that either the Xiticix or the Federation of Magic is most likely to be a rude awakening as to how thinly they've stretched themselves fighting in the Siege.

Besides, as of Aftermath at least, the guys doing most of the fighting against the Demons are Larsen's Brigade.

Is Tolkeen evil not at first yet eventually they did let themsleves be corrupted by power and went down the path that led to the Federation of Magic of forst defeat. That being said though as usual those who like the CS are ignoring the simple politocs of the regime. It's a fascist regime. Not the current United States of america no matter how many try and portray them like that.

My apologies to the mods and some posters what follows maybe graphic in nature and distrubing to some.

First the CS captures any male of a species and either kill them or inject them with some sort of substance rendering them sterile. Followed by lobotimizing any all the areas of the brain that regulate free will. At most those with a talent for psionics or magic are forced to have bionics or cybernetics to make those tlanets weaker, more manageable and with luck and go CS know how removed completely. If they still resist either put up against a wall or a public hanging will do the trick. As a warning against others. The female of the species is also rendered sterile or forced to have an abortion againt their will. If it can be done when the patient is awake some much the better. If not several does of tranquilzer will do the trick. If they still resist either put up against a wall or a public hanging will do the trick. As a warning against others.

Every couple of days depending on the alignment of the CS solifer/officer a bunch of prisoners are picked out at random put up againts a wall and a re summarily executed without burial. Or hung from the nearest set of tress of scaffolding as a warning to anyone who decides to resist or for simple fun or because the CS solidier/officer can. The more evil of the CS soldiers/officers make deals with more human looking men and woman for sexual favors. In exchange for food, the chance to live longer or as a soruce of information within a potential enemy group. Of course not all will do the above yet unfortunately those in command are all evil alignments which many CS supporters forget.

The promise of a better life to a human "undesirable" to the CS then using them as cannon fodder so that more pure racial superior CS citizens do not suffer in battle or die. Befor anyone say "they knew what they were getting into I call BS on that. How many army recruiters you know go "join the army expect to be used as cannon fodder". They were given a fake promise to a better life while the CS lied to their faxces and threw their damn lives away.

Some will says "not everyone in the CS is evil". Unfortunately once again those in power the truly evil ones control every part of society. To the point that they delibretly and knowingly keep their own population illetrate. Even if one speaks up against the CS the ISS are sent against them. Either to capture, kill or brainwash the individual or groups. Those that resist for a long period of time are either killed outright and marked publically as an enemy of humankind. Or simply made ot dissapear in a "accident" Even better the ISS starts a rumour that a person or group of people are harboring a d-bee or praticoner of magic and stsnd back and watch the mob mentality take action. While arriving at the scene "tragically late" to save the person or groups of people. As for the average CS soldier he has to be VERY careful as to who he speaks to about an doubts he has with the regime or the CS policies in general. A word to the wrong person and the soldier is either dishonarably discharged. He loses all medals, pay and benefits. While the ISS makes sure to pulbically announce it all over the place of his crimes. That's the least worst thing that can happen. The offending solider will be sent to eiother mop up the the remains of the Tolkine front, the Xitcix badlands or any other dangerous place that involves certain death. If not poor fellow is "accidently" killed by friendly fire. Friendly fire being a secret ISS agent or harcore CS supporter holding a rifle or gun to his head. So while the CS is less evil than say Tolkenn and it's demons it's hardly the paragons of virute that the CS supporters make them out to be. Once again many conviently forget that it's a fascist government. Controlled by very evil people willing to kill their own people if they have to to remain in power.

The CS goes around attracting all kinds of trouble which imo will spell the doom of the CS. If it's not killing merc groups because they have a CS pistol. It's letting Atlantis know they have nuclear weapons and not afraid to use them. Yo not even finishing one war with plans to start one possible two new fronts. Despite the loses and psycholigocal damage and injured soldiers in the wake of the SOT. All because they are greedy for power and to save "mankind". But really it's to increase the Prosek regime power consquences be damned.

