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Then there is me who says both entries were written bad for their stats. Which boils down to the editor, not the writer of both sourcebooks.

Then you have a whole bunch of people who don't get the concept of "play the game the way you want to" and need to get into a hissy fit on the internet.

Chris0013 wrote:Then you have a whole bunch of people who don't get the concept of "play the game the way you want to" and need to get into a hissy fit on the internet.

I think you miss the point, it should be more like this: You have a bunch of people who play the game the way they want to, AND throw a hissy fit on the internet supporting that THEIR way is better than YOUR way.

Tiree wrote:

Chris0013 wrote:Then you have a whole bunch of people who don't get the concept of "play the game the way you want to" and need to get into a hissy fit on the internet.

I think you miss the point, it should be more like this: You have a bunch of people who play the game the way they want to, AND throw a hissy fit on the internet supporting that THEIR way is better than YOUR way.

I bow to your wisdom, oh great and powerful Tiree.

Yeah, we are a varied group in our opinions and I am sure the games we play reflect this.

Chris0013 wrote:

Tiree wrote:

Chris0013 wrote:Then you have a whole bunch of people who don't get the concept of "play the game the way you want to" and need to get into a hissy fit on the internet.

I think you miss the point, it should be more like this: You have a bunch of people who play the game the way they want to, AND throw a hissy fit on the internet supporting that THEIR way is better than YOUR way.

I bow to your wisdom, oh great and powerful Tiree.

I just noticed your tag line and thought it was amusing, especially as I was rereading Girl Genius and there was a little scene hidden in one panel that goes right along with it. It showed a candy dispenser with a sign above it that read 'POISON' at the top and beneath POISON it read 'Illiteracy reducer'

Chris0013 wrote:finally ....someone who got the joke.

You kidding? How could I possibly pass up a golden opportunity like that?

Nightmask wrote:Not surprising, 'No really, X should have this but Y shouldn't have that' is pretty much to be expected as one feels certain X and Y are totally different and so their arguments don't have to be the same between the two.

Um... forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but we are talking about a completely different and separate subject matter here. With regard to the whole Veritech Hovertank thing, the point of contention wasn't that the Hovertank was written "correctly" based on the animation. Rather, the point of view being voiced in defense of Palladium's writers for the RPG was that perfect accuracy to the show is an unreasonable expectation when the writers also have to consider game balance, and that the mismatch in fire rates is a minor error that doesn't noticeably impact player immersion.

On the other hand, the present discussion about whether or not it's possible for a VF-1 to reenter a planetary atmosphere with fixed armaments isn't about the RPG... it's about the universe of the Robotech series itself. Apples and oranges, my friend.

Nightmask wrote:In regards to the issue of reentry while carrying exposed missiles, just because it's an anime with futuristic technology doesn't mean that they've had to have solved the RL issues regarding the impossibility of such.

But... as I've pointed out before, the OSM material from which all the official Robotech information comes does offer a yea or nay answer on the matter where other sources aren't saying. Under the research practices used to write the official Robotech materials, it's an admissible and highly reliable source of information. Using Harmony Gold's approach:

Does the show offer a direct yea or nay answer to the question? No.
Do any official canon Robotech publications? No.
Does the Original Source Material? Yes.

As per their practices, there's no need to go to supposition because there is an official and direct yes or no answer to the specific question from someone involved in either production or direction of the series. That answer is "Yes, the VF-1 can make reentry with ordinance and/or Super Packs attached."

Chris0013 wrote:Then you have a whole bunch of people who don't get the concept of "play the game the way you want to" and need to get into a hissy fit on the internet.

's pretty much the approach I posited back in the Hovertank thread. No need to get bent outta shape over a minor detail in Palladium's handiwork, just fix it with house rules for the gun.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Does the show offer a direct yea or nay answer to the question? No.
Do any official canon Robotech publications? No.
Does the Original Source Material? Yes.

See - and I pulled something else out of this:

Does the show offer a direct yea or nay answer to the question? Questionable.
Do any official canon Robotech publications? No.
Does the Original Source Material? Yes.

Because the show does provide some information, but not 100% definitive one way or the other, it's questionable. Because OSM usually is followed, but not necessarily, even using it as a reference is questionable.

I have not seen one instance through all your argue for it, to alter my interpretation that the Hardpoint Missiles can stay attached while entering an atmosphere. But there is no animated proof stating that a VF-1 could not use the Booster Packs within an atmosphere other than to get to Orbit.

But it does beg the question, if they had Booster Packs with additional missiles in the show, why didn't they use them during the reconstruction era for normal operations?

It's a big boost to the Valkyrie's performance to have the Fast Packs on them... right?

So common sense must dictate. Now it is possible that OSM Universe would state that the Fast Packs couldn't be used in Atmosphere save for breaching orbit. Then at a later point in time (a new series), someone else brought up this subject and changed their mind. This happens all the time.

I'm not saying your wrong but you are

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
And none of the Official ROBOTECH source state that its possible. not the Infopedia, not the 1 Canon art book. if it happens in the comics, then it may be true. but saying because 1 thing is true in the OSM, and thus HAS to be true in Roboteh is silly at best. ALOT of things in Robotech are true that aren't in the OSM, nor should every fact from the OSM be true in Robotech. if we except the OSM detaisl as Canon Facts for Robotech.... the Zentradie in Robotech are Fighting the "Souper-Version" Army.... and were created by the Race of Protoculture... not the Robotech Masters.

Regardless, it is opinion that the VF-2 cannot do what you say it cannot do. This is precisely why you use OSM to fall back on things not explained in the show. Otherwise why other with OSM at all? OSM either applies or it doesn't unless specifically stated that it doesn't (IE Protoculture is not a powersource in Macross but is in Robotech thus the Robotech explaination is the correct. Where Robotech does not specifically over-ride the OSM leaves the OSM material applicable until proven otherwise. Just because you want to cherry pick what can and cannot apply doesn't make it so.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:What's Truly funny about this Discussion.... in the Veritech Hover-tank thread... where it is mentioned the VHT can fire its main cannon 8 times in 15 seconds... but the RPG says 2x per 15 seconds.. the same posters who advocate giving the VF-1 new abilities not seen in the show, say the VHT is written correctly in the RPG...

you'll notice I was not one of the proponents of the RPG being correct yet here I am telling you the assumption[/] the VF-1 cannot re-enter atmosphere with external ordnance is just that. An [i]assumption.

in the SDF:macross OSM FAST packs couldn't be used in atmosphere. they're actually listed as "FAST pack space boosters" in preproduction art and supplimental materials.

in Macross 7 and later shows they added special FAST pack variants that could be used in atmosphere.

Tiree wrote:
But it does beg the question, if they had Booster Packs with additional missiles in the show, why didn't they use them during the reconstruction era for normal operations?

It's a big boost to the Valkyrie's performance to have the Fast Packs on them... right?

So common sense must dictate. Now it is possible that OSM Universe would state that the Fast Packs couldn't be used in Atmosphere save for breaching orbit. Then at a later point in time (a new series), someone else brought up this subject and changed their mind. This happens all the time.

I'm not saying your wrong but you are

Simple answer. They CAN be used in atmosphere but they were not designed to do so and thus in fact reduce the effectiveness of a VF-1 while IN atmosphere. It was designed mainly for space enhancement after all not atmospheric operations.

Tiree wrote:See - and I pulled something else out of this:

Does the show offer a direct yea or nay answer to the question? Questionable.

I know I'm not the only one to point out the flaws in the logic behind this, but I guess I can reiterate it one more time. You can only assign a label like "Questionable" if you're willing to take evidence of one thing as an example of a completely separate event under completely different circumstances. The "logic" behind it doesn't work, because that same logic would generate statements like "Some planes dump their fuel prior to emergency landings, so that means all planes dump their fuel before any kind of landing."

It does not logically follow that if a damaged plane jettisons empty ordinance containers and propellant tanks prior to an emergency reentry, that an undamaged plane cannot carry ordinance during a combat reentry.

Tiree wrote:Because the show does provide some information, but not 100% definitive one way or the other, it's questionable. Because OSM usually is followed, but not necessarily, even using it as a reference is questionable.

Because the show does not provide ANY answer to the specific query, and nor do the official Robotech printed materials, the OSM is the next port of call for a viable answer to the question according to the people whose job it is to determine what's what in the Robotech universe.

glitterboy2098 wrote:in the SDF:macross OSM FAST packs couldn't be used in atmosphere. they're actually listed as "FAST pack space boosters" in pre-production art and supplemental materials.

in Macross 7 and later shows they added special FAST pack variants that could be used in atmosphere.

I applaud your effort, but this is actually a (partially) incorrect statement. There is, in fact, evidence going back as far as '83 that suggests that FAST packs CAN be carried by a VF-1 during atmospheric flight. Likewise, atmospheric use of FAST packs showed up long before Macross 7, and they were bog standard packs at that... not specialized units. They did come up with special atmospheric-use option packs for Macross Plus and several later shows though.

EDIT: As a point of interest, the idea that a VF-1 can in fact carry FAST packs during its atmospheric operation is consistent thru to books published roughly a year ago, with some rather nice pictures.

