Pepsi Jedi wrote:SAMASzero wrote: Pepsi Jedi wrote:SAMASzero wrote:
No, that's the New German Republic. The Coalition States is only concerned with it's own power.
And all those millions of humans fighting the inhuman invaders on earth are what? A cleverly constructed ruse? The NGR IS the CS, under seige. It's not like they're friendly to Dbees. They kick them out of their nation, or at best allow them to exist as second class citizens, after they serve 20 years as cannon fodder? (( I think it's 20. I could be wrong about the number)) The Cs just doesn't use them as Cannon fodder.
The CS is NOT under siege
I know. I said, -----the NGR---- is.... the CS...., under siege.
As in the NGR and the CS are much the same but the NGR is under siege, the CS is not.
And yet the NGR, with enemies that are an
actual threat, [/quote]
The CS have actual threats too. They had Tolkeen, they have the Federation. They have Atlantis. They have Archie (( though they don't know about him)) They have the Republicans too. They have the Xits. They have the Pecos Empire. [/quote]
Tolkeen was a threat only in their own minds. The Federation hadn't made a move in almost seventy years. Altantis doesn't move at all. They don't even
know about Archie or the Republicans. The Xiticix are a problem they have consistently
ignored, and the Pecos Empire is no real threat to the Tex-Am complex.
SAMASzero wrote:
the NGR leaves magic-users alone.
Eh. Kinda sorta. They're handwaved under the "The NGR never lost it's tech so it just never thought magic was a good idea. Next!"
Exactly. It's not their thing, so they leave it (and for the most part, non-hostile practitioners) alone.
SAMASzero wrote:
It does not keep it's masses ignorant, and as bad as it treats D-Bees, it lets them speak out and prove themselves ("General" Rasheen, et al).
Yes it does teach more of it's population to read. And yes it does treat Dbee's badly. Rasheen was pretty much universally held as an 'oops' that made it through editing.. Largely ignored for years and years.. then when it didn't go away, they upped it a bit in the newer book. One DBee politican does not universally make DBees all good. They're treated as second class citizens, IF they put in years and years on the front lines fighting for the country against monsters. Otherwise they're escourted to the border and told to have a nice life.
Considering that they're under siege by armies of demons... being escorted to the border... what would that be....
...Left to fend for themselves. It's explicitly stated as such in both Triax books.
SAMASzero wrote:
And the whole Genocide thing, we can't forget that.
*Looks up* Ahhhhhh.......
Don't even
start. Both Triax books directly say otherwise. The only race the NGR is trying to wipe out is the Gargoyles, specifically because A: the Gargoyles leave them no other option, and B: as a direct counter to the Gargoyles' breeding advantage.
SAMASzero wrote:
The CS may be surrounded by people it has proclaimed to be it's enemies, but only one of those is actively hostile. The NGR on the other hand has been in an active state of war with two enemy states of comparable power for nearly a hundred years. If you were to offer to make the CS and NGR switch geographical places, the only things that would stop the Germans from saying "yes" before you finished your sentence would be national pride and the fact that they would be subjecting someone else to their situation.
Things aren't quite so bad now. the CS is sending them food and two field armies, aren't they?
Like that changes things. [/quote]
Yes. It changes things. The CS is feeding the Germans and transversing the Atlantic to put boot to ass to help them out. And.. due to that, the NGR are doing great lately. The CS didn't do it single handedly, but it didn't happen till the CS pitched in. [/quote]
No, it doesn't. The CS's aid is
helping, but the NGR is still pulling the majority of the effort and then some.
SAMASzero wrote:
Granted, the NGR is making things better themselves,
With aid from across the world, and from the New Navy too if memory serves?
The New Navy's assistance was even more limited than the CS' (I mean, they could've chipped in a bombardment on the Roosts near France's southern Med coast). For Operation Sea Storm and beyond, the NGR is still doing the lion's share of the work.
SAMASzero wrote: SAMASzero wrote:
And you'll also note that despite being in a worse situation than the Coalition States, the NGR doesn't lie to it's people, doesn't keep them ignorant and dependent, and despite treating D-Bees badly (which is improving if slowly), does not declare them Enemies of the State just for existing.
