What makes rifts hard to get other people to play.....

[popscythe]

it is cludgy and takes too long

Interesting. Are there any systems you'd compare it to that take less time or are more functional? My group runs Rifts combat in much the same time (or less, with higher quality players) that we ran 3.5/PF combat, but Rifts combat has far more options, better distance scaling for large scale/vehicular combat and is far less grid-dependent.

[jaymz]

it is cludgy and takes too long

Interesting. Are there any systems you'd compare it to that take less time or are more functional? My group runs Rifts combat in much the same time (or less, with higher quality players) that we ran 3.5/PF combat, but Rifts combat has far more options, better distance scaling for large scale/vehicular combat and is far less grid-dependent.

Silcore is much quicker as is Mekton Zeta version of Interlock, niethr of which require a grid for play but has it as an option.

Now this is for combat. They lack in other areas in comparison to Palladium but all games have issues in certain areas. To me Palladium is an excellent story telling and very small scale combat oriented game. ONce you get beyond a couple of players versus a couple of enemies to me the combat system starts to fall apart. The story telling aspect maintains its excellence throughout imo opinion though.

I refuse to compare Rifts/Palladium to any d20 game because to me they each have thier strengths and each have thier weaknesses but time wise take the same amount to do much of anything.

I cannot agre about the distance scaling however as anythign beyond a certain distance is 8+ to be hit. Be it an infantry guy firing his rifle or a tank firing its main gun. That is not scaling as I see it. NOt to mention the heavy vehicle weapons, at least to me, are nuetured in their ranges to start with.

Personally I actually have less issues with the rules themselves and MUCH more issue with the stats given to vehicles and weapons so I am not in the majority of many here.

[jaymz]

Thats funny I had 5 players fighting 5 demons in d&d that took over 2 hours after everyone was finished summoning the 5 million minions they could summon and then the fact that the players had trouble actually rolling the dice well. Personally passive systems like d&d bore the hell out of me. I always use active defense rolls with dr armor in d&d with is an "official" house rule just to make it interesting.

The game is as quick as you make it. Reduced numbers = quicker combat. Every game has to be scaled right or it can bog down.

90 minutes, 2 hours, still too long in my books either way But as I already said to me Palladium is an excellent story telling game and a good very small scale combat game but as the combats get bigger and more grand the combat system will bog it down. The sotry telling elements are good no matter the scale which is why I LIEK palladium so much. Ijust do thigns to quicken combat for my games is all.

[popscythe]

because every player who changes his PC or plays out of cliche is punished for his style.

Hahahaha! That, my new friend, is hilarious. The proverbial frog has been leaped into the kingdom of outwardly implied slippery slopes.

You "argument" like a firstclass Fanboy.

Good talking to you! I feel we've accomplished a lot here.

[Kalidor]

You need to make sure you post everyday, Pop. I get worried if I don't see you posting that you must have been banned.

[popscythe]

You need to make sure you post everyday, Pop. I get worried if I don't see you posting that you must have been banned.

Don't worry brother, I'll be here unless there's two or three more "help me metagame" threads a day. In that event, you can find me frozen in carbonite in someone's palace in a desert somewhere.

Make the game yours or go away. Welcome to reality.

I prefer to say "Read and understand the rules or be incorrect and worse, inefficient.".

[Mack]

There is no right way, or wrong way, to play Rifts. As long as the players at the table enjoy themselves, nothing else matters.

[random_username]

PEN AND PAPER RPG vs MMORPG/Video Game RPG:

RPGs tend to excel in:

Player Characters:
- custom classes, races, gear, etc. if GM approved
- larger then character gear options: vehicles, power armor, robot vehicles, etc.

Gameplay:
- improvised often comical tactical options. Example: KO/Stun werebeast then wield body as a club vs second werebeast until both are dead. AKA How a juicer/strongman/power armor pilot kills a werebeast.
- original content and variations known only to GM
- different GM = completely different approach, theme, etc. for the game
- GM adapts to challenge players
- house rules to correct exploits or unsatisfactory content
- occasional permanent death and rare killing of entire group grudgingly add challenge to the game
- having access to RPG based video game allows for play-testing of character designs that can then be refined for character in PnP campaigns

Social:
- hanging out with friends
- inevitable comedic antics


MMORPGs tend to excel in areas that RPGs fall behind in.

Player Characters:
- step-by-step point-and-click easy character creation
- numerous character configurations
- seemingly unlimited gear possibilities: static, random, limited selectable modifications
- numerous ready-made and often repeatable quests
- NPC popularity considerations (group factions, etc.)
- if based on actual RPG then RPG enthusiasts with have greater insight into the MMO

Gameplay:
- solitary, with group options (PC and NPC)
- can still group with real-life friends when they log on
- instant access
- semi-static world
- numerous quests that are often repeatable.
- unlockable or level restricted options
- at least some basic strategy is vital to survival

Social:
- no direct personal conflicts with GM
- very few if any problems with other players/PCs unless specifically choosing to activate PvP options
- in-game chat options including "off"
- usually VOIP options both in-game and as add-ons

Location:
- does not require taking over someone's living room, family room, den, etc. for hours at a time

[popscythe]

PEN AND PAPER RPG vs MMORPG/Video Game RPG:

Interesting opinions there.

