Hypothetical Senario: Glitter Boy vs. Three SAMAS

[Lenwen]

No, they're not totally different things. They're both techology based methods of hearing. There's no reason to presume that an integrated bionic system is capable of something an integrated power armor system is not.

However, there's a much better arguement to be used here, but I'll let you find it.

Until the PA's are "stated" as having the exact same thing as the bionic version on pg 51 ..

Your not making sense mack .. You are trying to suggest that PA's who do not have the same hearing abilities .. automatically do .. just because one version of tech can do this very thing ..

And thats wrong.

[Mack]

No, they're not totally different things. They're both techology based methods of hearing. There's no reason to presume that an integrated bionic system is capable of something an integrated power armor system is not.

However, there's a much better arguement to be used here, but I'll let you find it.

Until the PA's are "stated" as having the exact same thing as the bionic version on pg 51 ..

Your not making sense mack .. You are trying to suggest that PA's who do not have the same hearing abilities .. automatically do .. just because one version of tech can do this very thing ..

And thats wrong.

You claimed that sound filtration and sound enhancement technologies are incompatable systems. I showed the two technologies are compatable. There's no reason to presume the combination works in one application (bionics) and not in another (power armor)--if it didn't work the book would say so.

However, there's a much better arguement you could make against sound filtration and sound enhancement, if you do your research.

[Lenwen]

You claimed that sound filtration and sound enhancement technologies are incompatable systems.

Mack, I stated .. that a PA can not stand near a Boom gun and its occupant not get hit with the defening sound of the boom gun.

You then tried to say that because 1 Bionic system has the ability to stop such things, you reasoned that PA's do also have that same ability yet no PA's that I am aware of have that VERY complicated tech in thier hearing systems ..

Unless Palladium hand waviumed them into the PA's ?

[Nomadic]

Ok quesiton... Don't you suffer Negs from pushing past the Crusing speed of a PA to Pilot Rolls?

[Mack]

You claimed that sound filtration and sound enhancement technologies are incompatable systems.

Mack, I stated .. that a PA can not stand near a Boom gun and its occupant not get hit with the defening sound of the boom gun.

You then tried to say that because 1 Bionic system has the ability to stop such things, you reasoned that PA's do also have that same ability yet no PA's that I am aware of have that VERY complicated tech in thier hearing systems ..

Unless Palladium hand waviumed them into the PA's ?

Except that's not what you said.

Either thier PA allows them enhanced hearing which in fact would defen them in the advent of a Boom gun going off and all penalties would be applied ..

Or thier PA does not grant them advanced hearing .. in which case .. thier is no penalty for them when the Boom gun goes off near them.

You can not have it both ways ..

That would not be logical.

Your Either/Or statements presumed that enhanced hearing is incompatable with sound filtration. I showed you that presumption is a logical fallacy. Also, if you read what I wrote you'll notice I didn't discuss sonic booms and power armor at all.

(And at a mere 3,500 credits, it's disingenious to call sound filtration "VERY complicated tech.")

[Lenwen]

You claimed that sound filtration and sound enhancement technologies are incompatable systems.

Mack, I stated .. that a PA can not stand near a Boom gun and its occupant not get hit with the defening sound of the boom gun.

You then tried to say that because 1 Bionic system has the ability to stop such things, you reasoned that PA's do also have that same ability yet no PA's that I am aware of have that VERY complicated tech in thier hearing systems ..

Unless Palladium hand waviumed them into the PA's ?

Except that's not what you said.

Either thier PA allows them enhanced hearing which in fact would defen them in the advent of a Boom gun going off and all penalties would be applied ..

Or thier PA does not grant them advanced hearing .. in which case .. thier is no penalty for them when the Boom gun goes off near them.

You can not have it both ways ..

That would not be logical.

Your Either/Or statements presumed that enhanced hearing is incompatable with sound filtration. I showed you that presumption is a logical fallacy. Also, if you read what I wrote you'll notice I didn't discuss sonic booms and power armor at all.

(And at a mere 3,500 credits, it's disingenious to call sound filtration "VERY complicated tech.")

A) - it was what I said. If you read something else then what I stated in my post. Thats on you.

B) - Funny your saying if I read what you wrote .. while clearly not paying attention to what I said in my post ..

