Rifts Earth and the return of NATO (Triax 2 spoilers within)

[dark brandon]

I already have ..

Most of them are nameless towns ..

For example the towns taken over threw out the Juicer Uprisings ..

Then we should agree to disagree, we've shared our arguments, and that being that, all is well.

[Lenwen]

I already have ..

Most of them are nameless towns ..

For example the towns taken over threw out the Juicer Uprisings ..

Then we should agree to disagree, we've shared our arguments, and that being that, all is well.

Sounds good I guess .. even tho canon proves my side 100% ..

[johnkretzer]

Why funny? Have you actually sat down and talked with someone who thinks CS is the greatest hope for humanity?

All over these boards...all the time it seems.

[DD The Shmey]

Sounds good I guess .. even tho canon proves my side 100% ..

Well not quite, was Iron Heart Armaments a nameless town (see last page of coalition navy sourcebook)?
however they had a good reason to take out IHA, they were a real threat to coalition security (see rifts merc pg 114)

Why funny? Have you actually sat down and talked with someone who thinks CS is the greatest hope for humanity?

Long live Emperor Prosek!

"To embrace the inhuman is to lose our humanity."
"To accept the alien is to lose our identity."
"To use magic is to forsake technology."
"We are human! We are the people of Earth! This is our world! Ours alone!"
(see Colition War Campaign pg9)

[DD The Shmey]

Going back to the original question
I think the existence of another possible heir to the great American Empire will come as a big surprise to the coalition leadership.
They will certainly envy the New Navy's technology, and I feel that the new navy's concerns for not contacting the Coalition
States earlier, for fear that ..."the CS would be too suspicious and also likely to demand that all the ships and technologies
of the New Navy by surrendered outright." pg 109 Rifts underseas were valid concerns.

But I don't think that the CS will make such demands, it would be... 'impolite' to do so, so soon after they were first acquainted.
Of course by 'impolite' I mean the CS realizes that they are in no position to demand outright surrender of a people who have been
independent for the last 300 years, and doing so would only be shooting themselves in the foot, diplomatically speaking of course.
No, no first they need to gather intelligence and assess the situation, then later they can start a propaganda campaign about how
they are the true heirs of the great American Empire and that the New Navy's technology belongs to the CS's by birthright.
... or at least this is one way things could play out ...
and if things do go this way that's when the existence of the Sea Titans will come into play, for now they really wouldn't care what
some seamen do half a world away, but if it it serves Chitowns goals the Sea Titans would make the perfect propaganda tool.
... but this is years down the road, first lets look at the near future.

... I would assert that the cooperation between the CS, NGR, and New Navy constitutes the beginnings of a powerful human North Atlantic military alliance.

Yes, the level of cooperation does seem too indicate that for the first time in Rifts Earth some kind of new NATO is feasible.
However I believe that any such alliance would, if it comes about, be a loose one for a number of reasons.
-Free Quebec will be hesitant to join a new alliance unless it is a loose one.
-Chitown will be suspicious of the New Navy, and... well... everybody. (see Triax pg18 bottom)
-Everyone fears giving up any of their own sovereignty, even if it's as simple as a mutual defense pact.
-Chitown is also used to being in charge, and will ultimately want to control any new alliance.
(I don't see them joining unless a set of conditions are met, like the CS gets a veto power or something.)
-Lord Splynncryth is likely going to try to sabotage the formation of any alliance among these powers

And then there are the cultural matters. Any solid alliance between the CS, New Navy, and NGR will lead towards an increasing amount of cultural exchange between its members. Policies like enforced illiteracy and state-sponsored xenophobia within the Coalition States will eventually be challenged, as will any acceptance of aliens and magic among the NGR or New Navy.

Cultural change takes time, and requires a lot more exposure then a simple alliance to induce it. I mean look at how long the United States had slavery, we weren't isolationists during that entire period. Also remember in the real world we live in the information age, but on rifts earth it's a lot more difficult to get news from far away places, and much less difficult for a government to control the flow of information within one's own country. And since most of the people in the CS don't even read, and I would guess most of them couldn't point out Germany on a map. I don't think that the exchange will make much change in the day to day goings on of any nation involved.