[TechnoGothic]

Honestly most of the PB dislike is simple. Bad Press from a few RPGers who were too lazy to read the corebook completely before trying to play the game.

Trust me. I have seen the Same remarks for 15 years online from the people who dislike Rifts. They blame the system or the rules. But the reality is the players/GM bought the corebook. Created characters. Then they did not know any of rules while playing, so had to flip while playing for rules. Your suppose to read the rules of the game before you play. Not during. Then the player/Gm would complain how things were different from D&D/AD&D. Different Game, Different System. Then the Third and final reason they will throw out is Game Balance issues.

I have and will play many different systems/games. I will always try to get new players to try RIFTS if they wish to stay in the group. I tell them they must understand it before they make a judgement about it. And I usually prove to them the game and system is better overall than they thought and most come to love the system quickly. They just needed a GM who understood the rules and had read the rules before running a game.

[jaymz]

Very true Techno, on all three points.

I always failed to see how the "game balance" was a problem. It never was too me or anyone else that I had played Rifts with, then d20nD came out and suddenly everyone and there borther and cousin and sister and aunt and....well you get the idea, looked at rifts and said, it's too unblanced, it's not fair that you get spells and stuff while I get a rifle, or how come I can;t havepowers as a CS Gutn while you get Juicer powers, it;'s not fair, you;re too powerful I'm too weak...I say to them BITE ME, deal with it, that's part of the draw of the game to me. I don;t wnat my guy to be essentially the EXACT same power level of every OTHER guy in the group. What is the point to that?

[popscythe]

Honestly most of the PB dislike is simple. Bad Press from a few RPGers who were too lazy to read the corebook completely before trying to play the game.

Trust me. I have seen the Same remarks for 15 years online from the people who dislike Rifts. They blame the system or the rules. But the reality is the players/GM bought the corebook. Created characters. Then they did not know any of rules while playing, so had to flip while playing for rules. Your suppose to read the rules of the game before you play. Not during. Then the player/Gm would complain how things were different from D&D/AD&D. Different Game, Different System. Then the Third and final reason they will throw out is Game Balance issues.

I have and will play many different systems/games. I will always try to get new players to try RIFTS if they wish to stay in the group. I tell them they must understand it before they make a judgement about it. And I usually prove to them the game and system is better overall than they thought and most come to love the system quickly. They just needed a GM who understood the rules and had read the rules before running a game.

Bravo! I agree completely. Everyone I've actually played Rifts with has been pleasantly surprised with how the game turned out and excited to play more, but I've talked to an endless stream of "experts" who "played Rifts back in the day" ("What's the acronym RIFTS stand for by the way?" I heard that game has "power creep!" "Man isn't there some damage in that game that will like blow everyone up instantly? Why even play if you just get killed by a Mech in two seconds?") and think that it sucks. Lo and behold, they were very, very marginally educated on the subject. How arrogant of me to teach them to play and thereby enjoy a great game!

I don;t wnat my guy to be essentially the EXACT same power level of every OTHER guy in the group. What is the point to that?

Exactly. Forced party dynamic is bad enough, but someone decided one day that forced party balance was imperative and forced party dynamic became a given! Sigh. I think it comes from a place of roll players who's main interest is in being "the best" instead of "playing a character".

[jaymz]

I don;t wnat my guy to be essentially the EXACT same power level of every OTHER guy in the group. What is the point to that?

Exactly. Forced party dynamic is bad enough, but someone decided one day that forced party balance was imperative and forced party dynamic became a given! Sigh. I think it comes from a place of roll players who's main interest is in being "the best" instead of "playing a character".

What is funny is that I actually treid to get a d20 Rifts game going (no worries NMI no coversion going on here ). My friedn a so called Palladium expert (and he does know it very well) swore up and down that it couldn't be done and that this is a problem and this is a problem and that over ther eis a problem and you have to assigne challenge rating and balance this and that out....

My reponse...just do this, this and this (solved his apparent problems) and why does it have to be balanced? Rifts isn;t balanced in such a way so why in hell woudl I do it in d20 that way?

NOTE - I was going to do said Rifts d20 game because the only players I could get to play (aside form teh so called buddy who was the so called Palladium expert) wanted nothign to do withteh palladium system. Thankfully the game never got set up and saved me a lot of time and work (though I porved Rifst COULD be done effectively in d20)

[Sureshot]

Honestly most of the PB dislike is simple. Bad Press from a few RPGers who were too lazy to read the corebook completely before trying to play the game.

Oh please spare me this universe sized cop-out. I read every Rifts book from beginning to end. As most gamers I play with. Saying that the complpaints about the game come from lack of reading is not only covering one eyes, ear or mouth but also spray painting the rose colored glasses black. Way to insult everyone who has issues about this site and every other rpg site. This "logic" and I use the term lightly in this case about blaming the person not the game needs to stop. Most of the rules are very useable. Quite a few are clunky and contraditory. No matter how many times I read them or ananlyze. I have said it befire and I will say it again this needs to stop. Or those who keep putting the blame on their fellow gamer about any provlem with the rules will find themselves eventually universally shunned by the more moderate amd bmore level headed members of this site.

