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Cinos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:In Chaos Earth, ALL supernatural beings take Mega-Damage from dog bites.

In -Chaos Earth- Sure, I happen to see this thread in the Rifts forum, so get Kevin to agree it applies across

I was responding to claims about how hard it would have been to survive the Chaos Earth timeline.
The rules would be the same, because it's actually Rifts: Chaos Earth, part of the Rifts setting.

Yes many things have weakness, guess how hard it is for a squad of 6 humans armed with Silver Longswords to take down a Jinn?

Dunno. Depends on class, level, skill, and specific circumstances.
Generally, I'd say it would be pretty hard.
Better bargain with it or run away.

Where are they getting all this silver from?

Mines, melted down silverware, old dimes, whatever.

Where are they making these weapons exactly?

Anywhere they can.

Silver isn't a great weapons metal either, they're gonna wear out.

You can silver-coat weapons and have them function the same as pure silver, and this coating would wear off, but it could be replaced.

So list of things that are MDC without a directly exploitable mechanic, Tautons, Crocodillians, Buti-fas, Demonic Cannibals, Gargoylite, Gurgoyle, Gargoyle, Gargoyle Mage, Gargoyle Lord (I will exempt Europe from this to an extent, as NGR some how made it through fairly well with tech intact for some unexplained reason, and yet have not taken over the entire land mass through the dark ages), Blood Hawks, Dark Behemoth, Darkhound, Dragon-Ape, Land Ray (Body Field, it is at least defeatable), Necrophim / Soul Snakes, Shadeling, Sun Demon, Vyarnect, Demon-Dragonmage, Lanotaur Psi-Hunter, Power Leech (for some reason, aside from being a MASSIVE threat to towns WITH MD Weaponry), Psi-Goblin, Zenith Moon Warpers, Brodkil, Neuron Beast, Splugorth Slaver, Rhino-Bufflo (Only when aged), Thornhead, Witchling, Xiticix, Mountain Giants, Devil Unicorn, Great Dream Snake, Grigleapers, Gwylack, Leatherwing (noted to be so common their numbers in the west to be in the millions), Oborus-Slitherer, Ostrosaurus, Panthera-Tereon (the first one noted to actual behave like an animal and not over hunt an area), Phantasm, Silonar, Tiger Claw Raptor, Tree Spiders, Tyrannosaurus Rex, Worm Wraith, Fallam, Blood Lizard, Larhold, Larhold Warbison, Aqua-Hydra, Crab Warriors, Dragonfish, Horned Demon-Fish, Swamp-Sludger, Water Serpents, Giant Waterstriders, Soul Worms, Minions of Inix, Pincer Warriors, Greot Hunter, Yeno, Armored Slayer, Bears (Both literal and mutant, the literal bears are listed with H.P / S.D.C, with an MDC note of "Equivalent to 2-3 M.D.C", even though their totals bearly stractch that, so there's a pretty bad gray area), Cadborosaurus, Fury Bettle, Giant Squid, D'Sonoqua (Included because her 'vulnerability' requires M.D.C capability to abuse to hold her underwater), Armored Devil Fish, Crawlies, Clamp-Mouth Dragonfly, Flash Beetles, Petal Thing, Temporal Raider, Man-Eagles, Plant Man-Monster, Spirit Man-Monster, Stone Giant, Teepowka, Ukt Water Serpent.

Yup.
Any mention of these guys running around during the Chaos Earth era?
Any mention of their population numbers and/or density??

So, that's a big paragraph of back to back examples, from exclusively Rift canon,

Yup.
Now flip open the Rifts book to the random supernatural predator creation tables.
Calculate how many different species can be made using those tables.
Compare the number of species there to the number of species you list.

That's about 10% of the monsters listed in the game can be beaten without MDC tools of some kind.

Incorrect.
Look at the monsters you list.
How many of them can be drowned, suffocated, or strangled?
How many are impervious to having blood flow blocked off from their head?
How many can be taken out using spells or psionics?
How many are impervious to all poisons and drugs?
How many are impervious to disease?
How many are impervious to starvation and dehydration?
How many are impervious to electrocution?

How many you have left now?

Take those, and find out how many are impervious to explosives, because a standard assault rifle inflicts 1d6x10 SDC per shot using explosive rounds, which means that a short burst could conceivably inflict more than 100 SDC, which would be 1 MD. The odds are better with longer burst, of course.
(and that's ignoring lucky shots with AP rounds and other ammo, where a natural 20 might put you over the top, as well as larger machineguns and other weapons)
Then find out how many are impervious to various traps in the RGMG, like the Swinging Log and the Rock Slide/Log Fall, either of which can inflict MD to MDC targets.

Now how many species do you have on the list?

Many of these (Many being about 40-50%), are listed as being "common", only a few are denoted as Uncommon, and only a handful as "Rare". Some are listed to number "in the hundreds" for an area the size of a state, others have listings in "the thousands". A huge amount of these are listed in the US West, so I wouldn't want to live there come the end of the world.

"thousands" over the size of a state isn't that much, unless it's a really small state.
Hundreds is definitely not enough to threaten everybody in the whole state.

Also, animals are FAR smarter then you give them credit for when it comes to themselves. All it takes is an animal with supernatural strength to bump into a tree and watch it explode to try it again and realize it's now a walking god of the animal kingdom.

Maybe, if trees exploded from incidental bumping instead of from MD attacks, depending on the animal in question.
But in general, old habits and instincts die hard.

Animals who are MD who are being 'tamed' by someone without MD capabilties will have a rude suprise for their breeder when it bucks it from his back with enough force to split him apart and turn him into human pudding, or fails to register the SD cattle prod.

Because people who tame animals don't take into account size, strength, or capabilities.
Get real.

Many of the Demon / predators are noted to eat often, depicted as horible things that just -like- killing things, or live in enough of a group that a town will not sustain their eating habits for long (well, assumed eating habits, they don't always denote amount / time between meals). The Soul Slugs are shown to NEED to eat a human once per 4 Days, but enjoy once per 2 days when able. Given a town, I suspect they will eat every day.

It sounds more like one per two days is the usual limit to their appetite, from what you say there.
But okay, take those creatures and compare them to the list of previous creatures you have that can't be harmed.
What've you got left?
And what are their numbers and locations?

Holy jeeps you guys had an entire back and forth already ><
And before you claim otherwise, if the Good MDC creatures (who are by far the minority) helped humanity get by along with human mages, how'd Prosek get into power?

I don't see how the one would stop the other.

How many of them can be drowned, suffocated, or strangled?
How many are impervious to having blood flow blocked off from their head?
How many can be taken out using spells or psionics?
How many are impervious to all poisons and drugs?
How many are impervious to disease?
How many are impervious to starvation and dehydration?
How many are impervious to electrocution?

Spells would take at least twenty years to be common place to the point of practicality, those born mystics need to level up a bit.

Try strangling a Supernatural PS being, get back to me on how well that works. Come to think of it, try strangling a bear. See if you can pull that off.

Most of them are, yeah on both poisons, drugs, and diseases. Most appear not to care about food or water. You want rules on how to electrocute something, go find me actual hard rules that do not use magical lightning for it to show it deals MD.

The times they bother to give details on numbers other then saying they are 'found commonly in Region X' they traveled in packs.

As to Chaos Earth rules, it's as much a different system with different problems as Nightbane and Rifts do, or Phase World and Rifts. So do dogs biting a Demon in Phase World still do MD? What about in Fantasy? Do they ignore AR? Having a Rifts Super title means the rules of RIFTS apply to that game, not that games rules applies to the masterwork. That's how super titles work.

As to silver, silver stopped being in Silverware around the 80s at best, it got too costly, finding Silver-Silverware these days is hard enough, most is steel. And if I recall, physical money stopped being used pre-Rifts. So you have enough silver for what? A sword from someones old collection? Also, silver coating is near useless, it's too thin and very hard to recover any meaningful amount from them before you say jewelry.

And the point being made; If magic users and supernatural beings where the ONLY reason humanity survives the dark Ages, a message of Racial Supremacy would be so hard to swallow you'd have to be drinking the kool-aid.

Cinos wrote:

How many of them can be drowned, suffocated, or strangled?
How many are impervious to having blood flow blocked off from their head?
How many can be taken out using spells or psionics?
How many are impervious to all poisons and drugs?
How many are impervious to disease?
How many are impervious to starvation and dehydration?
How many are impervious to electrocution?

Spells would take at least twenty years to be common place to the point of practicality, those born mystics need to level up a bit.

IIRC, Chaos Earth does have its mages.

Try strangling a Supernatural PS being, get back to me on how well that works. Come to think of it, try strangling a bear. See if you can pull that off.

