Whats so wrong about humans?

[DvlsAdvc8]

Dunno, I almost always play a human. Hell, last game I played in I played a human Rogue Scholar. He was the natural leader of the group because of the information he always had; things he knew or could explain. One of the best characters I ever played.

[Vrykolas2k]

Personally, I find that people who look down on other peoples' character choices and/or force them to play something they don't want to are bad RPers, and lack imagination.

See now here I'm gonna have to disagree very muchly. I'm going to generously allow you to say your piece first though.

Ya, well, you're a doodie-head.

Counterpoint: The "I WANNA BE A NINJA" guy.

He's an idiot. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a bad RPer and lacks imagination

Agreed, if that's all the hell he ever plays in any game setting for any system... I hate cardboard characters.
That said, sometimes it's fun to play a ninja... though I've only done so once, waaaaaay back in 1st ed. AD&D.
Of course, that was one of 8 human characters I've played in my life.

[runebeo]

From the experience I am having, an MD PC isn't all that people seem to think it is....I play a were-beast and was warned by my GM from the beginning that my PC is vulnerable, she is in fact the most vulnerable in our group as my GM stated, all but one of the other PC's are human and the one being an elf.

As a were-beast, my PC only has HP (she does not have an MD rating), cannot wear power armor (due to her morphing), if she loses a limb, she can not have any cybernetics or bionics due to her re-gen which does not include limb regrowth...due to fear she has to keep her true identity hidden in public places, can only appear human....as I created her by the book, she only has ancient weapons proficiencies, leaving her un-battle worthy in many town settings. Yes, MDC weapons cannot kill her (can knock her out though), but magic can easily kill her and silver is double damage...if she is sensed and recognized for what she is (which is a great threat to her), she makes an easy kill for a magic user or someone with silver (silver and magic are common in our game), as she has no power armor or such to back her up, only the hope to escape. All said, Power Armor, MDC weapons and magic have been the great equalizer for humans in the RIFTS world...in some cases, such as the were-beings, what the humans have take them beyond equalizing, they are easily able to over power many of the beasties.

In one of the Rifters theres are Were beast mystics in Tribes of the Night. Using magic spells like armor of Ithan can really go far to making up for theses weaknesses you brought up.

[Rallan]

Personally, I find that people who look down on other peoples' character choices and/or force them to play something they don't want to are bad RPers, and lack imagination.

See now here I'm gonna have to disagree very muchly. I'm going to generously allow you to say your piece first though.

Ya, well, you're a doodie-head.

Counterpoint: The "I WANNA BE A NINJA" guy.

He's an idiot. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a bad RPer and lacks imagination

Agreed, if that's all the hell he ever plays in any game setting for any system... I hate cardboard characters.
That said, sometimes it's fun to play a ninja... though I've only done so once, waaaaaay back in 1st ed. AD&D.
Of course, that was one of 8 human characters I've played in my life.

You've probably seen the "I wanna be a ninja" guy in at least one of your gaming groups. There's always one around. And if he doesn't specifically wanna be a ninja, he always wants to be something that completely fails to match the general groove of the campaign. He'll look at you funny when you tell him that he can't be a Hundred-Handed in a game where the group are typical North American mercenaries. He'll wonder what's wrong with playing a Temporal Wizard in a CS campaign. He'll throw a temper tantrum because you won't let him play a Nightbane that pilots one of the CAN Republic robots in a campaign set on the Skraypers world.

There's no such thing as a type of character that's always wrong for every campaign. There is such a type of thing as a player that's always wrong for every campaign though

[johnkretzer]

Yep because the combat is a lot easier for them and the threat is less. If they are a near human that has the same vulnerabilities as a human then i will consider it fair to give them similar to the human depending on their individual actions. but if the creature is an MDC body already then that deducts 50% of the experience right off the top just because any combat is goign to be a lot easier for them than a human.

