Christian Minister

[Steeler49er]

Oh, and before I forget, Transmutation is a Perfect Super power to grant to a Preacher OCC, even if in limited use...
I'd suggest that your limited to a number of forms of matter in which you can trancemute Other forms of matter into (Based on ¼ your ME+1 Per level)... Range should remain touch but Duration could be moved to Hours for the Trade off.
Additionally The Permanence Duration cost could be increased to 2D6 PE & 10% of your HP & SDC, but the loss is not permanent.
Lastly you could Further reduce the Affectable Mass to 10Lbs Plex And Give the player a limit of Changes per day or based off of PPE/CHI/Power Touch Points/Spirita Anima/Bio-E/ISP/HP&SDC/Or Even PE/ME...
Inreturn you can allow the player to Transmute matter into Complex molecular structures Like Water into wine.

[Steeler49er]

Great work up Steeler! I personally don't use Christianity in my games (though I've considered it before), my characters work on the principal of "more evolved being" than actual deific concepts, and the "YOU LOOK AT THAT GREAT BIG BLUE WALL OF GLOWING ENERGY AND TELL ME MAGIC DON'T EXIST!!!???" attitude

Personally I played RPG games so that I could go into a world where I could get away with stuff God would never Want me doing, so originally I forbade (Is that a word) God and Christianity form my games... But Christianity is one of the Biggest things to ever have happen to this world, which Rifts is based off of. The world wide progression of human society for the last two thousand years was the direct Butter Fly effect of Chirstianity and was Way to much of an impact to "Just Ignore" (As one of my atheist plays pointed out to me)...

For good and or for bad (from many peoples angle) Chrisianity is why we're here today... He argued the ButterFly effect of Physics against me, cuz he knew that I can't argue against the thing I hold most true... Cheater!
So I've now allowed it To a limited extent in my games. BUT THERE WAS NO FRAGGING WAY I WAS GONNA LET SOME PLAYER CALL ON THE G-MAN FOR SMITE SMACKAGE... Letting God in the game is a Mega cheat, cuz he's so Neat (It rhymed, couldn't help it )...

So that is one reason I wrote PALLADIUM APOCRYPHA... well that and I needed some more Palladium world/megaversal history to be worked out.

[Steeler49er]

Whoa guys!!! LOL. I was using the " " to represent the term "heretical". I meant no harm and the poster was not offensive at all. I guess I haveto learn the etiquette of this board a bit better, but this is the most laid back board that I've ever seen and I was nowhere near offended.

I'm sorry, no one so far as I've seen means any harm. Seriously.

Misuse of emotes. Five yard penalty. Replay the down.

LOL-A football fan I see!
Cool

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Whoa guys!!! LOL. I was using the " " to represent the term "heretical". I meant no harm and the poster was not offensive at all. I guess I haveto learn the etiquette of this board a bit better, but this is the most laid back board that I've ever seen and I was nowhere near offended.

I'm sorry, no one so far as I've seen means any harm. Seriously.

Misuse of emotes. Five yard penalty. Replay the down.

LOL-A football fan I see!
Cool

I am amused. A not-Locked-Count is how many times I can post before a flame war gets a topic locked. I stopped at 5 in a previous thread cuz I thought it cooled down, but then mack jipped me outa my 7.

You see, I thought you were about to start a fight/discussion on theology. Some people in the world believe that their version of Faith is the only True one. Luckily we are Blessed with a lack of them, otherwise they would have started Lynching people by now.

[Crucible]

I only say that in the game you cannot use magic (in my games) because it would take away from the true grit of being a man of God. If you can use powers thn it would steal from the need to have Faith in God's will. I played a Rogue Scholar who was a minister back before I was even a Christian and he moved some furniture...LOL. I mean it was awesome. No magic was used.

[Shark_Force]

You see, I thought you were about to start a fight/discussion on theology. Some people in the world believe that their version of Faith is the only True one. Luckily we are Blessed with a lack of them, otherwise they would have started Lynching people by now.

believing your religion is the only true one does not necessarily mean that you need to have a rabid determination to crush and tear down every other religion (or system of beliefs, or whatever you wish to call it). i happen to believe that my religion is the correct one, and that no other religion is fully correct (though pretty much every religion has elements of truth). that doesn't mean that i feel a particularly urgent need to shove it down everyone else's throats, though.

(that said, it certainly does seem to work that way disappointingly often, considering i am unaware of any religion that teaches people they should be angry and hateful towards others)

anyways, as far as the discussion goes, i could see christian priests who have magic (though they likely wouldn't think of it as magic), and i could see those who don't as being equally logical ways to go about things. ultimately, miracles are not required to be a minister, or at least not miracles like parting the red sea or even hurling balls of fire at your enemies, or being able to tell when someone is telling a lie. certainly, those kinds of miracles *could* be performed, but they are not necessary.

i would go further and say that different christians would probably have different viewpoints on magic based on their experience. some would condemn all magic, stating it is of the devil. some would embrace magic, and would even go so far as to declare that some spellcasting classes are prophets, ministers, and so on. some would probably see magic as being just another tool, not different from technology except in how it is manipulated. and there's probably hundreds of other possible viewpoints on magic that i haven't covered. personally, i would tend towards christian ministers not even being an OCC per se... abraham was not a professional priest, he was a land-owner. Moses was an aristocrat, and then a shepherd. Jesus was a carpenter. David was a shepherd, and later a soldier, a general, and a king. Solomon was also a king. Paul was a tentmaker. Luke was a physician. Joseph in Egypt was an administrator. all of these people would be considered as "priests" of some sort, but i tend to think it doesn't necessarily require an actual OCC to represent them; proper selection of OCC related and secondary skills can cover most any need, in my opinion. most of those people wrote sections of the Bible (not sure about what might be in the apocrypha, but in the version i use Abraham, Joseph, and Jesus did not actually write any scripture themselves, though at least in the case of Jesus much of the new testament is based on things he is attributed as having said)

[Misfit KotLD]

I only say that in the game you cannot use magic (in my games) because it would take away from the true grit of being a man of God. If you can use powers thn it would steal from the need to have Faith in God's will. I played a Rogue Scholar who was a minister back before I was even a Christian and he moved some furniture...LOL. I mean it was awesome. No magic was used.

I'm just pointing out the ancient prophets did have magic furnished by God. Parting the Red Sea, turning a staff into a snake, casting down the walls of Jericho, all performed by an Israelite Priest. Catholic saints typically performed miracles too. The line of demarcation was where the magic came from. If it wasn't from God, the magician was in deep excrement with God.