A good steel cable and a power winch would be one way.
A diesel shovel getting a lucky shot and pinning it to the ground by its neck would be another, or parking a car or tank on its neck. Any heavy/sturdy enough weight on the right spot would work.
Hanging it would work too, if done right.
Just off the top of my head.

Most of them are, yeah on both poisons, drugs, and diseases.

Really? They specify invulnerability to each of those?
Well, mark the few that would be affected off the list.

Most appear not to care about food or water.

Based on?

You want rules on how to electrocute something, go find me actual hard rules that do not use magical lightning for it to show it deals MD.

You don't have to inflict MD, just incapacitate.

The times they bother to give details on numbers other then saying they are 'found commonly in Region X' they traveled in packs.

Right. Because for the most part, they don't really give us any numbers for most of these critters. There might be a dozen or a hundred on the entire planet. There might be a hundred-thousand of them, but only in one valley where humans don't go anymore.
It's up to us to guess, and based on the fact that there ARE still plenty of SDC humans living in the wilderness, away from CS protection, I'd say that these really bad beasties aren't incredibly commonplace.

As to Chaos Earth rules, it's as much a different system with different problems as Nightbane and Rifts do, or Phase World and Rifts. So do dogs biting a Demon in Phase World still do MD?

Sure; Phase World is also part of the Rifts setting.

What about in Fantasy?

Nope; it's not an Mega-Damage setting.

Do they ignore AR?

Any reason why they should?

Having a Rifts Super title means the rules of RIFTS apply to that game, not that games rules applies to the masterwork. That's how super titles work.

Source?

As to silver, silver stopped being in Silverware around the 80s at best, it got too costly, finding Silver-Silverware these days is hard enough, most is steel.

Uh-huh.
And some of it is silver.
As is a lot of jewelry and other stuff.

And if I recall, physical money stopped being used pre-Rifts. So you have enough silver for what? A sword from someones old collection?

Yes, that's exactly it.
In all of North America, there is only enough silver to coat a single sword.
You've got this one nailed down pretty tight.

Also, silver coating is near useless, it's too thin and very hard to recover any meaningful amount from them before you say jewelry.

Too late.
Believe it or not, not all jewelry is only plated.

And the point being made; If magic users and supernatural beings where the ONLY reason humanity survives the dark Ages, a message of Racial Supremacy would be so hard to swallow you'd have to be drinking the kool-aid.

Right.
So obviously they weren't, just two factors of the many that I listed.

jaymz wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:But killing something and having it stay away for at least a decade is pretty good. Gives time for a bunch of new kids to be born. And I don't know that they necessarily return to the same spot either, so for the community in question it might be a permanent victory (against that creature, anyway).

True enough but if it has some buddies in hell that are about to return.......that could be bad for the village that beat the demon only to have 4 show up a year later is all.

Yup.
Or for the demon.
Sounds like a good adventure or campaign.

KC - Oddly enough I agree to everything you have said as being able to be done. Where I disagree is that I am not conivinced everything you have posted would be as effective as you think it would be. All of it is good and useful for any campaign though I'll have to make notes of some of it to use.

WildWalker wrote:KC: When was the last game you ran in which there was and MDC menace and there were no MDC weapons or armor?

Last game I ran, a few months back.
Also, the next game I'll run.

How did it go for your Players?

One lost a hand, but nobody died.

How did they finally succeed?

After a series of hit and run attacks, and some prolonged chasing, they eventually determined that the creatures were vulnerable to energy, and were able to pick the creatures off using an SDC laser rifle.

I'm curious because so far all of the posts I've read seem to be from the theoretical (i.e. not based in actual game play).

What gave you that idea?

For me, I have run the scenario of an MDC menace with SDC characters with no MDC weapons or armor in actual game play and it was horrible and unsatisfying because the table expectation of actually being able to be heroes was not met by the game play.

That depends on what kind of hero you're looking at.
Was [Kyle Reese] a hero, even though he utterly failed to destroy the Terminator in one-on-one combat?
Was Dutch a hero, even though he couldn't kill the Predator in straight combat?
Was Van Helsing a hero, even though he had to assassinate Dracula's brides while they slept, instead of beating them in straight combat?
Was Ripley a hero, even though the only way she could beat the alien was to boot it out an airlock?
Was Wesley a hero, even though he had to resort to trickery to defeat Vizzini?
Was Steve Andrews a hero, even though he had to freeze the Blob into stasis, instead of pummeling it into submission?

I guess it depends on what you think a hero IS.

I've also run scenarios with minimal MDC armor and weak MDC weapons and it worked brilliantly with the group I running at the time because every one of them were hardcore problem solvers with a high tolerance for continuous failure and a low expectation threshold for success.

And that's the type of person who could survive the monsters of Chaos/Rifts Earth.
The guys who just ran on out and starts hitting a brodkil with a baseball bat would be pretty swiftly weeded out.
The guy who doses his livestock with some slow-acting poison and leaves them out where the brodkill can find and eat them, THAT guy's more likely to survive.
It doesn't really matter which of those types your players prefer to play, because there were plenty of both types of NPCs running around when the Rifts came, and apparently enough of the second group survived to keep Rifts Earth fairly populated with humans.

jaymz wrote:KC - Oddly enough I agree to everything you have said as being able to be done. Where I disagree is that I am not conivinced everything you have posted would be as effective as you think it would be. All of it is good and useful for any campaign though I'll have to make notes of some of it to use.

Well, I never said it would be easy.

Was John Connor a hero, even though he utterly failed to destroy the Terminator in one-on-one combat?
Was Dutch a hero, even though he couldn't kill the Predator in straight combat?
Was Van Helsing a hero, even though he had to assassinate Dracula's brides while they slept, instead of beating them in straight combat?
Was Ripley a hero, even though the only way she could beat the alien was to boot it out an airlock?
Was Wesley a hero, even though he had to resort to trickery to defeat Vizzini?
Was Steve Andrews a hero, even though he had to freeze the Blob into stasis, instead of pummeling it into submission?

I'll stick with the three I know well enough to comment on;

John Connor doesn't beat a Terminator, but the actual movie is just as focused on The Terminator, who does beat the more advanced system in several types of combat, some include trickery. But mostly it stops in "40mm Grenade and push into lava". Honestly they tacked on to the movie. I'd have started throwing bits of the frozen metal into the molten metal right after the freeze and watch a midiget chase us from then on.

Dutch does beat the Predator in straight combat. The predator avoids his lethal traps. It falls for two traps, one being the bonefire to draw him out, the other being a distraction. It's been a while, but I think it ends with him braining him with a rock, not sure how much more brute force style can be accomplished.

Riply still burns several of the aliens, and mows through quite a few with her pulse rifle, goes toe-to-toe with the queen and beats the tar out of it for a bit with a giant suit of power armor AND gets it into the airlock via that brute force. Let's not forget she pumped it's laying thingie full of explosive shells minutes before in a fit of ill thought out rage.

Wesley also previously defeats a Spaniard in sword play and a giant in unarmed combat to prove his physical prowess in open combat, and after he had talked Vizzini down a bit, how exactly couldn't he just lunge for him and beat him to death? Once the man was talking, he took a simpler alternative that had less risk, it was hardly his only option.

I'm not sure how any of those qualify as any sort of clear cut "brains / cleaver planning beats tech / brute force". You could be right about the blob and Van Helsing I don't know off the top of my head to cite a reference so I'll grant you both of them.

Even in your own example, you show that you need an MD weapon to fight it, with just a chance that they happened to have equipment that could be treated as MD and it happened to be entirely practical. How do you find an animal is weak to weapons made of animal bone? Trial and error?

Last time I ran an SDC game in Rifts (i.e players have extremely restricted MD access) the players survived for a while by fleeing, then got Carpet and had a better time fleeing. They have since refused to run a similar game in Rifts and I have no interest in running one. They took to a homebrew Fallout table top when they want quick fights that are deadly, characters only take a few minutes to make for it.

Cinos wrote:John Connor doesn't beat a Terminator, but the actual movie is just as focused on The Terminator, who does beat the more advanced system in several types of combat, some include trickery. But mostly it stops in "40mm Grenade and push into lava". Honestly they tacked on to the movie. I'd have started throwing bits of the frozen metal into the molten metal right after the freeze and watch a midiget chase us from then on.

My mistake!
I meant Kyle Reese.

Dutch does beat the Predator in straight combat. The predator avoids his lethal traps. It falls for two traps, one being the bonefire to draw him out, the other being a distraction. It's been a while, but I think it ends with him braining him with a rock, not sure how much more brute force style can be accomplished.