Once again I'm not saying that Toliien is evil. I find Tolikien more evil than the CS. All I'm saying is don't act like they are the United Coalition States of America minus the fascism. They maybe humanitys last hope but they are few levels below in evil than Tolkien and the FOM. Humanity hope and possibly mightamre. What do you think if the CS manages to clear Rifts Earth of all kinds of magic, D-bees and anyone else that is an obstacle to their power that Karl Prosek and the rest of the regime will have a ephiany and suddenly relinquish all their power and turn the CS into a free and democratic society open to all kinds of cred and ideas. That's some wishful thinking their boyo. Read up on Germany in WW 2 than come back to me and tell me Hitler would have relinqueshed power if he conqured anyone.

It makes me sick to write this yet it needed to be. Many years ago I had to a paper on Germany during WW 2. Forgot the topic but the above kept coming up in a lot of manual, textbooks and encyclopedias. Still imo needed to be posted to counter the "nah the CS ain't evil just misunderstood" that I see way too often on tbe boards.

Sureshot wrote:Is Tolkeen evil not at first yet eventually they did let themsleves be corrupted by power and went down the path that led to the Federation of Magic of forst defeat. That being said though as usual those who like the CS are ignoring the simple politocs of the regime. It's a fascist regime. Not the current United States of america no matter how many try and portray them like that.

My apologies to the mods and some posters what follows maybe graphic in nature and distrubing to some.

First the CS captures any male of a species and either kill them or inject them with some sort of substance rendering them sterile. Followed by lobotimizing any all the areas of the brain that regulate free will. At most those with a talent for psionics or magic are forced to have bionics or cybernetics to make those tlanets weaker, more manageable and with luck and go CS know how removed completely. If they still resist either put up against a wall or a public hanging will do the trick. As a warning against others. The female of the species is also rendered sterile or forced to have an abortion againt their will. If it can be done when the patient is awake some much the better. If not several does of tranquilzer will do the trick. If they still resist either put up against a wall or a public hanging will do the trick. As a warning against others.

Every couple of days depending on the alignment of the CS solifer/officer a bunch of prisoners are picked out at random put up againts a wall and a re summarily executed without burial. Or hung from the nearest set of tress of scaffolding as a warning to anyone who decides to resist or for simple fun or because the CS solidier/officer can. The more evil of the CS soldiers/officers make deals with more human looking men and woman for sexual favors. In exchange for food, the chance to live longer or as a soruce of information within a potential enemy group. Of course not all will do the above yet unfortunately those in command are all evil alignments which many CS supporters forget.

The promise of a better life to a human "undesirable" to the CS then using them as cannon fodder so that more pure racial superior CS citizens do not suffer in battle or die. Befor anyone say "they knew what they were getting into I call BS on that. How many army recruiters you know go "join the army expect to be used as cannon fodder". They were given a fake promise to a better life while the CS lied to their faxces and threw their damn lives away.

Some will says "not everyone in the CS is evil". Unfortunately once again those in power the truly evil ones control every part of society. To the point that they delibretly and knowingly keep their own population illetrate. Even if one speaks up against the CS the ISS are sent against them. Either to capture, kill or brainwash the individual or groups. Those that resist for a long period of time are either killed outright and marked publically as an enemy of humankind. Or simply made ot dissapear in a "accident" Even better the ISS starts a rumour that a person or group of people are harboring a d-bee or praticoner of magic and stsnd back and watch the mob mentality take action. While arriving at the scene "tragically late" to save the person or groups of people. As for the average CS soldier he has to be VERY careful as to who he speaks to about an doubts he has with the regime or the CS policies in general. A word to the wrong person and the soldier is either dishonarably discharged. He loses all medals, pay and benefits. While the ISS makes sure to pulbically announce it all over the place of his crimes. That's the least worst thing that can happen. The offending solider will be sent to eiother mop up the the remains of the Tolkine front, the Xitcix badlands or any other dangerous place that involves certain death. If not poor fellow is "accidently" killed by friendly fire. Friendly fire being a secret ISS agent or harcore CS supporter holding a rifle or gun to his head. So while the CS is less evil than say Tolkenn and it's demons it's hardly the paragons of virute that the CS supporters make them out to be. Once again many conviently forget that it's a fascist government. Controlled by very evil people willing to kill their own people if they have to to remain in power.