[Nomadic]

QQ, Oh noes! Someone mis read a post on the interwebs!

Like this never happens.

Back to the point at hand, don't you suffer negivates while pushing to max speed in a PA past crusing speeds to your Skill roll?

[popscythe]

Scrag! The thread crashes into the mountains and everyone dies... again.

[Mack]

You claimed that sound filtration and sound enhancement technologies are incompatable systems.

Mack, I stated .. that a PA can not stand near a Boom gun and its occupant not get hit with the defening sound of the boom gun.

You then tried to say that because 1 Bionic system has the ability to stop such things, you reasoned that PA's do also have that same ability yet no PA's that I am aware of have that VERY complicated tech in thier hearing systems ..

Unless Palladium hand waviumed them into the PA's ?

Except that's not what you said.

Either thier PA allows them enhanced hearing which in fact would defen them in the advent of a Boom gun going off and all penalties would be applied ..

Or thier PA does not grant them advanced hearing .. in which case .. thier is no penalty for them when the Boom gun goes off near them.

You can not have it both ways ..

That would not be logical.

Your Either/Or statements presumed that enhanced hearing is incompatable with sound filtration. I showed you that presumption is a logical fallacy. Also, if you read what I wrote you'll notice I didn't discuss sonic booms and power armor at all.

(And at a mere 3,500 credits, it's disingenious to call sound filtration "VERY complicated tech.")

A) - it was what I said. If you read something else then what I stated in my post. Thats on you.

B) - Funny your saying if I read what you wrote .. while clearly not paying attention to what I said in my post ..

Then please explain how your Either/Or statements do not presume that enhanced hearing is incompatable with sound filtration.

[Lenwen]

You claimed that sound filtration and sound enhancement technologies are incompatable systems.

Mack, I stated .. that a PA can not stand near a Boom gun and its occupant not get hit with the defening sound of the boom gun.

You then tried to say that because 1 Bionic system has the ability to stop such things, you reasoned that PA's do also have that same ability yet no PA's that I am aware of have that VERY complicated tech in thier hearing systems ..

Unless Palladium hand waviumed them into the PA's ?

Except that's not what you said.

Either thier PA allows them enhanced hearing which in fact would defen them in the advent of a Boom gun going off and all penalties would be applied ..

Or thier PA does not grant them advanced hearing .. in which case .. thier is no penalty for them when the Boom gun goes off near them.

You can not have it both ways ..

That would not be logical.

Your Either/Or statements presumed that enhanced hearing is incompatable with sound filtration. I showed you that presumption is a logical fallacy. Also, if you read what I wrote you'll notice I didn't discuss sonic booms and power armor at all.

(And at a mere 3,500 credits, it's disingenious to call sound filtration "VERY complicated tech.")

A) - it was what I said. If you read something else then what I stated in my post. Thats on you.

B) - Funny your saying if I read what you wrote .. while clearly not paying attention to what I said in my post ..

Then please explain how your Either/Or statements do not presume that enhanced hearing is incompatable with sound filtration.

After you explain to me how your trying to assume .. that a Power Armor (which was the topic yet again mack) has the same hearing abilities .. as a Bionic system .. (especially since the Power Armor does not have that listed as one of its capabilities in the first place)

There in lies the real debat here .. anything else is just avoidence .. by you or me.

[Nomadic]

Scrag! The thread crashes into the mountains and everyone dies... again.

Seems like it.

I've done the math, and it seems like even with open field and the GB wining INT they SAMM will still win, even if no real tactics are used, sure one might die, but the other two will wittle him down after they get into Melee.

[Mack]

Nice dodge. Review how this started. You're Either/Or post claimed that enhanced hearing is incompatable with sound filtration. I showed that your logic was wrong. I addressed your logic, not power armor.

I didn't claim Power Armor has enhanced hearing (oddly though you assumed it did in your Either/Or post).

Now then: "please explain how your Either/Or statements do not presume that enhanced hearing is incompatable with sound filtration."

[Lenwen]

Nice dodge. Review how this started. You're Either/Or post claimed that enhanced hearing is incompatable with sound filtration. I showed that your logic was wrong. I addressed your logic, not power armor.