Trust me. I have seen the Same remarks for 15 years online from the people who dislike Rifts. They blame the system or the rules. But the reality is the players/GM bought the corebook. Created characters. Then they did not know any of rules while playing, so had to flip while playing for rules. Your suppose to read the rules of the game before you play. Not during. Then the player/Gm would complain how things were different from D&D/AD&D. Different Game, Different System. Then the Third and final reason they will throw out is Game Balance issues.

This makes no sense at all. How can you accuse players of not reading the game yet at the same time say they make characters in the same sentence. I'm assuming that to make characters one has to read the books. So your statement to me is very contradictory. I have yet to meet any player or GM who does not read the rules. They may not memorize everything yet they have read the rules. Both players and GM who do not read the rules come off lookin very oolish imo. Espcially the GM. As for compariing the PB rules to ther rpgs I always make sure to tell others that PB is not D&D and that it will be different before the game begins. To avoid your above scenario from happening. I do not find that a valid compliant. As we are playing rpg XYZ not D&D of coure it is going to be different. As for game balance I consider it a valid complpaint. Sure I do not want to have every class similar to each other yet too may thing in Rifts were thrown in for the "woud it be cool if he game had this" type of mentality as opposed to it actually working with the game. The trick with Rits is too be able to say no. If you allow everything from all sources you get an unstoppabe group. It becomes a nightmare imo

I have and will play many different systems/games. I will always try to get new players to try RIFTS if they wish to stay in the group. I tell them they must understand it before they make a judgement about it. And I usually prove to them the game and system is better overall than they thought and most come to love the system quickly. They just needed a GM who understood the rules and had read the rules before running a game.

This can be said of every game. Well except for Fatal. No matter how good the DM is nothing can save that game. I also mention to amy new players that the gaming group tries other things and that while we may try other ga,es at a later date.

[Balabanto]

The low lv's are a problem, you dont start getting amazing or powerfull stuff to pretty high lv's , now from a Roleplaying perspective so what , but if you want some masterfull mutant or powerfull mage, you will be disapointed if your GM doesnt move advancment along pretty quick for at least awhile ....if all the players are into it you shouldnt take 4 years to get to lv 10 or 12

We've been playing on and off for 10 years. The highest level character is a 7. And you know, mages are pretty tough as long as you let them learn spells. That's not really a problem.

[popscythe]

Oh please spare me this universe sized cop-out.

I think the sparing should be located on the other proverbial foot, my friend. Yet again you mention how clunky and contradictory the rules are without any substantiation, essentially engaging in exactly what you've accused this other poster of. You've even resorted to threatening excommunication from gaming because someone understands and runs rules fluidly (and then mentioned it) that you have some mysterious issue with, despite having read them from end to end. You go on to accuse valid points of "not making sense" and other sophistry... I simply don't understand what is so horrific about Rifts that you are so sure that the rules are at fault due to them not being popular with the vocal minority on "this and other rpg sites" and not at worst a matter of taste and most likely a matter of defamation and poor marketing, combined with a less attentive and more willing to complain about trivialities of doomsay about opinions rpg market.

Well except for Fatal.

And the Fatal Law of RPG arguments comes into play again. Sigh.

[Zer0 Kay]

Someone has probably already said it but... I think that there is too much choice for the new player. That is why I always limit new players to creating a character out of the main book. All of us veteran players aren't inundated with the choices because we were introduced to them gradually. So the way I do it with my players is when we are going into an area that uses a different book I allow them to browse through it. If they want to play a different class their old character has to die and the kind of death determines how they can make a new character.

[Sureshot]

I think the sparing should be located on the other proverbial foot, my friend. Yet again you mention how clunky and contradictory the rules are without any substantiation, essentially engaging in exactly what you've accused this other poster of. You've even resorted to threatening excommunication from gaming because someone understands and runs rules fluidly (and then mentioned it) that you have some mysterious issue with, despite having read them from end to end. You go on to accuse valid points of "not making sense" and other sophistry... I.

You can deny and pretend that their are no problems with the rules all you want. It won't make them go away. Other posters have shown that to be so and you have ignored all examples sent your way. I see no reason to waste my time by doing so. As for "threatening excommunication" keep putting words in my mouth. When your basic defence for the system is to accuse gamers of being unable to read and not intelligent enough to understand the system. Or that those who have problems are not trying hard enough and should either not be running PB games or playing in them. Somehow I just cannot see anyone wanting to discuss things with your or listen to what you have to say. Just think about it for a second. Let it sink in then tell me that is not true.

I simply don't understand what is so horrific about Rifts that you are so sure that the rules are at fault due to them not being popular with the vocal minority on "this and other rpg sites" and not at worst a matter of taste and most likely a matter of defamation and poor marketing, combined with a less attentive and more willing to complain about trivialities of doomsay about opinions rpg market.

It just anything with you is it. Some of the above makes no sense imo. Somehow myself and others by want to discuss and point out the bad part about rifts we are somehow participating in the defamation of Rifts. and you lost me with "complain about trivialities of doomsay about opinions rpg market". If PB would make an honest effort to fix teir rules I can see them becoming very popular again. Since they want to keep it as is while I can respect that the system will never reach the popularity that it had in the 80s and ealy 90s. Of course I fully expect you to blame D&D, White Wolf, the lack of intelligence and reading ability of rpg fans as the cause of the problem rather than the rules. More often than not you across as insulting a large number of members on this board and other forums. Once again can you see how that is not going to get any postive commentary about it.

