How would YOU .. beat the CS military ?

[dragonfett]

Anybody here think that the CS doesn't have the stones to kill 100,000 people or more for every casualty it suffers in a sufficiently massive terrorist attack?
(NOTE: We haven't even taken the Golden Age City Killer Nukes into the equation -hurt the CS badly enough, and it WILL simply obliterate everyone in your home state and worry about problems with fallout later.)

The only problem I see with that is that eventually, the CS citizenry will become so terrified of their government that they will openly revolt because what they see is "They are going to kill me anyway because some terrorist was born three blocks over, so I don't have anything to lose." Not to mention that if any of the soldiers tasked with such dasterly deed will revolt themselves, and even the most hardened grunt will hesitate. Look at how the CS fought against Free Quebec. The whole reason they won that fight is that the CS soldiers hesitated firing upon fellow human supremists.

[cornholioprime]

Anybody here think that the CS doesn't have the stones to kill 100,000 people or more for every casualty it suffers in a sufficiently massive terrorist attack?
(NOTE: We haven't even taken the Golden Age City Killer Nukes into the equation -hurt the CS badly enough, and it WILL simply obliterate everyone in your home state and worry about problems with fallout later.)

The only problem I see with that is that eventually, the CS citizenry will become so terrified of their government that they will openly revolt because what they see is "They are going to kill me anyway because some terrorist was born three blocks over, so I don't have anything to lose." Not to mention that if any of the soldiers tasked with such dasterly deed will revolt themselves, and even the most hardened grunt will hesitate. Look at how the CS fought against Free Quebec. The whole reason they won that fight is that the CS soldiers hesitated firing upon fellow human supremists.

The people inside the domes don't care about what goes on outside them -one of the advantages of a dictatorship who not only controls the News......but also keeps most of its citizens from reading!

(And remember, the CS doesn't have to engage in out-and-out genocide, they only have to completely raze a 'Burb or two once they get their hands on somebody, interrogate him, and find out where he came from.)

[Lenwen]

Do you guys think the 3 Lords of magic could stop a CS invasion ?

[Shark_Force]

Do you guys think the 3 Lords of magic could stop a CS invasion ?

[sarcasm]no. some CS general has a theory that if you march through the magic zone whilst wearing underpants on your head and singing "ring around a rosie" the gods of magic will just ignore everything you do. and it will be proven correct. because, after all, that's what happens when a CS general comes up with a stupid theory that makes little to no sense.

the CS troops will then do this while marching through the magic zone for several months, without stopping for food, water, rest, or toilet breaks. because that is also totally believable and doesn't sound like someone just pulled it out of their butt.[/sarcasm]

(my more serious answer would be: not as such, the gods themselves without any support would likely be insufficient to defeat the sheer numbers the CS has been presented as having available. the gods of magic plus all their followers in the magic zone, on the other hand, should probably be able to kick the crap out of the CS if the CS was dumb enough to invade, by fighting them the entire way. particularly considering the CS wouldn't really have any choice other than to wander around randomly and hope they find dweomer. even moreso when you consider that the lords of magic are not strictly speaking bound to dweomer, and could just as easily decide to move in the even that the CS does decide the attack)

[dragonfett]

The people inside the domes don't care about what goes on outside them -one of the advantages of a dictatorship who not only controls the News......but also keeps most of its citizens from reading!

(And remember, the CS doesn't have to engage in out-and-out genocide, they only have to completely raze a 'Burb or two once they get their hands on somebody, interrogate him, and find out where he came from.)

They will still eventually find out by word of mouth that a town or 'burb is missing. More so if that 'burb has some factory or store that makes deliveries into Chi-Town. I honestly don't see the CS surviving more than 25 to 30 years acting the way they are. Dictatorships are usually short lived, although there are some notable exceptions (The Roman Empire and Cuba). The Roman Empire (as did the Mongolian Empire) was as successful as it was because of the fact that they allowed the people that they conquered to keep their ways of life and beliefs for the most part, incorporating their beliefs into the their own if need be, so it made the transition much easier for the common person.

[Steeler49er]

The people inside the domes don't care about what goes on outside them -one of the advantages of a dictatorship who not only controls the News......but also keeps most of its citizens from reading!

(And remember, the CS doesn't have to engage in out-and-out genocide, they only have to completely raze a 'Burb or two once they get their hands on somebody, interrogate him, and find out where he came from.)

They will still eventually find out by word of mouth that a town or 'burb is missing. More so if that 'burb has some factory or store that makes deliveries into Chi-Town. I honestly don't see the CS surviving more than 25 to 30 years acting the way they are. Dictatorships are usually short lived, although there are some notable exceptions (The Roman Empire and Cuba). The Roman Empire (as did the Mongolian Empire) was as successful as it was because of the fact that they allowed the people that they conquered to keep their ways of life and beliefs for the most part, incorporating their beliefs into the their own if need be, so it made the transition much easier for the common person.

You forget to add in, China AND The Coalition States as for to Other examples of Dictator run countries.

The CS has been running strong for 100 Years now by doing what they've been doing. They are NOT above killing you and that has been what has been scaring the cr@p outta the other guys so well. In such hostial environments librallist ways of thinking among people simply don't exist, the people just don't have the luxury to flaunt what they don't even have. They don't live in the old US, UK, South America, Japan, or Austrailias of old where they could afford to speak out against their governments because they aren't getting enough putting (I want it'ness). In many cases they have limited resources, are under attack, and would just rather Live in their own depressed little cubby-holes of the world than rather chance it and loose what Very little of their lives they may still have left.

Remember that not everyone is willing to stand up, fight, and die for a freedom that they'll never get to see... Because they're dead, they died fighting for others dreams rememeber. It's called "Survival of the Fittest", not Survival of the Brave or Stupid. Rats are far better survivalists than "Cause Motivated" humans tend to be. Sure you can 'Protest' by walking down the streets while holding up traffic like an @** and flaunting your selfrightious views, why, because it's Seattle and they're jerks...
BUT IT'S ALSO CAUSE THE US GOVERNMENT FEARS THE PEOPLE... AS (Even if liberals deard to admit it) MUCH OF THE COUNTRY IS STILL ARMED!!!
That's simply Not the case with the peoples in and around the CS. And worse yet is the fact that the Old US always had and was set up with a Constitution which granted such freedoms, the CS had no such issues with doing away with they're (IF they ever had one).

THE SIMPLE FACTS OF WHY NATIONS REALLY FALL...
Mortallity!!! The CS has gone on for 100 years BUT that is because the human that created it could share the fullness of his Original vision with his son and Then he died. Karl P has only deviated a little from his fathers course, but now HE has a son as well and when Karl dies that son (Like all others) will deviate a little more from that course, and HIS sons will deviate even more. And if he has a Daughter well then she'll likely deviate x4times farther (More PC by nature, or maybe goes nuts and becomes 4x's more visious).
THIS is what kills nations... The forgetfulness of the past. Each generation moves further away from their founding principles and the dreams of their founders, those dreams in time get muddled and mashed as the quality of living increases and the quality of listening (about that past) decreases.
The CS will not "fall in time", but rather will "Likely fall in time"! And the kids will be it's down fall...

HOWEVER!
Immortality (or extended Longevity) crushes that dream/hope for most everyone since I doubt that the US founding fathers would have ever let the U.S. deviate as far as it has over the years, from the actions of the "Leftists" and "Far Right" in this country, should they still be alive today. Imagine if Lenin or Stalin were still alive today then so would the USSR be around today.
The longer a human made 'god' exists, the greater chance he has of keeping his original dreams afloat. Dying gives the Next generation(s) the ability to further themselves from those dreams (or evils as in the case of the CS), but the CS has a greater standard of living, a greater standard of military (who protects the people from REAL threats, not made up ones), and can offer you a longer life...
And THAT LAST PART is a big selling point and it is, in the eyes of most in the CS and even outside the CS (as evident by Erin Tarns constant doubts about her cause and increasning votes of confidence for the CS under her breath) due mostly to that 'Evil Dictatorship'.

As long as the threats against the CS are real, the CS dictatorship will have what it needs to stay in power. And as long as it "Original Architects" stay alive, the CS dictatorship will have what it needs to stay in power. And as long as those in power never weaken their strangle hold on the information the people are privy to, The CS dictatorship will have what it needs to stay in power. AND as long as the CS dicatorship continues to prove that "they mean business", the CS dictatorship will have what it needs to stay in power. AND as long as the CS continues to keep the people in a state of copasetic-ness with long lives themselves and plenty of reasons to keep going everyday, the CS dictatorship will have what it needs to stay in power because the People will still be alive to remember the guys who gave that to them.