I didn't claim Power Armor has enhanced hearing (oddly though you assumed it did in your Either/Or post).

Now then: "please explain how your Either/Or statements do not presume that enhanced hearing is incompatable with sound filtration."

Once again mack .. go back an READ .. then comprehend the context of my post when it was talking about Sound filtration on a Power Armor ..

You seem to have your very own circle logic skill mack. It does not make sense ..

[Lenwen]

Again Mack ..

Please show me how a Bionic ability .. is the same as on a Power Armor ?

This is the crutch of your side of the debat. You think PA's have that ability just because it is an ability one can get threw Bionic's ..

Show me how you came to such a conclusion ?

[Mack]

You're not reading what I just wrote. You assumed that enhanced hearing and sound filtration were incompatable. I used bionics as an example to show how your logic was wrong. You're Either/Or post claimed a PA could have either enhanced hearing or sound filtration but not both. That's a false assumption.

My point was your logic, nothing else. You assumed I was argueing in favor of the power armor when I was not.

[Lenwen]

You're not reading what I just wrote. You assumed that enhanced hearing and sound filtration were incompatable.

Wrong, this is what your reading into my post. Clearly I .. the person who posted what I posted know exactly what I said. PA standing NEXT .. to a Boom gun, WILL either get the entire penalty as per the boom gun deafening them. Or it has no effect what so ever.

You claim otherwise .. because of a Bionic system which in no way imparts anything of the abilities it stats it grants to its users .. onto a Power Armor.

I used bionics as an example to show how your logic was wrong. You're Either/Or post claimed a PA could have either enhanced hearing or sound filtration but not both. That's a false assumption.

Proved me a book and pg# that shows any PA that has both .. Otherwise your trying to push off your opinion as a fact.

[Mack]

You're not reading what I just wrote. You assumed that enhanced hearing and sound filtration were incompatable.

Wrong, this is what your reading into my post. Clearly I .. the person who posted what I posted know exactly what I said. PA standing NEXT .. to a Boom gun, WILL either get the entire penalty as per the boom gun deafening them. Or it has no effect what so ever.

You claim otherwise .. because of a Bionic system which in no way imparts anything of the abilities it stats it grants to its users .. onto a Power Armor.

I used bionics as an example to show how your logic was wrong. You're Either/Or post claimed a PA could have either enhanced hearing or sound filtration but not both. That's a false assumption.

Proved me a book and pg# that shows any PA that has both .. Otherwise your trying to push off your opinion as a fact.

You're still not reading what I'm writing.

In fact, you completed ignored this:

My point was your logic, nothing else. You assumed I was argueing in favor of the power armor when I was not.

I am not claiming that any power armor has both systems.

By the way, this statement...

PA standing NEXT .. to a Boom gun, WILL either get the entire penalty as per the boom gun deafening them. Or it has no effect what so ever.

...is not the same as your Either/Or statement. Perhaps if this is what you meant, then this is what you should have written.

[Lenwen]

Still waiting for a pg# an book refrence Mack ..

Come on now I know you as a Mod should be able to back up your own points of debats ..

[Mack]

Still waiting for a pg# an book refrence Mack ..

Come on now I know you as a Mod should be able to back up your own points of debats ..

You're asking me to prove something I didn't claim, which is a wonderful distraction on your part.

Of course, you'd know that if you comprehended my previous post.

[Lenwen]

Still waiting for a pg# an book refrence Mack ..

Come on now I know you as a Mod should be able to back up your own points of debats ..

You're asking me to prove something I didn't claim, which is a wonderful distraction on your part.

Of course, you'd know that if you comprehended my previous post.

Speaking of comprehending , Did you ever comprehend my post about the PA's not being able to take the boom gun deafening sound or taking it all ?



I'm guessing you could not .. considering your only form of debating that very fact is to point to a "Bionic" system, not a PA hearing system ..

[Mack]

Still waiting for a pg# an book refrence Mack ..

Come on now I know you as a Mod should be able to back up your own points of debats ..

You're asking me to prove something I didn't claim, which is a wonderful distraction on your part.

Of course, you'd know that if you comprehended my previous post.

Speaking of comprehending , Did you ever comprehend my post about the PA's not being able to take the boom gun deafening sound or taking it all ?



