Why is the system so broken?

[Daeglan]

Another skill item. What is the penalty for using a skill completely untrained in it? What if you have a related skill? We could probably do with a skill tree of sorts as many skills seem to be more specializations of a more basic skill.

[Damian Magecraft]

Another skill item. What is the penalty for using a skill completely untrained in it? What if you have a related skill? We could probably do with a skill tree of sorts as many skills seem to be more specializations of a more basic skill.

official word from kevin is use the the attribute that is most appropriate as the base percentage (this imo has its own limitations but is a good system as any)

[Damian Magecraft]

1. The system is broken because damage values belie common sense. A martial arts roundhouse kick should not do as much damage (3d6 SDC) as a claymore, unless your name is Chuck Norris! Nor should an infantry rifle do as much damage as a gigantic robot gun, when they're both made by the same manufacturer.this is based on opinion there are many other systems that have the exact same damage distribution and they are not considered broken for it.

2. The system is broken because scaling is ludicrously uneven. A 50-foot robot should be somewhere around 800 times as tough and powerful and tough as a walking person. again based on personal bias; this is not the only system with this so called scaling issue and they are not considered broken.

3. The system is broken because it is not truly megaversal. Each game's rule sets are similar, but they are not interchangeable. A longbowman from Palladium Fantasy is used to fighting people who are -10 to dodge her arrows. In Rifts, everyone dodges those arrows without penalty. Each setting gets its tweaks to better emulate the genre of choice. That is a feature not a bug.

4. The system is broken because too many bonuses are situation-specific, and tracking all the specifics is a nightmare. One minor example: A lightning rod (England, Herbology section) makes you lightning proof, but only if it's touching the ground... how do you determine when it's touching, exactly? wait its broken because of situational modifiers, GM calls and bookkeeping? you want something other than a RPG altogether...

5. The system is broken because there are about 5 different rules on how to handle bursts. These variations are in books that are currently published and sold. and are for different genres see above

6. The system is broken because virtually no-one creates a character as described in the books. Rolling up stats and then picking an attribute-restricted class based on the randomized results is far to restricting. People will play the class they want to play.no one does it that way in any other random char gen system either are they broken as well?

7. The system is broken because it has no mechanics for retreating, surrender, or all kinds of other things that can happen in combat. It's also broken because there are alternate attack/melee round actions such as shooting arrows and casting spells that don't fit well into the melee round model.No argument there... missing or incomplete rules are things we are looking to find and fix.

8. The system is broken because technology-based classes are unsustainable away from a major military support facility. Ammunition, repairs, and e-clip replacement/recharging is far more expensive than what most players can hope to get in your average adventure.this is a play style issue not a system one.

9. The system is broken because you shouldn't need seven separate books to run through a one-theme campaign.you do not NEED 7 books just 1 maybe 2 (if you count core as 1 of the 2) but more is helpful.

10. The system is broken because skill percentages and their interpretations often seem to be arbitrarily assigned to where a highly-trained specialist would often fail a basic skill check. Even for someone with a high skill, there seem to be many ways in the published material to penalize a skill check, but almost no ways to help it out.You do not roll for the basics just the high pressure/complexity situations... But that does need to be more clearly addressed in the skills section.

so out of 10 reasons why its broken you really only produced 2 actual issues that are not steeped in personal bias.
read the threads that Alex M started a while back... you will see the exact same thing.... tons of posts all based in personal biases of what poster XYZ thinks the system "should" be. but barely any on what is actually really wrong with the system.
now can you see the reason why the Company has done nothing?

I do agree with his scaling issue. Scaling could use some work. Just because other systems suffer from this flaw does not mean it is not a flaw. It just means it is a tough nut to handle correctly. yes it is a sticky issue but as I pointed out other systems have this problem too and are not considered broken for it. I am pointing out its a double standard. could it use work? yes. broken? not by industry standards.

That a Claymore should not do the same damage as a kick. But then I think Most of the missiles and explosives are very under powered. A kick certainly should do less damage than a claymore. Or more accurately a claymore should do more. Claymores make lumpy spaghetti sauce. Kicks might break bones and might kill if lucky or repeated enough. Not in the same realm damage wise. still a personal bias... I feel the damages are reflective especially when you look at older descriptions of said kick he referencing "a karate style kick that does 3d6"

One that might be good mook type class of some sort. This would help address some of the combat grind. D&D had a good mechanic for it. helpful yes but a break? questionable.

On the skill issue. Skills ought to advance above 100% While a die roll of 99-00 should always be a failure. This will make it so those with high skills get effected by modifiers less while still having the potential to fail. It would also be good to have a degree of success mechanic of some sort. So when I succeed and the other guy succeeds who actually won? Perception should properly be fit into the skill system. the current method seems like a poorly implemented add on and does not take related skills or level into account.again I agree that the skill system does need expansion. I disagree that perception does not take into account skill level. Bonuses are applied at a rate of +1 per 10% of skill so as a skill climbs in ability its bonuses to perception also increase. (its not pretty or elegant but it does function.)

