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Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

flatline wrote:And the other perspective is that those horrible things are means towards achieving the goal of protecting its citizens.

--flatline

which they also aren't doing when they prevent their citizens from gaining knowledge that can improve their lives, just so that the leadership can keep control of them more easily.

furthermore, if that was their goal, they wouldn't have spent 20 years threatening tolkeen and then invaded when tolkeen was not doing anything to provoke them. they would have instead spent those military resources attacking something that was actually a threat.

I'm not commenting on the merits of either argument or on whether or not the CS is using a sub-optimal strategy to achieve their goals, I'm merely explaining why there are two sides to this debate.

--flatline

I don't know if there really is two sides honestly.
The argument for the CS seems to revolve around "Well if we take the CS propaganda as a valid analysis of what is good and evil, then the CS is the good guys" That sort of requires defining away evil.......

The argument for the CS leadership being Good might be roughly like that, but the argument for the CS population being overall Good is that the books (iirc) mention that the population is mostly a mix of Good and Selfish alignments.

I am not talking about the people.
A good analogy here....the highly similar Nazis
The Nazi leaders were evil
The Nazi government was evil
Germans had the normal distribution of good and evil.
When one says "the Nazis were evil" one generally does not reply with "No the Nazis were good, I mean after all the average citizen of Hamburg loved kittens" Just because the individual Germans were good, doesn't make 'The Nazis' good.

The Coalition States is a nation as Germany was a nation. If you have something to say about a particular political party (like the Karl-clique or whatever we call it) that's a whole other matter.

guardiandashi wrote:go back and READ LONE STAR the conversation between Desmond Bradford, and Inspector Emerson where Desmond starts Ranting (a bit) about (Karl) aka emperor Prosek and his rewriting and suppression of history. (starting ~pg 20)

I wonder if WB13 may have been changed because for me in the April 1997 first printing the (or one of several?) Bradford/Emmerson convos takes place of 100-101 and page 20 is the part where Bradford orders everyone in Sector 357 killed.

Blue_Lion wrote:CS suppress history and information against there propagranda

Of course, approved propoganda is judged to be safe. Unsafe propoganda could lead people to begin worshipping pre-Rifts deities and give them power and attract them into safe human areas, can't have that.

Blue_Lion wrote:the scroll threat he lists is pure smoke screen.

Naw, scrolls exist and they are dangerous.

Blue_Lion wrote:There are not enough scrolls out there for it to be a significant threat

Source?

Blue_Lion wrote:said scrolls would have to make it into the city state, past the dog boy screening

Scrolls are smaller than people and can survive a lack of air/food or exposure to poisonous gases, so it is easier to sneak them in. Consider for example if you built a pneumatic tube system. This is what used to be used to send documents, I thought of them because they became a plot device in person of interest to get past electronic monitoring.

If you constructed one of these then they could easily bypass dog boys, you could put them through dozens of feet of dirty on all sides so that no dog boy could sense them, since they are stored rather than actively-cast magic.

Blue_Lion wrote:The CS by the books has purged whole comminutes of non humans for being just that so they are already at the dark place

The CS, meaning it was an approved action by CS high command? Or an isolated member of the CS military and his underlings? Who are you talking about?

The CS has rogue generals who do things without approval from the higher-up. Their choices are not CS choices.

Blue_Lion wrote:There may be uses of skull motif that are not evil, but if you will see many of the major threats created by Kevin that he wants as obvious threats use the skull motif.

This seems like jumping to conclusions here. If the D'norr Devilman is any example, it is that things are not always as they appear.

Blue_Lion wrote:Despite all claims other wise the CS are racist begets that use lethal force on those they see as different.

So is Lazlo. They are racist against the Xiticix and have used lethal force against this group they see as too different to get alongwith. Not seeing any point here. Is Lazlo evil?

Blue_Lion wrote:Erin TArin is the CS number 1 enemy because she knows the CS is suppressing the real history and is spreading not only the truth but the fact the CS Does so.

Is Tarn the only one to hold such an opinion?

Where in the books does it say this is the reason that Tarn is ranked highest? Is this possibly just jumping to an easy answer?

Blue_Lion wrote:Karl Prosek is Diabolic evil(PG 214) Joseph Prosek II Aberrant Evil(215) General Cabot Aberrat Evil General Ross Underhill Anarchist.

Nobody has disputed that notable CS leadership is predominantly evil, the question is whether that makes the States evil.

The leadership of Tolkeen also has some evil guys in it, do you accept that makes Tolkeen evil?

A leader of Dweomer is evil, does that make Dweomer evil?

Do we know Lazlo lacks evil leaders?

Blue_Lion wrote:

As loyal believers in human supremacist regime of Karl Prosek, these solders are, without a doubt, misguided individuals unwittingly serving and evil cause."

There you have it the CS own book calls their cause evil. That to me proves without a doubt the CS is evil

Incorrect, it is calling a specific cause, specifically the "regime of Karl", evil. Not the Coalition States, which was not an empire to begin with and predates Karl. The "regime of Joseph" may well be non-evil.

The regime of a leader being evil does not make an entire nation evil. If you thought Obama or Bush or Clinton were evil and their policies evil, would that make the United States an evil concept? The US is bigger than any president and the CS is bigger than any Chairman or Emperor.

Blue_Lion wrote:Makes me wonder if all the pro CD flag wavers bothered reading the books before they drank the cool aid.

I prefer DVDs.

eliakon wrote:The goal of taking over the world and murdering every one that is not like you is an evil goal

Good thing it's not the CS goal, since Dog Boys are not like humans and the CS is not placing murdering them as a goal.

eliakon wrote:The goal of eradicating all knowledge held by anyone who is not your elite is an evil goal

Preventing access to knowledge is not the same as eradicating it. It's like keeping gore/porn away from kids, except magic and religious lore (tied into most pre-rifts culture) is more dangerous because it can't just cause psychological problems, it can summon demons and evil gods into your midst.

Pre-Rifts knowledge exposed to public must come at a slow trickle as it is safety-checked, if they release unscreened info it might be dangerous.

eliakon wrote:The goal of mass genocide is an evil goal

Cept it isn't a CS goal, it is an isolated tactic taken on by rogue generals on the front lines.

eliakon wrote:There is no possible world where the goals of the CS are in any way, shape, or form, are anything but evil on a massive scale.

"Create a better world for the next generation" doesn't sound evil to me.

eliakon wrote:The CS does not have the goal of 'protecting humanity' Because it already doesn't protect humanity, just the people that follow its party line

Which is the majority of humans in the CS. Not seeing your point here. Are countries that execute murderers not protecting humanity because they except murderers (people not toeing the party line) from their protection?

I guess the USA isn't protecting humanity because they'll shoot a guy carrying a bomb so they can't detonate it. So bigoted.

eliakon wrote:it does a worse job of protecting them than other nations that are not using evil methods to pursue evil goals.

If you want to bring up other nations, use specifics, and preferably do it in a new thread so we can have a properly thorough conversation that's not all over the place.

Shark_Force wrote:which they also aren't doing when they prevent their citizens from gaining knowledge that can improve their lives

Or end them. I'm sure the Great City of Nostrous once in Old Chicago let you read all kinds of knowledge, right up until it led a Shifter to summon a demonic army that killed all kinds of people.

What was the Coming of the Rifts triggered by again? Perhaps too much exposure to knowledge of how to make nuclear armaments?

Shark_Force wrote:they wouldn't have spent 20 years threatening tolkeen and then invaded when tolkeen was not doing anything to provoke them.

Except harboring terrorists and creating war machines which were already commented on in Rifts Mercenaries (Robot Control dealt with them)

eliakon wrote:The whole idea that others must be abused and destroyed for the betterment of a tiny minority (True CS Citizens as opposed to the non-citizen subjects) is, in and of itself, a fundamentally evil idea.

This is a red herring. The CS does not only protect its citizenry. It protects humanity in general. Like when the CS squad of SAMAS rescued the town of humans near the ocean taken over by a Lorica Wraith and its band of slavers, inadvertantly saving Erin Tarn.

This type of thing is a regular occurance. The CS may prioritize its own citizens and borders, but they are not the sole thing of import.

nilgravity wrote:they actively try to keep their population ignorant/uneducated. To the extent where they are performing 'book burnings' on anything prerifts. It's a cultural genocide.

This concept has come up before, but I have refuted it. They do not try to keep the population ignorant and uneducated, instead they pre-screen information and release information of importance via audio/video format instead of written.

Where do you get this bit about book burnings? The CS apprehends contraband and locks it up. Burning would only be a last resort if they couldn't capture it safely. It isn't cultural genocide, it's cultural ARCHIVAL.

Tor a few issues.
The CS government has an official policy of genocide. It is not some rouge generals, it is a systematic, deliberate, intentional policy.

Second. "making the world safer for the next generation" is not a justification for evil. Especially in palladium the ends do not justify the means.

Does the alignment system reflect the ends being unable to justify means? Breaking the law is a means considered justified if conditions are desperate, ie when breaking the law allows you to avoid a desperate end.

Where's this official policy? I don't see any mandates written into law that you need to wipe out a specific species. The CS doesn't exactly prosecute genocide so it could result, but I don't think that makes it an official policy.

Tor your question is irrelvent. As the aliement is based on a moral code not laws.

According to the writers CS goals are evil. That was put in print in word book 11. So the CS is officaly evil regardless of how much you try to dance around it.

The ends justify the means is genaly a concept used by people that are evil but do not want to admit it.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Tor wrote:Does the alignment system reflect the ends being unable to justify means? Breaking the law is a means considered justified if conditions are desperate, ie when breaking the law allows you to avoid a desperate end.

Where's this official policy? I don't see any mandates written into law that you need to wipe out a specific species. The CS doesn't exactly prosecute genocide so it could result, but I don't think that makes it an official policy.

There have been several citations of where the explicit phrase 'genocidal' is used. The book talks about the Proseks genocidal policies. The Slumph were not killed by rouges. Many races are said to be shot on sight....
It is pretty clear that the CS has an official policy of killing beings that do not conform to their standards.

The citations about how genocidal was used were addressed, I thought they were all adequately debunked as not representing the States overall.

Shoot-on-sight policies are not genocide, they're defense and pressure to convince them to leave. If you shoot enough dragons on sight, maybe they stick to Atlantis and help port it back to the limbo it came from. Way different from chasing them to other dimensions to try and wipe them out, or trying to lure them into your arms with false promises of peace so you can kill them like what the Nazis did. Their priorities were killing, the CS' priorities were purging. Killing is one method used to purge D-Bees but it is not the priority.

I think perhaps since these are scattered, I will have to compile up a list of every mention of genocide in this 10-page thread for a more cohesive overview.

The elephant in the room is of course that Lazlo is also genocidal, so if genocide automatically equals evil or being a bad guy then Lazlo fits the bill, you okay with that?

Lazlo and its leadership has more officially and clearly gotten behind a genocidal policy than the Coalition States EVER have.

Tor wrote:The citations about how genocidal was used were addressed, I thought they were all adequately debunked as not representing the States overall.

Shoot-on-sight policies are not genocide, they're defense and pressure to convince them to leave. If you shoot enough dragons on sight, maybe they stick to Atlantis and help port it back to the limbo it came from. Way different from chasing them to other dimensions to try and wipe them out, or trying to lure them into your arms with false promises of peace so you can kill them like what the Nazis did. Their priorities were killing, the CS' priorities were purging. Killing is one method used to purge D-Bees but it is not the priority.

