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Samored II wrote:I would suggest you read pages 22, 23, 61, 84, and 85 of Mutants in Orbit.

none of those pages deal with the location or size of the Debris field.

It states the Orbitals never approach closer than 19,000 miles due to radiation and the threat of the containment barrier.

It does not state that, it states that the mutants in orbit orbitals avoid it, the Rifts orbitals have much greater protections against these things. It should also be pointed out that in modern times we have ways of dealing with the radiation belts and have major satellites in that belt (Hubble being the most famous)

glitterboy2098 wrote:the density of the field has never been printed, nor how far up the field extends.

However, the debris field begins approx. 150 miles above the surface and in maintained by dumping material down the gravity well from higher orbits. Therefore it is logical the Orbits based their minimum safe travel distance on the point where the density of the field became unreasonably hazardous.

The density I presented was an estimate, given the likely wide variations withing the local density of any given section of the field. Some sections would, precourse, be higher, some lower.

rat_bastard wrote:

Samored II wrote:I would suggest you read pages 22, 23, 61, 84, and 85 of Mutants in Orbit.

none of those pages deal with the location or size of the Debris field.

Each of those pages provides some vital component of information regarding the field or the containment barrier.

It states the Orbitals never approach closer than 19,000 miles due to radiation and the threat of the containment barrier.

It does not state that, it states that the mutants in orbit orbitals avoid it,

Wrong.

Samored II wrote:

It does not state that, it states that the mutants in orbit orbitals avoid it,

Wrong.

Mutants in orbit page 23 wrote:Most Inhabitants of orbit do not descend any lower than 19,000 miles above earth (aprox. 30,000 km).

Where does that say all travelers avoid it?

Nowhere.

Never mind that that is a Mutant in orbit section of the book, and that the Rifts inhabitants of orbit have much better radiation resistance technologies.

Samored II wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

Samored II wrote:Correct. The field is 19,000 miles thick and at a debris density of 1mg/cu-m an object would take 1800 MDC damage per minute exposure. That cargo container had better have a couple billion MDC to survive.

Where on earth did you get the idea that it would take 1800 MDC per minute at 1mg/m^3?

/Sub

It is an estimation based on the density of the debris field and the relative velocity of the impacts a craft would suffer while crossing it. Derived from the impact damage rules iirc 1mdc /20 mph over 50mph and an orbital closing velocity of 10 miles/sec.

So you completely pulled it out of your hat.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

Samored II wrote:Correct. The field is 19,000 miles thick and at a debris density of 1mg/cu-m an object would take 1800 MDC damage per minute exposure. That cargo container had better have a couple billion MDC to survive.

Where on earth did you get the idea that it would take 1800 MDC per minute at 1mg/m^3?

/Sub

It is an estimation based on the density of the debris field and the relative velocity of the impacts a craft would suffer while crossing it. Derived from the impact damage rules iirc 1mdc /20 mph over 50mph and an orbital closing velocity of 10 miles/sec.

So you completely pulled it out of your hat.

/Sub

basically.

rat_bastard wrote:

Samored II wrote:

It does not state that, it states that the mutants in orbit orbitals avoid it,

Wrong.

Mutants in orbit page 23 wrote:Most Inhabitants of orbit do not descend any lower than 19,000 miles above earth (aprox. 30,000 km).

Where does that say all travelers avoid it?

Nowhere.

Never mind that that is a Mutant in orbit section of the book, and that the Rifts inhabitants of orbit have much better radiation resistance technologies.

I suggest you read the relevant passages again. Or for the first time.
You might also then peruse the portion of the book where the Mutants in Orbit sections are made appliciable to the Rifts portions.

Subjugator wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

Samored II wrote:Correct. The field is 19,000 miles thick and at a debris density of 1mg/cu-m an object would take 1800 MDC damage per minute exposure. That cargo container had better have a couple billion MDC to survive.

Where on earth did you get the idea that it would take 1800 MDC per minute at 1mg/m^3?

/Sub

It is an estimation based on the density of the debris field and the relative velocity of the impacts a craft would suffer while crossing it. Derived from the impact damage rules iirc 1mdc /20 mph over 50mph and an orbital closing velocity of 10 miles/sec.

So you completely pulled it out of your hat.

/Sub

I would certainly entertain an alternate calculation(s). Provided same were based on canon material rather than fanfic, what happened in a personal game, or Wikipedia.

I await your response. In order to satisfy Rat_Bastard. page numbers are de regure.

Samored II wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:

Samored II wrote:

It does not state that, it states that the mutants in orbit orbitals avoid it,

Wrong.

Mutants in orbit page 23 wrote:Most Inhabitants of orbit do not descend any lower than 19,000 miles above earth (aprox. 30,000 km).

Where does that say all travelers avoid it?

Nowhere.

Never mind that that is a Mutant in orbit section of the book, and that the Rifts inhabitants of orbit have much better radiation resistance technologies.

I suggest you read the relevant passages again. Or for the first time.
You might also then peruse the portion of the book where the Mutants in Orbit sections are made appliciable to the Rifts portions.

I read it, it does not deal in absolutes, you are, it does not list the details you claim it does, it list things that are hazards for a near modern society that are not a hazard for people with standard body armor in rifts. Basically you are making things up, being rude and basically being as obtuse as possible.

Samored II wrote:I would certainly entertain an alternate calculation(s). Provided same were based on canon material rather than fanfic, what happened in a personal game, or Wikipedia.

I await your response. In order to satisfy Rat_Bastard. page numbers are de regure.

At this point, ANY number given is going to be out of someone's hat. That's the point.

While I am the most likely to have a correct and canonical answer available to me, that's not going to happen (though my answer would not require page numbers at least).

/Sub

And in case anyone is wondering how a super-genius businessman like Splynncryth would handle such a situation. Through proxies.

Somewhere in the Three Galaxies the booking agent of a mercenary group gets a hold of information regarding a near-priceless bit of Unobtanium currently hidden in the core of an asteroid headed for a collision with an insignificant little planet in the Orion Arm of the Milky Way. The group then wastes their resouces in capturing and cutting apart a valueless rock. Cost: one minion at most.

Samored II wrote:I would suggest you read pages 22, 23, 61, 84, and 85 of Mutants in Orbit.

Let's take a look, shall we?

Page 22: Mostly about orbits, which more or less synchs with what was said on Wikipedia.

Page 23: First paragraph. "Very little remains in low orbit. ... The danger is not just falling victim to Earth's gravitational pull, but activity at that level might attract the attention of military SDI satellites that are still active and programmed to destroy intruders."

Let's look at those satellites, shall we? Now, they talk about a variety of types (communications, Navigation, sensor, surveilance, and defense satellites) on pages 84 and 85, but the interesting bit is that some (as noted about old surveillance satellites) follow an elliptical orbit... which means they traverse several layers of orbital "shells". We see from communications satellites that these come as close as 281 miles to Earth, and as far as 25,000 miles. Furthermore, we know that communications and sensor station satellites... including modern ones... operate in an area between 375-940 miles up.

This area... from a minimum of 281 miles, out to 25,000 miles, MUST be relatively free of debris, and certainly cannot contain the ship-shredders you talk about, or satellites would have an average life of 2 melees. It must also be relatively free SDI satellites... not nearly as free, since the SDIs can FoF things, but relatively so, especially the older ones. On the other hand, the SDIs with the absolute best range are old X-ray lasers. They can manage about 11.5 miles, and cannot be recharged after their 10 shots are up. Modern ones, that do recharge, do about 18,000', or a bit over 3 miles.