[Steeler49er]

Whoa guys!!! LOL. I was using the " " to represent the term "heretical". I meant no harm and the poster was not offensive at all. I guess I haveto learn the etiquette of this board a bit better, but this is the most laid back board that I've ever seen and I was nowhere near offended.

I'm sorry, no one so far as I've seen means any harm. Seriously.

Misuse of emotes. Five yard penalty. Replay the down.

LOL-A football fan I see!
Cool

I am amused. A not-Locked-Count is how many times I can post before a flame war gets a topic locked. I stopped at 5 in a previous thread cuz I thought it cooled down, but then mack jipped me outa my 7.

aH, so that's wah a Lock down count is... Pretty, umm.. Something of a word that sound slike cute, But not... Ah, Pretty Creative (Took me till I started typing before I could remember the word, I hate it when my mental Thesaurus breaks down )

You see, I thought you were about to start a fight/discussion on theology.

Wait, You thought 'I' was gona start a flame war? Or someone else was?

Some people in the world believe that their version of Faith is the only True one. Luckily we are Blessed with a lack of them, otherwise they would have started Lynching people by now.

Yes... We are turly rare
It'sa GUUD to be unique'... Kinda like an X-Man...
But with out the Niffy super powers

[Steeler49er]

You see, I thought you were about to start a fight/discussion on theology. Some people in the world believe that their version of Faith is the only True one. Luckily we are Blessed with a lack of them, otherwise they would have started Lynching people by now.

believing your religion is the only true one does not necessarily mean that you need to have a rabid determination to crush and tear down every other religion (or system of beliefs, or whatever you wish to call it). i happen to believe that my religion is the correct one, and that no other religion is fully correct (though pretty much every religion has elements of truth). that doesn't mean that i feel a particularly urgent need to shove it down everyone else's throats, though.

Guys guys... I read the small thing he wrote, It was misconstrude and was ment as a joke, he Never said anything that was a put down... In fact, he only said "Ewww guy. Thats a bit... "
And he appologized fer any misunderstanding! It's nothing we All haven't done here on the boards from time to time...


I mean, Look at that cute 'play on words' that I did over on the Heroes Unimited pages "New Powers" thread. I jokingly Spoofed one of 'Stone Gargoyles' powers he created (which I liked) and he started accussing me of bashing him. He ranted on me twice over, Once initial and once After I removed it... I could have gotten really peeved that he was putting evil motives behind what I wrote in saying that I was tearing on his creation, or the other things he said about me w/o even wishing to hear my side...

Gosh knows that is what I wanted to do, but didn't figure he'd have listened And, I didn't want that tread locked so, I just Left the thread and let it be... I ment nothing bad (and again I would have appologized profusely if I'da thought he'd listen). I won't be going back there cuz I don't feel right there anymore, I'd hate fer Crucible to feel the same way.

Crucible ment no harm, apologized profusely fer the mistake... Lets move on back to this Very Cool headed discussion.
After all, ten years ago None of us could ever talk about these this w/o it starting right off with name calling...
I've never seen a Thread go this long w/o a fight, This is an awsome moment for us all, we can finally feel Free to discuss this stuff like those smarties Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle did 2300+ years ago.


This has been AMAZING for me to see that we have all grown so much in 15+years of posting here... (EVEN IF MY NERFED POST COUNT MAKES ME LOOK LIKE A NEWBY .... sooo many funny one liners deleted!!! It's a crime I sayz).


This has been an Awsome thread
Thank fer the Great story ideas everyone
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________RATTZ
☻

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

I gotta admit, I'm impressed, as the thief steeler said, this is the first christian/religion related topic to
A) not suck
B)not devolve into a fight

Thats pretty awesome, and some of the views and opinions expressed were similarly epic. I especially like YHWH, and the 150 trillion years later thing. Very cool, and well written.

One question on that Steeler49er, did you get the black lighthouse/thingy from scripture, or conceive of it on your own?

[taalismn]

I gotta admit, I'm impressed, as the thief steeler said, this is the first christian/religion related topic to
A) not suck
B)not devolve into a fight

Thats pretty awesome, and some of the views and opinions expressed were similarly epic. I especially like YHWH, and the 150 trillion years later thing. Very cool, and well written.
?

To quote a line from Alan Dean Foster: "The general consensus was that the Deity was sitting back, watching the proceedings, and having a good laugh..."

[Crucible]

I only say that in the game you cannot use magic (in my games) because it would take away from the true grit of being a man of God. If you can use powers thn it would steal from the need to have Faith in God's will. I played a Rogue Scholar who was a minister back before I was even a Christian and he moved some furniture...LOL. I mean it was awesome. No magic was used.

I'm just pointing out the ancient prophets did have magic furnished by God. Parting the Red Sea, turning a staff into a snake, casting down the walls of Jericho, all performed by an Israelite Priest. Catholic saints typically performed miracles too. The line of demarcation was where the magic came from. If it wasn't from God, the magician was in deep excrement with God.

It wasn't Magic per se. Thse were Miracles...(The messenger is not important) As a ministr myself I would have to say that while its not offensive to think otherwise (a compliment actually) we as men ofthe cloth take NO responsibility for what is done through us. I affect they would be GM controlled miracles and not PPE using magic. You can, however, allow psychic powers. Another RPG has its own abilities set asid and calls them miracles.

[Misfit KotLD]

I only say that in the game you cannot use magic (in my games) because it would take away from the true grit of being a man of God. If you can use powers thn it would steal from the need to have Faith in God's will. I played a Rogue Scholar who was a minister back before I was even a Christian and he moved some furniture...LOL. I mean it was awesome. No magic was used.

I'm just pointing out the ancient prophets did have magic furnished by God. Parting the Red Sea, turning a staff into a snake, casting down the walls of Jericho, all performed by an Israelite Priest. Catholic saints typically performed miracles too. The line of demarcation was where the magic came from. If it wasn't from God, the magician was in deep excrement with God.

It wasn't Magic per se. Thse were Miracles...(The messenger is not important) As a ministr myself I would have to say that while its not offensive to think otherwise (a compliment actually) we as men ofthe cloth take NO responsibility for what is done through us. I affect they would be GM controlled miracles and not PPE using magic. You can, however, allow psychic powers. Another RPG has its own abilities set asid and calls them miracles.