Just out of curiosity, where has someone officially representing HG said that OSM outweighs other Robotech material such as the RPG, older comics, novels, etc. without their approval? I'm not denying that they have used OSM for official Robotech stats, but IINM all of that material was approved by Tommy, Steve, or Tom. Since its not in the animation or canon publications, does anyone have a statement from one of them saying VF-1s can reenter with missiles and fast packs still attached or that they use them within the atmosphere? Even then until its used in an official/canon publication they can change their minds, as with the Condor for example.

In what context does the OSM says VF-1s can use fast packs inside the atmosphere? Does it specifically apply to VF-1s operating before 2012? If so what limitations do they place on atmospheric operation?

Anyone want to check the last issue of From the Stars, IIRC Roy's prototype VF-1 (Skull 001) either jettisons or has its fast packs ripped off as it enters the atmosphere.
As someone previously pointed out, if they can use fast packs in the atmosphere and using them makes the VF-1 so much more of a fighter then why don't they after FOA, as they do continue to use them in space?

Jefffar wrote:
Then you have me who isn't in favour of 8 shots a melee and also isn't in favour of exposed ordinance during atmospheric entry.

True, but 8 Shots per Melee has a basis in the actual Animation of Robotech, verses The VF-1 Debate which relies on a 4th of 5th tier source to "prove" it can happen... in SDF:Macross (not Robotech). and Even Tommy/Steve/Kevin/MEMO has yet to Answer This question in a Public forum, nor on the Robotech.com Officers forum. the Fact Rick Jettisoned the Extra Armors is irrelevant. as the Even in question has little to do with the ability of an UN-Damaged Veritech to do so... its Just a Undamaged Veritech is never shown doing it within the confines of the Original 85 episodes.

Jaymz: Just because you want to cherry pick what can and cannot apply doesn't make it so.

I'm not Cherry picking, I completly ignore the OSM in my Games... use the proper Robotech names for Destroids and Other items.

I am telling you the assumption[/] the VF-1 cannot re-enter atmosphere with external ordnance is just that. An [i]assumption

but its not. The Show never shows it, within the confines of Robotech in the original 85-episodes, a Veritech returning to atmosphere wiht Missiles and Bombs on its wings never happens, one would have to Assume that its possible, I'm making no Assumption, just stating a Fact about the animation and dialog.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

I am telling you the assumption[/] the VF-1 cannot re-enter atmosphere with external ordnance is just that. An assumption

but its not. The Show never shows it, within the confines of Robotech in the original 85-episodes, a Veritech returning to atmosphere wiht Missiles and Bombs on its wings never happens, one would have to Assume that its possible, I'm making no Assumption, just stating a Fact about the animation and dialog.

No you have stated as fact the VF-1 can NOT do it. That is an assumption as, with regards to the animation, we do not know as it is never shown OR explained if it can or not. Since we are never given a scenario where it would be done (Rick's scene is an emergency re-entry not a combat one or any other kind for that matter) you cannot say "because it's not in the animation it cannot do it". You can factually say it is never shown in the animation but that alone is not factual evidence that it cannot, in fact, be done. You choose to ignore the OSM, that is your choice, but it is used in regards to Robotech (example, the use of the original Macross names for things now) except where the Robotech material supercedes the OSM (again for example protoculture in regards to Robotech). The OSM material available indicates it is possible and there is nothing in the animation that says it cannot (or can for that matter). That makes your assertion, that the VF-1 cannot, an [i]assumption not a fact based on lack of animated evidence and my assertion, that it can, an assumption based on available resources used for the show. My assertion, while an assumption, is not contradicted by the show in any way, while your assertion simply says "if it's not in the animation it can't happen". Your way can lead to a plethora of issues well beyond the scope of whether or not the VF-1 being able to re-enter with external ordnance.

except the OSM doesn't show it either, unless you go to the sequel shows, which aren't pertinent to this issue. even then no VF-1 has ever been shown in an atmosphere with the macross era FAST packs on.

you have VF-11's with special FAST packs, VF-17's with their unique set, VF-21's and 22's with their manueving unit only conformal sets.. no VF-1's with macross era sets.

jaymz wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

I am telling you the assumption[/] the VF-1 cannot re-enter atmosphere with external ordnance is just that. An [i]assumption

but its not. The Show never shows it, within the confines of Robotech in the original 85-episodes, a Veritech returning to atmosphere wiht Missiles and Bombs on its wings never happens, one would have to Assume that its possible, I'm making no Assumption, just stating a Fact about the animation and dialog.

No you have stated as fact the VF-1 can NOT do it.

only if you parced my sentance down into 1 little section... my entire statment on the matter: ""Otherwise, Within the Robotech Show as shown in the 85 epsiodes, the VF-1 cannot and does-not make Atmospheric re-entry with external ordinances or F.A.S.T packs added.""
Fact, it never happens, so if you based it off whats shown in the show... it cannot do it as nothing support said position.
sure this lead to people not pooping, but poop isnt a plot element in the show, so honestly i don't care.
Lets agree to Disagree, before this gets out of hand.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Lets agree to Disagree, before this gets out of hand.

"before"?

rtsurfer wrote:Just out of curiosity, where has someone officially representing HG said that OSM outweighs other Robotech material such as the RPG, older comics, novels, etc. without their approval?

Insofar as the question of how the OSM is rated in terms of its level of authority, that'd be the officially-endorsed position of the fans who were engaged by Harmony Gold to help put together the Infopedia and, later, the Shadow Chronicles art book.

Now, the answer to the second portion of your query is a two-parter. That the older stuff such as the RPG, the old comics, novels, etc. are less authoritative and reliable as sources for information about Robotech comes from the research practices of the writers who produced the content of the Infopedia. It's actually a lot kinder than what Harmony Gold's creative staff have said their policy is on the old stuff. HG's position, expressed by HG rep Kevin McKeever on Space Station Liberty, is that the old stuff has been thrown out and is not applicable anymore due to the lack of creative oversight by HG during its creation.

rtsurfer wrote:I'm not denying that they have used OSM for official Robotech stats, but IINM all of that material was approved by Tommy, Steve, or Tom.

More or less, but in my personal interactions with Tommy (which sometimes resulted in the points I raised being added to Infopedia articles) they seem to be just fine with letting the OSM set the pace provided it doesn't contradict the Robotech setting. Recently, it's even extended itself to include material from the OSM that isn't even in the Robotech TV series... like the UUM-7 micro-missile pod that now appears in both the RPG's Macross Saga Sourcebook and the Infopedia's VF-1 articles.

rtsurfer wrote:Since its not in the animation or canon publications, does anyone have a statement from one of them saying VF-1s can reenter with missiles and fast packs still attached or that they use them within the atmosphere?

I don't believe any of them have yet weighed in on the matter, no... but for them to do so for any contentious issue in the fandom is incredibly rare. I can only recall one occasion on which Tommy waded in personally to explain things... that was the fusion power thing that put the 1st and 2nd Gen mecha off of protoculture.

rtsurfer wrote:In what context does the OSM says VF-1s can use fast packs inside the atmosphere? Does it specifically apply to VF-1s operating before 2012? If so what limitations do they place on atmospheric operation?

Excellent questions.

In the OSM and related materials, the VF-1 has been shown as capable of using FAST Pack systems of varying types in normal atmospheric flight under a variety of circumstances. In no particular order, they've been shown using them for surface-to-orbit interception, upper atmospheric flight, and even ordinary low-altitude patrols on a few occasions. The normal VF-1A/J/S types have been shown operating with the full Super Pack suite, packs without the missile pods on the front, with full boosters but without the arm pack and the leg tank set, and with the "naked" booster pack version more common to the VT-1 and VE-1.

(As a side note, the "DYRLverse" makes rather a meal out of this, with several segments in which the VF-1R "Refined Valkyrie" family operates in atmosphere using their Super Pack II suite, alongside VE-1's with their full standard equipment load incl. boosters and leg tanks.)

As far as the time period it applies to, it covers the whole run of production blocks for the VF-1... from the early "series" pattern (Blocks 1-5) to the later "DYRL" version (Block 6 or later).

Limitations placed on atmospheric operation... well, they're not terribly specific about this, but the VF-1 supposedly sacrifices a good deal of atmospheric maneuverability when using Super Packs in atmosphere. A lot of it is simply superfluous, since the VF-1 can carry the same micro-missiles in the aforementioned UUM-7 micro-missile pods, and they don't need the boosters or conformal fuel tanks to extend their range because reaction engines are a great deal more fuel efficient in atmospheric flight (to the point where they have basically unlimited operational range). It's mostly only useful for operations where the plane would have to ascend above the atmospheric service limitation of the engine, at which point it's not getting enough intake air to function as a turbine and has to switch to operating as a combination plasma rocket and ion engine (almost identical in principle to Star Trek's impulse engines).

rtsurfer wrote:Anyone want to check the last issue of From the Stars, IIRC Roy's prototype VF-1 (Skull 001) either jettisons or has its fast packs ripped off as it enters the atmosphere.