It ends with him luring the predator into a deadfall and dropping a tree on it.
He gets repeatedly pimpslapped by the predator until that point.

He does try to brain it with a rock, after it's trapped, pinned, and dying, but I think that's when he notices the self-destruct and starts running.

Riply still burns several of the aliens, and mows through quite a few with her pulse rifle, goes toe-to-toe with the queen and beats the tar out of it for a bit with a giant suit of power armor AND gets it into the airlock via that brute force. Let's not forget she pumped it's laying thingie full of explosive shells minutes before in a fit of ill thought out rage.

Not in the first movie.

Wesley also previously defeats a Spaniard in sword play and a giant in unarmed combat to prove his physical prowess in open combat, and after he had talked Vizzini down a bit, how exactly couldn't he just lunge for him and beat him to death? Once the man was talking, he took a simpler alternative that had less risk, it was hardly his only option.

He couldn't kill Vizzini while the princess was hostage. IIRC, Vizzini only let the princess go after Wesley gave his word to settle things another way.
Any way you slice it, he didn't just run up and stab his enemy; he used trickery.

Even in your own example, you show that you need an MD weapon to fight it, with just a chance that they happened to have equipment that could be treated as MD and it happened to be entirely practical.

Actually, my example only shows that they DID use a weapon that counted as MD against the creature, not that it was the only way to defeat it.
They could have lured it into the water and drowned it, or used poison, or jammed a rock in its pneumostome.

How do you find an animal is weak to weapons made of animal bone? Trial and error?

Yup.
And/or luck.

Last time I ran an SDC game in Rifts (i.e players have extremely restricted MD access) the players survived for a while by fleeing, then got Carpet and had a better time fleeing. They have since refused to run a similar game in Rifts and I have no interest in running one. They took to a homebrew Fallout table top when they want quick fights that are deadly, characters only take a few minutes to make for it.

Cool.
Again, though, this isn't about how your group likes to run things, it's about how humanity might have survived so many MDC creatures.

WildWalker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

WildWalker wrote: <snip> How did they finally succeed?

After a series of hit and run attacks, and some prolonged chasing, they eventually determined that the creatures were vulnerable to energy, and were able to pick the creatures off using an SDC laser rifle.

Interestingly enough you just described a scenario that can be modeled with a 1:1 ratio and MDC being a switch with a specific vulnerability.

Yup.

Dutch: Can be modeled with SDC and AR. Actually models BETTER that way.

I wasn't saying that any of these creatures were mega-damage, only that they weren't beaten in a straight-up fight, yet they're still considered to be heroes.

As to them being the kind of heroes that would be fun to play...

...Is a matter of personal taste, yes.

The point is that they're still heroes, even though they didn't slug it out toe-to-toe with their enemies.

I don't recall making the claim that characters who use trickery aren't heroes. Even in straight up MD to MD fights, trickery wins out. I think you've missed a point if you're holding that as your argument, the point is (Was) people can't survive as presented. You still have given at best one example of an M.D.C being who has been killed via non-exploitable weakness (Wood through heart, specific energy weakness) using rules as is without the use of M.D weapons and equipment.

And thanks on the correction for the predator, had to re-watch it. Speaking of which, their squad still had enough fire power to blast that thing into a blood stain and almost did, managing to wound it with personal fire arms. IT was using the hit and run, not that it was super powerful in direct combat. That's WHY he had to slink around and shoot from the trees, a burst from one of those M-16's could have smoked him pretty bad. Also, dropping logs, S.D.C Weapons.

Cinos wrote:the point is (Was) people can't survive as presented.

The point is wrong, for all the reasons I've gone over.

You still have given at best one example of an M.D.C being who has been killed via non-exploitable weakness (Wood through heart, specific energy weakness) using rules as is without the use of M.D weapons and equipment.

You say that as if I could only come up with one. Fact is, I was only asked about the last time it came up, so I talked about my last session.
More to the point, you say that as if all the other methods and means I've mentioned couldn't possibly work unless I came up with an example of it happening in play.
Neither of those is an honest implication.

You gave one example so it's the one I ran with. There is a term used for the latter part of that paragraph, and it is commonly called "Theorycraft", though in this case I guess the term would be "Theoryrift?" (Title does not lend itself to the term well). In which you could write a million pages on why you think something works beyond a doubt, but when you try it, it explodes into horrible horrible messes. This is why -play experience- is needed for examples, why I toss out your other examples because I either offered an instant counter point to why it does not work (silverware into weapons), or have seen many examples to the contrary.

Cinos wrote:You gave one example so it's the one I ran with.

And that's fine.
Saying "You still have given at best one example...." as if it were somehow a failing on my part is not fine.

There is a term used for the latter part of that paragraph, and it is commonly called "Theorycraft", though in this case I guess the term would be "Theoryrift?" (Title does not lend itself to the term well). In which you could write a million pages on why you think something works beyond a doubt, but when you try it, it explodes into horrible horrible messes. This is why -play experience- is needed for examples, why I toss out your other examples because I either offered an instant counter point to why it does not work (silverware into weapons), or have seen many examples to the contrary.

So.... "here are the ways in which the survivors might kill these creatures" is theorycraft, but "nuh-uh, no way anybody could survive!" is NOT?

The fact is, people did survive; we know this because that's what the setting describes.
The burden of proof is on those who believe that everybody would have been wiped out, because it's those people who are conflicting with established knowledge.

Also, I've established that it's perfectly possible, albeit not easy, for SDC beings (without Mega-Damage gear) to kill MDC beings.
That's a fact.
There is a relatively large population in the fictional world of Rifts Earth, and most of this population has little to no mega-damage equipment.
That is also a fact.

The notion that things couldn't happen that way, or wouldn't happen that way, or shouldn't happen that way, is just a notion based on a string of imagined behaviors and events that is far more convoluted than anything that I've presented here.

Also, trying to calculate the odds of millions of NPCs based on the actions of players simply isn't a valid method.
NPCs and players operate very differently.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, trying to calculate the odds of millions of NPCs based on the actions of players simply isn't a valid method.
NPCs and players operate very differently.

Your entire examples are given by examples of players in your games. You've invalidated your own counter point with your counter-counter-point

To the Theroycraft it's "These things have a weakness, thus it is clear someone will find and exploit this weakness before getting murdered ten times over by said monster." Also, as I showed above, the vast majority of presented monsters do not have an innate weakness. Also, Suffocation is not a valid form of combat against an MDC being without MDC tools. What are you going to do? Put him in a noose he'll snap? Throw him in water so he can swim at you? Try and do it with bear hands and get brained by a normal punch or a bit that rips out your arm? If you don't have Power armor or access to supernatural strength (an MD weapon) you won't get far with that.

There is a flaw in logical thinking from a world setting, and why Rifts in general requires a suspension of disbelief because the results of the writing do not follow sound logic. The 'fact' is that a writer made a world and then tried to justify how it got there by waving a writers wand. It happens some times, and it doesn't make Rifts a bad setting, but to say it happened by logical steps is just wrong.

At best one example meaning limits of what you have shown, the point was that you were unable to defend the half dozen points you attempted to make, I was willing to grant at least one example had merit from my side, so avoid trying to construe comments to be offensive if you would.

How exactly would you deal with Brodkil tribes? In cannon plainly stated they typically run in nomadic tribes of 24 to 30, at times more and that Tolkeen had more then 9,000 of them as shock troopers alone (and that most of them escaped the attack). Just one or two of these things looking for a good time would DEVASTATE an SDC community. A half dozen could shatter an S.D.C fortification. And I doubt simple traps like bear traps, pit traps and the like will do much (keep in mind most if not all back in the dark ages will not have bionics and thus can still turn invisible).

Afterthought; No the burden of proof is on the person trying to validate their setting as sensible. If I write a world where people have wings, but don't say how they get wings, but everything else on earth is the same (like people still wanting jetpacks), I'm the writer and I'm the one who should be making sense of these wings and their impact on the world.

Cinos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, trying to calculate the odds of millions of NPCs based on the actions of players simply isn't a valid method.
NPCs and players operate very differently.

Your entire examples are given by examples of players in your games. You've invalidated your own counter point with your counter-counter-point

It's hard to believe that you're serious.
I've listed all the ways that MDC creatures can be killed, pointed out how common it would be for them to have vulnerabilities that could be taken advantage of, brought in movie characters to demonstrate the heroism involved in fighting something unsuccessfully again and again until you discover a weakness or come up with another plan, I've brought up how MDC creatures really aren't that common, as well as how they're not all out to murder everybody they see, and I've linked to a thread where a number of pages are spent discussing how SDC defenders can overcome MD predators and monsters.