Finally

Will smaller nations such as the Sovietski and Free Quebec be drawn into joint military actions?

Free Quebec, a smaller nation? It's larger then the New Navy, not by much mind you, but it is larger.
New Navy population = 800,000 (Rifts Underseas pg108)
Free Quebec population = 1 million (Rifts Unlimited Ed pg21)

[Dustin Fireblade]

What about all the little towns/kingdoms from The Juicer Uprisings that the CS simply invaded ..

What about the Port town in Texas that one day woke up .. and suddenly they were escorted outta town or destroyed ..

I must have missed something in the JU book - the only town that came under CS control was Newtown, and that was something that they had agreed to in the beginning anyway. The fact that the humans were manipulated by super-advanced aliens wanting to take over the entire planet by using the CS as a stepping stone I'm sure didn't fuel any CS paranoid delusions or anything.

I'm also pretty sure that the port town in Texas you mention was a D-Bee stronghold - they got what they deserved!

Someone else mentioned New Kenora/IHA - the CS moved in and announced they are taking over. Most people stayed on and kept working for the CS. D-Bee's need not apply.

I seem to recall though in the description of the Operator OCC(?) that the CS will take over small towns by providing increased amounts of aid - basically making it so that the community is completely dependent on the CS.

[dark brandon]

Sounds good I guess .. even tho canon proves my side 100% ..

Here's the thing lenwen, you say "now you want to argue semantics", but in truth, there's a huge difference between a town or city-state with 10,000 people and a place like quebec or NGR that has millions. You can't handle a situation the same, one can be done with a small group of soldiers with probably no deaths, the other will take plenty of lives, money and time, and it's more beneficial to have a trade ally than it is to try and usurp them. You are free of course to think that way.

I've asked you to provide examples of your "they take over human city-states". I think Dustin and DD had good counter arguments.

I ask you to present an example of a large nation the CS has taken control over. One that required CS to go to actual war with. The only nation was Quebec, and that was because they were a CS state and succeeded.

The canon provides you with 100% examples for any small area that would not require any real effort to take over, or taking with minimal losses. It does not however support your side on anything that would take any real time, energy, manpower, effort or money, so with that, it does become an opinion of what may happen.

[TechnoGothic]

But it could work Zerebus.
Shore leaves outside of Oceana in other states. Leaving baby SeaTitans in their wake.
Lonestar would Welcome them...for experiments HAHAHAHAaa

[johnkretzer]

But it could work Zerebus.
Shore leaves outside of Oceana in other states. Leaving baby SeaTitans in their wake.
Lonestar would Welcome them...for experiments HAHAHAHAaa

Maybe they have already...it would explain the Janisarries.

[TechnoGothic]

But Janisarries are Unoffical so far.

[johnkretzer]

But Janisarries are Unoffical so far.

Maybe that is what they want you to think. Also it would explain them...that the Good Doctor got his hands on some...samples.

[glitterboy2098]

so it would be with the NGR and the CS. once the gargoyles are no longer a threat, the CS will be tossed away like a live grenade. doesn't matter that the CS will want to stay allied, the differences will be too great.

I disagree. Many nations still trade and work with a number of countries that have unscrupulous reputations in humanitarianism. Most immediate is china. We did not have a strong trade with Russia.

Any time money becomes involve, morality becomes a non-issue.

and china has a resource the Us cannot get elsewhere. cheap labor that is also highly enough trained to do technical jobs. once the labor ceases to be cheaper than hiring american workers, or another source of similar labort arises, china will be dropped too.


the Cs can't claim such though. the Cs is providing food and medical supplies to the NGR. the NGR's geography and technical capacity should be able to provide sufficent amounts of these themselves, self sufficently, so the onyl reason the NGR would be importing such is the fact the conflict with the gargoyles has rendered massive swaths of its most fertile farmlands into combat zones where the probability of a gargoyle or brodkil attack makes any attempt to farm these areas too dangerous to try. and with their thus limited agricultural capacity, what they can produce would be needed to supply their armed forces, leaving their people on a limited supply. probably just one step short of rationing.

once the gargoyles and brodkil are no longer a threat, the NGR can begin farming it's agricultural lands again, and tus the need to buy food and medicines from the CS is no longer there. trade would drop back to "luxury goods", which is not sufficent for a government to retain an alliance with an undesirable government. trade would still occur without the alliance or treaties...but without the NGR having ot have direct political ties to the CS.