The modifier system could use some streamlining. It is good to have them. It is better if they are easy to apply on the fly. (not sure how much easier it could get but that may just be my own personal bias interfering.

I agree many actions in combat are not handled well. I also do not see a method for handling hit locations. Are they random or considered to only hit the center of mass? are there modifiers for targeting specifics. This makes hitting a vampire in the heart annoying as the rules are not clear. Hit locations are optional according to the rules... all strikes are considered to hit main body. By the book hitting a vamps heart is a called shot and follows those rules.

The Technology classes could do with some clarification. Namely on the issues he refers to as some game guidelines will help the play style issues. Formal rules on adding e-clip chargers to things like vehicles would fix a lot of this. The E-clip thread is a fine example of some solid guidelines would save a lot of headaches. not wanting to drag that argument in here... but... most of that argument centers around the "science" of a fictional item and not the rules... If anything one side wants us to ignore the rules that are given in favor of their "opinion" That is hardly proof of a break.

I agree you don't need 7 books. You can play with 1. 2 is helpful for the region you are in. As you travel others might become relevant.

Like I have said over and over...
before the system can be "fixed" personal bias has to be set aside.
And in this Hobby that is a difficult thing for folks to do.
I have played multiple systems over 35 years and I do not agree with everything in all of them but I at least recognize and admit that many of things I do not like in them have to do with personal bias and not the system being broken.
By the standards of many of the arguments for Palladium being broken I can prove that the top 5 selling games are just as broken if not worse.
Lose the bias folks and look at your arguments honestly...

[Hotrod]

Damian: You're right that my post is steeped in personal bias. The topic and original post invites us to post our opinion, and I did. We seem to have different views on what constitutes 'broken'. Here's mine:

1. If a player or GM applies the rules as written and the outcome routinely defies common sense.

2. If a rule is contradicted in published works (There are multiple rules for bursts in Rifts titles alone, by the way)

3. If it is too difficult for players and GMs to apply the rules and modifiers in the course of their games.

These are my measuring sticks of 'broken'. They do reflect my opinions... heck, they ARE my opinions. What's your criteria? You seem quick to dismiss many shortcomings because many other systems have similar shortcomings. This is a reasonable approach. I have no expectation that Kevin will drop everything to fix these issues.

I also think that it's important to identify what these issues are, even if other systems share them. That's what I thought this thread was all about.

A few clarifications:

1. The roundhouse kick I referenced is in RUE and PF2E.

2. The '7 books to run a single-theme campaign' refers to the Siege on Tolkeen. Although this is an exception, it's the single most-influential event of the setting.

[Hystrix]

2. The '7 books to run a single-theme campaign' refers to the Siege on Tolkeen. Although this is an exception, it's the single most-influential event of the setting.

You don't NEED SoT to run the game. If you want to run a game CENTERED on SoT then yes you should have a couple of those books. However, what your saying is equal to "I want to run a Forgotten Realms Campaign, but I don't wanna buy the books." That's silly.

I agree with Damien. You can get by with just a couple books. EVERY game system dose that. Most are worse. They make one or two (or three) core books, and then make a butt load of special book to enhance the setting. That how they make money.

However, with Rifts you could play with RUE. Heck, you could play easily with the original RMB. For specific stuff other books are important but not essential.

[Hotrod]

I'll concede on the book requirement. It's true, other than a SoT campaign,there isn't a driving necessity for lots of books (and RUE brings everything up to date; I really like the world overview in it). One could easily run a Japan-based campaign with only two books. In North America, it's a bit harder to ignore, but not impossible to do without.

[Damian Magecraft]

Damian: You're right that my post is steeped in personal bias. The topic and original post invites us to post our opinion, and I did. We seem to have different views on what constitutes 'broken'. Here's mine:

1. If a player or GM applies the rules as written and the outcome routinely defies common sense.

2. If a rule is contradicted in published works (There are multiple rules for bursts in Rifts titles alone, by the way)

3. If it is too difficult for players and GMs to apply the rules and modifiers in the course of their games.

These are my measuring sticks of 'broken'. They do reflect my opinions... heck, they ARE my opinions. What's your criteria? You seem quick to dismiss many shortcomings because many other systems have similar shortcomings. This is a reasonable approach. I have no expectation that Kevin will drop everything to fix these issues.

I also think that it's important to identify what these issues are, even if other systems share them. That's what I thought this thread was all about.

A few clarifications:

1. The roundhouse kick I referenced is in RUE and PF2E. A martial arts style kick... thanks for proving my point for me.

2. The '7 books to run a single-theme campaign' refers to the Siege on Tolkeen. Although this is an exception, it's the single most-influential event of the setting.