Good catch. I pulled up the issue, and it looks to me like the prototype FAST Pack he has there is being ripped off by the reentry stresses. Mind you, he's accelerating into reentry using, if those boosters are the same as the production model, over 2,800kN of thrust, so that kind of shearing damage is probably inevitable. He's putting that prototype under far worse stresses than would ordinarily be encountered during reentry... and oddly enough, that gun pod on the center station is staying put JUST FINE.

rtsurfer wrote:As someone previously pointed out, if they can use fast packs in the atmosphere and using them makes the VF-1 so much more of a fighter then why don't they after FOA, as they do continue to use them in space?

As I said when it was previously pointed out, Super Packs improve a VF-1's performance in certain areas only... namely, armament and operational endurance in space. The latter is simply not an issue in atmospheric operation for the reasons I listed above, and the former generally wouldn't be necessary fighting isolated bands of renegades on the ground where maneuverability is going to be a great asset.

(In short, the penalties outweigh the benefits...)

jaymz wrote:You choose to ignore the OSM, that is your choice, but it is used in regards to Robotech (example, the use of the original Macross names for things now) except where the Robotech material supercedes the OSM (again for example protoculture in regards to Robotech).

Just about everything Robotech comes from the OSM, so I can't imagine why anyone would want to argue that it wasn't valid. Even the old stuff in the old RPG is based mostly on hasty translations and guesses from the animation and Macross art books. That's just how Robotech is, and the differences are being further eroded by Tommy Yune's work towards making Robotech a credible SF/action mecha series. (I suppose if you want to be successful, it doesn't hurt to study and copy the best practices of the heavy hitters in your industry.)

jaymz wrote:My assertion, while an assumption, is not contradicted by the show in any way, while your assertion simply says "if it's not in the animation it can't happen". Your way can lead to a plethora of issues well beyond the scope of whether or not the VF-1 being able to re-enter with external ordnance.

Hey now... some of the items in that plethora of issues are FUNNY. After all, nobody in the Robotech universe needs to answer nature because we never see anyone do so, right?

glitterboy2098 wrote:except the OSM doesn't show it either, unless you go to the sequel shows, which aren't pertinent to this issue. even then no VF-1 has ever been shown in an atmosphere with the macross era FAST packs on.

I could've sworn I addressed exactly this issue with you just a few posts ago... oh well, maybe my memory's going.

As I said before, you don't actually have to go to the sequel shows to find that. You find it there in greater profusion, but it's not unique to there. Right this very moment, I'm looking directly at a picture of a row of VF-1's with the normal Super Packs equipped (the kind you see in the original series and DYRL) sitting out on the tarmac under a bright blue sky. This picture is from 2010, but the idea is hardly anything new. Like I said, this goes back as far as '83, before DYRL came out, and comes from the pen of Macross mechanical setting coordinator Masahiro Chiba... AKA "the guy who wrote all the pretty stats that Palladium's writers and Harmony's researchers are copy-pasting."

I withdraw support for the g-Alpha being present in Ep84. This is based on:
-measurements I have taken using Robotech Research's Vindicator 4 & 8 Pictures in the website's Picture Archive on my computer monitor (screen is more modern proportions and with settings may effect the result)
-freeze frames at 6:05 (x2, can't be any more precise than that with my DVD player), 8:18 (x2 frames), on my TV (screen proportions consistant with when RT was broadcast). The DVD used was from the Legacy Edition
--the 2nd freeze frame @6:05 is when the Shock Trooper directly covers the crouching Alpha.
--the 1st freeze frame @6:05 is when the Shock Trooper has fully entered the frame and the Alpha is in a kneeling firing position.
--the 1st freeze frame @8:18 is just as the 1st Cyclone enters the shot completely
--the 2nd freeze frame @8:18 is with the 1st Cyclone passing in front of the alpha's foot
-I used measurements of the 3 vehicles from the following sources: RT.com Infopedia, Art of the Shadow Chronicles, 2E RPG (current), 1E RPG (old).

In all of those I took multiple measurements on the reference object to see if the resulting Alpha height remains consistant across multiple dimensions. I used the height AND length of the Cyclone to compute seperate values for the Alpha in the mid-ground in the shot, and with the Shock Trooper I used the length of the body (eye sensor to tip of the "tail" stub) AND the width from the outer edges of the two cannons. The results are...

In all the cases, with the exception of the RR Shock Trooper there was a distinct lack of consistancy in the calculated height for the Alpha against the two dimensions available in the shot. And consistancy is what I was looking for. It doesn't matter much if one measurement can be found to support the Alpha at giant size if another can be taken in the same frame that results in a different value. Multiple frames also helps establish consistancy in the scene.

About the only shot that remains potentially for a giant Alpha that I know of would be the unit I mentioned previously at Point K (the one with the misshapen head), but since we lack a known reference object in the shot to compare to...

rtsurfer wrote:Anyone want to check the last issue of From the Stars, IIRC Roy's prototype VF-1 (Skull 001) either jettisons or has its fast packs ripped off as it enters the atmosphere.

The top boosters hard to say if it was a jettision or torn off. The angle the pod appears at is odd, suggesting it may be in an early stage of coming off compared to the booster pods.

Roy's profile into the re-entry into the atmosphere more resembles Scott's late in NG#1 than Rick's in FoA, even down to Scott's "landing".

^So you used both the OSM stats for the cyclone and shock trooper and the modified numbers currently being used on rt.com and in AotSC?
I still can't figure out how the 52 has the same length as the 55 & 57 models when they have that long cannon/rail gun, and how Peter Walker can just change the height and resulting width because he doesn't like how the Shock Trooper is illustrated standing in the line art.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:Just out of curiosity, where has someone officially representing HG said that OSM outweighs other Robotech material such as the RPG, older comics, novels, etc. without their approval?

Insofar as the question of how the OSM is rated in terms of its level of authority, that'd be the officially-endorsed position of the fans who were engaged by Harmony Gold to help put together the Infopedia and, later, the Shadow Chronicles art book.

Now, the answer to the second portion of your query is a two-parter. That the older stuff such as the RPG, the old comics, novels, etc. are less authoritative and reliable as sources for information about Robotech comes from the research practices of the writers who produced the content of the Infopedia. It's actually a lot kinder than what Harmony Gold's creative staff have said their policy is on the old stuff. HG's position, expressed by HG rep Kevin McKeever on Space Station Liberty, is that the old stuff has been thrown out and is not applicable anymore due to the lack of creative oversight by HG during its creation.

Based on public comments by the uRRG, who created much of the infopedia, there wasn't much OSM (supposedly 2 mecha have detailed stats outside of Macross and most of it is on the VF-1), they didn't depend on it, and they were not uncritically incorporating it. They had to use rulers, their eyes, estimations, and calculations because the OSM was sometimes incorrect or not there for their purposes. They had to be careful with Mospeada, its self-inconsistant, and Southern Cross, due to changes in Robotech. They claimed that for the most part they were not overturning other Robotech sources. RA1 was used although it contained a number of errors which had to be corrected, the RPG (their primary Robotech source) is basically a less accurate OSM, and choosing OSM over sources like the comics was supposedly a personal choice apparently based on a distrust of those writers. Finally Tom edited the uRRG's submissions then Steve approved or reedited it before posting to the infopedia. I understand a couple of the entries were written by Tommy as the games and comics came out.

I'm thinking this attitude is a actually a significant change from how it was in the 80's. The tv series rarely uses mecha names, and when it does most are either not OSM or OSM not attached to its respective mecha. After the tv series was complete, Carl Macek made up new names for the Destroid toys, creating three sets of Destroid names -- those used onscreen, the OSM, and Macek's. I understand that Carl Macek took great exception over the OSM names being used for the Destroids instead of the ones he gave them and was pressing for the Matchbox names (his) to be restored.

rtsurfer wrote:^So you used both the OSM stats for the cyclone and shock trooper and the modified numbers currently being used on rt.com and in AotSC?

I chose not to give weight to one source over the other because at that point I wasn't necessarily interested in the actual resulting height of the Alpha, but merly that the height was consistant based on 2 available dimensions of the reference unit. Someting I don't think I've read having been used in this case.

That isn't to say that some of the calculations did not show a bigger Alpha, but by source they where not consistant values like they should have been. And in some of those bigger Alpha heights they where only based on one measurement, the other showed a smaller Alpha.

rtsurfer wrote: still can't figure out how the 52 has the same length as the 55 & 57 models when they have that long cannon/rail gun, and how Peter Walker can just change the height and resulting width because he doesn't like how the Shock Trooper is illustrated standing in the line art.

It maybe that the the long cannon/rail gun is not considered part of the measurement of the bike?

The change in size RR mentions with regard to the uRRG is why I went with their view for so long. It seemed like the change might have been to facilitate the uRRG's desired outcome in the discussion.

ShadowLogan wrote:@ESalter
As for the heads issue, never really looked into getting a Beta MPC because I thought they where way over priced (like the Cyclone ones).

Do I write like I'm made of money? I've seen pictures on the internet.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Spartas heads look that way to me in the animation.