Just what makes psionics kosher where divinely handed magic is not? I would argue psionics are an aspect of sorcery as biblically viewed because it is achiever through inner knowledge and self-empowerment. You keep losing me on your reluctance for priestly magic, which works just like clerical magic did in at least all incarnations of D&D up to 2nd Ed. The priest merely is a conduit for his/her deity's might. He need not know a thing about magic or even be literate to channel this might.

[cchopps]

I don't include the J/C mythos in my game mainly because I've taken a very bleak view of the Palladium universe. I think it is mostly Palladium Fantasy Canon, though.

The Old Ones created the Multiverse. Horrible. Alien. Incredibly Evil. The original Demons/Devils, Spirits of Light (Angels), and Dragons were a possibly unintended consequence of the creation of the Multiverse.

I sort of go with Neil Gaiman / Mage the Ascension view that man (the mortal races) came before the Gods. Mortals came up with the stories and the Gods were born, their power based on the faith (and number) of their worshipers. In the "early" days of the Multiverse, they were fairly weak.

Then the big battle from Palladium Fantasy happened where the mortal races with the assistance of the Spirits of Light (and Xy's mistake) were able to imprison the Old Ones. Per Palladium Fantasy, the majority of the Spirits of Light (including pretty much all of what I consider the "Greater Spirits of Light" using the Greater/Lesser mechanic in the game) leaving only a few Lesser Spirits of Light (Cheruu, Seraph, Ariel, & Tharsis) left in the Multiverse.

This means that on a metaphysical level the Multiverse is mostly a fairly evil place. So now in terms of High End Beings, you have Alien Intelligences (experiments and "lesser" progeny of the Old Ones), Gods, Demon/Devil Lords and some Greater Demon types. The only good in there are the Gods of Light but they are worshiper dependent and rarely focus outside their areas of influence or worshipers. Not really the Multiverse at large.. and this means that any "Good" in the Multiverse now is basically only their because of Mortals. Though I am thinking of saying that the Cosmic Forge is one of (or the only) remaining Greater Spirit of Light in the Multiverse.

From here you could go two ways with the J/C God. If I wanted it active in the game (change from the books) to maybe make it another Greater Spirit of Light. What I went with was that it was just like the other Gods, and but that Humanity became incredibly secular during the "Golden Age of Man" combined with the beliefs outlined in I think the Adventure Guide where a typical belief by humans is that the Coming of the Rifts was punishment by angry god/gods for man's hubris and the lack of literacy and books equals almost no worshipers for the J/C god and so is pretty much out of the picture.

To make the J/C or Earth God more powerful than the others or the like I would tie it in to something that has to do with Rifts Earth being one of the six Super High PPE locations in the Multiverse and the importance of that. But for the most part, the J/C God has gone the way of the gods in Gaiman's American Gods... and the Multiverse is innately a vast and dark place created by the horrible Old Ones.

C. Chopps

[Misfit KotLD]

I may be a little rusty, but I don't recall where the Old Ones made the megaverse, though they are responsible for many of the beings residing in it.

[taalismn]

I don't include the J/C mythos in my game mainly because I've taken a very bleak view of the Palladium universe. I think it is mostly Palladium Fantasy Canon, though.

The Old Ones created the Multiverse. Horrible. Alien. Incredibly Evil. The original Demons/Devils, Spirits of Light (Angels), and Dragons were a possibly unintended consequence of the creation of the Multiverse.

I sort of go with Neil Gaiman / Mage the Ascension view that man (the mortal races) came before the Gods. Mortals came up with the stories and the Gods were born, their power based on the faith (and number) of their worshipers. In the "early" days of the Multiverse, they were fairly weak.

And in the Terry Pratchett view of things, gods start out as ideas and memes that clamor for attention, do small deeds and tasks to gain recognition, and as they gain adherents and devotion, they no longer have to time-share worshippers with other neo-gods...

[cchopps]

I may be a little rusty, but I don't recall where the Old Ones made the megaverse, though they are responsible for many of the beings residing in it.

It is said as a "maybe" in the Conversion Book One (the original I don't have revised) and in Palladium Fantasy 2nd ed. "some would credit them with the creation of the entire universe" Conversion Book to me also implies that they predated the "gods."

Hmmm... lemme see.

In Dragons and Gods it says that the Old Ones "once ruled the universe" and that they have all the Alien Intelligence powers plus all the deific powers. Conversion Book 1 also says that the Old Ones can not be destroyed.

Compare to what it says about the Gods. In Dragons & Gods it says that Gods must have worshipers and without them they lose their non-combat related immortality. It also says that all of them can be destroyed in combat.

It should be noted that it also says in Palladium Fantasy 2e that the Palladium world people believe the Gods created their world. Not common knowledge that the Old Ones created it which it says they did in the Palladium Timeline.

Conversion Book 2 *does* have two paragraphs about if you want to include a "Supreme Being" in your game (which is what a lot of people are talking about when they refer to the J/C God in the forums) but the language of the write-up seems pretty against it and I read that as "not being canon." Compare this to all that has been written about the Old Ones.

So, while there is some vagueness I think all the pieces are there.

C. Chopps

[Misfit KotLD]

Yes, so you can safely say, "Maybe." That's all the texts honestly allow for. If you are under the impression I am arguing the gods did it, you are mistaken. The gods are, as you pointed out, less than even the least Old One. The gods are also younger than the Old Ones. But nowhere does canon state the Old Ones created the megaverse. Although if you take that route, "Let us make him in our image," could refer to the negative emotions humans have and the Old Ones have dominion over.

[Crucible]

[/quote]
It wasn't Magic per se. Thse were Miracles...(The messenger is not important) As a ministr myself I would have to say that while its not offensive to think otherwise (a compliment actually) we as men ofthe cloth take NO responsibility for what is done through us. I affect they would be GM controlled miracles and not PPE using magic. You can, however, allow psychic powers. Another RPG has its own abilities set asid and calls them miracles.[/quote]Just what makes psionics kosher where divinely handed magic is not? I would argue psionics are an aspect of sorcery as biblically viewed because it is achiever through inner knowledge and self-empowerment. You keep losing me on your reluctance for priestly magic, which works just like clerical magic did in at least all incarnations of D&D up to 2nd Ed. The priest merely is a conduit for his/her deity's might. He need not know a thing about magic or even be literate to channel this might.[/quote]
I'm not saying that a "priest" who has magic couldn't be a "Christian" no more than I deny that a Mild Melter could. Psionics are rarely if ever learned. Maybe a mystic could view his magic as Divine, but a Ley Line Walker could not. He learned it through his own "want to". Wishing to have power over creation is pride and that would be against God. Psionics are sometimes not even known that the character has.