[Akashic Soldier]

Am I the only one who is aware of the "point blank" rules? The ones that the roundhouse kick can never utilize because its a kick.

Or how about the close range dodge penalties (-5 or -10 dependent on range) or the fact that to pull of said kick you have to be a trained professional fighter where as anyone can point a firearm and pull a trigger.

People are too quick to forget that Palladium is the game of circumstance and situation.

So yes...

Yes, the Homosexual Kung-Fu Butler can kill a man by kicking them in the face!
Yes, the cowboy can survive a gunshot wound to the chest.
And yes, its unlikely that a homosexual Kung-Fu Butler exists and its unlikely that someone would survive a gunshot wound. Neither are impossible, maybe not likely, but not impossible... and more to the point... its a game. Its supposed to be dramatic, cinematic, and fun. Rules are there so there is some order, some balance, some common ground! Not to tell you how many breathes your character draws in 15 seconds so you can measure his oxygen intake to see how long he could "realistically" hold his breath. Sure you CAN but to me that is a waste of book space. I'd rather just see... "Characters can hold their breath X minutes +X per point of P.E." For me, that is enough.

Palladium's STRENGTH as a game system is that it is so expansive and situational. Try to take that away and you might as well be playing D&D. It has just enough rules to get you by and just enough flexibility to remain balanced if handled correctly by a mature and fair Game Master.

Complaints like "this kick does too much" are silly to me. I've been kicked in the side of the head once by a running jump kick and it K.O.ed me. But I've also had my leg broken, an arrow in my right arm, stabbed in the forehead with a pocket knife, and shot in the foot, OH! and partially set on fire (one time). Yet, only the kick to the face knocked me out. Is it counter intuitive? Sure! Heck, a few weeks back I was bitten by a dog and that almost knocked me out too. I got really dizzy and could barely stay conscious BUT when I was losing blood in my foot I was fine, it hurt like 10 ***** on a *****, but I was fine.

I guess my point is (forgive me if I am rambling I am only half awake), that damage varies and the human body is freaking unpredictable! Or at least that's my experience.

[Damian Magecraft]

Am I the only one who is aware of the "point blank" rules? The ones that the roundhouse kick can never utilize because its a kick.

Or how about the close range dodge penalties (-5 or -10 dependent on range) or the fact that to pull of said kick you have to be a trained professional fighter where as anyone can point a firearm and pull a trigger.

People are too quick to forget that Palladium is the game of circumstance and situation.

So yes...

Yes, the Homosexual Kung-Fu Butler can kill a man by kicking them in the face!
Yes, the cowboy can survive a gunshot wound to the chest.
And yes, its unlikely that a homosexual Kung-Fu Butler exists and its unlikely that someone would survive a gunshot wound. Neither are impossible, maybe not likely, but not impossible... and more to the point... its a game. Its supposed to be dramatic, cinematic, and fun. Rules are there so there is some order, some balance, some common ground! Not to tell you how many breathes your character draws in 15 seconds so you can measure his oxygen intake to see how long he could "realistically" hold his breath. Sure you CAN but to me that is a waste of book space. I'd rather just see... "Characters can hold their breath X minutes +X per point of P.E." For me, that is enough.

Palladium's STRENGTH as a game system is that it is so expansive and situational. Try to take that away and you might as well be playing D&D. It has just enough rules to get you by and just enough flexibility to remain balanced if handled correctly by a mature and fair Game Master.

Complaints like "this kick does too much" are silly to me. I've been kicked in the side of the head once by a running jump kick and it K.O.ed me. But I've also had my leg broken, an arrow in my right arm, stabbed in the forehead with a pocket knife, and shot in the foot, OH! and partially set on fire (one time). Yet, only the kick to the face knocked me out. Is it counter intuitive? Sure! Heck, a few weeks back I was bitten by a dog and that almost knocked me out too. I got really dizzy and could barely stay conscious BUT when I was losing blood in my foot I was fine, it hurt like 10 ***** on a *****-boat, but I was fine.

I guess my point is (forgive me if I am rambling I am only half awake), that damage varies and the human body is freaking unpredictable! Or at least that's my experience.

You are ignoring one point that they do make...
All those rules you mention...
they are scattered throughout the book(s).
It is no wonder that they tend to be forgotten.
A purely mechanics only guide is desperately needed to sort out these breaks (both the perceived and actual) to the system.

[Akashic Soldier]

All those rules you mention...
they are scattered throughout the book(s).
It is no wonder that they tend to be forgotten.
A purely mechanics only guide is desperately needed to sort out these breaks (both the perceived and actual) to the system.

