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Colonel Wolfe wrote:

jaymz wrote:
Personally I would call that a screw up then but thats just me

the Arm-less guardian mode shows up several times in the show too...

I can 'buy' the arm less guardian mode Alpha as a VTOL landing configuration. We see the VF-1's do the same thing.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I found an interesting Image..... http://oi43.tinypic.com/2cohcte.jpg
its an Image of the Alpha Fighter with its arms out in "jet" mode... but no legs to make it full guardian...

IIRC that image is actually taking place in mid transformation....

nope, iv'e rewtached the scene several times, and its hovering there wiht its arms out, then the arms go back in.

The Alpha legs are swept back and obsucured from view adopting a F-mode like position?


Much like the VF-1 did in Ep2 with the VT-1D.

jaymz wrote:Actually the 4 is VERY differfent than the VF-1. It has to be due to the location of the legs and arms in the engine nacelles....In non Robotech the VF-11 is slightly different but similar to teh VF-1 but I believe all VF's aside from that used significantly different transformation sequences.

Okay we can take the VF-4 off the list.

dataweaver wrote:And I've seen an image of the Alpha with its legs extended while its arms are still folded up on top of its hull.

Um... this isn't a feature unique to the Alpha. We had a discussion about this earlier on in this thread, IIRC, about whether the "Armless Guardian" seen on the VF-1 and Alpha was a separate mode. (Survey says "No, it isn't.")

dataweaver wrote:Not to mention its ability to transform directly from jet to battloid, as demonstrated when it's mated with a Beta.

It's actually still going through the same transformation sequence it normally does, it's just anchored in place on a different axis, so it looks a bit different.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:The VF-1R variant, for instance, has the same performance as a regular VF-1 in canon, but IIRC is supposedly around 25% faster in its RPG stats.

But this isn't the only place we see the -1R with different performance ("Battlecry" videogame has each VF-1 model with different attribute values).

Yeah, and there are explanations of the different attribute values in the manual too, but its canon status is dubious/uncertain. A fair bit of it, esp. speed, isn't supported by the canon stats.

ShadowLogan wrote:Basically I think it's just TY/HG not being consistant again.

Possibly, but I'm more inclined to suspect that Robotech isn't entirely sure how to go about treating the canon status of its video games, and even in a canon game it's rare for aspects of the game engine itself to be made canon. (For example, if we were to use the Macross approach to it, the variances in maneuverability/speed/targeting/etc. would likely not be canon, and the sniper mode definitely wouldn't.)

ShadowLogan wrote:But as I said we don't know where they put the system, it could have been in the head for all we know.

It could be, but since ease of access would be paramount for FCS maintenance, keeping it out in the head would be fairly counterproductive. We've seen that removing the monitor camera on the head isn't enough to disable a mecha normally, but it would be if it lost its fire control computer as well.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:Basically I think it's just TY/HG not being consistant again.

Possibly, but I'm more inclined to suspect that Robotech isn't entirely sure how to go about treating the canon status of its video games, and even in a canon game it's rare for aspects of the game engine itself to be made canon. (For example, if we were to use the Macross approach to it, the variances in maneuverability/speed/targeting/etc. would likely not be canon, and the sniper mode definitely wouldn't.)

This is what Tom Bateman said about Battlecry back in 2003, "(Certain elements of ROBOTECH : BATTLECRY also fall within this realm [canon and official], but since the video game is different every time you play it, it would be hard to establish any of Jack Archer's adventures as being "definitive".)"

Seto Kaiba wrote:Possibly, but I'm more inclined to suspect that Robotech isn't entirely sure how to go about treating the canon status of its video games, and even in a canon game it's rare for aspects of the game engine itself to be made canon. (For example, if we were to use the Macross approach to it, the variances in maneuverability/speed/targeting/etc. would likely not be canon, and the sniper mode definitely wouldn't.)

While I agree that they shouldn't use specific values from an attribute of a given game engine (be in Video/Computer, RPG, Mini's, etc), the basic idea going into the attribute being different than other models should be justifiable w/n cannon.

