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grandmaster z0b wrote:How did the Xiticix know the number of troops?

It's almost the entire population of Atlanta, Georgia. It's more people than Minneapolis City Minnesota, Miami Florida, Oakland CA, Honolulu and Tulsa.

Somehow I think they would notice and have a fairly good idea of rough numbers.

really will everybody close togethor with smoke generators running, witrh maybe tear gas mixed in with it along with hiding troops inside vechile as many as they can. and the Xiticix are going to break a pad and paper and a calculator

Alejandro wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:yeah as long as they are moving away from my entire hive, i'll be happy to have some of my troops to keep an eye on them and send scouts to check the surround hiveland and close the border down quick. not like the Xiticix has access to the coalition census reports that 400k might be a ploy to draw a lot number of my troops on to them and them they hit the hives with a more powerful force. if i was looking to take a rival that how i would do it.

You're not a bug, let alone a genius bug. You're a human being. What YOU would do is completely different from what a giant intelligent insect in a hive community would do.

yeah i just offer a reason why the force was not the size it was as it should have been.

Alejandro wrote:I'm impressed this argument has reached 26 pages with the same people saying the same thing over & over again.

should have been here for the teleport into a sealed enviroment one and it's 16 pages for me

Alejandro wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:

Alejandro wrote:I'm impressed this argument has reached 26 pages with the same people saying the same thing over & over again.

should have been here for the teleport into a sealed enviroment one and it's 16 pages for me

I was.

then you know

Mech-Viper wrote:i'm bet as long as people were still in body armor and the armor is still contained they would be not increase in numbers as long as the compartment is sealed, they dont know how many is in there. but now you have smoke going off maybe a few tear gas grenades too to mess with sense of smell

They never take any part of their armor off? That's far-fetched. Of course they take their helmets and gauntlets off, and that is just to eat. Armor has air-recycling intakes and exhausts, too; that'll carry odors. They're going to have to disconnect parts of their armor for excretion, several times a day. I don't recall there being built-in w/c facilities in APCs, and that means people are going to be hanging butt out of moving vehicles, probably several times a day. (2) That would be a sight I could definitely pass on. But it also just might be an explanation for why very few APCs were destroyed (and so keeping the column moving) . . . the Xiticix got their 25% share of the force by swooping down on soldiers hung out of the side of the APC taking a dump. It would put a whole new fear into the men about a simple biological function. "What, me? No, I don't need to go right now!"

Smoke and tear-gas are just two smells to so sensitive a being(1) (Xiticix aren't sense-flashed by intense olfactory sensory impressions) with so sensitive a nose. It can smell every different odor in a vast collection of odors.

Oh, yes. After ripping open the first APC early on, they would have an excellent way of estimating the total troops in the rest of the vehicles.

Their sense of smell would tell them one thing, and their visual observations of their first vehicular kill would tell them another.

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(1) A Xiticix can recognize an odor by only a few molecules (WB23:XI p.38 col.1), this includes gases.

(2) Since they're all eating MREs or the equivalent, and are in constant terror from hundreds of thousands of Xiticix hovering overhead and attacking them and their comrades, there will be plenty of cases of "overactive bowls" (or whatever you would like to call it).

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Note: If they're all inside vehicles, and 25% of the troops were lost, that means, roughly, that 25% of the vehicles were lost. When vehicles are destroyed, armored columns tend to come to a halt.

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A column of 10,000 APCs, each 33' 6" in length, with 1/2 vehicle length separation, is going to be is about 95.2 miles long. It's silly-funny just thinking about it. Does anyone want to speculate on what the road handling needs of a column that long are? Militaries don't deploy traffic MPs for nothing, and they don't experience column-snarls for nothing, either (and that's in peacetime!).

The column would have stopped and it would have been for longer than three minutes. Even if it was just to a single vehicle in the middle bogging down in the swirl of churned blood and oil soaked dirt, or to the loss of a wheel or track, etc.

As I mentioned before, there would be no single column after a short time. It would be a mess of individual columns separated by terrain obstacles, wrecks, and breakdowns.

Fyrpower wrote:If I was a Xiticix queen I would see this as a golden opportunity to feed my entire Hive for a long, long time to see it expand to a massive scale.

Yes. A giant sludge source equals a massive expansion.

Mech-Viper wrote:yeah i suppose to believe tolkeen destory every aircraft in holmes command, but no beleive he could make a trip thru bug country

I don't believe Tolkeen got all the air transports, just many of them.

Of those that got away, some flew north after Holmes, right into the Hiveland swarms filling the skies, and were destroyed. The rest went south (by whatever route) to the CS (or, in canon, perhaps east to the Great Lakes).

Mech-Viper wrote:but hey holmes gamble and hit the jackpot, believe or not, it happens in vegas all the time

The magic pill is one of the least satisfactory story elements in fiction, especially the large magic pills, because they are so difficult to swallow.

Mech-Viper wrote:yeah as long as they are moving away from my entire hive, i'll be happy to have some of my troops to keep an eye on them and send scouts to check the surround hiveland and close the border down quick.

You would be happy with this, but you are not a Xiticix.

The xiticix don't seem to operate on far-future planning. They are very much like insects. Their fears are rooted in the now, not some point in the future. It is why they send out raiding swarms so soon after an attack is over, because two weeks later they won't be agitated enough to do it.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:yeah i suppose to believe tolkeen destory every aircraft in holmes command, but no beleive he could make a trip thru bug country

I don't believe Tolkeen got all the air transports, just many of them.

Of those that got aways, some flew north after Holmes, right into the Hiveland swarms filling the skies, and were destroyed. The rest went south (by whatever route) to the CS (or, in canon, perhaps east to the Great Lakes).

Mech-Viper wrote:but hey holmes gamble and hit the jackpot, believe or not, it happens in vegas all the time

The magic pill is one of the least satisfactory story elements in fiction, especially the large magic pills, because they are so difficult to swallow.

most of the CS forces run some dont and 87% of them died but tolkeen losted 53% in overall attack, i think more the a handful of transport made it out and i think a some of them were holmes , and they ended up following the main body on the death march

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:yeah as long as they are moving away from my entire hive, i'll be happy to have some of my troops to keep an eye on them and send scouts to check the surround hiveland and close the border down quick.

You would be happy with this, but you are not a Xiticix.

The xiticix don't seem to operate on far-future planning. They are very much like insects. Their fears are rooted in the now, not some point in the future. It is why they send out raiding swarms so soon after an attack is over, because two weeks later they won't be agitated enough to do it.

that might a standard tactic on thier homeworld, large invasion the another large size one hits the hive killing all the eggs and little maggots and queen

Mech-Viper wrote:really will everybody close togethor with smoke generators running, witrh maybe tear gas mixed in with it along with hiding troops inside vechile as many as they can. and the Xiticix are going to break a pad and paper and a calculator

They wouldn't use a calculator. At first, their noses would sort through the panolpy of odors arising from the column, then their eyes would tell them what they needed to know from the first few APCs they ripped open. After that they would just instinctively realize how many forces they were facing from the general size of the column and more and more Xiticix would arrive. I don't actually think you would get the full 2/4 Xiticix assignment, because they would likely begin at one end of the column and devour it up through the other end. 20-30,000 Xiticix concentrated on one-half of a mile of a 95.2 mile long column will clean up through overwhelming concentration of mass and the few that were killed would be rapidly replaced from the hovering high guard.

Alejandro wrote:I'm impressed this argument has reached 26 pages with the same people saying the same thing over & over again.

The alternative is no discussion at all and sitting and staring at our computer monitors.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:really will everybody close togethor with smoke generators running, witrh maybe tear gas mixed in with it along with hiding troops inside vechile as many as they can. and the Xiticix are going to break a pad and paper and a calculator

They wouldn't use a calculator. At first, their noses would sort through the panolpy of odors arising from the column, then their eyes would tell them what they needed to know from the first few APCs they ripped open. After that they would just instinctively realize how many forces they were facing from the general size of the column and more and more Xiticix would arrive. I don't actually think you would get the full 2/4 Xiticix assignment, because they would likely begin at one end of the column and devour it up through the other end. 20-30,000 Xiticix concentrated on one-half of a mile of a 95.2 mile long column will clean up through overwhelming concentration of mass and the few that were killed would be rapidly replaced from the hovering high guard.

well since it wasnt all apc i guess the line wasnt that long

Alejandro wrote:Or realizing that neither camp's members are going to change their position on the subject. Though honestly I enjoy watching people slam their heads against rocks...so this is just my digital schaudenfruede

<I bow deeply />

I am overjoyed that my self-injury is of such interest and entertainment.

Actually, in some discussions, I have been known to change my mind.

Several good points have been brought up along the way in favor of the Holmes Maneuver in general, but IMO they are defeated by the massive logical holes that one could drive a Mechanoid Mothership through.

