Forums of the Megaverse®

When it comes down to it you also have to factor in sales. Sure may find the system a little clunky yet still very useable. I also tend to buy pb products. Unfortunately for PB "use what you want ignore what you don't need" while good advice is also covered and can be done with other rpgs. That are designed better, clearer and more concise. As well as having dev come out with errata on a regular basis when needed. The company loses more and more fans to other rpgs. Posters forget they are other rpgs on the market that on the whole are doing a better job of drawing more fans to the them. The megaversal system does not exist in some sort of vacuum. Nor is the system truly universal. Gurps and the Hero System are truly universal. Both rpgs have rules covering every element that you can fine tune at the gaming table. The megaversal system I would define as portable. In that you can take a character from heroes unlimited and dump them into rifts and vice-versa. We still don't have any rules on how to make custom made occs. We take a occ from the book and add skills etc. Yet If I wanted to make my own occ/rcc it still very much a guessing game.

A streamlined edition while not bringing back every fan would be a start. I keep hearing "don't change a thing" being mentioned more than once. Yet no one offers some other solution. Beyond keeping the status quo.

OneTrikPony wrote:There may be rules patches for rifts in robotech, heroes unlimited, or palladium fantasy but I'll never get sucked into another palladium game.

I read a lot of Dead Reign last night, it was really good. I was impressed. Just saying.

OneTrikPony wrote:I have never found a rule for resolving initiative order in a combat system that has a great many attacks per turn and many attacks that require multiple attacks to complete (power punch) I still have no idea what the original intent of the developer was.

Character "winds up" it revolves to the next persons action, then the character delivers the punch on their second attack. The same is true with any action that requires two or more actions. It is best to think of Palladium combat as time as opposed to rotation even though it is a rotation based system. I could show you in about 5 minutes in person but its a bit harder to explain in a couple of minutes over a computer. This is gone into in more detail in the Game Master Guide.

OneTrikPony wrote:TI've seen it played several different ways and I have developed my own rule to cover it. (I should also mention that I was introduce to rifts by a veteren of multiple decades.)

That is what most people do, which is kinda why I think there is a lot of confusion on the matter. Some people let all their actions get thrown out at once (don't agree with that personally). Like I said, try thinking of it as a boxing match with each of your number of actions representing an "opportunity" to attack or act within that 15 second period.

OneTrikPony wrote:TI still have no idea how prowl works vs. perception or detection.

This is explained in R:UE under the Perception rules. They roll Prowl, if successful they roll 1D20, then add +1 for every 10% they have in their prowl skill. Margin of success does not effect the skill roll. If you succeed and you have 50% that is +5. Anyways, after they roll the hide check the opposing side/spotter rolls their perception check at a difficulty equal to "the prowlers" roll.

OneTrikPony wrote:Things like failure to note that FC borgs have no PE stat (#5 on KC's list of "stuff that is infuriating to newbies") is not trivial.

This is in the official errata I believe and it counts as 24. It can also be found in the bionics sourcebook along with the recovery times for receiving new cybernetics/bionics.

OneTrikPony wrote:In that specific case; further omission of any mention ANYWHERE of how the lack of a PE stat effects saves like Coma/Death is also Not Trivial.

They are 'Borgs, they cannot experience comas. They're military hardware wired for destructive purposes in a protective M.D.C. shell. They can sustain incredible injury, including destruction, and their brain will live on for hours after the fact during which time it can be placed into a new body without issue.

OneTrikPony wrote:Furthermore, leaving something like the effect of phase weapons on a CORE OCC, weather it's instakill or zero effect to be hashed out by fans on a forum is pretty much unforgivable.

It needs to be decided by the GM because it is important to how you tell a story. It should be uncommon enough as to not be an issue.

OneTrikPony wrote:On the table Speed Chart p.281 RUE can someone tell me where it says what Speed Factor is or does? This is one of Multiple terminology issues.

It is how fast you move, if you read the text right below the table you will see. Speed x5 or Speed x20 is how you determine how fast you move in a minute. Speed x5 ÷ Number of Actions, is how fast you can move either BEFORE or AFTER you take an action (you cannot move before AND after an action). Again, this is because actions represent "opportunities."

OneTrikPony wrote:Both the Combat Cyborg OCC and the Headhunter OCC, "Build-A-Borg" workshops read like they were translated from Japanese by Koreans. It took me hours of re-reading to figure out what type of borg I was building, Combat, Full conversion, Partial (lack of definition in terminology again). and which strength list to use. I still don't know which stat of which limb a FC borg is supposed to use for lifting.

Cybernetic Limbs use the standard human P.S. table, bionic limbs use the augmented table, Combat Cyborgs (and other 'Borgs with the proper upgrade) use the robotic table.

OneTrikPony wrote:Boxing makes you shoot faster?

Boxing conditions your body to be able to react faster. How you use that training is up to you.

OneTrikPony wrote:Allrightythen, Kickboxing does not?

It is primary a strike-based martial art based on delivery and technique over stringent physical conditioning like boxing.

OneTrikPony wrote:Hand to Hand Martial Arts is a set of skills that grants tertiary attack actions and maneuver options that progress with level, cool.

Wrestling and kickboxing and boxing do not? But martial arts lets you aim and shoot a rifle or a machinegun faster?[/quote]

Refer to the answer in boxing.

OneTrikPony wrote:But W.P. Rifles doesn't? But if I'm an expert martial artist and boxer and kick boxer and wrestler I can't operate a SAMAS or terrain hopper with haptic interfaces?

Please explain, I am unfamiliar with your terminology there my friend?

OneTrikPony wrote:"And which Modern weapon proficiency do I use Again?" This was my most common quote from my first half-dozen sessions.

I've never had anyone ask this?

OneTrikPony wrote:WP Handguns: a familiarity with all type of projectile firing handguns including revolvers and pistols. [but not the E pistols that look feel and operate exactly like old west revolvers]

No they don't, not really. Yes, essentially you point and shoot but there is no kickpack, aiming/maintance/reloading ammo all work differently. Calibrating the weapon would be different, etc. Folks forget that a lot so don't feel bad. Remember, you're not wielding a "laser revolver" you're wielding a super-science gun that they made to look like a "laser revolver" because they thought that would be "cool." All M.D. weaponry is advanced technology beyond our current ability to comprehend. If "in real life" I handed you a Wilk's Laser pistol you'd have no idea how to turn it on or how to get it to work properly. It'd be like someone from the 1800 being given an iphone. Its so far beyond anything we have today.

OneTrikPony wrote:WP Heavy Military Weapons: familiarity with military hardware including grenade launchers, morters, machineguns and missile launchers and light MD weapon turrets. (but not the machineguns and missile launchers and MD weapon turrets that are a "key part" of giant robots or might be held in the hand of power armor.)

Nope. They're a different type of weapon. Again, its not just "point and shoot" its knowing how to point and shoot such exotic/advanced weapons and utilize the inbuilt weapon systems. Remember, right now a lot of modern military weapons engineers are starting to use computers in their firearms and Rifts Earth is set (400-500?) years in the future.

OneTrikPony wrote:"AAAAAAAARGH! W,T,F,?" my second most common quote during my first half dozen sessions. Rifts has a major problem with terminology hanging in the breeze; Shots, Bursts, Blasts, Short Bursts, Pulses, Long Bursts, Multiple pulse Bursts.

Let me see if I can help.

OneTrikPony wrote:NG-L5 laser rifle; Each blast counts as one attack

Shooting the gun (however so you use it) counts as one action.

OneTrikPony wrote:NG-101 rail gun; a burst is 30 rounds, each burst counts as 1 melee attack

This firearm can only shoot in bursts (its weapon will list how many rounds this uses). This only counts as one attack. Burst is defined as when you fire multiple rounds in a single attack.

OneTrikPony wrote:NG-202 rail gun; a burst is 40 rounds, Each Blast counts as 1 melee attack

Burst-fire with this weapon expends 40 rounds and counts as one attack. You cannot use single fire with it. No single round attacks.

OneTrikPony wrote:L-20 Laser rifle; 6d6 per multiple pulse Burst, each blast counts as one melee attack

Again, this weapon rapid fires bursts of white-hot plasma death. It cannot shoot a single "beam" it can only burst attack. Each discharge counts as one attack.

OneTrikPony wrote:from page 329 (59 pages Later in the SKILLS section!)
Light or medium calibur machine gun: 5d6 sdc per single shot, 1d6x10 per short burst (counts as 1 melee attack), 2d6x10+20 per long burst, counts as 3 melee attacks. (and my favorite punchline) Note: can only fire bursts.

As listed above. Except you can perform a Long Burst, which essentially means you "hold down the trigger" and repeatedly shoot something for 3 consecutive attacks with a single attack roll.

For instance:
Franky pulls the machine gun on Joey and opens up with a long burst... (action 1 expended; Franky is now shooting at Joey)
Joey uses a hand gun to fire back at Franky. (action 1 expended; Joey fires the gun)
Franky chooses not to dodge because he is still shooting Joey (he takes a few points of damage but powers through it!)
Franky continues to unload the machine gun (action 2 expended; the strike/damage rolls have still not been rolled but this entire time Joey "is" being shot at)
Joey fires again (action 2 expended; this time Joey misses - maybe its the fact he's doing the dance macabre on the receiving end of a machine gun)
Franky "finishes" his long burst (action 3 expended; Franky rolls a strike to see how accurate he was and then Joey rolls his dodge; if the attack is successful Joey takes 2d6x10+20 points of S.D.C.!)

Long Bursts get complicated if the target moves out of range or gets behind partial cover (costs the attacker an extra attack per melee to strike if its possible at all) and it leaves the attacker out in the open and burns though a lot of ammo but if you understand that (as I mentioned above) actions are not revolving turns so much as moments in a turn at which the character can take the opportunity to act you'll see how this works. Yes, the character being shot at is presumably taking hits during the course of those 3 attacks but for simplicity and the sake of game balance you just do "more damage" when the attack is "finished" and Franky is left standing there breathing heavily with the end of his machine gun smoking.

OneTrikPony wrote:The Really awesome part is that none of the weapons listed above are weapons that anyone would give to a character by choice. You have to search through at least 6 splat books.

Or just read the Rifts: Game Master Guide that lists all this information.

OneTrikPony wrote:the system is incomplete.

[/quote]

*clicks the disagree button*

Nah, you just have to know where to look and take the time to read the books. I hope I have been of some help.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

OneTrikPony wrote:"And which Modern weapon proficiency do I use Again?" This was my most common quote from my first half-dozen sessions.

I've never had anyone ask this?

What do you use for a NE-4 Plasma Cartridge Pistol?

Killer Cyborg wrote:What do you use for a NE-4 Plasma Cartridge Pistol?

Plasma = Energy.
Pistol = Pistol.

Energy + Pistol = Energy Pistol. So... W.P. Energy Pistol?