[dark brandon]

and china has a resource the Us cannot get elsewhere. cheap labor that is also highly enough trained to do technical jobs. once the labor ceases to be cheaper than hiring american workers, or another source of similar labort arises, china will be dropped too.


the Cs can't claim such though. the Cs is providing food and medical supplies to the NGR. the NGR's geography and technical capacity should be able to provide sufficent amounts of these themselves, self sufficently, so the onyl reason the NGR would be importing such is the fact the conflict with the gargoyles has rendered massive swaths of its most fertile farmlands into combat zones where the probability of a gargoyle or brodkil attack makes any attempt to farm these areas too dangerous to try. and with their thus limited agricultural capacity, what they can produce would be needed to supply their armed forces, leaving their people on a limited supply. probably just one step short of rationing.

once the gargoyles and brodkil are no longer a threat, the NGR can begin farming it's agricultural lands again, and tus the need to buy food and medicines from the CS is no longer there. trade would drop back to "luxury goods", which is not sufficent for a government to retain an alliance with an undesirable government. trade would still occur without the alliance or treaties...but without the NGR having ot have direct political ties to the CS.

1) Will china/US ever reach that point?

2) That's not a bad take on cs/ngr really. Like the US/China...will it ever reach that point? Even with the gargs, we know in an "out of character' sense, that an even bigger battle is coming, one with brodkil involved.

3) One thing I think CS has that Triax may take time in getting is in the genetic department, which may/may not have some validity to it. IE: In todays world, I've heard of petre dish meat. It's not too hard to conceive that CS has this down pat (they do make talking dogs after all), and thus CS may need much less farm land for meat than NGR would.

4) The societies while different also are close. If NGR takes a turn for the worst (For example brodkil war) it's not too far that NGR would implement grand deportation again in order to ration foods. While a bit devious, and I think stupid, I'm sure the CS would limit the food they give NGR for this very reason. Not enough to starve NGR, but enough to put a big hurt on the dbee population (as of Triax 2, they are currently almost at that point now, with human refugees getting aid before dbees which is causing a big problem).

5) That is not to say that CS itself won't change. Nothing soon, but there is hints that CS is considering magic (Joseph as well as a small blurb in SoT in which the higher ups have considered trying to learn how to do the rifts defense system and move to the ruins of tolkeen). An example of change that could occur that is completely against their current fundamentals. IE: CS may allow human looking dbees to live. Especially those who don't have a perchance for magic (Dwarves) and maybe even the prettier ones (Elves).

[dark brandon]

City states are not nations, and Quebec was a state in the CS state that seceded.

City-states can be nations, as long as the people feel a shared-sense of identity.

true, but what I was meaning was more along the lines of populations and size. They can be nations, but total land mass and population of most of the city states in Rifts that were being discussed were quite small, both in terms of land mass and population.

[Metathiax]

the NGR, New Navy, and Free Quebec are all much more amaible in that regard. to them, Dbees might not be considered citizens, but the policy is largely "out of sight, out of mind", nor racial cleansing. and all three recognize the importance of educating their people, although the exact level of education might differ.

Not completely true. Free Quebec is just as xenophobic and paranoid as the CS in regards to dbees and such wb 22, pg 33).

Actually, Free Quebec is more xenophobic than then Coalition. Case in point, Free Quebec refuses to call "Psi Hounds" by their colloquial name "Dog Boy" as it makes them too "Human." And in fact, Free Quebec refuses to accept Dog Boys into their armies because of their fanatical Humans Only views. If the New German Republic is willing to be buddy-buddy with Free Quebec, I see no problem with them solidifying a friendship with the comparitively tolerant Coalition States.