• The information in WB23 does appear to contraindicate the possibility of the events as written in SoT 5. It is known officially in gaming circles as "retcon", or retroactive continuity, or something I despise except when absolutely unavoidable (and it was avoidable here). ("Holmes sending a bunch of skelebots into the Hiveland and then sneaking off with 400k soldiers . . ." eh, it's still a magic pill, but it's not as big a one. And Tolkeen's watchers would have seen him coming. Even if no troops were watching, there would have been magic wards and guardians in place since many years in the past.")
• The whole situation seems very contrived on numerous points.
• The numbers given for the CS forces are far too large (by a factor of more than 10).
• The consequences of such larges numbers are extensive far beyond the fact that the demographics and economy of the CS can't provide the troops or their equipment to things like food requirements, etc.
• The situation appears insufficiently described in the books.

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Here's a tale that one author once told me about fiction writing.

"I know of a case where a couple's son ran away to NYC (he left a note) after experiencing some problems with them. They immediately travelled to NYC and took a hotel in Times Square to take up searching for him. The police told them it was hopeless, that NYC was such a big place that they could never hope to find their son on their own. On the first night of the couple's stay, the mother went down into Times Square and looked around through the crowd. She turned around to face in a new direction, and ran face-first into her son! They had a tearful reunion, and that was the end. A true story. You couldn't write about that in a fictional story because not only does it seem far-fetched and unbelievable, but it isn't satisfying to the reader."

Mech-Viper wrote:well since it wasnt all apc i guess the line wasnt that long

I eagerly await your estimation of the numbers.

I actually had about the same though as Mech-Viper regarding the 2:1 ratio. The bugs might well not know how many troops are in each vehicle, assuming that everybody was inside (or on top of) sealed vehicles.
Although RainOfSteel's counterpoint is pretty good, I'd say that the bugs might indeed not count the troops inside of the vehicles.
XI stated that they send 4 bugs per robot or vehicle, not that they send 4 + the number of pilots & passengers.

Of course, that does bring up another problem. If everybody is inside vehicles, then the bugs would shoot at the vehicles themselves.
Which means that pretty soon, Holmes and his men would be out of vehicles and they'd have to walk.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Although RainOfSteel's counterpoint is pretty good

Danke!

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'd say that the bugs might indeed not count the troops inside of the vehicles.

Yes, it's possible.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Of course, that does bring up another problem. If everybody is inside vehicles, then the bugs would shoot at the vehicles themselves.
Which means that pretty soon, Holmes and his men would be out of vehicles and they'd have to walk.

And that means they would come to a halt, because walking leads to stopping, and stopping leads to dying, and dying leads to sludge.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:i'm bet as long as people were still in body armor and the armor is still contained they would be not increase in numbers as long as the compartment is sealed, they dont know how many is in there. but now you have smoke going off maybe a few tear gas grenades too to mess with sense of smell

They never take any part of their armor off? That's far-fetched. Of course they take their helmets and gauntlets off, and that is just to eat. Armor has air-recycling intakes and exhausts, too; that'll carry odors. They're going to have to disconnect parts of their armor for excretion, several times a day. I don't recall there being built-in w/c facilities in APCs, and that means people are going to be hanging butt out of moving vehicles, probably several times a day. (2) That would be a sight I could definitely pass on. But it also just might be an explanation for why very few APCs were destroyed (and so keeping the column moving) . . . the Xiticix got their 25% share of the force by swooping down on soldiers hung out of the side of the APC taking a dump. It would put a whole new fear into the men about a simple biological function. "What, me? No, I don't need to go right now!"

Smoke and tear-gas are just two smells to so sensitive a being(1) (Xiticix aren't sense-flashed by intense olfactory sensory impressions) with so sensitive a nose. It can smell every different odor in a vast collection of odors.

Oh, yes. After ripping open the first APC early on, they would have an excellent way of estimating the total troops in the rest of the vehicles.

Their sense of smell would tell them one thing, and their visual observations of their first vehicular kill would tell them another.

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(1) A Xiticix can recognize an odor by only a few molecules (WB23:XI p.38 col.1), this includes gases.

(2) Since they're all eating MREs or the equivalent, and are in constant terror from hundreds of thousands of Xiticix hovering overhead and attacking them and their comrades, there will be plenty of cases of "overactive bowls" (or whatever you would like to call it).

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Note: If they're all inside vehicles, and 25% of the troops were lost, that means, roughly, that 25% of the vehicles were lost. When vehicles are destroyed, armored columns tend to come to a halt.

---------------------------------------------

A column of 10,000 APCs, each 33' 6" in length, with 1/2 vehicle length separation, is going to be is about 95.2 miles long. It's silly-funny just thinking about it. Does anyone want to speculate on what the road handling needs of a column that long are? Militaries don't deploy traffic MPs for nothing, and they don't experience column-snarls for nothing, either (and that's in peacetime!).

The column would have stopped and it would have been for longer than three minutes. Even if it was just to a single vehicle in the middle bogging down in the swirl of churned blood and oil soaked dirt, or to the loss of a wheel or track, etc.

As I mentioned before, there would be no single column after a short time. It would be a mess of individual columns separated by terrain obstacles, wrecks, and breakdowns.

sorry dont see the large mechs letting the bugs rip apart without swatting them and , under heavy smoke.

so you are saying they have food, personally i see them going in a bucket and once it full throwing it outside or maybe at xiticix, flying at them, there alot of way to fight back without using lethal force, a couple of zippo bombs might make xiticix alittle less then eager to mess with certain apcs. i stuff like this happening thru the entire convoy, lighter fluid bombs, being whitewashed with the portable toilet and other unique ways of fightning back

as for breakdowns, i can see them moving as many as they can to different apcs under the cover of smoke then maybe putting a skelebot or maybe some type of remote control unit in the diver seat and having it driving away from the convoy

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:well since it wasnt all apc i guess the line wasnt that long

I eagerly await your estimation of the numbers.

42

Tamaranis wrote:

Fyrpower wrote:If I was a Xiticix queen I would see this as a golden opportunity to feed my entire Hive for a long, long time

Is that like how when you see a pile of rocks you see a golden opportunity to feed your family for a long, long time?

Because Xiticix don't eat people.

No, they eat sludge.
Which oft-times used to be people.

Mech-Viper wrote:sorry dont see the large mechs letting the bugs rip apart without swatting them and , under heavy smoke.

The large mecha might try and stop the bugs, but that's what they'd be doing, trying to stop them. The bugs would keep trying and eventually succeed.

We know they did this. The force was mounted on vehicles. 25% of the force was lost. Ergo, 25% of the vehicles were lost.

Mech-Viper wrote:so you are saying they have food

Yes, I've never said otherwise. I never thought they would starve while in the Hivelands, it's afterwards in the year that they are out of supply that I'm concerned with. Specifically the timeframe after the first couple of weeks (this assumes a scenario where Holmes and his force actually make it out of the Hiveland). 300K soldiers, even sitting around, eat a lot. Scavenging and hunting is not going to be enough. Really, it isn't.

They'd have to move every week or more often to a new area (and being active to scavenge and hunt and move takes more food and water), because 300k people will sweep clean a huge radius of all available food in short order, and their combined unprocessed waste will risk contaminating the local ground water and and generating disease.

Mech-Viper wrote:personally i see them going in a bucket and once it full throwing it outside

Your bucket (or helmet, etc.) idea is better and more reasonable than mine.

(I was going off on something of a comically exagerated tangent on that point.)

Mech-Viper wrote:as for breakdowns, i can see them moving as many as they can to different apcs

At 40 soliders each, our 10,000 APCs are already pretty stuffed. I suppose they can have more, after all, what's the difference between 10,000 and 11-12,000? Not much, at this point.

Mech-Viper wrote:[...] maybe putting a skelebot or maybe some type of remote control unit in the diver seat and having it driving away from the convoy

If the APC is broken down, it isn't going to be driving anywhere.

Mech-Viper wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:well since it wasnt all apc i guess the line wasnt that long

I eagerly await your estimation of the numbers.

42

And you arrive at that number based on what calculation?

The math, please . . .

42 miles is much too short a length for the complete army column in motion.

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And no, this is not a Hitchhiker novel, and the mice aren't in charge of the CS.

Killer Cyborg wrote:What it says is "groups of 20 or more", and no matter how much higher than 20 you get, it's still "more than 20" and would officially elicit the same responce according to XI.

Yes, it does. Trouble is, it doesn't say how they fight, or if there aren't any other responses. Knowing that the Xiticix adapt their tactics, that they engage in hit and run attacks and do so in spite of this passage tells me that there are other responses.

After all, the passage here does not describe hit and run attacks…which other sections state the Xiticix do use.

Average walking pace is more like 5mph, not including rugged terrain.

Which is less than 10mph, their maximum speed.

I suppose, but in Spider Skull Walkers you could still swap out drivers without much problem. Possibly in other bots as well, depending on how things are set up. If there's a co-pilot, he might well be able to drive the thing while the pilot sleeps and vice versa.