Am I missing something here?

Akashic Soldier wrote:

OneTrikPony wrote:There may be rules patches for rifts in robotech, heroes unlimited, or palladium fantasy but I'll never get sucked into another palladium game.

I read a lot of Dead Reign last night, it was really good. I was impressed. Just saying.

OneTrikPony wrote:I have never found a rule for resolving initiative order in a combat system that has a great many attacks per turn and many attacks that require multiple attacks to complete (power punch) I still have no idea what the original intent of the developer was.

Character "winds up" it revolves to the next persons action, then the character delivers the punch on their second attack. The same is true with any action that requires two or more actions. It is best to think of Palladium combat as time as opposed to rotation even though it is a rotation based system. I could show you in about 5 minutes in person but its a bit harder to explain in a couple of minutes over a computer. This is gone into in more detail in the Game Master Guide.

So I have to buy a second book to learn how the rules work that should have been explained in the main rule book. And this not not broken how?

OneTrikPony wrote:TI've seen it played several different ways and I have developed my own rule to cover it. (I should also mention that I was introduce to rifts by a veteren of multiple decades.)

That is what most people do, which is kinda why I think there is a lot of confusion on the matter. Some people let all their actions get thrown out at once (don't agree with that personally). Like I said, try thinking of it as a boxing match with each of your number of actions representing an "opportunity" to attack or act within that 15 second period.

And we should not resolve this by reorganizing the rules why?

OneTrikPony wrote:TI still have no idea how prowl works vs. perception or detection.

This is explained in R:UE under the Perception rules. They roll Prowl, if successful they roll 1D20, then add +1 for every 10% they have in their prowl skill. Margin of success does not effect the skill role. If you succeed and you have 50% that is +5. Anyways, after they roll the hide check the opposing side/spotter rolls their perception check at a difficulty equal to "the prowlers" roll.
Those are the clunkiest perception rules I have seen. hands down.

OneTrikPony wrote:Things like failure to note that FC borgs have no PE stat (#5 on KC's list of "stuff that is infuriating to newbies") is not trivial.

This is in the official errata I believe and it counts as 24. It can also be found in the bionics sourcebook along with the recovery times for receiving new cybernetics/bionics.

OneTrikPony wrote:In that specific case; further omission of any mention ANYWHERE of how the lack of a PE stat effects saves like Coma/Death is also Not Trivial.

They are 'Borgs, they cannot experience comas. They're military hardware wired for destructive purposes in a protective M.D.C. shell. They can sustain incredible injury, including destruction, and their brain will live on for hours after the fact during which time it can be placed into a new body without issue.

OneTrikPony wrote:Furthermore, leaving something like the effect of phase weapons on a CORE OCC, weather it's instakill or zero effect to be hashed out by fans on a forum is pretty much unforgivable.

It needs to be decided by the GM because it is important to how you tell a story. It should be uncommon enough as to not be an issue.
Should be covered in the rules. Not left to the GM. Leaving it to the GM is what gets us 7 page arguments on how something works.

OneTrikPony wrote:On the table Speed Chart p.281 RUE can someone tell me where it says what Speed Factor is or does? This is one of Multiple terminology issues.

It is how fast you move, if you read the text right below the table you will see. Speed x5 or Speed x20 is how you determine how fast you move in a minute. Speed x5 ÷ Number of Actions, is how fast you can move either BEFORE or AFTER you take an action (you cannot move before AND after an action). Again, this is because actions represent "opportunities."

And where do they actually define speed factor?

OneTrikPony wrote:Both the Combat Cyborg OCC and the Headhunter OCC, "Build-A-Borg" workshops read like they were translated from Japanese by Koreans. It took me hours of re-reading to figure out what type of borg I was building, Combat, Full conversion, Partial (lack of definition in terminology again). and which strength list to use. I still don't know which stat of which limb a FC borg is supposed to use for lifting.

Cybernetic Limbs use the standard human P.S. table, bionic limbs use the augmented table, Combat Cyborgs (and other 'Borgs with the proper upgrade) use the robotic table.

OneTrikPony wrote:Boxing makes you shoot faster?

Boxing conditions your body to be able to react faster. How you use that training is up to you.

Having actually boxed and having actually shot rifles and pistols. No boxing would not be any help in shooting faster the skills are not even remotely related. One is a fine motor skill(Pistol) the other is a gross motor skills(Boxing) One will help you throw more punches. Which will not improve ones ability to shoot quickly at all. Period.

OneTrikPony wrote:Allrightythen, Kickboxing does not?

It is primary a strike-based martial art based on delivery and technique over stringent physical conditioning like boxing.

No really it is not. Boxing and kickboxing are both stringent physical conditioners and kick boxing is more so. Kickboxing would not make one shoot any faster. Niether would boxing. Sorry. You are just flat out wrong on this.

OneTrikPony wrote:Hand to Hand Martial Arts is a set of skills that grants tertiary attack actions and maneuver options that progress with level, cool.

Wrestling and kickboxing and boxing do not? But martial arts lets you aim and shoot a rifle or a machinegun faster?

Refer to the answer in boxing.
there is no answer in boxing. It really should be treated like Martial arts. Seeing as how it is a martial art.

OneTrikPony wrote:But W.P. Rifles doesn't? But if I'm an expert martial artist and boxer and kick boxer and wrestler I can't operate a SAMAS or terrain hopper with haptic interfaces?

Please explain, I am unfamiliar with your terminology there my friend?

The suit moves with you. IE you put it on and it moves where you do.

OneTrikPony wrote:"And which Modern weapon proficiency do I use Again?" This was my most common quote from my first half-dozen sessions.

I've never had anyone ask this?

And Yet everyone else does. You strike me as someone with their fingers in their ears going no no no the systems is fine. Don't make it better. don't make it easier to use....

OneTrikPony wrote:WP Handguns: a familiarity with all type of projectile firing handguns including revolvers and pistols. [but not the E pistols that look feel and operate exactly like old west revolvers]

No they don't, not really. Yes, essentially you point and shoot but there is no kickpack, aiming/maintance/reloading ammo all work differently. Calibrating the weapon would be different, etc. Folks forget that a lot so don't feel bad. Remember, you're not wielding a "laser revolver" you're wielding a super-science gun that they made to look like a "laser revolver" because they thought that would be "cool." All M.D. weaponry is advanced technology beyond our current ability to comprehend. If "in real life" I handed you a Wilk's Laser pistol you'd have no idea how to turn it on or how to get it to work properly. It'd be like someone from the 1800 being given an iphone. Its so far beyond anything we have today.

No really they do. There are not going to be a whole bunch of buttons on the side. The safety and the on off switch are the same thing. Point and shoot. Actually easier than a pistol because there is no kick. So no not like handing someone in 1800 a iPhone. Maintenance might be complicated Though I doubt it.

OneTrikPony wrote:WP Heavy Military Weapons: familiarity with military hardware including grenade launchers, morters, machineguns and missile launchers and light MD weapon turrets. (but not the machineguns and missile launchers and MD weapon turrets that are a "key part" of giant robots or might be held in the hand of power armor.)

Nope. They're a different type of weapon. Again, its not just "point and shoot" its knowing how to point and shoot such exotic/advanced weapons and utilize the inbuilt weapon systems. Remember, right now a lot of modern military weapons engineers are starting to use computers in their firearms and Rifts Earth is set (400-500?) years in the future.

The computers make using the weapons easier not harder. It is not going to be much different than a machine gun in a tripod. Military hardware has been steadily getting easier to use.

OneTrikPony wrote:"AAAAAAAARGH! W,T,F,?" my second most common quote during my first half dozen sessions. Rifts has a major problem with terminology hanging in the breeze; Shots, Bursts, Blasts, Short Bursts, Pulses, Long Bursts, Multiple pulse Bursts.

Let me see if I can help.

Please point to where in the game this is defined? Why do we need so many different ondefined terms? Shouldn't we clean that up so that the rules are clearer?

OneTrikPony wrote:NG-L5 laser rifle; Each blast counts as one attack

Shooting the gun (however so you use it) counts as one action.
And where do they define actons?

OneTrikPony wrote:NG-101 rail gun; a burst is 30 rounds, each burst counts as 1 melee attack

This firearm can only shoot in bursts (its weapon will list how many rounds this uses). This only counts as one attack. Burst is defined as when you fire multiple rounds in a single attack.

OneTrikPony wrote:NG-202 rail gun; a burst is 40 rounds, Each Blast counts as 1 melee attack

Burst-fire with this weapon expends 40 rounds and counts as one attack. You cannot use single fire with it. No single round attacks.

OneTrikPony wrote:L-20 Laser rifle; 6d6 per multiple pulse Burst, each blast counts as one melee attack

Again, this weapon rapid fires bursts of white-hot plasma death. It cannot shoot a single "beam" it can only burst attack. Each discharge counts as one attack.

OneTrikPony wrote:from page 329 (59 pages Later in the SKILLS section!)
Light or medium calibur machine gun: 5d6 sdc per single shot, 1d6x10 per short burst (counts as 1 melee attack), 2d6x10+20 per long burst, counts as 3 melee attacks. (and my favorite punchline) Note: can only fire bursts.

As listed above. Except you can perform a Long Burst, which essentially means you "hold down the trigger" and repeatedly shoot something for 3 consecutive attacks with a single attack roll.

For instance:
Franky pulls the machine gun on Joey and opens up with a long burst... (action 1 expended; Franky is now shooting at Joey)
Joey uses a hand gun to fire back at Franky. (action 1 expended; Joey fires the gun)
Franky chooses not to dodge because he is still shooting Joey (he takes a few points of damage but powers through it!)
Franky continues to unload the machine gun (action 2 expended; the strike/damage rolls have still not been rolled but this entire time Joey "is" being shot at)
Joey fires again (action 2 expended; this time Joey misses - maybe its the fact he's doing the dance macabre on the receiving end of a machine gun)
Franky "finishes" his long burst (action 3 expended; Franky rolls a strike to see how accurate he was and then Joey rolls his dodge; if the attack is successful Joey takes 2d6x10+20 points of S.D.C.!)

Long Bursts get complicated if the target moves out of range or gets behind partial cover (costs the attacker an extra attack per melee to strike if its possible at all) and it leaves the attacker out in the open and burns though a lot of ammo but if you understand that (as I mentioned above) actions are not revolving turns so much as moments in a turn at which the character can take the opportunity to act you'll see how this works. Yes, the character being shot at is presumably taking hits during the course of those 3 attacks but for simplicity and the sake of game balance you just do "more damage" when the attack is "finished" and Franky is left standing there breathing heavily with the end of his machine gun smoking.

OneTrikPony wrote:The Really awesome part is that none of the weapons listed above are weapons that anyone would give to a character by choice. You have to search through at least 6 splat books.

Or just read the Rifts: Game Master Guide that lists all this information.