They don't lie as much. It's been a while since I've read the two NGR books but wasn't there some lies around the assassination of the leader or something? I seem to remember it but I could be mistaken. yes they teach their people to read. As for being dependant. They're under siege.... and are now getting hand outs from the CS in the form of feeding their nation and troops to help with THEIR war.
And as for the DBee situation, again, if you're escorted to the border of a nation under siege by demonic armies.... what happens then? Doesn't that mean that the NGR throw the dbees to the slavering jaws of the gargoyles and brodkil. Killing them by proxy?
They live in their own settlements along the border. Some still sympathize with the NGR, some turned to the Gargoyles/Brodkil, most just work to survive. . Explained in both books.
Soft sell, same thing. They move them out to the borders. They're undesireables. They're unwanted and at the very best they're allowed in, after they spend years in segregated military service. If they some how survive decades of being Cannon fodder they're allowed to exist as unwanted, undesired second hand citizens.
Not the same thing. D-Bees in the NGR have the
opportunity to improve their life,
in the NGR, as
part of the NGR, without a sudden and violent change in regime.
ONLY if they survive years of front line service fighting demons. lol "oh we'll let you in and treat you like a slave.. if you put in 20 years on the front lines fighting demons" Isn't THAT much better. Yes the opportunity is there. You're not wrong about that. But wow, the cost. [/quote]
I said
Possible, not
Easy. But with more effort, it can and will get easier.
SAMASzero wrote:
You think they would ever have that opportunity even near the CS as long as the Proseks are alive? Or afterwards, for that matter?
not sure... The CS had a strong anti Juicer rule, till they needed juicers. It's possible that the CS might take a page from the NGR and allow 20 years of fighting on the front lines to pay off as a slave class.... if that's how the opportunity played out. The CS have embraced and LOVE their Dog boys...
I would point out the differences between "Dangerous and Forbidden Technology" and "Declared Enemies of the State Just for Existing".
SAMASzero wrote: SAMASzero wrote:
If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't lie about the world's History.
Why? Because history matters when fighting aliens from other worlds? They maintain CONTROL by lieing about history. It has nothing to do with mankind's ongoing survival.
My point exactly.
But my point remains. They're fighting in a world full of aliens demons and worse. Yes the CS maintains control. To help keep it's nation strong. I don't agree with it, but it's a far cry from being against humanity.
I never said they were
against Humanity. I'm just saying that 80% of the Coalition's policies are geared towards keeping the Prosek family on top more than they are for the good of Humanity. The fact that so many of the nations around them (and elsewhere on the planet) do just fine without doing the same (and often in worse conditions and without the same resources and power) is especially damning.
SAMASzero wrote: Remember, history is written by the winners. Don't mistake a policy to maintain control of a people, to be 'evil'. All governments lie about history to some extent. Even if it's only egocentric representation and view point. And I never said 'ONLY concerned with Mankinds survival. They're concerned about other things as well. But mankind's survival is paramount.
No, the Prosek family's
power is paramount.
Is it? To who? only the Proseks. Not to the Coalition. To the Coalition, MANKIND is paramount.
To quote Louis XIV (allegedly): "L'etat, c'est moi". The Coalition States is a Facist state. That means a small group of people make the decisions for the state as a whole. And in this case they lie, withhold information, and misrepresent those facts they do let on to skew their people into blindly agreeing with them. [/quote]
All nations lie, with hold information and misrepresent facts to keep the people doing what those in power want. it's not a uniquely fascist thing. It just is more blatant because we, as players can look at it from the writers or reader's point of view. [/quote]
And that excuses them
how?SAMASzero wrote: SAMASzero wrote: That is why the CS went to war against Free Quebec: Prosek didn't like anyone coming out from under his sphere of influence.
The CS didn't want to lose the naval forces or the power that Quebec represented either. While 'pride' did factor in, it's not the only factor. War is never quite that simple.
Quebec didn't just decide to break off one day. It was because the Coalition as a whole, and Chi-Town (i.e. Prosek and his cronies) in particular, were trying to make them run their nation the way
they wanted them too.