Where as sometimes its an issue I agree 90% of the rules you need are in the R:GMG. Its only little scattered obscure things like "penalties for fighting on a jungle planet" or "the effects of low gravity" that are an issue but with an experienced group that is hardly ever an issue. Yes, you cannot assume to have an experienced group but if people read and played instead of talking about it than there would be more experienced groups. Trust me, I've watched the evolution of a fair few players now and seen them grow from wet-ears to regular Rifters and most of the crap they know puts some of the regulars on the board here to shame (not saying that as an insult towards anyone, just stating an observation).

I mean, I know if I am lapsing in my Vampire knowledge I can say "Yo, Zac!" and he'll be able to tell me anything I need from VKr and even get me the page number in half the time I could. Its a group effort, ya know? Rifts is TOO BIG for one man to know ALL of it. No, that is an exaggeration. I take that back. I could but it'd be a waste of my time because knowing all that stuff doesn't automatically make the game more fun. As I said earlier, the point of the rules are to give you common ground and a honest measuring bar. Thats it. That is why Kevin says "Don't like it, change it!"

Its not because he thinks his own rules are **** or too scattered or broken, its because he understands that Game Balance isn't limited to specifics like "1D6x100 being too much for a laser pistol" or the semantics of the roundhouse kick. He understands its about contribution, flexibility, and storytelling. Read the GMG and you'll find a fun little story about one of his players trying to knock someone out and you'll see what I mean. You don't need to break the rules, but you shouldn't let them ruin the fun for everyone either. They're there to maintain BALANCE so that the game survives more than 1 or 2 sessions and so everyone has a good time and no one feels picked on.

[Daeglan]

My point on the round house kick is that at best a round house kick could if one is very lucky is break some bones Even if done by an MMA fighter. A claymore turns people to lumpy spaghetti sauce. not the same realm of damage. of course explosives soule have blast radii as well.

[Daeglan]

I think we are to the point where we should break this up into separate threads.

I think the following threads would be good.
Fixing Character Creation
Fixing Skills
Fixing Combat

[Hotrod]

Going off-topic here. Explosives don't really have a 'blast radius'. It's a matter of the type of explosives, the quantity of explosives, the inverse square of the distance, and how much overpressure a given target can take. A given explosive charge or piece of ordnance doesn't have a 'blast radius'. It has many, all depending on what it's affecting.For example, you may be far enough away from a blast that your non-environmental armor is totally unaffected, but your unprotected eardrums are blown out.

Of course, trying to simulate this in an RPG isn't really practical or fun. As long as the rules can approximate the effects, it's good enough for me.

Where things break down is where the approximations are either so far off or so inconsistent that they become implausible. I'd rather take a Kimbo Slice punch than a stab from a short sword (which also do the same damage). Game mechanics should reflect that (and many house rules do; our own were 'deadly weapons do direct damage to hitpoints'). The individual comparisons aren't that significant by themselves. What is significant is that I can find many more such comparisons.

[Damian Magecraft]

My point on the round house kick is that at best a round house kick could if one is very lucky is break some bones Even if done by an MMA fighter. A claymore turns people to lumpy spaghetti sauce. not the same realm of damage. of course explosives soule have blast radii as well.

and I have seen a mans neck snapped with "just" a kick. this is a hobby wide issue that no one has ever satisfactorily resolved. lets not try and re-invent the wheel here.

[Killer Cyborg]

My point on the round house kick is that at best a round house kick could if one is very lucky is break some bones Even if done by an MMA fighter. A claymore turns people to lumpy spaghetti sauce. not the same realm of damage. of course explosives soule have blast radii as well.

and I have seen a mans neck snapped with "just" a kick. this is a hobby wide issue that no one has ever satisfactorily resolved. lets not try and re-invent the wheel here.

The most deadly roundhouse kick in all of human history does NOT compare to the most deadly claymore strike in all of human history.
Not unless that roundhouse kick knocked the guy into a swinging claymore.

[Damian Magecraft]

My point on the round house kick is that at best a round house kick could if one is very lucky is break some bones Even if done by an MMA fighter. A claymore turns people to lumpy spaghetti sauce. not the same realm of damage. of course explosives soule have blast radii as well.

and I have seen a mans neck snapped with "just" a kick. this is a hobby wide issue that no one has ever satisfactorily resolved. lets not try and re-invent the wheel here.

The most deadly roundhouse kick in all of human history does NOT compare to the most deadly claymore strike in all of human history.
Not unless that roundhouse kick knocked the guy into a swinging claymore.

not arguing that point at all...
just pointing out that damage scaling is an industry wide problem and not one that is going to be fixed without requiring a graphing calculator at the table top. (and that is not conducive to convincing folks the system is easy to learn).

[Killer Cyborg]

My point on the round house kick is that at best a round house kick could if one is very lucky is break some bones Even if done by an MMA fighter. A claymore turns people to lumpy spaghetti sauce. not the same realm of damage. of course explosives soule have blast radii as well.

and I have seen a mans neck snapped with "just" a kick. this is a hobby wide issue that no one has ever satisfactorily resolved. lets not try and re-invent the wheel here.