I think perhaps since these are scattered, I will have to compile up a list of every mention of genocide in this 10-page thread for a more cohesive overview.

Ordering entire races and nations to be wiped out it sort of the definition of genocide. Just because the CS (as of right now) is not actively trying to wipe out all non-earth humans in the megaverse does not mean they are not genocidal.

There is no "the definition". The only evidence worth considering here is when word-of-god text in the books calls something genocide. Killing a race you consider to be dangerous when it invades your territory isn't genocide. Cops have shot bears that wander into towns, doesn't mean they're doing genocide against bears.

I have gone and done a compilation for consideration:



If anyone remembers any I missed, please supplement. I will now put these in order, as an overview, feel free to tell me if I get anything wrong about the essence here. Also included in parenthesis are questions I believe are raised by the wording.

World Book 11 back cover: Emperor READY (not chosen) to launch a campaign of genocide (against whom? perhaps Xiticix?)
World Book 11 page 21: the (Coalition) States have policies of genocide (against whom? perhaps Xiticix?)
World Book 23 page 86: genocide is one of several plans the CS is considering (like Lazlo) against Xiticix
World Book 30 page 93: (Coalition) Army (not States) has targeted the Slurmph in a genocide campaign
World Book 31 page 60: NGR allies in the (Coalition) States (not the entirety of the states, only some of allies within the CS) are able to abide by a policy of genocide against (some) nonhumans
World Book 31 page 65: the (Coalition) States promotes genocide against alien invaders (not specified which, but Xiticix fit the bill)
Coalition Wars 2 back cover: new breed of officers bring genocide to the forefront
Coalition Wars 2 page 15: the (Coalition) States espoouse genocide (against whom? Xiticix?)

I'd like to pretty up a list like this further if we can add more or focus in on what the core arguments are for badness/evilness/genocidalness.

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The argument for the CS leadership being Good might be roughly like that, but the argument for the CS population being overall Good is that the books (iirc) mention that the population is mostly a mix of Good and Selfish alignments.

I am not talking about the people.

Then just say "The CS leadership."
You'll get a lot less argument.

Tor wrote:There is no "the definition". The only evidence worth considering here is when word-of-god text in the books calls something genocide. Killing a race you consider to be dangerous when it invades your territory isn't genocide. Cops have shot bears that wander into towns, doesn't mean they're doing genocide against bears.

I have gone and done a compilation for consideration:

Spoiler:

Introduced to thread by Tor:

Emperor Prosek is ready to launch a surprise military campaign of conquest and genocide!

A new breed of Coalition Officers begin to come to the forefront, and with them cruelty, murder and genocide.

page 86 of WB23: CS Plan A "complete and total genocide" is taken because "unlike most other life forms who are willing to relocate, the Xiticix are not".

Xiticix Invasion 92: "The powers that be at Lazlo have come to conclusions similar to the Coalition States, right down to eliminating the threat via genocide."

Plato in 105 PA: "there is nothing more abhorrent than to advocate genocide .. with the Xiticix we see no other way"

Page 94: Lazlo's "Plan A" is "slow genocide" and "Plan B" is "total genocide"

WB31p60: Unlike their CS allies, the NGR cannot abide by a policy of genocide against nonhumans.
WB31p65: the CS promotes the genocide of the nonhuman "alien invaders."

Introduced to thread by cosmicfish:

World Book 11, page 21: Even more ironic is the fact that the tyranny of Nostrous Dunscon would give birth to an even greater nation of tyrants, the Coalition States, with its policies of human supremacy and genocide.

World Book 11, page 21: There, he waged a two year campaign of genocide in an attempt to destroy "every last vestige of the hell-spawned mystics." He nearly succeeded. An estimated 30,000 sorcerers and their "accomplices" were put to death - most scholars outside the Coalition States estimate roughly half were innocent people, for anybody even suspected of being a practitioner of magic was slaughtered.

pg 7 in SOT 1 explicitly says: "And we are not just talking about the normal casualties of war, the Coalition Army has made it clear in both words and deeds that this is a war of genocide. There will be few, if any prisoners taken or people allowed to live. All practitioners of magic and nonhumans, their supporters, sympathizers and defenders shall be exterminated!"

Siege of Tolkeen 2, page 15: In fact, for the most part, Coalition Overkill is all about how the Coalition is the bad guy, the aggressor, the oppressor. After all, is it really so hard to believe? Sometimes, folks lose sight of this, perhaps because the Coalition employs such a dazzling array of technology that from a playing standpoint, it's easy to forget that the CS espouses many of the things we have grown to detest in modern society — xenophobia, totalitarianism, overt racism, and genocide.

Introduced to thread by Q99:

Slurmphs have been targeted by the Coalition Army due to their ugly, inhuman appearance, in a campaign of genocide.

If anyone remembers any I missed, please supplement. I will now put these in order, as an overview, feel free to tell me if I get anything wrong about the essence here. Also included in parenthesis are questions I believe are raised by the wording.

World Book 11 back cover: Emperor READY (not chosen) to launch a campaign of genocide (against whom? perhaps Xiticix?)
World Book 11 page 21: the (Coalition) States have policies of genocide (against whom? perhaps Xiticix?)
World Book 23 page 86: genocide is one of several plans the CS is considering (like Lazlo) against Xiticix
World Book 30 page 93: (Coalition) Army (not States) has targeted the Slurmph in a genocide campaign
World Book 31 page 60: NGR allies in the (Coalition) States (not the entirety of the states, only some of allies within the CS) are able to abide by a policy of genocide against (some) nonhumans
World Book 31 page 65: the (Coalition) States promotes genocide against alien invaders (not specified which, but Xiticix fit the bill)
Coalition Wars 2 back cover: new breed of officers bring genocide to the forefront
Coalition Wars 2 page 15: the (Coalition) States espoouse genocide (against whom? Xiticix?)

I'd like to pretty up a list like this further if we can add more or focus in on what the core arguments are for badness/evilness/genocidalness.

How about pg 46 of word book 11 where they say the cs cause is evil.


Yo

An emperor, king, Cesar, tyrant IS the nation for all that live under him live at his whim.

The U.S. and any other constitutional type government is normally ran by laws and not at some ones whim.

So while in the U.S. a president may be evil there are means to take care of things IF those means choose to work properly.

In a tyranny the decision for all things ends with those in charge.

So U.S. Though the president may be evil the basis from which the nation was started and hoped to cary on is not and even if all who reside in the nation were evil the nation is not. The nation of America is ran by the people but exists parallel to them

When a tyrant is evil in a nation where the tyrants word IS the law then the tyrant makes the nation. There is no founding document, no foundation which the people expect the tyrant to follow. An evil tyrant makes an tyrrany an evil nation regardless of the alignment of the people residing within the nation.

A true democracy or total Anarchy would be based on the alignment of it's people and a republic would be based on the alignment of its representatives. As the United States is a Constitutional Republic that appoints its representatives through constitutionally established democratic means the alignment is based on that of the founding fathers, until such a time as the representatives twist the purpose of the constitution AND also no longer represent their constituents at which point it is no longer a constitutional democratic republic.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Tor wrote:There is no "the definition". The only evidence worth considering here is when word-of-god text in the books calls something genocide. Killing a race you consider to be dangerous when it invades your territory isn't genocide. Cops have shot bears that wander into towns, doesn't mean they're doing genocide against bears.

I have gone and done a compilation for consideration:

Spoiler:

Introduced to thread by Tor:

Emperor Prosek is ready to launch a surprise military campaign of conquest and genocide!

A new breed of Coalition Officers begin to come to the forefront, and with them cruelty, murder and genocide.

page 86 of WB23: CS Plan A "complete and total genocide" is taken because "unlike most other life forms who are willing to relocate, the Xiticix are not".

Xiticix Invasion 92: "The powers that be at Lazlo have come to conclusions similar to the Coalition States, right down to eliminating the threat via genocide."

Plato in 105 PA: "there is nothing more abhorrent than to advocate genocide .. with the Xiticix we see no other way"

Page 94: Lazlo's "Plan A" is "slow genocide" and "Plan B" is "total genocide"

WB31p60: Unlike their CS allies, the NGR cannot abide by a policy of genocide against nonhumans.
WB31p65: the CS promotes the genocide of the nonhuman "alien invaders."

Introduced to thread by cosmicfish:

World Book 11, page 21: Even more ironic is the fact that the tyranny of Nostrous Dunscon would give birth to an even greater nation of tyrants, the Coalition States, with its policies of human supremacy and genocide.

World Book 11, page 21: There, he waged a two year campaign of genocide in an attempt to destroy "every last vestige of the hell-spawned mystics." He nearly succeeded. An estimated 30,000 sorcerers and their "accomplices" were put to death - most scholars outside the Coalition States estimate roughly half were innocent people, for anybody even suspected of being a practitioner of magic was slaughtered.

pg 7 in SOT 1 explicitly says: "And we are not just talking about the normal casualties of war, the Coalition Army has made it clear in both words and deeds that this is a war of genocide. There will be few, if any prisoners taken or people allowed to live. All practitioners of magic and nonhumans, their supporters, sympathizers and defenders shall be exterminated!"

Siege of Tolkeen 2, page 15: In fact, for the most part, Coalition Overkill is all about how the Coalition is the bad guy, the aggressor, the oppressor. After all, is it really so hard to believe? Sometimes, folks lose sight of this, perhaps because the Coalition employs such a dazzling array of technology that from a playing standpoint, it's easy to forget that the CS espouses many of the things we have grown to detest in modern society — xenophobia, totalitarianism, overt racism, and genocide.

Introduced to thread by Q99:

Slurmphs have been targeted by the Coalition Army due to their ugly, inhuman appearance, in a campaign of genocide.

If anyone remembers any I missed, please supplement. I will now put these in order, as an overview, feel free to tell me if I get anything wrong about the essence here. Also included in parenthesis are questions I believe are raised by the wording.

World Book 11 back cover: Emperor READY (not chosen) to launch a campaign of genocide (against whom? perhaps Xiticix?)
World Book 11 page 21: the (Coalition) States have policies of genocide (against whom? perhaps Xiticix?)
World Book 23 page 86: genocide is one of several plans the CS is considering (like Lazlo) against Xiticix
World Book 30 page 93: (Coalition) Army (not States) has targeted the Slurmph in a genocide campaign
World Book 31 page 60: NGR allies in the (Coalition) States (not the entirety of the states, only some of allies within the CS) are able to abide by a policy of genocide against (some) nonhumans
World Book 31 page 65: the (Coalition) States promotes genocide against alien invaders (not specified which, but Xiticix fit the bill)
Coalition Wars 2 back cover: new breed of officers bring genocide to the forefront
Coalition Wars 2 page 15: the (Coalition) States espoouse genocide (against whom? Xiticix?)

I'd like to pretty up a list like this further if we can add more or focus in on what the core arguments are for badness/evilness/genocidalness.

How about pg 46 of word book 11 where they say the cs cause is evil.


Yo

Tor will probably consider putting that as "pg 46 of word book 11 where they say the cs (army? Leadership?) cause (genocide of xiticix?) is evil (to xiticix?).".

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Tor wrote:There is no "the definition". The only evidence worth considering here is when word-of-god text in the books calls something genocide. Killing a race you consider to be dangerous when it invades your territory isn't genocide. Cops have shot bears that wander into towns, doesn't mean they're doing genocide against bears.