If you wanted to do that in your game then fine. I have no problems with it. I just know that God is not limited by the preconcepts of man to understand His miracles. Thisis why I would leave it up to the GM. Nw in all actuality the "gods" that grant powers normally would be considered those who fell and their children by Biblical standards and it was Azazel who taught magic by Book of Enoch. So with tha being the case I would not llow a minister or preacher to be a magic user as far as an OCC, but he could still roll on the Psionics chart as having a psychic abilities.

Being "called" as aPreacher is way different than learning Magic. Even the Vampire Masetr has his own abilities why would a Preacher or Minister OCC not?

[Misfit KotLD]

Being "called" as aPreacher is way different than learning Magic. Even the Vampire Masetr has his own abilities why would a Preacher or Minister OCC not?

Can you change your font color, I can't even see that on my screen. Second, how does being called by said higher power differ significantly from the Priest or Warlock OCC? Both can be said to have been called; both can function without any understanding of magic.

[Misfit KotLD]

It's only blasphemous if you expect the GM to poly up an actual miracle rather than something in the game. I thought we left this understanding of gaming in the 80s.

[Misfit KotLD]

Only I don't see anyone making the leap of blasphemy you are referring to. In fact, short of Chick Tracts, I have never seen it happen. I refer here to the GM/God conflation.

I do see some folks needing a special designation for something that is handled mechanically already, but that's been covered too.

[Misfit KotLD]

You have an interesting way of illustrating it.

[Steeler49er]

I gotta admit, I'm impressed, as the thief steeler said, this is the first christian/religion related topic to
A) not suck
B)not devolve into a fight

Thats pretty awesome, and some of the views and opinions expressed were similarly epic. I especially like YHWH, and the 150 trillion years later thing. Very cool, and well written.

One question on that Steeler49er, did you get the black lighthouse/thingy from scripture, or conceive of it on your own?

What, of no... I'd originally come up with the idea, but wasn't sure it would fit in the PB megaverse untill someone used a "Dark Tower which appeared on battle feilds throughout time" referance in some PB Rifter or Canon book. Once I realized that people had already been using the consept in Their stories for years, I just thought that it may Actually work in the story after all, so I desided to make it More of a focus fer peeps who may like that old story...

Kinda like that picture of the Kittani City in the first Atlantis Book having the hidden image of the Macross in the background... An Easter Egg if yoou will. The Only problem was, After I read the Black Lighthouse/towers description, I realized how far of the tower in the story was in appearance... In the end I just played it off for the PC's that the Tower took on differing and more recognizable appearances to some people.

Glad though that you got the hinting that the Black Tower was now intended to be the Black Tower mentioned in lore... Your the first to notice

[drewkitty ~..~]

As for explaining the monotheism, what if Yahweh, a storm-god similar to Baal took over Baal's portfolio then took over the function of El as well. Both El and Baal were important deities in the Canaanite pantheon, after all. Rather than keeping Asherah or Astarte, Yahweh's host continued warring with the remaining gods until he reigned supreme. It also may explain why Yahweh's priests do not receive spells while other gods' priests do.

This seams be an explanation for a game setting, but does not work in the real world.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I gotta admit, I'm impressed, as the thief steeler said, this is the first christian/religion related topic to
A) not suck
B)not devolve into a fight

Probably because the discussion did not drift into making stuff up that offends the christens here till the second page of posts, and just stuck to how the character would act, and what real christians can and can't do, due to their faith.

[Misfit KotLD]

As for explaining the monotheism, what if Yahweh, a storm-god similar to Baal took over Baal's portfolio then took over the function of El as well. Both El and Baal were important deities in the Canaanite pantheon, after all. Rather than keeping Asherah or Astarte, Yahweh's host continued warring with the remaining gods until he reigned supreme. It also may explain why Yahweh's priests do not receive spells while other gods' priests do.

This seams be an explanation for a game setting, but does not work in the real world.

Of course not. In the real world, we can credit syncretism not deific ambition.

*Edited for spelling*

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Christian Priest character prays to God for his healing light and love. The player crosses off X amount of PPE and notes that the character is casting Heal Wounds. As long as the character is in the good graces of the big guy, it ought to be reasonably expected for the prayer to work the same every time.

However, the GM has to know what is in God's Will to know which "prayers" will get answered with a immediate Miracle, Coming From God. Not the Char. And there is only one way to know God's will with out just making it up. And that is to actually understand God's will, through reading The Book and applying what he's read. Other answers to prayer are "no", "not now", "be patient". God Always answers prayers, even if we don't like the answers.

A little blunt speaking...
These are just some of the reason that PB has smartly stayed away from including anything about Christianity in their fiction/flavor text in their game books. Because if they did, they would most assuredly would get it wrong in some aspect of the doctrine. Then there would be the people who would get offended by finding one of their past-time or lifestyles listed as perversions & sins (fornicators, adulterers, homosexuality, 'recreational drug users' just to name a few), if they did get the doctrine done correctly,. They would be raising hell over it.

[Misfit KotLD]

A little blunt speaking...
These are just some of the reason that PB has smartly stayed away from including anything about Christianity in their fiction/flavor text in their game books. Because if they did, they would most assuredly would get it wrong in some aspect of the doctrine. Then there would be the people who would get offended by finding one of their past-time or lifestyles listed as perversions & sins (fornicators, adulterers, homosexuality, 'recreational drug users' just to name a few), if they did get the doctrine done correctly,. They would be raising hell over it.

Drew, the history of Christianity is full of disputes within the religion, full of Christians who got it wrong, at least according to other Christians.

[Shark_Force]

in any case, going back to the alien intelligence workaround (which, from a game perspective, makes it really handy for representing God in the game universe, though i imagine few if any christians would agree that its an accurate representation of God in the real world)

i'm just thinking, God is limited by the faith of those who call on him. IRL, this is not a physical limitation of His power, (it's more a limitation in ourselves) but for game purposes, you could potentially make it a physical limitation... or rather, you can allow the alien intelligence to target believers with spells even if they are not within normal range (even extending to other planes), but only believers, and also allowing it to tap into their PPE for those purposes (but only those purpose) while also being limited to the PPE available from believers in that same dimension/world (and not being able to use it's own).

this would conveniently allow for stuff like, say, making the israelites so effective in battle that their enemies could not stand against them (imagine facing an army of people with invulnerability or armor of ithan and such when your army is normal people!)

just a thought relating back to the alien intelligence possibility of handling christianity, for those who choose to use it.