All I've mentioned about my own roleplaying was a brief description of my last adventure, at your request.

If you want to pretend that anything important hinged on my description, I don't know what to tell you except that you're not making any sense.

To the Theroycraft it's "These things have a weakness, thus it is clear someone will find and exploit this weakness before getting murdered ten times over by said monster."

Not that somebody will, but that they can.
And, considering the population of Rifts Earth, they obviously DID.
Remember, my argument is only that it's clearly not impossible for SDC humans to survive MD creatures in the numbers described in the books.
All I'm establishing is that SDC creatures are not helpless against MD creatures, and are in fact capable of killing them.

Also, as I showed above, the vast majority of presented monsters do not have an innate weakness.

No. You showed a long list of monsters, most of which weren't even IN Chaos Earth, and most of the rest of which do have weaknesses if only in the form of needing to breathe and to have blood pump through their veins.
I asked you to list how many were left of your list once you took out all the critters that can't be electrocuted, drowned, poisoned, etc. etc. etc.
And you never got back to me on that.
IF you ever decide to, feel free to post that list at any time.
Until then, why bring this up as if you had demonstrated anything significant?

Moreover, I already pointed out that there are far more races of creatures that have special vulnerabilities than those that don't.
Remember me asking you to calculate how many different races could be made just using the random generation tables in the back of the Rifts book?
I'm not going to do the math, but I'm it's a higher number than the entire list of species that Palladium has described for the entire game, much less your list.
And the Chaos Earth tables are even more complex, and can generate even higher numbers.

Also, Suffocation is not a valid form of combat against an MDC being without MDC tools. What are you going to do? Put him in a noose he'll snap?

No, I'd put him in a noose that he won't snap.
Or, as I said, drown him, or park something heavy on his windpipe, or bury him alive, or find some other way to do it.

Throw him in water so he can swim at you

Believe it or not, not all creatures can swim. Some that can, can't swim well.
Many that CAN swim normally can't swim under various circumstances such as really rough water, getting repeatedly shot or otherwise attacked, or being incapacitated somehow.

There is a flaw in logical thinking from a world setting, and why Rifts in general requires a suspension of disbelief because the results of the writing do not follow sound logic.

It's your logic that's lacking here.
When you hear something proposed, you think of the most bass-ackward, mentally disabled way of attempting the feat, and assume that's the only way to do it.
But it's not.
People with creativity and intelligence can find all sorts of methods that work pretty well.

The 'fact' is that a writer made a world and then tried to justify how it got there by waving a writers wand.

No. The fact is that the writer made the world with a specific tone and rules, and it all allows for (mandates, actually) humans being able to survive the coming of the Rifts.
The point here is that if you think that MDC doesn't work with the setting, that's simply because you don't understand the setting.
The author does, and created it a specific way for specific reasons.

At best one example meaning limits of what you have shown, the point was that you were unable to defend the half dozen points you attempted to make, I was willing to grant at least one example had merit from my side, so avoid trying to construe comments to be offensive if you would.

That sentence doesn't even make any sense.
What are you trying to say?

How exactly would you deal with Brodkil tribes? In cannon plainly stated they typically run in nomadic tribes of 24 to 30, at times more and that Tolkeen had more then 9,000 of them as shock troopers alone (and that most of them escaped the attack). Just one or two of these things looking for a good time would DEVASTATE an SDC community. A half dozen could shatter an S.D.C fortification. And I doubt simple traps like bear traps, pit traps and the like will do much (keep in mind most if not all back in the dark ages will not have bionics and thus can still turn invisible).

In the areas where there are many brodkil running around, humans might be wiped out. Or find ways to hide, or find another supernatural creature/race that can protect them, or use magic and/or psionics to chase the demons off, or offer sacrifices to appease them, or run far away and live somewhere else.
Nobody's saying that all humans in all parts of the world don't have to worry about monsters; they clearly do.
But monsters aren't everywhere, all the time, and they're not all always about mindlessly slaughtering everything that they see.
Brodkil specifically "travel the wilderness attacking travelers, villages, and towns to plunder what they need. They are fair hunters, but would rather steal livestock or waylay and eat some unsuspecting travelers than spend time stalking wild animals."
Nothing in there about them killing off entire towns, and I don't see any reason why it would be a common occurrence. They eat people, and they steal from people, and sometimes they even work with or for people.
Why would they want to make us extinct?

Afterthought; No the burden of proof is on the person trying to validate their setting as sensible. If I write a world where people have wings, but don't say how they get wings, but everything else on earth is the same (like people still wanting jetpacks), I'm the writer and I'm the one who should be making sense of these wings and their impact on the world.

Since it's been established how people survive on Rifts Earth, in the books, that doesn't matter.
The burden is on you to prove that what the books say would be wrong.

If you decide that people have wings through evolution, and somebody shows up saying that they think that's bunk, does that mean that you're the one in the wrong?
That you are obliged to spend your time and effort convincing that person of the legitimacy of your story?
Not so much.
It's the person complaining who wants to change things, so it's up to them to provide some kind of decent reason why a change would be necessary or beneficial.
In this case, that's you.

Just to pipe up a bit....

While I agree with most of what KC has said even while we debated, I disagree with how effective any of it really would have been. If one doesn't agree with chaning SDC-MDC to 10-1 then I think one has to admit that the public had to have access to at least very minor MD weapons of some kind. Maybe Wilks is a left over of that since thier pistols are lower powered than most? Or some of the NG weapons since they to are lower powered than the typical high grade stuff? Just a thought.

Also KC, just to point out, Chaos Earth doesn't have enough material released for us to truly know what kinds of monsters are on Chaos Earth and the game itself encourages using Monster/D-Bees etc from Rifts so to be fiar that makes ALL Monsters/D-bees etc out of Rifts fair game for use in Chaos Earth.

A 1:10 ratio makes much more sense, and it's something I'd use in my game.

just a side note, presumably at least *some* MD(C) tech would be relatively available right after the cataclysm.

oh, you're not likely to find military-grade laser rifles or anything (though if there's a nearby military base/depot, you never know). but you'll probably be able to find, say, heavy machinery that is built with low-grade MDC metals to provide better protection in the event of a building collapse (so especially wrecking/demolitions equipment will have it), mining equipment, and even some buildings (as the materials became more common, they would be incorporated into new buildings and such). then, in order to work with those MDC metals/materials, you would need someone who can weld it... thus making welding tools likely to deal MDC. also some construction tools (such as drills, saws, etc) if you have even so much as a single machine shop in town. if you have a factory that produces MDC materials, then by definition you will need tools that deal MD to work those metals. if someone incorporates MDC materials into roads to reduce maintenance costs, then you need MD tools to be able to do roadwork in case a pipe underneath bursts. furthermore, police forces likely had access to some MDC and MD tech, albeit not much. odds are good some private citizens probably owned something as well. armored cars and such would likely provide some minimal MDC protection too. consider that the glitter boy, SAMAS, and other NEMA tech indicates that MDC tech had advanced quite far... you've got guns that deal 3d6x10 MD and armor that has 770 MDC for the glitter boy, as an example. something like the materials used in plastic man armor had probably become moderately commonplace, by comparison (not something you might see in every household, but certainly found to some extent in most towns/cities, possibly used as a building frame material even).

so when you consider that various places will in fact have some minimal amount of MD tech, just not military grade, i think it becomes a lot more likely. i mean, i'd rather not be the guy assigned to use an MD jackhammer on a gargoyle or anything, but if it came down to it... i'd rather have an MD jackhammer or welding torch than nothing.

combine this with the occasional super psionics types, super powers, mystics (who could in fact start developing immediately for all we know), and so forth... i don't see any reason for it to be impossible for humans to survive. oh, they'd have to be picky about using up resources, but it wouldn't be impossible.