Check out Olson's gallery: the heads are definitely different, if not always consistent with the sheet.

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't agree that identical heads have to mean identical equipment.

You're right that it wouldn't be true in every case, but the number of different heads suggests that different equipment is visually noticeable, and I don't see why "Vindicators" would be an exception.

ESalter wrote:Do I write like I'm made of money? I've seen pictures on the internet.

True about the pictures, it was just I've never been interested in getting them so never bothered to look into them at all. I won the VF-1A MPC and did purchase a VFA-6H, but the Beta (& Cyclone) price was a big turn off into even considering getting one. So after the "blue" Beta came out never looked into the I/Z/S versions.

ESalter wrote:Check out Olson's gallery: the heads are definitely different, if not always consistent with the sheet.

I did review it, but to me the differences looked like color based markings.

ESalter wrote:You're right that it wouldn't be true in every case, but the number of different heads suggests that different equipment is visually noticeable, and I don't see why "Vindicators" would be an exception.

In game terms (2E, but true even in 1E) there really isn't any difference in the heads, even though they look different. About the only Equipment to change for the Alpha is noted under the Sensors & Equipment is the Radar, Combat Computer, Shadow System.

Even w/o game terms, it may simply be a reorganization of the equipment for some reason. Possibly for easier maintainance.

ShadowLogan wrote:I withdraw support for the g-Alpha being present in Ep84. This is based on: [...] a distinct lack of consistancy [...]

Bingo! As I've said before, the one key factor that both of the canonized animation errors thus far share is that they're consistent with both the "spirit" of the original show(s) which were used in Robotech and the greater Robotech setting as a whole. The VF-1 with the three-gun monitor turret is consistent with the practice of a giving new variant a new head design across Macross and the rest of Robotech. Likewise, the laser weapons on the nose offer consistency within Robotech between the VF-1 (where it was a goof) and the Alpha (where it was not).

We simply don't get that level of consistency in Robotech for something like the idea that an existing VF design could be "jumbo-ized". Oddly enough, if we were talking about how things work in the universe(s) of the original show(s), we would have precedents for that kind of thing... albeit the kind that say "It's a phenomenally bad idea, don't do it."

rtsurfer wrote:Based on public comments by the uRRG, who created much of the infopedia, there wasn't much OSM (supposedly 2 mecha have detailed stats outside of Macross and most of it is on the VF-1), they didn't depend on it, and they were not uncritically incorporating it.

Having had the chance to examine much of the same material the uRRG's writers had used themselves, I'd have to say you might be overstating the scarcity of information from the original source materials. I won't deny that there are some areas where detailed info was either scarce or nonexistent and they had to "wing it", but the vast majority of such gaps come from Southern Cross... where the show's creators apparently didn't trouble to sort out any detail beyond what a mecha's name is.

rtsurfer wrote:They had to be careful with Mospeada, its self-inconsistant, and Southern Cross, due to changes in Robotech.

Okay, that is generous to the point of being wildly inaccurate. The source material for Genesis Climber MOSPEADA is actually pretty consistent, it's just that they don't go all out explaining how things work or what things are. I've seen, and worked with, much worse in terms of consistency.

On the other hand, the reason they had to be careful with the Southern Cross portion was because, as their notes frequently remind you, they often had nothing more to go with than a picture and a name. Very little information was ever given in official publications for that series, and in almost all cases detail wasn't so much "lacking" as it was "absent". The vast majority of it is stuff they came up with on their own, making educated guesses using the animation for everything from size to armament and capability. Even then, they had to content with the wildly inconsistent animation of the show.

Whatever the reasons, they ranked the OSM as one of the most reliable sources of info on Robotech... a practice that Harmony Gold has continued ever since.

rtsurfer wrote:Tom edited the uRRG's submissions then Steve approved or reedited it before posting to the infopedia. I understand a couple of the entries were written by Tommy as the games and comics came out.

To say nothing of the changes made to those entries since then, based on input from some contributors on Robotech.com (myself included).

rtsurfer wrote:I'm thinking this attitude is a actually a significant change from how it was in the 80's.

More dramatically than you think... in the 80's, Robotech was basically nothing but a hastily slapped-together toy commercial. It wasn't until much later that Harmony Gold had got the idea that they could reinvent Robotech as a serious SF/action anime, and it's only AFTER that point (circa 2000) that Robotech started putting increased emphasis onto OSM sources as they tried to retroactively build a series canon and a "series bible" to use on a going-forward basis.

rtsurfer wrote:I understand that Carl Macek took great exception over the OSM names being used for the Destroids instead of the ones he gave them and was pressing for the Matchbox names (his) to be restored.

By any realistic measure, Carl's opinion probably ceased to carry any weight around 1986-7 when Robotech: the Movie and Robotech II: the Sentinels fell apart. Even if we pretend his influence didn't dry up until his last project imploded and he was replaced, that still leaves his opinion unable to hold water on most any canon issue now that Tommy's up and rebooted the whole universe.

Disrespectful? Possibly. A bad thing? I'm not so sure...

ESalter wrote:Do I write like I'm made of money? I've seen pictures on the internet.

Lucky you... I know someone who was crazy enough to buy 'em all.

ESalter wrote:Check out Olson's gallery: the heads are definitely different, if not always consistent with the sheet.

Sorting out what's intentional and what's simply a screw-up in Southern Cross is just about impossible, due to the aforementioned lack of detail work on the part of the design staff for the series.

ESalter wrote:You're right that it wouldn't be true in every case, but the number of different heads suggests that different equipment is visually noticeable, and I don't see why "Vindicators" would be an exception.

If you'll forgive my (briefly) playing devil's advocate here, the idea of a different model with different capabilities and a (visibly) identical appearance isn't without precedent... at least in the OSM. In the main, I'm thinking of the VF-1X (VF-1A head w/ different camera setup and huge modernization changes), the VF-1B (a VF-1A w/ a S-type camera turret), and in more recent days, the VF-25G (a VF-25A head with a different camera arrangement and a better FCS for designated squad marksman use).

Seto Kaiba wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:Tom edited the uRRG's submissions then Steve approved or reedited it before posting to the infopedia. I understand a couple of the entries were written by Tommy as the games and comics came out.

To say nothing of the changes made to those entries since then, based on input from some contributors on Robotech.com (myself included).

I don't believe there have been a whole lot of changes to the infopedia besides the entries Tommy added and revision of the TMS & RTM timelines by Tom with assistance of fans like myself. I know there have been a number of suggested changes and promised changes that never happened and likely never will.

rtsurfer wrote:I'm thinking this attitude is a actually a significant change from how it was in the 80's.

More dramatically than you think... in the 80's, Robotech was basically nothing but a hastily slapped-together toy commercial. It wasn't until much later that Harmony Gold had got the idea that they could reinvent Robotech as a serious SF/action anime, and it's only AFTER that point (circa 2000) that Robotech started putting increased emphasis onto OSM sources as they tried to retroactively build a series canon and a "series bible" to use on a going-forward basis.

Maybe that's part of the problem with the current state of the franchise, they are trying to turn Robotech into something it never was, English translations of SDF Macross, SDC Southern Cross, & GC Mospeada. Granted it did use most of the animation, some names and terms, a number of plot elements, and its scripts began as inaccurate translations of those 3 originals; however, terms from the original don't necessarily mean the same thing as in those originals, the motivations and sub-plots changed to some degree, lots of additional talking for the sake of talking was added, as was names and terms not in the originals. Additionally, it has twenty-five years of fanon and secondary source baggage they want to pick and chose from then pretend much of it never existed. Not to mention increased fan interactivity and dvd availability of the tv series in the early rt.com era has resulted in a number of details and concepts being discovered or reevaluated by both the fans and HG. Complicated by HG wanting to reinterpret and retcon Robotech into the Shadow Chronicles universe. Perhaps its time for HG to consider what Robotech was in its hay day instead of what they want it to be.

rtsurfer wrote:I understand that Carl Macek took great exception over the OSM names being used for the Destroids instead of the ones he gave them and was pressing for the Matchbox names (his) to be restored.

By any realistic measure, Carl's opinion probably ceased to carry any weight around 1986-7 when Robotech: the Movie and Robotech II: the Sentinels fell apart. Even if we pretend his influence didn't dry up until his last project imploded and he was replaced, that still leaves his opinion unable to hold water on most any canon issue now that Tommy's up and rebooted the whole universe.

Disrespectful? Possibly. A bad thing? I'm not so sure...