OneTrikPony wrote:the system is incomplete.

[/quote]

*clicks the disagree button*

Nah, you just have to know where to look and take the time to read the books. I hope I have been of some help. [/quote]
And again you proved our point. One should be able to EASILY find these rules. One should not need to have someone show them all the weird places rules are put.
78% of the people who have replied to the survey think something needs to be done. You don't and you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as wrong. Even though you have in the past admitted to having trouple here on the boards with the system. I am going to go with the majority that agree with me that there are SERIOUS problems with how the game is written. Not with how the game is intended to be played but with how the rules are communicated. Any time you have 7 page long fights over how the rules work and no one can actually prove which way is the right way because the rules don't say in a manner that leaves no doubt you have a problem. These books have the worst organization I have ever seen. I tried to GM once. I gave up after one session because the organization was so bad I couldn't find what I needed when I needed it. And trying to grab a quick enemy is a pain in the ass. This would be a good place to throw in a rhinobuffalo. Crap i have to roll it up. There is not a way to easily just grab a monster because none of them ae actually ready to go. Being able to roll the monsters is great. It would be good to have a straight stat block ready to go as well.

Rules are spread all over the book and never in a thoughtful manner.

and I am sorry you are flat out wrong. The rules need clarified. Just because you don't think so does not change the fact that most people find the rules difficult to use.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:What do you use for a NE-4 Plasma Cartridge Pistol?

Plasma = Energy.
Pistol = Pistol.

Energy + Pistol = Energy Pistol. So... W.P. Energy Pistol?

Am I missing something here?

Can't say for certain.
WP Energy Pistol covers energy pistols, and plasm is a kind of energy in Rifts.
But WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons covers plasma ejectors, and the weapon does eject plasma.

I've seen it called both ways.

Of course, there's the semantic debate of where or not all weapons that fire plasm are "plasma ejectors," but since the term is never defined, there's no way to be sure.
So every GM goes with what they consider to be common sense, and a lot of them end up disagreeing with each other.

Other questions I've seen come up is whether the Big Bore shotguns require WP Shotgun, or WP Heavy Military Weapons.
Same with the Triax Pump rifle and pistol; are they Heavy Military Weapons, or WP Pistol and Rifle, or what?
And others stuff too.

Again, everybody tends to think that it's pretty obvious where each weapon goes... but again, a lot of people disagree.

It's the kind of thing that could be easily fixed just by spelling out in the weapon description which skill is necessary... but Palladium doesn't bother, so people get confused.

Also, a lot of people ask about chainsaws.

Daeglan wrote:and I am sorry you are flat out wrong. Yes maintenance of an energy pistol I may not be able to do. But I am damn sure I could figure out how to turn it on and shoot. It might take me a little bit to figure out the different characteristics in how it behaves when shooting in relation to a slug thower. It most certainly is not as complicated to shoot as a iPhone is to use. Sorry. On off switch and a trigger. What more do you really think there would be on a laser pistol?

W.P. does not represent being able to "fire it" it represents being proficient in its use and having a basic understanding of its functions. Also, every generation humanity believed that they were at the pinnacle of scientific and technological achievement. Yet every generation we are proven wrong.

So say that I am wrong as much as you like and ignore my post or try to push it back into the middle of the thread so no one else sees it *gasp* but I am not wrong anymore than my players are wrong or my game is wrong. Just because folks don't like something doesn't mean its flawed or broken, especially when its been expressed that these same people do not look/prepare their information ahead of time before their games... just like it explains to do in the R:GMG! That is kind of like complaining monopoly doesn't work because you have not set up the board.

The ladder to dig a hole example from my earlier post stands. Accept it or don't, I don't care, but your stark denial of my reality does not change my opinion. I've admitted I had difficulty finding things when I started out but instead of ***** and moaning, I taught myself to use the Quickfind and all my problems were pretty much resolved. Don't misrepresent my words, that irkes me. I won't report you or anything but just for civilities sake PLEASE don't do it again.

Anyways, the only reason I even bothered replying was because of the guys signature. Clearly he is one of the few rare folks on the board that want to learn and understand and not just ***** and bicker. I respect that a lot.

Can't say for certain.
WP Energy Pistol covers energy pistols, and plasm is a kind of energy in Rifts.
But WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons covers plasma ejectors, and the weapon does eject plasma.

I've seen it called both ways.

Of course, there's the semantic debate of where or not all weapons that fire plasm are "plasma ejectors," but since the term is never defined, there's no way to be sure.

Plasma ejector is a shoulder mounted thing most of the time isn't it?

So every GM goes with what they consider to be common sense, and a lot of them end up disagreeing with each other.

People will be people.

Other questions I've seen come up is whether the Big Bore shotguns require WP Shotgun, or WP Heavy Military Weapons.

They're shotguns.

Same with the Triax Pump rifle and pistol; are they Heavy Military Weapons, or WP Pistol and Rifle, or what?
And others stuff too.

In my "flawed" and "insane" opinion (since I know a lot of people disagree with me for saying apples are a fruit) if something is called a "pistol" or a "rifle" most of the time its going to fall within such categories. If it shoots ENERGY its probably an energy rifle and if it shoots ROCKETS its probably a heavy military weapon. It really is common sense and its shameful that everything needs a tag.

Again, everybody tends to think that it's pretty obvious where each weapon goes... but again, a lot of people disagree.

Its why I don't bother posting quotes from the books anymore, you know that. Its more about "winning" and "ego" than helping anyone understand or resolve a problem/complication. I don't have time for that.

It's the kind of thing that could be easily fixed just by spelling out in the weapon description which skill is necessary... but Palladium doesn't bother, so people get confused.

People just need to take a step back and think things through a little more instead of over-thinking them or getting carried away or getting on a soapbox when something doesn't meet their expectations.

Also, a lot of people ask about chainsaws.

The cybersnatcher's weapon of choice is the chainsaw and they use W.P. Axe so I have started to assume that it uses W.P. Axe. This is a house rule but it is very possible that these weapons do not have a weapon proficiency of their own. After all, even the juicer weapons are mostly for show, bravado, and the mess they make.

Akashic Soldier wrote:Plasma ejector is a shoulder mounted thing most of the time isn't it?

Can't really say; the term is never defined.

Other questions I've seen come up is whether the Big Bore shotguns require WP Shotgun, or WP Heavy Military Weapons.

They're shotguns.

See, I'd say that they're grenade launchers that only look like shotguns, therefore they'd go under Heavy Military Weapons.
Either call is legit, since things are never officially categorized.

Same with the Triax Pump rifle and pistol; are they Heavy Military Weapons, or WP Pistol and Rifle, or what?
And others stuff too.

In my "flawed" and "insane" opinion (since I know a lot of people disagree with me for saying apples are a fruit) if something is called a "pistol" or a "rifle" most of the time its going to fall within such categories. If it shoots ENERGY its probably an energy rifle and if it shoots ROCKETS its probably a heavy military weapon. It really is common sense and its shameful that everything needs a tag.

Well, there's a distinction between rockets and grenades.
But that's why everything needs a tag: that way, we're all on the same page, seeing things from the same angle.

It's the kind of thing that could be easily fixed just by spelling out in the weapon description which skill is necessary... but Palladium doesn't bother, so people get confused.

People just need to take a step back and think things through a little more instead of over-thinking them or getting carried away or getting on a soapbox when something doesn't meet their expectations.

Not sure how that would help with different Rifts players interpreting things the same way.

Also, a lot of people ask about chainsaws.

The cybersnatcher's weapon of choice is the chainsaw and they use W.P. Axe so I have started to assume that it uses W.P. Axe. This is a house rule but it is very possible that these weapons do not have a weapon proficiency of their own. After all, even the juicer weapons are mostly for show, bravado, and the mess they make.

Good call. I wouldn't have thought of it, though.
I just invented WP Chainsaw, which lets you use the weapon with no penalties.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Can't really say; the term is never defined.

Look at the weapon and read the description; is it a hand held pistol or a shoulder mounted anti-infantry weapon? Again, very self-explanatory.

See, I'd say that they're grenade launchers that only look like shotguns, therefore they'd go under Heavy Military Weapons.

Except for the fact that their ammunition is categorized as the same as shotgun rounds and can be used in shotguns and they can fire exotic shotgun rounds. There's more on this in Rifts Black Market.

Either call is legit, since things are never officially categorized.

This is kind of like the way Trident can be used by W.P. Forked, W.P. Trident, W.P. Polearm, or W.P. Targeting. Each a different application for the same weapon. It is possible it is BOTH but I honestly think it is best represented by W.P. Shotgun. Its rounds function very much like a grenade but they are not grenades.

Well, there's a distinction between rockets and grenades.
But that's why everything needs a tag: that way, we're all on the same page, seeing things from the same angle.

Its in the name or the description. I'm not sure I know of anything that doesn't really explain what its ammo is.

Good call. I wouldn't have thought of it, though.
I just invented WP Chainsaw, which lets you use the weapon with no penalties.

Rifts is a thinking man's game and it is the game of comparisons, circumstance, and situation. I merely "researched" the chainsaw in Rifts by flipping through my books and reaching anything that had a picture of a chainsaw near it and in about an hour or two it lead me to the Cybersnatcher. It wasn't a magic solution but now I know about all sorts of chainsaws from 'Borg weapons to utility saws. Drills too, but that is a story for another time.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Can't really say; the term is never defined.

Look at the weapon and read the description; is it a hand held pistol or a shoulder mounted anti-infantry weapon? Again, very self-explanatory.

Look at the definition of "ejector."
Is it necessarily a shoulder-mounted weapon?

See, I'd say that they're grenade launchers that only look like shotguns, therefore they'd go under Heavy Military Weapons.

Except for the fact that their ammunition is categorized as the same as shotgun rounds and can be used in shotguns and they can fire exotic shotgun rounds. There's more on this in Rifts Black Market.

"The Bandit BigBore looks like a sawed-off shotgun and fires a large, high explosive shell."
The fact that it only "looks like" a shotgun indicate that it's not one.
And I don't see anything about the ammunition being the same as shotgun rounds, nor about it being used in shotguns, nor anything about what gauge the rounds would be.
The fact that it has a Horror Factor, while a 12-gauge does not, indicates that it's a bigger, scarier weapon.

But would you really rather argue about this? Or maybe just admit that there are multiple valid interpretations, and that more official clarity on the subject would be helpful?

Either call is legit, since things are never officially categorized.

This is kind of like the way Trident can be used by W.P. Forked, W.P. Trident, W.P. Polearm, or W.P. Targeting. Each a different application for the same weapon. It is possible it is BOTH but I honestly think it is best represented by W.P. Shotgun. Its rounds function very much like a grenade but they are not grenades.

I don't think that the weapons make a lick of sense no matter how I look at them, really.
But that's another subject.