I'm guessing you could not .. considering your only form of debating that very fact is to point to a "Bionic" system, not a PA hearing system ..

Since you're not reading what I've written, should I just quote myself?

I used bionics as an example to show how your logic was wrong. You're Either/Or post claimed a PA could have either enhanced hearing or sound filtration but not both. That's a false assumption.

My point was your logic, nothing else.

Of course, perhaps you keep coming back to that because we're suffering a communciation breakdown--you're not receiving the message I'm sending. Which means there's no point in carrying this further.

[popscythe]

I've done the math, and it seems like even with open field and the GB wining INT they SAMM will still win, even if no real tactics are used, sure one might die, but the other two will wittle him down after they get into Melee.

I'm thinking that with proper use of their flying dodge bonuses, the SAMs might not even need to close to melee. Of course it would be pretty touch and go... One lucky roll too many and pop goes the weasel.

[Nekira Sudacne]

These are Generic SAMAS. They do not have anything special installed to avoid the deafness.

[jaymz]

If they have nothing to stop sound then woudl they not go deaf from the roar of air going by thier heads while flying at 300 mph? It's not a sonic boom but it'll be loud enough to be a hindrance. I woudl think all environmental armour have some form of sound dampening just by thier very nature.

[Nomadic]

If they have nothing to stop sound then woudl they not go deaf from the roar of air going by thier heads while flying at 300 mph? It's not a sonic boom but it'll be loud enough to be a hindrance. I woudl think all environmental armour have some form of sound dampening just by thier very nature.

Some yes, but a MACH 4 boom is enough to deafin you for life. As in, never hear again ever.

300mph is loud, but Mach 4 and near sea level is 3,044 MPH!

165 Decibel of a 747 Taking off at ground level.
180 1 Pond of TNT at 15 ft.
195 Human Eardrums Rupture 50% of the time
218.2 Sonic Boom F-16. at 100 feet high. Possible Death from Shock wave. Permanent deafness.

[jaymz]

Well then why bother with this argument. Everyone and everythign within several hundred feet of a glitterboy from teh mach 5 sonic boom will be permenently deaf though logic woudl dictate this woud be taken care of shortly after any military with any tech capaility after their first few encounters with a Glitterboy.

Saying the CS would not have taken this into account and protected against this is ludicrous sicne they would know full well that a GB gun would have this affect. Not to mention no one in thier right mind would be anywhere near the GB to support it since they too woudl be deafened permanently and I for one if a GM allowed these affects woudl never play in any group that has a GB in it for fear of being deafened permanently by my own party memeber.

Take in to account artillery crews in modern day. Those Howizters fire thier shells at mach speeds iirc. If thatsi the case why are they not permanently deafened? Basic hearing protection. Is it all that hard to think hevay environmental armour or PA has such basic hearing protection built in? Especially since if they didnt you couldnt even hear your own commset do tot eh noiuse of your own suit, armour clanking ro combat?

[Nomadic]

Well then why bother with this argument. Everyone and everythign within several hundred feet of a glitterboy from teh mach 5 sonic boom will be permenently deaf though logic woudl dictate this woud be taken care of shortly after any military with any tech capaility after their first few encounters with a Glitterboy.

Saying the CS would not have taken this into account and protected against this is ludicrous sicne they would know full well that a GB gun would have this affect. Not to mention no one in thier right mind would be anywhere near the GB to support it since they too woudl be deafened permanently and I for one if a GM allowed these affects woudl never play in any group that has a GB in it for fear of being deafened permanently by my own party memeber.

Take in to account artillery crews in modern day. Those Howizters fire thier shells at mach speeds iirc. If thatsi the case why are they not permanently deafened? Basic hearing protection. Is it all that hard to think hevay environmental armour or PA has such basic hearing protection built in? Especially since if they didnt you couldnt even hear your own commset do tot eh noiuse of your own suit, armour clanking ro combat?

Someones Grammar is worse than mine!

I would agree if it the books didn't single out PA and say that they suffer the same effects.

That being said, I've never used that rule unless someone was without a helm.

[jaymz]

Someones Grammar is worse than mine!

I would agree if it the books didn't single out PA and say that they suffer the same effects.

That being said, I've never used that rule unless someone was without a helm.

