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Why does the transforming ship has to be the Flag Ship? I don't think the Quarter was the flag ship. I do think that the transforming ships should be [ur=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_ship]capital ships[/url], but that is of course going to come with being a very well-armed vessel.

I like the picture and the idea is interesting, but I do not think that a colony ship should be a transforming warship. I like the way the Macross-style vessels are not the colony ships in Macross and I think that doing this in RT would simply show a lack of imagination on the part of T. Yune.

Beatmeclever wrote: I like the picture and the idea is interesting, but I do not think that a colony ship should be a transforming warship. I like the way the Macross-style vessels are not the colony ships in Macross and I think that doing this in RT would simply show a lack of imagination on the part of T. Yune.

I would hope that this Time and Production, it wasnt a Colony Ship.... but you never know with Mr. yune.

Gryphon wrote:Emperor Ryu
Increasing the capabilities of the ship, and able to maneuver better, would be the foremost reasons.

But why are you seeking to increase the agility of the colony ship? It isn’t going to be facing a fight by itself. It will immediately engage a fold to escape the combat zone, with its escort fleet following after it almost immediately after they recover their mecha, ala Battlestar Galactica. It simply doesn’t need agility. Especially since large ships don’t really dodge, they merely attempt to get as much of their central mass out of the way of the incoming attacks as possible. What it needs instead if more armor, Pin Point Battier (PPB) systems, Full Barrier Systems (FBS), and Point Defense Systems (PDS). As a colony ship, it shouldn’t be so heavily armed that it can hope to fight anything, as it is instead supposed to flee, never fight.

It probably has something to do with Gunship Diplomacy - where you never know where you may go and meet something that doesn't like you. And who knows it could also be a point where you found something that you want/need and someone else is already there and you need to remove them.

I agree this is not what I see a colony ship doing. But it is a possibility as you never know what you may meet. Probably the main reason in Star Trek: TNG they made the Enterprise a formidable warship, that also carried civilians.

while i can see them being armored and carrying the extra fire power (the gunship diplomacy), i still do not think it makes since for the colony ship to transform for any other reason then its a cool trick.
Beside they could use the room for more colony supplies if they do not have tons of extra gears and motors for the transformation. the SDF-1's 70,000 was not there by design, but out of need. they salvaged the daedalus and prometheus which were not ment to become arms.
by the way i think our city developers and planners need to work with those of macross island since they had a fully functional city within six month with fully usable roads.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:Beside they could use the room for more colony supplies if they do not have tons of extra gears and motors for the transformation. the SDF-1's 70,000 was not there by design, but out of need. they salvaged the daedalus and prometheus which were not ment to become arms.

True the Daedalus and Prometheus were not meant to be connected to the SDF-1, but the ARMD Space Platforms were.

Tiree wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:Beside they could use the room for more colony supplies if they do not have tons of extra gears and motors for the transformation. the SDF-1's 70,000 was not there by design, but out of need. they salvaged the daedalus and prometheus which were not ment to become arms.

True the Daedalus and Prometheus were not meant to be connected to the SDF-1, but the ARMD Space Platforms were.

true but entirely different designs. And i think it would have to be two specailly gear ARMD vessels. Since they are pretty thin in their center points. and they were not ment to become arms, just extra veritech hangers.

Depends....is a fleet accompanying the colony ship or is the colony ship on its own? Is a colony ship just going to one planet, landing and everyone lives out of it until the colony spreads out to cover more ground or are the colony 'pods' modular and replaceable? Does the ship drop off the pods them come back and pick up more colony pods and take them to another planet?

Lot of things to consider when designing a ship.

Gryphon wrote:As much as I want the concept to work, I keep running into little bits of logic that throw themselves into the gears of my view of this thing. It just makes more sense to have it be a planet landing platform that stays with its colony as a surface to orbit defense base, with the potential to lift the colonists out and back to earth if things go south after arrival.

I can totally see how you can have this problem. It is a conundrum that bothers me too. I would expect any colony fleet to have a defense force with it for at least 50 years. Probably even longer.

The fact is, I think a Colony would take years to travel to a location for it to set up shop. So I think any defense force with this ship, will be with them for a long time.

I tend to agree with Tiree with his thoughts with the escort fleet staying with thier colony. I also do not see the fleet being much larger then 5 - 10 vessels. A Tokugawa, a couple banshees, and tristars with the colony vessel. now it is a good possiblity that they would send a larger fleet which would leave several of the smaller vessels behind with a single colony ship while the remainder of the fleet moved on with the the rest of the colony vessels. I do not see each colony being left completely defenseless.

But the Zentradi did not even know thier way home, so i doubt that thier maps would be all that great.

I do not see anything wrong with that, I do not mind the transforming battle cruiser other then it is not likely going to make much of a difference in a space battle other to relocate guns. And as this is robotech/macross I can see it being used as the flagship. I did use the Macross colony vessel for a game once and some of the macross II ships along with some of the robotech vessels as escorts.

If the fleet needed the flagship could seperate and transform, (though I never had it transform) from the colony section.

thats a good point gryphon. I generally do not use the puff weapons as it take half the fun out of the game.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=102749
well, the image in the OP, kinda answers the questions posted in that thread...

re post of the pic, edited form its original form....

http://i52.tinypic.com/2gw6etw.jpg

Arkangel-class Colony Fortress sketch the Image on the left here looks to be very similar to the one i re-linked.. where the right image looks closer to the one shown in RTSC.

josephddm wrote:Maybe two Ark-Angels?

I would doubt that two ships would have the same name while they were both active service. However its possible that each colony ship is based on the same basic design but have a certain amount of modifications to meet the needs of that colony when they make land fall.

Gryphon wrote:OK, new new thought, perhaps the Ark Angel didn't evolve from the SDF-4, but instead the SDF-4 evolved form the Ark Angel. The AA could have instead evolved from a combination of destroyed the SDF-2 and the ships we see in use in Southern Cross, which it sort of looks like. Maybe it was originally intended to be a transforming battle fortress, but with the change in policy represented by the non-transforming Zentraedi inspired SDF-3, the design got immediately relegated to the scrape heap before it was even used. From there, some aspiring UEEF/Pioneer Colonial Missions engineer found it and recovered the design to use as a colony ship, but didn't attempt to remove any more of the systems than he had to. This explains the presence of what appears to be a reflex system at first glance, or perhaps a non-splitting Synchro system instead, the multiple heavy guns found on later designs, the retained thruster block we would expect to be present on the back of the design, and the extensive Alpha Quick Launch Bays (AQLBs) and roll open armored launch bays on the flanks too.