Now, going back to page 23, we see that most orbitals are in lunar orbit... around 250,000 miles, but they will go as close as 19,000 miles. Again, the Ring o' Death cannot be between 250,000 and 19,000 miles, or it would shred the ships of the orbitals.

Where does this leave us? The minimum orbital distance is 150 miles... any lower and you start to get atmospheric drag (page 22). The lowest orbit I can find is 281 miles. Things that go as low as 281 miles go as high as 25,000 miles, which is above the "closest approach" of the orbital communities, meaning the entire area between 281 and the moon must be free of "ship shredders", having only SDIs... which max out at 12 miles of range. The ship-shredders must be between 150 and 280 miles from Earth... anywhere else and the setting, as written does not work. However, there are also SDI satellites down around the 150 mark (per page 23), meaning it can't be a solid barrier 130 miles wide.

Since Splynncrth (or other summoners) can teleport things up to the 3600 mile mark... beyond where we know the ship-shredders MUST end for the setting as written to be feasible... they can get into space. At that point, their worry is satellites. However, a long range missile has a range of 400 miles; if we apply the "double in space" rule from the mini-missile launcher satellite (page 87) to long range missiles, this gives a range of 800-3600 miles for long-range missile platforms... 327 times what the best weapons can manage on the kill satellites. And the Kittani have the ability to create autonomous kill-bots of their own, and are a spacefaring race with other planets to test platforms on, so they can easily create such weapons. If you want to limit them to what's written, fine... they get a Dragon Dreadnought, whose lasers have a 2 mile range in atmosphere; triple in space is normal for energy according to MiO, giving them a 6 mile range with guns... and Dreadnoughts carry 16 long-range missiles, plus 8 medium range missiles.

So, they teleport up a Dragon Dreadnought, which eats all of the satellites in the area (since the satellites cannot do enough damage, fast enough, to destroy the Dreadnought... in theory, if it teleport in the midst of 3 Old Xray lasers, it could be destroyed in a single volley... however, there are only a dozen or so left, per page 86). Another Dreadnought comes up. And another. And another. Soon, local space is filled with satellite-eating Dreadnoughts. Sure, they're stuck in space, but supplies can be teleported up and retrieved until the ship shedders can be cleared.

Oooh, the ship shredders. Bar to any technological power getting into space. So, for right now, Splynncrth likes them. What happens when he decides he doesn't? That's why he has Warlocks. See, Warlocks can create large walls of clay, stone, ice, metal. They can create these in pressurized holds, suit up, and drop them toward's Earth... with a bit of a shove to make sure they are headed DOWN. Sure, they get ripped to shreds or disappear at the end of their duration... but they also impart their downward momentum on things, clearing swaths through the debris. For real fun, you can use River of Lava... 210'*35'*35' at its smallest dimensions (cast by a 7th level Earth Warlock), it will destroy small chunks, move things down, and disappear in a few minutes. Or you can create a few iron golems (which cannot be completely destroyed), use Electromagnetism on them, and shove them out an airlock with instructions to "clean up". Give them a contragrav pack and they can stay up there indefinitely. It will take a massive amount of time to do it this way, but since no one will be maintaining the debris field, it will also suffer natural decay.

If Splynncrth wants up, he gets up. If he wants space, he gets space. There is nothing up there that can stop him.

Page 22 says nothing at all about the retrograde debris ring orbitting the earth. It discusses orbits to a small degree.

Page 23 says,

Most inhabitants of Earth orbit do not descend any lower than 19,000 miles above the Earth (approx. 30,000 km). This is mainly because of the threat posed by the two Van Allen radiation belt, which encircle the Earth at heights of between 1250 and 12,500 miles (2,000 km to 20,000 km).

It then goes on to describe what the naturally occuring radiation belts are composed of along with effects on electronics. That half of the page carries on the discussion of orbits and the other half of that page discusses the orbital space stations.

There is no mention of the debris field becuase it doesn't exist for the After the Bomb Mutants. There are adventure ideas in the back of the book describing how the orbital community and residents of earth can directly interact because there is nothing aside from a lack of technology stopping the interaction. One of those adventures details the planned shuttle launch by the Empire of humanity.

Furthermore, to use this figure of 19,000 miles to describe the thickness of the belt (which it is not) would mean that it starts on the surface of the planet.

Page 61 actually does describe the containment of Rifts Earth by the orbitals. It mentions the counter-orbit debris ring, that it is constantly maintained and that 90% of anything that enters it is destroyed. It does not detail it's orbital height. It does not detail damage. It does not detail density nor even type of debris used. Actually, only two sentances are used to describe it.

To achieve this, the counter-orbit debris ring is constantly maintained. 90 percent of anything that enters the area of affect is destroyed.

So we know that the debris is in a retrograde orbit. We know that it forms a ring around the earth. We know that it is constantly maintained. We know 90% of anything that enters it is destroyed. That is all we know. Samored II's conclusions are not supported here.

Page 84 actually has proof against Samored II's supposition. It is detailing the orbits of communications satellites between 281 and 25,000 miles. It goes on to give the weights of these satellites. Then on the very next page it tells us the value in IOU's of the satellites. Because that is part of the adventure in Mutants in Orbit, salvaging old satellites.

Page 85 continues giving us orbits of salvagable satellites, including defense satellites. All of them have orbits that can be potentially well below the 19,000 mile area.

Samored II, your statistics and figures as you've presented them are not in the book. That makes them based either on fanfic or your own personal game. They are not canon. They are not the authors words nor intent. Not only are they not canon, they're ridiculously inaccurate as can be shown with numerous sources, including Wikipedia.

So, if I'm following Mark Hall's math correctly, the debris field is a few hundred miles thick, max? My TW plan would totally work then. Good.

Talavar wrote:So, if I'm following Mark Hall's math correctly, the debris field is a few hundred miles thick, max? My TW plan would totally work then. Good.

It totally could.

Cybermancer wrote:

Talavar wrote:So, if I'm following Mark Hall's math correctly, the debris field is a few hundred miles thick, max? My TW plan would totally work then. Good.

It totally could.

Not only that, but 10% of what goes through the debris field is intact. Push a Cosmo Knight through there, he'll ignore all but the X-Ray Lasers, which will do almost nothing to him, and he'll be on his way.

/Sub

Not only that, but 10% of what goes through the debris field is intact. Push a Cosmo Knight through there, he'll ignore all but the X-Ray Lasers, which will do almost nothing to him, and he'll be on his way.

If your going to toss in a Cosmo-knight why not just throw in a God? I'm sure Thor could easily make it through the field.

Sorry, I got to point out something here: First of all, I doubt that the orbital debris would do MDC. Why? Because today there's an actual debris field up there and it doesn't do MDC, if it did, the space shuttle and ISS as well as a lot of the LEO sats would be destroyed. I'll even use an example: A piece of drbris about the size of 1 mm hit the suttle windsheild and left a crater identicle to one that coud be created by a 9mm bullet. I think that things get destroyed in the field because flying through it would be like stepping into the path of a Sand blaster in that it would wear stuff down. Thus, it more likely causes hundreds of SDC per minute instead of MDC depending on the thickness. I think that this, plus the Killer Sats is why no one can get up there.