The CS goes around attracting all kinds of trouble which imo will spell the doom of the CS. If it's not killing merc groups because they have a CS pistol. It's letting Atlantis know they have nuclear weapons and not afraid to use them. Yo not even finishing one war with plans to start one possible two new fronts. Despite the loses and psycholigocal damage and injured soldiers in the wake of the SOT. All because they are greedy for power and to save "mankind". But really it's to increase the Prosek regime power consquences be damned.

Once again I'm not saying that Toliien is evil. I find Tolikien more evil than the CS. All I'm saying is don't act like they are the United Coalition States of America minus the fascism. They maybe humanitys last hope but they are few levels below in evil than Tolkien and the FOM. Humanity hope and possibly mightamre. What do you think if the CS manages to clear Rifts Earth of all kinds of magic, D-bees and anyone else that is an obstacle to their power that Karl Prosek and the rest of the regime will have a ephiany and suddenly relinquish all their power and turn the CS into a free and democratic society open to all kinds of cred and ideas. That's some wishful thinking their boyo. Read up on Germany in WW 2 than come back to me and tell me Hitler would have relinqueshed power if he conqured anyone.

It makes me sick to write this yet it needed to be. Many years ago I had to a paper on Germany during WW 2. Forgot the topic but the above kept coming up in a lot of manual, textbooks and encyclopedias. Still imo needed to be posted to counter the "nah the CS ain't evil just misunderstood" that I see way too often on tbe boards.

Um... Wut? ..... Sureshot.. I'm not trying to be funny but... do what?? Where are you getting most of that? Much of it seems purely fabricated and... with a good deal more spelling mistakes than is normal for you. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything but it seems a little inebriated? You ok man?

Last year I went to Tolkeen. Before the Coalition Army showed up, it was a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles.

-Erin Tarn

I was just a boy when the dog boys came to my village in their Death's Head Transports. The dog boys fired at the oil fields and they lit up like the eyes of a burster. Burning oil rained down from the sky and cooked everything it touched. I could only hide myself and cry as my goats were consumed by the fiery black liquid death. In the midst of the chaos, I could swear that I heard my goats screaming for help. As quickly as they had come, the dog boys were gone. It was on that day I put a jihad on them. And if you don't believe it, then you'd better kill me now, because I'll put a jihad on you, too.

- Anonymous Juicer Wannabe

That's how it happened.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:.Um... Wut? ..... Sureshot.. I'm not trying to be funny but... do what?? Where are you getting most of that? Much of it seems purely fabricated and... with a good deal more spelling mistakes than is normal for you. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything but it seems a little inebriated? You ok man?

Do the research alot of that sutff happened under Nazi Germany. You do realize that Nazi Germany was not a very nice place (putting it very midly) if yiou were not German. Or a free thinker or anyone who spoke out against the regime. Since Karl Prosek is basing a lot of the ideals of the CS on Hitler and Nazi Germany that type of stuff is bound to happen. Too often the fascism and polices of the CS are sugercoated and shoved under the rug out of sight and out of mind. Why do you think I waited so long to post in this thread. Was not sure if I should. Just got tired of fans of the CS acting like the CS is a regime of high ideals. It's anything but. They may say the opposite to get more countries and areas to join but nce you let them or fight back. Your remade, rebuilt into a model state of the CS. Any dissenters are made to disappear in "accidents" or well planned murders. Your not supposed to like the CS. Kevin has imo toned down a lot of the negative stuff about Nazi Germany that you find in history textbooks. To make Rifts more palaptable for the current politocal correct mindset. If he wrote them as true fascists I think many posters included myself would be very uncomfortable and would avoid buying Rifts or at least any product that has CS material in it. It's all in the history books. I don't agree with any of the stuff I posted. I despise the above post. Makes me uncomfortable yet in my games the CS are run are true fascists and not the USA of with the fascist elemets removed.