How would you beat the CS military ?

And because of what I just wrote, and the shear number of those who would/will/do die everyday that the life of the Cs is drugout and allowed to thrive, I still say that the Best way to defeat them is also still the Fastest way.
Nuke them. Use a hemmed down (weakend) version of of the 'Annihilation' spell that does Not have that powerful protective force field and Let it do it's job, the most Anti-nature intended it to.
Nothing has changed that fact.

[Steeler49er]

NOW THE REAL PROBLEM....
Who to put in power Afterwards, that is the only Real question and since Erin Tarn and Lazlo pussed out of helping Tolkeen defend itself because (in their Original words) "Lazlo does not get involved in political fights" (Yeah, that's right, you heard me, that was the Lazlo Counsel gave as their Real reason for not getting involved... It had Nothing to do with Tolkeen summoning demons to fight for them, this is what lazlo said Long before the war started and Tolkeen was forced to do dangerious things) and for THAT REASON, and the fact that Lazlo pulled an old liberalistic manuver and came in like angels at the very, Very, VERY last seconds and saved some people from the "Damage that this war started by Tolkeen", That is why they can never be trusted to be put in charge.

It was Also something that I'm sure the Other nations of North America would have taken sight of and has given them All the understanding that "If Lazlo will just stand so idly by and letting an evil nation like the CS win, just so as to prove themselves and their 'selfrightious causes' correct, what would such a; smug, selfrightious, egotistical, holier-than-thou, hypocritical bunch of jerks do to "us" in such a similar set of instances??? Would they expect Us to cowtow their party lines, only to tell us as well that we should Also ditch Our homes because our homes "have no sympathetic worth" to those in charge of Lazlo?"
And if Lazlo was so attacked by the CS as Tolkeen was, would they REALLY follow their Own advice and "Flee their city"? And why is it that Lazlo always comes out so against using the tools of 'Wars and Violance' when it is up against the 'Great Humans-last-hope-Empire' of the CS, but they are fully willing to fight, kill, and Even Gloat like the braggerts they are when They overcome a great evil using those same tools of War and Violance? Lazlo is Not saying that War and Violance are only wrong when fighting the CS, when they actually get in other faces about conflicts with the CS, they are ACTUALLY coming out and saying that War and Violance are "Never the solutions" and that only desparate fools and mean people use those methods... But again lazlo only seem to say this, or take this stance on life when actually talking about Others fighting the CS...

Does Lazlo feel that "Only the CS (Being humanities Last hope) should be allowed to thrive should the nambys in lazlo not ever get their chance? And isn't all that "If it ain't gonna be us here in Lazlo, then The CS is Humanities best chance!" garbage just basically Lazlo saying all of Us other largely Non-human run nations, just basically Lazlo pulling the Same HUMANISTIC load of crap from a Leftist angle, that the CS pulls from a more Right-wnger angle?
So are the people in charge (like the 'mortal made a goddess, yet is still mortal as heck' Erin Tarn) maybe Juuuuusssssttttt maybe harboring Juuuuussssttt a wee little amount of racial pro "Only humans should be in charge of all of you since it is OUR world" BS???"---
----Safe to say that This rather realistic POV is shaired by all of the Non-stupid nations of North America (not that there are many left thanks to the CS destroying them... And Lazlo standing by and watching).

THIS MEANS THAT SOMEONE ELSE (Other than those horrid creatures of Lazlo) NEEDS TO TAKE UP THE REIGNS OF TRUTH AND "REAL" RIGHTIOUSNESS (Not self-rightiousness) AND LEAD THE NATIONS, OTHER THAN LAZLO, TO VICTORY OVER THE CS, AND LATER JUST PLAIN RULE OVER NORTH AMERICA.
Now that we can See the Travesty that is "Lazlo the Wrong in it all" for letting evil (the CS in this case) win the day out over good, I nominate the NEW NAVY or THE NEW REPUBLICANS (Perfering the New Navy, as the Captain is Immortal) for the job...
It will be like when the USA (New Navy or Rebublicans) FINALLY got involved in WWII to fight the murderious Germans (The Coalition States) which stopped the evil slaughter of the Jews (D-Bees) and stopped the Nazis from controlling terrorizing and subjugating Europe (the Other nations of North America in this case) and the rest of the world.





Lets get to work making that happen... I know I have!
Go Navy!



Or in my case... The full force might of my Super ubber powerful crash landed (Sentinals Time line) REF Ikazuchi-class war ship and several Garfish-class cruisers.

[Corinth]

The Coalition States possesses a mighty war machine, backed by an equally cunning intelligence operation. Yet the majority, indeed all but a very few (as a percentage), are still sufficiently mortal that they have to eat. The Coalition States military (and intelligence) institutions are as tied to their logistical trains as any contemporary military, and therefore as just as vulnerable to being starved into submission if those lines get cut. The conclusion, therefore, is obvious.

I would attack the Coalition's farmlands. I would burn the crops. I would butcher the animals. I would raze the farmsteads and drive the farmers out of the countryside and towards the cities (doubling the effect of their displacement). I would sabotage the seed banks and kill every last country doctor and veterinarian I encountered. I would not need high technology. I would not need supernatural power. I would need only some means to start a fire, a club, and some skill in moving unseen and tracking others. I hit--often unseen--and immediately fade into the countryside, and steer clear of Psi-Battalion operatives always, relocating often to avoid detection and capture. As soon as Coalition security forces begin moving in to saturate one area, I immediately move to where they are not and resume operations in that area. In time, it will become impossible to continue external campaigns due to increasing civil unrest; using the military against the population will just make it all worse until either the Coalition States collapses or the government turns over and ceases to be the expansionist state that it is at present.

[Kovoston]

As a GM... simple... I wave my hand and tell my players the CS just spontaneously exploded... like... the entire states... just exploded. There is now a huge hole in the Earth where the CS territory was, exactly on the state lines... well maybe one little pillar still standing... that can be Kingsdale.

Hey, Erin Tarn, any D-Bees or the Slugorth and every other Coalition hating supernatural critter would love you for that!

[Kovoston]

The seed of the possible defeat of the Coalition States is actually written right into canon.

Atlantis.

If Splynncryth actually felt that the Xitixix plague was becoming too much of a danger all he would have to do is bring in a small fraction of his inter-dimensional armies to Rifts Earth and roll on through. He has more Kidian Overlords than there are people in the Coalition States. That is not counting the Kidian Powerlords. Then add the Kittani and their space fleets….and we have not even talked about the more powerful stuff he could bring to the table because he has access to every magical trick that exists except for Spells of Legend…and he may have access to some of those.

A small fraction of the firepower and magic Splynncryth can bring to bare could throw the whole WORLD back into the dark ages.

Just obliterating the Coalition? No worries.

WildWalker

Wouldn't the Shamirrian (sp?) Nation backed by ARCHIE 3 have any interest in keeping the Slugorth away?

[cornholioprime]

<snip>
Wouldn't the Shamirrian (sp?) Nation backed by ARCHIE 3 have any interest in keeping the Slugorth away?

Absolutely but ARCHIE 3 couldn't do anythng but sit back and wait for the carnage to clear if Atlantis decided to move. His resources are just too small.

If anyone in canon could win against Atlantis in the long term it would be ARCHIE 3 but that game would take generations unless something specific happened that might make Splynncryth decide he's not interested in Rifts Earth. Short term Splynncryth just has too many resources at his disposal.

WildWalker

Splynncrtyh's resources on Atlantis alone -which amounts to little more than a garrison force compared to his total might -is more than the entire, estimated population of Rifts Earth.

[Daeglan]

The coalition is easy to defeat. You kill them in hit and run tactics. Make sure you kill the men. Soldiers are difficult to replace.

[Hystrix]

The coalition is easy to defeat. You kill them in hit and run tactics. Make sure you kill the men. Soldiers are difficult to replace.

I'm not sure a war of attrition works against the CS, at least it didn't work for Tolkeen.

[gelidus]

With the power of plot......

[Daeglan]

The coalition is easy to defeat. You kill them in hit and run tactics. Make sure you kill the men. Soldiers are difficult to replace.

I'm not sure a war of attrition works against the CS, at least it didn't work for Tolkeen.

Tolkeen had a base that could be hit. You have to give them no target. Hit them hard and fast then fade away leaving no target to retaliate against.