Well, there's a distinction between rockets and grenades.
But that's why everything needs a tag: that way, we're all on the same page, seeing things from the same angle.

Its in the name or the description. I'm not sure I know of anything that doesn't really explain what its ammo is.

"Triax Pump Rifle" doesn't really tell us what WP it uses, since there isn't a "Pump Rifle" WP.
I guess you could go with Rifle... but I doubt that there's any rifling in that barrel.

Good call. I wouldn't have thought of it, though.
I just invented WP Chainsaw, which lets you use the weapon with no penalties.

Rifts is a thinking man's game and it is the game of comparisons, circumstance, and situation. I merely "researched" the chainsaw in Rifts by flipping through my books and reaching anything that had a picture of a chainsaw near it and in about an hour or two it lead me to the Cybersnatcher. It wasn't a magic solution but now I know about all sorts of chainsaws from 'Borg weapons to utility saws. Drills too, but that is a story for another time.

I agree that Rifts is a thinking-man's game.
I just don't think that means we should have to spend an hour of research in order to retro-engineer what kind of WP should go with what weapon.

No it really is not self explanatory. Hence why people come to different conclusions. Why not just have the weapon description say what skill it uses like every other game system does?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Look at the definition of "ejector."
Is it necessarily a shoulder-mounted weapon?

This is why we don't get on so well anymore KC. What was the rest of my statement? You completely neglected it to make what is ultimately an invalid point. Again, if the weapon description explains that it is a pistol or a shoulder mounted rocket launcher than you should be able to understand that it is either a hand pistol or a rocket launcher. They should not have to add another line of text with Use W.P.: Handgun on every single weapon. If you read the description, you should be able to understand what the weapon is.

"The Bandit BigBore looks like a sawed-off shotgun and fires a large, high explosive shell."[/size]
But would you really rather argue about this? Or maybe just admit that there are multiple valid interpretations, and that more official clarity on the subject would be helpful?

Neither. I will administer my powers of reason and common sense and stand by the conclusion that if something is called a "shotgun" in its description than regardless if it shoots broken glass, fireballs, or exploding orbs with tiny pixies imprisoned within... its still a freaking shotgun.

I don't think that the weapons make a lick of sense no matter how I look at them, really.
But that's another subject.

Well a weapon is a tool people invented to be able to kill their fellow men. People (or in some cases D-Bees) then perfected many different ways of using these tools to kill in more efficient and deadly methods. In accordance with progress scientists then invented superior weapons to augment these preexisting combat styles and systems even further. Its pretty simple really. You know... unless you over think it and want rules for dulling a weapons edge and scientific formulas for how fantasy weapons function.

"Triax Pump Rifle" doesn't really tell us what WP it uses, since there isn't a "Pump Rifle" WP.
I guess you could go with Rifle... but I doubt that there's any rifling in that barrel.

Do you realize that this is a fantasy science fiction game, right? I'm not trying to be condescending here but honestly its either a "rifle" or an "energy rifle" dependent on what it fires. I believe it uses an e-clip so its PROBABLY an energy rifle but I am not going to look it up. Such trivialities are a waste of both of our time.

I agree that Rifts is a thinking-man's game.
I just don't think that means we should have to spend an hour of research in order to retro-engineer what kind of WP should go with what weapon.

Then don't. What next are folks going to be ***** that there is no W.P. for barbed tire-iron or jury-rigged flame throwers? (W.P. Flame Thrower says military flame throwers so it doesn't count for my super soaker! The game is broken! The game is FLAWED!!)

We're talking about a freaking chainsaw here.
Its not like we're missing W.P. Sword. It is an OBSCURE weapon. If youre making characters with OBSCURE things, than be prepared to go to obscure places.

It's good to see so much of the same old same old...

The usual suspects essentially declaring anyone who doesn't "get it" the way they do isn't as intelligent as they MUST be and nothing needs to be changed since they understand it so it MUST be the fault of the person who doesn't understand it. Playing a game for 20 years does NOT mean you know it any better than the person who has played it for 20 days.


The rules LITERALLY AS WRITTEN are broken by way of poor organization, poor compilation and poor definition.

This does not mean they cannot be MADE to work and the fact is most of us experienced gamers DO in fact make them work but not because the rules themselves AS WRITTEN actually work.

We make them work because as experienced gamers we subconsciously apply what we think is the logical intention of the rules as written thsu we automatically compensate for the "breaks". Without that subconscious application of said logical intention of the rules as written we could not make them work. The problem arises when different people have a different "logical intention of the rules as written". That is what creates the vast majority of the rules arguments on these very forums. Hell Kevin himself has ruled multiple ways on the same damned rule on these forums himself.

If the rules were properly defined, organized, compiled and made clear and concise we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Look at the definition of "ejector."
Is it necessarily a shoulder-mounted weapon?

This is why we don't get on so well anymore KC. What was the rest of my statement? You completely neglected it to make what is ultimately an invalid point. Again, if the weapon description explains that it is a pistol or a shoulder mounted rocket launcher than you should be able to understand that it is either a hand pistol or a rocket launcher. They should not have to add another line of text with Use W.P.: Handgun on every single weapon. If you read the description, you should be able to understand what the weapon is.

"The Bandit BigBore looks like a sawed-off shotgun and fires a large, high explosive shell."[/size]
But would you really rather argue about this? Or maybe just admit that there are multiple valid interpretations, and that more official clarity on the subject would be helpful?

Neither. I will administer my powers of reason and common sense and stand by the conclusion that if something is called a "shotgun" in its description than regardless if it shoots broken glass, fireballs, or exploding orbs with tiny pixies imprisoned within... its still a freaking shotgun.

That is an assumption. it is not an actual rule. I have seen lots of things called the wrong thing in real life. For example a Red Tail Hawk is not actually a hawk. it is a buzzard.

I don't think that the weapons make a lick of sense no matter how I look at them, really.
But that's another subject.

Well a weapon is a tool people invented to be able to kill their fellow men. People (or in some cases D-Bees) then perfected many different ways of using these tools to kill in more efficient and deadly methods. In accordance with progress scientists then invented superior weapons to augment these preexisting combat styles and systems even further. Its pretty simple really. You know... unless you over think it and want rules for dulling a weapons edge and scientific formulas for how fantasy weapons function.

And you made an incorrect assumption here. He is not talking about what a weapon is. But the rules on weapons.

"Triax Pump Rifle" doesn't really tell us what WP it uses, since there isn't a "Pump Rifle" WP.
I guess you could go with Rifle... but I doubt that there's any rifling in that barrel.

Do you realize that this is a fantasy science fiction game, right? I'm not trying to be condescending here but honestly its either a "rifle" or an "energy rifle" dependent on what it fires. I believe it uses an e-clip so its PROBABLY an energy rifle but I am not going to look it up. Such trivialities are a waste of both of our time.

Another assumption. But not stated in the rules.

I agree that Rifts is a thinking-man's game.
I just don't think that means we should have to spend an hour of research in order to retro-engineer what kind of WP should go with what weapon.

Then don't. What next are folks going to be ***** that there is no W.P. for barbed tire-iron or jury-rigged flame throwers? (W.P. Flame Thrower says military flame throwers so it doesn't count for my super soaker! The game is broken! The game is FLAWED!!)

We're talking about a freaking chainsaw here.
Its not like we're missing W.P. Sword. It is an OBSCURE weapon. If youre making characters with OBSCURE things, than be prepared to go to obscure places.

Maybe the book with the obsure weapon in it should have the WP for said weapon in it. Hell maybe if we just included a single line that said uses the X WP. We wouldn't need to discuss it. Hence why we want to clarify the rules. People come to different conclusions because the rules ARE NOT CLEAR.

Daeglan wrote:Claims of assumption, persistent statement that the rules are not clear

Whatever man. If you lack the ability to comprehend or understand proper context and your entire opinion hinges on beating a dead horse and reaching for unrelated out of context contradictions than you're just wasting both our time. If you REALLY think that just because something in real life has a name that might not mean it is the same as something else with the same name and if you REALLY think that they'd call something a rifle that wasn't and then NOT comment on that fact in its write-up than you need to reevaluate your perception of the game because there is no precedence for that. It is so counter intuitive and mindlessly antagonistic that you HAVE to be trolling or have no grasp on how to receive and process written information. I am not saying that to attack you or to be mean, but twice in this thread now you have tried to twist what I was saying to mean something else and now you're making the outrageous claim that because the red tail hawk is a buzzard that palladium has to waste book space adding a line to each weapon entry saying THIS HANDGUN USES W.P. HANDGUN. Its just, you're saying that I am using assumptions here but I don't think you are thinking this through and you're trying to "win" and make your opinion heard.

Well, if that is the case... you win. Anyone who might want to jeer at me or hit me on the way out is more than welcome. I leave this thread with my head-bowed in humility. Congratulations! You are the winner! Yay! Now we can all complain and mope and say the game is broken and complain that its not clear because Akashic Soldier and all the people who play the game and have no problems and have fun have gone away.

Have your thread and enjoy your groundless complaints and stagnant perceptions. Hopefully the guy who I actually quoted will get some help understanding things a little better. If not, this entire thread was a total waste of my time.

Seriously, because a bird in real life is called a hawk? Really?

One last thing, I am sick of being called an elitist. Yes, I am a member of Mensa and yes I posted a picture of me with my certificate to prove a point after I was repeatedly called STUPID but you know what... ever since then people act like its a bad thing that I am smart or that because I am I have unrealistic expectations of others. Well, you know what... I don't. Its not ******* rocket science to look and see that something with Handgun in the title or description is a freaking handgun. These claims of assumptions is just... I've just HAD IT. I don't think less of people, not as a general rule, but **** like this, this irrational circular ******** that is just trying to ruin the fun and make problems is... well I am sick of it. And you guys might want to make your claims and I know there are a bunch of people that don't like me on here or that I dare to speak out against the decades of complaining about the same sentiments that were resolved years ago... but don't put words in my mouth. Don't make it out like I am this freaking jerk or an ******* or condescending. I'm not. What I am is something who actually wastes his precious time trying to HELP people on this damn board because a lot of you are really cool people. Yes, I think I know the rules better than some of you and yes I expect a certain level of common sense but if you were in a shoe shopping community and someone left their boots on their bed and came in with shoe boxes on their feet and complained that the shoe store sold them faulty shoes than accused them because they never explained that the contents of the

Nevermind.

My point is, we're all here to have fun and I have fun each week with a lot of really cool people and I have had a lot of respect for some posters but Palladium is a game based around imagination. We all know how the game works and we're all capable of using common sense judgement. I don't think that you guys are pieces of **** (but trolling) and soapboxing to an effort to create drama and accusations of elitism irke me. I come here to relax and have fun and hear about all the great times people have. Not read constant complaints about subject matters that most people REFUSE to read... and then when they do... they ignore or blatently defy. Honestly, I don't care. I don't come here to fight. I have BETTER things to do with my time. And next time you're looking at a picture of a handgun with the description of a handgun in its write up... instead of complaining that it doesn't SAY it uses W.P. Handgun and making a controversy over it why not just, let it go and think it through. You don't need a rule to tell you that a dragon isn't a dryer. Youre supposed to know that stuff. That isn't being "elitist" that's being sane.

