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i'm not entirely certain "not summoning demons" is going to prevent them from being a force for pure evil. if it was for moral reasons, sure, but it's pretty much entirely out of a hatred for non-humans, and hatred for magic. if hatred and/or fear is your motivation for doing something, even if that something is nominally "good", it doesn't really count as a good act. you're not so much choosing a good act, as you are choosing to avoid the thing you feared.

i mean, i bet you could say about most demons that they won't walk up to one of the gods of light alone and slap them across the face. not attacking the gods of light is probably a good act... but the only reason the demon won't do that is fear. they're not making that choice because it's good, they're making that choice because they're afraid of the consequences.

They don't summon demons because they're an inhuman evil and as such demons are rightfully feared, even other demons fear demons. The decision to not use that power, add in fact, seeing use of said power as a motivation for annihilating others who may be in league with them, is still not a good thing.

But annihilation of demon kind wherever they may hide, rather than enslaving their power to your will, is much closer to good.

Korcheski wrote:I saw there was a pretty big posting from 5 years ago, and as I am getting back in Rifts, this is a topic I am going to be visiting in my new campaign.

So when I was younger and played Rifts, the Coalition States were pretty much always a bad guy in our storyline. Our band of mix magic/technology and human/D-bees were warriors of the light, and we fought evil and oppression where ever we found it. The CS was the embodiment of this evil. Not only did we never work for them, we actively worked to overthrow them and institute a newer, friendlier government. However this was from the perspectives of 14-18 year olds.

As I am much older now and a former Army solider, I have to say I look at the CS much differently. I don’t see them as the bad guys, for the world is not black and white. There are sure some very evil people running the CS, and their policies on magic and D-bees is very harsh if not overly aggressive. But as a whole the world seems a much better place because of the CS from a human perspective. The CS is the only reason why humans actively have a fighting chance on North America. No other city/nation has the sheer resources to actively protect large groups of humans from multiple threats.

The books note that at the lowest, only 10% of the human population survived the coming of the Rifts…not just on North America but all over the world. Think about that from our world. What would you do if all you knew was destroyed and human life was on the verge of total extinction. Then combine that with a group of people who don’t care about your race, religion, etc. and just want to make sure you as a human have a fighting chance. How really bad is that? In 109 PA the human populations are not sitting comfortably and all the old threats exist with many many many new ones.

I would love to see the storyline progress with the CS becoming a little more tolerant, accepting magic and some inhuman allies. However if I was living as a human in the world of Rifts, I would be very glad the CS existed. They are bullies at time, but in dark times for humans that is what you need. I know from other posts they play the CS as utterly devoid of any remorse as they kill any and all who oppose them, and that is a shame. If humans are ever going to solidify their place back on Earth, they need the CS to do it.

So essentially your saying, and I realize that if it hasn't been done in this thread already that this is Godwin's law, that the NAZI ruling party in Germany are bad but the people are not. I agree with that. I'd go so far as to say the ruling class of the CS wasn't bad... IF they didn't intend to keep their population ignorant through illiteracy, lies and killing others who come in contact with the truth. The defenders of humanity should defend humanity regardless of what dimension or powers they possess. The champions of humanity should be all about elevating humanity and a large part of that is education in facts not state propaganda an education not an indoctrination.

I agree, Zer0 Kay. They should, but they don't, so they're a bad guy, and not humanity's moral champion. Which is really too bad, because skull armor is pretty cool.

The deepest Irony here?
Look at the major human powers that could claim the title of 'defenders of humanity'
Its the NGR and the Japanese nations, where as the CS is openly evil, England is a pawn of evil, Australia is again evil.....
The Axis powers are the good guys and the Allied Powers are the bad guys.
I guess the coming of the rifts really did turn everything on its head.

Alrik Vas wrote:They don't summon demons because they're an inhuman evil and as such demons are rightfully feared, even other demons fear demons. The decision to not use that power, add in fact, seeing use of said power as a motivation for annihilating others who may be in league with them, is still not a good thing.

But annihilation of demon kind wherever they may hide, rather than enslaving their power to your will, is much closer to good.

What about Karl Prosek and his demon spawn? both look human but could be considered an inhuman evil. They'd be willing to res... clone Hitler, Nero, Manson and any other evil human being if they thought it would give them an advantage and most humans consider them inhuman evil. The reason they don't summon demons, devils or any other evil thing that is not of the human species isn't because it is an inhuman or rather non-human species evil is because of their species. Heck they wouldn't even summon a human from a different dimension reguarleas of moral standing because their definition of human is so narrow.

To put it a different way they view an evil demon the same as they view an evil dragon they wouldn't summon either right? So if your theory is right and their "goodness" is proclaimed by their unwillingness to summon an evil demon then so to must it be for an evil dragon (anyone see where I'm going with this?) so then their goodness should also be proclaimed by summoning a good dragon... oh Wai they'd never do that. Why? Because of its species. It has nothing to do with it being good or evil. They'd never call on the gods of light either, because they're not human. If Karl was able to elevate himself to godhood (would that make him the god emperor? ) his son would probably declare him a heretic and put him down.

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree, Zer0 Kay. They should, but they don't, so they're a bad guy, and not humanity's moral champion. Which is really too bad, because skull armor is pretty cool.

Yes it is but shiney armor armor is heroic and I'm sure that is why the GB is the shiniest of them all because KS was trying to make a knight in America, surprised he didn't originally limit it to a heavy suit for the CKs.

eliakon wrote:The deepest Irony here?
Look at the major human powers that could claim the title of 'defenders of humanity'
Its the NGR and the Japanese nations, where as the CS is openly evil, England is a pawn of evil, Australia is again evil.....
The Axis powers are the good guys and the Allied Powers are the bad guys.
I guess the coming of the rifts really did turn everything on its head.

Dang it, your gonna make me have ta crack Oz again.

flatline wrote:Betterment" implies that the CS is somehow improving humankind which is clearly not the case.

The CS is able to extend human life spans with their medical tech, that sounds like improvement to me.

Plus you have Desmond Bradford (CS citizen) making the Psi-X aliens, which in some respects are better than us.

The CS are also bettering humanity through training and tech, making us more powerful and able to survive.

eliakon wrote:2) The CS battle plan was a massive nuclear strike it was not some rouge generals plan

Which page of which book are you relying on here?

I want to know if you are remembering something which is definitely not Salt's Folly or the shield-proving that occurred a year later.

eliakon wrote:They are not trying to 'preserve humanity' in the slightest. They are trying to 'preserve the CS Empire for the glory of the CS'

They're trying to do both, and I don't know if there is any basis for us to judge that one is a priority over the other.

The CS has allied with and has aided other human nations outside of its empire, but it is difficult to know whether to view that as aiding humanity or self-preservation.

eliakon wrote:Stuff other than 'you can rot in our burbs with no protection unless you serve as expendable cannon fodder for our wars of conquest and extermination'

Yet even if the CS does not directly try to protect D-Bees in the 'Burbs, and even runs some purges, many still flock there because it is safer and better for their livelihood to do so, so they benefit from CS help indirectly, so it is a net good effect.

Nightmask wrote:there's zero heroism on the part of the CS it's all about ensuring their own survival

Please explain the SAMAS squadron saving Tarn and the random village she was in from the Lorica Wraith Pirate Squad then.

Nightmask wrote:the genocide of all non-humans

The CS love Psi-Hounds and (actual, not dragon) kittens so clearly this is false.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:there's 50+ books for rifts, but what is a Slurmph? And where did the CS kill 'Hundreds of thousands" of them? I don't remember that. What book is it in and where?

WB30 (D-Bees of North America) page 190.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:they're taking in humans NOT of the CS, training them, arming them and fighting against the Demons. MILLIONS of them. No other nation on earth has done that.

NGR hasn't processed that much? Everyone else is under 2 mil?

eliakon wrote:officially the CS is a coalition, it is not a central government in Chi-Town....or it wasn't

I don't know if Kev/Palladium has been entirely conssitent about the formation of the CS.

WB11-CWCp20 "When the Federation of Magic invaded Chi-Town in 12 P.A., CS society was forever transformed .." and "Prior to thate fateful event, the CS Military .."

This suggests the Coalition States existed prior to 12 PA. Which fits well with: WB16-FoMp9 "the formation of the Coalition States in One P.A"

But then in Coalition Wars: Siege on Tolkeen Book 1: Sedition page 98 says that the Coalition States is proposed in 31 PA and becomes a reality in 33 PA...

However earlier in Sedition, the language used doesn't reflect this. 12 PA's Bloody Campaign refers to "The Coalition, meanwhile" and "Coalition practitioners of magic".

You could of course distinguish between "The Coalition" and "Coalition States" having different meanings. The statement "to this day, secretly using magic in support of the Coalition States" under 12 PA (and later "the CS" twice) is fine since it is referring to the future.

Part of the problem with the Crisis Timeline from 96 on is that what is supposed to be a period-specific timeline is littered with a bunch of discussion of future influences, so future-based terminology litters discussion of a past where the terms supposedly did not exist yet, as of the SoT retcon of the CS establishment date.

25PA (Sedition98) refers to Chairman Prosek establishing an "arm of the CS Military" ... 8 years before the CS is formed. Wut? So what was it called at the time?

So... yeah I figure I can't rely on any consistency considering the CS' birth just got chucked 32 years into the future. I blame Temporal Demons.

eliakon wrote:They take over a territory, over throw its government and then say 'we will take all your resources, we will destroy those who were protecting you before.....but we will not take you." Yeah, that is evil.