This even makes the concept that the Ark Angel was expected to be a replacement for the converted Angel class Colony Ships have a bit of real sense too, since they would have essentially been designed already, and could retain a massive amount of combat potential without a necessary redesign either. Half a dozen AQLBs means what, 144 Alphas ready up, though these could have been replaced by the Legios launch bays seen in Shadow Chronicles Ikazuchi Carriers instead. Heavy firepower, integrated heavy armor, redundant systems, etc. And with the transformation gear, Reflex/Synchro Cannon, and massive combat troop bays removed, it could carry significant numbers of colonists and their required gear too. This way we get a usable colony ship a military force would serous consider using to go looking for the SDF-3, because it is in essence a combat platform already, but it needn't possess transforming technology...yet. Such a system could be re-engineered into the design over a moderate time span, possibly even during its travels. So we could get an entire movie spanning a period of say six to eight months, and suddenly in the last battle this thing changes modes and opens up with a classic reflex cannon of the vertical split variety as we see on Zentraedi Monitors.

What do you guys think?

Unfortunately, the SDF-4 was already shown in the final episodes of The New Generation series. So, the SDF-4 PREDATES the Ark Angel class. According to the Art Book, the Ark Angel class were already undergoing construction when the Haydonites attacked Space Station Liberty. They weren't even service yet.

I can see where your idea is going Gryphon, it was used to explain the Ikazuchi Carriers delay in the UEEF. budgets and technology sometimes have to catch up to the engineers designs.
I can see it as a ASC warship idea which got scraped and then later was saved by some other engineer who loved its concept.
Infact i like that alot more the more i think about it. is there any information out there about the ark angel from HG, like stats and what not?

Lt Gargoyle wrote:Infact i like that alot more the more i think about it. is there any information out there about the ark angel from HG, like stats and what not?

Yes, there are... but I don't think you're going to like them. Like pretty much everything in Robotech, the details are sparse at best and often make little or no sense. The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles provides the only canon coverage of the Ark Angel, but it's basically just a few sentence blurb about the ship, its length, its class, and its crew capacity. It's a "Shadow Dimension Colony Fortress" that's the biggest Earth ship built, at 2.14km long (2.57km incl. the engine vanes on the back), with a crew capacity of 8,500, which somehow also gives it enough space for 750,000 colonists... a compliment which ought to be impossible unless the ship is substantially bigger on the inside than the outside.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I can see it as a ASC warship idea which got scraped and then later was saved by some other engineer who loved its concept.

Nope... canonically, the Ark Angel-class colony fortresses are purpose-built ships for interstellar colonization. They're a replacement for the earlier Angel-class ships, that were deemed too vulnerable to cope with hostile forces and were converted to deploy the Neutron-S warheads. The only surviving example of the class is the Ark Angel itself, since Vince Grant destroyed all the other incomplete spaceframes when he destroyed the entire Space Station Liberty complex.

Gryphon wrote:First...SPOILSPORT!!!

Gryphon wrote:Two and a half klicks long and three quarters of a million colonists?! Blargh!!! Hmmm, not so much really, this makes it a bit large, and that many bodies would seem to be really cramped, even at 2.5 klicks in length.

Nah... that's 2.57km including the lengthy protruding fins around the engines. The hull frame itself is only 2.14km long, and that space has to accommodate the not-inconsiderable mass of the incomplete synchro cannon built into the ship's prow, the numerous launch bays for fighters, the reactors and engine systems, and also the 8,500 crew and up to 750,000 colonists.

Clearly the REF UEEF has been subcontracting their shipbuilding out to the Time Lords.

Gryphon wrote:As for it being purpose built, well, the idea I laid out means they are purpose BUILT, but admittedly they would not have been purpose DESIGNED, at least not initially, so your point still stands I guess.

Eh... the canon sources are pretty clear on that. The Ark Angel-class were designed and built for space colonization, the weapons are there to remedy the old Angel-class colony ship's main shortcoming of being unable to defend its cargo from the dangers of the increasingly hostile galaxy. It was never intended to be used as a warship.

Gryphon wrote:And the thing is, while we know Ark Angel survived, and Grant waxed SSL, there could have been other such craft off doing what they were supposed to be doing, though no proof exists of that of course.

Again... I don't deal in assumptions, I deal in FACTS. That the Ark Angel is the only ship of its class remaining is a fact, not an assumption or a guess. The Robotech: Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles miniseries establishes that the Ark Angel-class is a new class of colony ship as of 2044, and that they're being built at Space Station Liberty. The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles firmly establishes that the Ark Angel was the only one of the incomplete Ark Angel-class ships complete enough to be used as an escape ship, and that all of the other Ark Angel-class ships under construction were destroyed when Vince Grant detonated the station's neutron s stockpile.

Unless the UEEF decides to build more Ark Angel-class ships at another shipyard at a later date, the Ark Angel will remain the only surviving example of its class.

i think it is very realistic to have multible stations building various hull types, including colony vessels.

I also do whatever I want for my own campaigns. And even if it was in the Game universe books saying there was only one, I would still use multibles for my colony vessels. I like the idea of a game based around the colonization of the universe.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:Infact i like that alot more the more i think about it. is there any information out there about the ark angel from HG, like stats and what not?

Yes, there are... but I don't think you're going to like them. Like pretty much everything in Robotech, the details are sparse at best and often make little or no sense. The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles provides the only canon coverage of the Ark Angel, but it's basically just a few sentence blurb about the ship, its length, its class, and its crew capacity. It's a "Shadow Dimension Colony Fortress" that's the biggest Earth ship built, at 2.14km long (2.57km incl. the engine vanes on the back), with a crew capacity of 8,500, which somehow also gives it enough space for 750,000 colonists... a compliment which ought to be impossible unless the ship is substantially bigger on the inside than the outside.

thanks your right very sparse. but thank you. I am still debating getting the shadow chronicles art book.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I can see it as a ASC warship idea which got scraped and then later was saved by some other engineer who loved its concept.

Nope... canonically, the Ark Angel-class colony fortresses are purpose-built ships for interstellar colonization. They're a replacement for the earlier Angel-class ships, that were deemed too vulnerable to cope with hostile forces and were converted to deploy the Neutron-S warheads. The only surviving example of the class is the Ark Angel itself, since Vince Grant destroyed all the other incomplete spaceframes when he destroyed the entire Space Station Liberty complex.

The thought here is this, the UEG had been colonizing planets since this time. So if Gryphon wants to use this angle I am ok with it. Until i get a book of Offical space ships used by the UEEF and game stats for things I am ok with individual GMs myself included to make up our own story lines. but thank you for the offical ruling there.

Gryphon wrote:My only question is whether the Ark Angel still possesses a Synchro Cannon. I am inclined to say no here, mainly because we know that it is a Haydonite booby trap, and having one aboard the Ark Angel would seem contra indicated by story development.

's kind of a "yes and no" situation on that front... the line art in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles (p116-7) shows that the Ark Angel-class is supposed to have a synchro cannon built into the prow. The labels on the finished CG model for the Ark Angel show the gun as being "unfinished", and the dialogue in the movie would seem to indicate that part or all of the gun wasn't installed yet when they launched the ship in extremis and left its unfinished sister ships to be crushed into a singularity. Maybe if they ever get around to finishing the Ark Angel, they'll replace the synchro cannon with an ordinary reflex cannon, even though it's supposed to be less efficient.