Yes, but as you say, it would depend on the robot and the crew. It's also easier for the infantry to switch places between riding and walking if the vehicles stop for a couple of minutes.

Not that I've noticed.

Swarm until the target is destroyed is at odds with hit and run attacks, attacking in waves, fighting only when needed and so on.

Only once they've left Xiticix territory. Until then, the bugs keep attacking.

WB23 does not say this. It does say that they'll often stop following a group once it leaves…but it also says they're usually satisfied with the competing force moving away.

It doesn't, but it's still irrelevent.
Holmes and his crew would have been destroyed before it became an issue.[/quotye]

Assume they did. What would the Xiticix response be?

Why would they have more?

Because swarm tactics may be less effective against certain enemies? Because other tactics may also work with less cost? Because that's the way they fight?

There's nothing to indicate otherwise.

No, but nothing, in that section, to support the contention either. And other sections do show other responses are possible.

Which is easily and safely assumed from the descriptions in XI.

Only if you don't read the rest of the book…there are section which describe other tactics beyond the "swarm until destroyed" mentality.

True, but it's a staple. They use other tactics as needed, and they wouldn't need any other tactics in this situation.

That's the thing. You say they use other tactics as needed, but then say this is a situation where the swarm is the tactic they would have used simply because it's a group larger than 20. But, if that was the case, the swarm would be the only tactic they'd use. If they used the swarm for 400,000 men, they'd use it for 200 and for 1,000,000, regardless of how many warriors they had available.

You can't have it both ways….either they are capable of using other tactics when needed….such as they used when attacking Holmes…or they're not.

XI does say "groups of 20 or large"….but it is unreasonable to expect this to extend to infinity; it's simply a too literal reading of one section of the text. XI does say they use other tactics, it says they fight as needed, it says they view retreat or moving away as acceptable outcomes and it says they've been known to live with humans for months.

Tactics would come into play when facing superior numbers or fortified targets.

Them with a population of 500 million or so…when would they ever need other tactics?

Disagreed.

Why? If they're capable of using other tactics as they see fit, why is it impossible for them to use the described tactics against Holmes?

What if what had taken an hour? Killing Holmes and his men?

What if it had taken an hour….or a minute….to convince them Holmes wasn't a threat or challenge. What would they have done?

Explain.

They weren't seen by the hive as rivals…That was one of the aims of Tolkeen.

EJL

All of this ignores the consequence of the Xiticix attacking the food and water transport. The 5000 trucks needed just to haul enough water for three days. Did Holmes lose 25% of those vehicles or were the losses magically confined to less critical machines? Further support for the soldiers not obeying the non-lethal attacks only order. Lose the water trucks, you die. If you're going to die anyway, might as well go down fighting.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I actually had about the same though as Mech-Viper regarding the 2:1 ratio. The bugs might well not know how many troops are in each vehicle, assuming that everybody was inside (or on top of) sealed vehicles.
Although RainOfSteel's counterpoint is pretty good, I'd say that the bugs might indeed not count the troops inside of the vehicles.
XI stated that they send 4 bugs per robot or vehicle, not that they send 4 + the number of pilots & passengers.

Of course, that does bring up another problem. If everybody is inside vehicles, then the bugs would shoot at the vehicles themselves.
Which means that pretty soon, Holmes and his men would be out of vehicles and they'd have to walk.

true, but the would be shooting at the larger stuff first before the apc .

Samored II wrote:All of this ignores the consequence of the Xiticix attacking the food and water transport. The 5000 trucks needed just to haul enough water for three days. Did Holmes lose 25% of those vehicles or were the losses magically confined to less critical machines? Further support for the soldiers not obeying the non-lethal attacks only order. Lose the water trucks, you die. If you're going to die anyway, might as well go down fighting.

xiticix would attack the biggest targets first

lets not forget the platoon of Janissary under holmes command, but that too is optional

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:What it says is "groups of 20 or more", and no matter how much higher than 20 you get, it's still "more than 20" and would officially elicit the same responce according to XI.

Yes, it does. Trouble is, it doesn't say how they fight, or if there aren't any other responses. Knowing that the Xiticix adapt their tactics, that they engage in hit and run attacks and do so in spite of this passage tells me that there are other responses.

No it doesn't. "20 and over" is the full case. You can add discussions about other possibilities all you like, but that is pure speculation.

The Xiticix are adaptive in their tactics, but their response to "20 and over" isn't a tactic, it's a racial response mode.

In any event, the strategy that they will pursue in this circumstance is stated clearly. They will destroy the enemy. They can use whatever tactics they like, but they will destroy the enemy.

tenakafurey wrote:WB23 does not say this. It does say that they'll often stop following a group once it leaves

You still haven't provided a reference for that.

Especially since the following states exactly the opposite (that the Xiticix do indeed pursue recent invaders):

RainOfSteel Wed May 17, 2006 10:53 pm wrote:I refer you to:
(Bold face is my addition except for the first three words, as are the superscripts faked with () characters.)

WB23:XI p.19 wrote:A raiding swarm is sent out after an attack(1) with one of two simple missions: Retaliation(2) or defense of the hive at all costs. Whether that retaliation is justified or the aggressor is known does not matter. Their destructive rage(2) is directed at everything not Xiticix -- humans, D-Bees, cattle, innocent passers-by, ramshackle old huts, small villages, CS patrols, and any sentient being who catches their attention(3). The aliens do not distinguish between humanoids and will lash out at the nearest ones without regards for their innocence or guilt(3). It matters not that humans many have been responsible for instigating an attack (or threat), D-Bees, demons, dragons, and other life forms will pay the prince for invoking their ire. Likewise, quiet, peaceful human and/or D-Bee settlements will suddenly become convenient targets simply because they are there(3).

Raiding swarms pour out of the Hiveland and into the countryside to extract their revenge(2) and to reinforce their borders. Such frenzied raids rarely occur unless there has been some significant disturbance or threat within the boundaries of the Xiticix territory. Retaliatory(2) swarms have no interest in capturing food or taking prisoners. Their goal is to secure their territory, destroy all threats(2), and unleash pure death and destruction. They will rain TK bots down on people and buildings without mercy and with no target preference (other than those who return their aggression with vigor).

First, what constitutes a threat to a Xiticix is not what might or might not constitute a threat to a human.

All alien sentient life is regarded by the Xiticix as their enemies (WB23:XI p.9 col.2). They

(1) Apparently, the Xiticix do not simply ignore the fact that an attack has just occurred.(4) They immediately embark upon a quest to make sure that it doesn't happen again. They will most certainly trail whoever was responsible and will attempt to wipe them out unless it is crystal clear that the attempt will be a failure.

(2) Retaliation, revenge, destructive rage. It seems that the Xiticix feel all these base emotions and paranoid security-related motivations. Beings gripped in destructive rages of revenge and retaliation are not known for their clear thought processes and intelligent evaluations of enemies. Their instincts will rule their actions (WB23:XI p.8 col.2).

(3) Apparently, the Xiticix do kill without "need", at least as we would see it. However, it is fairly clear that when the Xiticix only "feel threatened" (remember, the attack is over and there is no threat at the moment), that they "need" to go out and kill everything on their enemy list or anything that could conceivably be a threat.

(4) The case establishing that the Xiticix would have regarded the army within their territory as a threat has been established based on the information in WB23:XI (p. 11 col.1). I have asserted, and still assert, that marching an army of 400k MD/MDC equipped soldiers and vehicles of war into the Hiveland would in and of itself constitute both a threat and a challenge. The army would be capable of attacking the central hive structures and doing severe damage at any time just due to their huge numbers and available firepower and the Xiticix would feel this in their chitinous exoskeletons every moment the army was within the Hiveland and probably after they departed, too (SAMAS can outrun the Xiticix and so can launch lightning raids that only massed swarms could stop), regardless of how innocent their behavior appeared to be(5). No amount of "pretending" by a force that size could utilize the "ignore us we're just small numbers here" tactics used by scouting squads and a few others.

(5) We have testimony from ex-service personnel indicating their extreme disbelief that an entire army of 400k individuals could all have successfully followed their no lethal attack orders for the entire 72 hour period. I find myself agreeing with this based on what I know of the military. Seeing comrades getting slain or carried off, even just one, would undoubtedly drive some trooper somewhere over the edge to the point where he/she would open fire to protect said comrade. Also given that a large portion of the army's makeup is of Evil alignment personnel, and even more of selfish personnel, and yet further attach the massive D-Bee horror propaganda that the CS unleashes on its citizens, frankly I find it totally unbelievable that numerous incidents of squads opening up to protect one of their comrades (Good alignment warriors protecting their comrades) didn't lead to tens of thousands of soldiers unloading with everything they had. Evil individuals, not caring about anything, and finding themselves about to be carried away would detonate multiple fusion blocks or open fire with their guns at point blank on a Xiticix thorax (like a x3 head-shot, probably). "They all followed Holmes' order and it all went perfectly." Baloney. You can't get 100k people to sing the Star Spangled Banner in sync, much less get the 20-30% (or more) of Evil alignments in your army to sacrifice themselves for anyone other than numero uno. Heck, you'd have mass desertions before going into the Hivelands just from the terror, and more desertions in the middle of the journey. Some of the deserters would ignore the no-fire/kill orders and would start killing Xiticix, and the swarm would not distinguish between deserter and loyalist. Some deserting soldiers would have been taken by the Xiticix swarming the area, but some would have gotten away. Some of those would have been captured by Tolkeen. Then a mass breakdown of discipline from the horror of the situation would follow.