[Ed]

The Coalition States possesses a mighty war machine, backed by an equally cunning intelligence operation. Yet the majority, indeed all but a very few (as a percentage), are still sufficiently mortal that they have to eat. The Coalition States military (and intelligence) institutions are as tied to their logistical trains as any contemporary military, and therefore as just as vulnerable to being starved into submission if those lines get cut. The conclusion, therefore, is obvious.

I would attack the Coalition's farmlands. I would burn the crops. I would butcher the animals. I would raze the farmsteads and drive the farmers out of the countryside and towards the cities (doubling the effect of their displacement). I would sabotage the seed banks and kill every last country doctor and veterinarian I encountered. I would not need high technology. I would not need supernatural power. I would need only some means to start a fire, a club, and some skill in moving unseen and tracking others. I hit--often unseen--and immediately fade into the countryside, and steer clear of Psi-Battalion operatives always, relocating often to avoid detection and capture. As soon as Coalition security forces begin moving in to saturate one area, I immediately move to where they are not and resume operations in that area. In time, it will become impossible to continue external campaigns due to increasing civil unrest; using the military against the population will just make it all worse until either the Coalition States collapses or the government turns over and ceases to be the expansionist state that it is at present.

That would only work on a small scale. Once you became a serious irritant, you'd be dead. Because the vet/farmer/seed bank worker you thought you were attacking turned out to be CS Special Forces with significant reinforcements, and artillery, seconds away.

[Ed]

<snip>
Wouldn't the Shamirrian (sp?) Nation backed by ARCHIE 3 have any interest in keeping the Slugorth away?

Absolutely but ARCHIE 3 couldn't do anythng but sit back and wait for the carnage to clear if Atlantis decided to move. His resources are just too small.

If anyone in canon could win against Atlantis in the long term it would be ARCHIE 3 but that game would take generations unless something specific happened that might make Splynncryth decide he's not interested in Rifts Earth. Short term Splynncryth just has too many resources at his disposal.

WildWalker

Splynncrtyh's resources on Atlantis alone -which amounts to little more than a garrison force compared to his total might -is more than the entire, estimated population of Rifts Earth.

Forces that still have to eat, travel in-theatre to North America, and operate in a slave economy. As has been pointed out, nearly every time this topic comes up, the absoulte number of troops is less important than the number that can be deployed to fight.

[The Galactus Kid]

<snip>
Wouldn't the Shamirrian (sp?) Nation backed by ARCHIE 3 have any interest in keeping the Slugorth away?

Absolutely but ARCHIE 3 couldn't do anythng but sit back and wait for the carnage to clear if Atlantis decided to move. His resources are just too small.

If anyone in canon could win against Atlantis in the long term it would be ARCHIE 3 but that game would take generations unless something specific happened that might make Splynncryth decide he's not interested in Rifts Earth. Short term Splynncryth just has too many resources at his disposal.

WildWalker

Splynncrtyh's resources on Atlantis alone -which amounts to little more than a garrison force compared to his total might -is more than the entire, estimated population of Rifts Earth.

Forces that still have to eat, travel in-theatre to North America, and operate in a slave economy. As has been pointed out, nearly every time this topic comes up, the absoulte number of troops is less important than the number that can be deployed to fight.

I'm pretty sure they can just teleport a couple mages where the need to go and open up some rifts. Transportation and resupply won't be an issue.

[Lenwen]

<snip>
Wouldn't the Shamirrian (sp?) Nation backed by ARCHIE 3 have any interest in keeping the Slugorth away?

Absolutely but ARCHIE 3 couldn't do anythng but sit back and wait for the carnage to clear if Atlantis decided to move. His resources are just too small.

If anyone in canon could win against Atlantis in the long term it would be ARCHIE 3 but that game would take generations unless something specific happened that might make Splynncryth decide he's not interested in Rifts Earth. Short term Splynncryth just has too many resources at his disposal.

WildWalker

Splynncrtyh's resources on Atlantis alone -which amounts to little more than a garrison force compared to his total might -is more than the entire, estimated population of Rifts Earth.

Forces that still have to eat, travel in-theatre to North America, and operate in a slave economy. As has been pointed out, nearly every time this topic comes up, the absoulte number of troops is less important than the number that can be deployed to fight.

Magic can overcome almost any obstical your even thinking of ..

Eating .. the spell Sustain built into suits of armor is a trivial thing for Atlantis to do an if done by a mage at 10th lvl or higher thats long enough (1 casting) to keep them fed threw out an entire invasion ..

Teleportation, Pyrmid tech and circle magic as well as technological transportation on the scale the CS could never match is something that is common for Atlantis ..

There is quite literally nothing the CS could do to stop an Atlantis sept flat out say ok I give up ..

[Kovoston]

Yeecch,

Things are not looking good for the Coalition at all. Splugorth, The Republicans, the Xitix (sp?), the vampires in the Southeast and the demons from the rifts. all insanely encroaching on them like a plague...

Nasty situation! They have very little in their corner except TRIAX possibly...

[Colt47]

<snip>
Wouldn't the Shamirrian (sp?) Nation backed by ARCHIE 3 have any interest in keeping the Slugorth away?

Absolutely but ARCHIE 3 couldn't do anythng but sit back and wait for the carnage to clear if Atlantis decided to move. His resources are just too small.

If anyone in canon could win against Atlantis in the long term it would be ARCHIE 3 but that game would take generations unless something specific happened that might make Splynncryth decide he's not interested in Rifts Earth. Short term Splynncryth just has too many resources at his disposal.

WildWalker

Splynncrtyh's resources on Atlantis alone -which amounts to little more than a garrison force compared to his total might -is more than the entire, estimated population of Rifts Earth.

Forces that still have to eat, travel in-theatre to North America, and operate in a slave economy. As has been pointed out, nearly every time this topic comes up, the absoulte number of troops is less important than the number that can be deployed to fight.

Magic can overcome almost any obstical your even thinking of ..

Eating .. the spell Sustain built into suits of armor is a trivial thing for Atlantis to do an if done by a mage at 10th lvl or higher thats long enough (1 casting) to keep them fed threw out an entire invasion ..

Teleportation, Pyrmid tech and circle magic as well as technological transportation on the scale the CS could never match is something that is common for Atlantis ..

There is quite literally nothing the CS could do to stop an Atlantis sept flat out say ok I give up ..

In this situation the main problem is the amount of time it would take to mobilize and actually attack without having someone or something get in the way. It's one thing if a relatively small nation of humans moves and attacks another small nation of humans, and it's a completely different beast when it comes to a major player in the 3 galaxies mobilizing. Heck, even a SMALL force from old Splynny would set off alarms all over the place. Alarms as in "HOLY (censored word)! Get to the battle stations I think Splyncryth just went to WAR!"

[DhAkael]

Get rid of their script immunity...next stupid question

[Corinth]

That would only work on a small scale. Once you became a serious irritant, you'd be dead. Because the vet/farmer/seed bank worker you thought you were attacking turned out to be CS Special Forces with significant reinforcements, and artillery, seconds away.

If, and only if, the government can connect the operator to the events. This should not be assumed. Neither should the response be assumed. A convincing argument must be made that this would be the case, and I see none forthcoming. Far more likely is that the response would be to call out local militia, at which point the operator ceases operations in that locality and moves on to another place to resume operations elsewhere. I think you severely underestimate the effectiveness that a merely reduced, not destroyed, output of agricultural production would have on a society. It would not take much, or many, operators to accomplish this and the Coalition States has cultural, institutional and political roadblocks that impede the reaction time of any such counter-intelligence; as-written, operating like this gets inside the Coalition's Cycle of Decision and thus seizes the initiative- probably for far longer than you assume to be the case.

[cornholioprime]

<snip>
Wouldn't the Shamirrian (sp?) Nation backed by ARCHIE 3 have any interest in keeping the Slugorth away?

Absolutely but ARCHIE 3 couldn't do anythng but sit back and wait for the carnage to clear if Atlantis decided to move. His resources are just too small.

If anyone in canon could win against Atlantis in the long term it would be ARCHIE 3 but that game would take generations unless something specific happened that might make Splynncryth decide he's not interested in Rifts Earth. Short term Splynncryth just has too many resources at his disposal.

WildWalker

Splynncrtyh's resources on Atlantis alone -which amounts to little more than a garrison force compared to his total might -is more than the entire, estimated population of Rifts Earth.