I have gone and done a compilation for consideration:

Spoiler:

Introduced to thread by Tor:

Emperor Prosek is ready to launch a surprise military campaign of conquest and genocide!

A new breed of Coalition Officers begin to come to the forefront, and with them cruelty, murder and genocide.

page 86 of WB23: CS Plan A "complete and total genocide" is taken because "unlike most other life forms who are willing to relocate, the Xiticix are not".

Xiticix Invasion 92: "The powers that be at Lazlo have come to conclusions similar to the Coalition States, right down to eliminating the threat via genocide."

Plato in 105 PA: "there is nothing more abhorrent than to advocate genocide .. with the Xiticix we see no other way"

Page 94: Lazlo's "Plan A" is "slow genocide" and "Plan B" is "total genocide"

WB31p60: Unlike their CS allies, the NGR cannot abide by a policy of genocide against nonhumans.
WB31p65: the CS promotes the genocide of the nonhuman "alien invaders."

Introduced to thread by cosmicfish:

World Book 11, page 21: Even more ironic is the fact that the tyranny of Nostrous Dunscon would give birth to an even greater nation of tyrants, the Coalition States, with its policies of human supremacy and genocide.

World Book 11, page 21: There, he waged a two year campaign of genocide in an attempt to destroy "every last vestige of the hell-spawned mystics." He nearly succeeded. An estimated 30,000 sorcerers and their "accomplices" were put to death - most scholars outside the Coalition States estimate roughly half were innocent people, for anybody even suspected of being a practitioner of magic was slaughtered.

pg 7 in SOT 1 explicitly says: "And we are not just talking about the normal casualties of war, the Coalition Army has made it clear in both words and deeds that this is a war of genocide. There will be few, if any prisoners taken or people allowed to live. All practitioners of magic and nonhumans, their supporters, sympathizers and defenders shall be exterminated!"

Siege of Tolkeen 2, page 15: In fact, for the most part, Coalition Overkill is all about how the Coalition is the bad guy, the aggressor, the oppressor. After all, is it really so hard to believe? Sometimes, folks lose sight of this, perhaps because the Coalition employs such a dazzling array of technology that from a playing standpoint, it's easy to forget that the CS espouses many of the things we have grown to detest in modern society — xenophobia, totalitarianism, overt racism, and genocide.

Introduced to thread by Q99:

Slurmphs have been targeted by the Coalition Army due to their ugly, inhuman appearance, in a campaign of genocide.

If anyone remembers any I missed, please supplement. I will now put these in order, as an overview, feel free to tell me if I get anything wrong about the essence here. Also included in parenthesis are questions I believe are raised by the wording.

World Book 11 back cover: Emperor READY (not chosen) to launch a campaign of genocide (against whom? perhaps Xiticix?)
World Book 11 page 21: the (Coalition) States have policies of genocide (against whom? perhaps Xiticix?)
World Book 23 page 86: genocide is one of several plans the CS is considering (like Lazlo) against Xiticix
World Book 30 page 93: (Coalition) Army (not States) has targeted the Slurmph in a genocide campaign
World Book 31 page 60: NGR allies in the (Coalition) States (not the entirety of the states, only some of allies within the CS) are able to abide by a policy of genocide against (some) nonhumans
World Book 31 page 65: the (Coalition) States promotes genocide against alien invaders (not specified which, but Xiticix fit the bill)
Coalition Wars 2 back cover: new breed of officers bring genocide to the forefront
Coalition Wars 2 page 15: the (Coalition) States espoouse genocide (against whom? Xiticix?)

I'd like to pretty up a list like this further if we can add more or focus in on what the core arguments are for badness/evilness/genocidalness.

How about pg 46 of word book 11 where they say the cs cause is evil.


Yo

Tor will probably consider putting that as "pg 46 of word book 11 where they say the cs (army? Leadership?) cause (genocide of xiticix?) is evil (to xiticix?).".

You write he is adding allot of misdirect words in that are not part of the original text. and focusing heavily on the Xit to exclude any other possible consideration he can. But that is using a book that at the time 11 was written where not out at the time and world books references to a campian are more likely the one described in book 11.

The book makes a few things quire clear, The CS are one of Kevin's favorite villains, The CS leadership is evil (stated as such), not all the CS people are evil but are mislead into fallowing a evil cause. (by the CS leadership.) The CS as a whole is never painted in text as good guys but often referenced with strong negative tones. His undying support and the way he tries to twist things make him sound like a PR man for a Racist group.

As far as I am concerned I have proven without a doubt that the CS goals are evil, the CS leadership is evil. So even though there may be some good in because as Kevin said no society is ever fully good or evil, the CS as a whole can be considered a force of evil. serving the intrest of its diabolic evil emperor.

Serving the interests of it's diabolic evil emperor? Pshaw, they got enough evil officers who lack loyalty and try to grab power for themselves that you could say the institution's evil is enough on its own.

But people are people.

As a reminder it's a good idea to NOT discuss an individual poster like that, it's against the forum rules to make things about the poster like that and can get you a warning.

Blue_Lion wrote:pg 46 of word book 11 where they say the cs cause is evil.

"As loyal believers in the human supremacist regime of Karl Prosek, these soldiers are, without a doubt, misguided individuals unwittingly serving an evil cause.

This does not call the cause of the Coalition States evil. It does not call human supremacy evil. It does not call the cause of any Prosek evil. It calls Karl's regime (or at least some aspect of it, an unidentified 'cause') evil. Which I'm totally okay with, since he's Diabolic and all that.

The regime of Alistair Dunscon (and I would also argue, the regime of Nostrous Dunscon, perhaps to a lesser degree) can easily be called evil. That doesn't make the Federation of Magic evil or the bad guy. Having evil leaders doesn't make your entire nation worth summarizing as evil.

Zer0 Kay wrote:The U.S. and any other constitutional type government is normally ran by laws and not at some ones whim.

The Coalition States also has laws, and law-based nations like the US still have ruler whims affect their policies, or are we forgetting presidential vetoes or filibusters?

Zer0 Kay wrote:in the U.S. a president may be evil there are means to take care of things IF those means choose to work properly.

Who says there's no means for that in the Coalition States as well? Just because Karl is "emperor for life" doesn't mean he can't be replaced as Chairman if people desire an election. It is possible to maintain a monarch while limiting their power to affect the nation. Look at what Britain/Japan did.

Zer0 Kay wrote:a nation where the tyrants word IS the law

Are we possibly overestimating Karl's power here?

If Karl suddenly said "all the women of the CS must bear my children", you think everyone's just going to be okay with that? There'd be absolutely no measures in place to respond to that?

Zer0 Kay wrote:A true democracy or total Anarchy would be based on the alignment of it's people and a republic would be based on the alignment of its representatives.

Not true at all. People don't necessarily vote for candidates with the same alignment, even if the candidate is being candid about their views. Selfish people might vote for someone good, to do better than they are capable of or willing to. They may not want to personally sacrifice but see the value in society doing altruiistic things. Similarly, selfish people can vote for someone evil, willing to make brutal choices they know are necessarily but can't bring themselves to personally take part in.

Blue Lion wrote:You write he is adding allot of misdirect words in that are not part of the original text.

I said "Also included in parenthesis are questions I believe are raised by the wording" so I don't see how that is misdirection.

Blue Lion wrote:focusing heavily on the Xit to exclude any other possible consideration he can.

Wrong, I also mentioned the Slurmph. Since they weren't introduced until WB 30 I don't think WB 11 was referring to them though. The Xiticix, on the other hand, have been around since RMB, and WB11 mentions on page 24 that they "will be dealt with". Seems pretty clear that the CS are always genocidal against the Xiticix but just haven't encountered them as much.

I remember something regarding Tolkeen but couldn't find it in the thread so am hoping someone could bring that up again.

Blue Lion wrote:The CS as a whole is never painted in text as good guys

No, just Heroes.

Course you don't need to be painted as a good guy, just not painted as a bad guy.

What nation as a whole IS painted in text as good guys though? Like do you need them to be explicitly called 'good guys' or something? What counter-example and wording are we looking at? If I know what word is good-guy-ifying something like Lazlo/Psyscape then I can know what word to look for in association with the CS.

Blue Lion wrote:I have proven without a doubt that the CS goals are evil

Karl's goals are not the States' goals, they are bigger than him. The States are literally what the message is, not behind the scenes corruption.

Blue Lion wrote:the CS as a whole can be considered a force of evil. serving the intrest of its diabolic evil emperor.

A ruler having evil interests that are served does not make the nation as a whole more evil than good. Leader corruption happens all the time in stuff which is still a net good force.

Tor wrote:

Blue Lion wrote:I have proven without a doubt that the CS goals are evil

Karl's goals are not the States' goals, they are bigger than him. The States are literally what the message is, not behind the scenes corruption.

And the states goals are ALSO conquest and genocide. The entire apparatus is evil. Every single example we have of anyone in power in the entire CS is evil with evil goals. There comes a point where the lack of counter examples is telling in and of itself.

Tor wrote:

Blue Lion wrote:the CS as a whole can be considered a force of evil. serving the intrest of its diabolic evil emperor.

A ruler having evil interests that are served does not make the nation as a whole more evil than good. Leader corruption happens all the time in stuff which is still a net good force.

The CS though is not doing good. It is serving its evil leader with all of its evil sub leaders on a campaign of evil. There is no 'net good' from this.
Never mind that if you want to bring in Ethical Calculus to figure out if there is a net good then your going to have to convince me that making the world safer for a small population at the cost of many larger populations through unnecisarrily evil acts is a 'net good'
since we know the following
1) the CS is only for the protection of its citizens
2) those citizens can only be native born humans with no magic, no mutations, and no education
3) that the genocide of magic and d-bees is not needed for the protection of those citizens

This sort of by definition means that the evil actions the CS has chosen (genocide) are wholly evil. There is no redeeming feature to an evil act that is chosen solely by choice. There is nothing forcing the CS to be evil, they willingly choose that path voluntarily. Thus in the aggreget 'The CS' is evil. Individual citizens and soldiers may not be, but collectively as a whole they are. Just as individual demons may not be evil but as a whole Hades is.

Are you arguing that conquest is always evil? Even when it is seen as reclamation of lands that belonged to your people?

Kinda curious where genocide is stated to be a state goal.

Every single example we have of anyone in power in the entire CS is evil with evil goals.

Carol Black? Ross Underhill?

Even the evil guys don't have 100% evil goals. A lot of them are pretty nice ones like 'protect innocent humans from being eaten'.

The CS though is not doing good. It is serving its evil leader with all of its evil sub leaders on a campaign of evil.

I guess they just accidentally rescue towns from supernatural beings out to enslave them then. D-Bees must flock towards the protection of the burbs in spite of being persecuted because they just love hanging out with evil guys, not because it's a bastion of security in a chaotic world.

the CS is only for the protection of its citizens

Which is why they don't randomly save non-CS towns... oh wait.

those citizens can only be native born humans with no magic, no mutations, and no education

Not so, psionic mutations (and even major super abilities that turn you intangible) and PPE vampirism are permitted mutations. Education is also allowed, just monitored and regulated.

The USA must be pretty anti-education since they don't educate the public on the president's secret nuclear launch codes.

the genocide of magic and d-bees is not needed for the protection of those citizens

Define 'needed' ? If the world were suddenly without D-Bees and without magic and neither could come back, do you think the average human would suddenly be safer, or less safe?