Cause today its debris is made up of SDC materials, SDC can only do SDC. A hunk of SDC scrap going 20K MPH is still going to do SDC.



I think some people are taking a bit too much of the GM only info for their players. Its 300 years after a worl wide apocolypse, there hasn't been an education system for a very long time, I'm sure 90% of the worlds population now believe that the universe and the sun revolves around the earth

And while the books may say, or imply somethings, it is horribly outdatted. An entire debris feild would be the most effective, a ring on the other hand won't do much to any place mthats out of that area that it effects.

Esckey wrote:

Not only that, but 10% of what goes through the debris field is intact. Push a Cosmo Knight through there, he'll ignore all but the X-Ray Lasers, which will do almost nothing to him, and he'll be on his way.

If your going to toss in a Cosmo-knight why not just throw in a God? I'm sure Thor could easily make it through the field.

Sorry, I got to point out something here: First of all, I doubt that the orbital debris would do MDC. Why? Because today there's an actual debris field up there and it doesn't do MDC, if it did, the space shuttle and ISS as well as a lot of the LEO sats would be destroyed. I'll even use an example: A piece of drbris about the size of 1 mm hit the suttle windsheild and left a crater identicle to one that coud be created by a 9mm bullet. I think that things get destroyed in the field because flying through it would be like stepping into the path of a Sand blaster in that it would wear stuff down. Thus, it more likely causes hundreds of SDC per minute instead of MDC depending on the thickness. I think that this, plus the Killer Sats is why no one can get up there.

Cause today its debris is made up of SDC materials, SDC can only do SDC. A hunk of SDC scrap going 20K MPH is still going to do SDC.



I think some people are taking a bit too much of the GM only info for their players. Its 300 years after a worl wide apocolypse, there hasn't been an education system for a very long time, I'm sure 90% of the worlds population now believe that the universe and the sun revolves around the earth

And while the books may say, or imply somethings, it is horribly outdatted. An entire debris feild would be the most effective, a ring on the other hand won't do much to any place mthats out of that area that it effects.

admirable thoughts, but not actually true.

Esckey wrote:If your going to toss in a Cosmo-knight why not just throw in a God? I'm sure Thor could easily make it through the field.

Fine - a TW with impervious to energy on his armor.

Cause today its debris is made up of SDC materials, SDC can only do SDC. A hunk of SDC scrap going 20K MPH is still going to do SDC.

Perhaps, but if each piece does more than 100 SDC in a single strike, then it becomes MDC.

/Sub

Mark Hall wrote:
Let's look at those satellites, shall we? Now, they talk about a variety of types (communications, Navigation, sensor, surveilance, and defense satellites) on pages 84 and 85, but the interesting bit is that some (as noted about old surveillance satellites) follow an elliptical orbit... which means they traverse several layers of orbital "shells". We see from communications satellites that these come as close as 281 miles to Earth, and as far as 25,000 miles. Furthermore, we know that communications and sensor station satellites... including modern ones... operate in an area between 375-940 miles up.

This area... from a minimum of 281 miles, out to 25,000 miles, MUST be relatively free of debris, and certainly cannot contain the ship-shredders you talk about, or satellites would have an average life of 2 melees. It must also be relatively free SDI satellites... not nearly as free, since the SDIs can FoF things, but relatively so, especially the older ones. On the other hand, the SDIs with the absolute best range are old X-ray lasers. They can manage about 11.5 miles, and cannot be recharged after their 10 shots are up. Modern ones, that do recharge, do about 18,000', or a bit over 3 miles.

Now, going back to page 23, we see that most orbitals are in lunar orbit... around 250,000 miles, but they will go as close as 19,000 miles. Again, the Ring o' Death cannot be between 250,000 and 19,000 miles, or it would shred the ships of the orbitals.

Where does this leave us? The minimum orbital distance is 150 miles... any lower and you start to get atmospheric drag (page 22). The lowest orbit I can find is 281 miles. Things that go as low as 281 miles go as high as 25,000 miles, which is above the "closest approach" of the orbital communities, meaning the entire area between 281 and the moon must be free of "ship shredders", having only SDIs... which max out at 12 miles of range. The ship-shredders must be between 150 and 280 miles from Earth... anywhere else and the setting, as written does not work. However, there are also SDI satellites down around the 150 mark (per page 23), meaning it can't be a solid barrier 130 miles wide.

That's where you are wrong. The Orbital community actively maintains the containment barrier, the situation you describe works for a static barrier not an actively maintained one. Part of that active maintenence would be replenishment of the debris field. As the orbits of its individual components decay, they fall into the atmosphere and burn up. Since the debris field is there after 300 years, someone (the Orbitals) must be dumping new debris down the gravity well into orbit. The process does NOT involve teleportation. Since the Orbitals don't approach closer than 19,000 miles, it doesn't involve percision launched debris loads either. How then, for the setting to work, does the debris get down to lower orbits? Perhaps it falls from higher orbits? Meaning your estimate of the debris field only existing between 280 and 150 miles cannot be true. That orbital band might very likely represent the section of the field with maximum density of debris, but maximum density in one band does not imply no density in other bands and since the debris has to fall from higher orbits, in order for the setting to work, your calculations have to be wrong.

What about the satellites you ask? How do they survive in such a hostile environment? Quite simple; the debris field does damage based on differences in relative velocity. In each orbital path there are objects moving at different relative speeds. Collisions between these objects cause damage. The damage is directally related to the difference in relative speed. As was pointed out earlier, impacts that do less than 100 SDC per strike cannot damage MDC structures. For the satellite that does get ripped apart by a highspeed impact, that why there's a maintainence program that takes the combined efforts of all Orbital colonies except Outcast Station, Bad things happen.

Since Splynncrth (or other summoners) can teleport things up to the 3600 mile mark... beyond where we know the ship-shredders MUST end for the setting as written to be feasible... they can get into space.

Not so. As shown above, the debris field may very well be less dense at 3600 miles, but even 1mg/cu-m is enough to demolish a spacecraft.

At that point, their worry is satellites. However, a long range missile has a range of 400 miles; if we apply the "double in space" rule from the mini-missile launcher satellite (page 87) to long range missiles, this gives a range of 800-3600 miles for long-range missile platforms... 327 times what the best weapons can manage on the kill satellites. And the Kittani have the ability to create autonomous kill-bots of their own, and are a spacefaring race with other planets to test platforms on, so they can easily create such weapons. If you want to limit them to what's written, fine... they get a Dragon Dreadnought, whose lasers have a 2 mile range in atmosphere; triple in space is normal for energy according to MiO, giving them a 6 mile range with guns... and Dreadnoughts carry 16 long-range missiles, plus 8 medium range missiles.

So, they teleport up a Dragon Dreadnought, which eats all of the satellites in the area (since the satellites cannot do enough damage, fast enough, to destroy the Dreadnought... in theory, if it teleport in the midst of 3 Old Xray lasers, it could be destroyed in a single volley... however, there are only a dozen or so left, per page 86). Another Dreadnought comes up. And another. And another. Soon, local space is filled with satellite-eating Dreadnoughts.

Unfortunately 10 isn't a sufficient number of Dreadnoughts to "fill" local space of any volume. Since a 3600 mile orbit isn't sufficient to guarantee being out of the debris field and a rock the size of a golfball will cripple the Dreadnaught, this doesn't seem like a high percentage strategy.