Forces that still have to eat, travel in-theatre to North America, and operate in a slave economy. As has been pointed out, nearly every time this topic comes up, the absoulte number of troops is less important than the number that can be deployed to fight.

I'm pretty sure they can just teleport a couple mages where the need to go and open up some rifts. Transportation and resupply won't be an issue.

Not to mention that an incredibly high percentage of his troops are True Supernatural creatures -and as such, don't need to eat.

[Steeler49er]

Yeecch,

Things are not looking good for the Coalition at all. Splugorth, The Republicans, the Xitix (sp?), the vampires in the Southeast and the demons from the rifts. all insanely encroaching on them like a plague...

Nasty situation! They have very little in their corner except TRIAX possibly...

Well said. Colombia & NGR could both be the turning points in any war.

►'Xiticix'

[Lenwen]

Magic can overcome almost any obstical your even thinking of ..

Eating .. the spell Sustain built into suits of armor is a trivial thing for Atlantis to do an if done by a mage at 10th lvl or higher thats long enough (1 casting) to keep them fed threw out an entire invasion ..

Teleportation, Pyrmid tech and circle magic as well as technological transportation on the scale the CS could never match is something that is common for Atlantis ..

There is quite literally nothing the CS could do to stop an Atlantis sept flat out say ok I give up ..

In this situation the main problem is the amount of time it would take to mobilize and actually attack without having someone or something get in the way. It's one thing if a relatively small nation of humans moves and attacks another small nation of humans, and it's a completely different beast when it comes to a major player in the 3 galaxies mobilizing. Heck, even a SMALL force from old Splynny would set off alarms all over the place. Alarms as in "HOLY (censored word)! Get to the battle stations I think Splyncryth just went to WAR!"

Atlantis could mobilize and invade north america .. literally days or weeks before its EVER .. spread around just Rifts earth that he already had taken over North America. And months before it would ever reach anyone powerful enough to do anything about it in the 3 Galaxies ..

All it takes for transportation is teleportation .. Circle magic, the Spell .. heck pyramid and other means would be able to transport as many troops as needed literally anywhere in North America within minutes ..

Why is it soo many tech fans .. want to try to downplay the tactical advantage of being able to bring to bere literally any numerical number needed for force projection when it comes to Teleportation ?

Is it cause technology can not do the same thing ? I really do not understand this ..

Neither do I understand why people try to say "Feeding" a military that large would be a logistical nightmare when in fact TW rings could be made with the spell Sustain on it .. and with a 10th lvl caster that means 10 days of not needing food or drink of any kind ..

Why do people act like just those two spells are not enough to downsize the logistical footprint of a supply arm of said force into something ridiculously small ..

[Steeler49er]

As to the magic angle...

Let's Never forget the Astral Plain!
Imagine this, you have 10,000 loyal Tolkeenites all willing to help you build one very large astral plain.
Give it the following;
• Insta transmission: This means that ANYONE who ever even contributes even one Perm PPE to the realms creation can insta port there at any time. Meaning an injured solider/mage/psychic... etc. dissapears one second and comes back healthy the next.
• Enhanced time: You can buff this astral plain kingdom puppy up as far as you like, ie one minute passes on RIFTS and one year passes in the astral plain.
•Endless sprawl: You can create a kindom the size of a galaxy. That would take anyone creating it years to pull off so it is Not likely to ever get that big but, you could Still create a HUGE factory city and given the speed that machines of war (Magical/psionic/Mundain hightech) can be created, or soliders can be trained... The CS would HAVE TO do the same thing or they'd see the Tolkeen army grow over night.

Yeah ouch.

[Kovoston]

Yeecch,

Things are not looking good for the Coalition at all. Splugorth, The Republicans, the Xitix (sp?), the vampires in the Southeast and the demons from the rifts. all insanely encroaching on them like a plague...

Nasty situation! They have very little in their corner except TRIAX possibly...

Well said. Colombia & NGR could both be the turning points in any war.

►'Xiticix'

Thanks! I didn't want to call them bugs cause that's technically another critter in the Megaverse...

[dragonfett]

Atlantis could mobilize and invade north america .. literally days or weeks before its EVER .. spread around just Rifts earth that he already had taken over North America. And months before it would ever reach anyone powerful enough to do anything about it in the 3 Galaxies ..

All it takes for transportation is teleportation .. Circle magic, the Spell .. heck pyramid and other means would be able to transport as many troops as needed literally anywhere in North America within minutes ..

Why is it soo many tech fans .. want to try to downplay the tactical advantage of being able to bring to bere literally any numerical number needed for force projection when it comes to Teleportation ?

Is it cause technology can not do the same thing ? I really do not understand this ..

Neither do I understand why people try to say "Feeding" a military that large would be a logistical nightmare when in fact TW rings could be made with the spell Sustain on it .. and with a 10th lvl caster that means 10 days of not needing food or drink of any kind ..

Why do people act like just those two spells are not enough to downsize the logistical footprint of a supply arm of said force into something ridiculously small ..

To transport that large of a force, you would likely need an almost equal force of spell casters to because there are really two big limiting factors. Knowledge of the proper spells (not every sell caster will know the proper spells, and the ones who do know are not likely to give up the knowledge easily). PPE is the other limiting factor. Spell casters obviously only have a limited supply, and while they can draw upon additional PPE while on a Ley Line or a Nexus, but this can only be once per melee round, so if they are casting incantations they would still burn through their PPE reserves quickly, or if doing it as a ritual where they can siphon off the PPE over time, each casting will take a long time to complete. Now if they had spell casters who didn't have the knowledge of the proper spells assisting by donating their PPE for the cause and other things, it might be more feasible, but it would still take a lot to move so many.

And as for the TW Rings of Sustain. They can't be made, at least not as a ring. All TW items must have a form that relates to the item's function. This is why you don't have TW cannons made from washing machines (not that it isn't possible, but it is really difficult according to the TW Construction rules on page 130 of the RUE). There is no technological item that I am aware of that you can wear that feeds people or makes food or anything along those lines. Now I could see TW Microwaves or pots that are made to create food that will be just a nutritious as eating a normal meal for that species (i.e. a slice of pizza is made for a human where as a Simvan would get a raw human limb). All that would be needed would be water and the PPE to activate the microwave. I would also give the food made by the TW Microwave healing properties. I would also have Metamorphosis: Animal, Human, and Insect to cover all the different types of sustainable food that a particular species might need to eat. I will draw up the schematics for the TW Microwave, but it would be a tall order to make enough of them to support the size of force you guys are talking about.

[Steeler49er]

And as for the TW Rings of Sustain. They can't be made, at least not as a ring. All TW items must have a form that relates to the item's function. This is why you don't have TW cannons made from washing machines (not that it isn't possible, but it is really difficult according to the TW Construction rules on page 130 of the RUE). There is no technological item that I am aware of that you can wear that feeds people or makes food or anything along those lines. Now I could see TW Microwaves or pots that are made to create food that will be just a nutritious as eating a normal meal for that species (i.e. a slice of pizza is made for a human where as a Simvan would get a raw human limb). All that would be needed would be water and the PPE to activate the microwave. I would also give the food made by the TW Microwave healing properties. I would also have Metamorphosis: Animal, Human, and Insect to cover all the different types of sustainable food that a particular species might need to eat. I will draw up the schematics for the TW Microwave, but it would be a tall order to make enough of them to support the size of force you guys are talking about.

You got that pretty close DragonF but he was right, you could create TW rings or whatever shape you desire in time.

TW in northamerica is in it's infancy right now, as such TWizzaeds must still use objects shaped like the spell in some way... But that is all psychological and you can put a fireball spell into a mechanical tooth brish if you just realize that fact (not that most TWizzards ever will). There've been plenty of times that TW items didn't meet the appearance of the spell and that only happens when you come across smarter Tech wizzards.

However, even using old school 'TW creation rules' where you must have an object related to the spell, the Sustain spell wouldn't need to worry about being a large porta-kitchen cuz... The SUSTAIN spell is not a "Food createion spell", it is an intravenous spell, it feeds magical energies Directly into your body w/o actual need for food consumption (It bypasses the stomach all together). It does Not need to be fixed to an EZY-Bake oven, a microwave, a Frigidaire, or the like since it does not create food. Those objects you listed would work better with the already existent series of food spells like Create Bread and Milk, Create Banquet, or even Create Water. The Sustain spell would only need a hospital iv hooked up to a bracelet and the whole gizmo would end up looking more like the arm parts of a juicer harness (which actually looks cool).