Take OVER or take BACK? These lands belonged to humanity, even if other humans are living on them, what gives them the authority to give the human birthright away to aliens and nexus-destabilizing Shifters?

eliakon wrote:Since we see a LOT of examples of humanity surviving, not as slaves, on Rifts Earth that are not evil genocidal empires then I think we can pretty safely rule out the need to be an evil empire to survive.

What one needs to do to survive depends on where one is. What humans blessed with a mobile fortress like the Ticonderoga need to do to live may not be as extreme as what land-bound humans in the heart of America need to do to live.

I would again insist on a "CS versus X" series of threads comparing other places where normal humans live and our speculation about their comparative quality of life.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:at the tail end it says over the decades they've killed 'hundreds of thousands' of them. I chalk it up to an artifact. A editing mistake if nothing else. The entirety of the US isn't covered by giant anthropomorphic slug creatures sliming up the place

I don't see why we should view this as an editing mistake.

If not for CS efforts there clearly would have been these guys sliming up the place, displacing humans and other species who couldn't compete with them. We have the CS to thank for defending Humanity against the Slurmph incursions.

Adult and human-raised Slurmphs might well be nice and do farming and sell food to humans, but I can't plausibly see them doing this as youths. Slurmphs do not raise their young, they abandon them, and there is no mention of them reuniting, so unless they spontaneously get OCCs out of thin air, they must've been domesticated by other species. Those who do not may go on eating rampages and encounter the CS who defend their farmlands.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Like many many MANY times in Palladium books the left hand has very little knowledge of what the right hand is doing

The Slurmph section says "by Brandon Aten and Kevin Siembieda" which indicates Kev had a look over this and approved the CS having killed loads of them.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:there's been no indication anywhere Of a pandemic of giant walking slimy slugs invading the US to the tune of 'hundreds of thousands' of them

There doesn't need to be. Considering how small they are as youths, if the CS kills them while they are young, this would pass right under the radar. I expect this is 95% of their kills. Adult Slurmphs would be smart enough to avoid the CS and move away from its territories and find allies to protect them from the CS, they would be a minority of the fatalities I expect.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:orginized wars of the CS going out with giant salt shakers and tormenting hundreds of thousands of the strange creatures in a genocidal effort to destroy all giant slugs.

War? More like a truffle hunt. We're only given the stats of adults, who knows how weak the youths are? Might be SDC like Sea Titans until they hit puberty, Dog Boys might just sense their psi and dig them up and eat them. I bet they taste like Jellyfish.

Mass spreading of salt is also a good anti-Fairie idea, I'm sure the CS will start doing it as soon as someone passes a Demon/Monster Lore roll and realizes that Shifters use them.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:the CS was the initial aggressor

The CS advanced on Kingdom of Tolkeen territories because they were harboring magical terrorists. Like the Great City of Alistair's, they would not regulate dangerous magic's use. They were accessories to aggression and thus guilty of it themselves.

Tolkeen was capable of accepting the terms Alistair rejected after they left the FoM yet they did not abide by the requests, and their unregulated magic risked endangering the Coalition States in the same way that the Great City endangered Chi-Town.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:it'd be easy to pull them off. paint them in paterotic colors, and announce "Magic is scary, but after many years of research, some of our best minds have found a way... .a way, to USE this WEAPON against those that would use it against us! BEHOLD!! THE VANGUARD!!! THE CS MAGIC SQUAD! Who's purpose is to stop those that would use -magic- against our people. Fighting fire with fire!!

I don't think any time soon we would see spellcasters in the army the way Chi-Town used to have, or even in the restricted sense the Vanguard has.

At best I can see the CS adopting Conjurors (because their spell selection is limited, so they can't start summoning demons) and Techno-Wizards.

Techno-Wizards would be kept under strict supervision, those allowed to associate with them would be severely restricted. This would prevent them from leanring dangerous things like summoning.

Their inability to cast magic without props would be a comfort, and they would be put constantly to work making stuff for CS psychics to use. They would not be allowed to cast the spells themselves or use the TW objects off-base.

I see it most likely starting as an outcropping of the RCSG ("close rift" machine, anyone? Protection-Circle-fencing? Anti-magic-cloud missiles?) with monitoring by Psi-Bat. Having Nega-Psychics and Psi-Nullifiers around the TWs/Conjurers at all times to regulate what they did, with bomb implants (like CS juicers) in case they ever go rogue.

For TWs to learn anything besides their base spells would be intensely controlled. They couldn't just go out and buy them like Adventurers could, too dangerous.

There would be no allowance for LLWs/Mystics/TWs, far too dangerous, too able to learn dangerous demon-summoning magic.

eliakon wrote:the CS has tens to hundreds of millions of humans

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... 8&t=139044 has KC saying there's 14 million humans in the CS per SB1. Can't recall how this changed with the time-skip.

eliakon wrote:FQ tried to defy Emperor Prosek, for that the sentence was death

The CS is not all about Karl, their refusal to incorporate Dog Boys put them at danger of magical and demonic incursion, Karl declaring war on them was for the good of their populace.

cput percetanges of the population to the sword [/quote]Worth pointing out here: 2 deaths would qualify as "percentages of the population". Or if you mean ignoring decimals, then we are back to the 1% figure of the CCW I guess.

eliakon wrote:the genocidal maniacs south of them that had sworn to kill every last man, woman and child in the entire nation?

When did this happen compared to the date of Tolkeen's demon-military buildup?

Does evidence exist that the CS was proposing killing all their children prior to Tolkeen shacking up with demons (who coincidentally, can pose as children, without the time limits that dragon hatchlings suffer)

eliakon wrote:The nation was not evil until it was attacked. The books are QUITE clear on this. Until the CS declaired that they were going to wipe them off the face of the planet and kill them ALL they were an innocent, harmless nation.

Where are you getting this from? We need to peg down some dates. Per Sedition 100:
*49 PA the Federation of Magic hadn't been rebuilt, Tolkeen is suspected of being behind the Mok Braun rift-conspiracy in Old Chicago. Nostrous' son Alistair didn't come back until 60PA, 11 years later.
*70 PA when Joseph First is assassinated (with help from ~100 sorcerers) CS obliterates 6 villages in Minnesota (raids others) and Tolkeen issues a warning of retaliation if they don't leave
*89 PA Creed becomes King
*100 PA Creed already doing "terrible secrets"
*101 PA the CS learns Creed is prepping for war
*102 PA Creed lets Jo-Anna get kidnapped without warning Karl
*103 PA field-testing the new CWC armor
*104 PA Chalk bombs Tolkeen without approval, I think Karl makes his big speech (which Tarn writes about in 105 PA) sometimes around then, not sure if this is before or after Chalk

The CS did engage in aggression in 70 PA but then spend 3 decades not advancing on Tolkeen, I guess the question is, when did they start with all the demons/daemonix. Doing so is grounds for invasion, it's a step beyond just building up your walls.

eliakon wrote:The 'fears' were the "your evil demon mages we must murder you all". That was said BEFORE Tolkeen turned evil.

Can we peg down some dates for when the CS made statements this aggressive and when Tolkeen started doing things to deserve them?

Seems to me that CS overstepped in rage over their leader being assassinated in 70 PA, backed off, 2 decades of peace, but then Creed decides to militarize the nation and alarm the CS, upping them in CS priority.

I'd like to know when this shifted to benign defensive militarization and the kind which could be viewed as potentially offensive/invasive or demonic.

I hate the Nazi comparisons to the CS. The Nazis fabricated a threat. The CS are dealing with a very real one.

All the traitors to humanity in this thread *shakes head*. Why do you hate your own people so much that you would side with magic users, mutants, psychics, demons and monsters?

We have a lot of idealists on this board who are ignoring the reality of Rifts earth, which is If you area a level 0 human you are near the bottom of the food chain. The CS policies you call evil and brutal are the quite natural and all too human defense mechanisms to the overwhelming loss Humanity has suffered since the coming of the Rifts.

Plenty of time is spent bemoaning how evil the CS is. But it is rarely to never that we discuss the suffering that the common man suffers at the hands of d-bees.

Wooly wrote:I hate the Nazi comparisons to the CS. The Nazis fabricated a threat. The CS are dealing with a very real one.

The CS is dealing with a real threat, but they are dealing with it by attacking or persecuting anyone who has anything in common with that threat. If the US responded to 9/11 by going after every Muslim nation on the planet I think most people would consider that a ridiculous overreaction to the very real threat of Islamic terrorism.

Wooly wrote:All the traitors to humanity in this thread *shakes head*. Why do you hate your own people so much that you would side with magic users, mutants, psychics, demons and monsters?

"Traitors to humanity?" I can't speak for everyone here, obviously, but I do not see myself as a traitor to humanity, and note that many magic-users, mutants, and psychics are human themselves. And regardless, in a multi-species universe I see no inherent reason to kill and persecute other species just because they are not your own. I would also argue that such a campaign tends to be counter-productive if it is recognized before the instigator is in a position to "take on the world" simultaneously - if the CS continues to persecute those it finds "unacceptable" there is likely to develop some united force against them with the ability to take down the CS.

Wooly wrote:Plenty of time is spent bemoaning how evil the CS is. But it is rarely to never that we discuss the suffering that the common man suffers at the hands of d-bees.

Well, "how evil the CS is" is the actual topic of this thread. If you want to discuss the suffering of the common man at the hands of d-bees, I would suggest starting a new thread.

cosmicfish wrote:

Wooly wrote:I hate the Nazi comparisons to the CS. The Nazis fabricated a threat. The CS are dealing with a very real one.