I would look at the sniper mode as existing, but operating differently than done in game. The VF-1 did have telescopic cameras afterall, from there it is merely linking the movement of the gun to the telescopic camera. The "charged" shot doesn't exist obviously.

Seto Kaiba wrote:It could be, but since ease of access would be paramount for FCS maintenance, keeping it out in the head would be fairly counterproductive. We've seen that removing the monitor camera on the head isn't enough to disable a mecha normally, but it would be if it lost its fire control computer as well.

Since the VHT head is only easily accessible (visiably) in Battloid mode, it stands to reason that maintance on the head can still be done in alt-modes.

I don't recall a VHT taking a headshot and still being operational. The only human mecha that come to mind with head damages are Rick's -1J lost his head cameras to Breetai (in Blindgame), Ben's -1A (also Blindgame), and Rook's -6Z lost it's cameras to a Invid Scout ("Big Apple", IIRC). But these units are physically bigger than a VHT so have more room in the torso to put things.

rtsurfer wrote:This is what Tom Bateman said about Battlecry back in 2003, "(Certain elements of ROBOTECH : BATTLECRY also fall within this realm [canon and official], but since the video game is different every time you play it, it would be hard to establish any of Jack Archer's adventures as being "definitive".)"

Understandably so, since there's at least a little narrative latitude taken with events in the game. The one thing from the game that we can say is canon and/or official with absolute certainty is the YF-1R/VF-1R, which has been included in the Infopedia and appeared in at least one issue of the new comics.

ShadowLogan wrote:While I agree that they shouldn't use specific values from an attribute of a given game engine (be in Video/Computer, RPG, Mini's, etc), the basic idea going into the attribute being different than other models should be justifiable w/n cannon.

But, as I've illustrated, it isn't... the variances in top speed, etc. listed in the game and in the game's manual aren't borne out by the official stats for the mecha.

ShadowLogan wrote:I would look at the sniper mode as existing, but operating differently than done in game. The VF-1 did have telescopic cameras afterall, from there it is merely linking the movement of the gun to the telescopic camera. The "charged" shot doesn't exist obviously.

Well, at the risk of puncturing your enthusiasm slightly, a large-bore rotary cannon isn't a weapon whose characteristics are suited to high-accuracy marksmanship. Rotary cannon weapons are designed not to kill with a single, accurate shot, but rather by putting a fair quantity of high-powered rounds onto the target as quickly as possible. (Quantity, more than quality.)

(The manual describes the "charged shot" as being overspinning the gun's barrels such that the "sniper shot" is five rounds released at such a high rate of fire that they appear to be a single shot.)

ShadowLogan wrote:Since the VHT head is only easily accessible (visiably) in Battloid mode, it stands to reason that maintance on the head can still be done in alt-modes.

Possible, but not necessarily true.

Seto Kaiba wrote:But, as I've illustrated, it isn't... the variances in top speed, etc. listed in the game and in the game's manual aren't borne out by the official stats for the mecha.

I agree with you that that stats should be based on the official stats. Isn't it possible that the official stats changed, but the infopedia hasn't been updated to reflect that. Its not like site maintainance of the infopedia is on the top of their to do list.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Well, at the risk of puncturing your enthusiasm slightly, a large-bore rotary cannon isn't a weapon whose characteristics are suited to high-accuracy marksmanship. Rotary cannon weapons are designed not to kill with a single, accurate shot, but rather by putting a fair quantity of high-powered rounds onto the target as quickly as possible. (Quantity, more than quality.)

True the weapon isn't ideal for sniping, I was going for using telescoptic sights to aim (which is a sniper trait).

EDIT:

Seto Kaiba wrote:Oh, there's a much bigger "IF" condition here than either of those... namely, Robotech merchandise would only be carried by those stores if they thought there was a chance that someone would actually buy it. Let's not kid ourselves here, Robotech is such a niche title, even among anime hobbyists, that it has virtually no name recognition. People are far more likely to think of the brand of pool cleaning machines or the "adult novelty item" when you ask them if they know what "Robotech" is.

We find ourselves in a chicken-and-the-egg situation... sales would only improve once the merchandise is selling in retailers instead of only in direct sales, but retailers aren't going to want to carry merchandise so obscure that it only sells in direct sales.