I think that's actually funny.
IINM in the early 2000's Carl Macek consulted on ADV's Legacy set and helped put together the extras which were reused until the current re-release, wrote forwards for rt.com era publications, did interviews and occasionally continued to promote the franchise even though HG apparently didn't want him involved in any significant way during the early rt.com era with Shadow Chronicles, the new comics, or any other potential projects. Not to mention HG threw out his Graphic Novel, the Sentinel movie, much of Sentinels which was loosely based on his concepts and story, Untold Story (granted he wasn't happy with how that turned out) and as previously mentioned details like Macek's Destroid names.
NOW that he's gone and the franchise appears to be floundering again, HG is giving Carl Macek credit again for creating Robotech - while he deserves some of this credit certainly not the majority of it - and for the future release Robotech Love Live Alive. IIRC HG's reps have said that he originated the idea, started work on the story and script, and that they are supposedly completing the project as a tribute to him in death. I suspect that if it fails he will be blamed and if it does well someone else will take most of the credit.
IMO, not only disrespectful but possibly hypocritical. Is reinventing Robotech a good thing if what it was ends up being destroyed in the process? At least we will still have the original 1985/6, 85 episode tv series in the form of (Carl Macek's) Legacy set no matter how HG has or will treat Robotech in the recent past, present, and future.

rtsurfer wrote:I don't believe there have been a whole lot of changes to the infopedia besides the entries Tommy added and revision of the TMS & RTM timelines by Tom with assistance of fans like myself.

Granted, there haven't been scads of changes made to the Infopedia... but changes have been made where necessary or merited by the source material.

rtsurfer wrote:I know there have been a number of suggested changes and promised changes that never happened and likely never will.

's more than likely a state of affairs brought about in equal measure by the "if it doesn't (directly) make us money, then we don't care about it" attitude The Powers That Be at Harmony Gold have toward Robotech.com, and the certain members of the site's volunteer moderator staff declaring anyone who knew anything persona non grata for personal gain.

Anyhoo...

rtsurfer wrote:Maybe that's part of the problem with the current state of the franchise, they are trying to turn Robotech into something it never was, English translations of SDF Macross, SDC Southern Cross, & GC Mospeada.

Um... at the risk of puncturing your argument slightly, a hasty and entirely impromptu English translation of Macross, Southern Cross, and MOSPEADA is all Robotech ever was and was ever intended to be. It was done as a means of making Macross long enough for first-run syndication so they could use it as a promotional tool for the toy line their partner at the time (Revell) had screwed up their plans for a straight Macross dub with.

So, yes... they are trying to turn Robotech into something it never was. Specifically, they're trying to turn an old commercial for Revell's failed and long-defunct "Robotech" toy line(s) that did OK for itself because it retained most of the sophistication of the source material into a serious original SF/action mecha anime.

rtsurfer wrote:[...] its scripts began as inaccurate translations of those 3 originals; [...]

Was it you I corrected on this over at HP's RT site a couple months back, or was it Basara549?

Either way, your above statement is incorrect. You're confusing the original rewriting process with the creation of the subs only versions of the original shows for the "Perfect Collection" VHS series. It was the Perfect Collection's subtitles that had been based on inaccurate translations supplied by Tatsunoko.

rtsurfer wrote:Additionally, it has twenty-five years of fanon and secondary source baggage they want to pick and chose from then pretend much of it never existed.

Can't imagine why that lot got thrown out... might have something to do with it being low-quality stuff that was rife with plagiarism, copyright infringement, tracing, and general nonsense all done without any meaningful interaction with the few people whose job it was to make sure this kind of mess didn't happen. It's an embarrassing mess, and it's not hard to see why they're so keen to sweep it under the rug now that they're trying to reinvent the Robotech "brand" as a serious contender in the anime industry.

rtsurfer wrote:Perhaps its time for HG to consider what Robotech was in its hay day instead of what they want it to be.

Oh boy... are you really gonna make me say it? They're not going to like it if I do... oh well, tough love time.

Honestly, Robotech wasn't all that successful or well-regarded even back in its "heyday". It did OK ratings-wise, or at least the Macross Saga did, but the accompanying toy line didn't do well at all and it was constantly living in the shadow of the far more successful G1 Transformers series... and that was the franchise's high water mark. After that, they had a movie and sequel series fall apart on them for various reasons, a string of low-quality comics that didn't sell, novelizations that barely resembled the show, and then they crowned it with having the fans themselves turn up their noses at their final and spectacularly misguided attempt to breathe life back into Robotech... Robotech 3000.

That was Robotech's "heyday". I'm sure they thought long and hard about what Robotech was back then before embarking on their present course. Thinking about what they did wrong back then is probably what motivated them to throw out all the old stuff and start fresh, exercising careful creative control over new productions this time around. It's open to debate whether the tightness of their grip on the creative process is a good thing or not...

(All in all, Palladium Books came out of it as possibly the only successful Robotech licensee... they didn't just manage to hold onto their license, they actually did pretty well for themselves and their work was generally well-regarded.)

rtsurfer wrote:IINM in the early 2000's Carl Macek consulted on [...] though HG apparently didn't want him involved in any significant way during the early rt.com era with Shadow Chronicles, the new comics, or any other potential projects.

Logical, isn't it? Since the fans had built Carl up into a Gene Roddenberry/George Lucas-caliber creative visionary that he never was, using him to promote the series during the process of rebooting and reinventing the franchise was a generally intelligent idea, as was keeping him as far removed from the actual creative process given his track record on that front.

rtsurfer wrote:NOW that he's gone and the franchise appears to be floundering again, HG is giving Carl Macek credit again for creating Robotech [...] and for the future release Robotech Love Live Alive. [...] I suspect that if it fails he will be blamed and if it does well someone else will take most of the credit.

Sadly, I suspect that you're right... the prevailing theory I've heard in discussion with fans and people connected to HG is that Carl Macek put forward the idea of using Love Live Alive as a Macross: Flashback 2012-style epilogue OVA for the Robotech series as something he wished he'd done back in the 80's, and it was snapped up and turned into a "Let's do this right now" idea by the current creative staff.

rtsurfer wrote:IMO, not only disrespectful but possibly hypocritical. Is reinventing Robotech a good thing if what it was ends up being destroyed in the process? At least we will still have the original 1985/6, 85 episode tv series in the form of (Carl Macek's) Legacy set no matter how HG has or will treat Robotech in the recent past, present, and future.

But really, is just having the 1985 TV series going to be enough to keep Robotech alive? I don't think so, and apparently neither do its owners. Reinventing Robotech into a serious series using the best practices of the anime industry as a whole, and successful mecha shows in particular, is the only way that Robotech stands a chance of becoming a viable property for future growth... something that the industry will take seriously, instead of turning up its nose at as an example of old and bad practices.

ShadowLogan wrote:

ESalter wrote:Check out Olson's gallery: the heads are definitely different, if not always consistent with the sheet.

I did review it, but to me the differences looked like color based markings.

Focusing on images consistent with the sheet:

• Dana's often shows the notable crest (albeit raised more than it should). E.g. 12.
• Enlisted often show proper ear pieces (e.g. 15).
• 19: Compare Dana's ears to the others.
• 40: Dana and Angie show proper chin and ear pieces.

ShadowLogan wrote:

ESalter wrote:You're right that it wouldn't be true in every case, but the number of different heads suggests that different equipment is visually noticeable, and I don't see why "Vindicators" would be an exception.

Even w/o game terms, it may simply be a reorganization of the equipment for some reason. Possibly for easier maintainance.

Clever; I'd been trying to think of a reason for the different Valkyrie head shapes. It still supports my point — a change in equipment is demonstrated by head appearance.

rtsurfer wrote:Maybe that's part of the problem with the current state of the franchise...

Is there a problem with the current state of the franchise?

rtsurfer wrote:...they are trying to turn Robotech into something it never was, English translations of SDF Macross, SDC Southern Cross, & GC Mospeada.

If they really wanted that, they wouldn't need to "try"; English translations of the original series already exist. You could argue HG is straying too close to the original series. (I happen to agree, but that isn't new.)

rtsurfer wrote:Additionally, it has twenty-five years of fanon and secondary source baggage they want to pick and chose from then pretend much of it never existed.

They haven't much choice: fanon and licensed material contradicts the show. (For that matter, the show contradicts itself.)

rtsurfer wrote:Not to mention increased fan interactivity and dvd availability of the tv series in the early rt.com era has resulted in a number of details and concepts being discovered or reevaluated by both the fans and HG.

That ought to temper our criticism. If we're discovering new things about Robotech now, HG can't be blamed for not getting everything perfect.

rtsurfer wrote:Perhaps its time for HG to consider what Robotech was in its hay day instead of what they want it to be.

What was Robotech in its heyday? What heyday? Why? And why shouldn't HG make it "what they want it to be"?

rtsurfer wrote:NOW that he's gone and the franchise appears to be floundering again...

How so?

rtsurfer wrote:HG is giving Carl Macek credit again for creating Robotech...

They stopped giving Macek credit for creating Robotech? When was that?

rtsurfer wrote:...while he deserves some of this credit certainly not the majority of it - and for the future release Robotech Love Live Alive. IIRC HG's reps have said that he originated the idea, started work on the story and script, and that they are supposedly completing the project as a tribute to him in death. I suspect that if it fails he will be blamed and if it does well someone else will take most of the credit.
IMO, not only disrespectful but possibly hypocritical.

You're inventing bad behavior by HG and calling them hypocrites for it.

rtsurfer wrote:Is reinventing Robotech a good thing if what it was ends up being destroyed in the process?

What's been "destroyed"?