The CS is dealing with a real threat, but they are dealing with it by attacking or persecuting anyone who has anything in common with that threat. If the US responded to 9/11 by going after every Muslim nation on the planet I think most people would consider that a ridiculous overreaction to the very real threat of Islamic terrorism.

Apt comparison.

Wooly wrote:Plenty of time is spent bemoaning how evil the CS is. But it is rarely to never that we discuss the suffering that the common man suffers at the hands of d-bees.

Well, "how evil the CS is" is the actual topic of this thread. If you want to discuss the suffering of the common man at the hands of d-bees, I would suggest starting a new thread.[/quote]

That could be an interesting thread.

cosmicfish wrote:The CS is dealing with a real threat, but they are dealing with it by attacking or persecuting anyone who has anything in common with that threat. If the US responded to 9/11 by going after every Muslim nation on the planet I think most people would consider that a ridiculous overreaction to the very real threat of Islamic terrorism.

When the enemy blends in easily with "innocents" through magic and psychic deception attacking everyone who has anything in common with that threat is not a irrational course of action. Killing "innocent" civilians who are aiding enemy forces, while morally repugnant to people living today it probably the oldest way of dealing with an insurgency. Desperate times call for desperate measures. When the 90% of the human population has been prematurely killed off I can't think of a more desperate struggle.

The Anti-CS posters here are making judgement calls based of a world view born from the safety of living Western democracies early 21st century. I believe having been to war myself as an infantryman I am a bit more pragmatic.

The trauma and fear borne out of the Federation of Magics unprovoked attacks on the fledgling Coalition States, coupled with over a century of the domination of humans by the inhuman have pushed humans into a aggressive posture. Not the other way around. Humans are the victims who when they have dared to stand up for themselves are called evil. The meta-gamers delight is declaring the CS evil while conveniently ignoring that spilling one drop of innocent blood does not invalidate the CS good works. i.e defending the majority of humanity in N. America.

but, as noted, there are plenty of other places that have survived without such tactics, and in any event, the question is not "are the actions of the CS necessary" (though, as noted, they very evidently aren't. effective, perhaps, but not necessary). the question at hand is whether the actions of the CS are evil, and they are.

like i said, i can absolutely understand *why* they do those things. the CS is a very human sort of evil, one where i can understand their motivations. i cannot really comprehend the idea of a being that literally derives pleasure from inflicting suffering on others. i mean, i can comprehend that they could exist, but i am not wired to really comprehend what motivates those beings; i cannot think like them. it simply is not in my nature. but i can very much understand a being that inflicts suffering on others to increase their chance of survival, or out of fear, or even out of hatred and anger (not that i've ever grabbed a gun, marched into a village of people i don't like, and started shooting... but i've certainly been angry enough to want to hurt someone, just not on that scale).

but it doesn't matter that i can understand their actions, or even that some of the atrocities they commit have rational thought behind them.

i can understand the idea of not valuing the life of other people. but that doesn't make it any less evil if you just slaughter them.

Armchair morality is fine, you can take the bird's eye view and call them reactionary fascists. You aren't wrong.

But in rifts, they have the largest holding of land and accomplished it the only way possible, as there is no Napoleon to buy it from on the cheap. The government isn't nice, the leaders are evil, but to call what they do unnecessary and have then take a different route would just leave it open for someone like Dunscon to take the lead.

I'm not saying, "be happy it's the CS because the alternative is worse", and even if I was it still wouldn't make uncle Skullhead the good guy. What I am saying is their methods are victory in the setting, and winning as a race takes precedent over morality. Even if it's just Prosek twirling his mustache, the result for the human race's security is evident.

CS evil, but also doing the right thing for now. Years down the road they'll have much to answer for and you likely won't recognize them as they are today. Unless they fail by dying out or defeat, which is possible if they never change.

Alrik Vas wrote:But in rifts, they have the largest holding of land and accomplished it the only way possible, as there is no Napoleon to buy it from on the cheap. The government isn't nice, the leaders are evil, but to call what they do unnecessary and have then take a different route would just leave it open for someone like Dunscon to take the lead.

I'm not saying, "be happy it's the CS because the alternative is worse", and even if I was it still wouldn't make uncle Skullhead the good guy. What I am saying is their methods are victory in the setting, and winning as a race takes precedent over morality. Even if it's just Prosek twirling his mustache, the result for the human race's security is evident.

CS evil, but also doing the right thing for now. Years down the road they'll have much to answer for and you likely won't recognize them as they are today. Unless they fail by dying out or defeat, which is possible if they never change.

I would not say it's the only way possible. When they first formed, it was before they got all harsh, it included most of the modern states, and they could've even had an additional state had they accepted Duscan's offer.

The NGR didn't need those methods, and finds them unsettling. The New Empire in Japan didn't. Colombia didn't. Heck, the Warlords of Russia let some DBs in their ranks, and they're in the land of demons.

dunscon is a joke. his federation is a failure, and is probably about to get ripped a new one in the minion war since he's got plenty of both sides in his lame excuse for a federation (which really consists of one city that doesn't control most of the really major forces in the FoM area).

he's about as close to taking over north America as I am.

the CS can take credit for holding the St Louis rift for a long time, but simply put, the CS is far from the only nation that is capable of defending its people against most threats. the only thing the CS has that the others don't is that the CS can also afford to attack other nations - handy, of course, but not remotely necessary for survival. and in large part comes not from their policy of exterminating non-humans so much as it comes from having access to a lot of technology and knowledge that other nations do not have access to.

what they do is not necessary for survival. there are other human communities in north America, each of which have survived in their own way and risen from the ashes, being comprised in each case primarily of people that survived the same things as the people that formed the CS, and the only one that considers indiscriminate slaughter of any creature not able to trace their ancestry to this instance of earth a necessity is the CS (free quebec does not appear to particularly care what you are, so long as you are not inside their borders - I would describe them as being indifferent to the slaughter of d-bees or perhaps even mildly in favor of the concept, but not especially in favor of getting up and doing it).

there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that if the CS was to stop killing d-bees just for being d-bees that the CS would be in any worse shape than they are now.

Shark_Force wrote:dunscon is a joke. his federation is a failure, and is probably about to get ripped a new one in the minion war since he's got plenty of both sides in his lame excuse for a federation (which really consists of one city that doesn't control most of the really major forces in the FoM area).

he's about as close to taking over north America as I am.

I mean the first Dunscan, who was a friend of Chi-Town and had his own city, before they fell out and he got bitter.

The CS's war with them was unnecessary, the CS could've started out a bit bigger and without a war to kick things off if they wanted.


Agree that the current Dunscon is a joke.

Q99 wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:But in rifts, they have the largest holding of land and accomplished it the only way possible, as there is no Napoleon to buy it from on the cheap. The government isn't nice, the leaders are evil, but to call what they do unnecessary and have then take a different route would just leave it open for someone like Dunscon to take the lead.

I'm not saying, "be happy it's the CS because the alternative is worse", and even if I was it still wouldn't make uncle Skullhead the good guy. What I am saying is their methods are victory in the setting, and winning as a race takes precedent over morality. Even if it's just Prosek twirling his mustache, the result for the human race's security is evident.

CS evil, but also doing the right thing for now. Years down the road they'll have much to answer for and you likely won't recognize them as they are today. Unless they fail by dying out or defeat, which is possible if they never change.

I would not say it's the only way possible. When they first formed, it was before they got all harsh, it included most of the modern states, and they could've even had an additional state had they accepted Duscan's offer.

The NGR didn't need those methods, and finds them unsettling. The New Empire in Japan didn't. Colombia didn't. Heck, the Warlords of Russia let some DBs in their ranks, and they're in the land of demons.

They were betrayed by magic users, though.and the NGR might not exterminate non-humans on site, but they don't treat them as equals. Let's not even start on the levels of xenophobia in Japan.

Alrik Vas wrote: They were betrayed by magic users, though.

Basically, Dunscan was an ally, expected an invite from Chi-Town, got a list of conditions, and *then* got resentful and turned against Chi-Town.

There was a point when Chi-Town could've had a powerful magic ally just by having a more open hand. Or at least a non-hostile state if things were handled different.

and the NGR might not exterminate non-humans on site, but they don't treat them as equals.

Which shows that method works, and that's different and less evil than the CS's method.

And Lazlo's method of incorporating D-Bees seems to have worked quite well for that matter. It requires a little more work in correctly identifying which can be trusted, but it pays off by gaining allies.

cosmicfish wrote:The CS is dealing with a real threat, but they are dealing with it by attacking or persecuting anyone who has anything in common with that threat.
If the US responded to 9/11 by going after every Muslim nation on the planet I think most people would consider that a ridiculous overreaction to the very real threat of Islamic terrorism.

Islam and Wizardry are not equivalent levels of danger. The first might be interpreted by some to move them towards violence, but it does not empower them to do so, they are still limited by normal means of offense like guns/bombs.

Even with nukes around, I don't view the human terrorism of today as being anywhere near as dangerous to humans as magic (or the many variety of dangerous aliens) are to humans in Rifts.

Also worth pointing out: the CS isn't currently going after every muslim on the planet. They're securing their borders. The CS are investigating D-Bees and Mages in a much smaller surface area than the US is doing within their own borders currently.

cosmicfish wrote:I do not see myself as a traitor to humanity, and note that many magic-users, mutants, and psychics are human themselves.

Being of a group does not mean you can't betray the group.