It is obviously possible to take steps to make people safe without banning magic or D-Bees. The CS was doing just that before FoM invaded. They just decided it wasn't enough, and decided more safety would result if they banned them.

The ban isn't genocide: they're pressure d-bees out of their territories and allowing some to live as slaves. Eviction isn't murder. Home defense isn't genocide.

If Hades as a whole is evil then what's up with Lictalon and Greek god Hades Aidoneous? Not sure if former is evil, and 2nd is honorable and seems to do some good (imprisoning Titans) deep in the underground of the Hades dimension.

Tor, you are not providing any book examples of the CS acutauly doing good. Just PR tatics of attacking people pulling things straight from the books.

The CS may claim a goal of protecting humans from evil monsters but I do not think I know of any book examples of large scale operation by the CS to benefit any one other than its leaders/citisens.

No pulling all pure humans from the burbs.-Even though we know they have purged secions of the burbs, and for a human living in the burbs to get CS citizen ship takes years of waiting.

They claim land as belonging to their people that their people have not had control of in what 100s of years.

I do not know of any book examples of CS operations to do any wide scale liberations of humans in NA just claim land, power resources and kill those they do not like.


But please list all book examples of the CS as a whole acting like good guys.

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:I find the world book 11(you know the world book dedicated to the CS military) does a perty good job of painting the CS force of evil.

Karl Prosek is Diabolic evil(PG 214) Joseph Prosek II Aberrant Evil(215) General Cabot Aberrat Evil General Ross Underhill Anarchist. The CS number one enemy is scrupulous (Erin tarn PG 15.) So a group led by a an evil dictator and his evil counsel with number one enemy a scrupulous writer. -That is a good sign of being evil.

ON page 48 it talks about how good CS player charters are likely to drift away from the hard core CS fanticsim.

World book 11 PG 46 "The average soldier is not much different than the average citizen. Their alignments range the full gamut of good selfish and eviel. As loyal believers in human supremacist regime of Karl Prosek, these solders are, without a doubt, misguided individuals unwittingly serving and evil cause."

There you have it the CS own book calls their cause evil. That to me proves without a doubt the CS is evil its people may not be but the CS is.

Nice find there. When a book, written by the settings creator and over all canon setter, explicitly says that a cause is evil that sort of settles the question of if the cause is evil or not....

It doesn't though. If you actually read the book, he's cherry picking things and leaving alot out.

Creative editing can make things sound different than they really are. if you open the book it doesn't state the CS is clearly evil. Infact it says pretty much the opposite. That the average person is generally good or selfish, with evil outliers, and a 'leadership' that is by and large evil. It's been cited before, chapter and verse as it were, but if you cherry pick sentences and leave out others that disprove your point it looks slanted.

I'd advise people to crack open the book and read the entire section for themselves. It's 4 or 5 pages that directly addresses the topic. Leaders might be evil and you can find some evil in the military (Just like any military) but by and large the CS isn't evil they're average people. To cherry pick sentences and purposefully leave the others out is a purposeful attempt at misleading people though selective editing and representation of partial facts

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It doesn't though. If you actually read the book, he's cherry picking things and leaving alot out.

Which a lot of people on this thread, on both sides, are doing. The whole reason this argument is still going on is because there is a percentage of people who will only find, accept, or remember those parts of the text which back their personal view on the issue. It is why this is pointless - those who want to belief that the CS is "good" will find some amount of proof why it is, and those who want to belief that the CS is "bad" will do likewise.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Creative editing can make things sound different than they really are. if you open the book it doesn't state the CS is clearly evil. Infact it says pretty much the opposite. That the average person is generally good or selfish, with evil outliers, and a 'leadership' that is by and large evil. It's been cited before, chapter and verse as it were, but if you cherry pick sentences and leave out others that disprove your point it looks slanted.

The books say that the average person is generally good or selfish, much like the rest of the world. Whether or not that means the "CS is clearly evil" or not depends on whether you tie the alignment of the CS to the mean of its populace or to the sum total of its actions - each path gives you a different result. There have been a great many "evil" nations and empires and groups whose membership would seem to be generally "good" people.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'd advise people to crack open the book and read the entire section for themselves. It's 4 or 5 pages that directly addresses the topic. Leaders might be evil and you can find some evil in the military (Just like any military) but by and large the CS isn't evil they're average people. To cherry pick sentences and purposefully leave the others out is a purposeful attempt at misleading people though selective editing and representation of partial facts

I think at this point everyone has read those passages to which they have access. There have been many, many quotes and references. I don't believe anyone is claiming that the "average people" of the CS are evil. I don't believe that is even a worthwhile question, much less the original one.

Not actually sure why I come back to this thread. Nothing changes.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:I find the world book 11(you know the world book dedicated to the CS military) does a perty good job of painting the CS force of evil.

Karl Prosek is Diabolic evil(PG 214) Joseph Prosek II Aberrant Evil(215) General Cabot Aberrat Evil General Ross Underhill Anarchist. The CS number one enemy is scrupulous (Erin tarn PG 15.) So a group led by a an evil dictator and his evil counsel with number one enemy a scrupulous writer. -That is a good sign of being evil.

ON page 48 it talks about how good CS player charters are likely to drift away from the hard core CS fanticsim.

World book 11 PG 46 "The average soldier is not much different than the average citizen. Their alignments range the full gamut of good selfish and eviel. As loyal believers in human supremacist regime of Karl Prosek, these solders are, without a doubt, misguided individuals unwittingly serving and evil cause."

There you have it the CS own book calls their cause evil. That to me proves without a doubt the CS is evil its people may not be but the CS is.

Nice find there. When a book, written by the settings creator and over all canon setter, explicitly says that a cause is evil that sort of settles the question of if the cause is evil or not....

It doesn't though. If you actually read the book, he's cherry picking things and leaving alot out.

Creative editing can make things sound different than they really are. if you open the book it doesn't state the CS is clearly evil. Infact it says pretty much the opposite. That the average person is generally good or selfish, with evil outliers, and a 'leadership' that is by and large evil. It's been cited before, chapter and verse as it were, but if you cherry pick sentences and leave out others that disprove your point it looks slanted.

I'd advise people to crack open the book and read the entire section for themselves. It's 4 or 5 pages that directly addresses the topic. Leaders might be evil and you can find some evil in the military (Just like any military) but by and large the CS isn't evil they're average people. To cherry pick sentences and purposefully leave the others out is a purposeful attempt at misleading people though selective editing and representation of partial facts

If I was cherry picking I would not have included the part about the CS citizens and soldiers aliment running the full range. I did not quote the whole 5 pages as that would violate PB policy on intellectual property. Your claim that I cherry picked a quote on the CS cause is unfounded as I included part about the peoples alignment running the full spectrum.

If you read my full post I never claimed the people where evil, just the cause that they fallow and leadership are evil.
The CS people may not be evil but the cause of the CS is. (which is stated in my quote.)
If the cause a nation fallows the nation itself is evil even if the people in it are not.

Most of the CS citizens are cooped up in super cities and are not interacted with so there aliment does not affect the actions of CS vs the rest of the world but the actions the military does fallowing the cause of the nation does. Because it is only fallowing the cause of the nation that its influence is projected so that influence and by proxy the nation is evil.
(Most of this debate is on the actions goal/cause of the nation not what aliment the people fallow.)

Blue_Lion wrote:Tor, you are not providing any book examples of the CS acutauly doing good. Just PR tatics of attacking people pulling things straight from the books.

False, perhaps you forgot/missed my earlier mention in Rifts Underseas of Erin Tarn (rabid CS hater) mentioning that a squad of SAMAS saved her and a village of innocent people from a gang of pirates.

She also said this had happened before.

Do you think accidentally saving Erin Tarn on multiple occasions is the sum of the CS doing good? A crazy coincidence that she showed up for every time it infrequently happened?

Or is it more likely evidence of an overwhelming prevalent pattern of the CS coming and saving villages from monsters and freeing humans from slavery, even those who are not citizens?

Blue_Lion wrote:The CS may claim a goal of protecting humans from evil monsters but I do not think I know of any book examples of large scale operation by the CS to benefit any one other than its leaders/citisens.

The Bloody Campaign of Joseph Prosek the First did just this.

The residents of the burbs were not CS citizens and the Coalition avenged them by fighting the enemy who assaulted them.

The CS was not alone in this, other groups (even mages) helped the CS do this, it was a noble cause.

By helping to drive Naruni Enterprises off the continent, they have helped safeguard people from being taken into slavery to pay their debts to this ruthless corporation.

Blue_Lion wrote:No pulling all pure humans from the burbs.-Even though we know they have purged secions of the burbs, and for a human living in the burbs to get CS citizen ship takes years of waiting.

Requiring a waiting period does not negate the deed. Plus the CS providing stability and safety is a benefit in and of itself, even if you don't become a citizen. D-Bees living in the burbs benefit from this. It is still a net good for them, that is why they come. Or are D-Bees stupid/suicidal?

Blue_Lion wrote:They claim land as belonging to their people that their people have not had control of in what 100s of years.

What lands are we talking about specifically here?

Why should there be an expiration date when your people were murdered?

Blue_Lion wrote:I do not know of any book examples of CS operations to do any wide scale liberations of humans in NA

Why does it have to be a big event? A series of small events add up to be big. Tarn wasn't saved for the first time in Underseas and I don't think the CS opts only to rescue towns she happens to be lurking in.

Tarn gets accidentally rescued while trying to AVOID the CS because she's numbered 1 most wanted. That says a huge deal. Even lurking in some ocean-side town, she can't help getting saved by the CS, because they're all over the continent going out of their way to rescue enslaved humans from monsters.

Tor wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Tor, you are not providing any book examples of the CS acutauly doing good. Just PR tatics of attacking people pulling things straight from the books.

False, perhaps you forgot/missed my earlier mention in Rifts Underseas of Erin Tarn (rabid CS hater) mentioning that a squad of SAMAS saved her and a village of innocent people from a gang of pirates.

She also said this had happened before.

Do you think accidentally saving Erin Tarn on multiple occasions is the sum of the CS doing good? A crazy coincidence that she showed up for every time it infrequently happened?

Or is it more likely evidence of an overwhelming prevalent pattern of the CS coming and saving villages from monsters and freeing humans from slavery, even those who are not citizens?

Or just that the CS will attack and destroy anything that is not human......it proves nothing that they moved in to attack.

Tor wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:The CS may claim a goal of protecting humans from evil monsters but I do not think I know of any book examples of large scale operation by the CS to benefit any one other than its leaders/citisens.

The Bloody Campaign of Joseph Prosek the First did just this.

The residents of the burbs were not CS citizens and the Coalition avenged them by fighting the enemy who assaulted them.

The CS was not alone in this, other groups (even mages) helped the CS do this, it was a noble cause.

You mean the campaign that was explicitly described in the book as genocide? I would say right there that mass murder of the innocent to such an extent that it is termed 'genocidal' is really a good example of protecting people.

Tor wrote:By helping to drive Naruni Enterprises off the continent, they have helped safeguard people from being taken into slavery to pay their debts to this ruthless corporation.

Except that that is not why they did it. The claim that they were acting nobly to save people from slavery is a nice PR claim....but there is nothing in the books that suggests that they did so to do that, nor that it would have happened (remember a lot of people buy from NE and they don't enslave everyone.....)

Tor wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:No pulling all pure humans from the burbs.-Even though we know they have purged secions of the burbs, and for a human living in the burbs to get CS citizen ship takes years of waiting.