Shark_Force wrote:just a side note, presumably at least *some* MD(C) tech would be relatively available right after the cataclysm.

oh, you're not likely to find military-grade laser rifles or anything (though if there's a nearby military base/depot, you never know). but you'll probably be able to find, say, heavy machinery that is built with low-grade MDC metals to provide better protection in the event of a building collapse (so especially wrecking/demolitions equipment will have it), mining equipment, and even some buildings (as the materials became more common, they would be incorporated into new buildings and such). then, in order to work with those MDC metals/materials, you would need someone who can weld it... thus making welding tools likely to deal MDC. also some construction tools (such as drills, saws, etc) if you have even so much as a single machine shop in town. if you have a factory that produces MDC materials, then by definition you will need tools that deal MD to work those metals. if someone incorporates MDC materials into roads to reduce maintenance costs, then you need MD tools to be able to do roadwork in case a pipe underneath bursts. furthermore, police forces likely had access to some MDC and MD tech, albeit not much. odds are good some private citizens probably owned something as well. armored cars and such would likely provide some minimal MDC protection too. consider that the glitter boy, SAMAS, and other NEMA tech indicates that MDC tech had advanced quite far... you've got guns that deal 3d6x10 MD and armor that has 770 MDC for the glitter boy, as an example. something like the materials used in plastic man armor had probably become moderately commonplace, by comparison (not something you might see in every household, but certainly found to some extent in most towns/cities, possibly used as a building frame material even).

so when you consider that various places will in fact have some minimal amount of MD tech, just not military grade, i think it becomes a lot more likely. i mean, i'd rather not be the guy assigned to use an MD jackhammer on a gargoyle or anything, but if it came down to it... i'd rather have an MD jackhammer or welding torch than nothing.

combine this with the occasional super psionics types, super powers, mystics (who could in fact start developing immediately for all we know), and so forth... i don't see any reason for it to be impossible for humans to survive. oh, they'd have to be picky about using up resources, but it wouldn't be impossible.

I did make mention that low end MD stuff would have to be availebl to the mases to some degree a few posts back

jaymz wrote: If one doesn't agree with chaning SDC-MDC to 10-1 then I think one has to admit that the public had to have access to at least very minor MD weapons of some kind. Maybe Wilks is a left over of that since thier pistols are lower powered than most? Or some of the NG weapons since they to are lower powered than the typical high grade stuff? Just a thought.

Oh, definitely.
For one thing, there were a lot of NEMA weapons that would be lying around after the soldiers themselves were killed, and those could be (and would be) picked up by anybody.
Mega-damage gear would be a key part of humanity's survival, just not the only part. Everything I described would be far, far more effective if you have a couple guys with basic MD energy rifles, or a rail gun, or even just a mega-damage vehicle.

But more to the point, RUE 356:
Before the Great Cataclysm, Mega-Damage weapons and MDC materials were restricted mainly to military use...
Key word being "mainly."
This means that while the bulk of MD weapons and structures were military, there were civilian uses as well. Some would probably be police, but other stuff would be used in heavy industry or for other applications.
And we know that Wilk's manufactured laser weapons before the cataclysm, from the same page:
The technology of the past it had discovered did not include armor, robots or vehicles, but laser systems, including laser weapons, and advanced electronics and optic systems.

Judging by the history of firearms in this nation, I wouldn't be surprised if military grade energy weapons were also manufactured with civilian models with key features restricted or disabled (like the Mega-Damage parts).
And I wouldn't be surprised if there were kits and modifications that people could (illegally) use to bring back the military features.
Not that I imagine that these would be very common, just a drop in the overall mega-damage bucket.

Also KC, just to point out, Chaos Earth doesn't have enough material released for us to truly know what kinds of monsters are on Chaos Earth and the game itself encourages using Monster/D-Bees etc from Rifts so to be fiar that makes ALL Monsters/D-bees etc out of Rifts fair game for use in Chaos Earth.

You are correct, with the following addendum:
-Unless there is specific mention of the creatures arriving at a later date.
-Even though GMs are encouraged to use them, that doesn't mean that they'd be something that NPCs would have to contend with in the main Rifts/Chaos Earth setting. If a GM doesn't choose to use them, they weren't necessarily there at the time. Unlike in Rifts proper where if one didn't want there to be, say, Brodkil, he'd have to specifically remove them.
If you follow.
-I'm pretty sure that there's no indication about the numbers or population spreads of general Rifts monsters, so while there may well have BEEN some brodkil in Chaos Earth, we don't know their numbers or locations, which would be crucial to knowing how big a threat they'd be to humanity overall.

Just for clarification, my main point here is that every GM has to choose how to interpret things and what kind of history to make to fill in the gaps in the official text.
When doing this, the GM can either interpret things in such a way that the setting makes sense, or in such a way that the setting does not make sense.
I personally choose to interpret things in such a way that the setting makes sense.
Other people are free to choose the opposite, of course. My only real problem with that is when people choose to interpret the text in such a way that it does not make sense, then complain that the rules or setting is broken.

So if people want to play with a 1:10 ratio, and there are a lot of them, that's cool with me (though I think it misses part of the point of mega-damage, and that it would cause some changes and problems)... as long as it's framed something like "I just prefer things to be lower powered," or "For the campaign I'm running, this is what works best," etc. etc.
But saying that the setting requires such a change to make sense, that is something that I'll have to object to.

Shark_Force wrote:oh, you're not likely to find military-grade laser rifles or anything (though if there's a nearby military base/depot, you never know).

I think it's kind of like what Plumley said in We Were Soldiers, explaining why he didn't bother carrying an assault rifle:
"If the time comes I need one, there'll be plenty lying on the ground."

I personally choose to interpret things in such a way that the setting makes sense.

And there's the problem, that a person MUST choose to interpret the setting to make sense. That's bad writing.

To the rest of our rebuttal, I can more or less (not entirely, but I'm keeping this short) reply with "Blind fandom" to the bulk of it and be done. If you want to insinuate about my intelligence, feel free, but keep it to yourself.

Cinos wrote:

I personally choose to interpret things in such a way that the setting makes sense.

And there's the problem, that a person MUST choose to interpret the setting to make sense. That's bad writing.

The sun is hot.

To the rest of our rebuttal, I can more or less (not entirely, but I'm keeping this short) reply with "Blind fandom" to the bulk of it and be done. If you want to insinuate about my intelligence, feel free, but keep it to yourself.

wow, have I been getting it wrong, Ive been thinking that all this MDC junk isn't powerful enough, I have been thinking of proposing a house rule where everything's damage gets either tripled or quaded with the range doubled to balance it, sorry but I'm not comfortable with my not being able to easily kill a grunt trooper. Even with the highest damage weapon man portable I can find the probability of killing a guy wearing old dead boy armor is 61%, take into account that this weapon is listed as an anti tank weapon. just doesn't seem right.

BIBBI wrote:wow, have I been getting it wrong, Ive been thinking that all this MDC junk isn't powerful enough, I have been thinking of proposing a house rule where everything's damage gets either tripled or quaded with the range doubled to balance it, sorry but I'm not comfortable with my not being able to easily kill a grunt trooper. Even with the highest damage weapon man portable I can find the probability of killing a guy wearing old dead boy armor is 61%, take into account that this weapon is listed as an anti tank weapon. just doesn't seem right.

Armor in Rifts has advanced more swiftly than weapon damage.
Which means that yeah, you're going to need anti-tank weapons if you want to blast through body armor in one shot.
It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

BIBBI wrote:wow, have I been getting it wrong, Ive been thinking that all this MDC junk isn't powerful enough, I have been thinking of proposing a house rule where everything's damage gets either tripled or quaded with the range doubled to balance it, sorry but I'm not comfortable with my not being able to easily kill a grunt trooper. Even with the highest damage weapon man portable I can find the probability of killing a guy wearing old dead boy armor is 61%, take into account that this weapon is listed as an anti tank weapon. just doesn't seem right.

Armor in Rifts has advanced more swiftly than weapon damage.
Which means that yeah, you're going to need anti-tank weapons if you want to blast through body armor in one shot.
It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Not to mention most RPGs are designed with inherent survivability of the characters included. If games were alway made to be realistic, the vast majority of people get very tired of making new characters almost every week/adventure.

jaymz wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

BIBBI wrote:wow, have I been getting it wrong, Ive been thinking that all this MDC junk isn't powerful enough, I have been thinking of proposing a house rule where everything's damage gets either tripled or quaded with the range doubled to balance it, sorry but I'm not comfortable with my not being able to easily kill a grunt trooper. Even with the highest damage weapon man portable I can find the probability of killing a guy wearing old dead boy armor is 61%, take into account that this weapon is listed as an anti tank weapon. just doesn't seem right.

Armor in Rifts has advanced more swiftly than weapon damage.
Which means that yeah, you're going to need anti-tank weapons if you want to blast through body armor in one shot.
It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Not to mention most RPGs are designed with inherent survivability of the characters included. If games were alway made to be realistic, the vast majority of people get very tired of making new characters almost every week/adventure.

That too.

If you want your players to insta-kill their enemies, put them up against weaker enemies.
The books stat out armor like Plastic Man for a reason, and nobody ever said that all your enemies will be charging into battle with undamaged armor.

I just want to jump in and say a few things people seem to ignore about Chaos Earth, MD in general, etc...