Gryphon wrote:(I question the logic of your colony ship having a strategic weapon system aboard, but then I had to let the idea of a transforming monitor/colony ship go, so I won't look to close of some cat-girls might pay the ultimate price)

Well... the whole reason the Ark Angel-class was apparently designed and built was because the older Angel-class colony ships didn't have sufficient firepower to protect themselves. By the sound of things, Robotech's United Earth Forces don't think it's worth the trouble sending a fleet to protect a few hundred thousand colonists, and expect their colony ships to go it alone on the way to wherever they're headed.

Gryphon wrote:If the class does what it says it does, there are other construction facilities that could make more of them. There won't be any for a while yet, perhaps not until the Shadow War is over with (and if the Ark Angel gets trounced too badly, maybe never), but in the near future additional units could exist.

True... assuming the plans aren't scrapped altogether in the face of another genocidal alien race bent on humanity's extermination, which is getting to be surprisingly common. Now that the Space Station Liberty shipyards have been compressed into a singularity, the REF/UEEF only really has one shipyard left... the one in the Fantoma system responsible for retrofitting the fleet with their new shadow technology weapons and rebuilding the SDF-3. Assuming Edwards didn't do a lot of damage to it when he was absconding with the Icarus and shooting up Hunter's forces for giggles, they might be able to build a few more Ark Angel-class ships.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I also do whatever I want for my own campaigns.

I'm kind of a stickler for canon... on the few occasions I've been tasked with running a game, I've usually found that the closer you make the game setting and gameplay resemble the animation itself, the happier the players end up being. Then again, my player base may just be weird.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:thanks your right very sparse. but thank you. I am still debating getting the shadow chronicles art book.

Not worth it, IMO... I bought it used for a buck and I still felt cheated after reading it.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Gryphon wrote:My only question is whether the Ark Angel still possesses a Synchro Cannon. I am inclined to say no here, mainly because we know that it is a Haydonite booby trap, and having one aboard the Ark Angel would seem contra indicated by story development.

's kind of a "yes and no" situation on that front... the line art in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles (p116-7) shows that the Ark Angel-class is supposed to have a synchro cannon built into the prow. The labels on the finished CG model for the Ark Angel show the gun as being "unfinished", and the dialogue in the movie would seem to indicate that part or all of the gun wasn't installed yet when they launched the ship in extremis and left its unfinished sister ships to be crushed into a singularity. Maybe if they ever get around to finishing the Ark Angel, they'll replace the synchro cannon with an ordinary reflex cannon, even though it's supposed to be less efficient.

Gryphon wrote:(I question the logic of your colony ship having a strategic weapon system aboard, but then I had to let the idea of a transforming monitor/colony ship go, so I won't look to close of some cat-girls might pay the ultimate price)

Well... the whole reason the Ark Angel-class was apparently designed and built was because the older Angel-class colony ships didn't have sufficient firepower to protect themselves. By the sound of things, Robotech's United Earth Forces don't think it's worth the trouble sending a fleet to protect a few hundred thousand colonists, and expect their colony ships to go it alone on the way to wherever they're headed.

Gryphon wrote:If the class does what it says it does, there are other construction facilities that could make more of them. There won't be any for a while yet, perhaps not until the Shadow War is over with (and if the Ark Angel gets trounced too badly, maybe never), but in the near future additional units could exist.

True... assuming the plans aren't scrapped altogether in the face of another genocidal alien race bent on humanity's extermination, which is getting to be surprisingly common. Now that the Space Station Liberty shipyards have been compressed into a singularity, the REF/UEEF only really has one shipyard left... the one in the Fantoma system responsible for retrofitting the fleet with their new shadow technology weapons and rebuilding the SDF-3. Assuming Edwards didn't do a lot of damage to it when he was absconding with the Icarus and shooting up Hunter's forces for giggles, they might be able to build a few more Ark Angel-class ships.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I also do whatever I want for my own campaigns.

I'm kind of a stickler for canon... on the few occasions I've been tasked with running a game, I've usually found that the closer you make the game setting and gameplay resemble the animation itself, the happier the players end up being. Then again, my player base may just be weird.

yea i used to feel the same way, however the series is does not make perfect sense either. infact the are so many hole in the plots, as a gm i have to find way to plug them.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:thanks your right very sparse. but thank you. I am still debating getting the shadow chronicles art book.

Not worth it, IMO... I bought it used for a buck and I still felt cheated after reading it.

thats to bad, well i guess if i can find one used for a buck i will get it for my collection. not worth getting upset for.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Now that the Space Station Liberty shipyards have been compressed into a singularity, the REF/UEEF only really has one shipyard left... the one in the Fantoma system responsible for retrofitting the fleet with their new shadow technology weapons and rebuilding the SDF-3.

For one, the Karbarrans had offered their industrial might to the UEEF in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles. Secondly, the very artbook you're quoting says that Earth forces have captured multiple Factory Satellites, and that Space Station Liberty was, and I quote, "one of the most well known". Not even the most well known, one of the most well known. That makes it pretty clear Earth forces have plenty of shipyards left to build big vessels even with Liberty gone.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Secondly, the very artbook you're quoting says that Earth forces have captured multiple Factory Satellites, and that Space Station Liberty was, and I quote, "one of the most well known".

True... though saying they've captured them is no guarantee that they're still intact, like the factory satellite(s?) in the Macross Saga and The Sentinels, which are never heard from again after the Masters Saga and were probably destroyed by the Invid. There's also no guarantee that any surviving factory satellites are set up to serve as shipyards. Still, good catch. I'd have missed that otherwise, since I seldom have cause to dig out my Robotech stuff these days.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Secondly, the very artbook you're quoting says that Earth forces have captured multiple Factory Satellites, and that Space Station Liberty was, and I quote, "one of the most well known".

True... though saying they've captured them is no guarantee that they're still intact, like the factory satellite(s?) in the Macross Saga and The Sentinels, which are never heard from again after the Masters Saga and were probably destroyed by the Invid. There's also no guarantee that any surviving factory satellites are set up to serve as shipyards. Still, good catch. I'd have missed that otherwise, since I seldom have cause to dig out my Robotech stuff these days.

It would be pretty pointless to mention the presence of multiple Robotech Factory Satellites in human hands if they were useless and/or destroyed, and double pointless to mention useless and/or destroyed Robotech Factory Satellites and then not say that they're useless and/or destroyed. I'm not sure why you're inventing non-evident and counter-intuitive scenarios to disqualify the existence of ship construction capability in human hands that the art book went out of its way to mention.

Sgt Anjay wrote:It would be pretty pointless to mention the presence of multiple Robotech Factory Satellites in human hands if they were useless and/or destroyed,

How does not being a shipyard make a factory satellite useless? Think about what I've said before you start coming up with objections to it. We never see any evidence that the large factory satellite captured in the Macross Saga has shipbuilding capabilities of any kind. The one from The Sentinels is a different story and, by the look of things, a different installation altogether... one that DID contain the facilities necessary for starship construction (or was possibly retrofitted to include them after its capture).