Requiring a waiting period does not negate the deed. Plus the CS providing stability and safety is a benefit in and of itself, even if you don't become a citizen. D-Bees living in the burbs benefit from this. It is still a net good for them, that is why they come. Or are D-Bees stupid/suicidal?

And the deed is not good. You need a proof of the act being good and not selfish to make it a good deed.....selfservidly keeping people in the burbs until they earn their way in through work as jannisaries is not exactly 'good'

Tor wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:They claim land as belonging to their people that their people have not had control of in what 100s of years.

What lands are we talking about specifically here?

Why should there be an expiration date when your people were murdered?

The CS doesn't have claim to the land though. They are not the U.S. Heck if you want to get technical the CS is fighting/stealing the land from the people that do have rightful claim. The Native Americans. So the claim that they have ownership is proveably false.

Tor wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:I do not know of any book examples of CS operations to do any wide scale liberations of humans in NA

Why does it have to be a big event? A series of small events add up to be big. Tarn wasn't saved for the first time in Underseas and I don't think the CS opts only to rescue towns she happens to be lurking in.

Tarn gets accidentally rescued while trying to AVOID the CS because she's numbered 1 most wanted. That says a huge deal. Even lurking in some ocean-side town, she can't help getting saved by the CS, because they're all over the continent going out of their way to rescue enslaved humans from monsters.

Or they are going out of their way to patrol to find non-humans to murder.....with out statements to clairify we can not know what the purpose of these patrols is, and thus we can not claim that they are benevolent.

cosmicfish wrote:there is a percentage of people who will only find, accept, or remember those parts of the text which back their personal view on the issue.

Is there though?

I recall being the first to locate and introduce texts which did not back my personal views (associating the CS in any way with genocide) and quoting statements about that made by others and responding to them (thus remembering).

The bit about 'accept' though, well that depends on what you want to someone to accept, which can vary based on how text is interpreted.

cosmicfish wrote:The books say that the average person is generally good or selfish, much like the rest of the world. Whether or not that means the "CS is clearly evil" or not depends on whether you tie the alignment of the CS to the mean of its populace or to the sum total of its actions

Can't see how having an average good/selfish populace could mean 'CS is evil'. It's a counter-argument to them being evil or an argument used to support a neutral/good view.

cosmicfish wrote:There have been a great many "evil" nations and empires and groups whose membership would seem to be generally "good" people.

Which ones? I don't think Germany as a nation has ever been evil even though there has been leadership and secret agents closer to fitting those terms running it. Oktoberfest was never evil even when evil people were celebrating it.

Blue Lion wrote:I never claimed the people where evil, just the cause that they fallow and leadership are evil.

Saying "the cause" makes it sound pretty singular and important, as if it were the sole cause or prime cause. If it was one of many I would expect to see "a causes" or "some causes" or something.

I think the prime cause of the CS is saving humanity, which is a good goal and not evil at all.

Other causes like "make the Prosek family royalty" and "take alien slaves" or "murder mages" certainly sneak their way in, but their being tolerated or being able to exist amidst the CS doesn't make them rise so much in importance that I would identify the CS by these causes.

Blue Lion wrote:there aliment does not affect the actions of CS vs the rest of the world but the actions the military does fallowing the cause of the nation does.

What's this 'cause of the nation' you speak of? Where is a cause spelled out and where is it given such importance as to refer to it by the definite article "THE cause" ?

Blue Lion wrote:Because it is only fallowing the cause of the nation that its influence is projected so that influence and by proxy the nation is evil.

I do not agree that military maneuvers are the only influence that the Coalition projects.

eliakon wrote:Or just that the CS will attack and destroy anything that is not human......it proves nothing that they moved in to attack.

We know that the CS doesn't attack/destroy anything inhuman. Dog Boys and D-Bee slaves/burb-lurkers prove that.

By moving in to attack they put themselves at a loss of resources (rail gun ammo) and at risk of damage, they went out of their way to help some people far from their borders when they could've ignored it and gone savely home.

Also, the CS didn't just attack: at least 3 of the soldiers doing so DIED.

They didn't just die from gunfire or anything: the 3 we are told tied, did so in HtH with the Lorica Wraith. Possibly more died if we consider unmentioned fatalities from the armed pirates/slavers working for the Wraith.

Why would CS soldiers be in HtH range with a Wraith? These things are a little over twice as fast as us even on the ground, and they do have pretty nice reach. But even so: at best they can smack you from 30ft away.

CS standard issue weapons let them shoot from much further than this. The flying SAMAS could've eventually killed this thing by hovering above it and rail-gunning. There was absolutely no need for non-flying soldiers to put themselves at risk to engage this land-bound thing.

Yet... they did. They closed in. Why?

Could it have somethign to do with putting themselves in the line of fire to save the innocent people in the town? The militia and Winslow Thorpe who were trying to fight it off and getting slaughtered?

It's not so much the attacking, it's the self-sacrifice, the risk they endure, the cost.

What happened here can't just be shrugged off like an infinite-payload Enforcer using his lasers to zap some HtH thing from far off with no risk to itself.

eliakon wrote:I would say right there that mass murder of the innocent to such an extent that it is termed 'genocidal' is really a good example of protecting people.

Innocense is not a prerequisite to call the extermination of a people a genocide. You could wipe out a 100% diabolic species and still have it be called genocide.

We're told half the people executed were innocent (initially in CWCp21 as an estimate by non-CS scholars, FoMp11 presents "half of which had nothing to do with" in a factual tone though). Innocent people being killed can still be part of a maneuver that protects people.

Considering the CS did not have Dog-Boys or Psi Bat/Net until 85 PA, their detection methods were not as expansive as they are now. I'm sure they did have some number of Psi-Stalkers or psychics (and even mages and d-bees, back then) it's clear they didn't have enough to do the job, since that could have easily prevented the killing of innocents.

eliakon wrote:that is not why they did it. The claim that they were acting nobly to save people from slavery is a nice PR claim....but there is nothing in the books that suggests that they did so to do that

Mercs 67 says the CS suspects Naruni wants to invade and conquer North America, and we are told this isn't far from truth. An NGR ambassador even views them as a threat to international security. We're also told they're viewed as dangerous by Whykin and Arkansas, even Wilk's who have flack with CS over their non-metal weapons bans.

eliakon wrote:nor that it would have happened (remember a lot of people buy from NE and they don't enslave everyone.....)

Mercs 69 has a note from KS saying "the CS is correct" about Naruni being dangerous. We're explicitly told they have a policy of encouraging clients to buy more than they can afford so that NE can seize land/resources/people as payment. Trader Joe (an Unprincipled, 'basically good' is how the alignment is often described) is perceiving people as "clients/victims".

Out of the clients that Naruni sells too, all these roving mercs, how many of them completely lack land or resource rights or operations? So what's left to pay their bills after NE repos their gear at a reduced cost? Slavery.

eliakon wrote:You need a proof of the act being good and not selfish to make it a good deed

Get back to me when you can absolutely prove anything to be this. Pretty much any good deed can be broken down into factors of self-interest.

I'm judging by net good, because if you want to go down this path of guilty until proven innocent then you've got other nations (includiing pretties like Psyscape and Lazlo) to put under the microscope as well.

BTW does dying trying to free innocents from slavery qualify?

eliakon wrote:Or they are going out of their way to patrol to find non-humans to murder.

Not according to Erin, she describes the SAMAS group as being on their way home from maneuvers when they came to investigate a commotion.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:there is a percentage of people who will only find, accept, or remember those parts of the text which back their personal view on the issue.

I recall being the first to locate and introduce texts which did not back my personal views (associating the CS in any way with genocide) and quoting statements about that made by others and responding to them (thus remembering).

Congratulations, your mother always said you were very advanced for your age.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:The books say that the average person is generally good or selfish, much like the rest of the world. Whether or not that means the "CS is clearly evil" or not depends on whether you tie the alignment of the CS to the mean of its populace or to the sum total of its actions

Can't see how having an average good/selfish populace could mean 'CS is evil'. It's a counter-argument to them being evil or an argument used to support a neutral/good view.

"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." - John Stuart Mill.

Yours is a grossly incomplete counterargument, for it assumes that you can take one horrendous, powerful evil, and one tiny, powerless good, and somehow balance them to a form of neutrality. It does not matter that the majority of the CS civilians are good or selfish if their natures and resources do not actually lead them to do any significant amount of good.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:There have been a great many "evil" nations and empires and groups whose membership would seem to be generally "good" people.

Which ones? I don't think Germany as a nation has ever been evil even though there has been leadership and secret agents closer to fitting those terms running it. Oktoberfest was never evil even when evil people were celebrating it.

Then you are saying that no group can be evil unless a majority of its membership is evil? That would mean that power and influence are meaningless in the calculation of evil - a society where 49% of the population are educated, rampaging, billionaire Hitlers is good because 51% of the population are ignorant, mild, poor, powerless
milquetoasts hiding in their basements.

If that is your point, then literally, what is there to argue?

As a toss back to the original post, does anyone else remember when there was only the main rulebook and the CS was literally the only enemy/villain/"bad guy" for the players to oppose? Back when the Vampire Kingdoms and Atlantis and even ARCHIE 3 were just vague references to be explored at the GM's peril?

CWCp18 "Among the list of crimes leveled against Naruni Enterprise is that they deliberately fuel dissension and instigate war, particularly among nonhumans in neighboring territories (which is true, because it's good for business)."

So fair enough, the concern about conquering touching on the reality of their enslaving policies is not the CS' only one. Dealing with warmongers who promote people into conflict with the CS and equipping them to do so is also a very good reason which protects humans in and out of the CS.

Since examples of good things the CS has done are being asked for, page 18 also reminds us that the Coalition States helped neutralize the UTI aliens in Newton during the Juicer Uprising. If not for that, North America could be on its way to being conquered by Phoenix Juicers and Techno-zombies.

If not for the persecuting of necromancers and similar who live in the FoM and other magic-friendly kingdoms, we'd probably also see a heck of a lot more Murder Wraiths jumping around.

cosmicfish wrote:assumes that you can take one horrendous, powerful evil, and one tiny, powerless good, and somehow balance them to a form of neutrality

You are describing the sum of CS evils as horrendous and the sum of CS goods as tiny. I don't agree with this weighing.

cosmicfish wrote:It does not matter that the majority of the CS civilians are good or selfish if their natures and resources do not actually lead them to do any significant amount of good.

I do not view the good done by CS citizens to be insignificant.

I'm perceiving a reliance on vague emotional adjectives. Tell me what your bar for good is and what accomplishments warrant the label, and what fations in Rifts Earth meet your criteria, so it's possible to use stats to actually weigh the veracity.

cosmicfish wrote:a society where 49% of the population are educated, rampaging, billionaire Hitlers is good because 51% of the population are ignorant, mild, poor, powerless milquetoasts hiding in their basements.

No, because selfish and evil aligned people can also hide in their basements, and (assuming no selfishes exist in this example) I'd average a 51good 49evil society to be mean-selfish not mean-good.

cosmicfish wrote:As a toss back to the original post, does anyone else remember when there was only the main rulebook and the CS was literally the only enemy/villain/"bad guy" for the players to oppose?

No, because even then we had Xiticix, rampaging dinosaurs and fury beetles, headhunter warlords, sugar-hyped gun-wielding vagabonds, Golgo 13 juicers, mentally unstable Crazies, guys who want to Melt My Mind, randomly generated supernatural beings that any level 1 shifter could summon, and evil mages in the Federation of Magic who could create skeletons/mummies/zombies/golems for you to battle.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:there is a percentage of people who will only find, accept, or remember those parts of the text which back their personal view on the issue.