Point One
Pre-RIFTS lets say the USA Population is 350 Million ( including illegals )
Alright. How many will Die in the Flooding, Volcano Eruptions and aftermath and Ley Line Storms alone ?
I believe they said in Rifts 90% dies in the initial weeks. If that is correct, that would leave only 25 Million people in the USA scattered around the nation.
Alright. How many will die due to Monsters, Demons, Deevils, etc ... Anyone who crosses their path without MD weapons is a sure goner. Special Vulnerabilities or not, the Monsters are going to win the battle through attrition. They would kill hundreds of Humans for every single one of them that dies at least. Let be fair ( ) and say HALF of the surviviors not killed by the enviroment itself is killed off in that first Year. That means the USA Population goes from 25 Million to 12.5 Million in total, scattered around. Alot of these surviviors will be the Psychics, Magic-Users or people with access to MD Technologies.

Point Two
12.5 Million survivior is alot is you think about it. Like minded people will group togther over time of course. The Technology Users would form Towns with protective Walls and weapons. Psychic communitieswould band togther of time and develope their power together and expand on them. The Magic Users would group togther, teach each other spells, and the most useful spells would survive the generations.

Point Three
Over time these small groups might encounter each other and trade resources and people to expand their defense abilitites. By the late Dark Ages most places will have Technology (whats left), Psychics and Magic being used together in defense of their communities. Technology however is becoming less and less part of most communities due to lack of repair of ability to repair md tech or build new tech. Only a few places kept this knowledge or ability.

Point FOUR
By the PA Calendar of RIFTS, the World is in recovery and is turning the tide back against the monsters. The World is no longer Post-Apocolypic due to this. Though the rual areas still look like it might be.
MD Technolgy has reached the level it was at Before the RIFTS once again due to people finding lost Technology and blueprints or reverse engineering items over time.

Point Five
Back when the Rifts Erupted the majority of humans did die. More was killed by monsters of course.
People (humans) reproduce quickly as seen in history.

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NOW, as for MDC to SDC Ratio thing. It does not matter if you use MDC as is, 50-1, 10-1 or 1-1 ratio.
Really it does not matter at all.

Myself I've switched over to SDC on a 1-1 ratio. I use AR rules, Pentration Value rules and do not use "Mega-Damage" as a concept to get the same feeling from the setting. How ? I give any "MD" weapons a PV-Capacity of 8 or 9. Meaning they can penitrate Tank Armor. Weapons with the PV required to harm Tanks (PV 8-9) do not even bother to roll damage against Tanks of course.
Including Natural AR means some thing can still resist taking any damage even if you have the right PVC to roll damage vs a target, which makes some things better than normal "MD" as written.
My Glitterboys have a Natural AR 18 with SDC 770. They require Weapons with PV 8 or 9 to even bothering to roll damage. Even then if the attack was lower than the NAR, no damage is done at all. The GB Boomgum has a PV rating of 9. Against NAR it still needs to beat the NAR.
Vehicle Style Machines however still use Normal Artifical AR rules. Rolls lower than the AR Hit and damage, and rolls over penetrate the Vehicle. Why do I use this, it keep the idea normal Vehicles are inferior to Power-Armor or Giant Robots, etc...

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:o & i just relised a 10:1 scale means we srsly need to change rail guns & rockets otherwise u get railguns doin 1D4x10SDC per shot & 1D4x100SDC per burst so their just heavy machineguns that cost as much as sports cars

Actually since that is whatthey were considered that is what the essentially are. They also have superior range, weigh about the same and can fir at a much higher rate than the typical mg can along with carrying more ammo. They may do teh same damage per round bt railguns will end p still doing upwards of double the damage of a Hvy MG with bursts. Besides how many people actually use a the single fire option on a railgun anyway? A 10-1 ration may in fact allow people to think and use it against unarmoured oppoents now since it will put down a typical human with nor armour instead of blowing them completely apart.

oh god thats so lame. why woud anyone pay like 100k for a railgun that weighs a jilion pounds & needs expensive ammo & has a radioactive nuclear power doodad that u have to lug around when u can get a machinegun for 1 or 2% of the price & do as much damage? all the other weapons on a 10:1 MDC scale are totes badass & do way more damage than their SDC equivs but railguns basicly get turned into silly crap that only chumps & zilionares buy. ditto a buncha MDC rockets & grenades.

railguns & explosives are totes things that need their damage boosted before you do the 10:1 rule to em

Anyone worth their Salt who changes the mdc ratio will look at other PB rpg for railguns styled weapons. They are around in HU-AU/GG. NB and HU has Particle Beam Weapons. HU has tons of Energy Weapons to look over.

Which is why i eventually just went to SDC only. Everything Rifts has can be found in my SDc Settings. With a more United rules system ... The SDC Systems.

Which makes the RIFTS Setting still possible as is setting wise.

Atomic Ray wrote:techno-goth

That SDC functional conversion with AP values is inspired and works for me 100%

Nice on several fronts...I will consume

Thanks

No Problem ARay. Glade to Help.

The PV rules can be found in these books :
() The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons. With tons of SDC weapons which use the rules.
() The Heroes Unlimited GM Guide. This Expands the PV from 8 to 9.

Both Book also include TISSUE DAMAGE rules for weapons which is great to use too.

I use a 30 : 1 ratio, with an armour penetration system piled on top of that.

I like the 30 because that means that even an early/weak MD weapon like a Wilk's Pistol can and will still kill a human in a single hit, but it doesn't put out of reason using a .50 calibre machinegun as a weapon for relatively low-tech and poor communities.

With the armour penetration system on top of that, gluing the cheapest MD-dealing weapons together to form a super gun also isn't an option, and it makes all those vehicle-mounted weapons make more sense.

The AP system works as follows:
SDC weapons versus MDC materials - they are treated as having a -2 AP value, with no value getting higher than 1 AP.
No AP value - this is your light arms fire, and your personal melee weapon. These weapons deal normal damage to unarmoured targets, but only half damage to targets with an armour value of 1. They do minimum damage, without any +X damage (ie: your gun that does 1d4x10+10 now only deals 10 flat). It does no damage to higher-armoured targets;

1 AP value - deals normal damage to unarmoured* and AV 1 targets, half to AV 2, minimum to AV 3, and nothing to higher-armoured targets;

2 AP value - deals 1.5 times damage to unarmoured and AV 1 targets, normal damage to AV 2, half to AV 3, and minimum to AV 4, and nothing to AV 5 targets (the highest armour value).

3 AP value - deals 2 times damage to unarmoured and AV 1 targets, 1.5 times damage to AV 2, normal damage to AV 3, half to AV 4, and minimum to AV 5 targets.

4 AP value - deals 2.5 times damge to unarmoured and AV 1 targets, 2 times damage to AV 2, 1.5 times damage to AV 3, normal to AV 4, and half to AV 5 targets.

*I use this to indicate relatively "weak" but ultimately protective materials, such as hides, thin layers of metal, wood, etc... The major difference between a "0" AV and a 1 AV is effectively one is a military-grade armour, while the other is either piece-meal or hide. Another indicator is multiple armour values; a kevlar vest for instance is effectively AV 0, but counts as AV 1 against small arms fire. Or in MD terms, CS Deadboy armour is AV 1, while something like Plastic Man is AV 0, and only offers protection in the form of MDC.

The scale works as follows (in MDC):
unarmoured or AV 0 is most commercially available body armours, such as plastic man, etc... a most MDC Dee-Bees, like a grackle-tooth's hide, the under-belly of a fury beetle, etc..., a typical MDC vehicle like the Big Boss.

AV 1 is military-grade personal body armour, the oldest and lightest of powered armours (the "heavy" Chipwell stuff), most GAW light vehicle retro-fits, cyborg bodies.

AV 2 is light and medium powered armour, light APCs such as the Mark V, light giant robots (spider-scout walker), Fury-Beetle hide, the majority of dragon hides, GAW tank and APC retro-fits.

AV 3 is heavy PA like the Glitterboy (which has +1 AV versus lasers), medium and heavy APCs, light and medium tanks, medium and heavy giant robots, major supernatural monsters, an DHTs.

AV 4 is typical military fortifications, heavy tanks.

AV 5 is mega-city walls, like the walls of Chi-Town. Basically only the most hardened walls should be of this grade, as there are only a few weapons that deal damage at a 1 : 1 ratio.

For a sample of the AP value of stuff, look at the following:
AP 0 - Wilk's lasers, vibro-weapons.

AP 1 - New CS weaponry, Naruni-Ripper Vibro-blades.

AP 2 - C-29 Plasma Cannon, C40R railgun.

AP 3 - Short-Range AP missile, the Boomgun.

AP 4 - Main cannon on a heavy giant robot or tank.

AP 5 - a nuclear bomb, the main cannon of a firestorm mobile fortress.

