Any idea for New Ship weapons?

[keir451]

Hi there!

Hi there!
Nanotech: Nanites are fine, thought there is the possibility that the target ship blasts you into pieces
and only after then will the nanites take control. However, keep in mind, that in the 3 Galaxies most
military hardware is designed with Machine People hackers in mind -> ie. has some kind of defense
against nanite based intrusion.

Also, seeing the general anti-AI sentiment of the 3 Galaxies, I guess ship computers are designed
with "BSG achitecture" .

It depends on the level/version of nanites being used, for example if you're using the Windows Vista version of nanites then the CCW's anti Machine person defenses would easily over come them, but if you used an extremely virulent form that was 1,000,000 times MORE advanced than the CCW defenses, then they lose. The nanites could infect the WHOLE ship, hull and all, not just the computers. So the BSG defense doesn't matter when the nanites can literally eat your ships hull and weapons systems out from under you.

That raises a few questions:
1, Where those million times advanced nanites coming from?
2, BSG style ships - and as it looks like, 3G ships fall into this category - which are designed
specifically against AI/nanotech intrusion needs to be disabled as a whole. It takes time (from
minutes to hours, even days) - and during that the targeted ship can fight for a degree.
3, Anti-Machine People defenses (and this includes defenses against Telemechanics powered Noros and so on)
might mean a nasty electric surge - which can fry nanites.
4, There is no unpenetratable shield and all-penetrating spear - a measure which can defend a ship
from nanites needs a roll with a dice to be successful, "gamewise", to say so.

Adios
KLM

Well in PW the Tzee have a very high level of nano tech, so they could come from there. There's also the Naruni whio have a warship composed of nanomachines, so even if you "destroy" it, it rebuilds itself (you have to completely atomize the thing, it was in Naruni Wave 2). But the point was more along the lines of encountering another, even more highly advanced race, that uses nanotech of a different magnitude than exists currently in PW. I also tend to treat nano assaults more like viral attacks (bio and computer), they can be programmed for fast replication once they come into contact with the ships hull (assuming they get past the shields) and then they spread like an infection, not like a hacking attempt. The only "roll" involved, beside the attack roll, would be to see how long the nanites take in subsuming the ship.
The problem w/the electrical surge defense is you have to know that your ship is infected, and if the nanites have already subsumed part of the ship before you're aware, then they could survive the defense and then replicate again, think Stargates Replicators in sense or other types of infections, if you don't get it all it comes back even stronger.

[azazel1024]

Being as the Silverhawk is equipped with a special weapon just to get through shields, I have to say they really are like a wall. Otherwise, attacks and whatnot (like power armors) could get through without any need of the silverhawks shield penetrator.

And speaking of said penetrator... Cruise Missiles with said equipment installed? Nasty, but probably very expensive. Except, that can't be true, if a Silverhawk costs just over 3 million credits. Considering that the knock offs without that system and the stealth system cost only 1.5 mill, the price of the shield penetrator must be small, indeed. Maybe 1 million for the penetrator. Sure, expensive, but not for an intergalactic Military.

The cost probably goes up though because you also have to incorporate the power system. Cruise missiles I picture as running off batteries and chemical propellant. I really have no idea, but I'd guess you'd probably need to build in a nuclear battery or something similar, so the cost probably would push higher. The size could be an issue as well. A Silverhawk isn't all that big compared to a cruise missile. There might be an upper range to what the shield penetrator could work on (that or power requirements scale lineaerly or even geometrically with size which is why you don't see it on cruise missiles or star fighters).

Just some thoughts on it, but I have wondered the same thing, of why we don't see at least a handful of specialized shield penetrator missiles, even if they are only medium or long range missiles. Expensive, but if you can punch a dozen even long range missiles straight through the shields that can be very, very nasty.
-Matt

[KLM]

Hi there!

Being as the Silverhawk is equipped with a special weapon just to get through shields, I have to say they really are like a wall. Otherwise, attacks and whatnot (like power armors) could get through without any need of the silverhawks shield penetrator.

Not neccesarily. Using the Silverhawks disruptor (?) means that the attacker does not have to
move slooooooowly thought the shield, as detailed at Naruni Force fields (ie. with a penalty of -6 or so),
which said to be hazardous to health in the presence of point defense canons.