Sureshot wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:.Um... Wut? ..... Sureshot.. I'm not trying to be funny but... do what?? Where are you getting most of that? Much of it seems purely fabricated and... with a good deal more spelling mistakes than is normal for you. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything but it seems a little inebriated? You ok man?

Do the research alot of that sutff happened under Nazi Germany. You do realize that Nazi Germany was not a very nice place (putting it very midly) if yiou were not German. Or a free thinker or anyone who spoke out against the regime. Since Karl Prosek is basing a lot of the ideals of the CS on Hitler and Nazi Germany that type of stuff is bound to happen. Too often the fascism and polices of the CS are sugercoated and shoved under the rug out of sight and out of mind. Why do you think I waited so long to post in this thread. Was not sure if I should. Just got tired of fans of the CS acting like the CS is a regime of high ideals. It's anything but. They may say the opposite to get more countries and areas to join but nce you let them or fight back. Your remade, rebuilt into a model state of the CS. Any dissenters are made to disappear in "accidents" or well planned murders. Your not supposed to like the CS. Kevin has imo toned down a lot of the negative stuff about Nazi Germany that you find in history textbooks. To make Rifts more palaptable for the current politocal correct mindset. If he wrote them as true fascists I think many posters included myself would be very uncomfortable and would avoid buying Rifts or at least any product that has CS material in it. It's all in the history books. I don't agree with any of the stuff I posted. I despise the above post. Makes me uncomfortable yet in my games the CS are run are true fascists and not the USA of with the fascist elemets removed.

the CS is NOT Nazi Germany though. That's the thing. You can't go "Oh they dress in black so they're Nazi's. They're not. SOME of the things Karl red about Germany he liked. Not all. Nor do the CS do the stuff you've written above in the way you've written it. You're taking a few instances and few leanings and have taken them so far into the extreme as to be absurd.

Never has the CS been protrayed quite as you have. Have a few units gone full out darkside. Yeah. A few have. They stand out because they fall into the role of the villians in games, but not all. The books are quite clear about this. You get both sides of the spectrum. "Light" and "Dark" most people (( You know.. like most PEOPLE)) Falling between. It's stated that most of the people in the CS are of good alignments. You're making it out far worse than it's protrayed in the books.

Now if that's how you play YOUR CS. All horror story and "I'll just say they're nasty nazzi's with lazers" that's your thing, but they're not like that in the books. Saint's no. But they're not all "It's end of shift. Lets go murder some folks for no reason. HAIL HITLER!" types.

You're saying Kevin has 'toned down alot of Nazi germnay" that's because, it's NOT Nazi Germany. Some aspects were taken but not whole cloth.

He didn't "Write them as -true fascists- because they're not. Not the way you seem to be thinking. The CS is at best ambigeuous. They can be good, can be bad. It's left up to Gm's as how to use them. They can be --heroes--. It's up to you how to play them. THey're not 'NAZZI NAZZI NAZZI!! Awwww you're wimpin' out on your NAZZI man!!"

Again, if you play them like that, that's TOTALLY ok for your games. But as written they're not psycho murdering Nazi's. Not all of them. Some units are. Some of the leaders are evil. But not "Lets bathe in baby blood and suck on their eyeballs" Evil.

Again you've taken some hints, some leanings and took it all the way to blood drenched jack booted, baby killing with the buts of rifles to save bullets, lets go slaughter people and wear their faces for fun, extreme.