Whatever emerged from the Hiveland would be a wreck, and it would be pursued by raiding swarms. The Xiticix literally wouldn't be able to stop themselves anymore than they could stop themselves from expanding.

tenakafurey wrote:…but it also says they're usually satisfied with the competing force moving away.

That is a specific case. The case of a community about to be engulfed by a Hiveland expansion. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Hiveland invaders in the "20 and over" case.

Again, they are separate cases.

Holmes' force falls into the "20 and over" case.

In the specific case of Hiveland invasion (i.e. Holmes' force), raiding swarms will be dispatched after the attack to exact revenge and retaliation with a destructive rage in the hearts (so to speak) of the Xiticix.

They will not leave invaders alone after they leave the Hiveland, as is noted above.

tenakafurey wrote:XI does say "groups of 20 or large"….but it is unreasonable to expect this to extend to infinity; it's simply a too literal reading of one section of the text. XI does say they use other tactics, it says they fight as needed, it says they view retreat or moving away as acceptable outcomes and it says they've been known to live with humans for months.

I still say that the "20 and over" is a response case, and not a tactic. Their objective under the response case is "destroy". They may use whatever tactics they like to accomplish this objective.

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Tactics would come into play when facing superior numbers or fortified targets.

Them with a population of 500 million or so…when would they ever need other tactics?

You are defeating your own argument, and in any event, the population of the Xiticix on Rifts Earth is not 500 million.

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Disagreed.

Why? If they're capable of using other tactics as they see fit, why is it impossible for them to use the described tactics against Holmes?

KC wasn't talking about the tactics. He was talking about case-by-case responses to known situations.

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:What if what had taken an hour? Killing Holmes and his men?

What if it had taken an hour….or a minute….to convince them Holmes wasn't a threat or challenge. What would they have done?

You haven't explained why an army of 400k MD/MDC equipped troops with massive firepower wouldn't be considered a threat.

Why The CS Army Is A Threat: They've got lots of powerful guns and can attack the central hive complex with missiles and flyers at any time (the Xiticix would move to stop the attacks with suicidal abandon, of course). They fall into the "20 and over" response case that cause the Xiticix to become agitated and will then "attack any outsider/invader/intruder they notice" (WB23:XI p. 17 col.2).

Why THE CS Army Isn't A Threat: . . . . [queue Jeopardy music] . . . . time's up, no answer. Never stopping, moving in a direction away from the Hive (but still being in the Hiveland), using only smoke, jabs, and pokes on actual Xiticix (that would only irritate/agitate the Xiticix even more), are all not answers that are even remotely acceptable as "Hi I'm not really being threatening".

The first case is obvious. The second case is not and actually leans in the direction of generating a threatening posture. If smoke really irritates the Xiticix, that's only going to make them angry. Jabbing and poking not being taking as threats? What?

This is why, to me, the second case does not fly (or run, walk, or even get out of bed other than to get tangled in the bed sheets and fall onto the floor while hitting its head on the nightstand).

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Explain.

They weren't seen by the hive as rivals…That was one of the aims of Tolkeen.

Of course they weren't seen as rivals. Humans are somewhere below dirt and wouldn't be accorded status as a rival Hive. They would, however, be regarded as an enemy and their firepower would make the Xiticix considered them to be a threat regardless of what they actually did.

The Xiticix are not pacifists. If an armed army is driving by, they do not say, "Hmmm, they're not actually launching MD attacks, he must not be a threat." They think, "Danger! Attack!" IMO, not even a foe obviously powerful enough to stop the Xiticix themselves would be a deterrent to an immediate attack. The only change would be that the queens and nannies and maybe some xits and sludge would be evacuated.

As for losing "too much" to Holmes and becoming weakened, I have already described the case where, using simple but smart and effective tactics, the Xiticix could roll up all of Holmes' force at vitually no cost to themselves. So, they really wouldn't be weakened and it really wouldn't be a big risk to the Hive. The benefits, a massive new source of sludge, and a lot of heavily armed enemies done away with.

Samored II wrote:All of this ignores the consequence of the Xiticix attacking the food and water transport.

I don't think the Xiticix would have gone after those vehicles as a first preference.

Mech-Viper wrote:true, but the would be shooting at the larger stuff first before the apc .

I do realize that there would be Abolishers, tanks, and similar bots and vehicles. But the army has to be carried, and that makes APCs take up the majority of the vehicular numbers. It is convenient and simplifying to talk about them exclusively.

But you are right, the Xiticix would have attacked, and destroyed, the other vehicles first.

Tamaranis wrote:Oh and regarding water... maybe it was rainy weather for three days.

Ah, humor. It's a good one, but it has been joked about before further up-topic.

Alejandro wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:

Samored II wrote:All of this ignores the consequence of the Xiticix attacking the food and water transport. The 5000 trucks needed just to haul enough water for three days. Did Holmes lose 25% of those vehicles or were the losses magically confined to less critical machines? Further support for the soldiers not obeying the non-lethal attacks only order. Lose the water trucks, you die. If you're going to die anyway, might as well go down fighting.

xiticix would attack the biggest targets first

So how come so many of the Robots made it through unscathed? From the accounts given in SoT, the only real casualties Holmes had were infantry. How'd the Spider Skull Walkers, Skull Smashers, and Enforcers make it through? By this logic you're using, the only thing left would've been APC's, water trucks, and chuck wagons.

Like I said before every vechile would look like it went thru hell.

darkmax wrote:Xiticix vehicle repair shop of course.

is that next to the Xiticix custom body shop in Duluth

RainOfSteel wrote:

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:What it says is "groups of 20 or more", and no matter how much higher than 20 you get, it's still "more than 20" and would officially elicit the same responce according to XI.

Yes, it does. Trouble is, it doesn't say how they fight, or if there aren't any other responses. Knowing that the Xiticix adapt their tactics, that they engage in hit and run attacks and do so in spite of this passage tells me that there are other responses.

No it doesn't. "20 and over" is the full case. You can add discussions about other possibilities all you like, but that is pure speculation.

The Xiticix are adaptive in their tactics, but their response to "20 and over" isn't a tactic, it's a racial response mode.

In any event, the strategy that they will pursue in this circumstance is stated clearly. They will destroy the enemy. They can use whatever tactics they like, but they will destroy the enemy.

tenakafurey wrote:WB23 does not say this. It does say that they'll often stop following a group once it leaves

You still haven't provided a reference for that.

Especially since the following states exactly the opposite (that the Xiticix do indeed pursue recent invaders):

RainOfSteel Wed May 17, 2006 10:53 pm wrote:I refer you to:
(Bold face is my addition except for the first three words, as are the superscripts faked with () characters.)

WB23:XI p.19 wrote:A raiding swarm is sent out after an attack(1) with one of two simple missions: Retaliation(2) or defense of the hive at all costs. Whether that retaliation is justified or the aggressor is known does not matter. Their destructive rage(2) is directed at everything not Xiticix -- humans, D-Bees, cattle, innocent passers-by, ramshackle old huts, small villages, CS patrols, and any sentient being who catches their attention(3). The aliens do not distinguish between humanoids and will lash out at the nearest ones without regards for their innocence or guilt(3). It matters not that humans many have been responsible for instigating an attack (or threat), D-Bees, demons, dragons, and other life forms will pay the prince for invoking their ire. Likewise, quiet, peaceful human and/or D-Bee settlements will suddenly become convenient targets simply because they are there(3).

Raiding swarms pour out of the Hiveland and into the countryside to extract their revenge(2) and to reinforce their borders. Such frenzied raids rarely occur unless there has been some significant disturbance or threat within the boundaries of the Xiticix territory. Retaliatory(2) swarms have no interest in capturing food or taking prisoners. Their goal is to secure their territory, destroy all threats(2), and unleash pure death and destruction. They will rain TK bots down on people and buildings without mercy and with no target preference (other than those who return their aggression with vigor).

First, what constitutes a threat to a Xiticix is not what might or might not constitute a threat to a human.

All alien sentient life is regarded by the Xiticix as their enemies (WB23:XI p.9 col.2). They

(1) Apparently, the Xiticix do not simply ignore the fact that an attack has just occurred.(4) They immediately embark upon a quest to make sure that it doesn't happen again. They will most certainly trail whoever was responsible and will attempt to wipe them out unless it is crystal clear that the attempt will be a failure.