Sgt Anjay wrote:I'm not sure why you're inventing non-evident and counter-intuitive scenarios to disqualify the existence of ship construction capability in human hands that the art book went out of its way to mention.

Again, please actually read what I've written and think about it before you launch into an outraged diatribe. How am I trying to disqualify the existence of shipbuilding facilities in human hands when I've already acknowledged the presence of a massive shipyard complex orbiting Tirol that could retrofit an entire fleet with shadow technology inside of a year?

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:It would be pretty pointless to mention the presence of multiple Robotech Factory Satellites in human hands if they were useless and/or destroyed,

How does not being a shipyard make a factory satellite useless? Think about what I've said before you start coming up with objections to it. We never see any evidence that the large factory satellite captured in the Macross Saga has shipbuilding capabilities of any kind. The one from The Sentinels is a different story and, by the look of things, a different installation altogether... one that DID contain the facilities necessary for starship construction (or was possibly retrofitted to include them after its capture).

You state that the mentioned Robotech Factory Satellites might not be intact, or that they might be destroyed by the Invid, both scenarios making them useless and/or destroyed.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:I'm not sure why you're inventing non-evident and counter-intuitive scenarios to disqualify the existence of ship construction capability in human hands that the art book went out of its way to mention.

Again, please actually read what I've written and think about it before you launch into an outraged diatribe. How am I trying to disqualifying the existence of shipbuilding facilities in human hands when I've already acknowledged the presence of a massive shipyard complex orbiting Tirol that could retrofit an entire fleet with shadow technology inside of a year?

An outraged diatribe, or at least one with me behind it, would be much more involved and vitriolic. It would also be cause for me to be reported, and the thread locked. That was merely puzzlement as to your motive. But at any rate, I am quite clearly seeing what you are writing.

Gryphon stated there are other construction facilities to make Ark Angels. You state that there is only one left...and, fair enough, that may have been the case to the best of your knowledge. Then I point out there's evidence of other facilities with the capability for ship construction, i.e. Robotech Factory Satellites. At least two are known ship facilities (Liberty and the one from Sentinels), with a third being so in every mention from the secondary sources (the one from Viva Miriya). Those three make up every Fac Sat actually seen; two are confirmed ship builders, the third is always described in secondary material as a ship builder, thus making the preponderance of the evidence point to Fac Sats equating to ship building. Your response is entirely in hypotheticals (they're not intact, they were destroyed by invid, they don't build ships) rather than a source backing your viewpoint that Fantoma is the only shipyard.

Sgt Anjay wrote:You state that the mentioned Robotech Factory Satellites might not be intact, or that they might be destroyed by the Invid, both scenarios making them useless and/or destroyed.

The two we know about... yes. As you've illustrated, there are others. We don't know if they have shipbuilding capabilities or not.

Sgt Anjay wrote:You state that there is only one left...and, fair enough, that may have been the case to the best of your knowledge. Then I point out there's evidence of other facilities with the capability for ship construction, i.e. Robotech Factory Satellites.

Yes, there is one and only one installation remaining that we know has the ability to carry out shipbuilding operations on a large scale: Tirol's orbital shipyards. The other shipyards that we see in Robotech, Space Station Liberty and the factory satellite in RT2: the Sentinels all either destroyed or entirely unaccounted for. We can't say one way or the other if any of these unseen factory satellites had shipbuilding capabilities, or that either factory satellite confirmed to have those capabilities originally had them when they were captured. (Given the architectural similarities to Moon Base ALUCE, SSL appears to have undergone extensive renovation upon its capture, and given its appearance it's a safe bet that the one in Sentinels did too)

I'm erring on the side of caution, and you're drawing unsupported inferences about factory satellites that have never been seen or even mentioned in the show.




Now, to get back to the topic... yes, it's entirely possible the REF/UEEF wanted to build new Ark Angel-class ships, they have the facilities to do so on a massive scale. We've seen them firsthand in Prelude. It's just a matter of why they would want to mass-produce more shadowtech-equipped colony ships in the midst of a war where shadow technology is a huge liability and they're short on proper warships.

EDIT: At least, if the plans for the Ark Angel-class weren't lost when the research and development section of Space Station Liberty was compressed into a singularity. Though I guess if they could get enough time to thoroughly examine the Ark Angel itself...

In either event, making them transform seems like a lot of wasted effort. If they're going to use it as a colony ship they ought to be trying to maximize its internal volume, and making it transform and giving over a substantial portion of the internal volume to synchro cannons is not going to help matters there.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:You state that the mentioned Robotech Factory Satellites might not be intact, or that they might be destroyed by the Invid, both scenarios making them useless and/or destroyed.

The two we know about... yes. As you've illustrated, there are others. We don't know if they have shipbuilding capabilities or not.

Of the three Satellites we see, two directly observable as shipyards, and the third is universally described so in secondary sources. No source ever describes a Factory Satellite without shipbuilding capability. Where does the assumption that a Factory Satellite exist without it come from? Because it isn't from any Robotech source that I've been privy to.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:You state that there is only one left...and, fair enough, that may have been the case to the best of your knowledge. Then I point out there's evidence of other facilities with the capability for ship construction, i.e. Robotech Factory Satellites.

Yes, there is one and only one installation remaining that we know has the ability to carry out shipbuilding operations on a large scale: Tirol's orbital shipyards. The other shipyards that we see in Robotech, Space Station Liberty and the factory satellite in RT2: the Sentinels all either destroyed or entirely unaccounted for. We can't say one way or the other if any of these unseen factory satellites had shipbuilding capabilities, or that either factory satellite confirmed to have those capabilities originally had them when they were captured. (Given the architectural similarities to Moon Base ALUCE, SSL appears to have undergone extensive renovation upon its capture, and given its appearance it's a safe bet that the one in Sentinels did too)

I'm erring on the side of caution, and you're drawing unsupported inferences about factory satellites that have never been seen or even mentioned in the show.

You're not erring on the side of caution. Which sources states or implies Robotech Factory Satellites in human hands are inoperable? Which sources state or imply that any Robotech Factory Satellite is incapable of building ships? Which sources states that shipbuilding Factory Satellites were destroyed by the Invid? Those are the scenarios being promulgated in your posts, and are entirely hypothetical without any sources to back them. That isn't caution.

Meanwhile, what is the actual evidence? All three Factory Satellites we see are ascribed the ability to build ships, two directly and the third in every single secondary source. That also means that we never see a Factory Satellite without the ability to build ships. The other Factory Satellites in human hands are mentioned in collusion with Liberty, which is a confirmed shipyard. Give me a reason, a source, a quote, a mention, a cameo, a design note, anything to contrast that against, and I will weigh it on the other side of the scales. But thus far, one side of the scales has something in it, and the other does not, which would make the scales lean in that direction rather than the other.