It's all to easy to say it's not Nazi Germany. Except that not entirely true though. When you have the guy in control not only admiring Hitler but borrowing some his fascist polices. To the point that he wrote an essay in school. Like it or not it's a fascist state. You can shove that under the rug and pretend that the CS are misunderstand bad guys with evil leaders yet imo that does not cut it. They practicue eugnenics. They crackdown on dissent. They keep the people stupid and uneducated. They kill anyone different from them. They go into a area and alter it to suit their needs by any means possible. They actively go out of their war to start wars and (at least those in charge) worship anything that is war and promote their own well being and increase their powerbase. So no it's not Nazi Germany it's a damn close second or third. As I said I respect you don't like the fascist elements of the CS. At least that's how I'm reading it. While I don't play them as just nazi with guns the good CS soldier is few and far between. Anybody that says anything postive or is sympathetic to D-Bees or anything not CS doctrine usually does not have a long life in the CS military. Soldiers like that get ratted out to the ISS and end up in big trouble. Even than those in charge are evil "not bathing in blood evil" but evil. They took the american dream and twisted it to their own ends. Thre is no way short of the republicans or General Holmes whom I'm assuming is very popular in the CS to effect in change. Whic is not going to happen anytime soon. Karl has surronded himself with power hungry people willing to do anying and everything to maintain theior power. I play a predominatly evil organization they way it's supposed to be played imo.. Mostly evil with an occasional good CS soldier or squad in the mix. Except the good elemetns are the exception and not the norm imo. There is a reason D-bees or good humans despise the CS. In the end imo 90% of the time that CS soldier or squad is going to gun you down. No questions asked and no regret. The reason the CS has no been portrayed the way I posted is not offend or make them to extreme for the fanbase. If Kevin wanted imo I'm sure he could make the CS much more evil than they are in the books. He choose the smart business move and made them evil but removed certain elements. What do you think a fascist government is?

Sureshot wrote:It's all to easy to say it's not Nazi Germany. Except that not entirely true though. When you have the guy in control not only admiring Hitler but borrowing some his fascist polices. To the point that he wrote an essay in school. Like it or not it's a fascist state. You can shove that under the rug and pretend that the CS are misunderstand bad guys with evil leaders yet imo that does not cut it. They practicue eugnenics. They crackdown on dissent. They keep the people stupid and uneducated. They kill anyone different from them. They go into a area and alter it to suit their needs by any means possible. They actively go out of their war to start wars and (at least those in charge) worship anything that is war and promote their own well being and increase their powerbase. So no it's not Nazi Germany it's a damn close second or third. As I said I respect you don't like the fascist elements of the CS. At least that's how I'm reading it. While I don't play them as just nazi with guns the good CS soldier is few and far between. Anybody that says anything postive or is sympathetic to D-Bees or anything not CS doctrine usually does not have a long life in the CS military. Soldiers like that get ratted out to the ISS and end up in big trouble. Even than those in charge are evil "not bathing in blood evil" but evil. They took the american dream and twisted it to their own ends. Thre is no way short of the republicans or General Holmes whom I'm assuming is very popular in the CS to effect in change. I play a predominatly evil organization they way it's supposed to be played. Mostly evil with an occasional good CS soldier or squad in the mix. Except the good elemetns are the exception and not the norm imo. There is a reason D-bees or good humans despise the CS. In the end imo 90% of the time that CS soldier or squad is going to gun you down. No questions asked and no regret.

You're still going '100% yes or 100% no. And it's not like that. To quote you "Borrowing some of his (hitler)'s fascist polices"

Doesn't mean 'It's Nazi CS."

Some does not equate to all. You're taking a side handed comment in a sentence or two and basing the entire nation that has had multiple books dedicated to it, off those few sentences.

Again, I can't stress this enough, I'm accused of being some CS lover. I'm not. I do NOT think they're saints. I do think they often overreact when it comes to DBees and Magic.

I can just understand the reaction and over reaction.

And I've read the books to read that while they do have SOME things barrowed from Germany and Fascism, it's just not wall to wall diabolic psychotic cannibalist wackadoodle killers.