It is also possible to be foolish/naive and betray through action but not intent.

People can have all the good intentions in the world and still endanger people with their choices. People who avoid giving vaccines to their kids or using barriers as STD prevention. People who pollute. People who drive recklessly. They may think they can handle the car, even with a bit of beer or a cell phone, until they run someone over. Mages are doing that times a hundredfold.

cosmicfish wrote:in a multi-species universe I see no inherent reason to kill and persecute other species just because they are not your own.

The CS has never done this. It persecutes other species because they are invading Earth and displacing humans or competing with them by appropriating their resources.

cosmicfish wrote:if the CS continues to persecute those it finds "unacceptable" there is likely to develop some united force against them with the ability to take down the CS.

That's certainly a possibility. Although one could argue that the Coalition States is an example of exactly this type of thing. A united force of normal humans (or those friendly to prioritizing their interests) standing up against the oppression of the powered who would rule against them, as exemplified by the Federation of Magic who instigated their formation with their 'might makes right' mages-rule-all policies.

Wooly wrote:I hate the Nazi comparisons to the CS. The Nazis fabricated a threat. The CS are dealing with a very real one.

All the traitors to humanity in this thread *shakes head*. Why do you hate your own people so much that you would side with magic users, mutants, psychics, demons and monsters?

We have a lot of idealists on this board who are ignoring the reality of Rifts earth, which is If you area a level 0 human you are near the bottom of the food chain. The CS policies you call evil and brutal are the quite natural and all too human defense mechanisms to the overwhelming loss Humanity has suffered since the coming of the Rifts.

Plenty of time is spent bemoaning how evil the CS is. But it is rarely to never that we discuss the suffering that the common man suffers at the hands of d-bees.

I've pointed that sort of thing out, but it tends to be hand waved aside. The CS has a very real 300 year history of dealing with all those dangers and threats. It's not imagined at all.

Shark_Force wrote:but, as noted, there are plenty of other places that have survived without such tactics, and in any event, the question is not "are the actions of the CS necessary" (though, as noted, they very evidently aren't. effective, perhaps, but not necessary). the question at hand is whether the actions of the CS are evil, and they are.

like i said, i can absolutely understand *why* they do those things. the CS is a very human sort of evil, one where i can understand their motivations. i cannot really comprehend the idea of a being that literally derives pleasure from inflicting suffering on others. i mean, i can comprehend that they could exist, but i am not wired to really comprehend what motivates those beings; i cannot think like them. it simply is not in my nature. but i can very much understand a being that inflicts suffering on others to increase their chance of survival, or out of fear, or even out of hatred and anger (not that i've ever grabbed a gun, marched into a village of people i don't like, and started shooting... but i've certainly been angry enough to want to hurt someone, just not on that scale).

but it doesn't matter that i can understand their actions, or even that some of the atrocities they commit have rational thought behind them.

i can understand the idea of not valuing the life of other people. but that doesn't make it any less evil if you just slaughter them.

Thing is, there's NOT plenty of other places that have survived with out such tactics, -- on the same scale as the CS--. There are small towns and kingdoms. And that's using the word loosely. A few thousand here. a few hundred there. Not the multi millions that the CS has.

Even if you added up all the other humans in North America, you wouldn't come up with half of the population of the CS.

As for the rest, it circles back around to "Noone has any problem what so ever wiping out an army of demons." Why? Because they're demons! They're Evil!" To the CS, the DBees and Magic users fall into the same category. They don't whipe them out to be 'evil'. In their minds they're taking out very real very viable threats to their own lives.

We, as readers out side the world know that not -every- dbee or magic user is evil, but in world the CS don't know that at all. They've been preyed on by Dbees and Magic users from the start of all this. Magic nations tried to wipe them out and almost did so. It's not some fictional made up enemy that they are manufacturing to galvinize a population. They don't have to. the 'truth' is far scarier.

Now the CS does use PR to get what it wants, but all governments do. Do they stretch the truth about Magic and Dbees? SURE. Thing is.. they don't actually HAVE TO. The truth is bad enough. The CS just make good use of what's there.

Pepsi regarding the 'nobody has a problem wiping out an army of demons' bit, I could possibly see Dweomer having a problem with it since a significant portion of their population is demons.

Shark_Force wrote:there are plenty of other places that have survived without such tactics

Considering all the variables at play in any such comparison I would suggest that a new thread be started for each one.

Each has a unique situation and history that shaped them.

The NGR for example, benefitted from Germany being hit relatively lightly by the Cataclysm. They had a higher base of tech to build off of.

The NGR has also not had to deal with a Federation of Magic equivalent.

The Gargoyle Empire is certainly a major threat, but they're also big lumbering easy-to-identify guys.

Even when some can turn invisible, for those who can see the invisible, giants be noticeable. Even Brodkil who are small compared to Gargs are much larger than humans.

The NGR's mass tech allows them to thermo-view the invisibles anyway.

At worst, the magical threats they've had to deal with are going to be some low-level earth warlocks via the rare Gargoyle Mages.

It's simply not the same.

I'm sure if you wanted to, you could go into detail, but I worry that this could cause too much of a branch point.

Even if another nation is better off and did less morally ambiguous things to get that way, they could've had an easier time than the CS, so I don't see it as any grounds for comparison.

Unless we can prove another nation had to overcome more and did so by lowering themself less (please make a thread explaining how and why) I don't see it as impacting the CS' relative morality.

Q99 wrote:I would not say it's the only way possible. When they first formed, it was before they got all harsh, it included most of the modern states

and then look what happened to them. 'course this is just the original history, prior to SoT retconning the official history and making it so the CS was formed decades after the FoM's attack on Chi-Town instead of over a decade BEFORE.

Q99 wrote:they could've even had an additional state had they accepted Duscan's offer.

What offer? Nostrous expected to be invited and threw a fit when he wasn't. The CS founding states were clearly right not to invite him since he was unstable. Just look at how the FoM was ruled. Instead of allowing the people to vote in a fair election (which was what happened with Joseph the First) they simply had wizard duels to determine who ruled. Nostrous the Temporal Wizard and Alistair the Shifter are two sides of the same coin. For all I know, Nostrous could've been worse.

Q99 wrote:The NGR didn't need those methods, and finds them unsettling. The New Empire in Japan didn't.

and they both had a lot more pre-Rifts tech to rely on, and much less sophisticated magical enemies

Q99 wrote:Colombia didn't. Heck, the Warlords of Russia let some DBs in their ranks, and they're in the land of demons.

and how do the common people who don't happen to be MD-wielding Warlords fare in Russia?

Colombia is what, 1/10 the human population the CS has? Look at how much land they dominate! Can we say the CS controls a region 10x that size?

Do we know the full implications of the Transdimensional Techno-Wizardry behind the Anti-Monsters?

Columbia effectively has a moat around 3/4 of it (north/east/south) and a mountain range bordering the west. It looks a lot easier to defend than the CS.

Sure there are some mages nearby, but they're off on some islands doing voodoo/biomancy, not invading or accidentally dropping demon armies on them.

The vampires they have to deal with are pretty tough, but they're also supernatural and easy to detect, and help to make a common enemy of the mortals who face them.

Lagarto is probably the closest non-vampire threat, and it might seem close, but even though South America is narrower than North America, they're still a pretty significant distance off, much like Lazlo is.

Q99 wrote:the CS can take credit for holding the St Louis rift for a long time, but simply put, the CS is far from the only nation that is capable of defending its people against most threats.

True, but WHAT threats? I mean, technically Magestar or New Lazlo defends their people from threats too. But it's not the same level. They're benefitting from bigger nations casting a shadow, dealing with bigger threats.

Do we even know just how bad the St. Louis Rift is? What if it's WORSE than the Gargoyle Empire?

Q99 wrote:what they do is not necessary for survival. there are other human communities in north America, each of which have survived in their own way and risen from the ashes

Not in a void, they have benefitted from the CS presence. Please seriously get into particulars, split it off into a new thread so we can hash it out. This is incredibly complicated. Tell me which city/nation you think is better and why they haven't benefitted from the CS dealing with threats for them.

Q99 wrote:the only one that considers indiscriminate slaughter of any creature not able to trace their ancestry to this instance of earth a necessity is the CS

That is not the CS policy, the CS do not indiscriminately slaughter all non-Earthlings, just a lot of them. Sometimes they will pressure people to move further away, deport them, capture them, enslave them, etc.

Q99 wrote:free quebec does not appear to particularly care what you are, so long as you are not inside their borders

The CS is the same, they're just more enthusiastic border-defenders and more expansionist.

Q99 wrote:there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that if the CS was to stop killing d-bees just for being d-bees that the CS would be in any worse shape than they are now.

Do you think the purge of shape-shifters in 1 PA was a bad idea too?

Q99 wrote:I mean the first Dunscan, who was a friend of Chi-Town and had his own city, before they fell out and he got bitter.

The CS's war with them was unnecessary, the CS could've started out a bit bigger and without a war to kick things off if they wanted.

Where do you get this 'friend of Chi-Town' thing? Would a true friend get "enraged" because he didn't happen to be invited to be one of the founding members of the Coalition States in 1 PA? A week later he just assumes he'll get invited (it's just owed to him, I guess?) and rather than wonder "how can I change to be worthy of this new Coalition?" he just feels entitled to it. Never mind that his Federation might have problems that need fixing first.

The new CS expresses concerns with him (WB16p10) and he doesn't hear out the concerns (only a tenth of the way, so probably around 14 of the 134 of the requests) and just rage-quits the meeting.