[Steeler49er]

"They are the Mad Gods from the Abyss from before time itself! None know from were they came, a dying or dead universe before our perhaps, but they sleep now and forever... Or one should hope!"
PALLADIUM APOCRYPHA Part 3

In the dead expance that was once creation, in a lone Galaxy, neverending sadness could be heard in the sounds of crying and fear... Fear of the eternal loneliness brought on by a crime with mitagating cirumstances that surely, no one would wish to here. The Machine, the creature that Would be the bringer of life lay still and hidden, even from the sights of the Externals and it would hae stayed this way till the end, untill entropy took the last the lasts of this place away forever.

The deaths cause by the Last One, who we will call 'The Mad One' and 'The Destroyer', could be messured in numbers equalling Trillions but it was far worse in the fact that there deaths had forever Changed the Externals in a way not yet realized by these forgotten progenitors. When the Externals did create their Childer, The Last Ones, they did so by using bits of their own life Matrix, or souls, to do so because they could Not bear any of their own... This was the second of their curses but, just like the first, was only the end result of Gods making of them Eternally Mortal in the Flesh at their own request. In order for them to Truely be Eternal in Flesh evry once of the Externals mortal bodies had been suffused with their spirits... As was the way, when man and beast were made alive they possessed a soul, an amorphic energy that permeated the creature down the very atoms and molecules and which was the whole of their being. It was Pure memmory and recorded Everything that happened to the body of the being... Everything! Should however their bodies perspire, in time the soul would have nothing to latch onto as the body would erode and the sould would begin to lose cohesion. God had made it so that Man should not die for all time since it was they that would bare His Son who was he, for he was present in All time and thus was all powerful but had No begining or end, save for that moment of christs birth and death on the cross. These events would take place for God in the past And in the Future, for all time was his, and for this Man was to be blessed with a Spirit unlike Anyother to have come before... A spirit carved from Gods Own body!

This spirit which had been promiced to Man Long before time was Beyond power and would have No limits, save for what God would place apon it. With this spirit body the soul would find itself made full and complete, as this was what the Soul of Man had been built for, and with it Man could tap into All of their souls stored Knowledge and in that moment be made to know everything, and in this New Perfect body that was Separate and yet still eternaly a part of God, they could forever become powerful and should sit with and rule with God above even the other hosts of heaven.

But, the creator must Always be Pure and good for He alone is the Engine of law which holds Reality itself in order and If he should take upon and into himself a sinful being, which was nothing more than a being of dissordered thought and unwillingness to complie with what must be done when needed, he would have invited sin into himself and would therefore become it! Because he respected, to a point, the free will and choice of man to choose him, he would Not change that person against their wills and thus the person would be as they were on Earth And in Heaven and would be destruction to the machine, like a virus. And for those that Did give themselves over to God, their gifts were many for God realized what they had given up for him, which was nothing to the hosts of heaven but for them was all they knew and thus was everything to them. The first of their gifts was thier Soul made eternal in the spirit/matrix of God, which ment that they could do Much good for all beings in creation, but based on ones actions while being of flesh, their Spirit bodies would be releaved of a certain limitation each time as a gift.

Those that would be the External, for whatever reason, while Flesh on earth became aware of all this and yet could not completely let go of their flesh which they loved. They came together the twelve of them, much they thought of as being like the Disiples that way, and Did ask God for Only but to have their Bodies, Souls, And Spirits Fused together so that the flesh could live on... In the begining they believed God had done so because of what they were, but in this they were wrong for to do that would Forever link their sin to God! What they didn't know was that God Could Not do this for all beings sake he must remain forever remain Sane, so he Cut off that protion of his Spirit and did seal them into their bodies. They did not know and it would be forever till they did.

They Could not be changed by Anything, nor could they chane from waht they were by their own doing and thus could bare no child of their own... And thus, the second cures!




Rebirth of a type.

After the events of the loss of the First Ones by the had of he who was Mad, the Externals realized that, after 140 trillion years of endlessness) something of them was made differant for a number of externals had simply Died of heart break. They were mortal again, well, not quite for it was not known How they had simply perished! Also in this time two Externals, one male and one female, sought solace in eachother for the first time in eons... And for the first time Ever, the female was with child! In The Sadness that had become the new name for the Externals, they would cheer and life could begin a new... They were a race once again and anew.

And those deaths pestered so! Fear of release from Flesh would now ahunt them, But She knew better... For they were Not released from this reality but rather from the Madness of sameness. And She was the First Born! She who's name was unpronounceable do to it's length, a length given because of how importance she was to the Externals for she now encompassed all hope, did grow as a human and yet was still somehow not human and when she reached 16 years of earth time, she did go forth with her created friends out into the Abyss. The Exalted realized this and cryed "Return to us!", and yet She did Not return for She had a job to do for she could hear crying from the dark and in her heart she knew something needed her, something needed hope.




APOTHYOSIS-PALLADIUM APOCRYPHA Part 3, chapter 2

She moved through space within the shap that had made for this trip, but she knew that she was no longer in need of one to make it to where She was going, still the trip was long and she chose to bring with her the friends created by her External Parents so that in this her parents would hopefully not be too baddly worred, that and the trip was very long and she had always been with her built friends. It would take her Months traveling at speeds not realized before she reach the Dead Red dying Galaxy in which the Last Ones and perished from no more than 30 years prior, and from which She had heard the sadness and crying in the dark even before She'd been born... This was her reason for being, and Nothing made har happier than knowing She would soon fulfill that reason for being by doing something amazing!

The world of the Last Ones was quite and had grown to be a dead dying twillight world with only the nebulous red gases of the erroding galactic sky to show Any illumination, it was "empty" she thought as she used a power not known by her kind, one which allowed her to ride the winds down from her ship that hovered just above her, yet it was not completely empty for IT was here... Right in plan sight, not that she gave that knowledge away.