(2) Retaliation, revenge, destructive rage. It seems that the Xiticix feel all these base emotions and paranoid security-related motivations. Beings gripped in destructive rages of revenge and retaliation are not known for their clear thought processes and intelligent evaluations of enemies. Their instincts will rule their actions (WB23:XI p.8 col.2).

(3) Apparently, the Xiticix do kill without "need", at least as we would see it. However, it is fairly clear that when the Xiticix only "feel threatened" (remember, the attack is over and there is no threat at the moment), that they "need" to go out and kill everything on their enemy list or anything that could conceivably be a threat.

(4) The case establishing that the Xiticix would have regarded the army within their territory as a threat has been established based on the information in WB23:XI (p. 11 col.1). I have asserted, and still assert, that marching an army of 400k MD/MDC equipped soldiers and vehicles of war into the Hiveland would in and of itself constitute both a threat and a challenge. The army would be capable of attacking the central hive structures and doing severe damage at any time just due to their huge numbers and available firepower and the Xiticix would feel this in their chitinous exoskeletons every moment the army was within the Hiveland and probably after they departed, too (SAMAS can outrun the Xiticix and so can launch lightning raids that only massed swarms could stop), regardless of how innocent their behavior appeared to be(5). No amount of "pretending" by a force that size could utilize the "ignore us we're just small numbers here" tactics used by scouting squads and a few others.

(5) We have testimony from ex-service personnel indicating their extreme disbelief that an entire army of 400k individuals could all have successfully followed their no lethal attack orders for the entire 72 hour period. I find myself agreeing with this based on what I know of the military. Seeing comrades getting slain or carried off, even just one, would undoubtedly drive some trooper somewhere over the edge to the point where he/she would open fire to protect said comrade. Also given that a large portion of the army's makeup is of Evil alignment personnel, and even more of selfish personnel, and yet further attach the massive D-Bee horror propaganda that the CS unleashes on its citizens, frankly I find it totally unbelievable that numerous incidents of squads opening up to protect one of their comrades (Good alignment warriors protecting their comrades) didn't lead to tens of thousands of soldiers unloading with everything they had. Evil individuals, not caring about anything, and finding themselves about to be carried away would detonate multiple fusion blocks or open fire with their guns at point blank on a Xiticix thorax (like a x3 head-shot, probably). "They all followed Holmes' order and it all went perfectly." Baloney. You can't get 100k people to sing the Star Spangled Banner in sync, much less get the 20-30% (or more) of Evil alignments in your army to sacrifice themselves for anyone other than numero uno. Heck, you'd have mass desertions before going into the Hivelands just from the terror, and more desertions in the middle of the journey. Some of the deserters would ignore the no-fire/kill orders and would start killing Xiticix, and the swarm would not distinguish between deserter and loyalist. Some deserting soldiers would have been taken by the Xiticix swarming the area, but some would have gotten away. Some of those would have been captured by Tolkeen. Then a mass breakdown of discipline from the horror of the situation would follow.

Whatever emerged from the Hiveland would be a wreck, and it would be pursued by raiding swarms. The Xiticix literally wouldn't be able to stop themselves anymore than they could stop themselves from expanding.

tenakafurey wrote:…but it also says they're usually satisfied with the competing force moving away.

That is a specific case. The case of a community about to be engulfed by a Hiveland expansion. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Hiveland invaders in the "20 and over" case.

Again, they are separate cases.

Holmes' force falls into the "20 and over" case.

In the specific case of Hiveland invasion (i.e. Holmes' force), raiding swarms will be dispatched after the attack to exact revenge and retaliation with a destructive rage in the hearts (so to speak) of the Xiticix.

They will not leave invaders alone after they leave the Hiveland, as is noted above.

tenakafurey wrote:XI does say "groups of 20 or large"….but it is unreasonable to expect this to extend to infinity; it's simply a too literal reading of one section of the text. XI does say they use other tactics, it says they fight as needed, it says they view retreat or moving away as acceptable outcomes and it says they've been known to live with humans for months.

I still say that the "20 and over" is a response case, and not a tactic. Their objective under the response case is "destroy". They may use whatever tactics they like to accomplish this objective.

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Tactics would come into play when facing superior numbers or fortified targets.

Them with a population of 500 million or so…when would they ever need other tactics?

You are defeating your own argument, and in any event, the population of the Xiticix on Rifts Earth is not 500 million.

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Disagreed.

Why? If they're capable of using other tactics as they see fit, why is it impossible for them to use the described tactics against Holmes?

KC wasn't talking about the tactics. He was talking about case-by-case responses to known situations.

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:What if what had taken an hour? Killing Holmes and his men?

What if it had taken an hour….or a minute….to convince them Holmes wasn't a threat or challenge. What would they have done?

You haven't explained why an army of 400k MD/MDC equipped troops with massive firepower wouldn't be considered a threat.

Why The CS Army Is A Threat: They've got lots of powerful guns and can attack the central hive complex with missiles and flyers at any time (the Xiticix would move to stop the attacks with suicidal abandon, of course). They fall into the "20 and over" response case that cause the Xiticix to become agitated and will then "attack any outsider/invader/intruder they notice" (WB23:XI p. 17 col.2).

Why THE CS Army Isn't A Threat: . . . . [queue Jeopardy music] . . . . time's up, no answer. Never stopping, moving in a direction away from the Hive (but still being in the Hiveland), using only smoke, jabs, and pokes on actual Xiticix (that would only irritate/agitate the Xiticix even more), are all not answers that are even remotely acceptable as "Hi I'm not really being threatening".

The first case is obvious. The second case is not and actually leans in the direction of generating a threatening posture. If smoke really irritates the Xiticix, that's only going to make them angry. Jabbing and poking not being taking as threats? What?

This is why, to me, the second case does not fly (or run, walk, or even get out of bed other than to get tangled in the bed sheets and fall onto the floor while hitting its head on the nightstand).

tenakafurey wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Explain.

They weren't seen by the hive as rivals…That was one of the aims of Tolkeen.

Of course they weren't seen as rivals. Humans are somewhere below dirt and wouldn't be accorded status as a rival Hive. They would, however, be regarded as an enemy and their firepower would make the Xiticix considered them to be a threat regardless of what they actually did.

The Xiticix are not pacifists. If an armed army is driving by, they do not say, "Hmmm, they're not actually launching MD attacks, he must not be a threat." They think, "Danger! Attack!" IMO, not even a foe obviously powerful enough to stop the Xiticix themselves would be a deterrent to an immediate attack. The only change would be that the queens and nannies and maybe some xits and sludge would be evacuated.

As for losing "too much" to Holmes and becoming weakened, I have already described the case where, using simple but smart and effective tactics, the Xiticix could roll up all of Holmes' force at vitually no cost to themselves. So, they really wouldn't be weakened and it really wouldn't be a big risk to the Hive. The benefits, a massive new source of sludge, and a lot of heavily armed enemies done away with.

Thank you for trying to bring logic into the conversation.
Doubt it will work.
I'm ex-army myself, special forces, and while our rules of engagement, et cetera were a bit different from the norm. I can tell you if some dipstick officer tried to tell us nae to shoot back when we're being killed, he'd eat the first bullet, then the enemy would follow. He'd be reported as a casualty of enemy fire, and I know my whole team would back me on that.
No army will last if you have a bunch of guys who just allow a quarter of the force to be wiped out. There's no esprit de corpe there. Unless they're clone troopers, which is the only way I can fathom the raw numbers of presonnel in the CS army entire for the siege, let alone Holme's personal command. Might explain their blind obedience to stupid orders.
Doesn't explain how they survived about a year on their own resources, however...

darkmax wrote:Xiticix vehicle repair shop of course.

What is the Black Market cost on one of those?

How much MDC can one add to a vehicle using Xit-concrete? Hmm, it would probably reduce mobility.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Thank you for trying to bring logic into the conversation.
Doubt it will work.

You know, I can always hope.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Thank you for trying to bring logic into the conversation.
Doubt it will work.

You know, I can always hope.

Hope is the first step on the road of disappointment.

darkmax wrote:Hope is not enough! We need Action! Are you ready for Action? Well you better be! Next Stop Bug country!

sure why not, sounds like a blast

Vrykolas2k wrote:Doesn't explain how they survived about a year on their own resources, however...

where do you get a year ??

Mech-Viper wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Doesn't explain how they survived about a year on their own resources, however...

where do you get a year ??

Best guess for the Sorcerer's Revenge is PA 108. Tolkeen is sacked in PA 109. IOW, one year. (Yes, it could have been 4-11 months, but since two weeks or less would bring starvation to Holmes' army, that is still far too long.)

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Doesn't explain how they survived about a year on their own resources, however...

where do you get a year ??