Nostrous CLAIMS to have come in peace, as a friend, as an ally. But would someone who truly embodied these attitudes so quickly turn hostile?

The CS expressing concerns is called a "veiled threat". Making requests that he make the Federation a safer neighbour is treating him like a "conquered enemy".

Nostrous is also clearly a dishonest person. He claims the CS has nothing to fear from him if they're left alone, but then goes and invades them 11 years later. The CS was "letting sleeping dogs lie" and Nostrous starts planning to conquer the continent within 4 years after promising he's peaceful.

This was not a friend. His so-called peaceful federation was quick to start summoning demons and making pacts (witches?). When "clashes occurred" the flip sides of behavior were: sorceres 'unable to contain themselves' (that sounds unstable to me) attacking CS outposts. The CS "clashing" was merely them having spies in the FoM and them being uncovered and EXECUTED.

The CS wisely were less tolerent of magic practitioners (after magic sent a winged demon army to slaughter Burbites, and sorcerers were attacking outposts, not being held in check by Nostrous) and Nostrous spins this into them having foul intentions, even though it was a reasonable response.

You say the "war with them". FoM started the war by invading. The CS were attacked, survived, responded, won.

Q99 wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:But in rifts, they have the largest holding of land and accomplished it the only way possible, as there is no Napoleon to buy it from on the cheap. The government isn't nice, the leaders are evil, but to call what they do unnecessary and have then take a different route would just leave it open for someone like Dunscon to take the lead.

I'm not saying, "be happy it's the CS because the alternative is worse", and even if I was it still wouldn't make uncle Skullhead the good guy. What I am saying is their methods are victory in the setting, and winning as a race takes precedent over morality. Even if it's just Prosek twirling his mustache, the result for the human race's security is evident.

CS evil, but also doing the right thing for now. Years down the road they'll have much to answer for and you likely won't recognize them as they are today. Unless they fail by dying out or defeat, which is possible if they never change.

I would not say it's the only way possible. When they first formed, it was before they got all harsh, it included most of the modern states, and they could've even had an additional state had they accepted Duscan's offer.

The NGR didn't need those methods, and finds them unsettling. The New Empire in Japan didn't. Colombia didn't. Heck, the Warlords of Russia let some DBs in their ranks, and they're in the land of demons.

Remember 'when' the CS "Got Harsh" though... after the attack and near annihilation of the CS at the hands of the Magic Nation. Not an imagined threat but a very real one that almost destroyed humanity in that war. The CS by all accounts lucked out with what happened and the leadership of the day.

The "NGR" Isn't the same as the CS. They 'survived' the coming of rifts. They didn't have to dig out of 200 years of black ages. They survived all that time. More over the NGR is in a different position. They're under seige. Have been for generations. It breeds a different mindset. A "Defenders" Mindset.

Even then, people forget the NGR isn't much different than the CS. They're a LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTLE bit less aggressive, but not too much. Their enemies are just more consolidated and clear. The NGR doesn't make deals with Gargoyles. They kill um on sight with everything they have. They allow Dbees... --kinda--. Mostly they move them out of their territory. Which might seem nicer than the CS.. but think about it. If you're surrounded on all sides by demonic armies of Gargoyles, and you 'relocate' a villiage of Dbees out side your turf.... you just fed them to the gargoyles. lol. Sure th NGR seems nicer in that aspect but really are they? They might not have firebombed the village of dbees, but feeding them to the gargoyle hordes isn't really any better.

The alturnative? Fight as cannon fodder for 20 years to get second class citizenship. Which, is an option. But when you're going to be used as canon fodder for 20 foot tall demons, for 20 years... one might wonder. Again, they're being fed to demons by the humans.

You say Japan didn't need those methods.. well. one wonders what the US Government would be like in rifts earth if it could skip the comming of rifts and he 200 years of dark ages and just fast forward to the present time fully intact with all their golden age tech. One would think they'd be ALOT different. Japan 'cheated' and 'skipped' all the hard stuff. To equate them is to invalidate the last 300 years of rifts history.

The warlords are... .bionic hordes of miscrients and ... warlords. lol they're no better than the CS.

Shark_Force wrote: dunscon is a joke. his federation is a failure, and is probably about to get ripped a new one in the minion war since he's got plenty of both sides in his lame excuse for a federation (which really consists of one city that doesn't control most of the really major forces in the FoM area).

I'm pretty sure they meant back when the CS was just starting and the Federation attacked and almost wiped out humanity.

As for him being a joke, he is a mustash twirlling villian, but one of the newer books indicated that he's been solidifying support and forces on the sly. That the CS are blind to, that he's been working behind the scenes and is much more a threat than people currently give him credit for. I forget which book it was, it was a small almost throw away notation but it's in there. Some where between Black Market and the current book. I wish I could remember the book and the quote, but it's out there. Some indication that the Fed-o-M, isn't the joke that many think it is and it's coiling and readying itself to strike.

Shark_Force wrote:
he's about as close to taking over north America as I am.

the CS can take credit for holding the St Louis rift for a long time, but simply put, the CS is far from the only nation that is capable of defending its people against most threats.

It's the biggest in North america by far, and as far as humanity in North America it outnumbers all others put together.

Shark_Force wrote:
the only thing the CS has that the others don't is that the CS can also afford to attack other nations - handy, of course, but not remotely necessary for survival. and in large part comes not from their policy of exterminating non-humans so much as it comes from having access to a lot of technology and knowledge that other nations do not have access to.

what they do is not necessary for survival. there are other human communities in north America, each of which have survived in their own way and risen from the ashes, being comprised in each case primarily of people that survived the same things as the people that formed the CS,

None remotely as large. Again if you add all the others together you don't remotely approach the CS numbers. A 'kingdom' of 5,000 people or 10,000 people is a kingdom in name only. Their total population are smaller than the numbers we have in cities these days. ( Or to be fair, not close to the number in one CS mega city in rifts)

Shark_Force wrote:
and the only one that considers indiscriminate slaughter of any creature not able to trace their ancestry to this instance of earth a necessity is the CS (free quebec does not appear to particularly care what you are, so long as you are not inside their borders - I would describe them as being indifferent to the slaughter of d-bees or perhaps even mildly in favor of the concept, but not especially in favor of getting up and doing it).

That's a rather rosy rebranding of FQ. They're actually presented as being -more- human surprimistist, than the CS. FQ won't even allow dog boys and such in their nation. If you mean they're not expansionist, remember FQ was a willing and active member of the CS For years until the CS Wouldn't just let them do what ever they wanted while taking all the benifits of the CS. We don't really know what they're upto as the last time they did anything it was to ally with the CS against tolkeen and the demons, mages and dbees there.

Shark_Force wrote:
there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that if the CS was to stop killing d-bees just for being d-bees that the CS would be in any worse shape than they are now.

Except for the previous 300 years of predation of the human race by dbees and supernatural creatures of all kinds. That part's easy to wave aside if you choose to ignore "Rifts history"

Wooly wrote:I hate the Nazi comparisons to the CS. The Nazis fabricated a threat. The CS are dealing with a very real one.

All the traitors to humanity in this thread *shakes head*. Why do you hate your own people so much that you would side with magic users, mutants, psychics, demons and monsters?

We have a lot of idealists on this board who are ignoring the reality of Rifts earth, which is If you area a level 0 human you are near the bottom of the food chain. The CS policies you call evil and brutal are the quite natural and all too human defense mechanisms to the overwhelming loss Humanity has suffered since the coming of the Rifts.

Plenty of time is spent bemoaning how evil the CS is. But it is rarely to never that we discuss the suffering that the common man suffers at the hands of d-bees.

Yeah, this is pretty ridiculous. NONE of us are living on Rifts Earth, it's a fictional world where the author make it quite clear that the CS is explicitly an expy of the Nazi regime. The leader of the nation admires Hitler but plans on doing a better job than he did, and he's most definitely manufactured the threat he's used to manipulate people into willingly supporting his genocidal dreams of power.

There are no traitors to humanity in this thread, other than perhaps those who actually think genocide is excusable as long as you can demonize the victim well enough. The reality of Rifts Earth is the 'not so different' trope, both good and bad. The CS is no different than Atlantis in the end, and most D-bees are just as good as any human.

In regards to the common man, they suffer just as much if not moreso directly and indirectly at the hands of the CS as they do from any evil d-bees that are running around. Those Burbs aren't havens of peace and prosperity for the common man, and the peace-loving common man saw death and destruction in places like Tolkeen at the hands of the CS.

the author make it quite clear that the CS is explicitly an expy of the Nazi regime. The leader of the nation admires Hitler but plans on doing a better job than he did

Sounds to me that there are parts of Hitler that Prosek did not admire. Who is to say which parts he admired and which he looked down upon?

he's most definitely manufactured the threat he's used to manipulate people into willingly supporting his genocidal dreams of power.

LOL no, the threat of demon-summoning violent mages attacking the CS existed before the CS harsh policies against them.

There are no traitors to humanity in this thread, other than perhaps those who actually think genocide is excusable as long as you can demonize the victim well enough.

If by 'demonize' you mean pointing out that people are summoning demons and making pacts with them, and are responsible for looshing armies of them upon innocent people trying to scape by, then I think that's a fine thing to do.

The CS is no different than Atlantis in the end

Right because the CS is raising sentient beings to eat them for fun?

In regards to the common man, they suffer just as much if not moreso directly and indirectly at the hands of the CS as they do from any evil d-bees that are running around.

Then why are people staying and flocking toward the protection of the CS?