The ground was a silver and ripped up metal like matter and the sky above was afloat with islands which seemed to defy local gravity, but she could see with her eyes And mind their inner workings as being technological in preternatural sence. She saw only this worlds beauty. The towers which, on the horrizon, seemed to stretch forever into space like millions of thin stalks of trees now dimmed by the low illuminations from the dull red clouds and stars. The moons numbered 5 and came in many colors and sizes... some with visable construction, others devoid so... So dead and yet beautifully quite!

"Are you there?"... "I will stay here with you now, for you are not alone!"... And from that day forth, the Machine of Creation was not alone! She talk out loud for days seemingly to the air, and still there was no responce, then on the 5th day she spoke out loud and said "They'll be here soon to take me away! I'll stay if you'd like but, I prefere a partner to speak with... An I know you are here!"

In a whisper not audiable to human hearing, a single word was uttered in sadness... "Why?"
She spoke "Because I heard you crying... I have always heard you crying!"
Again It spoke, this time allowed "I have done a great many bad things... I must not..."
And She spoke over It saying "Your time for crying is over! You were not guiltly of anything, other than to your giving of proper judgement when No one else was around to do so!"
"But I murdered all of your kinds children! Even the last of them."
"You became Law that moment The Mad One commited those acts, the only form of Justice in the universe at that moment. One following a Truly Just Law can never commit murder, only carry out it's duties!"

A pause and in it a small metal sphere appeared above her and in front of her and it spoke.
"But I felt Anger, That means I did not do it out of a noble sence of Justice but out of rage! I am a machine that is broken, but can not destroy myself-Help me do so."
"But one who does not possess emotions would be a Mere machine, and you are no mere machine! You were made to be so much more, and you are. Would it suprise you to know that the Externals had emotions when they would Judge? It is nature to use them when you have them, even when judging."
"But I have taken the life of my creators, how can you, Their creators not wish me harm?"
"I forgive you, and you can pay back your dept by performing your task! By bringing life back into this universe! Do what the Last Ones wished for you to do and you will never be alone ofr you will be Life... And in life, love exists."

And with that the silvery sphere did change in form, becoming as big as all that did still exist here, and if light could have travel fast enough for it, those in still living the other galaxies could have seen it. Its ultimate form was that of a giant door and from it the whole of creation not yet to be, became visable for all of the universe to see. She had done what it was she had been born to do... And with that, She was no more and She walked with The Creator.
When the the other Externals saw this they did not understand, so She who's name Ment Hope did visit them and explained to them that "This was the end of this αἰϝών/æon of death, The Last days that will be the begining of a many New æons to coming. And the Externals did change in form and the first Gift of their spirit was given to them who had become many (dozens) in this time...
And They Became Formless...

And in that day The Great Machine of Creation became The Forge of All of the Megaverse which, in that day, did spill forth out from it.
It became the Cosmic Forge.



The end....?




Next story... The Mad Ones in the Tower!
A short story By Rick Steeler

[Steeler49er]

in any case, going back to the alien intelligence workaround (which, from a game perspective, makes it really handy for representing God in the game universe, though i imagine few if any christians would agree that its an accurate representation of God in the real world)

i'm just thinking, God is limited by the faith of those who call on him. IRL, this is not a physical limitation of His power, (it's more a limitation in ourselves) but for game purposes, you could potentially make it a physical limitation...

You have a good point for game mechanical reasons, and it's the first one I considered using in a game where God was present in full, but I then realized that "In Rifts, it is really heard to doubt the existance of the supernatural!"... As such players who "Realized Just how powerful God really is" could do anything!
So if going that rout one should realize before going there, that In the fullness of Gods statement about Moving mountains one Must realize that God is the Giver of Faith in the first place! So if it ain't in Gods will, he'll likely Not give you the faith of a Mustard Seed to do it!

I only realized how bad Not using this level restriction in your games could be (IE True believers in a universe filled with the seemingly impossable), untill I allowed a MAGE into ABERRANT TRINITY!

You know... a world where people are accepted as being able to do anything, and it's okay! That Mage had very little restrictions...
Ouch

[Steeler49er]

this would conveniently allow for stuff like, say, making the israelites so effective in battle that their enemies could not stand against them (imagine facing an army of people with invulnerability or armor of ithan and such when your army is normal people!)

HA HA HA
Better yet would be if they all got someone from the Heroes Unlimited Boards to Make them all Munchkins via Grant Super Power: Mimicry, Then they all copied their 'GM' Version of God-(Who, of course has Invulnerability, Invulnerable Essence, Divine Aura & Healing, Physical Perfection ala Black Vault, Izcers Bend Reality, The Power M.D.C., Mega PS, Energy Conversion, Multiple Beings, Mimicry,Energy Expulsion: All...etc.)

Thems be some Badars Jews... Yeah, That's one army I'd bolt from!

[Crucible]

Hey guys. I'd like to say that this is really good and I'm seeing a lot of great ideas here. Don't get so worked up. There is a game that I have been playing that has an inspired type of character and their abilities are called "miracles". I really like that format because it gives a priest his own abilities outside of te general mage type character. Warlocks, Diabolists, and Shifters have their deal so I'm trying to work up a Minister OCC for my game. I have been thinking about making them something like a Palladin, but I did want to separate them. As stated above by a poster who had some awesome things to say...its mostly semantics and true that. It is, but I still wanted a nice separation to make one different from the others. I have made several OCC's in the past (like th Dreadnok OCC) and later a new OCC came in Rifts Canada which made that OCC old news. Headhunter Anti Robot Specialist.

To tell the truth I really love Rifts (player for 15yrs and serious KS fan) and you guys are greater (even you Misfit) than most guys on MB's. I just wanted some ideas and to see what you have done. You can't have a real debate on how someone else runs a game as a GM, but you can read a debate and pick up better ideas. I love Steeler49ers work. Talk about publishable quality. Some of you other guys have great material too! If Misfit writes up a Christian Minister for a book I'll definately spend my $$$ on it magic or not.

You just can't go wrong with Rifts. Sorry again for the color schemes. The first one wasn't mine...thats why I got confused and did it on the second one..

Excuse my typing as well. My keyboard is sticking every other letter and the screen jumps when I type so I can't see what I'm writing until after.

[Steeler49er]

Woo who!