As for installing it on a cruise missile... I think it is possible, since 3G missiles are contragravity driven.

I mean "yer olde" chemical LRM - pictured in the NGR book, for example is not the missile one
finds in the description of the "Typical Runner ship" in DMB2 - 48 of those takes a single ton of
cargo space... Do the math.

Now, as we see a CG backpack can run on an E-clip long enough that a cruise missile to run on
an E-clip or two, also. This means the shield disruptor can be installed, thought on the expense of the
warhead yield.
On the other hand, installing a guidance system in a stripped down Silverhawk and then filling
the PA with K-HEx to the brim... Cost and damage can be calculated (I guess it will outperform
most cruise missiles).

-------------
Nanotech:
T'Zee nanotech "dies" within melee rounds after leaving its saliva or what. Also, it does not
replicate itself - unlike the Replicators from the other side of a Stargate. And finally, they
are not smart enough to take over a ship/computer system.

Machine People or the Wrath of God destroyer manufacture their internal repair nanites,
but that is like we humans eat food, break it down and then make cells from it.

A nanotech "eater" ammunition however would function like if a single drop of blood
on a pile of food and then it will form itself into a clone of the original using the
nutrients around.

So, it is not feasible on the current level of the 3Galaxies.

What IS feasible, that a warhead contains a - limited - Artifical Intelligence and the
equivalent of the nanotech multi-tool (DMB2). If it breaks the shields, it attaches itself
to the hull, then enters it, physically moves to the target system and disables it.

However, onboard systems do have a chance to detect it.

A less than serious version of it was when the SW epIII. - the small "sabotage" droids
attacking the starfighter of Anakin (or Obi-wan?). The onboard AI tried countermeasures
(R2 was successful as I remember, the other astromech was not.

Adios
KLM

[Tearstone]

Oooh, what about just flooding the comms with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm4y_4tv ... re=channel
They'll be so confused...

BEARDYMAN!!!!!

I love Beardyman! He is one of my heroes! sorta... Anyway, he's wicked awesome!

[KLM]

Hi there!

Actually, the nano bots from the Wrath of God or Machine Men would be perfect basis for a Nano bot weapon. Take the above nano bots, tweak the programing a wee bit to make them think there parent is A) huge, and B) all but destroyed, then introduce them to the enemy ship as a source of raw material. Do it right, and you could end up with the nano bots destroying the enemy ship, and making a new one in the process! Especially if the nano bots think that, say, a Warshield Cruiser is the parent.

Nope. As I see, nanites in the 3Galaxies need to be controlled to perform such tasks - and they are to small to be that smart.
(Unless of course they come fom the Core, Alien Dimension, etc.). The best they can do is to destroy anything during their
limited lifetime, which is not a fellow nanite.

Like injecting some blood into another lifeform: it can make him/her/it sick, if incompatible, but WILL NOT turn the other
lifeform into my clone.

Even the nanites from the Machine People or the Wrath of God stop if the parent dies/destroyed.

Or from another POW: a single cell can contain the genetic material to create a clone - in a womb/ in vitro, and the clone
is just a twin. Does not have the memories, experience, scars, etc of the original. One just cannot cram that amount of
information into something less than the grey matter between our ears.

If they can make nano bots that break down raw materials to fix any portion of a Wrath of God or an intelligent robot, from scratch if necessary, or change the shape of an object from a gun to a camera or laptop computer (all of which works, by the way), then getting some to do the above doesn't seem far fetched or beyond the current 3G abilities at all. After all, the difference between a Warshield and a Wrath of God is, when you get right down to it, size and shape. They both have guns, they both have armor, propulsion systems, computer systems, etc. etc. Self replication of nano bots seems like an ability that can be easily bestowed to nano bots.

Nope. It is far, far easier to create a working (ie. moving) robot, with a central power source and remote control (as in both
of the above examples), than a fully self sufficient one, with replicating powers and then the ability to work in concert.

BtW, the afore mentioned Replicators had their "internet" - which was hacked a few times in the show (with the help of
Thor).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Hi there!