Yeah.... that's kinda what a nation does.... And FQ sure didn't mind all the military power and resources that the CS poured into them, before they ducked out. If you look in the FQ book they still use alot of it, as back up or retro fit, after unveiling their new stuff, built in secret while benifiting from being a CS member state.
You think the CS just gave it to them for free?
SAMASzero wrote:
"For the last decade Chi-Town had begun to make unilateral policy decisions for the greater good of the Coalition States. Decisions that
free Quebec either disagreed with or which they felt removed from the decision making process; Consideration for the individual allied States seemed to have evaporated. They no longer seemed to be regarded or treated as equals, but as silent partners meant to do as they were
told. Fiercely independent, the people and government of Quebec saw this disregard as an insult and a violation of the people's civil liberties and the regional government's autonomy... ...Free Quebec was willing to work with Chi-Town and the other states, but they demanded to govern and defend themselves as "they" saw fit. To make their own laws, maintain their own unique military and live under their own
regional laws, traditions and moral sensibilities... ...Free Quebec began to see edicts like the dismantling of the Glitter Boys, supposedly in favor of a uniform (Chi-Town designed) army, as a thinly disguised plot to undermine their nation... ...a deliberate effort to limit and control the Quebec Army, making them reliant on Chi-Town for its defenses and military technology." (World Book 23: Free Quebec, pp. 12-13
Yes. That's what nations do. What you're describing is the same thing as if Texas wanted all the benifits of federal taxes, federal aid, federal monies and defense of the US military, but also wanted to make laws that pertained to Texas, keep their own standing army seperate from the US, and demand to be treated better than the other 49 states in the union. If Texas ever demanded to "Govern and defend themselves as "they" Saw fir, to make their own laws, their own unique military and live under their own regional laws, traditions and moral sesibilities" It would look like a total kook.
You're either a member state of the country. Or not. FQ wanted all the benifits, but not pay the dues. Doesn't work that way.
Except there was no such deal. The CS government doesn't have the same Constitution the US did (though I suspect they may claim otherwise). Of the CS States, only Chi-Town, Iron Heart, and Free Quebec had the resources to be independent. Iron Heart chose to kiss up to Chi-Town, while Free Quebec desired a more or less
equal partnership between states. They realized they weren't getting that, didn't like the deal they were expected to take and so chose to leave.
SAMASzero wrote:
"Subversive Activities involving education and the dissemination of dangerous ideas: This includes rogue scholars and scientists teaching the peasant masses and illiterate citizens of the CS (even those of the middle and lower levels) how to read, write, mathematics and pre-Rifts history (or any history that differs from the official CS version). The penalty ranges from 15 years to life imprisonment, and even death." (Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign, p. 29)
Again, yes, subversive activities are not tolerated. I don't agree with it, but it doesn't change the previous fact that 14% of grunts can read 100% of officers, the upper classes and the fact that they have a university and countless people in high tech fields.
And yes, again, with out going into a thread 50 pages long, it's widly seen as impossible that SO many people in the society can't read.
Even if you go by the book over 14% can. With the entire officer corps, and many in the upper levels of society, and all those in the high tech and medical industries.
And how does that excuse the fact that it is
illegal to teach the rest (and I remind you, vast majority) of the citizenry?
Again, watch those cuts and pastes. If they catch you doing so out of a book they haven't put out in pdf you'll get in trouble.
What I do with my books is my business, as long as I don't go putting them up on BitTorrent.
SAMASzero wrote:
To reiterate: The CS hunts people for teaching the masses (the Military and the Elite, by definition, are not "The Masses"), and their Public Enemy #1 is a History Teacher.
It hunts people for putting out what they concider dangerous information. The non approved history. yes. And Yes. That is wrong. I don't agree with it. But it doesn't change the fact that 14% of the grunts on the line can read.
You said 11% before. And it's still insufficient to make it
good. Which is the whole point of the argument. That what they are doing is a
bad thing.