I have been working with magic doing a flat 1 : 1 ratio against any and every level of armour, without any major flaws thus far.

How many people here has actually used the Pentration Value Rules from CoCW or HU-GMG ??
Or the Tissue Dasmage rules even ?

TechnoGothic wrote:How many people here has actually used the Pentration Value Rules from CoCW or HU-GMG ??
Or the Tissue Dasmage rules even ?

I use it in the modern-esque SDC games. ONce I get into games like Rifts I get rid of it and just describe what the armour can stop and not use PV. Too many variables imo.

The way I do it is:
SDC weapons stay SDC
powered armor and most vehicles under 100 tons use a 1 MDC to 10 SDC ratio
things over a hundred tons use MDC as written

I also got rid of AR and use the mechanic from another game (Stopping power and staged penetration) to simulate armor protection.

Also, ammo type makes a huge difference in damage.

-STS

slade the sniper wrote:I also got rid of AR and use the mechanic from another game (Stopping power and staged penetration) to simulate armor protection.

-STS

Mekton Zeta or Cyberpunk by any chance?

jaymz wrote:ONce I get into games like Rifts I get rid of it and just describe what the armour can stop and not use PV. Too many variables imo.

You mean a GM can just say that a pistol can't penetrate a tank no matter what? Shhaaaaaazzaaaaammm!

Yeah, see, that's what I would recommend too.

Mechanurgist wrote:

jaymz wrote:ONce I get into games like Rifts I get rid of it and just describe what the armour can stop and not use PV. Too many variables imo.

You mean a GM can just say that a pistol can't penetrate a tank no matter what? Shhaaaaaazzaaaaammm!

Yeah, see, that's what I would recommend too.

well sort of. Since I use a 10-1 ratio across the board I just state the armour stops upto X.XXmm calibre or the equivalent thereof.

In my games for example a standard 30mm round will do 2d6+3 md so if I state the armour stops upto and inclding standard 30mm rounds or the equivalent then it stops anything that does upto 2d6+3 damage.

Also in my games explosive and ramjet rounds increase damage by 50% and 100% respectively so if I change the above to state the armour stops upto and including 30mm ramjet rounds or the equivalent then teh armour would stop weapons that do upto 4d6+6 (or if you like upto 5d6) md.

I don't change it at all. All I do is play harder, I use may brains and the equipment I have to make the question of MDC a moot point.
As for how people survived the Age Of Chaos, you had people developing psychic and magical powers along w/ dbees that were used to using those talents to help defend against said demons, or enslave the people while carving out their own kingdoms, but (incidentally/accidentally) protecting the people in their realms from outside dangers.
Others just picked up the weapons of the fallen soldiers and kept fighting, plus there are monsters that hunt other monsters.
Tho' I agree w/jaymz that nerfing the damage from the Abrams' 120 was a bloody joke, here's a gun that kills every tank it comes across, even other Abrams and it barely scratches a Gargoyle, a creature of flesh and blood (albeit MDC flesh and blood).
Nerfing it even further by reducing the ratio to 1:10 is just cowardice IMO.

keir451 wrote:I don't change it at all. All I do is play harder, I use may brains and the equipment I have to make the question of MDC a moot point.
As for how people survived the Age Of Chaos, you had people developing psychic and magical powers along w/ dbees that were used to using those talents to help defend against said demons, or enslave the people while carving out their own kingdoms, but (incidentally/accidentally) protecting the people in their realms from outside dangers.
Others just picked up the weapons of the fallen soldiers and kept fighting, plus there are monsters that hunt other monsters.
Tho' I agree w/jaymz that nerfing the damage from the Abrams' 120 was a bloody joke, here's a gun that kills every tank it comes across, even other Abrams and it barely scratches a Gargoyle, a creature of flesh and blood (albeit MDC flesh and blood).
Nerfing it even further by reducing the ratio to 1:10 is just cowardice IMO.

Um a 10-1 ratio makes an abrams 120 now do teh same damage as a 120 on an Iron Fist Medium tank actually...if anythign it makes make more sense not nerf it.

jaymz wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:I also got rid of AR and use the mechanic from another game (Stopping power and staged penetration) to simulate armor protection.

-STS

Mekton Zeta or Cyberpunk by any chance?

Yeah...that's the one

-STS

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:I don't change it at all. All I do is play harder, I use may brains and the equipment I have to make the question of MDC a moot point.
As for how people survived the Age Of Chaos, you had people developing psychic and magical powers along w/ dbees that were used to using those talents to help defend against said demons, or enslave the people while carving out their own kingdoms, but (incidentally/accidentally) protecting the people in their realms from outside dangers.
Others just picked up the weapons of the fallen soldiers and kept fighting, plus there are monsters that hunt other monsters.
Tho' I agree w/jaymz that nerfing the damage from the Abrams' 120 was a bloody joke, here's a gun that kills every tank it comes across, even other Abrams and it barely scratches a Gargoyle, a creature of flesh and blood (albeit MDC flesh and blood).
Nerfing it even further by reducing the ratio to 1:10 is just cowardice IMO.

Um a 10-1 ratio makes an abrams 120 now do teh same damage as a 120 on an Iron Fist Medium tank actually...if anythign it makes make more sense not nerf it.

The Abrams 120 SHOULD already do that kind of damage if not more. IMO the Abrams should be able to kill an Iron Hammer or an Iron Fist in 1 shot. I can see that it wouls take more to kill the new CS tanks, but no more than 3 shots IMO. So instead of nerfing the armor capacities I up the damage the weapons can do thus making them MORE dangerous intead of nerfing them to have paper thin armor.
I understand individual differences, but lets be honest here, M.D.C. was MEANT to be incredibly hard to damage, nerfing it takes all the fun, danger and work out of the game. I've NEVER had a problem w/my players being able to take on heavy M.D.C. targets and find ways to carry the day, they just need to be creative about it and they always are w/no one whining about the M.D.C. values on things being too high.

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:I don't change it at all. All I do is play harder, I use may brains and the equipment I have to make the question of MDC a moot point.
As for how people survived the Age Of Chaos, you had people developing psychic and magical powers along w/ dbees that were used to using those talents to help defend against said demons, or enslave the people while carving out their own kingdoms, but (incidentally/accidentally) protecting the people in their realms from outside dangers.
Others just picked up the weapons of the fallen soldiers and kept fighting, plus there are monsters that hunt other monsters.
Tho' I agree w/jaymz that nerfing the damage from the Abrams' 120 was a bloody joke, here's a gun that kills every tank it comes across, even other Abrams and it barely scratches a Gargoyle, a creature of flesh and blood (albeit MDC flesh and blood).
Nerfing it even further by reducing the ratio to 1:10 is just cowardice IMO.

Um a 10-1 ratio makes an abrams 120 now do teh same damage as a 120 on an Iron Fist Medium tank actually...if anythign it makes make more sense not nerf it.

The Abrams 120 SHOULD already do that kind of damage if not more. IMO the Abrams should be able to kill an Iron Hammer or an Iron Fist in 1 shot. I can see that it wouls take more to kill the new CS tanks, but no more than 3 shots IMO. So instead of nerfing the armor capacities I up the damage the weapons can do thus making them MORE dangerous intead of nerfing them to have paper thin armor.
I understand individual differences, but lets be honest here, M.D.C. was MEANT to be incredibly hard to damage, nerfing it takes all the fun, danger and work out of the game. I've NEVER had a problem w/my players being able to take on heavy M.D.C. targets and find ways to carry the day, they just need to be creative about it and they always are w/no one whining about the M.D.C. values on things being too high.

IIRC the Iron Hammer is actually more armoured than the CS tanks or at least on par. I have no issue with a tank being able to take 3 or 4 hits from a 120 to get takn out. Hell and Abrams can't even kill itself wit a 120.

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:I don't change it at all. All I do is play harder, I use may brains and the equipment I have to make the question of MDC a moot point.
As for how people survived the Age Of Chaos, you had people developing psychic and magical powers along w/ dbees that were used to using those talents to help defend against said demons, or enslave the people while carving out their own kingdoms, but (incidentally/accidentally) protecting the people in their realms from outside dangers.
Others just picked up the weapons of the fallen soldiers and kept fighting, plus there are monsters that hunt other monsters.
Tho' I agree w/jaymz that nerfing the damage from the Abrams' 120 was a bloody joke, here's a gun that kills every tank it comes across, even other Abrams and it barely scratches a Gargoyle, a creature of flesh and blood (albeit MDC flesh and blood).
Nerfing it even further by reducing the ratio to 1:10 is just cowardice IMO.

Um a 10-1 ratio makes an abrams 120 now do teh same damage as a 120 on an Iron Fist Medium tank actually...if anythign it makes make more sense not nerf it.