Is there though?

I recall being the first to locate and introduce texts which did not back my personal views (associating the CS in any way with genocide) and quoting statements about that made by others and responding to them (thus remembering).

The bit about 'accept' though, well that depends on what you want to someone to accept, which can vary based on how text is interpreted.

On that last point (which I did not earlier address and, since there is a subsequent post, will address separately), the very first words of CWC are "The Coalition States and Emperor Prosek are the villains everbody loves to hate. I know I do." And while there are many definitions of "villain", they all include "evil" or "bad". I am not sure how else to interpret Kevin's own words than "The CS is the bad guy". And your attempts to present such an interpretation merely tells me that we are not speaking the same language.

Tor wrote:Since examples of good things the CS has done are being asked for, page 18 also reminds us that the Coalition States helped neutralize the UTI aliens in Newton during the Juicer Uprising. If not for that, North America could be on its way to being conquered by Phoenix Juicers and Techno-zombies.

Ummmmm cleaning up their own mess (caused by their own plan to trick tens of thousands of juicers to fight for them and then kill them) isn't exactly 'good'

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:It does not matter that the majority of the CS civilians are good or selfish if their natures and resources do not actually lead them to do any significant amount of good.

I do not view the good done by CS citizens to be insignificant.

I'm perceiving a reliance on vague emotional adjectives. Tell me what your bar for good is and what accomplishments warrant the label, and what fations in Rifts Earth meet your criteria, so it's possible to use stats to actually weigh the veracity.

Well, I would say that good supports life and freedom to at least some degree that it requires sacrifice, and I would say that evil harms life and freedom noticeably beyond what is necessary for their own survival, and I would say that selfish lies in between, unwilling to sacrifice for good but unwilling to harm beyond need. If you want examples, I would suggest Lazlo as a good example in North America - nearly every Rifts book has some faction(s) that represent a haven of good. But I have no doubt that you would by the cursory definitions I just gave consider the CS to be selfish, as you consider the harm they have done to be within the scope of their need... and there is nowhere to go with that - it elevates the desire for totalitarian power to a level of need that justifies squashing freedom and killing many, and if that is what you think then I cannot possibly see a middle ground.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:a society where 49% of the population are educated, rampaging, billionaire Hitlers is good because 51% of the population are ignorant, mild, poor, powerless milquetoasts hiding in their basements.

No, because selfish and evil aligned people can also hide in their basements, and (assuming no selfishes exist in this example) I'd average a 51good 49evil society to be mean-selfish not mean-good.

On the first point, so? I have no doubt that there are selfish and evil people hiding in the basements of the CS, but I have yet to hear about any significant number of good people enacting good on behalf of the CS - indeed, the few who are mentioned are in danger of losing their lives or being removed from the very positions that made good possible.

On the second point, so? Again? The point is that the simple percentages of their alignments is meaningless unless it includes the effects of their individual influence. 51% good and 49% evil only nets anywhere near selfish if the percentages are in terms of total actions along each alignment, not simply in the percentage of people. If the good 51% of the population does 1 "average good act" in the same time that the evil does 1 "equivalently bad act", then sure... but the good of the CS are predominantly cooped up behind walls doing net-selfish acts while the military and government dole out evil acts wholesale on the world around them. And that doesn't balance to not-evil.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:As a toss back to the original post, does anyone else remember when there was only the main rulebook and the CS was literally the only enemy/villain/"bad guy" for the players to oppose?

No, because even then we had Xiticix, rampaging dinosaurs and fury beetles, headhunter warlords, sugar-hyped gun-wielding vagabonds, Golgo 13 juicers, mentally unstable Crazies, guys who want to Melt My Mind, randomly generated supernatural beings that any level 1 shifter could summon, and evil mages in the Federation of Magic who could create skeletons/mummies/zombies/golems for you to battle.

We did have two pages of Xiticix, which does little more than give them characteristics and describe them as aggressive, animal-like creatures. Dinosaurs are given stats, but no real indication that they are anything more than an occasional nuisance. Fury Beetles are no longer much of a terror, being hunted for food, harvested for armor, and used as riding animals. The rest of the things you mention are OCCs and RCCs with no indication of the percentages that are good or evil - you decry "guys who want to Melt Your Mind" while ignoring the "guys who want to Stop That With Their Own Mind Powers."

Yes, the world of Rifts is a scary place, for the timid. It was very much meant to be so, on the assumption that the PC's would not be timid individuals who would not see every possible entity capable of doing them harm as necessary targets to avoid destruction.

Also, as a note, right after Dinosaurs the TMB gives "Rogues and Other Antagonists" which lists two Coalition types and one headhunter. The Coalition was intended to be antagonists to the protagonistic players, and got dozens of pages (and later, many books!) to explain why.

cosmicfish wrote: I am not sure how else to interpret Kevin's own words than "The CS is the bad guy". And your attempts to present such an interpretation merely tells me that we are not speaking the same language.

RUE 230
This contradiction has confused and frustrated some gamers, who prefer a clear line between Good and Evil. I'm frequently asked, "So is the Coalition good or evil?" and I get a frown or head-scratching when I say, "Yes."

cosmicfish wrote:first words of CWC are "[i]The Coalition States and Emperor Prosek are the villains everbody loves to hate

Villain can be a subjective role though, isn't it basically like 'antagonist' ? Then again, I guess 'bad guy' is the same.

cosmicfish wrote:not sure how else to interpret Kevin's own words than "The CS is the bad guy".

THE? Why not "the CS is a bad guy"?

I actually see it as more of a "the CS can be your enemy" not 'they must be'.

KS doesn't make any enemy or side mandatory, he's simply pointing out that the CS are commonly used as villains (prob because at least 1 party member is going to be a scholar/d-bee/mage) and that he loves to hate them.

Kind of like how you can love to hate Doctor Doom or Darth Vader. Them being regular villains doesn't mean you can't play on their side.

eliakon wrote:their own mess (caused by their own plan to trick tens of thousands of juicers to fight for them and then kill them)

Karl and Lyboc were in on it, and some of the upper officers. I figure most were in the dark.

Some deception was involved (thinking a few extra years, advertising decades) but they still thought they were extending Juicer life-spans, and killing them would only be done if they attacked the CS.

Whatever intended, they still stopped the UTI aliens which is a big deal. Without CS backing, Newtown still could have succeeded in creating a juicer army. If not for the CS confusion, the conspiracy might've taken longer to uncover.

cosmicfish wrote:good supports life and freedom to at least some degree that it requires sacrifice

Sounds like the CS to me. Safety for people creates freedom for them.

cosmicfish wrote:I would say that evil harms life and freedom noticeably beyond what is necessary for their own survival

What the CS has done is necessary for the survival of people they have saved with their policy, which I think numbers higher than 0.

cosmicfish wrote:I would suggest Lazlo as a good example in North America

They're a convenient Mary-Sue city-state since they haven't gotten a proper fleshing out yet. Feels like we know very little of them save what comes through the rose-colored glasses of Tarn.

cosmicfish wrote:it elevates the desire for totalitarian power to a level of need that justifies squashing freedom and killing many

Killing many is needed if there are many threats.

Totalitarian power is not the main aim of the CS, and even if Karl has persued it by becoming an Emperor, couldn't that just be a means to an end of getting the job done? Even Joseph, who isn't as fanatic as his dad about anti-magic stuff, would see it as the means to the end of an entertaining challenge.

cosmicfish wrote: I have yet to hear about any significant number of good people enacting good on behalf of the CS

What about all the farmers out there feeding and raising children? All the communities benefitting from CS protection as they become allies or member states?

cosmicfish wrote:We did have two pages of Xiticix, which does little more than give them characteristics and describe them as aggressive, animal-like creatures.

A descriptor that could apply to humans too.

With Queens smarter than humans, with a minimum IQ the same as humans, unsurpassed by Orcs in CB1 when it arrived.

How much did we really get about the CS and who they are? A lot of the bulk was their gear or skill sets for their warrior classes. Pg 49-51 is around a page and a half when you ignore the pics, same with Pg 107-109 for Psi-Hounds, and the summaries in 'Traversing Our Modern World' can't be relied upon since they come from a rogue wanted subversive.

I think some of you might want to re read your books.

Lets see the CS is called a villain in there book by kevin what does villain mean.
http://www.audioenglish.org/dictionary/villain.htm
• VILLAIN (noun)
The noun VILLAIN has 2 senses:
1. a wicked or evil person; someone who does evil deliberately
2. the principle bad character in a film or work of fiction

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/villain
noun
1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
2. a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villain
A villain (also known in film and literature as the "antagonist," "baddie", "bad guy", "heavy" or "black hat") is an "evil" character in a story, whether a historical narrative or, especially, a work of fiction. The villain usually is the antagonist (though can be the protagonist), the character who tends to have a negative effect on other characters. A female villain is occasionally called a villainess (often to differentiate her from a male villain). Random House Unabridged Dictionary defines villain as "a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel; or a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot


Full Definition of VILLAIN

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/villain
1: villein
2: an uncouth person : boor
3: a deliberate scoundrel or criminal
4: a character in a story or play who opposes the hero
5: one blamed for a particular evil or difficulty <automation as the villain in job … displacement — M. H. Goldberg>

Sorry Tor looks like most common uses of villain for bad guys.

And as Karl sets polices that CS fallows if his agenda is evil then the agenda the nation fallows as a whole is evil.

But then again you probably just going to throw in more misdirection. Like when I said they have not had a claim to land in 100s of years and you counter with a comment about time limit on murder.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

cosmicfish wrote: I am not sure how else to interpret Kevin's own words than "The CS is the bad guy". And your attempts to present such an interpretation merely tells me that we are not speaking the same language.

RUE 230
This contradiction has confused and frustrated some gamers, who prefer a clear line between Good and Evil. I'm frequently asked, "So is the Coalition good or evil?" and I get a frown or head-scratching when I say, "Yes."

He is talking about how the CS is a different kind of enemy than, for example, demons and vampires that perform essentially zero good acts, whereas the CS does perform good acts if only when they specifically involve killing evil creatures and protecting innocent humans (which absolutely does happen, right along with killing good creatures and protecting evil humans). In no small part this is because players don't interact with the CS as a whole, they interact with individuals and squads, some (perhaps many or most, depending on the GM) of whom will be of good alignments. The CS has the potential to turn into a major force for good but is currently directed to great evil - again, something that echoes Nazi Germany.

cosmicfish wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

cosmicfish wrote: I am not sure how else to interpret Kevin's own words than "The CS is the bad guy". And your attempts to present such an interpretation merely tells me that we are not speaking the same language.

RUE 230
This contradiction has confused and frustrated some gamers, who prefer a clear line between Good and Evil. I'm frequently asked, "So is the Coalition good or evil?" and I get a frown or head-scratching when I say, "Yes."

He is talking about how the CS is a different kind of enemy than, for example, demons and vampires that perform essentially zero good acts, whereas the CS does perform good acts if only when they specifically involve killing evil creatures and protecting innocent humans (which absolutely does happen, right along with killing good creatures and protecting evil humans). In no small part this is because players don't interact with the CS as a whole, they interact with individuals and squads, some (perhaps many or most, depending on the GM) of whom will be of good alignments. The CS has the potential to turn into a major force for good but is currently directed to great evil - again, something that echoes Nazi Germany.