Grammar is for english majors of which I am not

Which PA did they single out as suffering the effects? I dont have my books available for acouple of weeks (they are packed)

I typically use the rules for those not in full armour etc. Juicer plate isnt seqled up , huntsman, etc or full armour without the helmet as you do.

[Nomadic]

Someones Grammar is worse than mine!

I would agree if it the books didn't single out PA and say that they suffer the same effects.

That being said, I've never used that rule unless someone was without a helm.

Grammar is for english majors of which I am not

Which PA did they single out as suffering the effects? I dont have my books available for acouple of weeks (they are packed)

I typically use the rules for those not in full armour etc. Juicer plate isnt seqled up , huntsman, etc or full armour without the helmet as you do.

Sure it's

Characters
who are in protective body or power armor will have some protection,
but are still temporarily deafened for 1D4 minutes; same penalties
apply. Which are listed as and are -8 on initiative and —3 to parry and dodge.

Instead of 2d4 Mins with no Armor.

[jaymz]

Oye that is assinine....that is essentially no protection which is crazy. No one would ever be within range of helpnig them or supporting them because they woudl deafen thier own troops let alone anyone on hte other side.

[Nomadic]

Oye that is assinine....that is essentially no protection which is crazy. No one would ever be within range of helpnig them or supporting them because they woudl deafen thier own troops let alone anyone on hte other side.

In free Q it states that the GB Support have heavy sound supression and still have serious side effects for being on the line too long.

[jaymz]

Again that is crazy. By that setup then any artillery crew would be deaf too. Another example of someone not thinking when they create something and how it woudl affect gameplay overall....oye

[Nomadic]

Again that is crazy. By that setup then any artillery crew would be deaf too. Another example of someone not thinking when they create something and how it woudl affect gameplay overall....oye

Agreed, which is why I say if you have a GBP in your group you are ok as he has shown you how to protect your armor. As well as FreeQ military protecting thier peeps.

But honestly, Sonic Booms can cause Death! They are not something in which ones wishes to F with.

[jaymz]

Oh no doubt but problem is I have a hard time suspending my disbeleif that this bazooka creates such a sonic boom to do as they say when artillery now is essentially firing projectiles at sueprsonic speeds and they do not create a sonic boom. In theory anything firing a projectile at supersonic speeds creates a sonic bom of some kind. If the GB crates that kind of aboom then it shoudl have a shockwave involved as well and everyone within 100feet would have to roll to maintain their balance but they don;t

[Nomadic]

They should, and thx for that, I'll add it to the rules!

I'm pretty sure a CokeCan moving at 3,000MPH is a force to be rekkoned with.

[Shark_Force]

once again, the SAMAS is:

1 - a military vehicle in addition to being a power armor
2 - designed for NEMA to use alongside the glitter boy power armor

it should be insulated from the sonic boom just fine.

[Nomadic]

once again, the SAMAS is:

1 - a military vehicle in addition to being a power armor
2 - designed for NEMA to use alongside the glitter boy power armor

it should be insulated from the sonic boom just fine.

Rifts Novel One Sonic Boom. UAR Enforcer was deafened. (I think.. been a while) might have just been the ground troops. IN EBA CS ARMOR!

[J_cobbers]

Again that is crazy. By that setup then any artillery crew would be deaf too. Another example of someone not thinking when they create something and how it woudl affect gameplay overall....oye

Heh actually hearing damage and loss is not uncommon in the military, especially for Artillery personel. Yes you get hearing protection but it may not be fully effective. That's why the VA has disability compensation, hearing is part of that. Heck my recruiter had hearing aids paid for by the Army because she has partial hearing loss due to service. I imagine that Colalition vets would be elegible for bionic ears after serving in battle against a GB. "good job son bringing down that rogue GB with your squad, sorry about your ears, seen it happen to a few men in my time. Don't worry though the staff cyberdocs will fix you right up, heck you'll be hearing better than you did before the fight!"