So just a question...if you don't allow these races why have rules? Also do you take into account the much higher exp charts that races w/ MDc and/or better powers has? I really think you are overlooking the fact that the rules already take this into account. Also if a human is said to be in a Glitter Boy Armor beside a lightly armor Zenith Moon Warper...do the human get the greater exp penalty as that fight is alot easier for the Glitter Boy pilot in armor?...actualy I'll include any PA in that question.

The way you run your game is great. I probably wouldn't enjoy it though...as it seems to be the same thing campaign after campaign. Also personaly a automatic no to concept without hearing it out seems a little strong to me.

Actualy I disagree will pretty much entirely on how you run your game. No insult meant...we just have different styles and likes. But I perfer to run my games with out barriers...even invisible and soft ones. My campaign litteray are me asking my players "What do you guys do?" I don't force them into any descsions...and my players have a great amount fun.

As to the human issue. I play humans...and non-humans. So am I power gamer? Because that is what you have said. Personaly I think you would not have gotten so flamed if you acknowledge that people can and do play non-humans for actual RP and not stats bonus. Because that is certainly possible.

Also your views on cybors I find at odd. Where does humanity resides...in the flesh or the spirit? So it is possible I suppose that some people might loose their humanity..as they do with any tech. I can also see a PA pilot statrt loosing it as well...but I can also see people who will hold on to their humanity all the tighter. Since this is more of Role-playing/ Character concept choice why not leave it up to your players? Do you not trust your players do RP?

Now I will fully admitt I don't know you or your players from a hole in the wall...but I have known GMs like you in the past...and it is mostly a case of they just don't trust their players. So why do you need to restrict them?

As to the CS...the way you handle tham is fine...perfectly within your rights. But for me turning the CS into a bunch of good guys probably removes the greatest bad guys ever made for a RPG. They are scary because they show that the depth that humanity can go to without outside influence. They are all too human. Which by the way makes a human hero stands all the more brighter in my opinion.

Anyway I do find your views interesting...though I think you should have been less harsh and inclusive in your remarks...and you realize my comments aren't meant to insult but to show you another side of your issues.

[Zer0 Kay]

I have noticed on here that a lot of people seem to hate being human. That role playing doesnt seem to matter as long as they get a bunch of stat bonuses and neatopowers and have a megadamage body and can throw cars they don't care what the cost or what it means.

I mean this is called Rift EARTH. Humans where here on earth first. Oiginally the game was about the survival of humans and near humans in a world gone mad with magic and creatures and all sorts of unpleasant things. But over the years the monsters are running the show and it seems like humans are beign relgated to a second class minority at best.

I run a human or near human only game with the CSA as the heros. I get the feeling that most of the people on here would rather be trapped in a car on a cross country drive with a dozen 2 year olds than sit at my table. Yet out of my group of 6 players only 1 has any problem playing a human and he will at least play near humans (catboys usually he has a furry fetish)

I mean people have said they are too limiting. How are humans limited? They created 90% of the tech on Rifts Earth, designed it and the technology can do just about anythign that magic or supernatural powers can do just as well if not better. Huans do not ahve any special dietary needs like freash blood or raw meat or nuclear waste. Yeah a human can't just wander around in the arctic naked but thats why we developed technology in the first plae, so we woulnt have to. A smart human would not be wandering around naked in the arctic.

And that is what gets me a lot of people treat adn act like there are no restrictions or costs to playign a non-human. Or if there are they ignore them. The ramifications of playign a cyborg for instance. You have traded natural senses for electronic simulations. You will never smell a rose again, you will never feel the caress of a lover or the warmth of the sand on the beach, you will never see a rainbow in the same way again. EVER! Not without goign back to biological sytems. Sure you are bigger and tougher but great grandma's rocking chair will never hold you again. And dont even think about using the good china until you get used to your augmented strength. Without the subtle connections a living body brings the consideration for your fellow humans disappers. You are a machine you no longer need to worry about these meat puppets so what if they die you'll be fine. And then you have to be put own like the maddog creature you have become. That is the inevitable end result of full conversion if the true roleplayign costs of conversion where considered.