Sure, they're stuck in space, but supplies can be teleported up and retrieved until the ship shedders can be cleared.

Better make it fast and be very sure the relative velocities match or the supply dump is liable to rip a hole in the ship.

Oooh, the ship shredders. Bar to any technological power getting into space. So, for right now, Splynncrth likes them. What happens when he decides he doesn't? That's why he has Warlocks. See, Warlocks can create large walls of clay, stone, ice, metal. They can create these in pressurized holds, suit up, and drop them toward's Earth... with a bit of a shove to make sure they are headed DOWN. Sure, they get ripped to shreds or disappear at the end of their duration... but they also impart their downward momentum on things, clearing swaths through the debris. For real fun, you can use River of Lava... 210'*35'*35' at its smallest dimensions (cast by a 7th level Earth Warlock), it will destroy small chunks, move things down, and disappear in a few minutes. Or you can create a few iron golems (which cannot be completely destroyed), use Electromagnetism on them, and shove them out an airlock with instructions to "clean up". Give them a contragrav pack and they can stay up there indefinitely. It will take a massive amount of time to do it this way, but since no one will be maintaining the debris field, it will also suffer natural decay.

Problem being, people ARE maintaining the debris field. And all that preassumes an ability to attain and maintain orbit to begin with. Something NO ONE has be able to do.

If Splynncrth wants up, he gets up. If he wants space, he gets space. There is nothing up there that can stop him.

Yet oddly enough, despite the presense of hostile forces with the ability to destroy Atlantis at any time; he hasn't "gotten up". One wonders if estimates of his ability are perchance, exaggerated?

Subjugator wrote:

Cybermancer wrote:

Talavar wrote:So, if I'm following Mark Hall's math correctly, the debris field is a few hundred miles thick, max? My TW plan would totally work then. Good.

It totally could.

Not only that, but 10% of what goes through the debris field is intact. Push a Cosmo Knight through there, he'll ignore all but the X-Ray Lasers, which will do almost nothing to him, and he'll be on his way.

/Sub

A Cosmo-Knight from South America, part of the Company of Heroes (I can't recall their exact name), tried that very thing. He's never been heard from again.

Esckey wrote:

Not only that, but 10% of what goes through the debris field is intact. Push a Cosmo Knight through there, he'll ignore all but the X-Ray Lasers, which will do almost nothing to him, and he'll be on his way.

If your going to toss in a Cosmo-knight why not just throw in a God? I'm sure Thor could easily make it through the field.

Sorry, I got to point out something here: First of all, I doubt that the orbital debris would do MDC. Why? Because today there's an actual debris field up there and it doesn't do MDC, if it did, the space shuttle and ISS as well as a lot of the LEO sats would be destroyed. I'll even use an example: A piece of drbris about the size of 1 mm hit the suttle windsheild and left a crater identicle to one that coud be created by a 9mm bullet. I think that things get destroyed in the field because flying through it would be like stepping into the path of a Sand blaster in that it would wear stuff down. Thus, it more likely causes hundreds of SDC per minute instead of MDC depending on the thickness. I think that this, plus the Killer Sats is why no one can get up there.

Cause today its debris is made up of SDC materials, SDC can only do SDC. A hunk of SDC scrap going 20K MPH is still going to do SDC.



I think some people are taking a bit too much of the GM only info for their players. Its 300 years after a worl wide apocolypse, there hasn't been an education system for a very long time, I'm sure 90% of the worlds population now believe that the universe and the sun revolves around the earth

And while the books may say, or imply somethings, it is horribly outdatted. An entire debris feild would be the most effective, a ring on the other hand won't do much to any place mthats out of that area that it effects.

As for Cosmo Knights and Gods, the question that started this was with regards to what Splyncryth would do. The Alien Intelligence. So indeed, why not toss in gods?

No one has been discussing what their players could do to get through the debris ring. As I've already mentioned, the discussion was around what Splyncryth could do. Although I suppose I am making the assumption that you don't allow him as a player character. still I wouldn't find it credible to think that he would beleive that the universe revolves around the earth.

The book really isn't any more outdated now than when it was published. And while a field might be more effective than a ring, it would also be far more resource intensive. Further we're discussing canon. So despite your feelings on the book being outdated or the effectiveness of the debris ring as detailed, this is how it exists in canon.

Samored II wrote: *SNIP* Since the Orbitals don't approach closer than 19,000 miles,*SNIP*

This is patently false. As has already been pointed out and directly quoted by myself, it says only that the After the Bomb orbitals AVOID going below this mark. Avoidance =/= don't ever approach.

Samored II wrote:What about the satellites you ask? How do they survive in such a hostile environment? Quite simple; the debris field does damage based on differences in relative velocity. In each orbital path there are objects moving at different relative speeds. Collisions between these objects cause damage. The damage is directally related to the difference in relative speed. As was pointed out earlier, impacts that do less than 100 SDC per strike cannot damage MDC structures. For the satellite that does get ripped apart by a highspeed impact, that why there's a maintainence program that takes the combined efforts of all Orbital colonies except Outcast Station, Bad things happen.

Wrong. It does damage because it is in a retrograde orbit. The term used in the book is counter-orbit debris ring. For this theory of yourse to work, then all satellites would have to be in a retrograde orbit. Since pre-cataclysm satellites are being salvaged and the vast majority of those were not in a retrograde orbit, this completely invalidates this theory. Which is what it is, as it is not canon.

Samored II wrote:

Since Splynncrth (or other summoners) can teleport things up to the 3600 mile mark... beyond where we know the ship-shredders MUST end for the setting as written to be feasible... they can get into space.

Not so. As shown above, the debris field may very well be less dense at 3600 miles, but even 1mg/cu-m is enough to demolish a spacecraft.

You have failed to show anything at all. The teleport theory still works.

Samored II wrote:

At that point, their worry is satellites. However, a long range missile has a range of 400 miles; if we apply the "double in space" rule from the mini-missile launcher satellite (page 87) to long range missiles, this gives a range of 800-3600 miles for long-range missile platforms... 327 times what the best weapons can manage on the kill satellites. And the Kittani have the ability to create autonomous kill-bots of their own, and are a spacefaring race with other planets to test platforms on, so they can easily create such weapons. If you want to limit them to what's written, fine... they get a Dragon Dreadnought, whose lasers have a 2 mile range in atmosphere; triple in space is normal for energy according to MiO, giving them a 6 mile range with guns... and Dreadnoughts carry 16 long-range missiles, plus 8 medium range missiles.

So, they teleport up a Dragon Dreadnought, which eats all of the satellites in the area (since the satellites cannot do enough damage, fast enough, to destroy the Dreadnought... in theory, if it teleport in the midst of 3 Old Xray lasers, it could be destroyed in a single volley... however, there are only a dozen or so left, per page 86). Another Dreadnought comes up. And another. And another. Soon, local space is filled with satellite-eating Dreadnoughts.

Unfortunately 10 isn't a sufficient number of Dreadnoughts to "fill" local space of any volume. Since a 3600 mile orbit isn't sufficient to guarantee being out of the debris field and a rock the size of a golfball will cripple the Dreadnaught, this doesn't seem like a high percentage strategy.

3600 miles is plenty of room to avoid the debris ring. Nor would a golf ball sized rock likely cripple a Dreadnaught, even if it was in the debris field.