And the Fatal Law of RPG arguments comes into play again. Sigh.

You obviously have never had the displeasure of looking through FATAL to respond like that. Their is nothing at all good about the game nothing. I read a discussion on another board where a poster pointed out that the game had elements of rape init and one of the developers had a very cavaliar attiude about it. I can understand and respect you being the eternal optimist with any rpg but fatal is like trying to pet a rabid dog and hoping he does nto bite you

[jaymz]

You can deny and pretend that their are no problems with the rules all you want. It won't make them go away. Other posters have shown that to be so and you have ignored all examples sent your way. I see no reason to waste my time by doing so. As for "threatening excommunication" keep putting words in my mouth. When your basic defence for the system is to accuse gamers of being unable to read and not intelligent enough to understand the system. Or that those who have problems are not trying hard enough and should either not be running PB games or playing in them. Somehow I just cannot see anyone wanting to discuss things with your or listen to what you have to say. Just think about it for a second. Let it sink in then tell me that is not true.

No offens sureshot but you saying he is wrong is no more accurate that him saying that you are wrong.

Fact is there are people who can't stand the rules as is at all (Rallan and the likes), there are people who have no issues at all with the rules as is (Pop et al) and then there are those who have some issues but also like the rules for the most part (like me ).

Arguing between yourselves is rather pointless as neither of you will agree with the other so why not just dropit a move on?


My personal opinion as stated before has alot to do with the bad word of mought the game has gotten more than any thign else and yes much of this bad word of mouth is in fact ignorance and misinformation. I know, I have seen it first hand many times. The vast majority of peopel I have dealt with who brought up these wild claims about Rifts and Palladium were pleasantly surprised when I woudl refute them with facts versus what thier buddy had told them about the game. That to me is the biggest issue of them all.

[Sureshot]

No offens sureshot but you saying he is wrong is no more accurate that him saying that you are wrong.
.

I admit to being a little defensive yet the difference is that I do not approach someone who has a problem with the rules by automatically assuming that either they have not read the books or make a comment about their intelligence. Or that they do not try to work with the rules. I have had a few verbal sparring matches with others who like the rules and no one has used the above. I do not automatically assume that someone who likes the rules is either a PB zombie fanboy. I just do not see the need for that. It does not encourage a debate. It just makes me want to not listen to the poster. To be honest I am not the only one most likely to feel that way

Fact is there are people who can't stand the rules as is at all (Rallan and the likes), there are people who have no issues at all with the rules as is (Pop et al) and then there are those who have some issues but also like the rules for the most part (like me ).

Next to Wotc I think this is the only rpg company that has done the above. Myself I also fall into the third category

Arguing between yourselves is rather pointless as neither of you will agree with the other so why not just dropit a move on?

I actually agree with some of the things he has posted. I do not agree with how he defends the system. Too confrontational imo. As I said why would you listen to someone who already has made up his mind you are wrong from the start.

My personal opinion as stated before has alot to do with the bad word of mought the game has gotten more than any thign else and yes much of this bad word of mouth is in fact ignorance and misinformation. I know, I have seen it first hand many times. The vast majority of peopel I have dealt with who brought up these wild claims about Rifts and Palladium were pleasantly surprised when I woudl refute them with facts versus what thier buddy had told them about the game. That to me is the biggest issue of them all.

I have had some similar experiences and refuted some of the same things said about the system. Every hobby imo has their share of people who do that. You can either ignore them or try to explain to them that they are wrong. Thankfully the experices have been very minor.

[jaymz]

No offens sureshot but you saying he is wrong is no more accurate that him saying that you are wrong.
.

I admit to being a little defensive yet the difference is that I do not approach someone who has a problem with the rules by automatically assuming that either they have not read the books or make a comment about their intelligence. Or that they do not try to work with the rules. I have had a few verbal sparring matches with others who like the rules and no one has used the above. I do not automatically assume that someone who likes the rules is either a PB zombie fanboy. I just do not see the need for that. It does not encourage a debate. It just makes me want to not listen to the poster. To be honest I am not the only one most likely to feel that way

Oh I have no doubt you are and I don;t typically agree with him often

Fact is there are people who can't stand the rules as is at all (Rallan and the likes), there are people who have no issues at all with the rules as is (Pop et al) and then there are those who have some issues but also like the rules for the most part (like me ).

Next to Wotc I think this is the only rpg company that has done the above. Myself I also fall into the third category

You;d be surprised of a few other games I have had people have similar reactions to....

Arguing between yourselves is rather pointless as neither of you will agree with the other so why not just dropit a move on?

I actually agree with some of the things he has posted. I do not agree with how he defends the system. Too confrontational imo. As I said why would you listen to someone who already has made up his mind you are wrong from the start.

I was referrinf mostly to this particualr argument was all... I shoudl have been more clear.