The most deadly roundhouse kick in all of human history does NOT compare to the most deadly claymore strike in all of human history.
Not unless that roundhouse kick knocked the guy into a swinging claymore.

not arguing that point at all...
just pointing out that damage scaling is an industry wide problem and not one that is going to be fixed without requiring a graphing calculator at the table top. (and that is not conducive to convincing folks the system is easy to learn).

Other systems have other ways to deal with it.
In D&D 3.5, fists and feet inflict non-lethal damage as a rule, for example.
Palladium could do something similar for their rule system.

Simply having bladed/piercing attacks inflict straight-to-HP damage instead of normal SDC damage would solve a LOT of the issues.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Complaints like "this kick does too much" are silly to me. I've been kicked in the side of the head once by a running jump kick and it K.O.ed me. But I've also had my leg broken, an arrow in my right arm, stabbed in the forehead with a pocket knife, and shot in the foot, OH! and partially set on fire (one time). Yet, only the kick to the face knocked me out. Is it counter intuitive? Sure! Heck, a few weeks back I was bitten by a dog and that almost knocked me out too. I got really dizzy and could barely stay conscious BUT when I was losing blood in my foot I was fine, it hurt like 10 ***** on a *****-boat, but I was fine.

I guess my point is (forgive me if I am rambling I am only half awake), that damage varies and the human body is freaking unpredictable! Or at least that's my experience.

Dude, what hellhole do you live in?

[Tor]

I've been kicked in the side of the head once by a running jump kick and it K.O.ed me. But I've also had my leg broken, an arrow in my right arm, stabbed in the forehead with a pocket knife, and shot in the foot, OH! and partially set on fire (one time). Yet, only the kick to the face knocked me out.

Your shot foot, broken leg and arrowed arm don't count because that's just like... main body stuff. It's only those called shots to the head that matter! Now presumably your skull stopped the knife somehow. I'm pretty sure it's implied that you can't do knockout attacks with stabbing/slashing movements.

One could certainly do a knockout/stun with a kick though, and that's why it was the best.

[Sureshot]

I think this needs to be brought up yet again. Houseruling is not a selling feature. Too many on this board forget that. A person getting into a rpg wants to use the RAW. Houseruling only if they need to house rule. Nor is the ability a rpg to be house ruled limited PB rpgs. Every rpg encourages it. PB rpgs are the only one where the devs instead of actually addressing certain issues of the system tell everyone else to do. Certain rules that are obscure, contradict each other, scattered all over the place need to be addressed by the devs. I want to play and run a rpg. Not spend my time house ruling.

Damian makes a good point about the need of a book that explain all the mechanics of the game in a clear concise manner. PB is lacking in that department. Every time I read RUE I always leave with the impression a book that had a workable system. Clunky in some parts. The overall book is imo just very badly designed. Stuff is all over the place. The missile table almost looks like it was left out and tossed into the book with a small font size at the very last minute. I want everything that I need for designing a character in one place. Same thing for combat. Laid out in a very professional and modern format. Not the jumble that is the average core book. With a table of contents and a index. Anything and everything to make my life easier. As it stands imo I can still do it just annoying as hell at least for me.

A big step for me would be a official rule altering damage values of vehicles, robots and anything larger than power armor. No way should a hand weapon out damage say a tank or a robot. Damage values were nerfed on purpose from the start to ensure player survivability. When it imo ruins the immersion of the setting. When a guy in a 50 mdc can survive a blast from a tank well suspension of belief can only get you so far imo.

[Nightmask]

I think this needs to be brought up yet again. Houseruling is not a selling feature. Too many on this board forget that. A person getting into a rpg wants to use the RAW. Houseruling only if they need to house rule. Nor is the ability a rpg to be house ruled limited PB rpgs. Every rpg encourages it. PB rpgs are the only one where the devs instead of actually addressing certain issues of the system tell everyone else to do. Certain rules that are obscure, contradict each other, scattered all over the place need to be addressed by the devs. I want to play and run a rpg. Not spend my time house ruling.

Damian makes a good point about the need of a book that explain all the mechanics of the game in a clear concise manner. PB is lacking in that department. Every time I read RUE I always leave with the impression a book that had a workable system. Clunky in some parts. The overall book is imo just very badly designed. Stuff is all over the place. The missile table almost looks like it was left out and tossed into the book with a small font size at the very last minute. I want everything that I need for designing a character in one place. Same thing for combat. Laid out in a very professional and modern format. Not the jumble that is the average core book. With a table of contents and a index. Anything and everything to make my life easier. As it stands imo I can still do it just annoying as hell at least for me.

A big step for me would be a official rule altering damage values of vehicles, robots and anything larger than power armor. No way should a hand weapon out damage say a tank or a robot. Damage values were nerfed on purpose from the start to ensure player survivability. When it imo ruins the immersion of the setting. When a guy in a 50 mdc can survive a blast from a tank well suspension of belief can only get you so far imo.