[Nomadic]

Again that is crazy. By that setup then any artillery crew would be deaf too. Another example of someone not thinking when they create something and how it woudl affect gameplay overall....oye

Heh actually hearing damage and loss is not uncommon in the military, especially for Artillery personel. Yes you get hearing protection but it may not be fully effective. That's why the VA has disability compensation, hearing is part of that. Heck my recruiter had hearing aids paid for by the Army because she has partial hearing loss due to service. I imagine that Colalition vets would be elegible for bionic ears after serving in battle against a GB. "good job son bringing down that rogue GB with your squad, sorry about your ears, seen it happen to a few men in my time. Don't worry though the staff cyberdocs will fix you right up, heck you'll be hearing better than you did before the fight!"

Sgt J Cobbers has just become an NPC in my CS games, and when every any gets messed up he is going to have some quote like this. Well played.

[jaymz]

Again that is crazy. By that setup then any artillery crew would be deaf too. Another example of someone not thinking when they create something and how it woudl affect gameplay overall....oye

Heh actually hearing damage and loss is not uncommon in the military, especially for Artillery personel. Yes you get hearing protection but it may not be fully effective. That's why the VA has disability compensation, hearing is part of that. Heck my recruiter had hearing aids paid for by the Army because she has partial hearing loss due to service. I imagine that Colalition vets would be elegible for bionic ears after serving in battle against a GB. "good job son bringing down that rogue GB with your squad, sorry about your ears, seen it happen to a few men in my time. Don't worry though the staff cyberdocs will fix you right up, heck you'll be hearing better than you did before the fight!"

That's just it thouhg. They knwo FQ used GBs and there is a signinficant chance of encountering one. GBs arent exactley super rare. After a few encounters I would imagne tthe CS military machine woud lbe smart enough to just base lin mod everything to avoid this problem in teh future . If not then the IQ of the CS militayr is non existent.

[Nomadic]

That's just it thouhg. They knwo FQ used GBs and there is a signinficant chance of encountering one. GBs arent exactley super rare. After a few encounters I would imagne tthe CS military machine woud lbe smart enough to just base lin mod everything to avoid this problem in teh future . If not then the IQ of the CS militayr is non existent.

Because they care?
They have the money to recall EVERYONE for an upgrade?

Now maybe in the UPGRADED Armors, yes, but not the standard rules, which this debate was based on.

"...because the US Army didn't think a soliders life was worth $300,000 dollars each..."

[jaymz]

That's just it thouhg. They knwo FQ used GBs and there is a signinficant chance of encountering one. GBs arent exactley super rare. After a few encounters I would imagne tthe CS military machine woud lbe smart enough to just base lin mod everything to avoid this problem in teh future . If not then the IQ of the CS militayr is non existent.

Because they care?
They have the money to recall EVERYONE for an upgrade?

Now maybe in the UPGRADED Armors, yes, but not the standard rules, which this debate was based on.

"...because the US Army didn't think a soliders life was worth $300,000 dollars each..."

True ut what I am sayinhg is that prior to the basis of the standard rules the CS would have been in a position to already have built in said protection since said gear predates the RMB dateline by quite a bit is all.

Now that being said you and I more or less handle it a similar way outsaide of "standard rules" so it's not really an argument per se

[popscythe]

Robot vehicle refers to the mecha-like robot vehicles (and other, larger robot vehicles), not to power armor.

SAMAS aren't immune to the deafness. That's why they should engage the GB as I suggested above.

[Shark_Force]

i'm not talking about the heavy robots. i'm talking about the "CS military vehicles" clause.

is the SAMAS a vehicle? yes. yes it is. it is a part of a specific subset of vehicles, called power armor. but nevertheless, just as motorcycles or trucks or helicopters are still vehicles, the SAMAS is still a vehicle.
is the SAMAS a CS design? not as such, but it has been adopted by them and is mass-produced by them in the millions. the SAMAS that the CS uses can be considered a CS design, even if the only major changes are cosmetic changes.
is the SAMAS a military design? absolutely yes. in fact, as i've pointed out repeatedly, the SAMAS design was used by NEMA (as the silver eagle SAMAS, if memory serves correctly), the Northern Eagle Military Alliance. an organisation widely known to also make extensive use of the glitter boy. and which could expect to take issue with their own troops being deafened on a regular basis every time there is any sort of fight, which would essentially remove the ability of the soldier to communicate effectively, which is highly undesirable in a combat situation. troops that don't act as a unit tend to die as individuals.

we can therefore conclude that, being a vehicle, used by the CS, in their military, the SAMAS is in fact a CS military vehicle. a single-pilot, humanoid-shaped, originally from another military vehicle, but a CS military vehicle nonetheless.

i just can't fathom how it would make any sort of sense to assume that NEMA would support their glitter boy army with a power armor that is adversely affected every single time the glitter boy fires the main gun, which means that by the time the enemy gets in range the glitter boy had better have already won, because the SAMAS is not going to be in a good condition to wage war.

