Altess for the win!

[DhAkael]

...moving on

[KLM]

Dead wrong. They repelled a Golgan invasion a few hundred years ago, as it is mentioned in the Anvil book, and they remember
it as yesterday.
You know, those guys are practically immortal - so about 99% of personel who won against a much stronger Republik is
probably still in the Armoria.

You know, for example fighter jocks, who shot it out with biplanes, Zeroes, and MiGs (from 3 to 31) in one person and still active.

Adios
KLM

Who haven't been in a shooting war in centuries. [/quote]

Which seems like just a few years by mere mortal standards.

Sure plenty of them are still around, but plenty of them have moved on to do something else for now, or are just rusty.

If plenty of them moved, then way more Altess have militay background, than 1%.

I don't care if you are immortal or not, if you don't really use a skill for a few centuries, you're going to be rusty and maybe forget some stuff.

Except that - for my part - I expect rather realistic simulated wars, from a military of such reputation.

Frankly most are probably on the bored side with their job in the Armoria.

Why do you think that? There are more than a few militaries IRL, which haven't fired a shot in anger for decades - yet,
they are considered as opponents of the most deadly kind. Switzerland comes into mind, for several reasons (warlike history,
money, several invasions attempts, more money, stockpiled arms, even more money... and so on. Oh, and every Swiss adult man
keeps his gear - including an assault rifle with around 300 bullets or so - at home. With a yearly two week manouvre, which is also
a social event... )

Robots are also pretty darned good, but being non-AI still a little short on the imaginitive side of things.

Actually that is more than an advantage in space warfare.

As I mentioned though, I think the Altess will overcome most of this, but I think they are going to feel it in a big way when the shooting war happens. The Golgans have a large enough fleet that if they were willing to press home attacks and take serious losses they could sterilize several planets before the Altess could stop them.

Not that I deny the possibility of Altess losses, but I guess the first stages of a war would be marked by bloody losses by the Golgans
trying to cut through to Altess automated defenses (space equivalent of a minefield), about that time the sudden death of several key
figures, a series of war declarations from a few independent "proxies", another series of rebellions from the Republik.
And maybe a few strikes on Golgan targets - both from Altess spec. forces/strategic stealth bmber force (ie. phase craft) and from
mercenaries. Any attempt to bomb Altess civilian targets will result in a "hereditary victory" - see DMB7, page 112.

Oh, and one more thing. According to DMB7, the Armoria (which btw not the only Altess armed force) happens to be in the state of
alert.

Adios
KLM

[azazel1024]

The swiss militia system has its weaknesses however. They have a very tiny standing military without much in the way of 'heavy' equipment such as tanks, fighters, etc. Sure they could seriously mess up anyone who came after them, but they'd have almost no offensive punch what so ever, and to attack or even defend against any kind of attacker they'd basically have to shut the country down because they'd have to call up the militia, which is basically most of the working adult population, even if they just called up part it would still tend to shut down a lot of the country.

The real comparison between Switzerland and the Altess is the lack of strategic depth.

The Altess have perhaps a couple of dozen lightly populated system (remember, 100m Altess, that is 1/3rd the population of the US or about 1/6th that of Europe, unless their population densities typically run to well under 1/10,000 that of Earth as a whole, that means perhaps a dozen worlds). With travel times, even if the Altess had a week or two warning it would take moving heaven and earth to get extra defensive forces that weren't organic to the Armoria. Even they hired huge mercenary organizations it would probably take several weeks or possibly months depending on their location to get them mobilized and to Altess space to help fight the Golgans. Same with TGE or CCW forces.

I am not saying its impossible, but of the Golgans manage to actually catch the Altess relatively flat footed, with only a few weeks warning odds are good that all the Altess are going to have to fight against the Golgans with is what they have on hand, at least for several days to several weeks. Considering the limited defensive depth the Altess have, the Golgans might well be able to roll over it all, or at least take out key space stations and planets in a matter of a week or two.

I just don't think the Golgans have the stones to carry out the kind of offensive they'd need to do, nor the skill and officer core to manage it. Altess win, but bloody, costly and narrow.
-Matt

[KLM]

Hi there!