I don't know about the merchandisers not wanting to carrying obscure items. I wanted to reply to this earlier, but also wanted to check in stores. Stores do sometimes carry less recognizable lines that are "knockoffs" of other lines.

As a "knockoff" RT can potentially cater to "Star Wars" (aliens, spaceships, etc), "Transformers" (transforming robots and vehicles), and "G.I. Joe" (action figures and vehicles) type toylines (like they did w/matchbox in the 80s and ExoSquad in the 90s).

Though I don't think HG would go for it w/o a partner...

ShadowLogan wrote:I agree with you that that stats should be based on the official stats. Isn't it possible that the official stats changed, but the infopedia hasn't been updated to reflect that. Its not like site maintainance of the infopedia is on the top of their to do list.

Why the heck do we keep coming back to this idea that "the thing I want to be true is true, they just haven't updated the Infopedia yet" is in any way valid? We know for a fact that's not the case, because they HAVE been making updates to the Infopedia. Just because the updates haven't included certain aspects of the RPG doesn't mean they're not really making updates, it means that stuff ain't canon.

ShadowLogan wrote:True the weapon isn't ideal for sniping, I was going for using telescoptic sights to aim (which is a sniper trait).

Which pretty much puts paid to the idea of sniper mode, since there's no weapon that the VF-1 in Robotech can take that's actually suitable for the sniper role. Moreover, IMO the whole idea of a giant robot sniper is kind of silly, since the goal of a sniper is to do the deed without being seen, and there are few things that stand out quite as much as a 12m tall robot.

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't know about the merchandisers not wanting to carrying obscure items. I wanted to reply to this earlier, but also wanted to check in stores. Stores do sometimes carry less recognizable lines that are "knockoffs" of other lines.

Even then, they're usually knockoffs of something recognizable... Robotech isn't just old, obscure, and generally unsuccessful with toys and most other merchandise, it's also a property whose existing merchandise lines aren't exactly stellar performers either, so there isn't much incentive for any stores outside "specialty" outfits to carry RT merch, and even then most of them would probably rather stock higher-quality Japanese imports stuff from the original shows, since much of the Robotech stuff is also so pricey (because cost ends up being amortized over fewer units) that it goes a long way toward evening out the expense of importing the higher-quality goods from overseas.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Even then, they're usually knockoffs of something recognizable... Robotech isn't just old, obscure, and generally unsuccessful with toys and most other merchandise, it's also a property whose existing merchandise lines aren't exactly stellar performers either, so there isn't much incentive for any stores outside "specialty" outfits to carry RT merch, and even then most of them would probably rather stock higher-quality Japanese imports stuff from the original shows, since much of the Robotech stuff is also so pricey (because cost ends up being amortized over fewer units) that it goes a long way toward evening out the expense of importing the higher-quality goods from overseas.

The existing merchandise lines are geared toward an overly specific market which necessitates a high price tag for a short product run. I am not suggesting they use this line to get into the mass market stores (Kmart, Walmat, Shopko, Target, etc) as it is more geared toward the speciality hobby shops.

I am suggesting re-creating something like the matchbox line from the 80s (or playmate from the 90s) to go after the average consumer not the high priced specialty fan market to get into the mass market stores. At that point they would be in the knockoff/clone area of merchandise with traits from more recognizable products like "Star Wars", "Transformers", and "G.I. Joe". Likely won't see material like this until the LA movie OR a TV series comes out, neither of which I expect to happen anytime soon.

ShadowLogan wrote:The existing merchandise lines are geared toward an overly specific market which necessitates a high price tag for a short product run.

It's geared towards an overly-specific market for a reason... namely, that the series is a virtual nonentity. Apart from the active fanbase and the Macross and BattleTech fans who've been screwed by Robotech's owners, almost nobody even remembers the Robotech series. The merchandise is geared toward the only group of people who are even remotely inclined to buy it: die-hard Robotech fans.