So you can still occassionaly have neat'o' looking TW devices.


BUT that said, you shouldn't even need such an object since Any smart military (and up untill KS wanted to get rid of them, tolkeen was most definatly smart) would try and keep this spell in the hands of those in charge since that creates loyalty (the need to eat does that sometimes) because you'd need to keep coming back to your CO who grants you your daily bread. Not saying that Tolkeen wouldn't do it but, it save money and can breed loyalty when just used in spell form.

FYI-Adding the Energize Spell (i think that's it's name) doubles the duration of the Sustain spell so that even a level 5 ₪00ß could cast Sustain and have it last over a week.
But wait... There's more.
Most casters of this spell would try most often to cast it close or near a leyline or nexus point. This means that you (a fifth level green) could easily cast this spell over a platoon and they'd not need to eat for a full month.
level 5+Energize Spell+Nexus=30days.

Smarter (level7+) C.O.'s would use those Galantrium rings combined with the "Ritual Casting" and or the "Group Casting" Sorcerer's Proficiencies combined with a MASS CAST variant version of the Sustain spell and just cast it on a bunch of guys once ever LVL7 x [2 galantrum RINGS] X [2from Energize Spell] x [3Nexus] x [2Ritual cast] x [10 Group Casting] 840+/-days...
or 4½years!
And you could go further if you really wanted to.


Magic SHOULD tump the tech of the CS but, KS expressed (in subtle wording) from Book One [RMB] that he intended to have the CS get rid of Tolkeen and that He [KS] never intended to give them a chance to win because the CS is KS home fries and that is that (hence why when asked a million times for maps of Tolkeen, he never gave them, but he gave maps of places that you'd never even go instead). I've known this since 89' when the book came out, but Even I after reading that in RMB realized that it was illogical for the CS to win simply cuz, once I realized that Magic was just ULTRA advanced tech/science, I realized that the CS was simplely gonna be out classed.

KS realized this Only as he begun writting up the SoT story line... And that is why (near the end once KS realized that Tolkeen was gonna win) he Forced an illogical unlikely end to tolkeen... In other words he made them all of a sudden start to look like bad guys so that you'd stop feeling sorrry for Tolkeen, them he forced them to take a Dive.


Tolkeen Never had a chance!

[Shark_Force]

Magic can overcome almost any obstical your even thinking of ..

Eating .. the spell Sustain built into suits of armor is a trivial thing for Atlantis to do an if done by a mage at 10th lvl or higher thats long enough (1 casting) to keep them fed threw out an entire invasion ..

Teleportation, Pyrmid tech and circle magic as well as technological transportation on the scale the CS could never match is something that is common for Atlantis ..

There is quite literally nothing the CS could do to stop an Atlantis sept flat out say ok I give up ..

In this situation the main problem is the amount of time it would take to mobilize and actually attack without having someone or something get in the way. It's one thing if a relatively small nation of humans moves and attacks another small nation of humans, and it's a completely different beast when it comes to a major player in the 3 galaxies mobilizing. Heck, even a SMALL force from old Splynny would set off alarms all over the place. Alarms as in "HOLY (censored word)! Get to the battle stations I think Splyncryth just went to WAR!"

Atlantis could mobilize and invade north america .. literally days or weeks before its EVER .. spread around just Rifts earth that he already had taken over North America. And months before it would ever reach anyone powerful enough to do anything about it in the 3 Galaxies ..

All it takes for transportation is teleportation .. Circle magic, the Spell .. heck pyramid and other means would be able to transport as many troops as needed literally anywhere in North America within minutes ..

Why is it soo many tech fans .. want to try to downplay the tactical advantage of being able to bring to bere literally any numerical number needed for force projection when it comes to Teleportation ?

Is it cause technology can not do the same thing ? I really do not understand this ..

Neither do I understand why people try to say "Feeding" a military that large would be a logistical nightmare when in fact TW rings could be made with the spell Sustain on it .. and with a 10th lvl caster that means 10 days of not needing food or drink of any kind ..

Why do people act like just those two spells are not enough to downsize the logistical footprint of a supply arm of said force into something ridiculously small ..

you also forgot that (assuming a large army of high-PPE beings) the largely magical/supernatural/TW-equipped nature of the army means a massively reduced need for resupply of physical items such as ammunition, armor, and medical supplies (that is, a meztla is probably about equivalent to a CS tank in a straight-up fight, give or take. however, a metzla will fix itself in short order, and never runs out of ammunition, while a tank must go in for repairs and get fresh missile and railgun ammunition). so it's actually even more ridiculously in favor of atlantis.

(i'm finding it odd that people are going crazy over a caster being able to 'only' cast a teleport spell every few rounds though by charging up ley line energy over time. a level 2-3 shifter can know most of the advanced teleport spells, and so what if he can 'only' cast it once every few melee rounds to transport hundreds of soldiers at a time. that is still so ludicrously far ahead of what technology could do that it's like objecting that you've pitted a cricket vs a large iguana, and instead demanding that it be a cricket vs a lizard that is only 50-60 times the size of the cricket instead of the iguana that is probably thousands of times as large or more. either way, it's a ridiculously unfair fight that will pretty much never have the outcome of the cricket winning)

[Lenwen]

To transport that large of a force, you would likely need an almost equal force of spell casters to because there are really two big limiting factors. Knowledge of the proper spells (not every sell caster will know the proper spells, and the ones who do know are not likely to give up the knowledge easily). PPE is the other limiting factor.

Wrong on both accounts. Were talking about atlantis .. the place where you can get anything an in some cases in near unlimited amounts of supplies ..

1 - Scrolls of Teleportation (greater) would be trivial to find and buy .. And lets be honest Lord Splynn gets a major cut of everything sold so if he wanted he could quite literally just take the required amount of scrolls to achieve the outcome .. again .. this is trivial for him.

2 - Each spell of Teleportation (greater) can bring the mage and 1,000lbs with him, up to 20ft away .. That means if you use the spell reduce self .. thats going to be literally DOZENS of beings can be teleported per mage ..

3 - Circle Magic : You can literally make each circle miles in diameter (on both ends) to accomedate the need to teleport hundreds of thousands of troops for the casting of a single pair of faerie wings .. up to 1800 miles from one circle to the other .. which places every single Coalition held Fortress city and territory well within the reach of the Circle teleportation.

4 - Lord Splynn himself could open a Deific portal from Atlantis to ANYWHERE .. and no one an nothing will be able to close it sept himself .. instantly transporting unlimited troops threw it in mere seconds ..

5 - Pyrmid Teleportation to anywhere where there is another Pyrmid .. again unlimited numbers of Troops rather trivial aspect of atlantis's to use to put troops into theater ..

This does not take into account any possible bonus's from ley lines or nexus points or being one type of caster over another for the casting of teleportation style spells .. this is just as common as it gets

Spell casters obviously only have a limited supply, and while they can draw upon additional PPE while on a Ley Line or a Nexus, but this can only be once per melee round, so if they are casting incantations they would still burn through their PPE reserves quickly, or if doing it as a ritual where they can siphon off the PPE over time, each casting will take a long time to complete. Now if they had spell casters who didn't have the knowledge of the proper spells assisting by donating their PPE for the cause and other things, it might be more feasible, but it would still take a lot to move so many.

Again see my numerical ways to circumvent the whole PPE problem ..

And as for the TW Rings of Sustain. They can't be made, at least not as a ring it would be a tall order to make enough of them to support the size of force you guys are talking about.

Not only can they be made as a ring .. but it would again be a trivial thing for Atlantis to produce such items..

Just because you refuse to believe Atlantis is capable enough to produce said item .. does not mean they can not make them. And in the quantities needed to sustain a military force of this size.

And if you want to go conventional .. with transportation of troops .. They can literally deliver 17,036 troops into threater with just 1 Taskmaster ship ..

Atlantis has more capability then you give them credit for .. it would appear to me .

[dragonfett]

1 - Scrolls of Teleportation (greater) would be trivial to find and buy .. And lets be honest Lord Splynn gets a major cut of everything sold so if he wanted he could quite literally just take the required amount of scrolls to achieve the outcome .. again .. this is trivial for him.