I am sorry to say A/S that it is you who has failed to comprehend what is being said. Both in this thread and K/C's thread. In both you've been shown that there are "breaks" due to a variety of reasons and in both you've repeatedly responded to those who don't agree with you by questioning their intelligence and their ability to comprehend the rules as written even though its been shown repeatedly they literally cannot work.

Why a few here refuse to see that AS WRITTEN the rules have problems and "breaks" and not because the people that say so are less intelligent but because the rules can and are interpreted differently and thus we have the entirety of the why this thread and others like it exist.

jaymz wrote:I am sorry to say A/S that it is you who has failed to comprehend what is being said. Both in this thread and K/C's thread. In both you've been shown that there are "breaks" due to a variety of reasons and in both you've repeatedly responded to those who don't agree with you by questioning their intelligence and their ability to comprehend the rules as written even though its been shown repeatedly they literally cannot work.

Why a few here refuse to see that AS WRITTEN the rules have problems and "breaks" and not because the people that say so are less intelligent but because the rules can and are interpreted differently and thus we have the entirety of the why this thread and others like it exist.

No, I have not one contested the as written argument in this thread. Within this topic, review my posts. I have asserted however that people are refusing to accept that the system does in fact work by evidence of the fact that it does. It can be interpreted NOT to work and if guidelines are misunderstood or missused than there are problems. If you want a technical manual for an RPG that ISNT Rifts and its NEVER going to be. It CANT be and YES I have admitted things could be structured better BUT arguments like the aforemented "just because something is called a rifle doesn't mean its a rifle" argument are just ludicrous. You might as well be claiming--

Actually, you know what...

Anyone who wants to actually think **** through has the resources available to them. All I ask is if you are new to this thread go back and read my previous posts. Yes, they are correct in that if you ignore context entirely and follow the book through step to step than you will fail. This is because Palladium is a game of situation and comparisons. You were never supposed to go through it but instead draw from it the information you require to bring to life your imagination. There are groups on this board that would seek to destroy that and limit your imagination to something they can control rather than adapt and that is their right but it does not mean that the game does not work. There are countless references to the contrary. Enjoy your game and if you need any help understanding something make your own thread or feel free to shoot me a PM and I'll see what I can do to help. Don't let these arguments over semantics spoil your gaming experience.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

jaymz wrote:I am sorry to say A/S that it is you who has failed to comprehend what is being said. Both in this thread and K/C's thread. In both you've been shown that there are "breaks" due to a variety of reasons and in both you've repeatedly responded to those who don't agree with you by questioning their intelligence and their ability to comprehend the rules as written even though its been shown repeatedly they literally cannot work.

Why a few here refuse to see that AS WRITTEN the rules have problems and "breaks" and not because the people that say so are less intelligent but because the rules can and are interpreted differently and thus we have the entirety of the why this thread and others like it exist.

No, I have not one contested the as written argument in this thread. Within this topic, review my posts. I have asserted however that people are refusing to accept that the system does in fact work by evidence of the fact that it does. It can be interpreted NOT to work and if guidelines are misunderstood or missused than there are problems. If you want a technical manual for an RPG that ISNT Rifts and its NEVER going to be. It CANT be and YES I have admitted things could be structured better BUT arguments like the aforemented "just because something is called a rifle doesn't mean its a rifle" argument are just ludicrous. You might as well be claiming--

Actually, you know what...

Anyone who wants to actually think **** through has the resources available to them. All I ask is if you are new to this thread go back and read my previous posts.Yes, they are correct in that if you ignore context entirely and follow the book through step to step than you will fail. This is because Palladium is a game of situation and comparisons. You were never supposed to go through it but instead draw from it the information you require to bring to life your imagination. There are groups on this board that would seek to destroy that and limit your imagination to something they can control rather than adapt and that is their right but it does not mean that the game does not work. There are countless references to the contrary. Enjoy your game and if you need any help understanding something make your own thread or feel free to shoot me a PM and I'll see what I can do to help. Don't let these arguments over semantics spoil your gaming experience.

so now our reading comprehension is in question?
these disguised insults do not assist your arguments.

Again you fail to see what we are asking for and that's a game that works as is not one that we have to make work. If we have to make it work then the game itself does not.

As I said in my first post above we make it work for us but that is also why we these threads exist. It is because we all make it work for us that causes the arguments around here since the way I make it work is not the way damian makes it work is not the way daeglan makes it work and is not the way kc makes it work. The difference is we don't sit here and claim no else gets it and our way is the right way like a select few in this thread have done.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Look at the definition of "ejector."
Is it necessarily a shoulder-mounted weapon?

This is why we don't get on so well anymore KC. What was the rest of my statement? You completely neglected it to make what is ultimately an invalid point. Again, if the weapon description explains that it is a pistol or a shoulder mounted rocket launcher than you should be able to understand that it is either a hand pistol or a rocket launcher. They should not have to add another line of text with Use W.P.: Handgun on every single weapon. If you read the description, you should be able to understand what the weapon is.

Uh... I included your entire statement there.

Yes, the weapon is a pistol.
It is also a plasma weapon.
Energy pistols require WP Energy Pistol.
Plasma weapons require WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons.

You really don't see any way that this might be confusing for some people?
You really don't see any reason why some might interpret the text favoring the fact that it's a plasma weapon over the fact that it's a pistol?

"The Bandit BigBore looks like a sawed-off shotgun and fires a large, high explosive shell."[/size]
But would you really rather argue about this? Or maybe just admit that there are multiple valid interpretations, and that more official clarity on the subject would be helpful?

Neither. I will administer my powers of reason and common sense and stand by the conclusion that if something is called a "shotgun" in its description than regardless if it shoots broken glass, fireballs, or exploding orbs with tiny pixies imprisoned within... its still a freaking shotgun.

The description doesn't call it a shotgun.

I don't think that the weapons make a lick of sense no matter how I look at them, really.
But that's another subject.

Well a weapon is a tool people invented to be able to kill their fellow men. People (or in some cases D-Bees) then perfected many different ways of using these tools to kill in more efficient and deadly methods. In accordance with progress scientists then invented superior weapons to augment these preexisting combat styles and systems even further. Its pretty simple really. You know... unless you over think it and want rules for dulling a weapons edge and scientific formulas for how fantasy weapons function.

None of that seems to have anything to do with what I said, so I'll assume you thought I said something else.

"Triax Pump Rifle" doesn't really tell us what WP it uses, since there isn't a "Pump Rifle" WP.
I guess you could go with Rifle... but I doubt that there's any rifling in that barrel.

Do you realize that this is a fantasy science fiction game, right? I'm not trying to be condescending here but honestly its either a "rifle" or an "energy rifle" dependent on what it fires. I believe it uses an e-clip so its PROBABLY an energy rifle but I am not going to look it up. Such trivialities are a waste of both of our time.

Getting the facts right before speaking is never a waste of time.

I agree that Rifts is a thinking-man's game.
I just don't think that means we should have to spend an hour of research in order to retro-engineer what kind of WP should go with what weapon.

Then don't. What next are folks going to be ***** that there is no W.P. for barbed tire-iron or jury-rigged flame throwers? (W.P. Flame Thrower says military flame throwers so it doesn't count for my super soaker! The game is broken! The game is FLAWED!!)

We're talking about a freaking chainsaw here.
Its not like we're missing W.P. Sword. It is an OBSCURE weapon. If youre making characters with OBSCURE things, than be prepared to go to obscure places.

There are 5 variations of Chainsaws in Rifts off the top of my head, so it's not all that obscure.
But even back when there was only one or two, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't just mention which WP is required in the weapon description, and save a lot of people an hours time on the chance that they want to use this "obscure" weapon.

Here the thing though. I could understand the resistance to a streamlining with a rules clarification and updating if it was a new edition. Which I'm in favor for yet will never happen. It's taking the rules that are poorly written scattered all over the place, contradictory and putting them all in one place. Rewritten to be easier to understand. Gathered into one place and when necesseary written without one rule contradicting the other. While still allowing the rules to be use with older material. No books become outdated or obsolete. Love the old system the streamlined version should and imo would be optional.

Instead we get told to use common sense when rules are not explained well. When it some cases the rule is so poorly written no amount of common sense is going to help. Or my favorite being told that I and others are not smart enough nor intelligent enough to understand the rules. Which somehow to some is not a insult. Even then I could somewhat understand being told this if no examples were presented to prove this yet when examples are provided we get told "it works for me" which is great yet it's not just about you and only your understanding of the rules. It's trying to mae a set of rules that appeal to everyone. Not just a select few. again I don't understand the resistance to streamlining the system. Why would making it it easier for players/dms both old and new to understand the rules a bad thing. Kind of reminds me of geeks complaing that their hobby is not mainstream enough nor taken seriously. Yet when it has become exactly that they complain that their hobby is too mainstream and not obsure enough. So far no one has given any real good let alone logical reason not to go ahead with a eventual streamlining.

With respect A/S portraying yourself as the victim when imo your one of the few posters in the thread doing his damn best to derail it. I mya not agree with those who want to keep the system as is. I have not made attacks against their to understand the rules.

Damian Magecraft wrote:so now our reading comprehension is in question?
these disguised insults do not assist your arguments.

This is no "disguised insult."

Encase you haven't noticed I don't do subtle. If I wanted to insult anyone I'd just say it. I'd be all like *points* "BAM! You're an ******* !" and "Youre a **** wit !"

That isn't what I am doing. What I am saying is and I will not rescind this... is that someone with a normal adult reading level should be able to understand that if it is called a handgun and in its description its a handgun and in W.P. Handgun that you can use "handguns" than you SHOULD be able to comprehend that it is a hand gun. If you cannot than it is NOT a problem with the product. It is a user/consumer issue.

Damian Magecraft wrote:so now our reading comprehension is in question?
these disguised insults do not assist your arguments.

Agreed and seconded.

I get his point about needed common sense when reading a rpg. Nothing wrong with a rpg having everything clearly written and explained properly.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:so now our reading comprehension is in question?
these disguised insults do not assist your arguments.

This is no "disguised insult."

Encase you haven't noticed I don't do subtle. If I wanted to insult anyone I'd just say it. I'd be all like *points* "BAM! You're an *******!" and "Youre a ******!"

That isn't what I am doing. What I am saying is and I will not rescind this... is that someone with a normal adult reading level should be able to understand that if it is called a handgun and in its description its a handgun and in W.P. Handgun that you can use "handguns" than you SHOULD be able to comprehend that it is a hand gun. If you cannot than it is NOT a problem with the product. It is a user/consumer issue.