[Khanibal]

So, the thing to do is have a TW install Invisibility: Superior on my GB and wait for the Sams to be withing inches. Then I fire to BG, and even if I miss, all three of their brains turn to mush.

Much hilarity ensues.

[popscythe]

i just can't fathom how it would make any sort of sense to assume that NEMA would support their glitter boy army with a power armor that is adversely affected every single time the glitter boy fires the main gun, which means that by the time the enemy gets in range the glitter boy had better have already won, because the SAMAS is not going to be in a good condition to wage war.

"Support" doesn't at all mean "stand within the shockwave radius of". SAMAS are highly maneuverable, flying power armor. To properly support the GB, they would be flying somewhat local to it, not anywhere actually near it from the perspective of someone standing near the GB on the ground, much like similarly utilized military tactics in our real lives. Soldiers supporting a howitzer firing crew don't stand where they will be affected by the howitzer's deadly gas venting when it fires, but yet they provide excellent support nonetheless.

The CS clause you refer to only applies to robot vehicles, APCs, that sort of thing, not power armor, not personal armor. There's no need to try to stretch it past it's intentions for this argument. The SAMAS should not engage the GB on the ground in melee anyway, even if that would allow them to avoid the usage of the GB's boomgun, which it would not, as the GB would clearly be able to fire it and deafen them, and they would in turn be well aware of this fact.

Forcing the GB to reveal itself by drawing it's fire with one SAM dodging like crazy while the other two shoot the GB will result in a win for the SAMs. Any strategy not employing the SAM's greater maneuverability and ability to run the GB out of attacks is over-complicated and thus, in combat, ineffective.

[Nomadic]

Forcing the GB to reveal itself by drawing it's fire with one SAM dodging like crazy while the other two shoot the GB will result in a win for the SAMs. Any strategy not employing the SAM's greater maneuverability and ability to run the GB out of attacks is over-complicated and thus, in combat, ineffective.

After everything I've read, this is WIN! I use a tactic much like this in Eve:Online
One SAM's uses all actions and dodges like crazy while the GB tries to shoot him down, the other 2 start picking him off. If the GB switches targets the SAM's which switch roles and the new target would start dodging and the other two would start firing. The SAM Would know because they should be aliged in a 120 degree arc around the GB. See included Pictures.

http://i48.tinypic.com/1o9mc0.jpg

[Danger]

In my opinion it would simply take forever for them to win.

Herein lies the crux of the problem. Time is not on the Samas' side, it is on the Glitterboy's. The longer the fight lasts, the greater the chances are that the Glitterboy is going to shoot down the Samas. Once the Glitterboy drops one of the Samas, their chances for winning drops by an enormous amount. The Glitterboy has the staying power, not the Samas.

You see, there is nothing that the Samas can do to kill the Glitterboy any faster. On average their railguns will deliver 20 MDC per shot (I know, I know, it's technically 25. Sheesh. ) But their maximum damage for a burst from their railguns is 40 MDC. The Glitterboy, on the other hand, has a much wider range of damage. On average, their Boomgun will deliver 105 MDC, with a maximum of 180 MDC. Sure, they can roll lower, but they can also roll higher. A lot higher. It only takes a couple of good rolls and pop goes the Samas. In fact, the Glitterboy only needs 3 average strikes from the Boomgun to obliterate a Samas and remember, all he has to do is kill one, then it's downhill from there.

Let's be completely fanciful for a moment and imagine this scenario in the classic Old West Gunfighter setup. Let's even assume that no one dodges, and everyone hits every shot, delivering maximum damage.

Even hitting the Glitterboy every time, and doing maximum damage, the combined Samas with their 18 attacks can only muster 720 MDC in a single round. That is, of course, assuming that every Samas could survive til the end of the round to deliver its full damage. This is still not enough to finish the Glitterboy.