You know how many kids go through a dark period and Read Mien Kamph in school? It might blow your mind. Doesn't mean we're a nation fulla Cold blooded Nazi's.

Where do you see that they practice Eugenics? As best I can tell there is ZERO skin color considerations in the CS at all. Two of the most powerful men in the CS are black.

They do crack down on dissidents, but not quite the way you're making out. Again you're taking a statement here, a phrase there and are taking it and craking it to 11 and over reacting about stuff that's just not written.

They do not promote literacy, but there's a far cry from 'keep um stoopid'. "Stupid" nations dont have millions of suits of Power armor. Robot vechiles. Hovor technology. Hockey puck sized nuclear reactors. laser guns, plasma guns, rail guns, robots, bionics, juicers, borgs, ect.

They do not kill anyone different from them. Northern Gun is doing just fine. Merc town is doing just fine. the NGR (( argueably like them,)) Are just fine. They do NOT like the "alien invaders" on their planet by and large but they do not "Kill anyone different from them"

They go into area's and alter it to suit their needs. Just like every human civilization has done since we stopped chuckin' rocks at squirrels.

As for the "They activly go out of their way to start wars and worship anything that is war" that's just a fabrication.

Not putting too fine a point on it but they've had the one war with Tolkeen, which was decades coming and a civil war with Free Quebec when they ceeded.... and they're friends now, and Karl admitted wrong doing there. Again you're taking one thing and painting the entire nation with this absurd nigh on comical over reacting sort of view point.

I do NOT like the fascist elements of the CS. I honestly don't. I don't ignore them though. They are there. They just aren't as super extreme on roids sort of elements you're presenting.

They did take the American Dream and twist it. I just think that it was twisted for the purpose of Survial of the human race. And in doing so some very bad people are sittin' at the top. They are evil. I'm -not- saying the head of the serpent isn't evil. I'm agreeing with you there. But the average person is not. They see the CS as saviors and as Heroes. They support the military because it keeps them safe from demons and aliens. They don't see anything wrong with that.

I agree it'd take a major change. I think Holmes + Karl's kid, after Karl's dead could change it. if that's the route kevin wanted to go. it'd take time. But it 'could' be done.

The thing is, Kevin is 'invested'. He's 50+ books in with the CS as written. To change them now would be a huge drastic thing. The sort of thing you seldom see in RPG's unless you're about to 'end the line'. So i'm not sure i'd hold my breath.

You MAKE them a "predominately evil organization" thus it's suppoed to be played evil.

I see them as a dicotomy. A nation of Humans, FOR humans that are trying to save mankind. Yes. SOME of their leaders are evil and use the nation as a power base. But even doing so they ARE helping humans reclaim their lands and keeping humanity going. Yes their policies are ___OFTEN___ if not ___MOSTLY___ Wrong when it comes to magic and dbees, but I see where they came from. And as with tolkeen, we see that even when the CS is often and mostly wrong... sometimes they get it right.

As for the 90% thing, again that's you taking something to the extreme. The books don't protray them like that at all.

Now if a Dbee brandishes a weapon or takes a shot at them. Sure. they'll light you up, but the CS are not written as a nation of psychotic murderous psychopaths with raging blood lust and delight in murder and rampage.

They're like most groups of people more than 3. You'll get some good. Some evil. And most in between.

(( Edit to fix a sentence))

At thsi point neither of us i going to convince the other of his argument so we might as well leave it at that. Instead of going "youe wrong" no "your incorrect". Still some nice debating going on there PJ. Even if we are different sides of the topic.