Seto Kaiba, It must have been Basara 549. I don't recall discussing the original translations any time recently.

ESalter, my bad as the current Robotech franchise really did well this year with 1 rpg book (almost 3 years late), 1 variant toy (about 6 months late), and a re-release of the tv series on DVD with new extras that's already selling for 67% below srp after only 1 month on the market. Oh I forgot, there's supposed to be a cool calendar too.
"Nevertheless, the series became an enormous hit, leading the ratings in its timeslot in key metropolitan markets and spawning a line of best-selling comics, novels, and home videos as well as merchandise ranging from toys to music to apparel. America had never seen an animation quite like this." -AotSC
You got me, HG always has the Shadow Chronicles OVA that sold "gangbusters" and tons of SC merchandise like those awesome wallets.
Not so much stopped giving Carl Macek credit as keeping him at arms length and shifting emphasis to Tommy Yune's reinvention of the Robotech Carl helped create, really can't blame them for wanting him out of Tommy's spotlight. About a year before his death it seemed like HG was starting to focus attention back on Carl and wanting more involvement from him.
What did I invent? Its my opinion based on impressions of the current franchise and comments made by HG's reps. Tommy said he was going to finish Carl's idea which he had started writing [in early 2010] before his death. Kevin McKeever said that Frank Agrama came into his office upon hearing of Carl's passing to tell him that the fans needed to know Robotech would go on, had to go on, will go on if only for Carl. Then HG made a full scale commitment to the Robotech franchise and greenlit his Robotech Love Live Alive project.
The last time you ask me for examples on a similar topic and I obliged we ended up in a heated exchange which I'd rather not repeat.

ESalter wrote:Is there a problem with the current state of the franchise?

Well, yes and no... it's one of those "a certain point of view" things that Obi-Wan just won't shut the heck up about. The origins of Robotech being what they were, the old-timers (the "85ers") in the fanbase are used to the show's "universe" being a vague, nebulous mess of contradictory stories with no unifying will or intent that they could freely cherry-pick from at their leisure to decide what was what in Robotech. They resent the notion that we have a new creative director who disowned all the old, poor-quality stuff and is laying down an "official line" on what's what in order to bring Robotech into the modern day and to make it a viable property for future exploitation.

(I imagine it also rankles that one of the factions from the bad old cherry-picking days got their viewpoint officially endorsed as an unintended side effect of the process of laying the official line down.)

To drag the thread of this back in the general direction of where we jumped off, the reason the OSM is being used as one of the main tools for determining the official line is because it comes from the show's real creators, and it makes the lives of the current creative staff at least a little easier because they already have answers that perfectly fit the animation for most situations... not that certain people are happy about that prospect, since they want to see Robotech separate itself from the OSM rather than cleave more tightly to it to define itself.

ESalter wrote:They haven't much choice: fanon and licensed material contradicts the show. (For that matter, the show contradicts itself.)

And each other... and themselves...

ESalter wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:NOW that he's gone and the franchise appears to be floundering again...

How so?

I've been wondering that myself... things are much as they were before Tommy came into "power". Robotech is still only really selling to the existing fanbase, and though there have been longer gaps between new releases, the releases themselves have been of much higher quality and there hasn't been a single cancellation. If you really wanted to be quite brutally honest about, this is probably the best off Robotech has ever been.

ESalter wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:Is reinventing Robotech a good thing if what it was ends up being destroyed in the process?

What's been "destroyed"?

Only the "Anything Goes" policy toward canon, now that Tommy's laying down the law and establishing an official line on what is and what ain't.

rtsurfer wrote:Seto Kaiba, It must have been Basara 549. I don't recall discussing the original translations any time recently.

Ah, I see...

rtsurfer wrote:"Nevertheless, the series became an enormous hit, leading the ratings in its timeslot in key metropolitan markets and spawning a line of best-selling comics, novels, and home videos as well as merchandise ranging from toys to music to apparel. America had never seen an animation quite like this." -AotSC

Looking at the objective data from the ratings, broadcast schedules, and the track records of its various merchandise lines, that statement doesn't really hold water... but I'd assume that was your point, yes? The show's ratings were nothing to write home about, though it might've led the ratings in the highly-unfavorable time slots it's landed in over the years. I don't think anyone could pretend the comics were best-sellers, seeing as most of them got canceled and Harmony Gold pulled the license from at least one company for doing such an abysmal job. Even most Robotech fans don't like the novels, to the point where they had to impose an insta-ban "don't bash the novels fans" rule on Robotech.com. The Revell and Matchbox toy lines didn't do so hot, and even the new Toynami stuff catches a lot of flak from the fandom for poor build quality. Music... well, the few albums we've had didn't exactly set the world on fire either, not by the standards of anime OSTs even here in the west. I could go on...

rtsurfer wrote:You got me, HG always has the Shadow Chronicles OVA that sold "gangbusters" and tons of SC merchandise like those awesome wallets.

Vague statements like that are a necessity if they're going to maintain customer confidence in the "brand". Even though it's made great leaps and bounds towards being mainstream in the Americas, anime still doesn't sell very well. Most shows are lucky to sell 50,000 copies, and Robotech is a VERY niche title. It's undeniably making a profit, but it's not selling anything like as well as more mainstream titles like Gundam 00 or The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.

(I'm not saying I agree with the practice, just that I understand the business necessity that motivates it. Fans will be more inclined to stick with Robotech if they're told that it's doing well for itself. In today's industry, especially during the recession, giving the actual numbers isn't going to inspire as much confidence because even a show that's selling great in the US isn't going to be doing nearly as well as a live-action American movie or an anime title in Japan, where hundreds of thousands or millions of copies could be sold.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ESalter wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:NOW that he's gone and the franchise appears to be floundering again...

How so?

I've been wondering that myself... things are much as they were before Tommy came into "power". Robotech is still only really selling to the existing fanbase, and though there have been longer gaps between new releases, the releases themselves have been of much higher quality and there hasn't been a single cancellation. If you really wanted to be quite brutally honest about, this is probably the best off Robotech has ever been.

If Robotech merchandise were available at Walmart, Target, Kmart, etc it might not only be selling to the existing fanbase. If only there were new merchandise to sell in those store. "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride"

In the early 2000's the fans were lead to believe there would be a new tv series with new mecha like the gamma and hover cyclones. Over the next few years, there were the Legacy DVDs, comics, reissued comics, a game, MPCs, DYRL toys, various other toys, reissued novels, new version of the soundtrack, apparel, etc. Then there was Robotech Remastered, another game, a collectable card game, new versions of the reissued novels, Shadow Chronicles, announcement of Shadow Rising, the Live Action Movie, new MPCs, new toys, the 2nd Edition RPG, a new artbook, digital novels, a new soundtrack, Robotech Love Live Alive, etc.

The series became a movie, with its sequel waiting for the LAM which seems to be in development limbo. The new mecha was never used, instead there was super TNG mecha. When the Legacy DVDs were released the fans were told remastered wasn't possible, a couple of years later there's the remastered, extended edition with unnecessary gratuitous footage added, new openings based on the original Japanese series rather than the nostalgic and iconic Robotech open, and new sound effects that made the series sound completely different. The new comics steadily lost their readers after respectable beginning sales that were similar to the old comico comics in the 80s and competing comics of the time. After Preludes poor sales the monthly comics ended, the last TPB was canceled shortly before its release date. The reissued comico comics were canceled after the fourth volume, the MPCs were canceled after Maia's edition (the quality issues didn't help matters), the latest batch of DYRL toys have no release date, the battlepod releases were stretched out further and further apart with the Officer's battlepod that were originally supposed to come out early this year still promised but no release date, and the card game was canceled. There won't be a SC novel until SR comes out because its release isn't cost effective. Robotech Love Live Alive, a ova created out of 25 year old music video animation, was supposed to have been completed over the summer but has been pushed back a year. The 25th anniversary soundtrack is going to be at least two years late, and consumers can get the $99 srp re-release of the remastered, extended edition with new extras for $32.99 with free shipping. At least the rpg is moving again after a very long delay.

This year there was 1 rpg release, 1 battlepod variant toy, and the heavily discounted (67%) DVD re-release - were the digital novels released this year or last year? - almost seems like the 90's when the comics and rpg releases were the only thing keeping Robotech active. Naw, the franchise isn't floundering again after a brief revival of the early to mid 2000's, its all my imagination.

rtsurfer wrote:ESalter, my bad as the current Robotech franchise really did well this year with 1 rpg book (almost 3 years late), 1 variant toy (about 6 months late), and a re-release of the tv series on DVD with new extras that's already selling for 67% below srp after only 1 month on the market. Oh I forgot, there's supposed to be a cool calendar too.