Why all the hatred for humans? Is it just because the creatures and monsters give you more bonuses and stats and powers? Thats no fun. Might as well play on the playstation. Look at the epic stories from history. The travails of beowulf, hercules, odysseus, perseus, and tell me that you have to be somethign other than a human to stand a chance against gods and monsters.

This game used to be more fun when it was about the humans and their unwavering, unyielding fighting desire to live and survive and thive even against the odds and pressures of relentless attacks by creatues and monsters from beyond. Now he monsters and creatures have won.

1. Is it really role playing if you don't have to think... what would my character do? If you beleive that the game is about humans vs. everyone else than your a human supremesist and therefore really don't have to think "what would my character do" in any given situation because your just playing yourself. What cost are you refering too? Do you think that if you play a vampire or demon that you will start thinking like one in your daily life? Geez if that's the case no one should ever play floopers.

2. No it is called Rifts and as I recall Lazlo, New Lazlo and in the beginning Tolkeen were painted as the heroes not the CS. On Rifts Earth Humans ARE a minority. If you differentiate all of the D-bees then Humans may be equal to some but if you lump them all in under D-bees then there is no way they will ever be a majority again EVER, plus don't forget that any human that came to Rifts Earth through a Rift is called a D-Bee by the CS. Doctor Lazlo… IS a D-Bee. If you made a character of yourself that was rifted from where you live to Rifts you would be a… D-Bee. And just because of that the CS would classify you as a non-human.

3. Good for you. The leader of my last group was a human and the most powerful person in the group was a human. It isn't the CSA it is the CS the CSA is the Confederated States of America. You know the army that lost during the civil war. It's interesting one Veteran's day when I was stationed in Altus, OK my son and I were putting roses on all the veteran's graves and I found one tombstone for a member of the 1st CSA Cavalry. I explained to my son that he was a Confederate soldier and that they fought against the USA. He asked me if he should put a flower on the grave, I said yes because every soldier that has fought to defend his country deserves to be honored regardless of what side they fought on.

4. 90%? You sure about that? First off you can't really count most of the CS's older tech as created by them. Sure it was created by humans but not by humans on "Rifts Earth." Heck there new stuff was probably NEMA prototypes that they just now figured out how to manufacture. Are you talking about numbers of types of tech? Are you ruling that magic items are not a type of technology? By strict definition of the word technology all magic items should also be considered, not spells, but items. So you have all the magic tech and science tech coming in from all across the megaverse through Atlantis and if we're talking types then Atlantis probably accounts for 80%, not from native craft alone but from all the commerce.

So can tech (and in all these references I'm using it to refer to science tech) stick someone to the ground even if they fail a saving throw? Can tech annihilate something on contact (no weapon I recall in the CS arsenal can)? Can tech teleport you hundreds of miles away? Can tech tell you everything you need to know about a person from a necklace they wore? Can tech cause specific tech items to fail (I don't recall any EMP bursts in the CS arsenal)? Can Rifts human tech make someone invisible? Can tech do 832 damage at 1st level with an innocuous item and 11,648 at 15th level with the same item? Can tech produce an easily repairable on the spot suit of armor? Can tech make you completely immune to energy weapons? Can tech…. ok the list is too long. Magic can do so much more than tech yet at the same time it doesn't overpower tech. They can either be a symbiotic, parasitic or repellent interaction between the two.
Human's DO have special dietary needs you just don't think they do because you're not role playing. So humans can eat, without getting sick, completely uncooked meat (sushi, sashimi, and whatever tartar are chemically cooked)? Humans can drink filthy water? Humans create entirely sustainable cultures practicing cannibalism (it has been found that humans who practice cannibalism end up suffering from the same sickness as mad cow disease)? Human's can eat whatever plant is on the planet for sustenance (night shade)? So now with all that the special diet of healthy humans is well cooked meats, non-poisonous plants and fresh water (maybe with flavoring… but the water is still "fresh").
Smart humans don't always have a choice how they walk around the arctic.