Sureshot wrote:It's all to easy to say it's not Nazi Germany. Except that not entirely true though. When you have the guy in control not only admiring Hitler but borrowing some his fascist polices. To the point that he wrote an essay in school. Like it or not it's a fascist state. You can shove that under the rug and pretend that the CS are misunderstand bad guys with evil leaders yet imo that does not cut it. They practicue eugnenics. They crackdown on dissent. They keep the people stupid and uneducated. They kill anyone different from them. They go into a area and alter it to suit their needs by any means possible. They actively go out of their war to start wars and (at least those in charge) worship anything that is war and promote their own well being and increase their powerbase. So no it's not Nazi Germany it's a damn close second or third. As I said I respect you don't like the fascist elements of the CS. At least that's how I'm reading it. While I don't play them as just nazi with guns the good CS soldier is few and far between. Anybody that says anything postive or is sympathetic to D-Bees or anything not CS doctrine usually does not have a long life in the CS military. Soldiers like that get ratted out to the ISS and end up in big trouble. Even than those in charge are evil "not bathing in blood evil" but evil. They took the american dream and twisted it to their own ends. Thre is no way short of the republicans or General Holmes whom I'm assuming is very popular in the CS to effect in change. Whic is not going to happen anytime soon. Karl has surronded himself with power hungry people willing to do anying and everything to maintain theior power. I play a predominatly evil organization they way it's supposed to be played imo.. Mostly evil with an occasional good CS soldier or squad in the mix. Except the good elemetns are the exception and not the norm imo. There is a reason D-bees or good humans despise the CS. In the end imo 90% of the time that CS soldier or squad is going to gun you down. No questions asked and no regret. The reason the CS has no been portrayed the way I posted is not offend or make them to extreme for the fanbase. If Kevin wanted imo I'm sure he could make the CS much more evil than they are in the books. He choose the smart business move and made them evil but removed certain elements. What do you think a fascist government is?

which ones?
the clean drinking water?, the non-smoking one, the no cutting up animals? which policies did karl take from hitler?

Sureshot wrote:At thsi point neither of us i going to convince the other of his argument so we might as well leave it at that. Instead of going "youe wrong" no "your incorrect". Still some nice debating going on there PJ. Even if we are different sides of the topic.

Word!

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I see them as a dicotomy. A nation of Humans, FOR humans that are trying to save mankind. Yes. SOME of their leaders are evil and use the nation as a power base. But even doing so they ARE helping humans reclaim their lands and keeping humanity going. Yes their policies are ___OFTEN___ if not ___MOSTLY___ Wrong when it comes to magic and dbees, but I see where they came from. And as with tolkeen, we see that even when the CS is often and mostly wrong... sometimes they get it right.

No, that's the New German Republic. The Coalition States is only concerned with it's own power.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't lie about the world's History.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't make Literacy a crime.

If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't have a 20-year expansion plan that involves territory held by non-hostile and even Human-controlled nations (Not just Tolkeen, they plann to take over the territories of Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Free Quebec too).

If they were only concerned with saving Mankind, they wouldn't have a support structure whose alignments generally run the moral spectrum from Aberrant all the way to Diabolic (with that last one including the man in charge and his Heir Apparent).

The Coalition States is not the Imperium of Man. They are the biggest option, not the best choice of a bad lot.

As for the 90% thing, again that's you taking something to the extreme. The books don't protray them like that at all.

Yeah, everyone knows it's more like 83%.

SAMASzero wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I see them as a dicotomy. A nation of Humans, FOR humans that are trying to save mankind. Yes. SOME of their leaders are evil and use the nation as a power base. But even doing so they ARE helping humans reclaim their lands and keeping humanity going. Yes their policies are ___OFTEN___ if not ___MOSTLY___ Wrong when it comes to magic and dbees, but I see where they came from. And as with tolkeen, we see that even when the CS is often and mostly wrong... sometimes they get it right.

No, that's the New German Republic. The Coalition States is only concerned with it's own power.

And all those millions of humans fighting the inhuman invaders on earth are what? A cleverly constructed ruse? The NGR IS the CS, under seige. It's not like they're friendly to Dbees. They kick them out of their nation, or at best allow them to exist as second class citizens, after they serve 20 years as cannon fodder? (( I think it's 20. I could be wrong about the number)) The Cs just doesn't use them as Cannon fodder.