And the fact you are now repeatedly keep harping on this ONE thing demonstrates you are simply incapable of acknowledging the problems many have brought into question.

Precisely what part of "a game should work as is and not have to be made to work by the people who buy it" is so difficult for some to understand and I don't mean the silliness above as being the problem but the repeated issues that are ignored by a select few ALL, THE, TIME and instead they harp on people bringing up what are obviously extreme yet very minor issues.

In before the lock.


No wait, I was locking it for review.

I am posting the following comment because of the repeated claims that the game is broken or does not work. I sent it in response to a PM and I just thought I would share it. I am hoping it gives folks something to think about and maybe prompt them to reconsider HOW they're approaching certain problems. For a long time now I've been misrepresented as an arrogant bastard because I am unwilling to compromise what I know to be sound principles and methods in lieu of popular concerns. This is not because I think I am better than anyone else. The truth is, from a personal standpoint I have spent most of my life having myself kicked to the ground. It was only in my mid-teens that I decided I was going to be more than an just another small town idiot and expand my mind and perspective by traveling. Growing up one of my best friends was the smartest guy in New South Wales, literally... had this whole Dougie Houser thing happening and he used to cut down my intelligence daily. It wasn't until I was about 25 years old that I even knew I was smart. I took an I.Q. test just to prove I wasn't an idiot because my "gamer friends" used to call me dumb (always had) and I just wanted to prove I was average. I didn't go in and take the Mesna test to prove I was SMARTER or that I was elite and I don't want YOU GUYS thinking that I am kicking you down. I am HONESTLY trying to build you up and help you understand things you've lost sight of so you can enjoy the game like all the folks I hang with. I am sorry if you feel I am speaking down to you, I am not. I don't do subtly, I don't play games (well, mind games) and if I think you are being an abrasive piece of **** I'll just out right and say it. So, you know... if I don't... I probably don't think that. Anyways, sorry for rambling I just wanted that cleared up before I start. I am making this post because I am going to cutting back my activity on the board. I have work to focus on and recent events seem to warrent me explaining myself a little more. I hope this has helped. Well, without further adieu...


Sure learning ALL of the rules isn't easy but neither is being a "good" GM. You've got the hard slog of building a world, setting a stage, and handling comparisons. Yes, there are A LOT of rules to learn for Palladium because there are a lot of different circumstances and various factors that come into play. I've done it and I don't think I am better than anyone else so I think others can do it too... but when I get my players (who avoid the boards because of this crap) to come on and vouch for the game I was expecting you guys to ask them about their experiences and try to gather a better understanding of a Post R:UE group of gamers that have fresh eyes and instead they get slammed with an obscure rules quiz and say to me "Forget them, we have fun each week. We get the rules and if they're too stupid to understand that a rifle is a rifle that is their problem."

Which makes sense in my head but it still gets under my skin. I try to be helpful here. I try to help. People keep thinking that I am trying to "win an argument" or "be right" and that I am ignoring their arguments and tallying points... but I am not. I don't care. I just want you guys to be able to make threads that are "I had a really awesome game last night" and tell me about it. Because you know, I HONESTLY am interested in your adventures and experiences. However, when I see these threads called "the system is broken" and "the game doesn't work as written" when I have seen repeatedly that the evidence is to the contrary. When I've played "broken games" that do not work and seen "munchkin games" that are not challenging - to have those same accusations levied at Rifts frustrates me.

It is my personal opinion that a lot of people are using the game wrong. The Megaversal System is a tool. It has tiers of power and a wide range of applications. This doesn't mean you're stupid or wrong, it just means that certain people are trying to get it to do things (or want it to do things) but are going about using it in the wrong way. I don't want to go into examples because I don't want to spark controversy but you cannot read a line or a paragraph inclusive of itself and not ALL guidelines are rules. The purpose of the book in your hands is to help you bring to life your imagination. It isn't to engineer dungeon crawls (although it can be used to do so), it isn't a technical manual for the distant future (although it can be represented as such), it is a role playing game and as Gamers of such a diverse and spanning game verse we need to understand that everything we need isn't going to be right out our fingertips. The R:UE isn't the internet (but the internet is a great asset for complementing the R:UE).

I guess my whole point is, there are a lot of complaints that the game dosen't work but I've seen it work. I've made mistakes, misinterpreted things, come to learn things, and overall now I run a pretty controlled game except for when I let something "too powerful" for my vision of the campaign into the game at character creation. The difference is, I understand that is on me. Its not a problem with the game. Cosmo Knights are SUPPOSED to be cosmically powerful beings but the average role playing Game isn't about flying through space fighting evil alien worlds so if you let one in to your game and everyone else are city rats, that's on you as a GM.

Finally, I have to say again... you cannot read the R:UE like a technical manual or inclusive of itself. You cannot, and you cannot change something because you don't understand (or like) it and then say it is broken while REFUSING to learn how it is supposed to work. That just, well, it isn't fair!

Role playing games aren't always easy but they're rewarding. Like with anything, if you look at it from a certain angle you can see flaws... you can do that with ANY role playing game. In fact, why don't you pick up another game and give it a good hard look over for a year or two and I am sure you'll find just as many (if not more) problems. There is a REASON Palladium's Megaversal System has endured the test of time and despite popular rumors to the contrary it is not because Kevin is some backwards thinking ******* that refuses to change. I can say that from my own personal experience that Kevin is a very intelligent and imaginative person.

Nothing in the Megaverse is perfect, but nothing is entirely inclusive of itself either... that is an intentional design ascetic (and one I love!)

Anyways folks, sorry if anything I have said has upset anyone. I advise you take a step back (just like I am doing) and think about it. When was the last time you had fun? Better question, when was the last time you shared that experience with anyone else? I know I personally enjoy the boards a lot more when folks are talking about their favorite books or games and personal experiences WAY more than when they're griping over the shapes of clouds. Just saying.

I have a very serious objection to this.

You desperately need to correct the spelling of 'clarification' in the OP subject line.



/Sub

Subjugator wrote:I have a very serious objection to this.

You desperately need to correct the spelling of 'clarification' in the OP subject line.



/Sub

Misplaced the L. Fixed. Sorry, Sub.

Boy, you were fast.

To an extent, I see where your coming from, and I agree. rift's isn't broken because it fails to have easy to understand power teirs of races and weaponry like other games do. It fails to have this, yes, but having it was not a design goal, it was not meant to have one. the lack of innate weapon/armor/robot balance in Rifts isn't broken, rather the feature of balanced power teirs was sacrafised--deliberately, in return for something else. you may question the wisdom of such a design decision, but it's not broken for lacking a feature that it was never ment to include.

However, Akashic, You are overlooking something, when people say something is broken, they mean there are bugs in the system, in sense of bugs in a video game. glitches. they don't necessarly break the game, although they might make it freeze up for a while while the GM looks for a way to resolve it. but the bugs are there, and there is no reason to not fix them.

And I think THAT is what the more recent hangup in threads was about. Not broken as in "The game will not function period", but broken as in "These are bug reports that should be fixed".

You ever play video games like that? I remember the playstation era games being full of odd glitches that show up now and then. the game works fine, but every now and then something odd happens that's not supposed to.

So if you redefine "broken" to mean not "broken as in will not function" but "A flawed aspect that sometimes causes an irregular result", then the statement that "the Rifts main book is full of bugs" is entirely correct. there ARE a lot of things which while not nonfunctional do not always function properly.

and YES--a good GM can get around them. that's why they arn't broken, and merely bugs. because the Processor of the game--the human brain, can reasonably work around the bugs. but that does not mean the bugs do not exist, nor is it a good argument aginst slowly fixing them with new editions.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:To an extent, I see where your coming from, and I agree. rift's isn't broken because it fails to have easy to understand power teirs of races and weaponry like other games do. It fails to have this, yes, but having it was not a design goal, it was not meant to have one. the lack of innate weapon/armor/robot balance in Rifts isn't broken, rather the feature of balanced power teirs was sacrafised--deliberately, in return for something else. you may question the wisdom of such a design decision, but it's not broken for lacking a feature that it was never ment to include.

However, Akashic, You are overlooking something, when people say something is broken, they mean there are bugs in the system, in sense of bugs in a video game. glitches. they don't necessarly break the game, although they might make it freeze up for a while while the GM looks for a way to resolve it. but the bugs are there, and there is no reason to not fix them.

And I think THAT is what the more recent hangup in threads was about. Not broken as in "The game will not function period", but broken as in "These are bug reports that should be fixed".

You ever play video games like that? I remember the playstation era games being full of odd glitches that show up now and then. the game works fine, but every now and then something odd happens that's not supposed to.

So if you redefine "broken" to mean not "broken as in will not function" but "A flawed aspect that sometimes causes an irregular result", then the statement that "the Rifts main book is full of bugs" is entirely correct. there ARE a lot of things which while not nonfunctional do not always function properly.

and YES--a good GM can get around them. that's why they arn't broken, and merely bugs. because the Processor of the game--the human brain, can reasonably work around the bugs. but that does not mean the bugs do not exist, nor is it a good argument aginst slowly fixing them with new editions.

Thanks Nekria, as per usual you make a clear and valid point that challenges my assessment of the situation without invalidating it and more importantly you make a good, well-reasoned point vacant of personal bias. I had not considered that "gaming terminology" might be different internationally than it is here. My experience with "broken" games are games that quickly become unplayable either because they are not manageable beyond a certain level or because the rules do not allow for (or penalize as is often the case) creative thinking.

When I play a Roleplaying game I am not looking for a videogame platform. I am looking for a living world I can express freely within and shape as is my will via my actions as a player. Alternatively, this is the type of world I go to huge lengths to create when I Game Master. My player's aren't just stat blocks with synching levels... they're the stars of the game--the main characters of the show! The stories revolve around them personally, their back stories and histories matter and influence the setting!

Take that away and make it a bunch of clunky rules that penalize creative and player freedom and I get irked. I like rules... but I like rules as a method to explain things and to serve to balance the environment and the setting not as a means of controlling/penalizing/railroading the actions/responses of my player characters. So basically, so long as the rules support themselves and everyone is having fun and being creative I am happy. I like being in that kind of environment and because I've had no REAL problems with the Palladium system and neither have any of the groups I regularly game with. It all seems pretty intuitive. I get irked when folks "claim" without ever having gamed with me that the system as presented does not work. It is basically like spitting on me and my players and calling them "cheaters" when I go to great lengths to keep the game as canon as physically possible and I am quite proud of the ingenuity a lot of my players have. I'm lucky to be in a lot of good groups with really good players right now.

Anyways, I have to get back to work. I do think that minor things could be worded better with new editions but I also do not think it is necessary for the system to flow and function.

OH!

One last thing...