A few more thoughts:

1, While the Altess have probably only a few settled system, they can have a rather large "claimed territory", plus they
do have a cluster of buffer states ("proxy", under "independent worlds" in DMB7, Altess section).

2, Allies (mercs, CCW, etc) do have about the same time to mobilise as the Golgans - and actually do not need be be
in Altess space to be useful. They can hit whatever Golgan assets they can reach, which - conveniently - have their
defenses weakened (those forces were assigned to the invasion).

So, for the Republik to even start the assault, something extra edge is needed, not "just" the miracoulus dissapearrance
of their stockpiled weapons. With their future brethen on the phone, it is not unthinkable.

Adios
KLM

[Khanibal]

Another issue to consider is that, according to the write-up, the Altess aren't scheduled to be the first of the Golgan targets. First they're going to recapture their splintered systems even the one the TGE has subsumed. THEN they're going to attack the Altess. By then, the Altess will have upgraded patrols to increase security. They'll lose some forces when Novus go away, but not as much as they would have without any warning. Not to mention, that the planet isn't gone forever, it's just time-shifted. Days, weeks, who knows?

[rat_bastard]

Lurgess Bio-Terrorists.

MD masters of genetics and medical technology with custom full environmental suits of armor.

Ultrovian Shifters making deals with Dark Forces.

Does that ever work?

An entire planet of AIs producing advanced war-machines around the clock.

Altess have the same thing.

Intelligence from 400 years in the future.\

Golan Intelligence, not exactly reliable intelligence.

Zebuloid gunners.

In paper space-fighters.

A 200-to-1 advantage in numbers.

Not really, the difference in numbers is offset by money, the republik's other enemies, Naruni, Advocates, friendly governments and Mercenaries.

Similar small arms(from Naruni on both counts).

this is not going to be fought on battlefields, this is going to be a naval engagement. And the Altess can afford more guns.

And an enemy that underestimates EVERYONE.

In the Altess's defense that is justified when dealing with the Republik.

How many more "edges" do the Golgans need? While I seriously doubt they could conquer or annihilate the Altess Dynasty, who says that's their goal? All they have to do is cause the Altess a butt-load of pain and suffering to "win", if their only goal is to get a little payback for 300 years ago. What are the Golgan's strategic-goals for this conflict? It changes things if they really want to take the Central Alliance back, because then the Golgans only need to get the Altess to withdraw support from the cyborg-nutbags. That goal is readily-attainable, as the Altess are likely to overreact and bring everything in to defend their space. If the Golgans are looking to capture a few systems, they aren't likely to have much success(for all the reasons given for the Altess' superiority) and the casualties would be tremendous(on the Golgan side, while the Altess' losses will be substantually-less but will sting more). I'm not sure what other goals they might be seeking, but the strategic-aims of the Golgans will determine "defeat" or "victory".

The Golan's don't seem to have a plan deeper than "hurt those that hurt us", I'd be interested in seeing what they come up with but I don't see it going very far.

[KLM]

Hi there!

Lurgess Bio-Terrorists.
And an enemy that underestimates EVERYONE.

Yet, they are around for millenia, and statwise have a superhuman IQ. So, are they?

Not that they aren't arrogant...

Adios
KLM

[Khanibal]

Golan Intelligence, not exactly reliable intelligence.

Nothing in the books points to the Golgans being incompetent. Hell, they're smarter than humans, and have great administrative-capabilities(both handy in running a spy-network).

Well, except for the way they alienated their member system to the point they seceeded. Then the Republik just decided it was easier to let them go, rather than put any effort into war (or their crappy diplomacy).

[taalismn]

Lurgess Bio-Terrorists.
Ultrovian Shifters making deals with Dark Forces.
An entire planet of AIs producing advanced war-machines around the clock.
.