My personal opinion as stated before has alot to do with the bad word of mought the game has gotten more than any thign else and yes much of this bad word of mouth is in fact ignorance and misinformation. I know, I have seen it first hand many times. The vast majority of peopel I have dealt with who brought up these wild claims about Rifts and Palladium were pleasantly surprised when I woudl refute them with facts versus what thier buddy had told them about the game. That to me is the biggest issue of them all.

I have had some similar experiences and refuted some of the same things said about the system. Every hobby imo has their share of people who do that. You can either ignore them or try to explain to them that they are wrong. Thankfully the experices have been very minor.

[/quote]

you are very lucky. I deal with all the time and even by some who play Palladiums games. How sad is THAT?

[Sureshot]

you are very lucky. I deal with all the time and even by some who play Palladiums games. How sad is THAT?

The irony here is that those who have issues with the rules the most are those who play the games the most. I am blessed with a group who likes playing different types of rpgs and when it comes to Rifts or PB games in general they are the ones that complain the most about the rules.

[jaymz]

you are very lucky. I deal with all the time and even by some who play Palladiums games. How sad is THAT?

The irony here is that those who have issues with the rules the most are those who play the games the most. I am blessed with a group who likes playing different types of rpgs and when it comes to Rifts or PB games in general they are the ones that complain the most about the rules.

That makes two of us then. Its hte old group I played with the most that introduced me to Shadowrun, Fend Shui and Mekton to have in my arsenal along iwth Palladium and WEG SWRPG. Each one vastly different but it was that group that got me ot look and see other games and take them as they were. Unfortunately they vehemently refused to play anything palladium for much te same thing, they had a preconception oif it and nothign I could do convinced them otherwise sadly. Palladium was one thign I had to play with another group and they whioned about it even more and theywere playing it

[Sureshot]

I just noticed your from Ontario. Cool another Canadian on the boards. I thinik with every game you will always have some who have issues about the rules. I just think PB has a larger share of it.

[jaymz]

That depends, ask some older D&D players about 4th ed

Yeah I am Canuckian...JUST started in a Nightspawn game last night. Hopefully it'll last. (sorry refuse to call it bane)

[Zer0 Kay]

That depends, ask some older D&D players about 4th ed

I have been playing D&D since 1980 and no matter what anyone says, '4th ed.' is not D&D any longer, so that doesn't count

Dang skippy. 3.x and 4 are Diablo on paper:nh:. There is nothing bad with simplifying the game so much but it just isn't what it was. I really didn't like how they had one add in a magazine claiming "The first and still the best." I was looking at that and thinking Hasbro was not the first to make RPGs, nor was WotC. I thought it should have said "We bought the first and now we're even easier than a street walker... but its legal, so you must be in Nevada."

[Zer0 Kay]

That depends, ask some older D&D players about 4th ed

Yeah I am Canuckian...JUST started in a Nightspawn game last night. Hopefully it'll last. (sorry refuse to call it bane)

Your awesome, me too. I was so pissed at McFarlane (even though I like his female figures) I made sure Kevin knew about the last line of Spawn figures he was going to release. The bad guys were called "The Mechanoids". Now I kinda... ever so slightly, feel bad because he hasn't released another figure line for Spawn.

[jaymz]

Sureshot - See my point about D&D 4th ed?

[Sureshot]

Sureshot - See my point about D&D 4th ed?

Yeah. I tend to ignoreD&D fans that say version abc of D&D is the best screw the rest.Though with 4E you get the same ignorance that you get about Rift. Even more so imo

[Thinyser]

You can deny and pretend that their are no problems with the rules all you want. It won't make them go away. Other posters have shown that to be so and you have ignored all examples sent your way. I see no reason to waste my time by doing so. As for "threatening excommunication" keep putting words in my mouth. When your basic defence for the system is to accuse gamers of being unable to read and not intelligent enough to understand the system. Or that those who have problems are not trying hard enough and should either not be running PB games or playing in them. Somehow I just cannot see anyone wanting to discuss things with your or listen to what you have to say. Just think about it for a second. Let it sink in then tell me that is not true.

No offens sureshot but you saying he is wrong is no more accurate that him saying that you are wrong.

Fact is there are people who can't stand the rules as is at all (Rallan and the likes), there are people who have no issues at all with the rules as is (Pop et al) and then there are those who have some issues but also like the rules for the most part (like me ).

Arguing between yourselves is rather pointless as neither of you will agree with the other so why not just dropit a move on?


My personal opinion as stated before has alot to do with the bad word of mought the game has gotten more than any thign else and yes much of this bad word of mouth is in fact ignorance and misinformation. I know, I have seen it first hand many times. The vast majority of peopel I have dealt with who brought up these wild claims about Rifts and Palladium were pleasantly surprised when I woudl refute them with facts versus what thier buddy had told them about the game. That to me is the biggest issue of them all.

Actually its a fact that there are things that as written are not clear enough and can be interpreted in more than one way and/or are simply unplayable as written (AKA broken). Examples can be given time and again. Truely this is one thing in Rifts that cannot be debated.

For some, this is a deal breaker for Rifts. For most on these forums (even those that constantly complain about it) it is simply an annoyance (major for some minor for others) that detracts from the epic world that the game is set in.