Samored II wrote:

Sure, they're stuck in space, but supplies can be teleported up and retrieved until the ship shedders can be cleared.

Better make it fast and be very sure the relative velocities match or the supply dump is liable to rip a hole in the ship.

Not an issue since the supplies are being teleported up, past the debris ring.

Samored II wrote:

Oooh, the ship shredders. Bar to any technological power getting into space. So, for right now, Splynncrth likes them. What happens when he decides he doesn't? That's why he has Warlocks. See, Warlocks can create large walls of clay, stone, ice, metal. They can create these in pressurized holds, suit up, and drop them toward's Earth... with a bit of a shove to make sure they are headed DOWN. Sure, they get ripped to shreds or disappear at the end of their duration... but they also impart their downward momentum on things, clearing swaths through the debris. For real fun, you can use River of Lava... 210'*35'*35' at its smallest dimensions (cast by a 7th level Earth Warlock), it will destroy small chunks, move things down, and disappear in a few minutes. Or you can create a few iron golems (which cannot be completely destroyed), use Electromagnetism on them, and shove them out an airlock with instructions to "clean up". Give them a contragrav pack and they can stay up there indefinitely. It will take a massive amount of time to do it this way, but since no one will be maintaining the debris field, it will also suffer natural decay.

Problem being, people ARE maintaining the debris field. And all that preassumes an ability to attain and maintain orbit to begin with. Something NO ONE has be able to do.

Problem being, people would have to maintain it as fast as Splyncryth with the resources of three worlds and the tech know how of the Kittani trying to deplete it. In the game of logistics, the orbitals lose.

Samored II wrote:

If Splynncrth wants up, he gets up. If he wants space, he gets space. There is nothing up there that can stop him.

Yet oddly enough, despite the presense of hostile forces with the ability to destroy Atlantis at any time; he hasn't "gotten up". One wonders if estimates of his ability are perchance, exaggerated?

The orbitals have never shown any intent to destroy Atlantis. If they ever do, then you may see Splyncryth either roll out counter-orbit contingency plans or else shrug his tentacles and leave.

Samored II wrote:That's where you are wrong. The Orbital community actively maintains the containment barrier, the situation you describe works for a static barrier not an actively maintained one. Part of that active maintenence would be replenishment of the debris field. As the orbits of its individual components decay, they fall into the atmosphere and burn up. Since the debris field is there after 300 years, someone (the Orbitals) must be dumping new debris down the gravity well into orbit. The process does NOT involve teleportation. Since the Orbitals don't approach closer than 19,000 miles, it doesn't involve percision launched debris loads either. How then, for the setting to work, does the debris get down to lower orbits? Perhaps it falls from higher orbits? Meaning your estimate of the debris field only existing between 280 and 150 miles cannot be true. That orbital band might very likely represent the section of the field with maximum density of debris, but maximum density in one band does not imply no density in other bands and since the debris has to fall from higher orbits, in order for the setting to work, your calculations have to be wrong.

The retrograde orbit of the debris field is what causes the damage (and the relative velocity). Most pre-Rifts satellites would not be in a retrograde orbit, as that would pointlessly expensive. Pre-Rifts satellites still exist, and many operate in the 150 mile range (and, arguably, pose a hazard to navigation, even to the orbitals, given the text on page 22). While the debris field must be maintained, it cannot be as broad as you have painted or those pre-Rifts satellites could not pose a danger. Likewise, a retrograde orbit debris field above the 280 mile mark would shred most satellites, as a retrograde orbit is more energy-intensive, and therefore expensive. Furthermore, the debris field being above that point makes it hazardous to those who maintain the field... they are extremely limited in their maneuverability without being holed by debris.

Unfortunately 10 isn't a sufficient number of Dreadnoughts to "fill" local space of any volume. Since a 3600 mile orbit isn't sufficient to guarantee being out of the debris field and a rock the size of a golfball will cripple the Dreadnaught, this doesn't seem like a high percentage strategy.

Fill? No. Interdict, given their superior technology?

Better make it fast and be very sure the relative velocities match or the supply dump is liable to rip a hole in the ship.

Why dump it in the ship? That's unnecessary complication. Put it in a giant container with a beacon on it, dump it into space, and then have the Dreadnought pick it up.

Problem being, people ARE maintaining the debris field. And all that preassumes an ability to attain and maintain orbit to begin with. Something NO ONE has be able to do.

They're not maintaining it if the Dragon Dreadnoughts are blowing them up when they approach. Even without missiles, the Dreadnoughts have a tremendous advanatge over most Orbital ships, and that doesn't include any Kittani spacefighters that may be introduced.

If Splynncrth wants up, he gets up. If he wants space, he gets space. There is nothing up there that can stop him.

Yet oddly enough, despite the presense of hostile forces with the ability to destroy Atlantis at any time; he hasn't "gotten up". One wonders if estimates of his ability are perchance, exaggerated?

[/quote]

What hostile force? The ones up in the sky who never do anything, never make hostile moves or gestures, and just keep him down on the planet with all the slaves he wants? Earthspace has nothing he needs, and less he wants.

Mark Hall wrote:The retrograde orbit of the debris field is what causes the damage (and the relative velocity).

Not exactally. A high difference in relative velocity causes damage, the retrograde orbit causes the difference in relative velocity.

Most pre-Rifts satellites would not be in a retrograde orbit, as that would pointlessly expensive.

Pointlessly expensive today, 300 years from now? Further, 25% of the kil-sats are disguised as orbital debris, it wouldn't be much of a disguise if they were moving the opposite way.

Pre-Rifts satellites still exist, and many operate in the 150 mile range (and, arguably, pose a hazard to navigation, even to the orbitals, given the text on page 22). While the debris field must be maintained, it cannot be as broad as you have painted or those pre-Rifts satellites could not pose a danger.

If the satellites are in retrograde orbits that problem largely goes away.

Likewise, a retrograde orbit debris field above the 280 mile mark would shred most satellites, as a retrograde orbit is more energy-intensive, and therefore expensive.

While true that a retrograde orbit is more energy intensive and expensive, those facts in no way support your claim of a 280 mile line being necessary for satellite survival. If the satellites moved in the same orbits as the debris, the large majority of relative velocities would be below the threshold necessary to inflict MDC damage on impact.

Furthermore, the debris field being above that point makes it hazardous to those who maintain the field... they are extremely limited in their maneuverability without being holed by debris.

So it's dangerous for folks coming from higher up the gravity well out of a less debris dense environment, but less so for those coming up the gravity well through a more debris dense environment? Methinks, you have things backwards.

Fill? No. Interdict, given their superior technology?

Superior? The Moon republic's tech base is within 50 years of the Three Galaxies, where the Kitanni are nothing special technology-wise. Superior technology is a fragile hook to hang an arguement on.

Why dump it in the ship? That's unnecessary complication. Put it in a giant container with a beacon on it, dump it into space, and then have the Dreadnought pick it up.

What happens when the supply container takes a lethal hit? Can you say high velocity shrapnel?

They're not maintaining it if the Dragon Dreadnoughts are blowing them up when they approach. Even without missiles, the Dreadnoughts have a tremendous advanatge over most Orbital ships, and that doesn't include any Kittani spacefighters that may be introduced.

What kittani spacefighters? And all the Orbitals would have to do is send one of their VR space mechs out on a collision course. One hit, one kill. And the Moon colony has got WAY more than 10 space capable VR mechs.