ANY of those, if they become public knowledge, could explode back in the Golgans' faces...
Bio-terrorism? You'll have people DONATING plasma ordnance to the Altess to eradicate the little germ mongers...
Dark Forces? Eww...serious backlash from the UWW and other magic users there...
AIs? Even if the CCW can't move fast enough, the Human Alliance's extremists will be sending robot-killers.


The Golgans may bloody the Altess under the most favorable estimates, but the backlash they'll face...

[Khanibal]

Ah, so this is how the Republik was destroyed. Is destroyed 400 years into the future. Will be destroyed.
This whole thing is rediculous. "Because you repelled our invasion x years ago, Now we are going to destroy you with our suicide attacks.

[taalismn]

Pride can drive people to do heroic, foolhardy, or incredibly stupid things.

[taalismn]

True, but the Golgans are going to get hashed in the process.

[KLM]

Bio-terrorism? You'll have people DONATING plasma ordnance to the Altess to eradicate the little germ mongers...

That's why you don't claim responsibility. Blame the bio-terror on "religious-extremists" in the Lurgess community.

Again, check DMB7 for the Altess euphemism of "hereditary victory". They killed everyone (actual enemies, family, friends,
probably the dog too), then made sure that everyone does the same - or else...

Dark Forces? Eww...serious backlash from the UWW and other magic users there...

Not if the Dark Forces aren't alien intelligences, sploogs, demons, or dyvalians. I doubt the UWW would get involved with stopping the Ultrovians from calling upon the Pantheon of Ahriman.

Errr... Exactly what is the difference between an AI, a demon lord or a god of darkness? Same crap, different label.

AIs? Even if the CCW can't move fast enough, the Human Alliance's extremists will be sending robot-killers.

Then why haven't they already? Mechanik has been up and running for almost 70 years...

Like they weren't paid for it yet? Not to mention, that the soda machines kept themselves on Mechanik for the time being.

The Golgans may bloody the Altess under the most favorable estimates, but the backlash they'll face...

Won't be as bad as the backlash the Altess will suffer when everyone in the Anvil Galaxy whom loses their job due to the economy realize it was the Altess drawing money out of everything that caused the "financial-meltdown". Member-races of the CCW might even petition to bar the Altess from recieving support, if their constituents ***** loud enough.

Actually, letting the Altess fall would pale it. Also, I do not think it would take such an effort ecomomicwise.

Pride can drive people to do heroic, foolhardy, or incredibly stupid things.

Exactly my point, the Golgans(with their "Cultural-Revolution") have gone collectively-bat-poop crazy. ANYTHING is possible out of these guys.

[/quote]

Actually - while I still do not have Fleets - it looks like both parties act like angry 4 year olds. Icing the cake is that both races
supposed to have higher-than-human intellect.

Adios
KLM

[taalismn]

High intellect just means you throw more involved hissy-fits...I've seen special needs people who get angry, but let it go a few minutes/hours later, while I've seen erudite people on the internet hold inane grudges for YEARS...

[Khanibal]

Either way, nothing the Golgans have done so far has adverted the fact that 400 years in the future they are defunct.

[azazel1024]

High intellect just means you throw more involved hissy-fits...I've seen special needs people who get angry, but let it go a few minutes/hours later, while I've seen erudite people on the internet hold inane grudges for YEARS...

+1

Most of our world leaders are supposed to be, and most (I said most) actually are, smarter then the average bear (person). How many wars has the world seen? A lot of them grudge fights, especially in a monarchy/dictorship situation, even if the leader is really smart, that doesn't stop them from holding a grudge and doing their smartest to fullfill it.
-Matt

[cchopps]

Here's the thing about the disappearance of Novus IX, ...The reason for that is simple, the Altess have 10% more psychics then average and they are not idiots, so when enough Altess oracles clutch their heads and scream there will be a general evacuation from Novus IX. This will involve getting as many troops as possible into the fully functional ships in the store rooms, the dime-a-dozen Naruni Gear would be left behind to reappear at some other point in time.

What if the Altess psychics get the same disease that prevented the crazy number of Tolkeen psychics from sensing General Holmes?