So basically desire for the Palladium version of a GURPS set-up, where a concise book providing uniform rules for all the settings, cleaning up all the confusion, and still completely compatible with existing material so that all current books remain viable for purchase and use with it?

[Daeglan]

sounds like a good start to me. Although i think it will be Rifts world.

[Sureshot]

Not Gurps necessairily. Just a spruced up cleaned up version of the rules with decent production values. One set of gun rules. With rules to cover any and every situation.

[Sureshot]

Not Gurps necessairily. Just a spruced up cleaned up version of the rules with decent production values. One set of gun rules. With rules to cover any and every situation.

[ZorValachan]

Clarification and Organization.

When I wrote my RPG, I made sure every skill and combat situation not only had a simple example, but a complex example.

Such as when combat is being described, I had both an example of the attack/defense mechanic of 'melee' combat. Then explained magic combat. Finally I gave a full description and example of how a character would use both magic and a weapon in the same combat round.

Such as with climbing, I stated in the skill how far one moved between skill checks, damage from falls, and then how trying to do other actions (combat, magic, etc.) would affect both the climb and the other action.

I would love to see this type of clarification/organization done in PB. In fact the main reason I did so in my own game was because of the frustration of hunting for rules and with many rules not having examples/clarifications.

[Daeglan]

So I was thinking. Hand to hand fighting styles should not effect ranged combat. IE why does hand to hand martial arts give a person using a rifle more actions? shouldn't there be some sort of ranged fighting style that covers that? and hand to hand just handles hand to hand?

[eliakon]

So I was thinking. Hand to hand fighting styles should not effect ranged combat. IE why does hand to hand martial arts give a person using a rifle more actions? shouldn't there be some sort of ranged fighting style that covers that? and hand to hand just handles hand to hand?

Because its all accretion. Originally wwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyy back in the day there was H2H, and Archery and Magic (and its wholly owned subisidary psionics) and each had its own rules. As things got added on more and more things got rolled into other things. The idea of 'each class has its own combat table' became 'a couple of hand to hand tables' then modern weapons, and robots, and.....yah.

[Damian Magecraft]

So I was thinking. Hand to hand fighting styles should not effect ranged combat. IE why does hand to hand martial arts give a person using a rifle more actions? shouldn't there be some sort of ranged fighting style that covers that? and hand to hand just handles hand to hand?

Because its all accretion. Originally wwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyy back in the day there was H2H, and Archery and Magic (and its wholly owned subisidary psionics) and each had its own rules. As things got added on more and more things got rolled into other things. The idea of 'each class has its own combat table' became 'a couple of hand to hand tables' then modern weapons, and robots, and.....yah.

no it was more for simplification...
Originally all ranged weapons had ROF (yes even firearms) but it was a complete nightmare when it mixed with melee and powers combat. (go read the 1st ed HU book you will see what I mean.)
removing the ROF rules from modern combat sped the flow of combat immensely. in others words it was a design choice to speed up play and no matter how much you despise that choice do not look for it to change anytime soon.

[tmikesecrist3]

there was some one that gave ranged styles, that leveled like hand to hand cant rember who that was or where it was but I think it was posted in the forms... it looked like an interesting option.... but in a nutshell how many attacks you have are how many hand to hand attacks you have.... and I can see that you have to slow down get a sight picter control your mussles control your breathing, and then sques the triger and let the weapon fire itself, then for the next shot you have to do all that an a just for recoile I can see how hand to had training with fire arms training could have an effect... but thats just me

[Killer Cyborg]

I've always found threads like this one humorous. Rifts is Rifts because of the Rifts system. If you change the system it's not longer Rifts. Seriously some of you guys probably buy a football video game then complain it isn't a hockey video game.

Rifts today is already far different from the Rifts of 1990, because Palladium has already changed the system so much.
So I'm not sure of your point.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've always found threads like this one humorous. Rifts is Rifts because of the Rifts system. If you change the system it's not longer Rifts. Seriously some of you guys probably buy a football video game then complain it isn't a hockey video game.

Rifts today is already far different from the Rifts of 1990, because Palladium has already changed the system so much.
So I'm not sure of your point.

[Blue_Lion]

ON the multiple rules in rifts for burst fire, it was an atempt to find a rule that worked so several new options where tried but RUE was made to over write all earler rules for burst fire. So they had a few attempts to improve it and as they still publish almost every book out dated rules are floating around.

The scaling in rifts is to focus on the hereo player charter not giant mech battles. If a inftry class could not stand up if a robot that player X starts with was on the field every one whould play the robot pilot. So the damage may seam illgical but it is to put the focus on the party.

[flatline]

I've always found threads like this one humorous. Rifts is Rifts because of the Rifts system. If you change the system it's not longer Rifts. Seriously some of you guys probably buy a football video game then complain it isn't a hockey video game.