That you follow each item with a criticism makes me believe you don't think the franchise did very well this year, and are being sarcastic. However, if you want to connect HG straying too close to the original series with an insufficient number of new Robotech items, you need more than a single data point. How many new items is HG required to approve to be "successful"? In what years was HG successful? In what years did HG "[try] to turn Robotech into something it never was"? Why do you think the lack of new items is due to HG straying too close to the original series?

rtsurfer wrote:"Nevertheless, the series became an enormous hit, leading the ratings in its timeslot in key metropolitan markets and spawning a line of best-selling comics, novels, and home videos as well as merchandise ranging from toys to music to apparel. America had never seen an animation quite like this." -AotSC

Is this quote in answer to my "heyday" questions? I am still curious about the answer to the first.

rtsurfer wrote:You got me, HG always has the Shadow Chronicles OVA that sold "gangbusters" and tons of SC merchandise like those awesome wallets.

I assume you mean you consider both the Shadow Chronicles movie and promotional wallets contemptible. Well, maybe, but what is this in reference to? This exchange:

ESalter wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:NOW that he's gone and the franchise appears to be floundering again...

How so?

? How would Macek's participation have improved Shadow Chronicles? Did Carl Macek truly reject promotional wallets?

rtsurfer wrote:What did I invent?

rtsurfer wrote:I suspect that if it fails he will be blamed and if it does well someone else will take most of the credit.
IMO, not only disrespectful but possibly hypocritical.

^ESalter, I'm not sure I necessarily agree with the connections you're trying to make or attribute to me. I was discussing different aspects of how HG has/is handling the franchise, and what I feel the current state of that franchise is. I doubt any single issue is responsible by itself, there are likely other issues that weren't raised here that are involved as well.
The reinvention and retconning of Robotech probably began with the rt.com era but definitely when HG released the remastered, extended edition in 2004 with the original Japanese series opening sequences.
We'll see if my supposition concerning who gets the credit or blame for Robotech Love Live Alive was correct or not next year, hopefully next year.

Why do you think the Robotech franchise is currently successful? When do you think the Robotech franchise was most successful? How would Macek's participation have improved or further hindered Shadow Chronicles? Did Carl Macek reject promotional wallets?

rtsurfer wrote:If Robotech merchandise were available at Walmart, Target, Kmart, etc it might not only be selling to the existing fanbase. If only there were new merchandise to sell in those store. "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride"

Oh, there's a much bigger "IF" condition here than either of those... namely, Robotech merchandise would only be carried by those stores if they thought there was a chance that someone would actually buy it. Let's not kid ourselves here, Robotech is such a niche title, even among anime hobbyists, that it has virtually no name recognition. People are far more likely to think of the brand of pool cleaning machines or the "adult novelty item" when you ask them if they know what "Robotech" is.

We find ourselves in a chicken-and-the-egg situation... sales would only improve once the merchandise is selling in retailers instead of only in direct sales, but retailers aren't going to want to carry merchandise so obscure that it only sells in direct sales.

rtsurfer wrote:In the early 2000's the fans were lead to believe there would be a new tv series with new mecha like the gamma and hover cyclones.

Okay, fairness... a lot of the leading was done by the fans themselves. "The blind leading the blind", as it were.

rtsurfer wrote:When the Legacy DVDs were released the fans were told remastered wasn't possible, a couple of years later there's the remastered, extended edition with unnecessary gratuitous footage added, new openings based on the original Japanese series rather than the nostalgic and iconic Robotech open[...]

Well, what else were they going to do for new features to justify ANOTHER re-release? The cut footage from the originals was about all they had left. It wasn't stuff they'd wanted to leave out originally either, it was stuff they were forced to cut to meet the broadcast rules back in the 80's.

rtsurfer wrote:The new comics steadily lost their readers after respectable beginning sales that were similar to the old comico comics in the 80s and competing comics of the time. After Preludes poor sales the monthly comics ended, the last TPB was canceled shortly before its release date. The reissued comico comics were canceled after the fourth volume, the MPCs were canceled after Maia's edition (the quality issues didn't help matters), the latest batch of DYRL toys have no release date, the battlepod releases were stretched out further and further apart with the Officer's battlepod that were originally supposed to come out early this year still promised but no release date, and the card game was canceled.

"What did you expect?"

Quite a bit of what you mentioned seems to have been planned on the expectation that the first part of the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles OVA (Ep.1) would be a success and achieve its primary aim of bringing new viewers into the fandom... something it failed to do. They overreached themselves, it's as simple as that. All told, slipping sales can, in part, be attributed to slipping interest among fans. There was a brief boom in 2001-2003, and from then on it's been one long, slow, backslide toward oblivion for Robotech.

rtsurfer wrote:Robotech Love Live Alive, a ova created out of 25 year old music video animation, was supposed to have been completed over the summer but has been pushed back a year.

If what we've heard from inside HG is true, this is because they can't find anyone willing to distribute it because they burned their bridges with FUNimation.

rtsurfer wrote:Naw, the franchise isn't floundering again after a brief revival of the early to mid 2000's, its all my imagination.

Oh, the franchise is floundering again... it's just that it's not floundering quite as badly or embarrassingly as it was back in the 90's.

rtsurfer wrote:^ESalter, I'm not sure I necessarily agree with the connections you're trying to make or attribute to me. I was discussing different aspects of how HG has/is handling the franchise, and what I feel the current state of that franchise is.

You were criticizing Harmony Gold, and I thought your arguments unclear.

rtsurfer wrote:I doubt any single issue is responsible by itself, there are likely other issues that weren't raised here that are involved as well.
The reinvention and retconning of Robotech probably began with the rt.com era but definitely when HG released the remastered, extended edition in 2004 with the original Japanese series opening sequences.

The reinvention and retconning of Robotech began during the writing of the original series, as new concepts were added mid-chapter.

rtsurfer wrote:We'll see if my supposition concerning who gets the credit or blame for Robotech Love Live Alive was correct or not next year, hopefully next year.

Why do you think the Robotech franchise is currently successful? When do you think the Robotech franchise was most successful?

I never said I thought the franchise was "successful." I don't know what that means, and I don't know that I care.

rtsurfer wrote:How would Macek's participation have improved or further hindered Shadow Chronicles?

IINM, he was a manager and idea man. His influence would have been greatest during "development hell," before Shadow Chronicles even was Shadow Chronicles; as such, I can't begin to guess.

rtsurfer wrote:Did Carl Macek reject promotional wallets?

Don't ask me; you brought it up.

ESalter wrote:Focusing on images consistent with the sheet:
Dana's often shows the notable crest (albeit raised more than it should). E.g. 12.
Enlisted often show proper ear pieces (e.g. 15).
19: Compare Dana's ears to the others.
40: Dana and Angie show proper chin and ear pieces.

As I have said before, it looks like color markings to me.

The only thing we see Dana's VHT have that is not shown on other VHTs where the Energy Rabit Ears (in "Half-Moon"), but there is no way to know for sure if other units have the ability or not since that is the only time we see them.

ESalter wrote:Clever; I'd been trying to think of a reason for the different Valkyrie head shapes. It still supports my point — a change in equipment is demonstrated by head appearance.

With the VF-1 there is a change in the head shape and additional equipment. The added equipment (specifically weapon systems, the D might have trainer related hardware) would require moving hardware around (which would require a new shape to boot).

Except the argument doesn't work when the ASC mecha (know of 2 mecha, 3 versions) recieved the Pupil Pistol, which is a change in equipment without changing the head. The show only shows the head of the Blue Beta, not the other Betas (including the shadow) which are mentioned to be identical except for color scheme (to match Alpha mate) and the Shadow Device (for the Shadow Version).

ESalter wrote:IINM, he was a manager and idea man. His influence would have been greatest during "development hell," before Shadow Chronicles even was Shadow Chronicles; as such, I can't begin to guess.

Carl Macek was, at least supposedly, kept at arm's length from any creative decisions made after he was replaced as creative director by Tommy Yune. That's why they made it into a huge deal when Harmony Gold invited him back in an advisory capacity, playing it off as this grand gesture for the incredibly anticlimactic 25th Anniversary tour. I don't believe that he had any actual input into Shadow Chronicles... his involvement was pretty much that of a spokesman from 2000 on.

ShadowLogan wrote:With the VF-1 there is a change in the head shape and additional equipment. The added equipment (specifically weapon systems, the D might have trainer related hardware) would require moving hardware around (which would require a new shape to boot).

Rather more than that, really... the official source material does suggest that the changes between head types aren't limited to just cosmetic differences and armament, though they don't really go into scads of detail. Obviously, the different designs of a Valkyrie's monitor turret typically (but not always) betoken a change in the contents of the monitor turret itself rather than the rest of the aircraft.

ShadowLogan wrote:Except the argument doesn't work when the ASC mecha (know of 2 mecha, 3 versions) recieved the Pupil Pistol, which is a change in equipment without changing the head.

Granted, but in keeping with the above point... is the "pupil pistol" system something that'd necessitate a change in the monitor turret? Based on the way it's described and the way it operates in the show, I would have to say "No". It works from the existing monitor feeds in the mecha, and operates on the pilot's responses to the images displayed on the screens in the cockpit.

ShadowLogan wrote:The show only shows the head of the Blue Beta, not the other Betas (including the shadow) which are mentioned to be identical except for color scheme (to match Alpha mate) and the Shadow Device (for the Shadow Version).