Best guess for the Sorcerer's Revenge is PA 108. Tolkeen is sacked in PA 109. IOW, one year. (Yes, it could have been 4-11 months, but since two weeks or less would bring starvation to Holmes' army, that is still far too long.)

late 108 was the time of Sorcerer's Revenge and holmes know the coalition would strike before the summer solstice (so 7-8 months be my best guess).

RainOfSteel wrote:No it doesn't. "20 and over" is the full case. You can add discussions about other possibilities all you like, but that is pure speculation.

Given that we "see" them acting in a different manner when faced with 400,000 troops, I'd call it a bit more than speculation. As it is, we know they adapt their tactics….WB23 tells us this…so it is the case that swarming is not the one and only tactic they use…irrespective of what page 10 says or implies. That it deals with only small groups does not imply they are the only cases to be considered.

This means Holmes trek isn't impossible…all you can really argue about is if the Xiticix response should be considered typical or atypical. And as SoT is the only book that specifically deals with the Xiticix response to 400,000 troops, there is nothing to say it's atypical.

In the specific case of Hiveland invasion (i.e. Holmes' force), raiding swarms will be dispatched after the attack to exact revenge and retaliation with a destructive rage in the hearts (so to speak) of the Xiticix.

Retaliation and revenge for what?

I still say that the "20 and over" is a response case, and not a tactic.

Which is essentially conceding that your argument is based on your interpretation of how the Xiticix should act.

SoT shows them acting another way, a way that's not impossible, a way that isn't contradicted by WB23 but which does fall into the category of "other tactics" mentioned in that book.

You are defeating your own argument, and in any event, the population of the Xiticix on Rifts Earth is not 500 million.

No…but that is the maximum size of a Hive. The point is, if their primary response is indeed to swarm, and they follow no other tactics unless outnumbered then why would they not swarm Holmes since every source seems to say they would outnumber him?

Which means either the Xiticix numbers have been grossly exaggerated – in which case the Xiticix tactics could be a result of the need to conserve troops – or they haven't, in which case Holmes should have been swarmed under if your "Swarm at all costs" theory is appropriate.

As it is, we know what the Xiticix response actually was. The question is, why is it impossible for them to act that way?

KC wasn't talking about the tactics. He was talking about case-by-case responses to known situations.

And walking into a Hiveland with 400,000 men and not attacking, challenging or provoking them was an entirely unknown situation….so why is it so surprising that the Xiticix response was different as well?

You haven't explained why an army of 400k MD/MDC equipped troops with massive firepower wouldn't be considered a threat.

Because they didn't attack. Because they weren't moving to attack the Hive. Because they didn't stop to claim territory. Because they were moving away.

EJL

Vrykolas2k wrote:[Thank you for trying to bring logic into the conversation.
Doubt it will work.

Where's the fun in that?

I'm ex-army myself, special forces, and while our rules of engagement, et cetera were a bit different from the norm. I can tell you if some dipstick officer tried to tell us nae to shoot back when we're being killed, he'd eat the first bullet, then the enemy would follow. He'd be reported as a casualty of enemy fire, and I know my whole team would back me on that.

And in most situations, you'd be correct.

What if you knew, for a fact, opening fire would make things worse? That the Xiticix wouldattack anyone or any group firing on them? That the officer in charge actually knew what he was doing? Would you fire back if you saw the first 10 or 20 groups to do so get swarmed under and killed, while those who refrained from helping survived? Would you hold to your orders if it was the group a quarter mile away getting mauled? If you knew that opening fire would bring a swarm on top of your head, would you stop others helping?

Barring panic...would you still open fire?

Doesn't explain how they survived about a year on their own resources, however...

A year? A few months. Still abd, but a little better.

And it would depend on what they managed to snag, what they managed to bring with them, and what they managed to scavenge/steal from the various towns, villages and farms in the area.

EJL

tenakafurey wrote:As it is, we know they adapt their tactics….WB23 tells us this…so it is the case that swarming is not the one and only tactic they use

You are still combining responses and tactics.

The Xiticix do adopt the best battle tactics of any given combat situation.

They do not modify their racially programmed responses to general situations, and nothing in WB23:XI says otherwise. SoT 5 does imply otherwise, I fully admit. I also admit that I despise unnecessary retcons (and yes, that is "what I personally believe to be unnecessary").

Swarming an enemy is a tactic, it's true.

Attacking an enemy in the "20 and over" case is not a tactic, is a racially programmed response with a single objective, to destroy the enemy. Any number of tactics might be used, although the typical one is the 2/4-8 swarm tactic. Destroying the enemy, however, is the only option they have.

If the Xiticix can really do anything they want in response to any situation, then they wouldn't be instinct-based insect-like creatures. They'd be humans in bug suits. One of things that makes the Xiticix what they are is their instinctive nature and their automatic responses to certain situations. Yes, it does make them somewhat predictable. Not entirely, though, as they may use any battle tactic they chose in order to resolve a combat that their instinct compels them to engage in, such as the appearance of a group of enemies in the Hiveland in the "20 and over" case.

tenakafurey wrote:…irrespective of what page 10 says or implies. That it deals with only small groups does not imply they are the only cases to be considered.

The cases on WB23 p.10-11 do not imply that any other case need be considered.

You are inventing other cases for the sole reason that other cases aren't listed. (So is SoT 5. I have specifically stated that this is "as far as I am concerned", so please, no comebacks about me attempting to assert that SoT 5 isn't actual canon.)

The list does not even appear to need extra cases. It fits perfectly with the Xiticix' aggressive xenophobia. This xenophobia is hardwired into their beings. They just can't look at hundreds of thousands of enemies inside their Hiveland and hold back from attacking (WB23:XI p.17 col.1-2). When just one Xiticix becomes agitated, then the others do, as well. When they are in an agitated states, "[...] attacking any outsider/invader/intruder they happen to notice." This means includes those who aren't doing anything but moving slowly in a big line.

400k MD/MDC troopers proceeding through the Hiveland is going to cause that agitation. Why? Because they possess firepower than can hurt the hive and any Xiticix flying through the area.

We know the Xiticix were threatened because the Xiticix did attack and the CS lost 25% of its force.

We have already gone over numerous cases of just how likely it would be for a significant number of CS troopers to open up with weapons and explosives and their vehicular weaponry in response to the Xiticix's, so the canon reality that Holmes' force did this just flies in the face of what I am willing to believe.

Again, the Xiticix were threatened (see above and many past posts), and because of this they would not leave off the situation. The raiding swarm would ensue as soon as the CS army was out of the Hiveland (fully cited and quoted in prior posts).

tenakafurey wrote:This means Holmes trek isn't impossible…

It depends on what sort of magic pill you are willing to swallow.

GM: "An ordinary mortal human boy with +0 to Strike carrying an ordinary toy water gun loaded with ordinary water shoots you. The impact of the water stream has killed you!"

Player: "I have 50 MDC body armor on, and my dodge is +20!"

GM: "It's my game, what I say goes."

Player: <walks out on the game, with total and full justification />

It's easy to walk out on a bad game, but it is not so easy to walk out on Rifts.

tenakafurey wrote:all you can really argue about is if the Xiticix response should be considered typical or atypical.

There it is again, the combining of responses and tactics.

They aren't the same thing as far as the Xiticix are concerned.

tenakafurey wrote:And as SoT is the only book that specifically deals with the Xiticix response to 400,000 troops, there is nothing to say it's atypical.

Other than the fact that it utterly contradicts the information, the information I have fully cited and quoted (which you have failed to address), that is found in WB23:XI? (I won't re-cite all of it again. This all makes it appear to me that you have chosen to ignore sections of the WB23:XI. That is fine, I ignore sections of many Rifts books myself. It would be helpful if you let me know specifically what you have chosen to ignore so that I can better understand where your viewpoint originates or if you labeled it "in my Rifts universe" or if you believe that SoT 5 fully supersedes WB23:XI and that the information found there was wrong.)

tenakafurey wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:In the specific case of Hiveland invasion (i.e. Holmes' force), raiding swarms will be dispatched after the attack to exact revenge and retaliation with a destructive rage in the hearts (so to speak) of the Xiticix.

Retaliation and revenge for what?

I listed it in many previous posts. I quoted WB23:XI twice in extensive detail.

I will go over it again.

The CS army was in the Hiveland and it was a force of 400 MD/MDC equipped soldiers that represented a clear and present danger and was an unacceptable threat to the Hive and as is clearly spelled out on WB23:XI p.12 and p.17 the Xiticix would attack.

That's it. Those are the main reasons. There were others, too. I went over them, but it appears you did not address them or any of the primary reasons other than to say "Retaliation and revenge for what?"?

tenakafurey wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:I still say that the "20 and over" is a response case, and not a tactic.

Which is essentially conceding that your argument is based on your interpretation of how the Xiticix should act.

It is what is written in the book.