For me, learning "movement" was hard. I didn't just magically know all the rules by snapping my fingers and I had no one to teach me (which I think turned out to be an advantage in the end). So I had to wrap my head around it a bit like a math problem but once I figured out "what" actions presented and that a round was not "technically" a rotation but period in time with each action being a moment in time that someone could act, it made it way easier. Still, even this wasn't enough to SOLVE it. To accomplish this and teach my new players I made "action cards."

Red cards represented standard actions
Blue cards represented movement actions
Yellow cards represented basic/specific actions (+1 attack per round with a rifle or +1 action to cast a spell per round)

I then gave each player the appropriate number of cards...

1 red card per action
1 Yellow card per basic/specific action
1 blue card for each red/yellow card

I then explained that each player can use a blue card BEFORE or AFTER their attack (as explained in the R:GMG) and to place the cards on the table until they were out. Of course a lot of players ended up with extra movement cards because they didnt move on every action but this was because "in game" their character had not taken that opportunity to move so of course they couldn't move as far as fast.

Written down it looks like a mess still but everyone picked it up REALLY fast and the mystery of movement/actions was solved.

Recently I was trying to streamline the system to help resolve some people's complaints on here without changing the rules and I came up with a way for players who were faster to go get more actions and to better represent that a round is an interval in time and its play testing very well but because it has recently been submitted to Palladium for assessment and review pending the completion of other projects (they're all very busy getting books done right now) I cannot post it here. Needless to say though, even without this system the rules work and make sense. Sometimes it just takes you actually having physical tools so you can SEE how it plays out. Reading how something works can be confusing for some people until they try it for themselves. Heck, I was one of them where movement was concerned!

OneTrikPony wrote:Akashic Soldier, my Brother; maybe I can't say Rifts is "broken" and, when I ***** about it, I am certainly not attacking you--if I am attacking something you love. I can say, and I think you'll agree; Rifts could be better, RIFTS SHOULD BE BETTER. This setting, Kevin Siembieda's original vision, deserves a better rules set with Clear, Concise and Consistent writing.

That is a beautiful post Trik and hopefully I'll see you around here more often.

To answer your question, but for lack of a better analogy... people have to "level up" their Palladium skills.

For instance, watch this...

Rifts: Ultimate Edition, pg. 368: Perception Rolls vs Stealth & Concealment Skills wrote:A number of skills, among them Prowl, Detect Ambush, Detect Concealment, Camouflage, and Concealment, have an impact on Perception Rolls. When a Perception Roll is attempted against another character (player or NPC) who is using a Stealth or Concealment skill, treat it as a combat type "roll off." Both characters (the person using the skill and the one using a Perception Roll) roll 1D20 and the high roll wins.

The character using the skill gets a bonus of+ 1 for every 10 points in his skill percentage (round down). The character using Perception gets to add in his usual Perception Roll bonuses. Example: Alex's character is sneaking up on a psychic guarding a door. His Prowl skill is 65%, giving the character a +6 bonus in the "roll off" of Skill vs Perception.

The psychic has a Perception bonus of+3. Each character rolls a twenty-sided die (1D20). Alex rolls an 1 1 on the D20 and adds his +6 skill bonus for a total of Wayne, playing the psychic on guard, rolls a 16 on the D20 and adds his Perception Roll bonus of+3 for a total of 19. He wins. The psychic hears something (or maybe it's a feeling), he turns towards Alex's character, begins to draw his gun and calls out to his teammates that there is an intruder. Alex's character bares his fangs . . . he is more than he seems.

Now that you've read that and know the page, you'll remember it pretty much forever. Likewise, if you master the quickfind and using the contents it makes it easier. Part of the problem is just how VAST Rifts is an how much information you're actually getting given. When I first got my R:UE it was intimidating because it was so thick and big with the double columns... but I fell in love with the setting and I forced myself to read it and learn it and now I know and I can help others. I guess my point is... Rifts is easy to learn but hard to master. Maybe it shouldn't be... but making it "simpler" so anyone can "master it" is gonna take away some of the charm. As for why is a lot of this in the R:GMG, well, I don't know but I know that as soon as I got my R:GMG it was like I had the missing part of the puzzle I needed to run Rifts! It had everything! Including every weapon and vehicle from nearly every book and how to run combat and why the rules worked the way they did. It was invaluable to me as a GM. "Players" tend to have everything they need to know to PLAY in the R:UE and the R:GMG gives the Game Master the tools he needs to do everything else... including classifying the crazy things they announce they're going to attempt...

"Lets crash tackle the dragon then grab its horns and steer it into the CS Abolisher!"

Why--by the hairy breasts of my favorite N'mbyr Saloon Girl

This made me laugh out loud! Thank you!

Akashic Soldier wrote:

OneTrikPony wrote:Akashic Soldier, my Brother; maybe I can't say Rifts is "broken" and, when I ***** about it, I am certainly not attacking you--if I am attacking something you love. I can say, and I think you'll agree; Rifts could be better, RIFTS SHOULD BE BETTER. This setting, Kevin Siembieda's original vision, deserves a better rules set with Clear, Concise and Consistent writing.

That is a beautiful post Trik and hopefully I'll see you around here more often.

To answer your question, but for lack of a better analogy... people have to "level up" their Palladium skills.

For instance, watch this...

Rifts: Ultimate Edition, pg. 368: Perception Rolls vs Stealth & Concealment Skills wrote:A number of skills, among them Prowl, Detect Ambush, Detect Concealment, Camouflage, and Concealment, have an impact on Perception Rolls. When a Perception Roll is attempted against another character (player or NPC) who is using a Stealth or Concealment skill, treat it as a combat type "roll off." Both characters (the person using the skill and the one using a Perception Roll) roll 1D20 and the high roll wins.

The character using the skill gets a bonus of+ 1 for every 10 points in his skill percentage (round down). The character using Perception gets to add in his usual Perception Roll bonuses. Example: Alex's character is sneaking up on a psychic guarding a door. His Prowl skill is 65%, giving the character a +6 bonus in the "roll off" of Skill vs Perception.

The psychic has a Perception bonus of+3. Each character rolls a twenty-sided die (1D20). Alex rolls an 1 1 on the D20 and adds his +6 skill bonus for a total of Wayne, playing the psychic on guard, rolls a 16 on the D20 and adds his Perception Roll bonus of+3 for a total of 19. He wins. The psychic hears something (or maybe it's a feeling), he turns towards Alex's character, begins to draw his gun and calls out to his teammates that there is an intruder. Alex's character bares his fangs . . . he is more than he seems.

Now that you've read that and know the page, you'll remember it pretty much forever. Likewise, if you master the quickfind and using the contents it makes it easier. Part of the problem is just how VAST Rifts is an how much information you're actually getting given. When I first got my R:UE it was intimidating because it was so thick and big with the double columns... but I fell in love with the setting and I forced myself to read it and learn it and now I know and I can help others. I guess my point is... Rifts is easy to learn but hard to master. Maybe it shouldn't be... but making it "simpler" so anyone can "master it" is gonna take away some of the charm. As for why is a lot of this in the R:GMG, well, I don't know but I know that as soon as I got my R:GMG it was like I had the missing part of the puzzle I needed to run Rifts! It had everything! Including every weapon and vehicle from nearly every book and how to run combat and why the rules worked the way they did. It was invaluable to me as a GM. "Players" tend to have everything they need to know to PLAY in the R:UE and the R:GMG gives the Game Master the tools he needs to do everything else... including classifying the crazy things they announce they're going to attempt...

"Lets crash tackle the dragon then grab its horns and steer it into the CS Abolisher!"

Why--by the hairy breasts of my favorite N'mbyr Saloon Girl

This made me laugh out loud! Thank you!

I shouldn't have to fight the badly written rules and layout to learn the game. Unfortunately I do. Because the rules are never in the section you would expect them to be. Why are swords and bows in the skill section and not the equipment section?When I look up ranged combat I should be able to find everything I need in that section with exception to the equipment. And for that matter why are the coalition equipment in a different place than the rest of the equipment. And how is it helpful having them in separate sections in separate parts of the book? I find the quick find is not all that helpful most of the time. As often the information I am looking for is not in the logical location. For example the sword damages are in the skill section. Not the equipment section. Same with bows. The Strength section has the damage for punches but not kicks. It also does not tell you how strength interacts with claws. Even though it really should. Seeing as how supernatural strength ought to effect damage. Same with MD swords like vibro swords that do MD.

I find it annoying that people like you fight the concept of getting the rules laid out in a manner to make the game easier for everyone to learn and use and more importantly use in the same manner. Wouldn't it be better for everyone to start on the same page so people like OneTrikPony can have an easier time adding players? You seem to insist we shouldn't want a game that is easier to use. Even if the rules them selves do not change. I just do not understand this. And it is really arrogant to say we should learn the game better. We are saying we would like to the rules stand in the way of doing that.

Akashic...
Here is a little tid bit for you to consider...
As a genius you are not qualified to claim "it does not require a genius to figure it out."

Daeglan wrote:I shouldn't have to fight the badly written rules and layout to learn the game. Unfortunately I do. Because the rules are never in the section you would expect them to be.

I never had to "fight the rules" to learn them. Why do you?

Yes sometimes it is a pain in the ass to find but that is because things are typically organized by need. For instance, the CS weapons and armor are "in the CS part of the book" so if someone is making a CS character they have everything they need right there. See, normally people that aren't Coalition wouldn't be using those weapons/vehicles. So, they put everything in the CS section.

Why are swords and bows in the skill section and not the equipment section?

I agree this is one of those things that I think should be changed. You will find in the latest product lines this is not the case. Maybe when a new core rule book is released this will be changed. However, that isn't in the books right now. So your option is to complain or learn "S.D.C. weapons are in their respective W.P.s" The alternative is complaining and that doesn't help anyone. Especially since Palladium are obviously aware of it since in their new games like Dead Reign, Splicers, etc, that ISN'T how they've organized the books.

I find the quick find is not all that helpful most of the time. As often the information I am looking for is not in the logical location.

It doesn't matter where in the book it is. If you use the Quickfind and the contents you can just open to that page.

The Strength section has the damage for punches but not kicks. It also does not tell you how strength interacts with claws. Even though it really should. Seeing as how supernatural strength ought to effect damage. Same with MD swords like vibro swords that do MD.

Well, that is one opinion but if you read the Supernatural P.S. write up in the R:UE you will find that with a VERY few exceptions you do Supernatural P.S. damage or weapon damage, whichever is higher. This is because Mega-Damage works in degrees. It is not like normal P.S. and simply, the amount of damage you are doing with monstrous strength is not going to be that much more than hitting something with M.D. and hitting something with a M.D. weapon with monstrous strength doesn't REALLY do that much more damage because the amount of damage you are already doing is so great. Its too keep armor values from becoming insignificant. I could explain it better but I am working. Just think of it like S.D.C. where it adds damage but not enough to make a difference "most of the time" this isn't a function of Supernatural P.S. but an indication of just how destructive Mega-Damage really is!