The Glitterboy on the other hand, with his 8 attacks, can crank up to 1440 MDC in a single round, nearly double what it would take to kill all three Samas.

Again, time is not in favor of the Samas. They have no control of the speed of the Glitterboy's demise, so the randomness of the dice are their enemy, and they are doomed to fail.

[Danger]

Forcing the GB to reveal itself by drawing it's fire with one SAM dodging like crazy while the other two shoot the GB will result in a win for the SAMs. Any strategy not employing the SAM's greater maneuverability and ability to run the GB out of attacks is over-complicated and thus, in combat, ineffective.

Even using every attack as a dodge, the crazy Samas is going to be subject to at least 1 (more likely 2) free shots from the Glitterboy which he cannot dodge. It is possible for the Glitterboy to 2-Shot a Samas. That's also not taking into account any shots that may hit the Samas, dodging or not.

Once the distraction is over (I give it less than 2 rounds), the other two Samas are in serious trouble.

I will grant that this is a good tactic; one of the best that's been submitted so far. This probably has the highest chance for success.

[popscythe]

My thinking was that the "bait" SAM would only need to make one or two dodges from cover to cover, and of course, if damaged or the GB switches targets, another would play bait.

Lets add it up and see what the probabilities are like. If we say the SAMs always fly out of cover when baiting, they get a +5 to dodge (and then their bonuses), right? Let me (or someone who remembers) dig through the old thread math and steal the bits we need.

The way I'm calculating it, if they're flying at 300mph and actively dodging, my numbers come up as follows:

1. Flying at 300mph: -6 to hit them
2. Actively evading: -1 to hit them
3. Called shot to the wings: -3 or -4 to hit the SAMAS wings
4. Dodging: The SAMs get +5 to dodge
5. +2 to strike using the Boom Gun

Total penalty to hit on a called shot in this circumstance: -10 or -11
Total penalty to hit on a regular shot in this circumstance: -7
Total roll to strike (including bonuses) when making a called shot: 18 or 19
Total roll to strike (including bonuses) when not making a called shot: 13

What that means is that on its best shots (standard, not a called shot), the Glitter Boy will flat out miss 60% of the time. The other 40% of the time, the SAMs can dodge at +5, meaning that they will succeed in their dodge attempt approximately 45% of the time. That puts the GB's best case scenario chance of actually causing damage in this circumstance at around 30% per shot.

Chance for the Glitterboy to hit: 40%
Chance for the SAM to dodge: 45%
Chance for Glitter Boy to actually cause damage on a given shot: 18%
Average damage for the Glitter Boy: 105 MDC


Using Cover

If the SAMs are using cover on foot at 60mph and moving in behind said cover, I was incorrect. The GB would not be firing wild, but blind (RUE page 361 - if you cannot see them (not just have them on radar, but see them), you're firing blind). That gives a -10 to hit and requires a called shot. That'd reduce him to four attacks per round (at an absolute maximum) and give him the following penalties and bonuses:

1. Firing blind: -10
2. Targets moving evasively: -1
3. Targets moving 60mph: -2
4. Called shot to the wings: -3 or -4
5. +2 to strike with the Boom Gun
6. Bonus to dodge: +5

Total penalties to strike without targeting the wings: -13
Total penalties to strike while targeting the wings: -16 or -17
Total roll to strike while not targeting the wings: 21
Total roll to strike while targeting the wings: 24 or 25

With this one, until they got close enough, it's almost impossible for him to hit them (only on a natural 19 or 20 would he hit), and at that point, they can dodge at +5 (thereby only needing a 16-17 to dodge, giving them a 15%-20% chance of success to dodge in the 10% chance that they are actually hit.

Chance to hit for the GB: 10% (best)
Chance to dodge for the SAMs: 17.5% (worst)
Overall chance for the GB to do damage: 8.25% per shot
Average damage for the GB: 105 MDC

Thanks Subjugator!

Anyway, So based on this math, I think my technique would result in a pretty solid SAMAS win. Of course, a critical hit to a SAM would definitely screw things all up for the SAMAS.

So... 80 wins out of 100 for team SAMAS, when drawing GB fire to allow the other two SAMAS to score solid hits on the GB, is what I'm thinking.