C. Chopps

[taalismn]

Here's the thing about the disappearance of Novus IX, ...The reason for that is simple, the Altess have 10% more psychics then average and they are not idiots, so when enough Altess oracles clutch their heads and scream there will be a general evacuation from Novus IX. This will involve getting as many troops as possible into the fully functional ships in the store rooms, the dime-a-dozen Naruni Gear would be left behind to reappear at some other point in time.

What if the Altess psychics get the same disease that prevented the crazy number of Tolkeen psychics from sensing General Holmes?

C. Chopps

This is why you shouldn't count on clairvoyance...the metaheads just keep screwing up...It's either cryptic, confusing images or they miss the really important stuff...Like winning lottery numbers(the day that 3,000 California psychics ALL choose the right Power Ball number and start openly fighting over who gets the payoff is the day I start believing...)

[KLM]

So let's review:
1) Altess can't be certain which planet will go bye-bye, when it will go, how it will "disappear", nor whom is responsible.

And will not move out the fleet assets from mothball.

2) Armoria won't know exactly where or when the Argosy will strike.

From the psikers yes. But then the officer of psi-corps picks up the phone, and
calls his buddy at HUMINT and ELINT.

3) Odds are good that the Altess drastically-underestimate the Golgans(like most of the ppl here), so asking their psychics to probe about possible Golgan attacks isn't likely to happen. Asking about Novus IX is more likely, but...

But knowing that one of our planets will dissapear is a rather good reason to mobilise, so that neighborhood
powers will know to behave or...

4) It's possible that the psychics all failed their rolls(so no advanced warning about ****).

For one psiker in the corps: about 40% of failure. For 2, it goes down to 16%, for 3, its 6,4%... For thousands?
Mind you, about 35% of Altess are psionic, so if maybe 1% of them has Clairvoyance, it means a million precognitors.
3% of them will work in the Intelligence...

5) Odds are good that the psychics will just mutter gobble-dee-gook about a planet disappearing and that "the pencil-pushers will doom us all". Remember, precognition is by nature cryptic.

It is a question of collating data. Yet, see RIFTS Earth examples, like the precognition about the Four Horsemen.
It was accurate enough.

6) The prophecy of Novus IX disappearing could be ANCIENT, like before they took out Jurgo, as could the premonitions of the Golgans storming the Dynasty. Perhaps the Dynasty figured the crisis had been averted centuries ago(with the failed invasion by the Golgans centuries ago). Altess' arrogance is the major-weakness of the Armoria.

Could happen, but see #5.

Adios
KLM

[Khanibal]

Golgans kicked TGE out of one of their systems, and are whipping the splinter systems back into line. I think that's enough activity for the Altess to correctly assess Golgan weaponry and tactics.

[taalismn]

Golgans kicked TGE out of one of their systems, and are whipping the splinter systems back into line. I think that's enough activity for the Altess to correctly assess Golgan weaponry and tactics.

I have to wonder at what the exchange rate of Golgans for TGE forces was in that victory....It might of been 'Yeah, yee-haw, we won, but I sure hope we don't have another victory like that one any time soon!', because if it was such a bloody affair, the Altess might not regard the Golgans too seriously as a threat, even then.

[azazel1024]

Maybe, but considering the Golgan's general cowardly demeanor, I think the losses would need to be relatively one sided for them to not turn tail and vamous. Of course they might have invaded some periphery system with 10:1 balance in forces and basically ran off the TGE forces on station.

When a dozen heavy cruisers and assorted smaller ships show up on the scene and your some piddly wet behind the ears captain with your Smasher light cruiser and a few frigates as your entire system OOB, you do the smart thing and get the F out of dodge.
-Matt

[glitterboy2098]

sorry to bring up an old part of the topic..

in an Altess vs. Golgan war, the Altess might obliterate any Golgan military force they meet (barring any uptime meddling), but they'd never hope to actually pacify the entire Golgan holdings...and during the war more Golgan worlds will go independant, causing chaos for both sides...