[jaymz]

You can deny and pretend that their are no problems with the rules all you want. It won't make them go away. Other posters have shown that to be so and you have ignored all examples sent your way. I see no reason to waste my time by doing so. As for "threatening excommunication" keep putting words in my mouth. When your basic defence for the system is to accuse gamers of being unable to read and not intelligent enough to understand the system. Or that those who have problems are not trying hard enough and should either not be running PB games or playing in them. Somehow I just cannot see anyone wanting to discuss things with your or listen to what you have to say. Just think about it for a second. Let it sink in then tell me that is not true.

No offens sureshot but you saying he is wrong is no more accurate that him saying that you are wrong.

Fact is there are people who can't stand the rules as is at all (Rallan and the likes), there are people who have no issues at all with the rules as is (Pop et al) and then there are those who have some issues but also like the rules for the most part (like me ).

Arguing between yourselves is rather pointless as neither of you will agree with the other so why not just dropit a move on?


My personal opinion as stated before has alot to do with the bad word of mought the game has gotten more than any thign else and yes much of this bad word of mouth is in fact ignorance and misinformation. I know, I have seen it first hand many times. The vast majority of peopel I have dealt with who brought up these wild claims about Rifts and Palladium were pleasantly surprised when I woudl refute them with facts versus what thier buddy had told them about the game. That to me is the biggest issue of them all.

Actually its a fact that there are things that as written are not clear enough and can be interpreted in more than one way and/or are simply unplayable as written (AKA broken). Examples can be given time and again. Truely this is one thing in Rifts that cannot be debated.

For some, this is a deal breaker for Rifts. For most on these forums (even those that constantly complain about it) it is simply an annoyance (major for some minor for others) that detracts from the epic world that the game is set in.

I can name one person who won't agree with your facts though Thin and gauranteeed he isn;t alone. I agree with you but unfortunately hte FACT it is it is different for everyone so there is no FACT to prove the rules are as we think they are or as anyone else think they are. Some have zero problems with them and to them that is a FACT that they are good as is, we see them as having problems so to us that is a FACT that there are problems. It's the manner in which these issues or non-issues are discussed that seem to create the most hostility and aggresive/defensive behavior by so many.

[jaymz]

Sureshot - See my point about D&D 4th ed?

Yeah. I tend to ignoreD&D fans that say version abc of D&D is the best screw the rest.Though with 4E you get the same ignorance that you get about Rift. Even more so imo

NOt for me, I got a preview of 4th through SW Saga edition and i dispised it and still do

[Sureshot]

NOt for me, I got a preview of 4th through SW Saga edition and i dispised it and still do

It is not so much gamers who dislike 4E so much gamers who either have not played let alone read the books. Having played in a short SWSE game you do get exposed to some elements of 4E. So I'm not counting you in the first part of the post.

[jaymz]

NOt for me, I got a preview of 4th through SW Saga edition and i dispised it and still do

It is not so much gamers who dislike 4E so much gamers who either have not played let alone read the books. Having played in a short SWSE game you do get exposed to some elements of 4E. So I'm not counting you in the first part of the post.

Yeah they are very much like those who "hate" palladium games..... uninformed and ignorant of the reality. Whatever that may be.

[Thinyser]

You can deny and pretend that their are no problems with the rules all you want. It won't make them go away. Other posters have shown that to be so and you have ignored all examples sent your way. I see no reason to waste my time by doing so. As for "threatening excommunication" keep putting words in my mouth. When your basic defence for the system is to accuse gamers of being unable to read and not intelligent enough to understand the system. Or that those who have problems are not trying hard enough and should either not be running PB games or playing in them. Somehow I just cannot see anyone wanting to discuss things with your or listen to what you have to say. Just think about it for a second. Let it sink in then tell me that is not true.

No offens sureshot but you saying he is wrong is no more accurate that him saying that you are wrong.

Fact is there are people who can't stand the rules as is at all (Rallan and the likes), there are people who have no issues at all with the rules as is (Pop et al) and then there are those who have some issues but also like the rules for the most part (like me ).

Arguing between yourselves is rather pointless as neither of you will agree with the other so why not just dropit a move on?


My personal opinion as stated before has alot to do with the bad word of mought the game has gotten more than any thign else and yes much of this bad word of mouth is in fact ignorance and misinformation. I know, I have seen it first hand many times. The vast majority of peopel I have dealt with who brought up these wild claims about Rifts and Palladium were pleasantly surprised when I woudl refute them with facts versus what thier buddy had told them about the game. That to me is the biggest issue of them all.

Actually its a fact that there are things that as written are not clear enough and can be interpreted in more than one way and/or are simply unplayable as written (AKA broken). Examples can be given time and again. Truely this is one thing in Rifts that cannot be debated.

For some, this is a deal breaker for Rifts. For most on these forums (even those that constantly complain about it) it is simply an annoyance (major for some minor for others) that detracts from the epic world that the game is set in.

I can name one person who won't agree with your facts though Thin and gauranteeed he isn;t alone. I agree with you but unfortunately hte FACT it is it is different for everyone so there is no FACT to prove the rules are as we think they are or as anyone else think they are. Some have zero problems with them and to them that is a FACT that they are good as is, we see them as having problems so to us that is a FACT that there are problems. It's the manner in which these issues or non-issues are discussed that seem to create the most hostility and aggresive/defensive behavior by so many.