Emperor Ryu wrote:Well, I find the transforming capabilities are a plus for a colony ship. It offers more roles, than just a solid single shape to go to point 1 to point 2.

But isn't being a big, sturdy box to get as many people as possible from Point A to Point B the entire point of a colony ship? Anything that reduces the people-carrying capacity of the ship would be counterproductive to its main goal of establishing a (relatively self-sufficient colony elsewhere in the galaxy.

Emperor Ryu wrote:I can imagine this ship twice the length of the original Macross/SDF-1, but what about the width, and height? Is there any information as to how many troops are carried in one of these ships? Not to mention, how many combat vehicles are carried too?

Alas, I have no answers for you. Literally the only official information available regarding the Ark Angel-class is its size and its crew capacity, and the few minor design elements we saw flagged on the production art. The crew size is listed as 8,500 with a maximum of 750k, though how many of those are troops and how many are simply responsible for operating the ship itself is anybody's guess.

Insofar as the combat vehicles, I can at least guesstimate that for you if you don't mind my having to use OSM materials from Genesis Climber MOSPEADA to do it. The Ark Angel's finished CG model appears to have sixteen quick-launch bays identical to those used on the Ikazuchi-class space fortress carrier, which at the observed 24 Legioss fighters stored in armo-soldier mode per bay would give the Ark Angel a bare minimum fighter compliment of 384 VF/A-6 Alpha fighters. There are two large bay complexes in the large bulges on either side of the ship's midsection, which probably hold Horizon-V shuttles, Betas, and other fun stuff.

Emperor Ryu wrote:A better question would be how much is it considered to be an acceptable amount to colonize a world, in the first place? Is it possible that the numbers are mere estimations?

Dunno... the crew count is just 8,500 with a max of 750,000, which is a little bit hard to swallow. (I personally suspect that there's an extra zero there, and Tommy meant for it to be an entirely-believable 75,000, but I have no choice but to let the official figure stand for the time being)

I'd be inclined to say you'd need tens of thousands to successfully colonize a planet, in order to establish a viable long-term population. You'd also need plenty of equipment to get them on their feet as soon as possible... prefab housing, utilities, bulk medical commodities, etc.

Gryphon wrote:You choose to lean in the direction of caution, I choose what makes my game go best.

Like I've said before, I just report the facts... how, or if, you use them in your game is up to you. I'm not trying to tell you how to run your game, and I'm sorry if you somehow got that impression.

Gryphon wrote:I didn't know SSL was supposed to be the only place you could build Ark Angel class ships, which makes no sense anyhow really, as this is the UEEF's main military depot and fleet construction yard, yes? So why are colonization ships, even armed ones, being built here and not as some secondary point?

Dunno... but my educated guess would be that it's because Space Station Liberty is likely their most secure installation, being that it's neither in the middle of a recent warzone (like orbiting Tirol) nor immediately adjacent to Invid-controlled territory (like Moon Base ALUCE, etc.). Space Station Liberty is also supposedly one of the big R&D centers for the REF, so one would imagine they'd want to handle trial production of a new class of ship in the base best equipped to collect data on its performance.

Gryphon wrote:Hmmm, actually, that is an interesting point there, perhaps they are built elsewhere, like over Tyrol, and are shipped to SSL to fit heavy weapon systems? Doesn't seem supported in any way, but still makes a bit more sense really.

Unlikely, given that they're apparently being built there entirely in Prelude. Since their main fuel source is increasingly rare, I think they'd be predisposed to try to fabricate as much of the ship as they could in one place.

Gryphon wrote:Also, a side note. I have established a series of spellings for the things in my world I am comfortable with, so don't bother pointing this out to me, as others have in the past. I am not being obtuse, I am sticking to what I have developed to keep things smoother, mainly for me.

I wasn't about to... especially since I can never remember how those bloody Sentinels aliens are supposed to have their names spelled anyway.

Sgt Anjay wrote:[...] in secondary sources.

Therein lies the problem... the "secondary sources" you're being non-specific about are, in all likelihood, materials that were thrown out during the continuity reboot (it's a safe bet, since almost much everything made before '02 that wasn't the original show got the boot).

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:[...] in secondary sources.

Therein lies the problem... the "secondary sources" you're being non-specific about are, in all likelihood, materials that were thrown out during the continuity reboot (it's a safe bet, since almost much everything made before '02 that wasn't the original show got the boot).

Holy cow that's alot of editing. Why even bother to quote me at that point? Anyway, the secondary sources include, but are not limited to, the novels, the comics, the RPG, and the Robotech Reference Guide website that much of current canon tech specs came from. You'll notice most of those sources are generally contradictory, but in this instance they agree. This is not likely coincidence.

So those are sources which state that the third of the three Robotech Factory Satellites we see has shipyard facilities, the other two of course having direct reference to their shipbuilding capabilities. They are secondary, or possibly even tertiary in one or two cases, but with the website's exception are official Robotech product. So what source of any kind claims, rumors, implies, hints, shows, demonstrates, or in any way would lead one to believe there are Robotech Factory Satellites which do not have shipyard facilities? Because if Robotech sources put forth one thing in unison, and no source whatsoever posits the opposite, the preponderance of the evidence rests solely on what the Robotech sources put forth, especially when they corroborate what examples in canon sources show: Robotech Factory Satellites build ships.

josephddm wrote:Maybe Mr.Yune took the idea from [...]

Eh... there have been plenty of accusations leveled at Tommy in recent years claiming he's trying to turn Robotech into Macross, and to a certain extent I think they're onto something when they accuse him of that. Still, the way they're drawn here, I can't help but think that the aim was to imitate the main gun of the Zentradi gun destroyer rather than the Battle section of a New Macross-class ship.

(Incidentally, while I was looking up the finished CG model I did notice that the carrier mode for the transforming Ark Angel was printed in the book, but the captions surrounding it were removed and the humanoid mode was excluded entirely. It's captioned as being nothing but an early design draft.)

Sgt Anjay wrote:Holy cow that's alot of editing. Why even bother to quote me at that point?

It is... but I like to cut right to the heart of the matter. The value in quoting it is for the sake of clarify, since it wasn't related to the rest of my post.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Anyway, the secondary sources include, but are not limited to, the novels, the comics, the RPG, and the Robotech Reference Guide website that much of current canon tech specs came from. You'll notice most of those sources are generally contradictory, but in this instance they agree. This is not likely coincidence.

Yeah... in short, things which were either thrown out during the continuity reboot Tommy did when he took over, or were never canon to begin with. It's kind of amazing how often people mistake the uRRG for a reliable source of info, even though its authors have said on many occasions that it's applicable only to their fan-fiction. None of the sources that you mentioned have any bearing on the post-reboot Robotech continuity in general and RTSC in particular.

Emperor Ryu wrote:True, but after the mission is over, what happens to the ship afterwards? Having more capabilities adds to the strength and survival of the newly formed colony, in my opinion, of course. Something me and Gryphon were discussing earlier in this thread.