What hostile force? The ones up in the sky who never do anything, never make hostile moves or gestures, and just keep him down on the planet with all the slaves he wants? Earthspace has nothing he needs, and less he wants.

The ones that could take a surplus shuttle craft and crack open the planet like a rotten egg-shell.

duck-foot wrote:are we still argueing about this. good grief.

you know what.

i would stop the meteor with my army of super awesome sexy cyber-ninja space-cowboy lovely amazon catgirls. if they cant do it. no one will.

plus they look good in a bikini

That makes as much sense as anything else.

Samored II wrote:

duck-foot wrote:are we still argueing about this. good grief.

you know what.

i would stop the meteor with my army of super awesome sexy cyber-ninja space-cowboy lovely amazon catgirls. if they cant do it. no one will.

plus they look good in a bikini

That makes as much sense as anything else.

Wow. So much irony in one sentance.

Samored II wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:The retrograde orbit of the debris field is what causes the damage (and the relative velocity).

Not exactally. A high difference in relative velocity causes damage, the retrograde orbit causes the difference in relative velocity.

Most pre-Rifts satellites would not be in a retrograde orbit, as that would pointlessly expensive.

Pointlessly expensive today, 300 years from now? Further, 25% of the kil-sats are disguised as orbital debris, it wouldn't be much of a disguise if they were moving the opposite way.

Pre-Rifts satellites still exist, and many operate in the 150 mile range (and, arguably, pose a hazard to navigation, even to the orbitals, given the text on page 22). While the debris field must be maintained, it cannot be as broad as you have painted or those pre-Rifts satellites could not pose a danger.

If the satellites are in retrograde orbits that problem largely goes away.

Likewise, a retrograde orbit debris field above the 280 mile mark would shred most satellites, as a retrograde orbit is more energy-intensive, and therefore expensive.

While true that a retrograde orbit is more energy intensive and expensive, those facts in no way support your claim of a 280 mile line being necessary for satellite survival. If the satellites moved in the same orbits as the debris, the large majority of relative velocities would be below the threshold necessary to inflict MDC damage on impact.

Furthermore, the debris field being above that point makes it hazardous to those who maintain the field... they are extremely limited in their maneuverability without being holed by debris.

So it's dangerous for folks coming from higher up the gravity well out of a less debris dense environment, but less so for those coming up the gravity well through a more debris dense environment? Methinks, you have things backwards.

Fill? No. Interdict, given their superior technology?

Superior? The Moon republic's tech base is within 50 years of the Three Galaxies, where the Kitanni are nothing special technology-wise. Superior technology is a fragile hook to hang an arguement on.

Why dump it in the ship? That's unnecessary complication. Put it in a giant container with a beacon on it, dump it into space, and then have the Dreadnought pick it up.

What happens when the supply container takes a lethal hit? Can you say high velocity shrapnel?

They're not maintaining it if the Dragon Dreadnoughts are blowing them up when they approach. Even without missiles, the Dreadnoughts have a tremendous advanatge over most Orbital ships, and that doesn't include any Kittani spacefighters that may be introduced.

What kittani spacefighters? And all the Orbitals would have to do is send one of their VR space mechs out on a collision course. One hit, one kill. And the Moon colony has got WAY more than 10 space capable VR mechs.

What hostile force? The ones up in the sky who never do anything, never make hostile moves or gestures, and just keep him down on the planet with all the slaves he wants? Earthspace has nothing he needs, and less he wants.

The ones that could take a surplus shuttle craft and crack open the planet like a rotten egg-shell.

Response given in the Orbital Defense thread. No reason to keep derailing this one.

Ya know, I was going to reply with a nice long reasoned response, but when I read Samored seriously imply that the Orbitals could in any way shape or form out resource Atlantis, what's the point?

10 Dreadnaughts is just a number, probably picked because its nice and round and fits well with the math of potential damage given versus potential damage taken...10 dreadnaughts is not the extent of the ability of atlantis to clear the field. And since its pretty obvious, thanks to Mark's research on behalf of us lazy people, to anyone with half a brain that the no teleporting rule you tried to assert is utter BS, the limitations on Atlantis to clear the field are entirely at the whim of Splynn. If he wants it gone, its gone, period.

The book really isn't any more outdated now than when it was published. And while a field might be more effective than a ring, it would also be far more resource intensive. Further we're discussing canon. So despite your feelings on the book being outdated or the effectiveness of the debris ring as detailed, this is how it exists in canon.

Books change over time, the GB use to fire at a pitifully low speed I think Mach 2. And I shouldn't say obsolete so much as simply not enough research on the topic

Samored II wrote:Not so. As shown above, the debris field may very well be less dense at 3600 miles, but even 1mg/cu-m is enough to demolish a spacecraft.

This was *stated* above, not *shown* above. You made the statement with bupkis to back it up other than gross assumptions about how much damage would be done. You pulled this completely out of your hat. I suggest you put it back there.

/Sub

Samored II wrote:A Cosmo-Knight from South America, part of the Company of Heroes (I can't recall their exact name), tried that very thing. He's never been heard from again.

So push several through there. 10% of them should make it through.

/Sub

If it is so easy to fly at the same speed and in the same direction as the debris field, then it is fairly easy to defeat it as a defense.

Also, I'd love for someone to figure out the total mass being discussed at 1g per cubic meter, because it seems to me that the numbers being discussed would add up to a fricking LOT and I'm not sure the orbitals have access to enough material to maintain something like that if it's 100,000+ miles thick.

As I'm seeing it, at 1g per cubic yard, we're looking at 5,451,776kg per cubic mile of space if it is 1g per cubic meter. Now, if it is 1,000 miles thick and it is 20,000,000 miles around, that would put us somewhere well north of a weight greater than that of the earth. I may have performed my calculations incorrectly, but what I find is that the total cubic miles taken up by a hollow sphere 1,000 miles thick and 20,000,000 miles in circular circumference is 127,284,187,371,215,705 cubic miles (rounded). Now, we multiply that by 5,451,776kg and that gives us 693,924,877,889,896,874,613 metric tons of mass to be put into motion at a speed high enough for it to cause mega damage. Also, that has to be *maintained*.

To contrast, the mass of the earth is 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 metric tons. That's about nine times more than the number above. So - do you think that the orbitals have sufficient mass to throw one ninth of the earth's mass into a great big spinning cheese grater and maintain it at that level? Again, that only assumes a 1,000 mile thickness. If it's greater, the numbers *skyrocket*.

So Samored, you are wrong.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:If it is so easy to fly at the same speed and in the same direction as the debris field, then it is fairly easy to defeat it as a defense.

Who said anything about it being easy.

Also, I'd love for someone to figure out the total mass being discussed at 1g per cubic meter, because it seems to me that the numbers being discussed would add up to a fricking LOT and I'm not sure the orbitals have access to enough material to maintain something like that if it's 100,000+ miles thick.

Then it's a good thing no one is saying that.

As I'm seeing it, at 1g per cubic yard, we're looking at 5,451,776kg per cubic mile of space if it is 1g per cubic meter.

And if it's 1mg (like I said) it would be 5452 kg per cubic mile. Nickle-iron has a density of approx 8 g/cm3 so we're talking about a lump of rock a little less than 0.7 cubic meters every cubic mile. That's a little smaller than a portable refrigiderator.