That is the point of all this discussion. Essentially it's a statement of dissatisfaction over the differences implied between WB23:XI and SoT 5.

I never tried to assert that SoT 5 and the Holmes Maneuver weren't canon.

I have asserted that it completely snaps the suspenders of disbelief back in my face like a powerful rubber-band slingshot launch gone bad, and I have been stating the reasons for why this occurs to me.

tenakafurey wrote:SoT shows them acting another way, a way that's not impossible, a way that isn't contradicted by WB23 but which does fall into the category of "other tactics" mentioned in that book.

You are correct. The SoT 5 behavior that the Xiticix are noted as displaying is not "impossible". KS is the author of the milieu and what he says goes and what I say is only my own opinion on the subject. The retcon is as official as it is going to get, being that it is in print.

tenakafurey wrote:The point is, if their primary response is indeed to swarm,

They have a variety of responses, including ignoring even those they consider their enemies, if they are present in sufficiently small numbers and don't engage in other offensive behavior (offensive to the Xiticix).

But swarming is a battle tactic applied when a given response and objective have been determined.

When a response of, "Oh, that group too small to bother with," is generated within the Xiticix mind, they most certainly do not swarm. They engage in no tactics at all and go about their business . . . unless the group alters its behavior.

tenakafurey wrote:and they follow no other tactics unless outnumbered

WB23:XI p.17 says, "They (instinctively) seem to select the best strategy or tactic for a given situation and act swiftly." This is clearly in regards to the list above, "[...] tactics such as coordinated attacks, feints, ambushes, pincer tactics, and large troop operations."

I would like to point out that this is also directly below the part about "[...] attacking any outsider/invader/intruder they happen to notice."

I assure you, since they were attacking Holmes' force, they had noticed them, and were following this directive.

Since WB23:XI p.11 states that they attack any group of "20 or more", and we also know that they did attack the CS army, because the CS army lost 25% of their force, the question then really becomes why would the Xiticix attack (which they did do), but not destroy the enemy (as WB23:XI p.11 states they will do)? Especially when it would have been exceeding easy for the Xiticix to have utterly annihilated the CS army with very little in the way of losses for them?

IMO, there is no reconciling this. It is the essential definition of irreconcilable differences.

SoT 5 can state whatever it wants about what happened, but that doesn't change the blistering rubber band mark left behind across my face. (And it is but one such mark left by SoT as a whole. Heh, is anyone up for a new round of the SB1 Skelebot capability description vs. what actually happened in SoT?)

tenakafurey wrote:then why would they not swarm Holmes since every source seems to say they would outnumber him?

You have hit the nail upon the head. A Xiticix swarm should have descended upon one end of the column and ripped it to shreds and then rolled up the whole column.

Why didn't it happen that way? It wasn't written that way. "It wasn't part of the script."

tenakafurey wrote:Which means either the Xiticix numbers have been grossly exaggerated – in which case the Xiticix tactics could be a result of the need to conserve troops – or they haven't, in which case Holmes should have been swarmed under if your "Swarm at all costs" theory is appropriate.

It appears to me that your argument is, "Because the story had a screwy element in it (the fact that the Xiticix didn't full-on swarm Holmes' forces), that the Xiticix numbers have been grossly exaggerated."

I approach it from another direction, "The story had a screwy element in it." (Well, it had several such screwy elements in it.)

tenakafurey wrote:As it is, we know what the Xiticix response actually was. The question is, why is it impossible for them to act that way?

No. As I have stated, their response as written in SoT 5 is not impossible, just not in keeping with WB23:XI's overall picture of the Xiticix.

And just not believable to me personally.

tenakafurey wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:KC wasn't talking about the tactics. He was talking about case-by-case responses to known situations.

And walking into a Hiveland with 400,000 men and not attacking, challenging or provoking them was an entirely unknown situation . . .

The CS army was in the Hiveland and it was a force of 400 MD/MDC equipped soldiers that represented a clear and present danger and was an unacceptable threat to the Hive and as is clearly spelled out on WB23:XI p.12 and p.17 the Xiticix would attack.

It appears to be a fully described and covered situation so far as I can determine.

tenakafurey wrote:so why is it so surprising that the Xiticix response was different as well?

It is because the Xiticix were challenged and provoked.

I am not sure why you believe that 400K MD/MDC soldiers weren't a challenging provocation from their mere presence within the Hiveland and why the Xiticix would not become agitated as it is stated will happen automatically and why they don't engage in "[...] attacking any outsider/invader/intruder they happen to notice." Of which Holmes' force definitely qualified in every respect.

I am, of course, aware of SoT 5's explanation. IMO, the explanation is a description of acts that would only anger the Xiticix more than they already were (angry enough to attack and kill 25% of the force, but strangely no more . . . what?). It simply doesn't hold water AFAIC.

tenakafurey wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:You haven't explained why an army of 400k MD/MDC equipped troops with massive firepower wouldn't be considered a threat.

Because they didn't attack. Because they weren't moving to attack the Hive. Because they didn't stop to claim territory. Because they were moving away.

And I have provided my references and explanations for why I believe that those activities would not matter to the Xiticix in any way other than to make them more angry (per the available descriptions in WB23:XI).

Tamaranis wrote:
I may be missing something here, but why, exactly, can't several days of rainy weather have provided enough water for several days?

I apologize for my overly flippant response.

If you are referring to the CS force after its canon and unhindered departure from the Duluth Hiveland, then the CS force might sit tight and work up some solution to collect and distribute the rain water (stringing up lots of tarps, maybe). I hope each trooper has a water filter. I'll have to do some research into what can be gathered this way to see how feasible it is.

But as soon as the rain stops, they're going to need a lake, and they won't be able to stay there because they certainly won't have any way of keeping their waste from potentially contaminating the local groundwater.

You do realize how much waste even one day of 300k human habitation would cause, right? That's a bunch of latrines to dig every single day.

72 hours through the Hivelands? It's a good thing the Xiticix won't mind the trail of flies through their land.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nxla666 wrote:Also it said that 180-250,000 Xits attacked Holmes, never said anything more than that.

Which contradicts the numbers in XI.

Unfortunately Nxla666's cite of SoT 5 isn't valid and so doesn't contradict anything.

I take something straight from the book and it isnt valid.

Is quoting the books is only valid if its anti-CS, RoS?

RainOfSteel wrote:Attacking an enemy in the "20 and over" case is not a tactic, is a racially programmed response with a single objective, to destroy the enemy. Any number of tactics might be used, although the typical one is the 2/4-8 swarm tactic. Destroying the enemy, however, is the only option they have.

No...what I'm saying is that at 400,000 men, the tactics they used were not the "swarm them now" seen in "large groups of 20 or more" but more akin to hit and run, sporadic assaults that allowed Holmes group to survive long enough to convince the Xiticix that they weren't a threat and thus could be left alone.

If the Xiticix can really do anything they want in response to any situation, then they wouldn't be instinct-based insect-like creatures.

And they're not...a least not fully. XI describes them as a mixture of instinct and intelligence.

The cases on WB23 p.10-11 do not imply that any other case need be considered.

No...the fact that we see a different response in SoT5 does. And the fact that we're given a list of typical Xiticix tactics in WB23, a list that contradicts the simple "swarm till they die" also does.

400k MD/MDC troopers proceeding through the Hiveland is going to cause that agitation. Why? Because they possess firepower than can hurt the hive and any Xiticix flying through the area.

Which is an assumption, pure and simple. They’ll attack, yes…but that doesn’t necessarily get them “riled up”.

We know the Xiticix were threatened because the Xiticix did attack and the CS lost 25% of its force.

Until the Xiticix appear to have been convinced they were not a threat.

Again, the Xiticix were threatened (see above and many past posts), and because of this they would not leave off the situation. The raiding swarm would ensue as soon as the CS army was out of the Hiveland (fully cited and quoted in prior posts).

You mean, the raiding swarm that appears in response to an attack on the hive itself? Something Holmes didn't do?

Other than the fact that it utterly contradicts the information, the information I have fully cited and quoted (which you have failed to address), that is found in WB23:XI? (I won't re-cite all of it again. This all makes it appear to me that you have chosen to ignore sections of the WB23:XI. That is fine, I ignore sections of many Rifts books myself. It would be helpful if you let me know specifically what you have chosen to ignore so that I can better understand where your viewpoint originates or if you labeled it "in my Rifts universe" or if you believe that SoT 5 fully supersedes WB23:XI and that the information found there was wrong.)

I tend to ignore....nothing. The reason I didn't address it earlier is because I don't keep my Rifts books at work....and this thread is so busy I keep forgetting which posts I need to respond to.

In the specific case of Hiveland invasion (i.e. Holmes' force), raiding swarms will be dispatched after the attack to exact revenge and retaliation with a destructive rage in the hearts (so to speak) of the Xiticix.

For example, in this case, the text does not link raiding swarms to an invasion of the hivelands, but to an attack on the hive itself. As Holmes didn't do that, such swarms wouldn't be unleashed.