What I am suggesting is that Nano bots can be programmed to build from scratch a contra gravity engine, particle beam cannons, missile launchers, gravitic sonar systems, radar systems, and all the sundry other systems involved with a Wrath of God. But, even though they can programmed to do that, they couldn't be programmed to make a copy of themselves?

Because like they are not programmed to do it?

Nanotech from Machine people or the Wrath of God STOP when their parent is destroyed. No troll-like
regeneration from a drop of blood - therefore those nanotech are just remote controlled ones.

Also, they seem to slice out a piece of material, carry it into the machine, where it is manufactured into
the needed (microscopic) part - but the whole mechanism is macroscopic.

If the nanites themselves could do the whole thing, then the Stick in You Eye would not have an
onboard AI. Impossible on the "standard" tech level of the 3Galaxies.

The nerve cell looks like something made up in a hollywood basement for the next B-rated space horror film.

(Axons, dendrons, yep..)

Neuron beast anyone?

Back to business: nanites on the 3G level are only cells - specialised cells. One, or a few of them cannot do more
that a single task (in case of T'Zee piranha guns it means : destroy).

-----------------

But it would be bad any way you look at it. As long as the system running the nano bots DIDN'T connect with the ships systems, the computers on the ship couldn't do anything about it, and Machine People would be hard pressed to do anything about as well, as they would have to find the computers running the nano bots to stop them.

Yepp. Do the central units communicate with the nanites? They do. Can it be detected? Of course.

Intruder localised. (And we were not even talking about hull integrity systems).

OK, now what powersurge destroys nanites, yet leaves the main systems intact? I guess any car
can withstand a jolt of like 50000 volts for a split second (you know: static electricity jolt from your pullover)
- but I guess not many CPU-s. And nanites are much more delicate.

After all, they can control one machine at a time, and controlling one nano bot wouldn't do them any good at all. Controlling the computer running the nano bots would work, but only for the nano bots that computer controls, it would be obviously a good idea to make sure each computer controls different nano bots. As they spread out over the ship, this would get progressively harder and harder to stop.

Controlling a single computer unit means we can inject a virus into it, so that they will attack and reprogram
other CPUs (lets call them this). Now it will be a lot faster event, than to manufacture other "CPU+nanite" units.

Problem solved again.

--------------
So we have a theory, now roll for success.

Adios
KLM

[Qev]

Roving nanobots would probably make pretty wretched weapons, honestly, because they're far too vulnerable to countermeasures when used out in the open. A mist of reasonably reactive chemicals or heck, a strong far-UV flashlight would render them harmless in short order. If you could, say, get them inside a person or other secure, out of the way place, sure they could do damage, but otherwise... probably not.

I've got an idea for a peculiar weapon, but it depends on whether or not anyone's settled on how shields in the 3G verse actually work, in terms of allowing the shielded party to still use their weapons: are they of the 'one-way barrier' type, or are they 'open the gun ports' type? I suppose this idea could be modified to work in either case, now that I think about it.

Basically, load a warhead with a charge of specially-crafted chemical dust, the particles specifically designed to be strongly 'shield-philic', ie. they stick to forcefields. This in and of itself doesn't cause the target any real problems (except for perhaps some sensor degradation). Of course, the story changes when they attempt to fire any sort of energy weapons (well, other than phase weapons): instead of their shields being transparent from their weapons point of view, the dust renders them effectively opaque, meaning their first few shots are going to be dealing damage directly to their own shields, until the dust is dispersed by the blasts.

In the case that 3G shields are of the 'porthole' type, the warhead would be loaded with a similar sort of dust, only one that tends to form long chains, almost a sort of gossamer web, while in contact with a target's shields. These polymer webs tend to conduct energy extremely efficiently, so when a weapon porthole opens, the webbing remains across it, conducting energy blasts from the weapons into the surrounding shields and thus damaging them, as before.

In both cases the target can negate the effects of the dust by the simple expedient of lowering their shields, causing the dust to disperse. This, of course, brings with it other problems when you're in the middle of a battle, though.



Also, what was with the whole science argument earlier? There's no science in 3G, I mean... seriously.

[KLM]

Hi there!