With good reason too... in keeping with the original source material, there was only ever a single variant of the TREAD/TLEAD ("Beta") produced. As the Shadow Chronicles OVA has showed us, the shadow technology retrofit does not actually necessitate changing the monitor turret design... courtesy of Maia's VF/A-6ZX.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Rather more than that, really... the official source material does suggest that the changes between head types aren't limited to just cosmetic differences and armament, though they don't really go into scads of detail. Obviously, the different designs of a Valkyrie's monitor turret typically (but not always) betoken a change in the contents of the monitor turret itself rather than the rest of the aircraft.

Well I'm going off the stats in the RPG, where the units are basically identical in capabilities outside the mentioned weapon systems in most cases (Cmd/EW variants having more).

Seto Kaiba wrote:Granted, but in keeping with the above point... is the "pupil pistol" system something that'd necessitate a change in the monitor turret? Based on the way it's described and the way it operates in the show, I would have to say "No". It works from the existing monitor feeds in the mecha, and operates on the pilot's responses to the images displayed on the screens in the cockpit.

Was painting an overly broadbrush with any equipment changes necesitating a new head, regardless if the new equipment was in the head proper.

The Pupil Pistol did have hardware associated with it ("complex circuit design" is mentioned IIRC by Cromwell), where it ended up in the mecha isn't really said. Where ever it ended up it isn't in the cockpit since Louie didn't just pull it out (unless he wasn't thinking completely straight, which is possible since he decieded to use a "flame thrower" on his VHT). Brown mentions it was intergrated into the mecha, so the exact location is probably unknown.

Seto Kaiba wrote:With good reason too... in keeping with the original source material, there was only ever a single variant of the TREAD/TLEAD ("Beta") produced. As the Shadow Chronicles OVA has showed us, the shadow technology retrofit does not actually necessitate changing the monitor turret design... courtesy of Maia's VF/A-6ZX.

That almost sounds like the Shadow Beta relies on the Shadow Alpha for it's stealth in either continuity. Or are the Shadow/Dark systems supposed to be a Block upgrade instead of a model letter upgrade?

ShadowLogan wrote:

ESalter wrote:Focusing on images consistent with the sheet:
Dana's often shows the notable crest (albeit raised more than it should). E.g. 12.
Enlisted often show proper ear pieces (e.g. 15).
19: Compare Dana's ears to the others.
40: Dana and Angie show proper chin and ear pieces.

As I have said before, it looks like color markings to me.

Note how the ear in 15 is a smooth piece. Compare that to the indented structures in 40.

^I believe all three VHT head variants show up in the animation although as those caps show it can be difficult to tell and they're apparently not consistent.
3 heads in OSM
3 heads in cgi by Brian Denmeade/Brian3D

ShadowLogan wrote:Well I'm going off the stats in the RPG, where the units are basically identical in capabilities outside the mentioned weapon systems in most cases (Cmd/EW variants having more).

As you know, I'd consider it generally inadvisable to use the RPG as a reference for the Robotech series itself, since it still has that unpleasant habit of going off and doing its own thing even though Tommy is supposedly vetting it. The VF-1R variant, for instance, has the same performance as a regular VF-1 in canon, but IIRC is supposedly around 25% faster in its RPG stats.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Pupil Pistol did have hardware associated with it ("complex circuit design" is mentioned IIRC by Cromwell), where it ended up in the mecha isn't really said. Where ever it ended up it isn't in the cockpit since Louie didn't just pull it out (unless he wasn't thinking completely straight, which is possible since he decieded to use a "flame thrower" on his VHT). Brown mentions it was intergrated into the mecha, so the exact location is probably unknown.

If we were talking about a fighter, the logical place for it would be somewhere in the avionics bay with the rest of the fire control system. Since this is a tank, presumably it's installed wherever the Spartas keeps its fire control system. It uses existing camera inputs though, so a new head shouldn't be necessary, just the complex circuit design(s) necessary for the system to process user responses to the monitor input.

ShadowLogan wrote:That almost sounds like the Shadow Beta relies on the Shadow Alpha for it's stealth in either continuity. Or are the Shadow/Dark systems supposed to be a Block upgrade instead of a model letter upgrade?

It's certainly possible, and would explain why there's only one "shadow field" gauge shown for a combiner on the Shadow fighter's cockpit instrumentation. All told, it'd be more consistent with the OSM for each craft's stealth features to be independent, since the original (both in RT and GCM) was a design change in the mecha's generator rather than an ersatz cloaking device.

I found an interesting Image..... http://oi43.tinypic.com/2cohcte.jpg
its an Image of the Alpha Fighter with its arms out in "jet" mode... but no legs to make it full guardian...

And I've seen an image of the Alpha with its legs extended while its arms are still folded up on top of its hull. Not to mention its ability to transform directly from jet to battloid, as demonstrated when it's mated with a Beta. Yeah; I can definitely understand why the UEEF replaced the Valkyrie transformation sequence with the Alpha.

Seto Kaiba wrote:The VF-1R variant, for instance, has the same performance as a regular VF-1 in canon, but IIRC is supposedly around 25% faster in its RPG stats.

But this isn't the only place we see the -1R with different performance ("Battlecry" videogame has each VF-1 model with different attribute values).

Basically I think it's just TY/HG not being consistant again.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Since this is a tank, presumably it's installed wherever the Spartas keeps its fire control system.

But as I said we don't know where they put the system, it could have been in the head for all we know.

Seto Kaiba wrote:It's certainly possible, and would explain why there's only one "shadow field" gauge shown for a combiner on the Shadow fighter's cockpit instrumentation. All told, it'd be more consistent with the OSM for each craft's stealth features to be independent, since the original (both in RT and GCM) was a design change in the mecha's generator rather than an ersatz cloaking device.

The field gauge may apply to both units when connected.

Agree that each platform should have independent stealth features, but once connected if one looses the "stealth" it will for all practical purposes make the other "appear" until they seperate.

With "field" effect instead of the prior conceptulizations on how the system worked, it does open the possibility of extending the "shield" to protect other nearby platforms (like a connected Beta). Which makes it more of a bio-emulator acting as a "jammer" than "homing device".

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I found an interesting Image..... http://oi43.tinypic.com/2cohcte.jpg
its an Image of the Alpha Fighter with its arms out in "jet" mode... but no legs to make it full guardian...

"Paper Hero" at the end of the opening combat scene. Certainly opens the door for interesting configurations with other Veritechs. The VF-1 is to limited to pull that off easily (though it does adopt a similiar layout w/o a mode change in Ep2 and could be what we are really seeing here), but the other full-size VTs could certainly pull off something like that.

dataweaver wrote:And I've seen an image of the Alpha with its legs extended while its arms are still folded up on top of its hull. Not to mention its ability to transform directly from jet to battloid, as demonstrated when it's mated with a Beta. Yeah; I can definitely understand why the UEEF replaced the Valkyrie transformation sequence with the Alpha.

1. That would be "Birthday Blues" IINM

2. Not really. It still passes through gaurdian mode.

3. They didn't just replace the Valkyrie transformation sequence with the Alpha's, you have the Logan/Beta (pretty similiar really), the VHTs, the AGAC, and Cyclone. The only units that might still use it would be the VF-2/3/4 (maybe 5 if you don't consider the nt-Condor coming from the VF-5 program), though given RT's varied appraoch with VTs its possible these use their own unique thing or similiar to the another unit.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I found an interesting Image..... http://oi43.tinypic.com/2cohcte.jpg
its an Image of the Alpha Fighter with its arms out in "jet" mode... but no legs to make it full guardian...

IIRC that image is actually taking place in mid transformation....

ShadowLogan wrote:
3. They didn't just replace the Valkyrie transformation sequence with the Alpha's, you have the Logan/Beta (pretty similiar really), the VHTs, the AGAC, and Cyclone. The only units that might still use it would be the VF-2/3/4 (maybe 5 if you don't consider the nt-Condor coming from the VF-5 program), though given RT's varied appraoch with VTs its possible these use their own unique thing or similiar to the another unit.

Actually the 4 is VERY differfent than the VF-1. It has to be due to the location of the legs and arms in the engine nacelles....In non Robotech the VF-11 is slightly different but similar to teh VF-1 but I believe all VF's aside from that used significantly different transformation sequences.

jaymz wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I found an interesting Image..... http://oi43.tinypic.com/2cohcte.jpg
its an Image of the Alpha Fighter with its arms out in "jet" mode... but no legs to make it full guardian...

IIRC that image is actually taking place in mid transformation....

nope, iv'e rewtached the scene several times, and its hovering there wiht its arms out, then the arms go back in.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I found an interesting Image..... http://oi43.tinypic.com/2cohcte.jpg
its an Image of the Alpha Fighter with its arms out in "jet" mode... but no legs to make it full guardian...

IIRC that image is actually taking place in mid transformation....

nope, iv'e rewtached the scene several times, and its hovering there wiht its arms out, then the arms go back in.

Personally I would call that a screw up then but thats just me

jaymz wrote:
Personally I would call that a screw up then but thats just me

the Arm-less guardian mode shows up several times in the show too...