Sounds to me more like he's saying that there isn't any black-and-white answer to the question of whether "the CS" is good or evil.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:first words of CWC are "The Coalition States and Emperor Prosek are the villains everbody loves to hate

Villain can be a subjective role though, isn't it basically like 'antagonist' ? Then again, I guess 'bad guy' is the same.

It is about as subjective as "evil" and "bad", which again is why this argument cannot go anywhere - there are no doubt things that you consider evil that I do not, and vice versa. But for them to be specifically described as villains means that just as evil is fixed in this universe and no longer subjective, so too is the Coalition placed (currently!) on that side.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:not sure how else to interpret Kevin's own words than "The CS is the bad guy".

THE? Why not "the CS is a bad guy"?

I actually see it as more of a "the CS can be your enemy" not 'they must be'.

KS doesn't make any enemy or side mandatory, he's simply pointing out that the CS are commonly used as villains (prob because at least 1 party member is going to be a scholar/d-bee/mage) and that he loves to hate them.

Kind of like how you can love to hate Doctor Doom or Darth Vader. Them being regular villains doesn't mean you can't play on their side.

I said "THE bad guy" because that parallels the title of the thread. In truth, there are always multiple bad guys and you may find yourself ignoring or even allying with some of them in order to focus on a greater evil. But that doesn't mean that they aren't bad guys, something the US has hopefully learned after the Cold War (ha-ha, of course we didn't!).

As to the CS being villains to the party, then I would say that this true about 99% of the time. Just going back to the Main Book, the proportion of OCCs/RCCs that are even usually acceptable to the CS is small enough that CS-friendly parties are going to be vanishingly small. And loving to hate them doesn't change the fact that you hate them.

And yes, you can play on the side of the bad guys, perhaps even without being a bad guy yourself, but that doesn't mean that they aren't bad guys, it just means that you are playing that role.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:good supports life and freedom to at least some degree that it requires sacrifice

Sounds like the CS to me. Safety for people creates freedom for them.

Wow. First, they squash freedom even for their own, and "safety" is a ridiculous standard - someone in solitary confinement has safety... but zero freedom. The Declaration of Independence lists "life" and "liberty" separately because having one neither guarantees nor even implies the other. Second, "good" requires that the life and freedom supported is more than your own, and that the sacrifice is largely your own. If I rob some guy, my life and freedom may be better supported and he may well have sacrificed, that doesn't make what I did "good".

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:I would say that evil harms life and freedom noticeably beyond what is necessary for their own survival

What the CS has done is necessary for the survival of people they have saved with their policy, which I think numbers higher than 0.

There was a short skit we used to do at Boy Scout campfires where you see a guy banging the ground with a stick, another guy walks up and asks why he is doing it. The first says "I'm keeping the alligators away!", the second points out "there aren't any alligators for a thousand miles!", and the first replies "Yeah, I'm doing a pretty good job, aren't I?"

The presence of living humans is not proof of the virtue or necessity of their policies. It just proves that people lived, and doesn't even prove that they would have otherwise died.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:I would suggest Lazlo as a good example in North America

They're a convenient Mary-Sue city-state since they haven't gotten a proper fleshing out yet. Feels like we know very little of them save what comes through the rose-colored glasses of Tarn.

Well, that's just the way the world of Rifts works - the tendency is for corruption and evil, not to justify or glorify it but simply to make for a challenging game world!

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:it elevates the desire for totalitarian power to a level of need that justifies squashing freedom and killing many

Killing many is needed if there are many threats.

And yet many of those killed are not threats, any more than is someone with an MDC rifle and armor.

Tor wrote:Totalitarian power is not the main aim of the CS, and even if Karl has persued it by becoming an Emperor, couldn't that just be a means to an end of getting the job done? Even Joseph, who isn't as fanatic as his dad about anti-magic stuff, would see it as the means to the end of an entertaining challenge.

Totalitarianism is the main process of the CS, and it suppresses their good citizens and amplifies their evil. And justifying it as a means to an end means accepting that their (The CS? The Proseks?) desired end is worth the means that they use to obtain it. And I cannot see that.

Tor wrote:

cosmicfish wrote: I have yet to hear about any significant number of good people enacting good on behalf of the CS

What about all the farmers out there feeding and raising children? All the communities benefitting from CS protection as they become allies or member states?

So... the CS benefits the CS and tends to its own basic needs? That is a characteristic of any group that wishes to continue, good, selfish, or even evil.

Tor wrote:How much did we really get about the CS and who they are? A lot of the bulk was their gear or skill sets for their warrior classes. Pg 49-51 is around a page and a half when you ignore the pics, same with Pg 107-109 for Psi-Hounds, and the summaries in 'Traversing Our Modern World' can't be relied upon since they come from a rogue wanted subversive.

First, there is a lot of detail about them in the OCC descriptions, including wonderful detail about reasons why CS soldiers would be in a party (#2: spying on them!), what will happen to CS soldiers who develop a conscience, and how members of the Dog Pack are considered trained animals and not intelligent equals. Second, if you are going to summarily discard the words of Erin Tarn you should really compare her writings with the actual write-ups - there are a few things that she gets wrong but she was included as a way to convey the reality of the world to the players and her descriptions are generally in step with the rules.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Sounds to me more like he's saying that there isn't any black-and-white answer to the question of whether "the CS" is good or evil.

Sure, because he is talking about player interactions, and the PC's don't interact with the Coalition as a whole but rather with a sampling of its less-powerful members who span the typical range of alignments. The whole section where this is discussed is talking about individuals in the CS, not the CS as a whole. There is no black and white answer because the question is being asked at the small scale, not the large scale of the OP.

And that section of RUE also includes this line: I do see the CS as villains. That means that while the Coalition may not be wholly evil, that is where the balance lies.

So we have explicit statements in various places of the evil and villainy of the CS. Do we have citations of them doing good? Not "some act that can be interpreted as good with the right spin." not "Well if we make a whole lot of unfounded assmptions not found in the books then this might be good" but actual, factual. "On this day, in this place the CS did this specific good thing for this good reason?"
The reason I ask is that even the Splugorth helped to fight the Four Horsemen.....that doesn't make them good, just pragmatic
Some of the vampire kingdoms offer their citizens safety (as blood slaves). That too does not make them good.
So claims that the CS is not evil, despite its evil actions, because it has performed some nebulous actions that help fight evil and promote safety would need some sort of standard of proof. Otherwise we can point to anyone anywhere doing anything that inconveniences any evil anywhere and claim that they too are 'good guys' (Hmmm, the Devils are the good guys because they are messing with the demons........)

What the book made clear to me

1. The people of the CS are not all evil.
2. The leadership of the CS is (guess who sets the goals)
3. The agenda most of the military and citizens fallow is a evil agenda. (they may not know they are helping an evil cause, but then the road to hell is paved with good intentions.)

To me that makes it clear that although the people of the CS are not evil (some are even heroes.) the nation polices/agendas what it does are evil.

Tor wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:pg 46 of word book 11 where they say the cs cause is evil.

"As loyal believers in the human supremacist regime of Karl Prosek, these soldiers are, without a doubt, misguided individuals unwittingly serving an evil cause.

This does not call the cause of the Coalition States evil. It does not call human supremacy evil. It does not call the cause of any Prosek evil. It calls Karl's regime (or at least some aspect of it, an unidentified 'cause') evil. Which I'm totally okay with, since he's Diabolic and all that.

The regime of Alistair Dunscon (and I would also argue, the regime of Nostrous Dunscon, perhaps to a lesser degree) can easily be called evil. That doesn't make the Federation of Magic evil or the bad guy. Having evil leaders doesn't make your entire nation worth summarizing as evil.

Zer0 Kay wrote:The U.S. and any other constitutional type government is normally ran by laws and not at some ones whim.

The Coalition States also has laws, and law-based nations like the US still have ruler whims affect their policies, or are we forgetting presidential vetoes or filibusters?

Zer0 Kay wrote:in the U.S. a president may be evil there are means to take care of things IF those means choose to work properly.

Who says there's no means for that in the Coalition States as well? Just because Karl is "emperor for life" doesn't mean he can't be replaced as Chairman if people desire an election. It is possible to maintain a monarch while limiting their power to affect the nation. Look at what Britain/Japan did.

Zer0 Kay wrote:a nation where the tyrants word IS the law

Are we possibly overestimating Karl's power here?

If Karl suddenly said "all the women of the CS must bear my children", you think everyone's just going to be okay with that? There'd be absolutely no measures in place to respond to that?

Zer0 Kay wrote:A true democracy or total Anarchy would be based on the alignment of it's people and a republic would be based on the alignment of its representatives.

Not true at all. People don't necessarily vote for candidates with the same alignment, even if the candidate is being candid about their views. Selfish people might vote for someone good, to do better than they are capable of or willing to. They may not want to personally sacrifice but see the value in society doing altruiistic things. Similarly, selfish people can vote for someone evil, willing to make brutal choices they know are necessarily but can't bring themselves to personally take part in.

Blue Lion wrote:You write he is adding allot of misdirect words in that are not part of the original text.

I said "Also included in parenthesis are questions I believe are raised by the wording" so I don't see how that is misdirection.

Blue Lion wrote:focusing heavily on the Xit to exclude any other possible consideration he can.

Wrong, I also mentioned the Slurmph. Since they weren't introduced until WB 30 I don't think WB 11 was referring to them though. The Xiticix, on the other hand, have been around since RMB, and WB11 mentions on page 24 that they "will be dealt with". Seems pretty clear that the CS are always genocidal against the Xiticix but just haven't encountered them as much.

I remember something regarding Tolkeen but couldn't find it in the thread so am hoping someone could bring that up again.

Blue Lion wrote:The CS as a whole is never painted in text as good guys

No, just Heroes.

Course you don't need to be painted as a good guy, just not painted as a bad guy.

What nation as a whole IS painted in text as good guys though? Like do you need them to be explicitly called 'good guys' or something? What counter-example and wording are we looking at? If I know what word is good-guy-ifying something like Lazlo/Psyscape then I can know what word to look for in association with the CS.

Blue Lion wrote:I have proven without a doubt that the CS goals are evil

Karl's goals are not the States' goals, they are bigger than him. The States are literally what the message is, not behind the scenes corruption.

Blue Lion wrote:the CS as a whole can be considered a force of evil. serving the intrest of its diabolic evil emperor.

A ruler having evil interests that are served does not make the nation as a whole more evil than good. Leader corruption happens all the time in stuff which is still a net good force.

No we aren't over stating Karls power. The "laws" can be changed at his whim, making them dictates rather than laws and IF the people D have that power to depose Prosek and don't then the people are indeed evil. No that doesn't flow the other way that the already stated people of the CS not being primarily evil per the canon, not choosing to depose prosek makes him good. Rather a good people choosing not to exercise their power to depose a despot is instead cowardly.
So there is one of three options
1. Prosek does hold all the power and as such makes the nation evil.
2. Prosek does not have all the power and the people choose not to depose him cuz those with the power to do so are evil therefore making the nation evil.
3. Prosek does not have all the power and the good people of the nation do nothing out of fear allowing the nation to be evil.

Just a few random comments

One. old Karl still have to deal with the civilian politicians of the CS. So to say Karl has ultimate power is a joke, he is a student of history, and he knows what happens when a leader goes to for. So he keeps the masses happy with him in power.