Yeah, that is a bit of an unanswered question isn't it? Since the colony space on the Ark Angel-class appears to be self-contained in a small part of the ship, maybe they detach the colony bays and make another run back to Earth for more colonists? Robotech's colony program seems to have never gotten off the ground, so I guess we won't find out at any point in the foreseeable future. I doubt they'd just park the ship planetside like they've done in Macross with some classes of colony ship... unless the ship is modular enough that they could disassemble it and use it as raw materials to build a city?

Emperor Ryu wrote:750,000 Colonists is a bit much, if you ask me. Given that it was, what, . . . 50,000 to 70,000 civilians? (minus crew and military personnel.), . . . on board the Macross/SDF-1, and this Ark Angel Class carries 10 times that amount into a structural frame that is only twice that size of Macross/SDF-1,

Yeah... that's why I'm inclined to suspect it's a typo, unless Robotech literally can do ships bigger on the inside than the outside.

Emperor Ryu wrote:Agreed. Though, couldn't another ship carry those equipment, instead of the Ark Angel?

It could, yeah... but we've never seen a colony fleet in Robotech... or even a colony ship operating as a colony ship for that matter.

I think only Quoting the Length of the Ark Angel is dishonest.
in Comparison to the SDF-1.
its 2x as long, but its taller and Wider as well.
The SDF-1 had Parks, Stadiums and Various Civilian buildings that are un-nessicary on a Military Colony Ship.

so, SDF-1 had 70,000 on board.
the Ark Angel should fit at least x2 that, 140,000.
Take out the Un-needed buildings (Stadiums, parks, Free standing buildings) and you could fit a lot more people in a Similar space on board even the SDF-1. I mean honestly, the SDF-1 had alot of Wasted Space in the "City" section of the Ship. Since it wasn't a purpose built Colony ship and it held 70,000 people. a Larger Purpose built Colony ship should hold Alot more.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Anyway, the secondary sources include, but are not limited to, the novels, the comics, the RPG, and the Robotech Reference Guide website that much of current canon tech specs came from. You'll notice most of those sources are generally contradictory, but in this instance they agree. This is not likely coincidence.

Yeah... in short, things which were either thrown out during the continuity reboot Tommy did when he took over, or were never canon to begin with. It's kind of amazing how often people mistake the uRRG for a reliable source of info, even though its authors have said on many occasions that it's applicable only to their fan-fiction. None of the sources that you mentioned have any bearing on the post-reboot Robotech continuity in general and RTSC in particular.

Its funny that you dismiss the URRG off-hand, since canon materials list it as a reference. That's reason enough to at least give it a look. Is it canon? Far from. I've found myself in a number of...ahem, heated debates...over a number of the choices they've made, especially back during the heyday of the Purist v. McKinneyist confrontations in the fanbase. At any rate, its useful for corroboration or seeking where certain canon stats may have come from, like other secondary sources.

It is merely additional material in agreement to what the canon shows, which is that Robotech Factory Satellites build ships. The secondary material may have offered an example of a Fac Sat that didn't, thus lending some sort of weight to the idea, or at least an origin for that assumption. But they don't. In canon, and in the secondary, and thus in any Robotech which deigns to address them, all Fac Sats are shipyards.

So then. I've got canon sources showing Fac Sats that build ships, and secondary sources showing Fac Sats that build ships. What source of any type says the opposite?

I do find the Idea of Something called a "Factory Satellite"... not building things...

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I think only Quoting the Length of the Ark Angel is dishonest.
in Comparison to the SDF-1.

It is a little misleading, but the problem is that the length is also the only official figure we've got for the Ark Angel-class's dimensions. The existing art isn't really enough to make a reasonable estimate of its other dimensions.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:so, SDF-1 had 70,000 on board.
the Ark Angel should fit at least x2 that, 140,000.

But the SDF-1 was never intended to accommodate a population that size in the long term... that was a warship whose empty internal spaces were turned into an ad hoc habitat. Let's also remember that the SDF-1 could compensate somewhat by displacing some of the ship's military population into the Daedalus and Prometheus, ships that in and of themselves could easily have capacities in the thousands. (To put it in perspective, the OSM figures for the CVS-101 Prometheus put it at 512m long, half again as long as a Nimitz-class carrier, and those have crews of over 3000 men)

By the opposite token, the Ark Angel-class is a purpose-built habitat ship that's going to need to accommodate large numbers of civilians for a long term exploratory mission while they find a suitable colony site. It doesn't have any exterior military ships to dump all of its military hardware and population on, so those ~750,000 colonists it supposedly has have to share the interior space with all the supplies necessary to keep them, the ship's crew, and hundreds of Alpha fighters operating... gonna be a bit cramped by comparison.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Its funny that you dismiss the URRG off-hand, since canon materials list it as a reference.

Please, tell me what canon materials list the uRRG itself as a reference. The robotech.com Infopedia doesn't. It only lists the people who contributed writing the Infopedia. The same goes for the AoTSC book. Mind you, uRRG's authors are quite unambiguous about how their work should be regarded:

We have tried to be as comprehensive and accurate as possible, but they should not be taken to be 'canon' within the Robotech universe - only the version of it in our fanfic.

The wording is theirs, the emphasis is mine. That is MORE than sufficient reason to totally disregard the uRRG's stance on anything. If you're going to build your counterargument on fan-fiction and material that has either long-since been decanonized or never was canon to begin with, why waste your time and mine by continuing?

Sgt Anjay wrote:That's reason enough to at least give it a look. Is it canon? Far from. I've found myself in a number of...ahem, heated debates...over a number of the choices they've made, especially back during the heyday of the Purist v. McKinneyist confrontations in the fanbase.

Yes, you've had those heated debates... so have I... with several of the people who wrote the bloody thing. It's partly OSM material, but a LOT of it is simply made up on the spot for compatibility with their fan-fiction setting. It's a fan-fiction guide, meant to be used as a companion for the setting of their fan-fiction series. Nothing more. It's not like M3 or the Macross Compendium, where every fiddling little number and description can be traced to an official, canon source.

Emperor Ryu wrote:Allow me to offer some sources here, . . .

Ryu... the RPG books aren't canon, and certainly shouldn't be used in a debate about actual Robotech, for the reasons Kevin S. himself has elaborated on.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:so, SDF-1 had 70,000 on board.
the Ark Angel should fit at least x2 that, 140,000.

But the SDF-1 was never intended to accommodate a population that size in the long term... that was a warship whose empty internal spaces were turned into an ad hoc habitat. Let's also remember that the SDF-1 could compensate somewhat by displacing some of the ship's military population into the Daedalus and Prometheus, ships that in and of themselves could easily have capacities in the thousands. (To put it in perspective, the OSM figures for the CVS-101 Prometheus put it at 512m long, half again as long as a Nimitz-class carrier, and those have crews of over 3000 men)

from the image: http://i52.tinypic.com/2gw6etw.jpg The "Transforimg" version has 2 pop out "Daedalus" arms.
but if you Look at the Space Wasted in the SDF-1 for non-essential recreational and free-standing building, if the SDF-1 was purpose built for housing people it would have held alot more than 70,000. and because the full dimensions arent avalible for the Ark Angle, nor muhc information at all, we dont know how many times bigger than the SDF-1 it really is.