Rifts is the setting. Settings and systems can be decoupled, although switching systems usually has the effect of changing the existing balance of the setting a bit, so the decoupling isn't perfectly clean.

--flatline

[GenThunderfist]

My point on the round house kick is that at best a round house kick could if one is very lucky is break some bones Even if done by an MMA fighter. A claymore turns people to lumpy spaghetti sauce. not the same realm of damage. of course explosives soule have blast radii as well.

and I have seen a mans neck snapped with "just" a kick. this is a hobby wide issue that no one has ever satisfactorily resolved. lets not try and re-invent the wheel here.

The most deadly roundhouse kick in all of human history does NOT compare to the most deadly claymore strike in all of human history.
Not unless that roundhouse kick knocked the guy into a swinging claymore.

not arguing that point at all...
just pointing out that damage scaling is an industry wide problem and not one that is going to be fixed without requiring a graphing calculator at the table top. (and that is not conducive to convincing folks the system is easy to learn).

Other systems have other ways to deal with it.
In D&D 3.5, fists and feet inflict non-lethal damage as a rule, for example.
Palladium could do something similar for their rule system.

Simply having bladed/piercing attacks inflict straight-to-HP damage instead of normal SDC damage would solve a LOT of the issues.

I see what you are saying, but then you get the same suspension of disbelief as you need now for a claymore and a round house kick. I mean, people have been killed because of a couple good unarmed strikes, and others have lived with their limbs hacked off. So you end up with people asking "Why can't I kill him by bludgeoning him to death and caving in his skull? It works in life..." and you have to respond "Well, it's the rules." It's similar to now asking why this sword and my kick don't match life correctly. It's a problem all around the board and once you fix it one way, you are usually wrong in another way.
However 3.5 did get it closer than others, but it's still requiring a good amount of suspended disbelief when I can't kill my enemy by punching him, but I can carve his heart out with a letter opener

[Hotrod]

I see what you are saying, but then you get the same suspension of disbelief as you need now for a claymore and a round house kick. I mean, people have been killed because of a couple good unarmed strikes, and others have lived with their limbs hacked off. So you end up with people asking "Why can't I kill him by bludgeoning him to death and caving in his skull? It works in life..." and you have to respond "Well, it's the rules." It's similar to now asking why this sword and my kick don't match life correctly. It's a problem all around the board and once you fix it one way, you are usually wrong in another way.
However 3.5 did get it closer than others, but it's still requiring a good amount of suspended disbelief when I can't kill my enemy by punching him, but I can carve his heart out with a letter opener

Palladium already has mechanics for this with no house rules involved. The 'Death Blow' does double damage to hitpoints, bypassing SDC. A skilled fighter can still kill someone with his bare hands. Sure, a deadly weapon is better, but it can be done.

The deadly-weapon-direct-to-hitpoints house rule is a far more believable approach than the dagger-that-does-less-damage-than-a-karate-punch mechanic that is currently in place.

[Sureshot]

The scaling in rifts is to focus on the hereo player charter not giant mech battles. If a inftry class could not stand up if a robot that player X starts with was on the field every one whould play the robot pilot. So the damage may seam illgical but it is to put the focus on the party.

Still increasing damage values imo should not remove the focus from the party. It would add more realism without removing the focus.

[Sureshot]

My point is people seem or argue for a complete and utter revamp of a system. IE changing football rules to hockey. IMO I find it funny and annoying at the same time. That's it.

You do realize that a streamlining is not a rules revision. While I personally would like to see a total revamp i get that it will never happen. Some in the thread want to focus on taking what is already there. Polishing it. clarifiying it and trying to make it as easy as possible to use. Something needs to be done with the rules because I cant see things getting better for PB. Or at least prevent the downward spiral that imo the company seems locked in.

[Damian Magecraft]

The scaling in rifts is to focus on the hereo player charter not giant mech battles. If a inftry class could not stand up if a robot that player X starts with was on the field every one whould play the robot pilot. So the damage may seam illgical but it is to put the focus on the party.

Still increasing damage values imo should not remove the focus from the party. It would add more realism without removing the focus.

slight bumping I can see...
But lets use a video game analogy...
how peeved off would you get if a modern vid game kills off your character and resets the game back to start with a one hit kill?
Better yet how long would you play that game before saying "the hell with this ****" and moving on to the next game?

[eliakon]

The scaling in rifts is to focus on the hereo player charter not giant mech battles. If a inftry class could not stand up if a robot that player X starts with was on the field every one whould play the robot pilot. So the damage may seam illgical but it is to put the focus on the party.

Still increasing damage values imo should not remove the focus from the party. It would add more realism without removing the focus.

And once again we venture into the wilds of "I think we need X" vs "the system needs X"

[Jefffar]

Hey gang, can we keep the discussion focused on Palladium's system. I moved the DnD 3.5 talk to the Other Games forum where it belongs.