I find it annoying that people like you fight the concept of getting the rules laid out in a manner to make the game easier for everyone to learn and use and more importantly use in the same manner.

I find it annoying that people like you don't take the time to read the books and learn the content before getting annoyed at people like me who have. You see how this is a problem?

Wouldn't it be better for everyone to start on the same page

We do. We all start knowing "nothing" and then we set out on a journey of learning and understanding. Some people get distracted, pull over and complain because they get lost, and then there are those people who sit there on the side of the road and suck it up and keep on driving until they get to their destination.

so people like OneTrikPony can have an easier time adding players?

I had a hard time getting new players too but I got lucky, a few came and tried and saw how fun it was and that the rumors were not true and then they bought their friends and now we have a blast. *shrugs* You'll find that with every game. Heck, when I first started one of my players tried sabotaging the game so we'd quit so I would run a white-wolf Exalted game instead based on nothing but personal preference. It failed and the group "kicked him out" rather than quitting Rifts. I told everyone to make a group vote and they picked Rifts. After the fact he said that the game was good he just wanted to play Exalted because he wanted to be all powerful and not have to try. So in the end, he is welcome to that game. I guess my point is, its always going to be hard to get new players especially with the culture of houserules but with a good, fair, and responsible GM it can work and work well.

You seem to insist we shouldn't want a game that is easier to use.

I never said that. I am saying the rules are not messed up as much as your understanding of them is. I would not have spent two damn weeks going over the rule books (and buying NEW ONES) to clarify and rewrite and compile everything for you guys if I didn't want **** to be easier for you. I would not have made THIS to try to make it easier for people to make/layout their damn characters if I didn't want it to be easier on you guys. I'm trying to be part of the solution and help you guys understand what is here DOES in fact work despite popular belief to the contrary and lazy insistent statements that it does not.

Yes, I said lazy. You are expecting Palladium to change its system because you don't want to read it all. You want to be able to open to you want. You are ESSENTIALLY demanding they put in LESS content per book. No, that is wrong. You are demanding they give just as much content but in a format that is better when the entire R:UE is a giant web of comparisons that encapsulates an infinite Megaverse.

You don't see why that might sound a little... I don't know... greedy? Yeah, you paid for it but what you paid for is good. It works. Its fun! I run it successfully each week. Just because its not to your personal preference and just because there is a decade long series of complaints doesn't mean it doesn't work or they OWE you anything. You can always PLAY ANOTHER GAME. Kevin isn't tying your hands and holding a trembling gun to your face. He's given us a good game with a HELL of a lot more setting information than ANY OTHER game I know. ANY OTHER game I know.

Heck, maybe there isn't 12 monstrous manuals but you know what we do have... a monster generator so a GM can create whatever he wants! Rules for making our own cities,, military operations, heck... even rules for making our own dimensions where the rules can work HOWEVER you want them to work. Yet, because you do not want to learn the content of the books you buy... its frustrating for you? Its "broken?"

No I say. No.

Even if the rules them selves do not change. I just do not understand this. And it is really arrogant to say we should learn the game better. We are saying we would like to the rules stand in the way of doing that.

The rules are not standing in your way. Stop trying to limit Palladium and be like every other game where you cannot "grab" an enemy without them cutting off your hands instantly in response or where magic has been reduced to a fist full of dice with a mana cost. Stop trying to force it into a box. Support it and learn it... come to understand it. The MAIN reason its hard is because there is SO much... but you don't even need all of it to play. You don't. All you need is a little imagination and an open mind.

OneTrikPony wrote:OMFG! Page 368.
Dude I feel like you just pulled a sliver out of my thumb. The perception thing has been killin for me for a long time. There's 13 friken column-inches of perception. The rules for perception vs. supernatural are very useful they completely change interaction vs. Brodkill. I've never seen them played. I have no idea how I've missed it. I will never complain, (about that ) ever again.

No problem my friend! I remember being excited when I found it as well. I was like "Oh neat!" and if you read into it a little you will realize it is also the rules for handling "roll offs" in opposing skills... or at least a good guideline for handling them.

If there is anything else you ever need don't be afraid to ask. I am always here to help.

Damian Magecraft wrote:As a genius you are not qualified to claim "it does not require a genius to figure it out."

Clearly you have never met my little brother...

I'm not saying he is dumb as a sack of bricks but he is no rocket scientist and he gets it. The problem is, you guys are "assuming" that I am just speaking for myself. I am speaking for a fair few people (I won't name names) who feel the same way and basing my statements off observations I've made during play of and made during this game.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Daeglan wrote:Even if the rules them selves do not change. I just do not understand this. And it is really arrogant to say we should learn the game better. We are saying we would like to the rules stand in the way of doing that.

The rules are not standing in your way. Stop trying to limit Palladium and be like every other game where you cannot "grab" an enemy without them cutting off your hands instantly in response or where magic has been reduced to a fist full of dice with a mana cost. Stop trying to force it into a box. Support it and learn it... come to understand it. The MAIN reason its hard is because there is SO much... but you don't even need all of it to play. You don't. All you need is a little imagination and an open mind.

we are not asking that the system be made into a duplicate of any other system.
We are asking that the system adopt Industry standards in presentation. (big difference)
While some do want changes to the rules.
They are not in agreement on what needs changed.
What everyone (calling for change) is in agreement on is that the presentation is not optimal.
Having the rules RE-FORMATTED (not changed) would be desirable and an alteration of this nature would quiet many confusions.

Damian Magecraft wrote:We are not asking that the system be made into a duplicate of any other system.
We are asking that the system adopt Industry standards in presentation. (big difference)

I know.

Damian Magecraft wrote:While some do want changes to the rules.
They are not in agreement on what needs changed.

I know.

Damian Magecraft wrote:What everyone (calling for change) is in agreement on is that the presentation is not optimal.
Having the rules RE-FORMATTED (not changed) would be desirable and an alteration of this nature would quiet many confusions.

And I agree. Again, this is why I spent WEEKS piecing everything together. I agree. It "could" be better structured but that doesn't mean it "doesn't work" it just means that UNLIKE other games you have to be more willing to use the index to find what you are looking for. Other games I have played didn't have rules for falling from orbit... but Palladium does... BUT because that rule is in an obscure place (I believe its the Parachute Skill ), than Palladium is "broken?"

I just don't see it that way. Yes, it could be more well-structured and I am sure given the time, resources and opportunity they would but you know what would be WAY more productive than complaining about it?

Use that same energy to put together a petition (don't roll your eyes hear me out). Put together a petition asking that the next book Palladium releases be a clarification of the rules set/new hard cover rule book for Rifts or the Megaversal System. Then get as many people as you can to sign it, to commit to it, and I promise you, I give you my WORD OF HONOR than I will make sure Kevin sees it.

If what you are saying is true and there are really THAT many people want this change and you can PROVE that it is a HIGH priority among the fans than I am SURE Kevin will sit up and listen. Instead of being upset, organize! Again, I promise if you do this and get it all set up and done and set a closing date than I will MAKE SURE Kevin reviews it. Though do not expect him to do so until prior obligations are finished.

He wants to sell you product, he wants to make you happy, that is good for business and he's not an *******. He will listen. If there is a demand and he can meet it, you can be sure he will. If this will bring back the fans and start a new generation of Palladium fans he will be on board. I am sure of it... and as you're so fond of pointing out, I am a genius afterall.

Johnnycat93 wrote:Woah dude I just work here....

But seriously, if I have someone that read a paper of mine and said "I don't understand this section here because of wording" I would reword instead of having an in-depth discussion of why they aren't understanding it (whether it be from lack of experience, no context, general ignorance whatever).
I don't think its such a bad effort to try and reorganize just so people can understand it better.

This is a little different (for a starter it costs money, a lot of money) but I get the spirit of what you're saying.

Johnnycat93 wrote:That's good, I think I've refrained rather well from discussing any "The sky is falling and it does 1D4x10000000000000000 MD!" posts

Good one. I wonder what is the maximum actual distance you can fall. I'll have to do some research and find out exactly how high the atmosphere is and then calculate it. I'm such a nerd.

Johnnycat93 wrote:Technically (and I mean TECHNICALLY) any object that is being gravitational pulled towards another action is "falling". So if you really wanted you could have millions of miles as someone is pulled into a planets gravitational field from space. Then again, RUE doesn't really account for other technicalities like terminal velocity (at least not too my knowledge).

Yeah "technically" it isn't its own thing. I just have to figure out the height. Nice. Simple. Fun.

Only just now finding out RUE has perception rules. How come this is not advertised on https://palladium-store.com/1001/produc ... ition.html ? They should do an expanded ad for it to convince us diehards who have RMB and resist upgrading.

Having the rules not presented in an easy to find well laid out manner means I have to fight the poor layout to find anything. i tried to run the game once. Poor layout and not being able to find what i needed when I needed it cause me to say screw this, I have better ways i can spend my time than fighting a poorly laid out system. One could almost say the game actively resists ones ability to find the rules. one needs at the time one needs a specific rule.

Why do you resist the idea of getting the rules to be formatted better? Sure it will cost money. But if the rules are laid out in an intelligent manner you will likely get more people to buy it making more money. And if you have people volunteering to do most of the work wouldn't it be wise to use that effort.

Tor wrote:Only just now finding out RUE has perception rules. How come this is not advertised on https://palladium-store.com/1001/produc ... ition.html ? They should do an expanded ad for it to convince us diehards who have RMB and resist upgrading.

They also updated all of the O.C.C.s so that they all have their own unique abilities and a bunch of other handy stuff but its 2:01am and its been a long day so I am headed off to bed. Totally worth picking up in my opinion, especially since its only like $30.

Also Daeglan read my posts or don't comment and put words in my mouth. That is the THIRD time now I have asked you not to misquote me. I am not against reformatting the book. I am against claims that the system is broken and does not work. Your above example is just another testament to the fact that you could not be asked spending 5 minutes (if that) breezing down the contents page. Besides, I seriously doubt that you would have been able to run a good game of you don't have the patience to do that. Imagine how you would have felt when your players did something completely unpredictable and screwed your game... and they ALWAYS do.

Right? Who is with me? GM high five?

Point is, you learn to adapt. That is harder than finding a few obscure rules in the core rule book.

The mere fact that there are dozens of obscure, situational rules is a problem.

The fact that there are dozens and dozens of situational modifiers for every conceivable permutation that makes combat absurdly slow is a problem.

Either one alone is enough to make the system broken, and that isnt even getting into the actual failed mechanics and things that literally do not function unless you house rule them.

When a topic gets locked, it is for a reason. Continuing the discussion with just a few changes in emphasis of the phrasing undermines the efforts of the moderators to get things sorted out without further escalation.

Please refrain from posting on this subject until such time as we complete our review of the locked topic.