Well Thank yer fer saying that about all of us here Crucible! Your gone fer a couple years, and when you get back you Tell us all how much yah miss us and how much alla us Palladuims are Kewl! Dude, thank you!
Short of Waysenna (She usedta be poster here) saying "I do" to me, what yoou said was just about one of the most Up lifting kinda things anyones ever said about my writting!
You realy are a Preacher man



Oh, and sorry yawl fer taking a day to put that last Palladium Apocrypha short story up, but my UBBER cute daughter kinda occupies me... And sorry fer the Bad editing on Chapter Two,,, I tried to write it too fast... Gomenasai
I just wanna say thanx to you guys fer say yah like it, It's my most earily peice of work and has been a few years since I last wrote it, but I just wanted you guys to have something fer Ideas.

Night

[Crucible]

Woo who!

Well Thank yer fer saying that about all of us here Crucible! Your gone fer a couple years, and when you get back you Tell us all how much yah miss us and how much alla us Palladuims are Kewl! Dude, thank you!
Short of Waysenna (She usedta be poster here) saying "I do" to me, what yoou said was just about one of the most Up lifting kinda things anyones ever said about my writting!
You realy are a Preacher man



Oh, and sorry yawl fer taking a day to put that last Palladium Apocrypha short story up, but my UBBER cute daughter kinda occupies me... And sorry fer the Bad editing on Chapter Two,,, I tried to write it too fast... Gomenasai
I just wanna say thanx to you guys fer say yah like it, It's my most earily peice of work and has been a few years since I last wrote it, but I just wanted you guys to have something fer Ideas.

Night

So you met your wife here? If so then God does work in glorious ways!

Is it a no-no to write up fan made OCC's?

[Steeler49er]

As long as it isn't a direct (or to much of a roundabout way) copy of existing intellectual material...
EXAMPLE: I for got who it was last week or so but, a new poster posted a link to his Shinigami OCC, which took Nekira and the rest of us all of two seconds to realize (After looking at it) that it was a Copy of the Characters from the anime Bleach...
Fun anime BTW, it'sa must watch fer me!

That was Way too close to the Shinigami from the show, similar powers, names, backgrounds, Heck even their swords He got from the show. And that'sa Huge No no. Otherwise allota people have posted some super Kewl OCC's here in the past... Feel free.

And I already knew my wife as, we'd dated since wez was teens in the early 90's and wanted to get marroed then, but we held off untill we wer ready. I proposed to her in 20'03 (Yeah, I can now say "Way back in the Twenty 'O' Three"-so very Sci-fi to say ) and we got married in 04, had our goofy daughter in 05 (She's a real miracle cuz she sooo Goofy cute) and have been in Luv ever since... But she quit posting here over a year ago now, I'd try and get her back in but, She's my biggest critiquer for my work and I'm shy ...


Hope thats of help...
FYI-I was out and didn't see yer message untill just now.

[Steeler49er]

FYI- I'm likely to be gonna tomarrow and may not get to post the short story "The Mad Ones in the Tower" which is VERY much creepy in my mind, but may not be so on paper/errr post!

It's the final story in the arc.



I'm gonna go loiter over on the nprime.net boards (AKA RPG-post... and Not RPG-post.com)... Night

[Crucible]

As long as it isn't a direct (or to much of a roundabout way) copy of existing intellectual material...
EXAMPLE: I for got who it was last week or so but, a new poster posted a link to his Shinigami OCC, which took Nekira and the rest of us all of two seconds to realize (After looking at it) that it was a Copy of the Characters from the anime Bleach...
Fun anime BTW, it'sa must watch fer me!

That was Way too close to the Shinigami from the show, similar powers, names, backgrounds, Heck even their swords He got from the show. And that'sa Huge No no. Otherwise allota people have posted some super Kewl OCC's here in the past... Feel free.

And I already knew my wife as, we'd dated since wez was teens in the early 90's and wanted to get marroed then, but we held off untill we wer ready. I proposed to her in 20'03 (Yeah, I can now say "Way back in the Twenty 'O' Three"-so very Sci-fi to say ) and we got married in 04, had our goofy daughter in 05 and have been in Luv ever since... But she quit posting here over a year ago now, I'd try and get her back in but, She's my biggest critiquer for my work and I'm shy ...


Hope thats of help...
FYI-I was out and didn't see yer message untill just now.

Oh yeah. That was much help. I will be married for 3 come August 12...I'm excited. I've only been ordained since July 16th...this year. I used to be a jerk and a loser...LOL!!! I was a serious flamer here and just left the boards after a few tiffs about some things that I don't evn remember. Then there was soeone telling me that I had to write in subject. I had too much tude to comply.

I stopped playing Rifts a while back and put in a search for CJ Carella and found Eden. He was sill there at the time. I'm just sick of the system. Guys there swear up and down that Palladium is somehow broken, but thats with a broken system being their fave.

I'm an Atlanta Falcons fan, but was happy for the Steelers and just a little irked that the Niners didn't try harder to get a QB, but Crabtree is someone I know so thats good too.

My whole reason for the Minister question is that I was looking for a way to put them on par with the Warlocks (who have their own abilities and the others.

I'm thinking of giving them their own OCC by making them somewhat like the Rogue Scholar with two or three Specials, an ability like the Paladin and minor psionics. I may even give them a list of abilities/"spells" tat are homebrew and call them Miracles or just make them after the othr game in question.

I just don't like magic for them in my game.

[Balabanto]

You posted serious flames. You were not a "Serious Flamer." That has an entirely different meaning, and I KNOW you didn't mean that.

[Rallan]

The Christian Priest character prays to God for his healing light and love. The player crosses off X amount of PPE and notes that the character is casting Heal Wounds. As long as the character is in the good graces of the big guy, it ought to be reasonably expected for the prayer to work the same every time.

However, the GM has to know what is in God's Will to know which "prayers" will get answered with a immediate Miracle, Coming From God. Not the Char. And there is only one way to know God's will with out just making it up. And that is to actually understand God's will, through reading The Book and applying what he's read. Other answers to prayer are "no", "not now", "be patient". God Always answers prayers, even if we don't like the answers.

A little blunt speaking...
These are just some of the reason that PB has smartly stayed away from including anything about Christianity in their fiction/flavor text in their game books. Because if they did, they would most assuredly would get it wrong in some aspect of the doctrine. Then there would be the people who would get offended by finding one of their past-time or lifestyles listed as perversions & sins (fornicators, adulterers, homosexuality, 'recreational drug users' just to name a few), if they did get the doctrine done correctly,. They would be raising hell over it.

And yet several deities from the Hindu faith (the third largest religion on the planet) are live and well in Rifts and bestowing badass spell lists on their chosen. It raises questions about double standards

[Rallan]

Anywise, time to raise some more sensible questions since I ain't done much except snipe so far.