In addition Free quebec refuses to allow human psychics into there armed forces, and they give incentive to human psychic families to renounce there free quebec citizenship and leave the state forever.

[Lenwen]

The Coalition projected military power to another, distant part of the globe, it's true. However, it was a comparatively small force (for now) and force projection presently works only one way: North America to Europe.

If I may ..

The New Navy has force projected thier forces over the entire planet .. from that Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic .. They have the ability to project thier force anywhere in the world as well..

the New Navy is on its own until either the Coalition or the New German Republic can manage to build a large and effective deep water navy

Its already been stated that the NGR has a deep water navy .. they have even sunk a Splugorthian Slaver Mother ship ..

I am curious was this canonly taken out now like the CS navy ?

[azazel1024]

IMHO New Navy and CS wouldn't get along with the Sea Titans. The CS doesn't view psychics all that favorably and I can't see them viewing full on 'mutants' any better. At best I see a massive amount of mistrust for the CS of the New Navy. Sort of a situation Britain/US and Russia had during WWII. On the same side so long as a greater 'evil' lasted, but it is an uneasy alliance at best.

Same goes for Triax/NGR and CS. The CS doesn't like the fact that D-Bees are tolerated in the NGR and the fact that some NGR policies are actually moving D-Bees almost towards 2nd class citizen status (right now they don't really have rights, but they are resonably well tolerated most places, though of course abuse, etc happens plenty and really famous once are accepted as if they were citizens, but don't really have rights still).

From everything I have read the NGR, or at least most of the leadership and plenty of its citizens, don't like the CS trying to tell them what they should and shouldn't do. Combine with with a vastly different society (NGR actively educates and promotes education to its citizens, the CS bans and discourages education among most of its citizens except the ruling elite).

I think if anything the New Navy and the NGR are most likely to remain allies and become closer. I think the CS and NN/NGR are at best going to remain mistrustful allies for as along as the 'dire' situation exists. As soon as either really feels like they can truely stand on their own I think things are going to be a lot chillier between them, especially if the NGR moves towards greater D-bee integration and citizenship or openly accepting mages (probably won't happen, they just don't care about mages/non-issue for 99.9% of NGR citizens) and/or if the CS starts really pushing them on the 'D-bee issue'.

Needs must for now however.
-Matt

PS the situation with Russia and the US/Britain during WWII is a pretty good one with this. Stalin was made man of the year. However there was a lot of mistrust of the US/Britain by Russia from the start and pretty quickly in to the war Britain and then the US mistrusted the hell out of the Russians. Hell look at the situation within just a couple of years of the end of WWII there was the Berlin Airlift due to the Soviets embargoing Berlin and similar. Nearer the end of the war a number of US military generals were pushing to continue the war in Europe once the Nazis surrendered by continuing the push through Eastern Germany all the way to Moscow to eliminate the Communist threat. The mistrust wasn't universal, and certainly not among the US general populace, but it was there and spread quickly both during the war and like wildfire after the war. Heck the Berlin airlift was within 3 years of the end of the war!

[dark brandon]

From everything I have read the NGR, or at least most of the leadership and plenty of its citizens, don't like the CS trying to tell them what they should and shouldn't do. Combine with with a vastly different society (NGR actively educates and promotes education to its citizens, the CS bans and discourages education among most of its citizens except the ruling elite).

One thing I don't understand is that it's been made clear time and time again, that CS and NGR are hard core allies. They arn't fair-weather friends. No where is it stated that "CS tells them what to do", outside of selling weapons and armor to enemies.

CS has made no attempt to "rule" NGR. At best people are saying "look at how it rules it's nation, it's going to push it on NGR", yet there really isn't any proof of that. (Just to restate, Quebec was part of the CS, not an independent nation).

In the future, there may be a problem but most views are coming from that NGR is the only one who's able to change and only change for the better. NGR is in an extremely fragile moment right now in it's society. Trying to bring the dbee population back into acceptance, but it's being stated time and time again there is hard resistance to it, even the 4armed giant (Forget his name) is becoming frustrated and feeling like it may be a lost cause. I bring this up because NGR is going to face even harder challenges when the Brodkil come to play. If resources are slim now, they may get worse. It pretty much states that the dbees themselves are feeling the pinch because human refugees are getting more than them now, and they've been there much longer.