By the opposite token, the Ark Angel-class is a purpose-built habitat ship that's going to need to accommodate large numbers of civilians for a long term exploratory mission while they find a suitable colony site. It doesn't have any exterior military ships to dump all of its military hardware and population on, so those ~750,000 colonists it supposedly has have to share the interior space with all the supplies necessary to keep them, the ship's crew, and hundreds of Alpha fighters operating... gonna be a bit cramped by comparison.

is the Official stance that it will house them long term for Exploration?

Colonel Wolfe wrote:from the image: http://i52.tinypic.com/2gw6etw.jpg The "Transforimg" version has 2 pop out "Daedalus" arms.

Those are flagged as weapons systems though... you're not going to tell your crew to go bunk in a cannon's barrel. Your labeling them as "Carriers" is at odds with what its creator labeled them... "Sekiton guns".

Colonel Wolfe wrote:but if you Look at the Space Wasted in the SDF-1 for non-essential recreational and free-standing building, if the SDF-1 was purpose built for housing people it would have held alot more than 70,000.

Unless you're sticking the civilians in cryo-storage, those recreational facilities would be an important part of maintaining the sense of normalcy in the civilian population during the long space voyage back to Earth at sub-light speeds.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:is the Official stance that it will house them long term for Exploration?

Not explicitly... but the description of the Angel-class colony ships that preceded the Ark Angel-class certainly seems to indicate that's the case.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:is the Official stance that it will house them long term for Exploration?

Not explicitly... but the description of the Angel-class colony ships that preceded the Ark Angel-class certainly seems to indicate that's the case.

The Mayflower Colony Ship is a good example of a Colony Vessel designed to take a cramped amount of people to a Pre-determined place, and set up a colony. Carrying 130 people (105 colonist and 25 crew) in a 100ft long x 25ft wide ship.
(now mind you they wernt carrying combat aircraft on board... )

Unless you're sticking the civilians in cryo-storage, those recreational facilities would be an important part of maintaining the sense of normalcy in the civilian population during the long space voyage back to Earth at sub-light speeds.

I think you missed my point, a Purpose built Ship may not require long periods of Sublight travel. if the Goal is to Jump to a place and set up shop, then you dont need the extras, and could fit 4x as many people.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Colonel Wolfe wrote:
but if you Look at the Space Wasted in the SDF-1 for non-essential recreational and free-standing building, if the SDF-1 was purpose built for housing people it would have held alot more than 70,000.
Unless you're sticking the civilians in cryo-storage, those recreational facilities would be an important part of maintaining the sense of normalcy in the civilian population during the long space voyage back to Earth at sub-light speeds.

That they would need recreational facilities is not in doubt. What does appear in doubt is if they need to replicate a City lock-stock-barrel (or close to it) as the SDF-1 did or go with something a bit more intergrated (like a Mall).

Plus there are areas of the SDF-1 that where available for use even after Macross City was rebuilt that would allow a much larger population to be housed (weather the Life Support was up to the task is anoher matter):
-The Spies hideout and insertion points
-Rick & Minmei's labrinth
-Vermillion & Skull's drag race in "Blue Wind" (IIRC) and Zentreadi units penetrate into the ship x3 taking long corridors to the City, suggesting that some part of that could be taken over for civilian use
-the RDF Base where Rick is quartered in the begining.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The Mayflower Colony Ship is a good example of a Colony Vessel designed to take a cramped amount of people to a Pre-determined place, and set up a colony. Carrying 130 people (105 colonist and 25 crew) in a 100ft long x 25ft wide ship.
(now mind you they wernt carrying combat aircraft on board... )

This is officially one of the worst analogies I've ever seen. In case you missed it, you'll find there's rather a lot of difference between a sailing ship with passive propulsion and food literally swimming all around it and a starship traveling through the void of space on a cluster of rocket engines, where food, fuel, and even atmosphere have to be taken with you. You'd also do well to remember the Puritans were a religious movement and opposed to most of the usual vices, so their recreational activities were a little different, but still present.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I think you missed my point, a Purpose built Ship may not require long periods of Sublight travel. if the Goal is to Jump to a place and set up shop, then you dont need the extras, and could fit 4x as many people.

That only works if you know exactly where you're going and can get there quickly... neither of which is guaranteed, since fold travel is analogous to warp drive in RTSC and there's been no indication of space exploration except for the REF bumping into various alien races during their conflict with the Invid Regent.

ShadowLogan wrote:What does appear in doubt is if they need to replicate a City lock-stock-barrel (or close to it) as the SDF-1 did or go with something a bit more intergrated (like a Mall).

Presumably replicating the city was simply a materials and planning savings... it's not like they had a ton of building materials handy, they used what was already in place, complete with the existing infrastructure. Still, replicating a habitat similar to what people would've had on a planetary surface (complete with a false sky) would go a long way towards the psychological security of the colonists.

Incidentally... long time no see dude.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Its funny that you dismiss the URRG off-hand, since canon materials list it as a reference.

Please, tell me what canon materials list the uRRG itself as a reference. The robotech.com Infopedia doesn't. It only lists the people who contributed writing the Infopedia. The same goes for the AoTSC book. Mind you, uRRG's authors are quite unambiguous about how their work should be regarded:

We have tried to be as comprehensive and accurate as possible, but they should not be taken to be 'canon' within the Robotech universe - only the version of it in our fanfic.

The wording is theirs, the emphasis is mine. That is MORE than sufficient reason to totally disregard the uRRG's stance on anything. If you're going to build your counterargument on fan-fiction and material that has either long-since been decanonized or never was canon to begin with, why waste your time and mine by continuing?

My apologies. I did, in fact, completely misspeak. Authors of the URRG are listed as contributors, URRG stances on Robotech material are now canon (I'm still bitter they accepted late return), and the URRG website is mentioned in, at least, the Shadow Chronicles art book. Big difference.

Frankly, I would have much rather gone with a nod to Robotech Research, another website whose author and his website is listed, since I was generally much more in line with Ken's thinking way back when we were in contact. Same with Jonathan Switzer, who I was in even closer touch with for a while, although his love for Sentinels and the Waltrips' efforts did always lean him to the comics side of things.

Man, now I'm all nostalgic for the olden days the Disciples of Zor Robotech internet fanclub.

Of course, none of that changes the fact that I have sources backing up the canon data that Robotech Factory Satellites build ships, and there is no source at all that says otherwise.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:That's reason enough to at least give it a look. Is it canon? Far from. I've found myself in a number of...ahem, heated debates...over a number of the choices they've made, especially back during the heyday of the Purist v. McKinneyist confrontations in the fanbase.