As I said before, they don't have to. The Golan Republik is in the red with Naruni bad and Naruni is the Altess BFF, they beat up a planet and call in the repo bots, Naruni Pays the Altess for acting as a collection agency and the Altess don't have to worry about the chore of holding misbehaving planets.

more like "altess beat up the planet, and call Naruni. naruni kicks the issue to it's accounting department. accounting runs the numbers, decides trying to pacify and rebuild golgan worlds is a loosing proposition economically. Naruni says "i decline to acquiese to your request". Altess scratch heads and try to figure out what to do next"

looking at the lousy political, economic, and social structure of the republik, its a mess. and that before the altess kick the crap out of it in a war. so the naruni trying to take over the republik after the altess are through is going to cost way more than they're likely to get from the deal. on the otherhand they probably would foreclose on the planets most economically viable, possibly even before the altess arrive, but for most of the planets they're more likely to leave them in altess hands and just transfer the ownership of the debt to the altess. they make more money that way. the altess have to pay for reconstruction, and have to pay the debts..

[rat_bastard]

sorry to bring up an old part of the topic..

in an Altess vs. Golgan war, the Altess might obliterate any Golgan military force they meet (barring any uptime meddling), but they'd never hope to actually pacify the entire Golgan holdings...and during the war more Golgan worlds will go independant, causing chaos for both sides...

As I said before, they don't have to. The Golan Republik is in the red with Naruni bad and Naruni is the Altess BFF, they beat up a planet and call in the repo bots, Naruni Pays the Altess for acting as a collection agency and the Altess don't have to worry about the chore of holding misbehaving planets.

more like "altess beat up the planet, and call Naruni. naruni kicks the issue to it's accounting department. accounting runs the numbers, decides trying to pacify and rebuild golgan worlds is a loosing proposition economically. Naruni says "i decline to acquiese to your request". Altess scratch heads and try to figure out what to do next"

looking at the lousy political, economic, and social structure of the republik, its a mess. and that before the altess kick the crap out of it in a war. so the naruni trying to take over the republik after the altess are through is going to cost way more than they're likely to get from the deal. on the otherhand they probably would foreclose on the planets most economically viable, possibly even before the altess arrive, but for most of the planets they're more likely to leave them in altess hands and just transfer the ownership of the debt to the altess. they make more money that way. the altess have to pay for reconstruction, and have to pay the debts..

Except pacifying debtor planets is SOP for the Naruni and the Altess own enough of Naruni to dictate terms. This is a normal procedure for Naruni, made easier by the Altess doing the first step. Combine this with the fact that Naruni already wants to pay back the Golan for destroying a collection fleet you have a recipe for pain for the Golan.

[KLM]

Hi there!

Considering that
1) The Golgans have already defeated a Naruni Collection Fleet,

This in itself makes the whole "Altess underestimate the Republik" idea nonsense.

And will not move out the fleet assets from mothball.

My point exactly. It's isn't like the Altess have a lot of people...

Nope, I left out something like "yeah, right". Not to mention, that for starships the Altess do not need

4)For one psiker in the corps: about 40% of failure. For 2, it goes down to 16%, for 3, its 6,4%... For thousands?
Mind you, about 35% of Altess are psionic, so if maybe 1% of them has Clairvoyance, it means a million precognitors.
3% of them will work in the Intelligence...

Considering only 46% of those 35 million Altess will likely have sensitive-psionics(physical and healing are options for Altess you know), and of those only a small percentage will choose Clairvoyance(considering the 23 other sensitive powers), your 1% is rather high. And what psychic-Altess would want to work for the military?

Mind you, 3% of Altess still work in the intelligence - which is not the Armoria (which is about 1% of the populace)

How many psychics live on Novus IX? The others might not even sense the coming disaster.

Except when they are asked/ordered to concentrate on the issue, as per the description of the power. Twice per day.

I don't recall the orbital colonies sending anyone to help with the 4 horsemen.

Which is a good thing, since they probably used orbital bombardment in case their "help" was needed.

Adios
KLM

[rat_bastard]

Considering that
1) The Golgans have already defeated a Naruni Collection Fleet, and 2) The CCW is stabbing Naruni in the back, and 3) The TGE hates Naruni, and 4) The Splugorth hate Naruni....
I don't think Naruni Enterprises is the big baddy they think they are in the 3Gs. I doubt they could collect on debts in the Central Alliance, much less a major power.