If it is equal or better elsewhere, why aren't they leaving?

Those Burbs aren't havens of peace and prosperity for the common man

The burbs are a wilderness the CS sometimes helps out with, you're holding the CS accountable for stuff happening on the outskirts they haven't yet been able to secure.

the peace-loving common man saw death and destruction in places like Tolkeen at the hands of the CS.

I disagree, I believe the peace-lovers left well in advance of this, to places that advised non-confrontation like Lazlo.

Wooly wrote:I hate the Nazi comparisons to the CS. The Nazis fabricated a threat. The CS are dealing with a very real one.

Except they do fabricate threats, all the time. That's the point.

There are real threats out there, but they project ordinary D-Bees as threats and kill them by the hundreds of thousands when that's not true. They attack magic users, who learned magic for the purpose of fighting off the actual threats.

Tolkeen was a war fought because the CS fabricated a threat on to a whole nation. The original Dunscon turned from an ally into a threat because the first Emperor decided to make magic a scapegoat for personal political gain when it very definitely was not needed to survive.

Also? The Emperor idolizes Nazis. So, yea.

Plenty of time is spent bemoaning how evil the CS is. But it is rarely to never that we discuss the suffering that the common man suffers at the hands of d-bees.

Countless humans have survived due to befriending and working with D-Bees. And, often enough, are killed by the CS for doing so.

The lumping all D-Bees together is a big part of the problem.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Remember 'when' the CS "Got Harsh" though... after the attack and near annihilation of the CS at the hands of the Magic Nation. Not an imagined threat but a very real one that almost destroyed humanity in that war. The CS by all accounts lucked out with what happened and the leadership of the day.

A magic nation they could've easily had as an ally because it was a mostly-human one that started out as a friend of Chi-Town's.

Demonizing magic was a propaganda path to power that often backfires in creating enemies. They have fought two wars against mostly-human nations on this ground.

The warlords are... .bionic hordes of miscrients and ... warlords. lol they're no better than the CS.

And yet they're more discriminant and willing to accept D-Bees in their ranks.

If warlords surrounded by demons can do it, the Coalition States have no excuse.

There are nations both better off and worse off that handle things better.

Q99 wrote:Except they do fabricate threats, all the time. That's the point. There are real threats out there, but they project ordinary D-Bees as threats and kill them by the hundreds of thousands when that's not true.

I don't see this as threat fabrication. It see it as being very precautious.

If I take an unloaded or prop gun and aim it at a police officer's head, I am not actually a threat since I can't shoot them. But since they have no easy way of knowing this, they are still acting in response to a high likelihood of threat as they see it.

Q99 wrote:Tolkeen was a war fought because the CS fabricated a threat on to a whole nation.

Wrong, Tolkeen had already begun to militarize before the CS declared war.

Tolkeen has always been a city of mages and with Dunscon gone, were the prime suspects of being behind the Old Chicago problems that preceded Nostrous' return.

They were also suspects in the assassination on Joseph the First, and Tolkeen interfered with the securing of CS borders, threatening the CS to stop investigating towns in Minnesota.

Q99 wrote:The original Dunscon turned from an ally into a threat because the first Emperor decided to make magic a scapegoat for personal political gain when it very definitely was not needed to survive.

That is completely incorrect, you need to reread your history.

Nostrous Dunscon died somewhere between 12-14 PA, Karl was born 44 PA, elected chairman 71 PA, and after 5 years of being harassed by a loving public, gave in and accepted being Emperor in 78 PA. As of 109 PA the CS has only been an empire for 31 years out of its 108 year reign. That's less than a third. Joseph the First, the one in conflict with Nostrous, was never Emperor. Like Karl he was a democratically elected Chairman.

Joseph did not turn magic into a scapegoat, Nostrous and his Great City did that themselves by unleashing demons on the Burbs (and their own people) and utterly rejecting the requests for negotiation and diplomacy. Even after that, the CS still left them alone, and the FoM attacked anyway because Nostrous pride was hurt because he didn't get to join the CS club right off the bat and because he wasn't unconditionally accepted by them. Heaven forbid a member state need make some concessions or compromises to form a safe working government.

Q99 wrote:The Emperor idolizes Nazis. So, yea.

Source? Why plural? He's mentioned as thinking Adol was "insightful" and "brilliant". What he's mentioned as taking from him: utilizing a sense of unity, patriotism, war, all to unite and motivate people. Do you take any issue with this broad sense of appreciation?

"Idolize" is too strong. CWCp36 says that Karl views Hitler as a delusional dishonorable insane madman. Does that sound like how you would think of someone you idolize?

Karl learns from military pre-Rifts history, that does not mean he shares the views of the people he learns from. He takes the 'best traits' from, besides Hitler, also Caesar/Khan/Napoleon. Judging by Hitler, the 'best traits' means their ability to lead people and conquer land. It doesn't mean anything else about them. Thinking that Karl's racism has anything to do with Hitler's is like assuming Karl will love watching gladiator fights just because it was a Roman past-time.

Q99 wrote:The lumping all D-Bees together is a big part of the problem.

A non-existent problem because it doesn't happen. The CS distinguishes between different types. Dangerous supernatural beings like dragons basically have kill-on-sight orders, whereas less dangerous D-Bees can be brought in as slaves and basically ignored by Psi-Stalker patrols since they are more normal.

Q99 wrote:A magic nation they could've easily had as an ally because it was a mostly-human one that started out as a friend of Chi-Town's.

We discussing the Great City that used to be in Old Chicago led by Nostrous again?

He ended that alliance by shutting down peace talks and then attacking them. Blaming the CS for what happened is absurd. They were the victims.

Q99 wrote:

warlords are... .bionic hordes of miscrients and ... warlords. lol they're no better than the CS.

And yet they're more discriminant and willing to accept D-Bees in their ranks.

So do the Pecos Raiders... so does the City of Brass... so does Soul Harvest. I don't see what point is making here. Does being race-inclusive over-ride everything else like the quality of life for your ground-roots citizenry?

Q99 wrote:Demonizing magic was a propaganda path to power that often backfires in creating enemies. They have fought two wars against mostly-human nations on this ground.

LOL no. Tolkeen at best, perhaps, because the Tolkeen power-buildup and hostility was in response to the CS wasting some Missouri towns while they were mourning Joseph the First post-assassination. Definitely not the Great City or Nostrous Dunscon though. That was HIS fault.

Man so much twisted logic.

How does a person having pointed ears = pointing an unloaded gun at a police officer.

How is persecuting a dwarf trying to live a peaceful life different from persecuting a black man?

It might be easy to draw a them and us line but that is just a form of racism no different from white vs black or Mexican. And if you think it is ok to do so you are on a very slippery sloop.

And calling some one a traitor of humanity for posting there thoughts, is just a sign that some one is closed minded.

Is there some good in the CS yes, is there corruption and evil in the CS yes. Which way does the CS leadership lean, according to most the books I have read they tend to lean towards evil.

A closed minded nation that bans learning of anything that they disagree with and has a writer as there number one enemy clearly is up no good.

Oh, pshaw. They're just nice boys with a little club. They don't mean no harm.

/evil

Blue_Lion wrote:Man so much twisted logic. How does a person having pointed ears = pointing an unloaded gun at a police officer.

I'm talking more along the lines of how supernatural creatures and mages are treated, they've essentiall got built-in guns.

Elves are not gunned down as if they are threatening a cop simply for existing. They just have to get out of the way and push off. The CS does not mandate killing them, but it also doesn't care much to protect them, or even to penalize its own officers for taking them out. At best they benefit indirectly when the CS takes out threats to humans and elves alike.

Blue_Lion wrote:How is persecuting a dwarf trying to live a peaceful life different from persecuting a black man?

This depends upon the context of the persecution in either case.

If a black man or a dwarf is not a citizen of the CS then they will be shoved off, violently if they resist. The dwarf more violently since they are more of an unknown, and an alien invader.

Blue_Lion wrote:It might be easy to draw a them and us line but that is just a form of racism no different from white vs black or Mexican.

Mexican is a nationality. This is a nationality issue. Admittedly human foreigners get some slack that D-bee foreigners lack, just as D-Bee foreigners get slack that Supernatural doreigners lack. It comes with trusting and prioritizing humanity.

Blue_Lion wrote:calling some one a traitor of humanity for posting there thoughts, is just a sign that some one is closed minded.

What specifically are you talking about?

If it's Erin Tarn, she does more than just post her thoughts. She consorts with supernatural shape-changers and engages in policy-making for a magical city, and she not only carries magical items herself but also hangs with a dude who carries a weapon with a soul trapped in it with enchanted metals made into a living part of his chest.

Of course, enemies want to say, it's just about that Erin Tarn writes, but I don't buy it. Tarn betrays Humanity through her choice of associates and her choice of possessions, in the view of those who think dragons and magic wands are sinister.

Blue_Lion wrote:A closed minded nation that bans learning of anything that they disagree with and has a writer as there number one enemy clearly is up no good.

Tarn is not just a writer, there are plenty of writers, she does something to stand out amongst them. Being a writer isn't a get-out-of-jail free card.

What specifically are the CS banning learning, exactly?

The CS doesn't ban anything, it just regulates access to knowledge. Literacy is available via strict military regulation because it is extremely dangerous, it allows people to utilize scrolls and spread enemy propaganda more easily without accountability.

Tor wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Man so much twisted logic. How does a person having pointed ears = pointing an unloaded gun at a police officer.

I'm talking more along the lines of how supernatural creatures and mages are treated, they've essentiall got built-in guns.