SAMASzero wrote:
If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't lie about the world's History.

Why? Because history matters when fighting aliens from other worlds? They maintain CONTROL by lieing about history. It has nothing to do with mankind's ongoing survival.
Remember, history is written by the winners. Don't mistake a policy to maintain control of a people, to be 'evil'. All governments lie about history to some extent. Even if it's only egocentric representation and view point. And I never said 'ONLY concerned with Mankinds survival. They're concerned about other things as well. But mankind's survival is paramount.

SAMASzero wrote:
If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't make Literacy a crime.

Good thing literacy is NOT a crime. 14% of grunts can read. 100% of military officers can read. "Uppers" Have the option of schools and have a higher percentage of literacy. There's even a university on the upper level of Chi-town. More over. There has to be literacy to be a super high tech society. The 'LEVEL' of universal literacy has been highly debated, but the fact remains, they have laser weapons, plasma weapons, rail guns, missles, explosives, jet packs, hovor vechiles, nuclear power supplies the size of hockey pucks. Millions of suits of power armor, robot vechiles, giant apc's, sky cycles, MDC alloys, Genetic knowledge and technology capiable of taking fido the dog and elevating the gene structure and genetics up to that of a sapient speaking bipedal being equal in intellect to a man. They've got robotics, skelebots, and up to bionic and cybernetic limb replacement all the way to full out Borgs, juicers and crazies.

There is no -----way------ you can have that, with out having people able to read.

Literacy is 'low' among the masses, but is not illegal. Nor is it absent.

SAMASzero wrote:
If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't have a 20-year expansion plan that involves territory held by non-hostile and even Human-controlled nations (Not just Tolkeen, they plann to take over the territories of Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Free Quebec too).

Free Quebec is old news. It WAS a member. Ceeded, there was a civil war, which is now over and they're allies. Again. You're throwing 'ONLY" out there which I didn't say. But that doesn't matter. They're expansionistic. They're reclaiming earth for humans. That they're expanding is in no way counter to that. They're starting with the territory around them. Why is Lazlo, new Lazlo in there? It's between chi town and Quebec. That's just geography. You don't have a power base, then skip over 1000s of miles of land and set up another power base. You grow out from what you have. You -expand-.

SAMASzero wrote:

If they were only concerned with saving Mankind, they wouldn't have a support structure whose alignments generally run the moral spectrum from Aberrant all the way to Diabolic (with that last one including the man in charge and his Heir Apparent).

Why not? Just because you're evil doesn't mean you can't also want humanity to survive. Karl is plenty evil killing the enemies of Mankind. And as pointed out. Many of their leaders are evil, but the people generally aren't. But being evil doesn't mean you instantly want humanity dead. There's plenty of ways to be evil and express evil things with out that. If nothing else, their wanting humanity to thrive can be seen as selfish. It gives them more power to do bigger things.

SAMASzero wrote:
The Coalition States is not the Imperium of Man. They are the biggest option, not the best choice of a bad lot.

They're not the only choice by far. They are just currently in the US, the option with the best chance, at present. I don't think the CS is 100% good. Not by far. Many of their actions are horrid. Their views of DBees is governed by 300 years of fear and due to that, are often wrong. Not every DBee is evil. But after 300 years of fighting the evil ones, "Better safe than sorry. Humans first" is a mindset easily understood.

SAMASzero wrote:

As for the 90% thing, again that's you taking something to the extreme. The books don't protray them like that at all.

Yeah, everyone knows it's more like 83%.

If you choose to protray the CS like that. As mindless black armored mooks or Loot pinyata's. That's your game. Many DO protray them like that. But it's not how they're -written-.

As with any RPG. Take what's there, adjust it to your preferences. That's fine and good, but in canon and as written they're not quite like that. Protraying them like that is taking a very 'dark gray' nation and pushing it deep into the black for the sake of your game. (( just like some take the dark gray and push it far to the white. it goes both ways for sure))