Two. nazis were a power hungry Germany who had occultist views of some mystic master race.
Yeah that sounds about right about for the coalition lol.

Three. We view the CS with today's moral value, add in demons , nonhuman invaders , alien plagues, magic and the rest of that craziness, and all that moral value goes out the window if not you end up something's next meal or its "pet"

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Three. We view the CS with today's moral value, add in demons , nonhuman invaders , alien plagues, magic and the rest of that craziness, and all that moral value goes out the window if not you end up something's next meal or its "pet"

does it really? because last i checked, the NGR is explicitly surrounded by (sub)demons and nonhuman invaders (many of which have access to at least some form of magic) to a much greater extent than the CS, but have managed to get by without indiscriminately murdering large numbers of innocent d-bees, without suppressing knowledge, without altering history, without declaring war on nations that value things which they don't but do not pose a threat, and without straight-up outlawing other manufacturers of products that are pretty much essential to survival on rifts earth, but they seem to have managed to get by just fine without turning into anything's meal or pet.

they may not be a shining beacon of morality and the kind treatment of d-bees, but they haven't gone remotely as far as the CS, and their enemy is explicitly stated to be a more dangerous one than anything the CS faces. they haven't embraced magic, they haven't even embraced psionics, they haven't genetically engineered any slave races to use as expendable troops or to help them purge their territory of magic users, and yet, there they are, not dead, not eaten, not enslaved.

Shark_Force wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Three. We view the CS with today's moral value, add in demons , nonhuman invaders , alien plagues, magic and the rest of that craziness, and all that moral value goes out the window if not you end up something's next meal or its "pet"

does it really? because last i checked, the NGR is explicitly surrounded by (sub)demons and nonhuman invaders (many of which have access to at least some form of magic) to a much greater extent than the CS, but have managed to get by without indiscriminately murdering large numbers of innocent d-bees, without suppressing knowledge, without altering history, without declaring war on nations that value things which they don't but do not pose a threat, and without straight-up outlawing other manufacturers of products that are pretty much essential to survival on rifts earth, but they seem to have managed to get by just fine without turning into anything's meal or pet.

they may not be a shining beacon of morality and the kind treatment of d-bees, but they haven't gone remotely as far as the CS, and their enemy is explicitly stated to be a more dangerous one than anything the CS faces. they haven't embraced magic, they haven't even embraced psionics, they haven't genetically engineered any slave races to use as expendable troops or to help them purge their territory of magic users, and yet, there they are, not dead, not eaten, not enslaved.

That because palladium books doesn't what to offend anyone, hence why you will never see a rifts Middle East book or we would have one , ever notice every other human nation seems just a little too nice to d-bees compared to CS , heck humans can't get along with each other half the time , but we are to believe after a earth shattering event , other humans are nice to the d-bees when they haven't a history of being nice to each other.
The good old ngr, last time I check they needed others in their war, including the CS for manpower and supplies. Yup upstanding moral folks there.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Three. We view the CS with today's moral value, add in demons , nonhuman invaders , alien plagues, magic and the rest of that craziness, and all that moral value goes out the window if not you end up something's next meal or its "pet"

does it really? because last i checked, the NGR is explicitly surrounded by (sub)demons and nonhuman invaders (many of which have access to at least some form of magic) to a much greater extent than the CS, but have managed to get by without indiscriminately murdering large numbers of innocent d-bees, without suppressing knowledge, without altering history, without declaring war on nations that value things which they don't but do not pose a threat, and without straight-up outlawing other manufacturers of products that are pretty much essential to survival on rifts earth, but they seem to have managed to get by just fine without turning into anything's meal or pet.

they may not be a shining beacon of morality and the kind treatment of d-bees, but they haven't gone remotely as far as the CS, and their enemy is explicitly stated to be a more dangerous one than anything the CS faces. they haven't embraced magic, they haven't even embraced psionics, they haven't genetically engineered any slave races to use as expendable troops or to help them purge their territory of magic users, and yet, there they are, not dead, not eaten, not enslaved.

That because palladium books doesn't what to offend anyone, hence why you will never see a rifts Middle East book or we would have one , ever notice every other human nation seems just a little too nice to d-bees compared to CS , heck humans can't get along with each other half the time , but we are to believe after a earth shattering event , other humans are nice to the d-bees when they haven't a history of being nice to each other.
The good old ngr, last time I check they needed others in their war, including the CS for manpower and supplies. Yup upstanding moral folks there.

I really don't get your argument here.....
I think that your saying that somehow only the CS is really an accurate representation of humanity? That everyone else is artificially sweetened?
No one is saying the NGR is a bastion of sweetness and light. Its a great place......if your a pure-breed human. But its not a xenophobic place of genocide, slavery, and wholesale revisionism of history. (Japan is even nicer ) The simple fact that they can survive with out doing this proves empirically that such is not needed.
Complaining that there is no middle east book proves nothing.....Palladium is quite willing to offend people (Have you read Spirit West, or Australia?) They have all sorts of evil people and nasty nations. They would be fine with making everyone evil....if that was needed. It isn't needed though, so they don't do that. They only make the bad guys evil......

eliakon wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Three. We view the CS with today's moral value, add in demons , nonhuman invaders , alien plagues, magic and the rest of that craziness, and all that moral value goes out the window if not you end up something's next meal or its "pet"

does it really? because last i checked, the NGR is explicitly surrounded by (sub)demons and nonhuman invaders (many of which have access to at least some form of magic) to a much greater extent than the CS, but have managed to get by without indiscriminately murdering large numbers of innocent d-bees, without suppressing knowledge, without altering history, without declaring war on nations that value things which they don't but do not pose a threat, and without straight-up outlawing other manufacturers of products that are pretty much essential to survival on rifts earth, but they seem to have managed to get by just fine without turning into anything's meal or pet.

they may not be a shining beacon of morality and the kind treatment of d-bees, but they haven't gone remotely as far as the CS, and their enemy is explicitly stated to be a more dangerous one than anything the CS faces. they haven't embraced magic, they haven't even embraced psionics, they haven't genetically engineered any slave races to use as expendable troops or to help them purge their territory of magic users, and yet, there they are, not dead, not eaten, not enslaved.

That because palladium books doesn't what to offend anyone, hence why you will never see a rifts Middle East book or we would have one , ever notice every other human nation seems just a little too nice to d-bees compared to CS , heck humans can't get along with each other half the time , but we are to believe after a earth shattering event , other humans are nice to the d-bees when they haven't a history of being nice to each other.
The good old ngr, last time I check they needed others in their war, including the CS for manpower and supplies. Yup upstanding moral folks there.

I really don't get your argument here.....
I think that your saying that somehow only the CS is really an accurate representation of humanity? That everyone else is artificially sweetened?
No one is saying the NGR is a bastion of sweetness and light. Its a great place......if your a pure-breed human. But its not a xenophobic place of genocide, slavery, and wholesale revisionism of history. (Japan is even nicer ) The simple fact that they can survive with out doing this proves empirically that such is not needed.
Complaining that there is no middle east book proves nothing.....Palladium is quite willing to offend people (Have you read Spirit West, or Australia?) They have all sorts of evil people and nasty nations. They would be fine with making everyone evil....if that was needed. It isn't needed though, so they don't do that. They only make the bad guys evil......

Name one evil human nation other then CS or FQ.

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:which they also aren't doing when they prevent their citizens from gaining knowledge that can improve their lives, just so that the leadership can keep control of them more easily.

furthermore, if that was their goal, they wouldn't have spent 20 years threatening tolkeen and then invaded when tolkeen was not doing anything to provoke them. they would have instead spent those military resources attacking something that was actually a threat.

I'm not commenting on the merits of either argument or on whether or not the CS is using a sub-optimal strategy to achieve their goals, I'm merely explaining why there are two sides to this debate.

--flatline

I don't know if there really is two sides honestly.
The argument for the CS seems to revolve around "Well if we take the CS propaganda as a valid analysis of what is good and evil, then the CS is the good guys" That sort of requires defining away evil.......

The argument for the CS leadership being Good might be roughly like that, but the argument for the CS population being overall Good is that the books (iirc) mention that the population is mostly a mix of Good and Selfish alignments.

I am not talking about the people.
A good analogy here....the highly similar Nazis
The Nazi leaders were evil
The Nazi government was evil
Germans had the normal distribution of good and evil.
When one says "the Nazis were evil" one generally does not reply with "No the Nazis were good, I mean after all the average citizen of Hamburg loved kittens" Just because the individual Germans were good, doesn't make 'The Nazis' good.

What?! Because most of the German people are good that makes Hitler good. :ng:
Careful kittens may be equated with evil
I like how Tor for some reason thinks that the C.S. has political parties, as if the Emperor is voted in or "allowed" to rule. He doesn't realize it is a Monarchy and not like the modern figurehead monarchies of England or Japan. The only method of change would be a rebellion and whether it is super violent like the American revolution or relatively less bloody like SOME of the magna carta adoptions by various monarchs in exchange for taxes. There is no voting him out, there is no lords ousting him, because any sign of rebellion is sure to meet a swift demise because the instigator(s) were influenced by magic or some inhuman power.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Three. We view the CS with today's moral value, add in demons , nonhuman invaders , alien plagues, magic and the rest of that craziness, and all that moral value goes out the window if not you end up something's next meal or its "pet"

does it really? because last i checked, the NGR is explicitly surrounded by (sub)demons and nonhuman invaders (many of which have access to at least some form of magic) to a much greater extent than the CS, but have managed to get by without indiscriminately murdering large numbers of innocent d-bees, without suppressing knowledge, without altering history, without declaring war on nations that value things which they don't but do not pose a threat, and without straight-up outlawing other manufacturers of products that are pretty much essential to survival on rifts earth, but they seem to have managed to get by just fine without turning into anything's meal or pet.

they may not be a shining beacon of morality and the kind treatment of d-bees, but they haven't gone remotely as far as the CS, and their enemy is explicitly stated to be a more dangerous one than anything the CS faces. they haven't embraced magic, they haven't even embraced psionics, they haven't genetically engineered any slave races to use as expendable troops or to help them purge their territory of magic users, and yet, there they are, not dead, not eaten, not enslaved.

That because palladium books doesn't what to offend anyone, hence why you will never see a rifts Middle East book or we would have one , ever notice every other human nation seems just a little too nice to d-bees compared to CS , heck humans can't get along with each other half the time , but we are to believe after a earth shattering event , other humans are nice to the d-bees when they haven't a history of being nice to each other.
The good old ngr, last time I check they needed others in their war, including the CS for manpower and supplies. Yup upstanding moral folks there.

I really don't get your argument here.....
I think that your saying that somehow only the CS is really an accurate representation of humanity? That everyone else is artificially sweetened?
No one is saying the NGR is a bastion of sweetness and light. Its a great place......if your a pure-breed human. But its not a xenophobic place of genocide, slavery, and wholesale revisionism of history. (Japan is even nicer ) The simple fact that they can survive with out doing this proves empirically that such is not needed.
Complaining that there is no middle east book proves nothing.....Palladium is quite willing to offend people (Have you read Spirit West, or Australia?) They have all sorts of evil people and nasty nations. They would be fine with making everyone evil....if that was needed. It isn't needed though, so they don't do that. They only make the bad guys evil......

Name one evil human nation other then CS or FQ.

The Polish one with the evil ruler who hides his evilness by not implementing evil policies. There is an example of a good kingdom ruled by an evil man.