Do you even know how much a scroll costs? I don't, but from the description of them in the RUE, where it talks about the different ways that a spell caster can acquire spells it states that scrolls are rare, partially due to the illiteracy in Rifts Earth but ALSO because many mages are paranoid of other mages finding the scroll and learning the spell for themselves. So I take this as scrolls of a particular spell will cost at the very least twice what you would have to pay for the spell. In the same section, just before where it talks about other ways of getting spells, it talks about how much it costs to buy spells of a given level. To buy a level ten spell (not a scroll, just the spell) costs a million credits. It doesn't list the price of any spell of higher level, however at the geometric rate of increase, it would seem to me that the cost of one level 15 spell (which is what level Teleportation Superior is), should cost in the neighborhood of 10 million credits. So for just one scroll, it would cost 20 million credits to buy (before taking into account any discounts that Splynncryth is getting). I am making a guess that he would need at least 100 of the scrolls to teleport his force (considering the average size of each troop and the numbers we are talking about to successfully take of North America). We're talking about a minimum of 2 billion credits just on the transportation alone! That's not paying the army, or buys and maintain the weapons and power armors and other vehicles, that is just the transportation! He may have trillions upon trillions of credits, but that would probably make him stop really think hard on his reasons for invading North America.

3 - Circle Magic : You can literally make each circle miles in diameter (on both ends) to accomedate the need to teleport hundreds of thousands of troops for the casting of a single pair of faerie wings .. up to 1800 miles from one circle to the other .. which places every single Coalition held Fortress city and territory well within the reach of the Circle teleportation.

4 - Lord Splynn himself could open a Deific portal from Atlantis to ANYWHERE .. and no one an nothing will be able to close it sept himself .. instantly transporting unlimited troops threw it in mere seconds ..

5 - Pyrmid Teleportation to anywhere where there is another Pyrmid .. again unlimited numbers of Troops rather trivial aspect of atlantis's to use to put troops into theater ..

That very well may be. I honestly don't know much about circle magic, Lord Splynn himself except for the fact he's big and ugly, or pyramids except for their ability to control and regulate ley lines with them (and I am not even 75% sure of that). IIRC however, the only reason Lord Splynn has not taken over Rifts Earth yet is that too many other super powers want control of Rifts Earth and everyone of them would unite and fight the Lord Splynn tooth and nail to get him off the planet.

Not only can they be made as a ring .. but it would again be a trivial thing for Atlantis to produce such items..

First off, what book is it stated that a TW item form does not matter. You are the second person to say this and I would like to have my facts strait. I was working off of the TW Construction rules in the RUE because those are the only ones that I know somewhat well.

Secondly, I was under the impression that TW outside of North America is virtually non-existent (not counting the United Worlds of Warlock where I have no idea whether or not they use a lot of TW items).

Thirdly, if it were so trivial for Atlantis to do something like that, why haven't they done so already? Obviously it is not nearly as trivial as you make it out to be.

[cornholioprime]

There seems to be some sort of confusion regarding a device that has the spell "Sustain" in it.

It wouldn't be a TW item, it would be an ordinary, enchanted item. Big difference.

By comparison, a VERY easy item to make -for those Minions of the Splugorth who have to eat at all.


And for the people wondering about Transportation of mass numbers of troops: the Pyramids of Atlantis, and the Ley Line Nexi that they sit on, easily facilitate the opening of Rifts, which, as most of us know, can be pretty much ANY size the caster wants.

[Lenwen]

1 - Scrolls of Teleportation (greater) would be trivial to find and buy .. And lets be honest Lord Splynn gets a major cut of everything sold so if he wanted he could quite literally just take the required amount of scrolls to achieve the outcome .. again .. this is trivial for him.

Do you even know how much a scroll costs? I don't, but from the description of them in the RUE, where it talks about the different ways that a spell caster can acquire spells it states that scrolls are rare, partially due to the illiteracy in Rifts Earth but ALSO because many mages are paranoid of other mages finding the scroll and learning the spell for themselves. So I take this as scrolls of a particular spell will cost at the very least twice what you would have to pay for the spell. In the same section, just before where it talks about other ways of getting spells, it talks about how much it costs to buy spells of a given level. To buy a level ten spell (not a scroll, just the spell) costs a million credits. It doesn't list the price of any spell of higher level, however at the geometric rate of increase, it would seem to me that the cost of one level 15 spell (which is what level Teleportation Superior is), should cost in the neighborhood of 10 million credits. So for just one scroll, it would cost 20 million credits to buy (before taking into account any discounts that Splynncryth is getting). I am making a guess that he would need at least 100 of the scrolls to teleport his force (considering the average size of each troop and the numbers we are talking about to successfully take of North America). We're talking about a minimum of 2 billion credits just on the transportation alone! That's not paying the army, or buys and maintain the weapons and power armors and other vehicles, that is just the transportation! He may have trillions upon trillions of credits, but that would probably make him stop really think hard on his reasons for invading North America.

Again .. something you are trying hard to avoid talking about ..

Lord Splynn OWNS atlantis .. if he wants it so .. Every single mage on the continent could produce 1 scroll a day for the next year .. and it would cost Lord Splynn absolutly nothing if he chooses to say its for government use .. ergo its your creation you are "giving" to the cause...

Why would Lord Splynn charge himself for scolls ?

Come on now your not even remotely making sense now ..

[Mack]

Again .. something you are trying hard to avoid talking about ..

Lord Splynn OWNS atlantis .. if he wants it so .. Every single mage on the continent could produce 1 scroll a day for the next year .. and it would cost Lord Splynn absolutly nothing if he chooses to say its for government use .. ergo its your creation you are "giving" to the cause...

Why would Lord Splynn charge himself for scolls ?

Come on now your not even remotely making sense now ..

Discuss the topic, not the poster. If you can't do that, don't post.

[dragonfett]

There seems to be some sort of confusion regarding a device that has the spell "Sustain" in it.

It wouldn't be a TW item, it would be an ordinary, enchanted item. Big difference.

By comparison, a VERY easy item to make -for those Minions of the Splugorth who have to eat at all.

Where are the rules for creating enchanted items and exactly how would any item with the spell Sustain in it be considered an enchanted item? I would like to know to look over them so that if ever play a mage who can make enchanted items, I know what the rules are to do so.

Again .. something you are trying hard to avoid talking about ..

Lord Splynn OWNS atlantis .. if he wants it so .. Every single mage on the continent could produce 1 scroll a day for the next year .. and it would cost Lord Splynn absolutly nothing if he chooses to say its for government use .. ergo its your creation you are "giving" to the cause...

Why would Lord Splynn charge himself for scolls ?

Sorry about that. I wasn't avoiding it purposely, but you had said that the scrolls would be trivial for him to find and buy and I was just trying to make a point about that specific thing. When I get on a rant, I have a bad habit of losing sight of other possibilities and for that, I apologize. Yes he very well could do that, but he won't because he doesn't what the headache that would come with trying to hold Rifts Earth.

[Lenwen]

Again .. something you are trying hard to avoid talking about ..

Lord Splynn OWNS atlantis .. if he wants it so .. Every single mage on the continent could produce 1 scroll a day for the next year .. and it would cost Lord Splynn absolutly nothing if he chooses to say its for government use .. ergo its your creation you are "giving" to the cause...

Why would Lord Splynn charge himself for scolls ?

Yes he very well could do that, but he won't because he doesn't what the headache that would come with trying to hold Rifts Earth.

I underlined the part of your side of the discussion due to what people always used to say if he steps one foot off of Atlantis every "Power that be" will be there to kick his butt right back onto the island ..

Yet .. Here we are currently with Lord Splynn actually building up multiple major bases around the world .. there are no less then 3 Bases of his now two in North America, 1 in Europe and 1 in the new Phoenix empire I believe tho I could be wrong on the last one.

And still .. no "Powers that be" are there to kick his butt back to Atlantis .. so I know for a fact the whole "Headache" of keeping Rifts earth is not whats holding him back ..

[cornholioprime]

There seems to be some sort of confusion regarding a device that has the spell "Sustain" in it.

It wouldn't be a TW item, it would be an ordinary, enchanted item. Big difference.

By comparison, a VERY easy item to make -for those Minions of the Splugorth who have to eat at all.

Where are the rules for creating enchanted items and exactly how would any item with the spell Sustain in it be considered an enchanted item? I would like to know to look over them so that if ever play a mage who can make enchanted items, I know what the rules are to do so.

Technically speaking, an item is enchanted with one or more spells if those spells are in the same device but work INDEPENDENTLY of one another.

Therefore, a "reprogrammed," enchanted Eye of Eylor can cast 'Armor of Ithan' OR 'Invulnerability' OR 'Teleport: Lesser' and so on and so on.