Yes, you've had those heated debates... so have I... with several of the people who wrote the bloody thing. It's partly OSM material, but a LOT of it is simply made up on the spot for compatibility with their fan-fiction setting. It's a fan-fiction guide, meant to be used as a companion for the setting of their fan-fiction series. Nothing more. It's not like M3 or the Macross Compendium, where every fiddling little number and description can be traced to an official, canon source.

Yes, PWW can be...interesting to debate. Or "debate". And yes, their research is in the end used to draw their own conclusions which aren't either self-evident nor necessarily inevitable from the material. That would, of course, be a reason why their stuff has been the source of such debate on the internet. Another is that, until their detractors repeated and vociferously called them out on it, they and their site seemed to operate from the viewpoint that either "this is the way it is", or "this is the way it should be"...in other words, that it should be taken as official since, back then, there was no real canon. The "unofficial" part of the name URRG is a much later addition.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Emperor Ryu wrote:Allow me to offer some sources here, . . .

Ryu... the RPG books aren't canon, and certainly shouldn't be used in a debate about actual Robotech, for the reasons Kevin S. himself has elaborated on.

They do, however, agree with the canon that Robotech Factory Satellites build ships, though at least there is the scenario included of finding a ravaged, inoperable Fac Sat, so there's that.

Sgt Anjay wrote:My apologies. I did, in fact, completely misspeak. Authors of the URRG are listed as contributors, URRG stances on Robotech material are now canon (I'm still bitter they accepted late return), and the URRG website is mentioned in, at least, the Shadow Chronicles art book. Big difference.

Yeah... I'm not buying that "I misspoke" line. Having the uRRG mentioned in passing in the acknowledgments section as something else the author's worked on in the past won't make the uRRG canon. Nor, for that matter, does having them supply OSM-derived stats for the Infopedia. By the admission of its authors, the uRRG is nothing more than fan-fiction, and should not be treated as canon or accurate to Robotech's official timeline. That was the case even before the continuity was rebooted, and it hasn't changed since.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Of course, none of that changes the fact that I have sources backing up the canon data that Robotech Factory Satellites build ships, and there is no source at all that says otherwise.

Except that your assertion that all factory satellites MUST include shipyard facilities depends on non-canon sources and fan-fiction, neither of which hold up under even the most cursory examination. You're drawing a conclusion about a large number of installations based on just two bases, both of which were in human hands long enough to be renovated before we even saw them. Sufficed to say, you don't really have much to go on here... and trying to pass long-discredited sources off as canon to support your argument is only undermining your claims.

The Fact the Scrapped the Angel Class colonies that used a "Macross" style search for a home method, and built the Ark Angel class ships after the REf has encountred both the Masters, and Various alien nations means they had new information. and a different plan for Colonization.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The Fact the Scrapped the Angel Class colonies that used a "Macross" style search for a home method, and built the Ark Angel class ships after the REf has encountred both the Masters, and Various alien nations means they had new information. and a different plan for Colonization.

Uh... actually, the reason given for replacing the Angel-class colony ships with the new Ark Angel-class is that the old ships couldn't defend themselves adequately if they were attacked by hostile forces. There's no mention of a change in the colony program's approach to colonizing other planets... whatever it originally was. (The colony program doesn't appear to have ever gotten off the ground, so we don't know what their exact plans were.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The Fact the Scrapped the Angel Class colonies that used a "Macross" style search for a home method, and built the Ark Angel class ships after the REf has encountred both the Masters, and Various alien nations means they had new information. and a different plan for Colonization.

Uh... actually, the reason given for replacing the Angel-class colony ships with the new Ark Angel-class is that the old ships couldn't defend themselves adequately if they were attacked by hostile forces. There's no mention of a change in the colony program's approach to colonizing other planets... whatever it originally was. (The colony program doesn't appear to have ever gotten off the ground, so we don't know what their exact plans were.)

I think the Gloval Plan for expansion into space may have died with him in tommy yune's version of Robotech....
but the Mobs of people Hunter sent back to Earth to die at the hands of the invid had to come from somewhere... Thou I guess "all born out in deep space on a Robotech ship..." can explain some of it... humanity is a nomadic race that live in ships.

Seto Kaiba wrote:You'd also do well to remember the Puritans were a religious movement and opposed to most of the usual vices, so their recreational activities were a little different, but still present.

Just a historical quibble for a moment. Pilgrims (Mayflower Compact) =/= Puritans. The Puritans were a later movement that existed after the founding of Plymouth Colony. Not all of The Pilgrims were in fact moving because of religious persecution.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:My apologies. I did, in fact, completely misspeak. Authors of the URRG are listed as contributors, URRG stances on Robotech material are now canon (I'm still bitter they accepted late return), and the URRG website is mentioned in, at least, the Shadow Chronicles art book. Big difference.

Yeah... I'm not buying that "I misspoke" line. Having the uRRG mentioned in passing in the acknowledgments section as something else the author's worked on in the past won't make the uRRG canon. Nor, for that matter, does having them supply OSM-derived stats for the Infopedia. By the admission of its authors, the uRRG is nothing more than fan-fiction, and should not be treated as canon or accurate to Robotech's official timeline. That was the case even before the continuity was rebooted, and it hasn't changed since.

You can buy or not buy at your leisure. The fact remains that authors of the URRG are contributers to canon sources, making their earlier work applicable. Why they began their earlier work is irrelevant to that fact that that work went on to put them in a position to include it when canon was put together under the current regime at HG. As for their statements of it's fan-fiction nature, I addressed that point in my previous post, and it remains addressed even if you edit it out.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Of course, none of that changes the fact that I have sources backing up the canon data that Robotech Factory Satellites build ships, and there is no source at all that says otherwise.

Except that your assertion that all factory satellites MUST include shipyard facilities depends on non-canon sources and fan-fiction, neither of which hold up under even the most cursory examination. You're drawing a conclusion about a large number of installations based on just two bases, both of which were in human hands long enough to be renovated before we even saw them. Sufficed to say, you don't really have much to go on here... and trying to pass long-discredited sources off as canon to support your argument is only undermining your claims.

How much or how little I have to go on is debatable (obviously, since we are debating it). There are three Factory Satellites we see. Two of the three are confirmed as shipyards. For the third, there are secondary sources of Robotech material, to include novels, comics, and the RPG, which say it also is a shipyard. The statements revealing that there are a number of other, unseen Robotech Factory Satellites are in the section on Space Station Liberty, a confirmed shipyard. The entire sum total of all evidence links Robotech Factory Satellites to shipyards. If the entire sum total of the evidence isn't enough for you, all fine and well, but there is no evidence of any kind in any medium of any sort which supports the viewpoint of there being Robotech Factory Satellites not designed to build ships. You may feel free to question my sources, but at least I have sources and am not relying on Wild Mass Guessing.