Elves are not gunned down as if they are threatening a cop simply for existing. They just have to get out of the way and push off. The CS does not mandate killing them, but it also doesn't care much to protect them, or even to penalize its own officers for taking them out. At best they benefit indirectly when the CS takes out threats to humans and elves alike.

Blue_Lion wrote:How is persecuting a dwarf trying to live a peaceful life different from persecuting a black man?

This depends upon the context of the persecution in either case.

If a black man or a dwarf is not a citizen of the CS then they will be shoved off, violently if they resist. The dwarf more violently since they are more of an unknown, and an alien invader.

Blue_Lion wrote:It might be easy to draw a them and us line but that is just a form of racism no different from white vs black or Mexican.

Mexican is a nationality. This is a nationality issue. Admittedly human foreigners get some slack that D-bee foreigners lack, just as D-Bee foreigners get slack that Supernatural doreigners lack. It comes with trusting and prioritizing humanity.

Blue_Lion wrote:calling some one a traitor of humanity for posting there thoughts, is just a sign that some one is closed minded.

What specifically are you talking about?

If it's Erin Tarn, she does more than just post her thoughts. She consorts with supernatural shape-changers and engages in policy-making for a magical city, and she not only carries magical items herself but also hangs with a dude who carries a weapon with a soul trapped in it with enchanted metals made into a living part of his chest.

Of course, enemies want to say, it's just about that Erin Tarn writes, but I don't buy it. Tarn betrays Humanity through her choice of associates and her choice of possessions, in the view of those who think dragons and magic wands are sinister.

Blue_Lion wrote:A closed minded nation that bans learning of anything that they disagree with and has a writer as there number one enemy clearly is up no good.

Tarn is not just a writer, there are plenty of writers, she does something to stand out amongst them. Being a writer isn't a get-out-of-jail free card.

What specifically are the CS banning learning, exactly?

The CS doesn't ban anything, it just regulates access to knowledge. Literacy is available via strict military regulation because it is extremely dangerous, it allows people to utilize scrolls and spread enemy propaganda more easily without accountability.

Well for starters one poster called others traitors of humanity.

The KKK did not gun down most blacks they just wanted them to shove off, in the beginning the Nazis did not kill all jews they just wanted them to shove off. Like the KKK and the Nazis the CS are written as intolerant racist.

What the CS banned on learning, um anything that conflicts with propaganda or the government does not control such as the fact they did not create the samas or that not all debees want to roast you alive. (why do think scholar classes are called rouges?)

Reading dangerous? oh wait you mean thinking for themselves is dangerous because people might question what the government says.

OK I will bite what makes her stand out among all the other writers in rifts to earn the number 1 place on there list the only thing I know she is known for is writing about how the world is and a disagreement with the CS policies. How does that rate a number 1 spot.

You right silly me burning farms and killing farmers for not wanting to leave the land the have famed for generations because they are not what you call human is not evil. The CS is evil because they allow bigotry color there perception and drive there actions.
And lets not forget the fact that they have on the books practiced genocide.

Telling some one to shove off or they can not live some where based on race is racism plain and simple and a nation that practices that is not a good nation.

The way the CS was written is based off Nazi Germany and they where intended to be the bad guys. Many of the symbols the CS covered in are ones at the time they where first written are considered dark or evil.
In fact if you look many of KS major villains have skull motive going on and not just in rifts.

Blue Lion wrote:The KKK did not gun down most blacks they just wanted them to shove off, in the beginning the Nazis did not kill all jews they just wanted them to shove off. Like the KKK and the Nazis the CS are written as intolerant racist.

The issue is where the CS is now, not where they might go later. Yes, they could get worse, but they could also get better. The CS have some measure of tolerence for D-Bees, it is just a very small amount.

Blue Lion wrote:What the CS banned on learning, um anything that conflicts with propaganda or the government does not control such as the fact they did not create the samas or that not all debees want to roast you alive. (why do think scholar classes are called rouges?)

You will not be arrested merely for saying that "all d-bees will not roast you alive" because realistically people will accept that 1% might not want to. The problem is when you start saying "most d-bees won't roast you alive" because you have no proof to back it and might mislead people into a false sense of securty.

Science and scholarship are part of the CS, but they are to be regulated for people's protection. Rogues avoid the regulations and teach people things in the wrong order, a dangerous order.

Blue Lion wrote:Reading dangerous? oh wait you mean thinking for themselves is dangerous because people might question what the government says.

No, I mean reading is literally dangerous because it could let you open a portal to an army of winged demons, if the paper was magical.

Blue Lion wrote:I will bite what makes her stand out among all the other writers in rifts to earn the number 1 place on there list the only thing I know she is known for is writing about how the world is and a disagreement with the CS policies. How does that rate a number 1 spot.

We don't necessarily know why she has that spot, just that she does. What she's done in the past hasn't been clarified.

I'm sure she and CS opposition relish the idea that the CS is just picking on an innocent diary-writing aunty but that may not be all there is to it.

BTW: do we know that when talking of pre-Rifts history that Erin Tarn is describing it more accurately than the official CS version? Do we know what it in either version?

Blue Lion wrote:burning farms and killing farmers for not wanting to leave the land the have famed for generations because they are not what you call human

Which generations-long D-Bee farms are we talking about, and how did they acquire their land?

Blue Lion wrote:Telling some one to shove off or they can not live some where based on race is racism plain and simple and a nation that practices that is not a good nation.

The CS tells people to shove off based on citizenship. They will export non-citizen humans as well, if need be. They just don't happen to allow non-humans to be citizens at present. Could change with time if they adopt NGR's policy.

The CS are human supremists, we know it is racism, that's not worth debating here. The issue is whether or not being politically-correct and equality-focused is some kind of obligation the CS must live by or else they're bad. Must these be prioritizes over protecting the people if they conflict?

Blue Lion wrote:The way the CS was written is based off Nazi Germany and they where intended to be the bad guys. Many of the symbols the CS covered in are ones at the time they where first written are considered dark or evil.
In fact if you look many of KS major villains have skull motive going on and not just in rifts.

Skull motifs are not evil, I've already pointed out in this thread that many portions of the US army use skull imagery in their banners.

See this page and search USMC on the page.

The Coalition States are following in the proud pre-Rifts tradition of the United States Marine Corps.

Tor wrote:

Blue Lion wrote:The KKK did not gun down most blacks they just wanted them to shove off, in the beginning the Nazis did not kill all jews they just wanted them to shove off. Like the KKK and the Nazis the CS are written as intolerant racist.

The issue is where the CS is now, not where they might go later. Yes, they could get worse, but they could also get better. The CS have some measure of tolerence for D-Bees, it is just a very small amount.

Blue Lion wrote:What the CS banned on learning, um anything that conflicts with propaganda or the government does not control such as the fact they did not create the samas or that not all debees want to roast you alive. (why do think scholar classes are called rouges?)

You will not be arrested merely for saying that "all d-bees will not roast you alive" because realistically people will accept that 1% might not want to. The problem is when you start saying "most d-bees won't roast you alive" because you have no proof to back it and might mislead people into a false sense of securty.

Science and scholarship are part of the CS, but they are to be regulated for people's protection. Rogues avoid the regulations and teach people things in the wrong order, a dangerous order.

Blue Lion wrote:Reading dangerous? oh wait you mean thinking for themselves is dangerous because people might question what the government says.

No, I mean reading is literally dangerous because it could let you open a portal to an army of winged demons, if the paper was magical.

Blue Lion wrote:I will bite what makes her stand out among all the other writers in rifts to earn the number 1 place on there list the only thing I know she is known for is writing about how the world is and a disagreement with the CS policies. How does that rate a number 1 spot.

We don't necessarily know why she has that spot, just that she does. What she's done in the past hasn't been clarified.

I'm sure she and CS opposition relish the idea that the CS is just picking on an innocent diary-writing aunty but that may not be all there is to it.

BTW: do we know that when talking of pre-Rifts history that Erin Tarn is describing it more accurately than the official CS version? Do we know what it in either version?

Blue Lion wrote:burning farms and killing farmers for not wanting to leave the land the have famed for generations because they are not what you call human

Which generations-long D-Bee farms are we talking about, and how did they acquire their land?

Blue Lion wrote:Telling some one to shove off or they can not live some where based on race is racism plain and simple and a nation that practices that is not a good nation.[/qutoe]
The CS tells people to shove off based on citizenship. They will export non-citizen humans as well, if need be. They just don't happen to allow non-humans to be citizens at present. Could change with time if they adopt NGR's policy.

The CS are human supremists, we know it is racism, that's not worth debating here. The issue is whether or not being politically-correct and equality-focused is some kind of obligation the CS must live by or else they're bad. Must these be prioritizes over protecting the people if they conflict?

Blue Lion wrote:The way the CS was written is based off Nazi Germany and they where intended to be the bad guys. Many of the symbols the CS covered in are ones at the time they where first written are considered dark or evil.
In fact if you look many of KS major villains have skull motive going on and not just in rifts.

Skull motifs are not evil, I've already pointed out in this thread that many portions of the US army use skull imagery in their banners.

See this page and search USMC on the page.

The Coalition States are following in the proud pre-Rifts tradition of the United States Marine Corps.

Actually Tor go back and READ LONE STAR the conversation between Desmond Bradford, and Inspector Emerson where Desmond starts Ranting (a bit) about (Karl) aka emperor Prosek and his rewriting and suppression of history. (starting ~pg 20)

He is doing allot of dancing and out right miss information in his post.