I actually don't see NGR getting better, only worse. When the brodkil war starts, I think you'll see dbees getting the shaft again, and they will begin to starve. This will cause them to become more hostile and desperate, which will cause even more problems. With the evil voice of CS on their necks, NGR will probably become much more intolerant of Dbees.

Regardless, I don't think you'll ever see CS trying to rule or tell NGR what to do, even if they could (they can't).

[gaby]

The CS is about having a human majorty North America.

NGR is the same in Europe,they have different views and means but the end
goal is the SAME to Guaranteed Humankind survive.

It,s Easy for Humans Tolerant in the CCW,they make up 12% of the 3 Galaxy,s population.
the CS and the NGR do not have the luck.

[azazel1024]

My point is that the CS take a dim view of D-Bee toleration and the latest book mentions that these concerns have been brought up to the NGR and the NGR leadership at least mistrusts the CS in part because of the, for now, gentle proding to basically kick out the D-Bees.

If the NGR does actually move toward greater D-Bee acceptance this is going to strain things with the CS from both sides. If they move futher from it because of events it will likely make them even closer allies. The societies are still radically different though in terms of out look, education, etc.

There isn't really anything mentioned of them being hardcore allies. Allies yes, but not joined at the hip and plenty of missgivings from both sides.
-Matt

[dark brandon]

My point is that the CS take a dim view of D-Bee toleration and the latest book mentions that these concerns have been brought up to the NGR and the NGR leadership at least mistrusts the CS in part because of the, for now, gentle proding to basically kick out the D-Bees.

I may have missed this part, could I have page number?

If the NGR does actually move toward greater D-Bee acceptance this is going to strain things with the CS from both sides. If they move futher from it because of events it will likely make them even closer allies. The societies are still radically different though in terms of out look, education, etc.

There isn't really anything mentioned of them being hardcore allies. Allies yes, but not joined at the hip and plenty of missgivings from both sides.
-Matt

Sure there is, it's all over the books. They share technology, food, soldiers and information. They are not just allies, but it states repeatedly in both books that they are both happy to have each other as allies. This isn't a US/USSR thing. I think this is one reason why kevin added in the book the addition of CS soldiers to operation sea storm, it shows they are mutually concerned about each other, not just for political reasons or war reasons.

As for societies being different, they are, but that has never stopped a nation in the past from allieing with another nation, especially if they have a vested interest in it, for whatever reason. There are more than a few US "allies" who's societies are nothing like our own today who we are allied with that could constitute a "strong" alliance, even though sociologically we are worlds apart.

[The Galactus Kid]

As for societies being different, they are, but that has never stopped a nation in the past from allieing with another nation, especially if they have a vested interest in it, for whatever reason. There are more than a few US "allies" who's societies are nothing like our own today who we are allied with that could constitute a "strong" alliance, even though sociologically we are worlds apart.

This is so very true. The CS may not like that the NGR has the policies in place regarding D-bees and non-humans, but it DOES recognize it as a sovereign HUMAN nation. That HUMAN part is important. The CS and the NGR are allies in the extreme and neither one really wants to end that friendship. The CS tolerates the NGR practices it doesn't like and vise-versa.

[The Galactus Kid]

As for societies being different, they are, but that has never stopped a nation in the past from allieing with another nation, especially if they have a vested interest in it, for whatever reason. There are more than a few US "allies" who's societies are nothing like our own today who we are allied with that could constitute a "strong" alliance, even though sociologically we are worlds apart.

This is so very true. The CS may not like that the NGR has the policies in place regarding D-bees and non-humans, but it DOES recognize it as a sovereign HUMAN nation. That HUMAN part is important. The CS and the NGR are allies in the extreme and neither one really wants to end that friendship. The CS tolerates the NGR practices it doesn't like and vise-versa.

so kinda like how we felt about the USSR in ww2, then?

Yes. Much.