SAMASzero wrote: SAMASzero wrote:
This carefully executed program of ignorance and complacency is all part of Emperor Prosek's master plan. A happy and complacent people
don't condemn their leaders or question what they take for granted. Furthermore, by keeping the people blissfully uneducated and illiterate,
they don't know what questions to ask or where to find answers for any questions they might raise. This creates blind faith and total dependency on their leaders and the infrastructure their leaders have created (government, military, communications system, etc.). Such dependency leads to an intense and desperate "need" to preserve everything they have, which in turn gives their leaders even more power over them — CS citizens are known to fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life. -- Rifts World Book 13: Lone Star, p. 68
Yep. Every nation does this in part, but yes. Do note the "Happy and complacent" and the fact that they fight tooth and nail to preserve their nation and way of life.
If they're happy with the way things are, and think themselves safe...... ?
By lying to them and telling them that everyone who doesn't look and think like them is an enemy out of their blood? And shooting anyone who "threatens" to give them the opportunity to find the truth for themselves?
SAMASzero wrote:
Yep. Seems smart, especially when you need that kinda divotion to fight literal armies of demons and worse from the rifts.
It's not NICE to manipulate people. Karl IS evil after all. Manipulation is well with in his range of behavior.
And here's the "yet below" I mentioned before.
WHAT Literal army of Demons?
Tolkeen had liteal armies of demons in the last war. They fielded the Deamonix (however it's spelled) Against human nations.
And Tolkien only got those monsters because the CS rejected their peaceful overtures and spent the next seventy years telling them "You are our enemy and someday we are coming to destroy you!". Oh, and they didn't get those demons until the Coalition changed their stance to "Okay, we're coming to kill you now!". Oh, and note that said demons were
only used to defend their territory, never to attack the Coalition States itself, and never would have been (or had been called in the first place) had the CS not been looking for a fight for the past three generations.
There's armies of demons in the demon nation of Calgary.
Which are, you guessed it,
waaaay over in Calgary getting whaled on by Larsen's Brigade (a force much smaller than the Coalition Army even post-Siege).
And, the minion war is coming.
Something nobody but the Calgary Demons knows about.
That's with out touching the evil Dbees, sploog, hourne, ect ect ect.
All of which are small potatoes in CS territory.
SAMASzero wrote:
And if it's such a smart decision, why does the NGR, which we have both established is in a far worse and more immediate situation, not see the need to do so?
Because Germany didn't have to face the "Dark ages" the same way the humans in the CS did. Germany kept going with their untra tech. They never fell so low that they had to dig their way back up.
And Kingsdale? Lazlo? Los Alamo? El Dorado? The New Empire? The Warlords of Russia? Santiago? Colombia? Let's keep it short: Of all the Human nations that clawed their way through the Dark Ages, why do so
few of them feel the need?
SAMASzero wrote: I will again point out, every government does this at least in part. Ever since governments were created. In this case (( With the CS)) The writers just come right out and point at it for the benefits of the 13 year olds playin' the game.
"In part". But that's the thing, isn't it? Sometimes the difference between Virtue and Deadly Sin is how much. And in 77 P.A., the Coalition went
too much.
I fully agree that there are different shades of gray. The CS is sometimes very dark black. But not universally so.
"There are worse guys" does not mean you aren't a bad guy yourself.
SAMASzero wrote: SAMASzero wrote:
If they were only concerned with Mankind's survival, they wouldn't have a 20-year expansion plan that involves territory held by non-hostile and even Human-controlled nations (Not just Tolkeen, they plann to take over the territories of Lazlo, New Lazlo, and Free Quebec too).
Free Quebec is old news. It WAS a member. Ceeded, there was a civil war, which is now over and they're allies. Again. You're throwing 'ONLY" out there which I didn't say. But that doesn't matter. They're expansionistic. They're reclaiming earth for humans. That they're expanding is in no way counter to that. They're starting with the territory around them. Why is Lazlo, new Lazlo in there? It's between chi town and Quebec. That's just geography. You don't have a power base, then skip over 1000s of miles of land and set up another power base. You grow out from what you have. You -expand-.
Invade, you mean. That is what it's called when you -expand- into someone else's sovereign territory.
Yes. That is what it's called when you expand into someone's territory. In the case of Rifts. 90% of the planet isn't claimed. Which makes Expansion alot easier.
And yet, there they go "expanding" into people's homes.