Trying to cash in via "knockoff" sales isn't exactly the kind of thing that's likely to build the brand or paint a picture of it as a viable and vibrantly active property... and it'd be rather unhelpful to the oft-argued point that Robotech itself is a "knockoff" of a much more successful series.


(In short, it might boost sales in the short term, but it's ultimately counterproductive to what they want to do with the series.)

Gryphon wrote:Guys, this is sort of between the two of you at this point, any chance you can take it off line in PMs and maybe get back on point a bit here?

There's more involvement than that, but it is actually relevant to the topic as a quasi-tangential aspect of the whole "Why don't they use X to flesh out Robotech" thing... specifically relating to Roger Harkavy's original plan to have the Imai Files published by HG as a Robotech art book.

Gryphon wrote:Preferably before they close this thread using the "Its just two repeated opinions arguments."?

Nah, if the mods actually applied that logic as a rule, they'd have been obliged to shut this whole section down a LONG time ago... or at least every thread relating to Robotech.

There's actual discussion going on here, actual civil discussion... it's not just two or three people talking past each other like it is in the threads the mods close down and/or delete.

Seto Kaiba wrote:In short, it might boost sales in the short term, but it's ultimately counterproductive to what they want to do with the series.)

I don't think we'll see this type of product until something like the LA movie OR a TV series gets picked up.

The only way we might see it before is if HG finds a parnter in the deal. Given their ability to find & hold partners for the DVDs, it could filter over into other areas.

In either case this type of line will be a short term boost in sales w/o some type of effort for sustainment. And that I think would require more effort than they are willing/able to put into the franchise (sp) to be perfectly honest.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Trying to cash in via "knockoff" sales isn't exactly the kind of thing that's likely to build the brand or paint a picture of it as a viable and vibrantly active property...

Still if they want to make RT an attractive property they have to start somewhere other than selling to the hardcore fanbase. And they can't do that with repackaging of an existing product w/some small NEW bits/revisions.

ShadowLogan wrote: And they can't do that with repackaging of an existing product w/some small NEW bits/revisions.

Then someone should REALLY tell them to STOP doing just that since that is all they have done SINCE TSC came out what 5 years ago now? Their newest thing is an anniversary calendar (anniversary of WHAT who the hell knows) and a cd ep with some remixes of songs from the series that people more than likely already have in some fashion....oh and they rereleased TSC AGAIN a couple of months ago in Mexico or somesuch.......

ShadowLogan wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:In short, it might boost sales in the short term, but it's ultimately counterproductive to what they want to do with the series.)

I don't think we'll see this type of product until something like the LA movie OR a TV series gets picked up.

Very probably... though that means that we're in for quite a wait, with the live-action movie stalled (seemingly indefinitely) in the early phases of pre-production and the prospect of a future television series effectively quashed by Harmony Gold's "we'll only start development if a network gives us an episode commitment first" policy.

ShadowLogan wrote:The only way we might see it before is if HG finds a parnter in the deal. Given their ability to find & hold partners for the DVDs, it could filter over into other areas.

Really, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here or not... Harmony Gold has had absolutely lousy luck with partners, which has ranged from simply unpleasant (FUNimation) to downright catastrophic for their plans (Revell, Cannon Films, Toynami).

jaymz wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote: And they can't do that with repackaging of an existing product w/some small NEW bits/revisions.

Then someone should REALLY tell them to STOP doing just that since that is all they have done SINCE TSC came out what 5 years ago now? Their newest thing is an anniversary calendar (anniversary of WHAT who the hell knows) and a cd ep with some remixes of songs from the series that people more than likely already have in some fashion....oh and they rereleased TSC AGAIN a couple of months ago in Mexico or somesuch.......

Well, that's just Harmony Gold senior management's mentality at work... they don't see Robotech as a viable property or something worth spending more than the bare minimum on, so re-releasing old products with whatever new features they can scrape together on the cheap is all they can really do. Tommy's hands are tied by the budget he's given to work with and/or what he can get his bosses to sign off on. If things are REALLY going to change, he needs to get his bosses to be upbeat about Robotech's prospects and give him a little more latitude. It's why I think they're deliberately trying to stifle him and the series, in favor of hoping Warner Bros will buy the whole lot from them.