A Techno-Wizardy item, on the other hand, mixes different Spells to get a brand new effect and/or involves more mechanics than what is required to simply call on the enchantment in a given magic item -for example, a TW gun that fires a "glob" of Magic Net at targets with the press of a trigger that 'detonates' on impact, as opposed to reading a scroll or casting a spell, and which behaves differently than the usual casting of said net. Or a TW item that combines 'Create Wood' and 'Sub-Particle Acceleration' to make a potentially deadly weapon (at least to vampires) with potentially infinite amounts of ammo.

There are no canon "Creation Rules" for an Enchanted Item that I know of, but those devices are extremely common on Planet Palladium, and Item Enchanters (would we call them 'Artificers?') exist to a greatly limited extent in places like Splynn (see Rifts 21: Splynn Dimensional Market). The balance, of course, is that the creation of these items are extremely expensive -but often worth it in the long run ("Ring of Create Meal Once Daily, anyone? Only 200,000 Gold, and a bargain at twice the price!")

I get the feeling that Kevin and Co. doesn't want enchanted items to be that plentiful in the Rifts setting; in the Palladium World, it seems as if you can't so much as stick your arm out to the side without hitting somebody who has an enchanted item of their own.

[Steeler49er]

The balance, of course, is that the creation of these items are extremely expensive -but often worth it in the long run ("Ring of Create Meal Once Daily, anyone? Only 200,000 Gold, and a bargain at twice the price!")

I get the feeling that Kevin and Co. doesn't want enchanted items to be that plentiful in the Rifts setting; in the Palladium World, it seems as if you can't so much as stick your arm out to the side without hitting somebody who has an enchanted item of their own.

So true... So Very darn true!

Not only can they be made as a ring .. but it would again be a trivial thing for Atlantis to produce such items..

First off, what book is it stated that a TW item form does not matter. You are the second person to say this and I would like to have my facts strait. I was working off of the TW Construction rules in the RUE because those are the only ones that I know somewhat well.

Secondly, I was under the impression that TW outside of North America is virtually non-existent (not counting the United Worlds of Warlock where I have no idea whether or not they use a lot of TW items).

Thirdly, if it were so trivial for Atlantis to do something like that, why haven't they done so already? Obviously it is not nearly as trivial as you make it out to be.

To answer your first question: No. I never said that "the form (for a TW device) doesn't matter", what I said In its' Entirety, was that (and paraphrasing) "That it matters to the people of Rifts as a matter of Focus, but In The Long Term it is Nothing more than a Psychologic crutch"... And KS has said as much many times over the years. "Magic Can do anything!" Once you figure out how to do so, BUT magic is Also based on "Belief" and if You the caster 'Think you can't' then you simply can't...
And the Majority think they can't.

As to the form... Even a Normal Rifts TWizzard could (once they figure it out they can do this) Must realize that "If the magic for a TW device HAS TO be placed into an Object that can represent the spells function (IE a TW food making machine could be made out of a microwave OR a Frigidaire... OR being an Important word here) then doesn't then that "OR" mean that I can 'Choose' which one I use, and if so doesn't that imply that it is All in my head? More over, even if it WASN'T in my head, what is to stop me from using an Alien or Advanced 'Micro-Tech' food replicator (that looks suprisingly like a Bracelet) as the focus for my TW Food maker?
Answer is by your own admittion, Nothing is to stop said TWizzard.
Thus the question becomes "if the form of a food creating machine can be made (Through tech) to look like anything, then aren't I just splitting hairs by obsessing over the actual shape?"...

So again, No the shape Does NOT matter in reallity, YES the shape Does matter to the Mage how psyched themselves out into Believing that it did so.

QUESTION TWO: Yes, TW items Are rare outside of Northamerica, And Splynn, And Africa, AND South America, AND Austrailia... Which ALL have TW tech and use it.
The Gator People of Aussie Land (forget their name off hand) use TW tech. The Phoenix empire of Africa uses TW tech. Splynn uses TW tech all over the place. Many outh American Nations use TW tech, some a little, some allot (See the cover of South America One for a Big example of TW cybernetics).
Other wise... Sure it is used and made very little around the rest of the RIFTS Earth World... But that is because every race, town, city, and nation seems to have found their own form of Personalized tech to get by and not every one relies on Magic, thus Techno-Wizzardry won't fly (Can't fly as those nations don't do the Wizzardry part of the equasion). The same is true of Magic nations that don't Like, don't know of, or simply can not create Tech (To poor?)... thus the "Tech" part of that equasion is not viable.
So Heck yeah TW is rare, but Only to a point.

As to the UWW (United Warlock Worlds)... Yes they use TWizzardry.
ALLOT. In fact, all of the Dwarven Space/Warships of their space fleet are TW.
And TW is found on many other worlds in many other Dimensions.
You can Find TW being made in the following dimensions in fact:
•Wormwood (TW is the techno life blood of the people there)
•Robotech Sentinels (All of the Mystic Peryton races tech is Techno Wizzardry, and None of it is limited to Shape)
•Manhunter (The Void nuts use it as cybernetics)
•Nightspawn (a form of TW exists in the way of CyberMagic)...
•Heroes/Aliens Unlimited (many times you'll find TW in the hands of alien races, and even some humans of earth use it)
•The gods of Olympus use some TW in their Dimension.
So NO... TW is Not so rare on Other worlds.
Yes it is still quite rare in comparison to normal tech or Normal magic.
Yes it is still not a proliferated thing in Much of the Rifts Earth world.
An lastly, It IS inferior to Enchanted Objects in many beings eyes, when you can Simply pull off an hour long ritual to enchant an object, vs a weeks long Costly endeavor of making TW tech.
Then again, unlike Palladium where (As was so Awesomely put above by cornholioprime) enchantment tech is found everywhere, enchantment is all but Non-existent in Rifts and TW is the best around.


THIRD QUESTION:
What Splynn "CAN do" and what Splynncryth "CHOOSES to do" are always gonna be two differant things. It has Clearly been elaborated on that (for instance) in the case of Rifts earth, Splynncryth Can take over the WHOLE Earth (After all, why couldn't he when he controlls three whole other Star systems and comands Vast armies of TRILLIONS of Kyden Power lords), but it has Also been Clearly stated that Splynn would see this as a "Pointless and costly" planetary wide occupation. More over is that Splynn wants Rifts earth to be a Giant "Hunting Preserve" and Vacation spot for his clientele!

IF Splynny wishes to do anything (take over the world, become a god, fight against evil in all places everywhere) he can easily do so, but he clearly remembers "THE WAR" a million+/- years ago where he and his kind got their arsis handed to them by "The Forces of Light" and a Replay is not what he is into. He's got loads of patience, is immortal, wants to have fun and plat Power games, and Doesn't want to go "Insane with power" like Xy and his crew did. Thus he can take over the megaverse as Slllllooooowwwwllllyyy as he chooses.

All good GREAT reasons to play the game right.

[Shark_Force]

techno-wizardry is *described* as being rare, and being only in one place, and that place is supposedly the birthplace. that being said, it's all over the place. it's in south america and is the basis of much of the atlantean forces, it's in japan (known to certain ninja clans who hunt down anyone else who figures it out), it's in australia (used by a race with no actual regular technology afaict, it's in europe (used by the gargoyles), it's in the three galaxies, it's known to the splugorth... even the xiticix, instinct-driven humanoid insects, have techno-wizardry. i'm not convinced the term "rare" should even be applied to techno-wizardry even, because apparently an absolutely ridiculous number of different cultures with vastly different technology levels have managed to develop it on their own, which only makes it rare compared to stuff that is extremely common (like "matter" or "energy"), as far as i'm concerned.

the setting they have created tells me something about how rare techno-wizardry *actually* is, and the something it tells me is that it isn't really very rare at all, because just about everyone has techno-wizardry devices or else something so exactly like it in every way that it is indistinguishable.

[Steeler49er]

i'm not convinced the term "rare" should even be applied to techno-wizardry even, because apparently an absolutely ridiculous number of different cultures with vastly different technology levels have managed to develop it on their own, which only makes it rare compared to stuff that is extremely common (like "matter" or "energy"), as far as i'm concerned.

Rarer words never been spoken!



I just busted a gut

[Kovoston]

Just a simple Hypothesis...
If there are so many rifts (and openings in spacetime) in the Megaverse, perhaps that is why Techno-Wizardy is so widespread?