Now, if it is 1,000 miles thick and it is 20,000,000 miles around, that would put us somewhere well north of a weight greater than that of the earth. I may have performed my calculations incorrectly, but what I find is that the total cubic miles taken up by a hollow sphere 1,000 miles thick and 20,000,000 miles in circular circumference is 127,284,187,371,215,705 cubic miles (rounded). Now, we multiply that by 5,451,776kg and that gives us 693,924,877,889,896,874,613 metric tons of mass to be put into motion at a speed high enough for it to cause mega damage. Also, that has to be *maintained*.

To contrast, the mass of the earth is 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 metric tons. That's about nine times more than the number above. So - do you think that the orbitals have sufficient mass to throw one ninth of the earth's mass into a great big spinning cheese grater and maintain it at that level? Again, that only assumes a 1,000 mile thickness. If it's greater, the numbers *skyrocket*.

That assumes a uniform density of debris throughout the field. Something I expressly did not do. Further, the mass indicated by this, oh so flawed calculation, is 1000 times too high- the difference between milligrams and grams.

So Samored, you are wrong.

/Sub

As are you.

Harry Leferts wrote:Okay Samored, you keep spouting the same stuff over and over without proof. Let me start picking apart bits and pieces.

Superior? The Moon republic's tech base is within 50 years of the Three Galaxies, where the Kitanni are nothing special technology-wise. Superior technology is a fragile hook to hang an arguement on.

Okay, now what exactly are you basing this on?

I'm basing it on a direct quote from in Mutants in Orbit, what about you?

Do they have FTL? No.

Does Atlantis?

Do they have forcefield technology? No. Do they have anti-matter tech or anything approching it? Ah, let me think. No.

Ditto.

As to the whole the Kitanni are nothing special tech wise... If this was true then why are they still feared in the Three Galaxies?

Body odor?

Once again, where are you getting your numbers from? Now I could believe this density if it was a RING but not a FIELD. This density of objects are approching Nubula density. At this point, nothing could be seen from Earth because it would be like twilight on a cloudy day. Nothing could be seen. Not the moon, not the stars, not even the sun. Ergo, your density figue is impossible.

If I had ever claimed it was a uniform field density, you might have a point. As it is, no.

And who has enough firepower to even do so? The only people I can think of being powerful enough to do so would be the Dominators, Mechanoids, or possible the Heydonites. Their the only ones who could pack enough power into a shuttle to do what you just said.

Take the old space craft described in the back of Mutants in Orbit and crash it into the Earth at 40 miles/second. KE=.5MV^2 is a LOT of energy. Multiple gigatons of energy. Do the math.

Now that I'm done with you... Finally...

Congratulations.

Samored II wrote:That assumes a uniform density of debris throughout the field. Something I expressly did not do. Further, the mass indicated by this, oh so flawed calculation, is 1000 times too high- the difference between milligrams and grams.

If you expressly did not do so, then what adjustments did you use as you pulled out the numbers for the damage out of your hat? I've adjusted for the difference between grams and milligrams and still arrived at a ridiculous number. Oh yeah, and I used your numbers for the radius of the field.

As are you.

...and I corrected it. So, according to your calculations reporting that it starts at 100,000 miles out and is 19,000 miles thick, it's *still* 15,647,170,802,786,592 metric tons.

Guess who is *still* wrong.

/Sub

Samored II wrote:

Do they have FTL? No.

Does Atlantis?

Do they have forcefield technology? No. Do they have anti-matter tech or anything approching it? Ah, let me think. No.

Ditto.

Does Atlantis have FTL? Yes. Whether its a technological contra-gravity drive used by the Kittani, or a magic-based rift drive as used by the UWW, Splugorth clearly have access to one or both.

Does Atlantis have force fields? Yes. It's called armour of ithan, and, again, the UWW also makes extensive use of it on their magic-based spaceships.

Samored II wrote:That assumes a uniform density of debris throughout the field. Something I expressly did not do. Further, the mass indicated by this, oh so flawed calculation, is 1000 times too high- the difference between milligrams and grams.

Something you expressly DID do is very strongly imply that the AVERAGE density is 1mg per cubic meter of space. You verge on having SAID it.

/Sub

Falconi wrote:So.. A massive Earth-Killing meteor is on its way to wipe out all life. Its not so huge that it will annihilate the Earth but certainly large enough to blanket it in a Greenhouse-enducing haze which will certainly make the planet uninhabitable for a millenea.

Will the killer satelites shoot it down? Will the Moon-Men who man constant vigil over the skies of Earth raise a finger to save us or would they be like, "Cool - now maybe I won't have to pull guard duty anymore."

1 = The killer sats should be facing Earth, not space, because their job is to take out anything coming up from Earth. This may have changed due to the arrival of the Arkhons.

2 = Barring interferance from the Arkhons, I believe the orbital communities would alter the trajectory of the asteroid so they could mine its reasources.

3 = IMO, the Arkhons are just as likely to prevent an asteroid collision not only for the same reason as the Orbitals, but because part of the Arkhon fleet is on Rfts Earth as well.

Talavar wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Do they have FTL? No.

Does Atlantis?

Do they have forcefield technology? No. Do they have anti-matter tech or anything approching it? Ah, let me think. No.

Ditto.

Does Atlantis have FTL? Yes. Whether its a technological contra-gravity drive used by the Kittani, or a magic-based rift drive as used by the UWW, Splugorth clearly have access to one or both.

Does Atlantis have force fields? Yes. It's called armour of ithan, and, again, the UWW also makes extensive use of it on their magic-based spaceships.

The Splugorth, yes. Splyncryth? No. Your arguement is the equilivent to saying that since the US Airforce has nuclear weapons, an airman standing guard in Minot ND could call down a 100 kiloton tomahawk strike. Not happening.

Subjugator wrote:

Samored II wrote:That assumes a uniform density of debris throughout the field. Something I expressly did not do. Further, the mass indicated by this, oh so flawed calculation, is 1000 times too high- the difference between milligrams and grams.

Something you expressly DID do is very strongly imply that the AVERAGE density is 1mg per cubic meter of space. You verge on having SAID it.

/Sub

But what I actually said was that AT that density the field would be effectively impassable. Your assumptions to the contrary are your own.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Do they have FTL? No.

Does Atlantis?

Do they have forcefield technology? No. Do they have anti-matter tech or anything approching it? Ah, let me think. No.

Ditto.

Does Atlantis have FTL? Yes. Whether its a technological contra-gravity drive used by the Kittani, or a magic-based rift drive as used by the UWW, Splugorth clearly have access to one or both.

Does Atlantis have force fields? Yes. It's called armour of ithan, and, again, the UWW also makes extensive use of it on their magic-based spaceships.

The Splugorth, yes. Splyncryth? No. Your arguement is the equilivent to saying that since the US Airforce has nuclear weapons, an airman standing guard in Minot ND could call down a 100 kiloton tomahawk strike. Not happening.

Splynn isn't an airman, he's the God-Emperor. God-Emperor's get what they want, especially something as trivial and common as FTL drives (at least, trivial common to Splugorth).

Subjugator wrote:...and I corrected it. So, according to your calculations reporting that it starts at 100,000 miles out and is 19,000 miles thick, it's *still* 15,647,170,802,786,592 metric tons.

Guess who is *still* wrong.

/Sub

You. Since I've long ago sitpulated the field begins around 150 miles above the surface and extends to 19,000 miles.