5. Yeah costs from going from a human to a non-human but that doesn't explain the cost of playing a non-human that never was a human. Your right though a borg will never see a rainbow like he did when he was human… wait I do believe that is often one of the organic items that are kept unless the player chooses to replace them and then if they do it is probably with enhance vision so they'd be seeing bigger rainbows if they bought the right eyes because they could see the UV past the purple and the IR past the red. Maybe the guy playing the borg is going to role-play that it was the only way he could figure out to protect his family. The greatest part of a hero is the tragedy. Superman wouldn't be so super if his planet didn't blow up taking his real home and parents. Spider man wouldn't be without the tragedy of his uncle. Wolverine without Silver Fox and Mariko. There is always some tragedy that makes even the most inhuman feel human to us, the larger the tragedy the more we feel for them. Heck best line (in my opinion) from a movie that showed this. "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain… Time to die." and that was a murderous android. I feel a lot more humanity from that blathering than "You will never smell a rose again, you will never feel the caress of a lover or the warmth of the sand on the beach, you will never see a rainbow in the same way again. EVER!" I agree with you though, about losing humanity with bionics or cybernetics, heck even juicer or MOM aug. I always preferred how Cyberpunk handled that. And maybe for mages and psychics there should be a version but more like Call of Cthulu, you are bending the laws of reality or accessing parts of your brain that most people don't know they have after all.

6. I don't hate humans, I just hate fascists that think they own the Earth. If anyone on Rifts Earth has claim to it the Atlanteans do, they were here before the CS. So, I'm sure someone has already done this but, let me turn it around. Why all the hatred for non-humans? Do you not realize it is a game and that you're supposed to be trying to think like someone else and not what you would do? So a greater challenge to a role player would be "I wonder how this completely alien creature thinks. Can I make it seem like it is alien or will it just be me?" I've often thought that whenever I get players I should make them roll random race and sex (because playing the opposite sex is just as alien) that's right make them play the role they're given.
I think the only one out of your list of beowulf, hercules, odysseus, perseus only Beowulf (why aren't any of those capitalized?) deserves your admiration. Hercules was a demi-god (so not human), Perseus was also a demi-god (not human again) and both sons of Zues. Odysseus on the other hand received attention both good and bad from the gods and arguably would not have been as important without them so is it truly Odysseus' own will and determination that made him a hero? While Beowulf is all about man vs. super nature (not super natural). So in all but one of the cases you have to be something more than human or helped by the gods to defeat the gods and monsters.

7. It still is humanity against monstrosity and I don't mean Humans against Monsters. Karl is a monstrosity as bad as any Splugorth and yet Plato the Ancient Great Horned Dragon is as human as Erin Tarn. I'd rather live in a world with beastly looking Monsters than in a world with monstrous acting Humans. I don't play CS games because I DON'T want the monsters to win. Humanity should be defined by love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Not by sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. Of which the CS has only faithfulness unto themselves toward humanity but suffers from impurity and debauchery, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy from the second. So though Lazlo is more Monster than Human they are more human than monster while Chi-Town or rather it's rulers are more monster than human even though they are almost all Human.

[runebeo]

Zer0 Kay has some good points. There comes a point where a hero can become too powerful for his own story and the opposition is no threat to him, when this happens the story becomes boring, like playing video games on god mode and realizing maybe I should have finished it on normal first, now I've seen the end with no skill used.

[Zer0 Kay]

One mans monster is another mans hero been that way now and forever. History is full of examples. I use CS as bad and good. I have yet to find a place in rifts that is free of monsters every place has seemed to make a deal with a devil to survive. I even like Archie as a force of good in his twisted way.

Here here. Don't look into the abyss too long and all that.