They only dont have issues with them because nobody has challenged THEIR interpretation.

Believe me I can prove that there are things in the rules that can be interpreted in at least 2 valid ways where neither interpretation conflicts with the rules as written but are different from, and conflict with, each other. Therefore its a FACT that some rules are not clear enough to have a single interpretation for every player.

[jaymz]

Thin - Again I myself agree with you but there are some who don't see the multiple interpretations as you or I do whether you challenge them or not sicne they just don't see how it can be interpreted more than one way. You declaring it as a fact only makesit a fact to peopel like you or me as we can see the multiple interpretations whereas those who cannot will claim the fact is there is only one interpretation no matter how many examples you give. If they can't see it or do not agree with you or my multiple interpretations then they won;t see your or my facts as facts but as misinterpretation and nothing more while they will say it is fact that we are misinterpreting the rules.

Facts are only facts to those who can see the reason and explaination behind them. That is another reason why Rifts has a love hate in the RPG commmunity. So many claim one thing and say the other side is wrong when in fact they both are and can be right.

[popscythe]

It is not so much gamers who dislike 4E so much gamers who either have not played let alone read the books. Having played in a short SWSE game you do get exposed to some elements of 4E. So I'm not counting you in the first part of the post.

It is not so much gamers who dislike Rifts so much gamers who either have not played let alone read the books and understood them, and then make inaccurate statements about the system online. Having played in a short Rifts game you do get exposed to some elements of Rifts. So I'm not counting you in the first part of the post.

Therefore its a FACT that some rules are not clear enough to have a single interpretation for every player.

Like what?

[Dustin Fireblade]

Therefore its a FACT that some rules are not clear enough to have a single interpretation for every player.

Like what?

Look for old posts about the C-12 laser rifle, or the teleportation thread, those are the two biggest and longest running that I can think of.

[Thinyser]

Thin - Again I myself agree with you but there are some who don't see the multiple interpretations as you or I do whether you challenge them or not sicne they just don't see how it can be interpreted more than one way. You declaring it as a fact only makesit a fact to peopel like you or me as we can see the multiple interpretations whereas those who cannot will claim the fact is there is only one interpretation no matter how many examples you give. If they can't see it or do not agree with you or my multiple interpretations then they won;t see your or my facts as facts but as misinterpretation and nothing more while they will say it is fact that we are misinterpreting the rules.

Facts are only facts to those who can see the reason and explaination behind them. That is another reason why Rifts has a love hate in the RPG commmunity. So many claim one thing and say the other side is wrong when in fact they both are and can be right.

I hear what your saying but what I think you are missing is that facts are facts despite the deniers inability to recognize them as such.

-There is legtimate debate of the rules. This is proved true time and again here on the boards.
-Legitimate rules debate only arises because there are different ways to correctly interpret the same statments. (If it were simply one moron spouting balderdash I'd agree with Pop and pity their stupidity* but these are legitimate different interpretaitons that when looked at rationally and without our own prejudices can be seen to be correct by canon even if they dont agree with eachother.)
-These rules debates do cointian different interpretation by different people where both sides are correct and still adhearing to canon.
-Clear rules statements would only have one possible interpretation and would not foster legitimate debate where both sides can make interpretations that disagree with eachother yet adhere to canon.

Therefore, logically, it follows that since there is legitimate debate of the rules, and more than one correct interpretation of the rules, the rules must not be as clear as they could be.

Othewise we would not have rational, legitimate, debates about the rules.

If were always as clear as Pop seem to think it is the debates would not happen at all, let alone with the frequency and passion that they do, either that or they would all be a moron spouting balderdash which would not count as a legitimate debate.


Pop and whomever else can deny facts until death but they remain facts.

*I dont think this is a valid reaction unless its quite obvious that one side of the coin's argument has no validity (which is usually not the case). Which is why I fiind Pop so annoying. He seams to have this reaction to any that think that palladium has faults simply because he disagrees with this, despite the fact that it can be clearly demonstrated that Palladium does in fact have faults.

The whole "I dissagree Palladium has no faults and you must be stupid or canont understand the rules if you think otherwise" when its an obvious fact that there is debate on rules and that these debates are legit and not simply one moron spouting balderdash is assinine and in itself is not worth debate.

Thats my final post on the subject.

[popscythe]

Thats my final post on the subject.

And yet, without any specific examples. If these questions were really so cut and dried as "can be interpreted either way with equal ease" wouldn't it be fairly easy to just mention one?

Look for old posts about the C-12 laser rifle, or the teleportation thread, those are the two biggest and longest running that I can think of.

Looks like any question regarding the C-12 was sorted out in RUE.

If anyone can link me to "the" much discussed teleport thread, I'd be happy to read it, though I have not been able to find any one particularly heated debate about teleportation by searching for "teleport" and "teleportation" thus far.

I went ahead and reviewed the various methodologies of teleportation and do not see a specific issue that might arise without assumption or deliberate twisting on the player or GM's behalf.

[Kalidor]

This isn't really a 'contradiction' so much as its 'something stupid'. I'll be glad to suffer through your justification of it though

In 3rd Printing RUE there are 2 level 4 spells. One is impervious to fire. range is self or others up to 60 feet. Duration is 20 melees per level and PPE cost is 5. It makes you impervious to all fire and heat, including mega damage.