As for Lazlo.. well there's a problem with the "Sovereign" part. For the longest time it was called what, the place by the river? Technically most of those in Lazlo are squatting on HUMANITY's Sovereign territory. Sort of like if you found a town of illegal aliens in southern Texas on this side of the border. That town isn't suddenly it's own sovereign nation, nor is it a part of Mexico. They're squatting on US land.
in Lazlo's case, the DBees are squatting on earth.
False analogy (and a
bad one to boot). Lazlo, like most large palces on Earth has a predominately
Human population. Your "town" is at least 50% Good Old-Fashioned White People, and the majority of the Mexicans were born in that town (and thus on American soil), making them citizens, too.
Even if we assume they're squatting, there's a little thing called Adverse Possession, a.k.a. Squatter's Rights. Depending on how long the town has been there, that land could be theirs Legally. [/quote]
"Squatter's rights" don't pertain in planetary claims. They're actual LITERAL illegal Aliens.[/quote]
By whose laws? (you wanna start this mess again, we'll drag it all the way through)
Humanity (( in rifts earth)) has never agreed to the giving of land to Aliens. We were invaded and are repelling invasion.
What invasion? Invasion implies intent. 99% of the D-Bees on Earth have no
intent to invade land, they just gotta survive just as we do.
It's taken us 300 years to get out of the dark ages that the inital invasion has caused, but now Humanity is clawing it's way back up.
And? Where does that give us the right to push around people clawing their way back up from "lost several infinities from home"?
SAMASzero wrote:
Also, unlike your analogy, the CS has no legal claim to the land Lazlo is built on.
HUMANS have legal claim. It's OUR PLANET. We never agreed to Alien colonization. We were attacked during natural disasters and forced to claw our way back to dominance on our own planet.
The HUMANS of Lazlo agreed.
In a universe where everything is fair and people can just claim other planets for their own, you might have an arguement. Humanity as a whole on rifts earth highly dissagrees. They see it as OUR planet that's been invaded. Not 'Land for all'.
But they
don't disagree as a whole. In fact, the number of predominantly human communities that reject D-Bees outright are in fact very small. The CS, Free Quebec, NGR (which we've established is slowly changing that policy), Cordoba, and maybe Melbourne and Perth. Even Colombia accepts Dwarves and Elves.
SAMASzero wrote: SAMASzero wrote: SAMASzero wrote:
The Coalition States is not the Imperium of Man. They are the biggest option, not the best choice of a bad lot.
They're not the only choice by far. They are just currently in the US, the option with the best chance, at present. I don't think the CS is 100% good. Not by far. Many of their actions are horrid. Their views of DBees is governed by 300 years of fear and due to that, are often wrong. Not every DBee is evil. But after 300 years of fighting the evil ones, "Better safe than sorry. Humans first" is a mindset easily understood.
"Humans First" sure. "Genocide", "Ignorance", and "Fascism" ? Less so. Justification doesn't make your actions any less evil. It just means you're not a card-carrying member of the Baby-Eaters Club.
It depends on how you define evil. (( Which there's been threads that haven't even been close to doing so.)) By INTENT, ---MOST--- of the CS are not evil. MOST of the CS military fight the Dbees because they ---honestly--- believe that they're evil alien invaders and fighting them makes their husbands and wives and children at home safer. SOME of the CS leaders are evil, perhaps even MOST CS leaders are evil, but even in their evil, they 'help' humanity as a whole. It's a tricky dichotomy. "Evil leaders using a good populace to further their power, by protecting and growing humanity, so that they have more to control over, to help humanity, to retake the planet"
I'm sure.. 100s if not 1000s of years down the road. Should the CS "Win" and there only be humans left... things would change. But as of now, they're still the underdogs fighting the 'good' fight.
The Coalition States are, even weakened from Tolkien, still the
largest single force in North America. That's not an Underdog by any definition of the word.
They're Underdogs when compaired to all the alien invaders on the planet. Compaired to Atlantis, all of earth is an underdog. Sure if the NGR and CS and Japan, and New Navy, and England, and all the other humans on earth teamed up. They might put a DENT into the forces standing on Atlantis at any one point, but doesn't the head sploog have multiple PLANETS WORTH of back up he can rift in in short order? I think someone said 'Trillions" of troops? (( Could be wrong there. it's be a long time since i read and noted exact numbers from world book 2.))