CS suppress history and information against there propagranda the scroll threat he lists is pure smoke screen. There are not enough scrolls out there for it to be a significant threat and said scrolls would have to make it into the city state, past the dog boy screening and people that can easily be trained to check for them.

The CS by the books has purged whole comminutes of non humans for being just that so they are already at the dark place despite Tors claims other wise.

There may be uses of skull motif that are not evil, but if you will see many of the major threats created by Kevin that he wants as obvious threats use the skull motif.

Despite all claims other wise the CS are racist begets that use lethal force on those they see as different.

Erin TArin is the CS number 1 enemy because she knows the CS is suppressing the real history and is spreading not only the truth but the fact the CS Does so.

I find the world book 11(you know the world book dedicated to the CS military) does a perty good job of painting the CS force of evil.

Karl Prosek is Diabolic evil(PG 214) Joseph Prosek II Aberrant Evil(215) General Cabot Aberrat Evil General Ross Underhill Anarchist. The CS number one enemy is scrupulous (Erin tarn PG 15.) So a group led by a an evil dictator and his evil counsel with number one enemy a scrupulous writer. -That is a good sign of being evil.

ON page 48 it talks about how good CS player charters are likely to drift away from the hard core CS fanticsim.

World book 11 PG 46 "The average soldier is not much different than the average citizen. Their alignments range the full gamut of good selfish and eviel. As loyal believers in human supremacist regime of Karl Prosek, these solders are, without a doubt, misguided individuals unwittingly serving and evil cause."

There you have it the CS own book calls their cause evil. That to me proves without a doubt the CS is evil its people may not be but the CS is.

Blue_Lion wrote:I find the world book 11(you know the world book dedicated to the CS military) does a perty good job of painting the CS force of evil.

Karl Prosek is Diabolic evil(PG 214) Joseph Prosek II Aberrant Evil(215) General Cabot Aberrat Evil General Ross Underhill Anarchist. The CS number one enemy is scrupulous (Erin tarn PG 15.) So a group led by a an evil dictator and his evil counsel with number one enemy a scrupulous writer. -That is a good sign of being evil.

ON page 48 it talks about how good CS player charters are likely to drift away from the hard core CS fanticsim.

World book 11 PG 46 "The average soldier is not much different than the average citizen. Their alignments range the full gamut of good selfish and eviel. As loyal believers in human supremacist regime of Karl Prosek, these solders are, without a doubt, misguided individuals unwittingly serving and evil cause."

There you have it the CS own book calls their cause evil. That to me proves without a doubt the CS is evil its people may not be but the CS is.

Nice find there. When a book, written by the settings creator and over all canon setter, explicitly says that a cause is evil that sort of settles the question of if the cause is evil or not....

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:I find the world book 11(you know the world book dedicated to the CS military) does a perty good job of painting the CS force of evil.

Karl Prosek is Diabolic evil(PG 214) Joseph Prosek II Aberrant Evil(215) General Cabot Aberrat Evil General Ross Underhill Anarchist. The CS number one enemy is scrupulous (Erin tarn PG 15.) So a group led by a an evil dictator and his evil counsel with number one enemy a scrupulous writer. -That is a good sign of being evil.

ON page 48 it talks about how good CS player charters are likely to drift away from the hard core CS fanticsim.

World book 11 PG 46 "The average soldier is not much different than the average citizen. Their alignments range the full gamut of good selfish and eviel. As loyal believers in human supremacist regime of Karl Prosek, these solders are, without a doubt, misguided individuals unwittingly serving and evil cause."

There you have it the CS own book calls their cause evil. That to me proves without a doubt the CS is evil its people may not be but the CS is.

Nice find there. When a book, written by the settings creator and over all canon setter, explicitly says that a cause is evil that sort of settles the question of if the cause is evil or not....

Makes me wonder if all the pro CD flag wavers bothered reading the books before they drank the cool aid.

Blue_Lion wrote:Makes me wonder if all the pro CD flag wavers bothered reading the books before they drank the cool aid.

The folks who see the CS as evil do so because they are appalled at the means chosen by the CS to accomplish its goals. The folks who see the CS as good do so because they approve of the goals in spite of the means.

Both camps are reading the same books. And neither camp will be swayed by the arguments of the other because the arguments of the two camps are arguing for entirely different things.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Makes me wonder if all the pro CD flag wavers bothered reading the books before they drank the cool aid.

The folks who see the CS as evil do so because they are appalled at the means chosen by the CS to accomplish its goals. The folks who see the CS as good do so because they approve of the goals in spite of the means.

Both camps are reading the same books. And neither camp will be swayed by the arguments of the other because the arguments of the two camps are arguing for entirely different things.

--flatline

No, the evil camp says the means AND the goal are evil. And the books specifically say this. That is what Blue is talking about. When the books say, explicitly, that the CS Cause is evil, and that the CS is doing evil then its hard to say "well its not really evil, because this imaginary threat over here that we made up made me do it."
The goal of taking over the world and murdering every one that is not like you is an evil goal
The goal of eradicating all knowledge held by anyone who is not your elite is an evil goal
The goal of mass genocide is an evil goal
There is no possible world where the goals of the CS are in any way, shape, or form, are anything but evil on a massive scale.
The CS does not have the goal of 'protecting humanity' Because it already doesn't protect humanity, just the people that follow its party line, AND it does a worse job of protecting them than other nations that are not using evil methods to pursue evil goals.

And the other perspective is that those horrible things are means towards achieving the goal of protecting its citizens.

--flatline

flatline wrote:And the other perspective is that those horrible things are means towards achieving the goal of protecting its citizens.

--flatline

which they also aren't doing when they prevent their citizens from gaining knowledge that can improve their lives, just so that the leadership can keep control of them more easily.

furthermore, if that was their goal, they wouldn't have spent 20 years threatening tolkeen and then invaded when tolkeen was not doing anything to provoke them. they would have instead spent those military resources attacking something that was actually a threat.

flatline wrote:And the other perspective is that those horrible things are means towards achieving the goal of protecting its citizens.

--flatline

The argument that they are doing this for the good of their people is exactly the same claim Hitler made. That their atrocities were for the good of the Aryan people. The whole idea that others must be abused and destroyed for the betterment of a tiny minority (True CS Citizens as opposed to the non-citizen subjects) is, in and of itself, a fundamentally evil idea. The argument that evil people doing evil things for the betterment of themselves makes it less evil is to quite literally argue that evil is in fact good (As long as it is also selfish!).

Shark_Force wrote:

flatline wrote:And the other perspective is that those horrible things are means towards achieving the goal of protecting its citizens.

--flatline

which they also aren't doing when they prevent their citizens from gaining knowledge that can improve their lives, just so that the leadership can keep control of them more easily.

furthermore, if that was their goal, they wouldn't have spent 20 years threatening tolkeen and then invaded when tolkeen was not doing anything to provoke them. they would have instead spent those military resources attacking something that was actually a threat.

I'm not commenting on the merits of either argument or on whether or not the CS is using a sub-optimal strategy to achieve their goals, I'm merely explaining why there are two sides to this debate.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

flatline wrote:And the other perspective is that those horrible things are means towards achieving the goal of protecting its citizens.

--flatline

which they also aren't doing when they prevent their citizens from gaining knowledge that can improve their lives, just so that the leadership can keep control of them more easily.

furthermore, if that was their goal, they wouldn't have spent 20 years threatening tolkeen and then invaded when tolkeen was not doing anything to provoke them. they would have instead spent those military resources attacking something that was actually a threat.

I'm not commenting on the merits of either argument or on whether or not the CS is using a sub-optimal strategy to achieve their goals, I'm merely explaining why there are two sides to this debate.

--flatline

I don't know if there really is two sides honestly.
The argument for the CS seems to revolve around "Well if we take the CS propaganda as a valid analysis of what is good and evil, then the CS is the good guys" That sort of requires defining away evil.......

One thing most of you got wrong is that the Coalition isn't pro-humanity. They are nativist. If you are human from another dimension they will kill you about as fast as they would a dbee. That's why the burbs exist. Because unless you have citizenship they don't know where you're from. This is what differentiates them from say The Hammer which pro-human.
Another issue I haven't seen come up is they actively try to keep their population ignorant/uneducated. To the extent where they are performing 'book burnings' on anything prerifts. It's a cultural genocide.

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

flatline wrote:And the other perspective is that those horrible things are means towards achieving the goal of protecting its citizens.

--flatline

which they also aren't doing when they prevent their citizens from gaining knowledge that can improve their lives, just so that the leadership can keep control of them more easily.

furthermore, if that was their goal, they wouldn't have spent 20 years threatening tolkeen and then invaded when tolkeen was not doing anything to provoke them. they would have instead spent those military resources attacking something that was actually a threat.

I'm not commenting on the merits of either argument or on whether or not the CS is using a sub-optimal strategy to achieve their goals, I'm merely explaining why there are two sides to this debate.

--flatline

I don't know if there really is two sides honestly.
The argument for the CS seems to revolve around "Well if we take the CS propaganda as a valid analysis of what is good and evil, then the CS is the good guys" That sort of requires defining away evil.......

The argument for the CS leadership being Good might be roughly like that, but the argument for the CS population being overall Good is that the books (iirc) mention that the population is mostly a mix of Good and Selfish alignments.

RUE 230

This contradiction has confused and frustrated some gamers, who prefer a clear line between Good and Evil. I'm frequently asked, "So is the Coalition good or evil?" and I get a frown or head-scratching when I say, "Yes."