[Akashic Soldier]

Dude, what hellhole do you live in?

New South Wales Australia.
Clarence Valley, Hunter Region.

Nothing I've been through is particularly horrific. While in Scouts at Camp Eagle eye this guy from 5th Grafton was fire jumping a bon fire and got their pants leg hooked and fell in. Needless to say THAT was horrific.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey gang, can we keep the discussion focused on Palladium's system. I moved the DnD 3.5 talk to the Other Games forum where it belongs.

Well, it was an example of the kind of thing that Palladium could do... only Palladium could do it better.
But okay.

Point is that SDC is a brilliant concept that is entirely under-utilized.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Dude, what hellhole do you live in?

New South Wales Australia.
Clarence Valley, Hunter Region.

Nothing I've been through is particularly horrific. While in Scouts at Camp Eagle eye this guy from 5th Grafton was fire jumping a bon fire and got their pants leg hooked and fell in. Needless to say THAT was horrific.

Okay. I was figuring either you were in a very hunter-heavy area or Somalia.

[Jefffar]

Hey gang, can we keep the discussion focused on Palladium's system. I moved the DnD 3.5 talk to the Other Games forum where it belongs.

Well, it was an example of the kind of thing that Palladium could do... only Palladium could do it better.
But okay.

Point is that SDC is a brilliant concept that is entirely under-utilized.

Yes, HP, SDC and the relationship between could have been leveraged nicely. Discussing if you could kill an unoncious person with your bare hands in DD3.5 has nothing really to do with that though


Personally, I think SDC should be bypassed by weapons and other potentially 'lethal' attacks.

[Killer Cyborg]

Personally, I think SDC should be bypassed by weapons and other potentially 'lethal' attacks.

Agreed.

[Akashic Soldier]

Okay. I was figuring either you were in a very hunter-heavy area or Somalia.

Hunter is the name of The Region.

Also...

Now presumably your skull stopped the knife somehow.

Yup, I still have a V indention scar right on the top of my hairline in the middle of my forehead. You can hardly see it but its easy to feel. Its just a small triangular chunk/indention now. I got it when one of the local Aboriginals was stoned off his face (or wasted as per usual) and asking for cigarettes from my best friend at the time and he didnt have any... you know... because we were 14 years old. We tried leaving, he chased us, then when he caught us he got pissed that we had made him run when we didn't even have any smokes so we got into a fight. My friend was with his little sister at the time and so he ran her off to the Sataton across the road (all this happened in the main street) and I copped a knife to the head. Son of a ***** stabbed me right in the head but as you said my skull stopped it and because I was right in front of the local firehouse they patched me up and drove me over to the ambulance station (It was closer than the hospital/emergency room). Small town Australia, gotta love it.

It all happened right over there to the left by the sign and the tiny hut (which is a bus stop). The fire house is just behind the palm trees.

Personally, I think SDC should be bypassed by weapons and other potentially 'lethal' attacks.

According to the R:GMG and the write up for S.D.C. in (I want to say, Conversion Book 1?) it does! Its just SDC are your hero hit points. They're your ability to carry on despite being stabbed or kicked or beaten savagely with a tire iron. Its not that being stabbed isn't lethal, its that the person is such a badass that getting stabbed isnt such a big deal for them.

[Damian Magecraft]

Personally, I think SDC should be bypassed by weapons and other potentially 'lethal' attacks.

Agreed.

would that not lead to the opposite problem? of rendering SDC meaningless?

[eliakon]

Personally, I think SDC should be bypassed by weapons and other potentially 'lethal' attacks.

Agreed.

would that not lead to the opposite problem? of rendering SDC meaningless?

Besides which isn't this again a 'I think that the rules should be' not a "the rules are broken because of X"

That said the 'cinimatics' are not a bug, they are a feature, the game was WRITTEN to be cinematic

[Jefffar]

Personally, I think SDC should be bypassed by weapons and other potentially 'lethal' attacks.

Agreed.

would that not lead to the opposite problem? of rendering SDC meaningless?

Depends what else you do with it.

Tying it into getting knocked unconscious and the defects of stun type weapons would give heroes the option of knocking out bad guys with their fists instead of killing them . . . which doesn't matter as much most of the time in Rifts, but is far more important in Ninjas and Superspies or Heroes Unlimited for example.

[Akashic Soldier]

Depends what else you do with it.

Tying it into getting knocked unconscious and the defects of stun type weapons would give heroes the option of knocking out bad guys with their fists instead of killing them . . . which doesn't matter as much most of the time in Rifts, but is far more important in Ninjas and Superspies or Heroes Unlimited for example.

You can find the rules for knocking folks out with a sap in Merc Ops (I believe its Merc Ops?)

You can also find taser weapons everywhere from World Book Australia to World Book Japan.