Jesterzzn wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Do they have FTL? No.

Does Atlantis?

Do they have forcefield technology? No. Do they have anti-matter tech or anything approching it? Ah, let me think. No.

Ditto.

Does Atlantis have FTL? Yes. Whether its a technological contra-gravity drive used by the Kittani, or a magic-based rift drive as used by the UWW, Splugorth clearly have access to one or both.

Does Atlantis have force fields? Yes. It's called armour of ithan, and, again, the UWW also makes extensive use of it on their magic-based spaceships.

The Splugorth, yes. Splyncryth? No. Your arguement is the equilivent to saying that since the US Airforce has nuclear weapons, an airman standing guard in Minot ND could call down a 100 kiloton tomahawk strike. Not happening.

Splynn isn't an airman, he's the God-Emperor. God-Emperor's get what they want, especially something as trivial and common as FTL drives (at least, trivial common to Splugorth).

He's the God-Emperor of a giant flea-market, not the Splugoorth race.

Lets take a look at how dense the debris field around Earth would have to be to provide effective interdiction of 90% of all trans-orbital objects.

Minimum amount of nickle-iron to inflict one MDC damage:

1. Palladium impact damage rule: 1 lb will inflict 1 MDC for every 20 mph greater than 50 mph velocity.
2. Nickle-iron density 8 g/cc
3. Orbital closing velocity 10 miles/second

1 lbs= 455 grams
10 miles/second = 36000 miles per hour-50 mph/20mph= 1798 mdc/455 grams= 4 mdc/gram. So one cc of nickle-iron traveling at 10 miles/second will inflict 32 MDC or 250 mg of nickle iron at that velocity will inflict 1 mdc. At 8g/cc that mass has a volume of 0.3125 mm3. We'll call that the Mimimum Damage Unit (MDU)

There are 147,197,952,000 cubic feet in a cubic mile. If the desired debris density is one MDC per 10 feet there would need to be 147,197,952 MDU/cu-mile.

One cubic meter of nickle-iron weights 8000 kg and there are 3,200,000,000 MDU per cubic meter of nickle-iron. So 21.74 cubic miles of space can be filled with one cubic meter of nickle-iron MDU.

The volume of the field was solved by finding the volume of a sphere radius 19,000 miles and subtracting the volume of a sphere 150 miles. The volume of the debris field is then 2,871,633,253,667 cubic miles and would require 1,320,898,460,748 cubic meters of nickle-iron to fill with MDU. An impressive total to be sure.

One 15 mile long, 5 mile wide nickle iron asteroid would contain 294.38 cubic miles of nickle iron, or 1,227,008,526,206 cubic meters of nickle-iron.

Mutants in Orbit states there are thousands of 15 mile asteroids available to the Orbitals. So many, no one bothers to go to the Oort Cloud any longer.

It is therefore trivially easy for the Orbitals to have created and maintained a contra-orbit debris field that would inflict 79,200 MDC/melee on every 10 ft cross sectional value of material crossing the debris field. (That's 1 MDC/10 feet, 528 MDU per mile, 10 miles per secondx 15 seconds per melee.)

Samored II wrote:He's the God-Emperor of a giant flea-market, not the Splugoorth race.

Dude, you are a riot. Seriously. A riot.

Let's see.

Klynncryth is powerful enough in the Three Galaxies (your stated Tech level of renown) to have promised Phase World he can keep ALL OTHER splugorth at bay...and deliver on that promise. Impressive, if you ask me.

Klynncryth's prestige among his fellow god-like beings is stated to be BELOW that of Splynn's.

Do you really think you are helping your argument by pursuing this angle of portraying Atlantis as anything other than a Phase World caliber power? You are showing that you will grossly misscharacterize things to suit your arguments, and your characterizations are easily rebutted by even a modest knowledge of the Rifts universe.

A riot.

Samored II wrote:But what I actually said was that AT that density the field would be effectively impassable. Your assumptions to the contrary are your own.

Well, since all I'm arguing against is your own words and you are now repudiating them (a good thing too, as they were pulled from nothing canonical whatsoever) we have no more argument.

/Sub

Samored II wrote:
He's the God-Emperor of a giant flea-market, not the Splugoorth race.

Yes, to echo Jester, he's the God-Emperor of one of the most important and strategic locations in the whole megaverse, one of only half a dozen or so transdimensional super nexuses in all of existence.

Hardly a flea market keeper.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Does Atlantis have FTL? Yes. Whether its a technological contra-gravity drive used by the Kittani, or a magic-based rift drive as used by the UWW, Splugorth clearly have access to one or both.

Does Atlantis have force fields? Yes. It's called armour of ithan, and, again, the UWW also makes extensive use of it on their magic-based spaceships.

The Splugorth, yes. Splyncryth? No. Your arguement is the equilivent to saying that since the US Airforce has nuclear weapons, an airman standing guard in Minot ND could call down a 100 kiloton tomahawk strike. Not happening.

No, it isn't. You should jot that comparison down in a dictionary next to the entry for 'hyperbole' though, it might be helpful.

Here's why that example is bogus: First, the airman is a low-ranking member of the military that defends the US nation - there is no Splugorth nation, or rather, each is a nation unto itself. Splynn isn't greatest among Splugorth, but neither is he least (in fact, he seems to be closer to the top of the pile than the bottom). Any resources common to one Splugorth are apparently common to all Splugorth (or others shouldn't really have access to Kittani, Kydians, or Sunaj - but they do).

Second, Splynncryth's Kittani are the prototypical Kittani. Before they were written as the minions of all Splugorth, they were the minions he personally rescued from the Mechanoids. They must have spaceships and FTL technology, it simply hasn't been documented for players yet, beyond a mediocre starfighter that could still massacre the orbitals given the numbers of Kittani & their production capabilities.

Third, Splynncryth can send countless minions to Phase World and the Three Galaxis and simply buy any type of space drive he wants. And then rift it home. That's the advantage of dimensional travelling combined with near-infinite cash: if you want something, and it commonly exists anywhere, you can buy it.

Here's another way Splynn could get rid of an asteroid, the orbitals and the debris field: buy Star Ghost fighters from Phase World. They're openly for sale - and they can go intangible. While intangible, they're undetectable to conventional scanning. Their phase cannons could kill all the orbitals without even damaging the stations they live in, go blow up the asteroid with anti-matter cruise missiles, and then start clearing the debris field and kill-satellites once there's no one to replenish them.

Samored II wrote:Lets take a look at how dense the debris field around Earth would have to be to provide effective interdiction of 90% of all trans-orbital objects.

Minimum amount of nickle-iron to inflict one MDC damage:

1. Palladium impact damage rule: 1 lb will inflict 1 MDC for every 20 mph greater than 50 mph velocity.
2. Nickle-iron density 8 g/cc
3. Orbital closing velocity 10 miles/second
...
*snip*

Your debris field is still too big. 19000 miles - 150 miles, the thickness you're working from, has been debunked for a variety of reasons others have given, but here's another: Rifts Earth isn't trapped in a nuclear winter, which it would be given a debris cloud of that size & density.

Falconi wrote:So far though, aside from the direct book quotes I've seen (Which are few) everything is hypothetical and therefore subject to an exhaustive debate upon which there can never be a resolution. "I disregard your reality and insert my own." is the gulag we're in right now..

That was my first point - I was just showing him the impossibility of his hypothesis.

/Sub