How many D-Bees steal such technology?
Ley Lines are supposed to be in many points in time and space... In weak and strong states.

[Steeler49er]

Just a simple Hypothesis...
If there are so many rifts (and openings in spacetime) in the Megaverse, perhaps that is why Techno-Wizardy is so widespread?

How many D-Bees steal such technology?
Ley Lines are supposed to be in many points in time and space... In weak and strong states.

WOH...

I'm sorry but, the very idea that "D-Bees" are "Stealing Technology" as the reason that TW is so wide spread Reeks of a Human Supremistic thought pattern. Based on your "Hypothesis", it was humans who invented TW and Other races are just too dang stupid to come up with such a "Simple Concept" such as TW. Unless you think us humans to be the Smack bomb of awesomeness and that all other beings in the universe are beholdn unto man for invention, This is theory is just plain crazy.

In fact, unless you assume that a (or many) D-bees traveled, not just through space but TIME itself, and went to every race ever known to possess TW in the present and gave them TW, your idea is just Not possible...
Since TW has been in use through-out the Megaverse since LONG before 150years ago Rifts time.

[Rallan]

4D Transformation. They've got nothing.

But as folks have pointed out with jokes about script immunity, you can't beat the CS. It's Kevin Siembieda's baby, which means that no matter how cartoonishly dumb its villainous leaders get they won't drive the nation into ruin, and now matter how cartoonishly menacing the threat they face, a combination of derring-do (that's impossible by hte game rules) and pulling impossibly vast amounts of resources out of their butts will save the day. They've already pulled so much stuff out of their butts to explain why the Siege on Tolkeen storyline lasted for more than half a book that it's got to the point where even Lord Splynncryth would have a hard time taking down the CS.

[Lenwen]

4D Transformation. They've got nothing.

But as folks have pointed out with jokes about script immunity, you can't beat the CS. It's Kevin Siembieda's baby, which means that no matter how cartoonishly dumb its villainous leaders get they won't drive the nation into ruin, and now matter how cartoonishly menacing the threat they face, a combination of derring-do (that's impossible by hte game rules) and pulling impossibly vast amounts of resources out of their butts will save the day. They've already pulled so much stuff out of their butts to explain why the Siege on Tolkeen storyline lasted for more than half a book that it's got to the point where even Lord Splynncryth would have a hard time taking down the CS.

Dont forget that everyone hates them and is scared of them .. Yet .. do not band together to form a more powerful military to defend against them ..

Because that would just be ignorant on their part ..

[Rallan]

4D Transformation. They've got nothing.

But as folks have pointed out with jokes about script immunity, you can't beat the CS. It's Kevin Siembieda's baby, which means that no matter how cartoonishly dumb its villainous leaders get they won't drive the nation into ruin, and now matter how cartoonishly menacing the threat they face, a combination of derring-do (that's impossible by hte game rules) and pulling impossibly vast amounts of resources out of their butts will save the day. They've already pulled so much stuff out of their butts to explain why the Siege on Tolkeen storyline lasted for more than half a book that it's got to the point where even Lord Splynncryth would have a hard time taking down the CS.

Dont forget that everyone hates them and is scared of them .. Yet .. do not band together to form a more powerful military to defend against them ..

Because that would just be ignorant on their part ..

Yeah that too. I like how the CS are openly going about the business of annexing or conquering as many neighbours as possible, while they all sit back and don't lift a finger to help each other. And while the most powerful being on Rifts Earth, who has a vested interest in making sure no major nation controls a large chunk of the planet, sits back and doesn't lift a tentacle to interfere.

[Sureshot]

Yeah that too. I like how the CS are openly going about the business of annexing or conquering as many neighbours as possible, while they all sit back and don't lift a finger to help each other. And while the most powerful being on Rifts Earth, who has a vested interest in making sure no major nation controls a large chunk of the planet, sits back and doesn't lift a tentacle to interfere.

Not only that the come across as being able to on take on the CS by being fiercly independant when imo they would be joining toghther as fast as poosible after the fall of Tolkeen.

[Steeler49er]

That Last part was already explain (very well I may add) by KS... And then again by myself up above.
Splynn doesn't see the CS as a threat to him (and they aren't). The CS still only holds their lands "In Spirit" since they simply do not come Close to the numbers needed to fully occupy those lands. They have purged as much life from those zones as they can and will continue to do so because they need a huge ars MZ. Scorched earth means being able to see your enemies hundreds of miles come in and Obviously has the added benny that it DESTROIES the resourses those enemies and gives your them little place to hide or start rebelions. Splynny realizes that this is what the CS is upto and that it will take them decades to complete. More over it would take them a century before they had enough people (even WITH secretive human cloning). Even IF the CS survives and advances allot over the next 10-20-30-50-70-100 years, Splynny has Still got the upper hand and would crush them.

Be he'd never let it get that far as to Him, all the CS and it's wars are is a big fat war themed "Sitcom". His clients bet on the outcome of war and make a little money from time to time. RIFTS is Splynnies & his splugorthian buddies own personal "casino and hunting resort". So he is the Last guy to want to see that money maker of his end.



As to the Psychopaths of the FoM and the Hippycrits of Lazlo... That's what you get when you've got extreamist Hardliners (Leftist in Lazlo and the Murdering Dunscon in the other corner) in charge of city states. No Anarchy, just pure chaos in the guise of law, justice, and enlightenment. Though it should be said that I've noticed in Real life that Hippies make some of the most visious and murderious combatants on the battle fields since they are paradoxical in everything. And given their nature of Hating war (and dispite it) they're freakn violant as hell. So the CS may end up with a bunch of cowardly leftist running away OR they may see Lazlo go all mad dog on them... Should they attack.


Most likely Lazlo will gain "Teh MaGiCaL powers of TeH resplendant Smuggness of their cause", in which case the CS will one day Spontaneously break out in the "realization" that they are "evil" bad guys and Lazlo (and Eirn Tarn-aka the futures version of obama christ) will come walking out of their city with a glowing wreath of "Love power"♥ and the peeps of the CS will prostrate themselves before her/them... Just Knowing that She/They are the Way and ALL will be made better through She who is Lazlo the enlightened one.

[Rallan]

That Last part was already explain (very well I may add) by KS... And then again by myself up above.
Splynn doesn't see the CS as a threat to him (and they aren't). The CS still only holds their lands "In Spirit" since they simply do not come Close to the numbers needed to fully occupy those lands. They have purged as much life from those zones as they can and will continue to do so because they need a huge ars MZ. Scorched earth means being able to see your enemies hundreds of miles come in and Obviously has the added benny that it DESTROIES the resourses those enemies and gives your them little place to hide or start rebelions. Splynny realizes that this is what the CS is upto and that it will take them decades to complete. More over it would take them a century before they had enough people (even WITH secretive human cloning). Even IF the CS survives and advances allot over the next 10-20-30-50-70-100 years, Splynny has Still got the upper hand and would crush them.

Then either Lord Splynncryth is an idiot (which will come as a surprise to his fans, since all his mental attributes were in the 20s), or Kevin Siembieda is once again making his NPCs hold the Idiot Ball and think like action cartoon supervillains to justify their stupidity.

The Coalition States is the single largest and most badass military force in the Americas, his insanely silly resources thanks to the crap from Siege on Tolkeen, has some of the world's best military hardware thanks to power creep, and is in a position where it's a few years away from ensuring that no other nation or alliance of nations in North America can stop it from destroying all its rivals for power. And while this is going on it's still able to send significant aid to the New German Republic, experiment with setting up a bluewater navy despite not holding the Atlantic coast, and look into maybe providing significant aid to Colombia as well. The CS is setting itself up for a future where it controls a very significant chunk of North America, where its population expands massively thanks to a Pax Prosek, where technological innovation is spurred by the increasing population and standard of living, and where a hostile human nation is very well equipped to deny a large chunk of Rifts Earth to interdimensional trade and visitors.

But apparently Lord Splynncryth is getting his leadership advice from Skeletor and Megatron and Cobra Commander now, just like all the major NPCs in the Siege of Tolkeen did, so he's incapable of showing any of the foresight or cunning that his writeup assures us that he's got in spades. Oh who cares that the Coalition will be vastly more expensive to defeat if it's allowed to flourish? Who cares that it might provoke hostile outsiders who'll be much more threatening than the CS ever was to come in and conquer a large chunk of the planet? Splynny's too busy scoffing at these puny mortals to consider the consequences of what's going on, because that's how machiavellian masterminds work in childrens' entertainment.