The Abrams 120 SHOULD already do that kind of damage if not more. IMO the Abrams should be able to kill an Iron Hammer or an Iron Fist in 1 shot. I can see that it wouls take more to kill the new CS tanks, but no more than 3 shots IMO. So instead of nerfing the armor capacities I up the damage the weapons can do thus making them MORE dangerous intead of nerfing them to have paper thin armor.
I understand individual differences, but lets be honest here, M.D.C. was MEANT to be incredibly hard to damage, nerfing it takes all the fun, danger and work out of the game. I've NEVER had a problem w/my players being able to take on heavy M.D.C. targets and find ways to carry the day, they just need to be creative about it and they always are w/no one whining about the M.D.C. values on things being too high.

IIRC the Iron Hammer is actually more armoured than the CS tanks or at least on par. I have no issue with a tank being able to take 3 or 4 hits from a 120 to get takn out. Hell and Abrams can't even kill itself wit a 120.

You're last statement is incorrect jaymz, the Abrams 120 Sabot is the ONLY tank gun that can kill an Abrams. I have that as a fact from a US Army 19 kilo (Abrams pilot for those who don't know ) and if he's lyin', I'm dyin'.
No other tank mounted weapon currently fielded has that capability.
True the Iron Hammer is more heavily armored than some of the CS tanks, namely the CS Grinning Skull and the CS CTX-52 "Sky Sweeper" Ant-Aircraft tank, the CTX-50 "Line Backer" tho' has more armor than the Iron Hammer. That does generally put the Iron Hammer on par w/ CS tanks.
I, personally see 3-4 shots as being too much, I go with 1-2 with 3 being rare occasions. The exception to this are the Naruni tanks who take 3-5 shots to kill. I range the damge up into the hundreds; i.e., 1d4-1d6 x 100 for a sabot round which in my games is the only ammo a tank uses (barring those w/ energy weapons, but I increase them about the same too).

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:I don't change it at all. All I do is play harder, I use may brains and the equipment I have to make the question of MDC a moot point.
As for how people survived the Age Of Chaos, you had people developing psychic and magical powers along w/ dbees that were used to using those talents to help defend against said demons, or enslave the people while carving out their own kingdoms, but (incidentally/accidentally) protecting the people in their realms from outside dangers.
Others just picked up the weapons of the fallen soldiers and kept fighting, plus there are monsters that hunt other monsters.
Tho' I agree w/jaymz that nerfing the damage from the Abrams' 120 was a bloody joke, here's a gun that kills every tank it comes across, even other Abrams and it barely scratches a Gargoyle, a creature of flesh and blood (albeit MDC flesh and blood).
Nerfing it even further by reducing the ratio to 1:10 is just cowardice IMO.

Um a 10-1 ratio makes an abrams 120 now do teh same damage as a 120 on an Iron Fist Medium tank actually...if anythign it makes make more sense not nerf it.

The Abrams 120 SHOULD already do that kind of damage if not more. IMO the Abrams should be able to kill an Iron Hammer or an Iron Fist in 1 shot. I can see that it wouls take more to kill the new CS tanks, but no more than 3 shots IMO. So instead of nerfing the armor capacities I up the damage the weapons can do thus making them MORE dangerous intead of nerfing them to have paper thin armor.
I understand individual differences, but lets be honest here, M.D.C. was MEANT to be incredibly hard to damage, nerfing it takes all the fun, danger and work out of the game. I've NEVER had a problem w/my players being able to take on heavy M.D.C. targets and find ways to carry the day, they just need to be creative about it and they always are w/no one whining about the M.D.C. values on things being too high.

IIRC the Iron Hammer is actually more armoured than the CS tanks or at least on par. I have no issue with a tank being able to take 3 or 4 hits from a 120 to get takn out. Hell and Abrams can't even kill itself wit a 120.

You're last statement is incorrect jaymz, the Abrams 120 Sabot is the ONLY tank gun that can kill an Abrams. I have that as a fact from a US Army 19 kilo (Abrams pilot for those who don't know ) and if he's lyin', I'm dyin'.
No other tank mounted weapon currently fielded has that capability.
True the Iron Hammer is more heavily armored than some of the CS tanks, namely the CS Grinning Skull and the CS CTX-52 "Sky Sweeper" Ant-Aircraft tank, the CTX-50 "Line Backer" tho' has more armor than the Iron Hammer. That does generally put the Iron Hammer on par w/ CS tanks.
I, personally see 3-4 shots as being too much, I go with 1-2 with 3 being rare occasions. The exception to this are the Naruni tanks who take 3-5 shots to kill. I range the damge up into the hundreds; i.e., 1d4-1d6 x 100 for a sabot round which in my games is the only ammo a tank uses (barring those w/ energy weapons, but I increase them about the same too).

Yeah I was wrong about he APFSDS rounds but it can take hits from every other round it can fire and survive.

If you liek it be more real that is great. Myself I like the idea of being able to survive a single combat encounter. I am willing to bet your combat encounters result in player deaths relatively frequently if you in fact increase damages the way you do in order to kill tanks and robots in 1-2 hits on average. I couldn't enjoy that kind of game on a consistent basis.

Gods be cursed quote limit!!!!
Any hoo, I actually don't have a problem w/ frequent deaths in my games, as in it actually doesn't happen, my players are sneaky, conniving geniuses in the way they handle their characters and tho' they may get hit they (some how) get even better dice rolls in the face of danger (no cheating either).
It seems you've lost that wager, Sir!! I guess youse gotta pay up now. How many creds was that?

keir451 wrote:Gods be cursed quote limit!!!!
Any hoo, I actually don't have a problem w/ frequent deaths in my games, as in it actually doesn't happen, my players are sneaky, conniving geniuses in the way they handle their characters and tho' they may get hit they (some how) get even better dice rolls in the face of danger (no cheating either).
It seems you've lost that wager, Sir!! I guess youse gotta pay up now. How many creds was that?

Sounds like the survive by luck more than anything else.

If you take what you are saying about how you do damage, average rolls etc would lead to relatively frequent player deaths. The fact as you said they SOMEHOW survive is a luck related issue not a rules one

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:Gods be cursed quote limit!!!!
Any hoo, I actually don't have a problem w/ frequent deaths in my games, as in it actually doesn't happen, my players are sneaky, conniving geniuses in the way they handle their characters and tho' they may get hit they (some how) get even better dice rolls in the face of danger (no cheating either).
It seems you've lost that wager, Sir!! I guess youse gotta pay up now. How many creds was that?

Sounds like the survive by luck more than anything else.

If you take what you are saying about how you do damage, average rolls etc would lead to relatively frequent player deaths. The fact as you said they SOMEHOW survive is a luck related issue not a rules one

Luck is part of the game, but my guys are good at using tactics too, but only the tanks get that increase as that is how I veiw the tanks in Rifts. Also they don't encounter/use tanks that often.

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:Gods be cursed quote limit!!!!
Any hoo, I actually don't have a problem w/ frequent deaths in my games, as in it actually doesn't happen, my players are sneaky, conniving geniuses in the way they handle their characters and tho' they may get hit they (some how) get even better dice rolls in the face of danger (no cheating either).
It seems you've lost that wager, Sir!! I guess youse gotta pay up now. How many creds was that?

Sounds like the survive by luck more than anything else.

If you take what you are saying about how you do damage, average rolls etc would lead to relatively frequent player deaths. The fact as you said they SOMEHOW survive is a luck related issue not a rules one

Luck is part of the game, but my guys are good at using tactics too, but only the tanks get that increase as that is how I veiw the tanks in Rifts. Also they don't encounter/use tanks that often.

Well aside from that you and I are already know we are of differeing opnions on the combat system as it is so...

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:Gods be cursed quote limit!!!!
Any hoo, I actually don't have a problem w/ frequent deaths in my games, as in it actually doesn't happen, my players are sneaky, conniving geniuses in the way they handle their characters and tho' they may get hit they (some how) get even better dice rolls in the face of danger (no cheating either).
It seems you've lost that wager, Sir!! I guess youse gotta pay up now. How many creds was that?

Sounds like the survive by luck more than anything else.

If you take what you are saying about how you do damage, average rolls etc would lead to relatively frequent player deaths. The fact as you said they SOMEHOW survive is a luck related issue not a rules one

Luck is part of the game, but my guys are good at using tactics too, but only the tanks get that increase as that is how I veiw the tanks in Rifts. Also they don't encounter/use tanks that often.

Well aside from that you and I are already know we are of differeing opnions on the combat system as it is so...

Yup, Yup and I respect and apreciate those differences as they help me to further refine my game.