What would christianity be like on Rifts Earth? This is, after all, a planet where a massive apocalytpic event that was totally not predicted by the Bible and bears little if any resemblance to the End Times happened four hundred years ago. It's also a planet where the deities of several major pantheons (both historical Earth religions and new D-Bee faiths) literally walk the Earth, but where God and Christ and all the big-name Angels are conspicious by their absence. A planet where the sacred sites of all kinds of religions from the Druids and ancient Egyptians to the Native Americans have become powerful places of magic, but where holy christian sites seem suspiciously mundane. Where a clear distinction can be made between priests who cast spells because of their faith in a god, witches who cast spells because of a pact with evil powers, and magicians who learnt magic without the aid of a higher power can be drawn. Where objectively evil beings are everywhere and only some of 'em bear any resemblance to critters from judaeo-christian myth, and objectively good beings are everywhere and none of them are even remotely christian. Not to mention that when the very biblical Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse turned up, they were (presumably) defeated by a coalition of powerful adventurers and Egyptian gods. And for bonus points, global travel and communication are virtually nonexistent, which probably had ramifications for the larger hierarchical churches like the Catholics and Anglicans, since the local bishop can't just get on the phone to Rome or Canterbury.

Now I dunno about you guys, but I'm guessing all of that might've had just the teensiest bit of an impact on christian beliefs and practices.

[Library Ogre]

Perhaps if you gave a Christian minister powers similar to a mystic, with a limited spell access. Whether the powers actually came from a divine source,the minister would believe it to be the case.

Which is another good option. You have someone who is functionally a Mystic. However, in believing himself to be empowered by YHWH, his powers mimic things found in the Bible, or his own understanding of how YHWH works.

Is he empowered by God? A devout, but misguided, individual? Or a fruitcake?

[Library Ogre]

Anywise, time to raise some more sensible questions since I ain't done much except snipe so far.

What would christianity be like on Rifts Earth? This is, after all, a planet where a massive apocalytpic event that was totally not predicted by the Bible and bears little if any resemblance to the End Times happened four hundred years ago. It's also a planet where the deities of several major pantheons (both historical Earth religions and new D-Bee faiths) literally walk the Earth, but where God and Christ and all the big-name Angels are conspicious by their absence. A planet where the sacred sites of all kinds of religions from the Druids and ancient Egyptians to the Native Americans have become powerful places of magic, but where holy christian sites seem suspiciously mundane. Where a clear distinction can be made between priests who cast spells because of their faith in a god, witches who cast spells because of a pact with evil powers, and magicians who learnt magic without the aid of a higher power can be drawn. Where objectively evil beings are everywhere and only some of 'em bear any resemblance to critters from judaeo-christian myth, and objectively good beings are everywhere and none of them are even remotely christian. Not to mention that when the very biblical Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse turned up, they were (presumably) defeated by a coalition of powerful adventurers and Egyptian gods. And for bonus points, global travel and communication are virtually nonexistent, which probably had ramifications for the larger hierarchical churches like the Catholics and Anglicans, since the local bishop can't just get on the phone to Rome or Canterbury.

Now I dunno about you guys, but I'm guessing all of that might've had just the teensiest bit of an impact on christian beliefs and practices.

You left out the Demon Locusts, and the coming Minion War.

[drewkitty ~..~]

However, the GM has to know what is in God's Will

Dude, it's a game. It's ALL MADE UP.

Which book? There are at least 9 different versions of The Bible (I'm assuming you mean this as The Book), and all are incomplete, created by Man, written in over half a dozen different languages including some not actually spoken in over 1000 years, and each interpretation of the words within differs based on when it was written, when it is read, the life experiences of the reader, and the history of the reader's culture.

Bible is Latin for Book. The Bible was written in Two Languages hebrew (Old T.) and Greek (New T.) I've heard that the koran, that Mohammed has a comment that reads something like 'If you don't believe me, then ask the followers of the book if what I say is true.'(given as an example to the 'The Book' phrase.)

Not too long ago it was interpreted that women should shut the hell up and if they wanted to know anything about anything they were to ask their husband. Without a husband the woman could not ask questions, only receive knowledge given to them by their immediate male relatives. So by that example, were I to tell my wife or daughter that the moon is purple, if she disagreed, I would be religiously bound to beat the holy snot out of her with a rock -- else I'd not be a "true Christian." (This sounds like the local customs to president over what is acutely in the bible. It was Christianity that acknowledged women as people, and started the change which towards freedoms (for women and everyone) enjoyed in western countries.)

Hell, even the 10 Commandments aren't the 10 Commandments. (They are the 1st 10 laws of the Jews, which were given to then by the voice of god.)

But that discussion really doesn't belong here -- the mechanics of the game do. The mechanics are there should a person wish to play a Christian Priest/Reverend/Padre/Minister/whatever.
(To play a christen you need to know what christens believe, in order to get the right Game mechanics correct. The Biggest thing I've been trying to get across is that "Christens can not be magic users of any sort." Not that they are Nega-Psi that absodamnlutly do not believe in anything supernatural.)
Be

In any case, it's a game, it's all made up.

If the game is "all made up" then go ahead and make up a fictional god for the game, and don't use Christianity, even in name. There are already too many groups out there calling themselves 'christen' to play off the name recognition to get converts (examples: Smithites aka Mormons & Jahova witnesses).

[Misfit KotLD]

If the game is "all made up" then go ahead and make up a fictional god for the game, and don't use Christianity, even in name. There are already too many groups out there calling themselves 'christen' to play off the name recognition to get converts (examples: Smithites aka Mormons & Jahova witnesses).

How about for Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastriamism, or the Neo Norse religion? These are all real world religions and all fictionalized in game.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It would take someone from those groups to defend their beliefs.

[Misfit KotLD]

It would take someone from those groups to defend their beliefs.

So it's ok to treat other religions in a manner that is insulting to Christianity but not to give Christianity the same treatment?

[Crucible]

It would take someone from those groups to defend their beliefs.

So it's ok to treat other religions in a manner that is insulting to Christianity but not to give Christianity the same treatment?

You're an Atheist I take it.

[Natasha]

It would take someone from those groups to defend their beliefs.

So it's ok to treat other religions in a manner that is insulting to Christianity but not to give Christianity the same treatment?

I always thought that was kinda the unwritten rule of things, but unconsciously so.