But the CS isn't
fighting Atlantis, are they? Outside of trade and slave raiding, the Splynncryth pretty much leaves everybody on Earth to their own devices. They don't count. To be an Underdog, there must be active competition/conflict.
Yes, the CS are the most powerful human nation in North America. But globally they can't take the entire planet.
Thankfully. But that has nothing to do with North America.
SAMASzero wrote:
The individual goodness of people within a government means nothing when the government itself is doing evil.
I'd say it means alot. Especially when the government is securing mankind's existance on our own planet.
But they're not. They're not fighting the Splugorth, they're not fighting the Xiticix. The CS has done little more than take potshots at any
real threat to Humanity on Earth. They just went to mess with a predominantly Human nation that left them alone for seventy years and was friendly towards them before that. That's not "securing mankind's existence".
SAMASzero wrote: I'm not saying the People of the CS are Evil. The Government of the CS is Evil, and since they are calling the shots, that means the Coalition States are the Bad Guys.
No. It means the leaders of the CS are Evil. Again, the CS does alot of good. it's the stable government in NA for humanity on our own planet. They're allies with the NGR and are feeding the NGR and giving military support to another human nation in need. [/quote]
Nothern Gun. Manistique Imperium. Lazo, New Lazo. The Colorado Baronies. All are stable governments. For most of them, the only thing
unstable about them is the threat of, guess who?
SAMASzero wrote:
I'm sure there were plenty of crewmen on the Death Star that were good people.
And all those indipendant contractors!!
SAMASzero wrote: In fact, there's a novel about that. Did that mean the Empire was the Good Guy? Underdogs fighting the good fight to maintain order in the Galaxy?
The Rebles were the underdogs, rebelling against the Sith Lead Empire that after thousands of years had fallen into the state it was in.
Thing is... people forget. All in all. The "Empire" for all the plublicity it gets. Wasn't really in power all that long. It's easily argued less than one generation of Empire rule in the galaxy. From the time the Twins were born till Luke was 18-24ish. A long time and it sucked, but speaking in Galactic terms.. not THAT long at all. Heck Luke's in his 60s now and still going. There's been at least three major government changes since "Return of the Jedi".
Not the point. Did you not claim the CS aren't bad guys because the majority of soldiers believed in their cause?
SAMASzero wrote:
How about Gundam? The Cyclops Team sure were great guys. Ranba Ral was a great guy. Norris Packard, Yuri Kellarney, Lalah Sune.... Hell, Gundam is littered with the corpses (and parts thereof) of Zeon/Titans/OZ/ZAFT/Omni Enforcer/A-Laws/etc... troops who where good people. But as long as monsters like Ghiren Zabi, Murata Azrael, Ribbons Almark, and Jamitov Hyman were in charge of their factions, they were the Bad Guys.
Still don't know Gundam. bla bla bla is all I got out of that reference. lol Sorry.
See by above point. Belief in your cause does not save you from being a bad guy. It just makes you a more compelling one.
SAMASzero wrote:
Or how about The Avengers? Remember that guy in Germany who stood up to Loki? Would you not say he was old enough to have served in World War II? If so, which army did you think he served in?
mmmmm It's been a month or two since I saw the movie, but I think he was speakin' English? I honestly don't remember. I thought it was cool he stood up to Loki.
Or did you mean Captain A and Iron man?[/quote]
Loki: "There are no men like me."
Old Man: "There are always men like you."
And the man in question was German.
SAMASzero wrote: This is what Greying means. Nice guys on the front lines doesn't keep your side from being bad.
nor does bad guys at the top mean you're all evil. Just like Germany in WWII. Not all Germans were evil just because Hitler and the SS were.
But nonetheless, Nazi Germany had to be stopped. Though many German soldiers honestly believed that they were pulling their country from an unfair surrender (partially right) and fighting communism (how's that for ironic?) Nazi Germany was the bad guys because they had an Evil man and his cronies in charge using them to do Bad things.
in the end, you're left with the city being maned by a defense force and skeleton crew. At this point you would probably want to rig it to destruct. To keep your 'secrets' out of the CS hands. All that power pumped through the pyramids and stuff can be set to overload or whatever. 