Collecting on the Central alliance would be child's play for Naruni, just take orbital space of any debtor planets and drop kinetic weapons on military and population centers until they pay up. The Central Alliance has nothing that could hold up against a collection fleet and the Naruni would not need to risk anyone to accomplish that.

[taalismn]

Hmmmm...Galactic arms-dealers trying to collect from a world of cybered-up cyberpunks? Sounds like Gibson Meets Star Wars....Could make for a fun campaign...

[KLM]

Hi there!

Only if the Altess weren't so arrogant.

Arrogant? Yes. Idiots? Hardly.

Mind you, 3% of Altess still work in the intelligence - which is not the Armoria (which is about 1% of the populace)

Where did you find this number? I've re-read Anvil and Fleets, but found no references to any Altess-intelligence-agency.

DMB5, page 65, under "Aviable OCC's".

Except when they are asked/ordered to concentrate on the issue, as per the description of the power. Twice per day.

And what reason would the Altess Dynasty have for ordering them to concentrate on Novus IX?

For like having a vision of a planet dissappearring? And not just the ones actually living on Novus IX, but their
family, relatives and friends. Maybe even their rivals too.

Again: one psyker gets the vision "spontaously". He then concentrates on the issue, and when it results anything
picks up the phone.
Clairvoyance is hazy, all right. But when a sufficient number of psykers concentrate on the issue, the collated
data is accurate enough. And since the 35% of the population is psionic, it is really hard to beleive that the
Altess collectively dissmiss such warnings.

Adios
KLM

[rat_bastard]

Collecting on the Central alliance would be child's play for Naruni, just take orbital space of any debtor planets and drop kinetic weapons on military and population centers until they pay up. The Central Alliance has nothing that could hold up against a collection fleet and the Naruni would not need to risk anyone to accomplish that.

Wrong. The Altess protect the Central Alliance, and they own a significant portion of Naruni stock.

which means they will protect the alliance, it does not mean they will let individual planets who make stupid deals get away with their own stupidity.

[Anthar]

I wonder how large a force the Golgans will bring to bear against the Altess. They only have 50,000 ships (DMB: 13 pg 51) and 5,000 of them are the new Synor battleship. The only real threat is the Sylnors as the Bindas cruiser can be taken out with just one or two shots from any cruiser class weapon and I would guess that a large majority of their fleet would have to be held back in order to keep their reconquered systems in line and watch for any TGE or Naruni retaliation. DMB: 13 states that the entire Armoria fleet numbers 2,500 ships with the majority being stationed at Altess Prime where they spend their time orbiting and training. The second largest deployment is to the planet Ramis and the rest are spread around Altess space. Novus IX is a training ground with a small mention in the CCW section that they have tens of billions of robotic defenders stored there. The Armoria will not be as crippled as everyone seems to think and add to that the CCW forces which include a Protector, 4 Packmasters, 10 Warsheilds, and 30 Scimitars that are just sitting on the edge of Altess space near the homeworld just waiting to give assistance then they are not all that vulnerable with the dissappearance of Noxus IX.

Edit: I've noticed that the "Auntins" are suggested as escort ships for the Bindas but are not stated out. (see pg 51 first column second pragraph or DMB: 13)

2nd Edit: DMB: 5 also states that they have enough weapons/equipment stockpiled to restock the Armoria six times over and assuming that this is all being stored at Novus IX then they won't be loosing very many active assets with the planet's disappearance.

3rd Edit: 30% of 2,500 ships are capital ships which means that there are 750 capital ships in the Armoria and given that their equipment is a mix of their own tech and Naruni tech then I would think that they might have a few Commodity-Class Naruni Super Cruisers as well as their own Battlecruisers. Plus their sub-capital ships tend to puch above their weight

4th Edit: You'll notice that the Golgan Command ship is the only ship that carries the Zebuloid piloted fighters.