The CS army was in the Hiveland

Yes.

and it was a force of 400 MD/MDC equipped soldiers that represented a clear and present danger and was an unacceptable threat to the Hive and as is clearly spelled out on WB23:XI p.12 and p.17 the Xiticix would attack.

Page 12 says they'll attack group over 20, page 17 states that riled Xiticix tend to attack anyone they see.

Assuming no special response for groups of 400,000 we'd say they should attack. They did.

However...did they get riled? They didn't attack everyone in sight, but engaged in deliberate attacks. Nor did they use their typical swarm tactics. So their response is not fully in line with the information given on page 10. Indeed, assuming that the only difference between groups of 8-20 and over 20 are the numbers summoned, we can state that the Xiticix response to Holmes and their resposne to groups of 20+ shared only the fact that they attacked.

However, such is in line with p17s assertions that they do make use of other tactics....tactics whihc p10 says they shouldn't use.

That's it. Those are the main reasons. There were others, too. I went over them, but it appears you did not address them or any of the primary reasons other than to say "Retaliation and revenge for what?"?

Yep. You posted a lot of info on raiding swarms, but didn't address why they would be unleashed when Holmes didn't attack the Hive.

So...retaliation and revenge for what?

That is the point of all this discussion. Essentially it's a statement of dissatisfaction over the differences implied between WB23:XI and SoT 5.

I'm really not seeing any.

But swarming is a battle tactic applied when a given response and objective have been determined.

And it's one you are assuming is essentially universal.

Either they swarm all the time....in which case the "other tactics" mentioned on p17 is wrong, or they don’t...which merely means they have a different response to a group of 400,000 people than to 20. Maybe it's something as simple as not wanting to lose a whole lot of warrior in one battle, thus making them weak....thus, since he wasn't attacking the hive, hit and run attacks to drive Holmes away rather than destroy him outright.

Of course, there's also the possibility that the Xiticix were in some way influenced by Lazlos war on them.

When a response of, "Oh, that group too small to bother with," is generated within the Xiticix mind, they most certainly do not swarm.

But they will attack if the group does something they perceive as threatening or challenging, regardless of size.

The question then becomes...when you say it’s too small to bother with, aren’t you saying they’re not fighting something they don’t see as a threat?

So, what would they do if convinced Holmes army wasn’t a threat? Would you attack someone you didn't see as a threat or who wans't challenging you or provoking you?

WB23:XI p.17 says, "They (instinctively) seem to select the best strategy or tactic for a given situation and act swiftly." This is clearly in regards to the list above, "[...] tactics such as coordinated attacks, feints, ambushes, pincer tactics, and large troop operations."

And which means that swarm tactics are not universally applied, despite the implication on p10 which pits them against groups at 2-1 odds at least.

And you cannot have it both ways. If you want to apply the info on p.10 as a universal constant...namely, the Xiticix will swarm groups of 20+...then you are saying that the Xiticix universally use swarm tactics and swarm tactics only. This contradicts p.17. if the Xiticix use tactics other than swarming, even some of the time, then the universal response to such groups depicted on p.10 - they're swarmed by at least twice their number - simply doesn't hold true.

And you cannot say p.10 depicts a universal response....we know from p.17 and SoT5 that that is not the case. So, SoT5 takes it reaction from p17 rather than p10.

I would like to point out that this is also directly below the part about "[...] attacking any outsider/invader/intruder they happen to notice."

Which is stated to happen when they’re riled. At which point the question is…was Holmes mere presence enough to rile them? Their response suggests it wasn’t.

And yes....to my mind, being riled up is different from merely attacking. It implies less control and more rage, something more akin to a berserker than a soldier.

IMO, there is no reconciling this. It is the essential definition of irreconcilable differences.

Whereas I see it differently. They did attack Holmes, yes…but the Xiticix don’t wage war or kill unless they see a need to…usually in response to a threat or challenge. If convinced Holmes wasn’t a threat, there would be no need to waste warriors in dispatching him. There would be no need to remove a threat that didn’t exist.

You have hit the nail upon the head. A Xiticix swarm should have descended upon one end of the column and ripped it to shreds and then rolled up the whole column.

Which seems to be taking a very literal approach to page 10. Page 10 says all groups larger than 20 will be swarmed and destroyed, but page 17 says otherwise. Hit and run attacks do not form part of a swarm. Neither do wave assaults, feints, etc.

What’s the difference? As I see it, p10 describe small unit actions, p 17 describes large unit operations. Small unit actions don’t need much more than swarming to succeed. Large unit actions do.

It appears to me that your argument is, "Because the story had a screwy element in it (the fact that the Xiticix didn't full-on swarm Holmes' forces), that the Xiticix numbers have been grossly exaggerated."

No…it’s “This story seems to have a screwy element in it…can we reconcile this with what we know"?

The CS army was in the Hiveland and it was a force of 400 MD/MDC equipped soldiers that represented a clear and present danger and was an unacceptable threat to the Hive and as is clearly spelled out on WB23:XI p.12 and p.17 the Xiticix would attack.

And they attacked in response to a perceived threat. And left when they thought that threat no longer existed. If the threat didn’t exist…why is there a need to destroy the army?

It is because the Xiticix were challenged and provoked.

Holmes went out of his way not to do so.

I am not sure why you believe that 400K MD/MDC soldiers weren't a challenging provocation from their mere presence within the Hiveland and why the Xiticix would not become agitated as it is stated will happen automatically and why they don't engage in "[...] attacking any outsider/invader/intruder they happen to notice." Of which Holmes' force definitely qualified in every respect.

Because:

1: They were seen as a threat and, as such, attacked
2: The Xiticix don’t appear to have been riled up, so they wouldn’t be "…attacking any outsider/invader/intruder they happen to notice."
3: Holmes did nothing to challenge or threaten them

EJL

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:

Mech-Viper wrote:well since it wasnt all apc i guess the line wasnt that long

I eagerly await your estimation of the numbers.

42

And you arrive at that number based on what calculation?

The math, please . . .

42 miles is much too short a length for the complete army column in motion.

----------------------------------------------------

And no, this is not a Hitchhiker novel, and the mice aren't in charge of the CS.

A long-running, "inside" Joke.

42 is said to be the Answer To Everything.

I think the time frame is way off

in 24 hours they would be at the two lakes north of little falls and likely most of the xiticix have broken off the attack

the entire tolkeen pushing them in hiveland and then fleeing is bs they would been attacked more because they were moving faster then holmes who just had everybody slow down to under 10 mph and start defensive plans, so hidden under smoke and unable to know the exact numbers, some of the xiticix shot into the smoke and other charge into it and some end up being crushed under coalition armor. Meanwhile the Surviving tolkeen flyers report that they lossed numbers to the xiticix , so holmes as off that moment is dead or will die soon as will his troops.

Now the Senior NCO's and officers under holmes, their job is the carry out the orders(and who knows maybe some of his NCOs were with him at that outpost years back who bugged out on him, the rest of his NCOs and officers would up to the in controlling enlisted and junior officers, so that whole" i would shot holmes in the head" crap, you would find yourself dead quickly or worse alive and nude outside an apc and at the mercy of the xiticix. Yes i think they are that loyal to him , and for the enlisted most of them would be still awe stuck by serving under the living legend General Jericho Holmes

Food and Water , Holmes cares about his troops and getting caught with his pants doesnt seem to be holmes thing maybe the other generals but not him, while depending when there last resupplyment was, once outside the hiveland, holmes can order hunting parties in the local area and some to go north up into canada to be done at company level, because winter would be starting in less then a month and odds are snow is already on the ground, so find shelter for over 300,000 troops along with food and water has to be thought of as well

You quote and try to pick about this all you like, doesnt mean its impossible to do, it is possible to do it,dont mean its not going to be a pain to do

Mech-Viper wrote:
Food and Water , Holmes cares about his troops and getting caught with his pants doesnt seem to be holmes thing maybe the other generals but not him, while depending when there last resupplyment was, once outside the hiveland, holmes can order hunting parties in the local area and some to go north up into canada to be done at company level, because winter would be starting in less then a month and odds are snow is already on the ground, so find shelter for over 300,000 troops along with food and water has to be thought of as well

Of all the things that everyone disagrees with in this Thread, nobody thinks that a force of hundreds of thousands can survive "off the land" for any appreciable amount of time.

Truthfully, I don't think that even you believe this to be possible, either, but are simply blurting out something to gainsay everyone else.

If, however, you truly DO believe this to be so, then you sound REALLY foolish.

Unless you'd like to go into detail as to how they would've done it......

Mech-Viper: Uh...General Holmes , uh, had a Contingency Plan at the ready in case, uh...........um.....................er......... they'd be tricked by the Tolkeen Army into having to stay in the Hivelands for several weeks and, um, packed Food enough to do so!!! Yeah, that's the ticket!!

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