I've got an idea for a peculiar weapon, but it depends on whether or not anyone's settled on how shields in the 3G verse actually work, in terms of allowing the shielded party to still use their weapons: are they of the 'one-way barrier' type, or are they 'open the gun ports' type? I suppose this idea could be modified to work in either case, now that I think about it.

Basically, load a warhead with a charge of specially-crafted chemical dust, the particles specifically designed to be strongly 'shield-philic', ie. they stick to forcefields. This in and of itself doesn't cause the target any real problems (except for perhaps some sensor degradation). Of course, the story changes when they attempt to fire any sort of energy weapons (well, other than phase weapons): instead of their shields being transparent from their weapons point of view, the dust renders them effectively opaque, meaning their first few shots are going to be dealing damage directly to their own shields, until the dust is dispersed by the blasts.

Might work, thought a rather vast amount of dust is needed to cover the entire ship, so IMO it just
more cost effective to deploy a more conventional warhead or two instead of the dust.

Also, if the shields are switched off, while the ship is accelerating, just for a split second, the dust just
falls down (away from the ship anyway). Catching that split second is hard, especially if the ship cleans
her shields one arc at a time, preferably turning that facing away from the enemy.

------------
I use the "shields are emitting a pulse to cancel out incoming attacks" theory - a special "anti-shield"
warhead therefore is loaded with monofilament mesh (or flechettes connected with it). A ship hit with
it must expend a great deal of energy to rip apart the web - as the emitters try to push away pieces
in different directions.
In game terms - high damage against shields, lower damage against armor.

Adios
KLM

[Qev]

Well, it was better than my first idea, a missile that covers the opponent's ship in dust and then writes rude words in it, requiring an ME save as a psychological attack.

I suppose a variation of the shield-dust idea is that instead of damage, it might just tend to disperse the opponent's weapon-fire, penalizing their strike and damage rolls. Or shield-jamming dust that clings to the hull and interferes with their ability to generate shields in the first place, reducing their effectiveness.

If you want something really esoteric, you could launch missiles with warhead packages consisting of multiple rods, each rod composed of a metamaterial constructed around the de Broglie wavelength of the most common MDC armor materials in use. Assuming their shields are down, the rods of the right material would diffract through their armor as if it weren't there. Though I guess with OP-Fields you can do it that way instead.

[KLM]

Hi there!

If you want something really esoteric, you could launch missiles with warhead packages consisting of multiple rods, each rod composed of a metamaterial constructed around the de Broglie wavelength of the most common MDC armor materials in use. Assuming their shields are down, the rods of the right material would diffract through their armor as if it weren't there. Though I guess with OP-Fields you can do it that way instead.

IMO starship armor is layered - so such a projectile will only pass the outmost layer. However, it is probably the thickest,
and a direct hit into the heat-dispersing second layer with a kinetic penetrator will have spectacular results.

In other words: a nice explosion inside the armor, maybe even directed inwards. Ouch.

Adios
KLM

[Shorty Lickens]

I suppose we could rip off Master of Orion 2.

Laser Cannon, Fusion Beam, Ion Pulse Cannon, Neutron Blaster, Graviton Beam, Phasors, Plasma Cannon, Mauler Device, Pulsar, Mass Driver, Gauss Cannon, Disruptor Cannon, Death Ray, Particle beam, Stellar Converter.

[Qev]

I suppose we could rip off Master of Orion 2.

Laser Cannon, Fusion Beam, Ion Pulse Cannon, Neutron Blaster, Graviton Beam, Phasors, Plasma Cannon, Mauler Device, Pulsar, Mass Driver, Gauss Cannon, Disruptor Cannon, Death Ray, Particle beam, Stellar Converter.

What?! No black hole generator?!

If I could have any one weapon from another franchise for my 3G spacecraft, it would have to be a Bobble generator (and the associated computer support) from Vinge's Realtime stories. But that would be terribly, terribly wrong.

I do like really odd weapons, though. Strategic-level supertech things, like texture weapons, or string-guns who's 'beam' is actually an instantaneously-generated, infinitely long cosmic string. The latter is something you'd especially want to use sparingly, I imagine, since the cosmic string isn't likely to just go away once you've made it; total war with weapons like that would stand a reasonable chance of "Will It Blend?"-ing the entire universe.