The other is resistant to fire. Range is self or others up to 60 feet. Duration is 20 melees per level and PPE cost is 6. Makes you take half damage from fire and heat, including mega damage... Yee ha?

[jaymz]

Thats my final post on the subject.

And yet, without any specific examples. If these questions were really so cut and dried as "can be interpreted either way with equal ease" wouldn't it be fairly easy to just mention one?

Look for old posts about the C-12 laser rifle, or the teleportation thread, those are the two biggest and longest running that I can think of.

Looks like any question regarding the C-12 was sorted out in RUE.

Looking...

If anyone can link me to "the" much discussed teleport thread, I'd be happy to read it, though I have not been able to find any one particularly heated debate about teleportation by searching for "teleport" and "teleportation" thus far.

Actually Pop there are plenty of rules debates on these boards alone by peopel who have played long enough to know andunderstand the rules that Thin shouldn;t have to give you a spcific example. I agree with im on this for hte most part and it is fact that there are debates. He and I just differ on the fact of there being a fault in teh game. To me debate of rules does notmake a fault it makes it interpretation thus makingit subjective not undeniably true. One mans interpretation a fact does not make. Whetehr there are two interpretations does not make it a fact that it has a fault. That was all I was trying to point out.

It typically is however misinformation that is the main culprit behind what so many accuse Palladium Games of. THAT is hte biggst problem of them all.

[jaymz]

This isn't really a 'contradiction' so much as its 'something stupid'. I'll be glad to suffer through your justification of it though

In 3rd Printing RUE there are 2 level 4 spells. One is impervious to fire. range is self or others up to 60 feet. Duration is 20 melees per level and PPE cost is 5. It makes you impervious to all fire and heat, including mega damage.

The other is resistant to fire. Range is self or others up to 60 feet. Duration is 20 melees per level and PPE cost is 6. Makes you take half damage from fire and heat, including mega damage... Yee ha?

I'll be the first to agree there are MANY stupid things that go on in Rifts Weapon Stats, MDC values and thigns like these two spells are just a snippet...but to me the game rules themselves are less of an issue than they are for others.

[popscythe]

Whetehr there are two interpretations does not make it a fact that it has a fault.

I have not read a single thread on this entire forum that contained two legitimate interpretations of the same rule. 100% of the time, the thread goes "How does this work?" (I didn't understand what the book says). Followed by "The way I do it in MY game is blank" (different from what the rules say). Followed by "The rules say this."

I would be very happy to help adjudicate any rules questions that anyone has, but I am not willing to stipulate that simply because someone is willing to argue the point that there must be two valid interpretations of a subject.

In 3rd Printing RUE there are 2 level 4 spells.

Uh... in mine there are not two fire-related level 4 invocations...

They're level 3 spells, and they do different things.

[jaymz]

Whetehr there are two interpretations does not make it a fact that it has a fault.

I have not read a single thread on this entire forum that contained two legitimate interpretations of the same rule. 100% of the time, the thread goes "How does this work?" (I didn't understand what the book says). Followed by "The way I do it in MY game is blank" (different from what the rules say). Followed by "The rules say this."

I would be very happy to help adjudicate any rules questions that anyone has, but I am not willing to stipulate that simply because someone is willing to argue the point that there must be two valid interpretations of a subject.

In 3rd Printing RUE there are 2 level 4 spells.

Uh... in mine there are not two fire-related level 4 invocations...

I think that was why he specified in the 3rd printing Pop. PB has a habit of not letting anyone knwo the diferences betwen printings if any are made.

[Kalidor]

Oops, let me Errata that post for the second printing:

This isn't really a 'contradiction' so much as its 'something stupid'. I'll be glad to suffer through your justification of it though

In 3rd Printing RUE there are 2 level 3 spells. One is impervious to fire. range is self or others up to 60 feet. Duration is 20 melees per level and PPE cost is 5. It makes you impervious to all fire and heat, including mega damage.

The other is resistant to fire. Range is self or others up to 60 feet. Duration is 20 melees per level and PPE cost is 6. Makes you take half damage from fire and heat, including mega damage... Yee ha?

[popscythe]

The other is resistant to fire. Range is self or others up to 60 feet. Duration is 20 melees per level and PPE cost is 6. Makes you take half damage from fire and heat, including mega damage... Yee ha?

You're wrong, my friend. They do different things.

[Kalidor]

Yeah, one lets you take no damage from MD fire for one point less than one that lets you bypass it completely.

[popscythe]

Yeah, one lets you take no damage from MD fire for one point less than one that lets you bypass it completely.

Nah, read the specific wording of both.

[jaymz]

The other is resistant to fire. Range is self or others up to 60 feet. Duration is 20 melees per level and PPE cost is 6. Makes you take half damage from fire and heat, including mega damage... Yee ha?

You're wrong, my friend. They do different things.

The point being Pop it is cheaper to use the better spell so why have the other? he stated flat out it wasn't a contradiction but just somehtig stupid and I happen to agree. 2 spells, the better one is cheaper to use and infinitely more effective. Why have both it makes no sense.