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Mechanurgist wrote:Perhaps I misunderstood Atomic Ray's post but he said the store owner refunded him, so where's the misfortune? I assume the store owner will deliver the books to you later at no delivery cost because of the screwup, right? Seems you're ahead, not behind.

>talk about violating one of the fundamental rules of the game; immunity to psychic atack if inside a Robot or PA

I'm curious, could you tell me where this rule is stated? Thanks.

IIUC, not so much refund as refund the difference between the price he paid and the price of what he actually got, since that's crap he doesn't want in the first place... misfortune it is.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:plus there's good old-fashioned GM rail-roading. "The villain is in Madhaven so that's where you're going. Have fun with that, suckers!!"

hahaha. Yeah. Thats going to suck.

Mechanurgist wrote:Perhaps I misunderstood Atomic Ray's post but he said the store owner refunded him, so where's the misfortune? I assume the store owner will deliver the books to you later at no delivery cost because of the screwup, right? Seems you're ahead, not behind.

>talk about violating one of the fundamental rules of the game; immunity to psychic atack if inside a Robot or PA

I'm curious, could you tell me where this rule is stated? Thanks.

Certainly, p.366 of the RUE, bottom left side of the page; "#2) Psionics that affect the mind and emotions can affect people inside a locked room or car. ...They cannot affect someone in a fast moving vehicle, because they are going too fast to make a connection...Nor can it affect someone in a sealed, enviromental M.D.C. vehicle like a tank, APC, giant robot or heavy power armor (250 M.D.C. or more for the main body)."
So by that rule if I'm inside a SAMAS or a Hellraiser or GB and I'm in Madhaven then I should be immunne to the psychic emanations, but the Madhaven book disallows that defense/immunity.
I prefer not to rail-road my players, it takes away from the fun of the game. If you tried to rail-road me I tell you (in character) to eff off and die and go the other direction. DM: "Hey, Bad Guy X just ran into Madhaven, let's go get him!" My PC's response: "Well he's dead. Anyone for a trip to the Wildcat Saloon? I hear Wildcat herself is 'performing' tonight and I've got enought credits that I won't be out bid for her 'favors' tonight!"
If the villain was stupid enoughto go into Madhaven I'll just sit back and wait until he comes out or until sufficient time has passed that he's most likely gone insane and died (about a week to a month depending on wether or not he has a strong M.E. and other factors).
Treasures of a lost Golden Age, hmmm, lesse, Denver (no psychic scar there), Detroit (same deal), Boston, New London, New Haven, Los Angeles, SanDiego, SanFransisco, basically ANY major (and even minor) city in the US/Canada will work.
The scientist part I'll grant you but MY scientist/ scholar ain't THAT crazy/stupid, that's where I use that scientific genius to develop a different way of studying the effect. Namely one that doesn't drive me literally insane or get me auto killed.

Thanks. I hadn't noticed that rule at all before. That makes PA/Robots pretty darn powerful.

>about a week to a month depending on wether or not he has a strong M.E. and other factors

Isn't that kind of metagaming though? How would your character know all this info without ever having been to Madhaven before? Plus, for all you know the villain has a psionic nullifier shield device in his underpants.

Mechanurgist wrote:Thanks. I hadn't noticed that rule at all before. That makes PA/Robots pretty darn powerful.

>about a week to a month depending on wether or not he has a strong M.E. and other factors

Isn't that kind of metagaming though? How would your character know all this info without ever having been to Madhaven before? Plus, for all you know the villain has a psionic nullifier shield device in his underpants.

Got me there! All true and dependant upon my chara. knowing that going into Madhaven will drive him insane, but if he's psychic in any way he's going to feel the effects pretty soon and probably not want to stay. There's also the fact that I can come up w/good reasons not to do things that will get me auto killed, comes w/ being devious and sneaky.
I'd say that the rule I quoted is more of a balancer. Imagine if a Mind Melter could take over the crew of a Hell raiser or the pilot of a GB? Now that would be powerful!

Atomic Ray wrote:The more I hear about Madhaven he more I think I might like that sort of zone at every point where lots of people died at once...although I would reconsider the no defense issue.

The ultra high MDC shielded equipment could act as a temporary barrier...but as characters these items are fairly rare in games I run...but a serious vehicle that the characters use as a mobile station, that makes good sense...layers of shields.

This Madhaven affect...it may be a way to measure a defense against the RIFT monsters/demons/etc.

I have a feeling that my preferred games are a bit more gritty and less wiz-bang than most would like...I do believe in rewards though...keeping with a theme, character behavior, and such carries over to the next character.

But the godlings, elder dragon, and such...not so much

*****

I also do not load up the badguys...the characters are better than 99% of the population, as they should be...

*****

Madhaven sounds like it may have put the restrictor plates on the power curve...are the rewards of what is hidden there worth the risk?

I tend to run PA pilots alot, I've never felt that the magic system was enough for me. I like to have psions running around inPA since even a Miind Melter is a little under powered in IMO. As for the rewards of entering Madhaven that's up to you, I don't know which Rifters the "rewards" were posted in so I don't know what they might be.

As a GM I sent to CS players into there. They were told they had 48 hours to complete their mission sense technically the CS isn't allowed to go in, so it was a black ops mission. If they didn't make it back in 48 hours they had to be declared persona non grata due to the potential for corruption. They were on the hunt for members of a gang of arms dealers who were gonna use madhaven as a place to sell CS gear 'cause they knew the CS wouldn't go into there. It was a SAMAS pilot on a rocket bike and a headhunter merc. They completed the mission and got back in time, though due to the rocket bike.

A funny moment though when the RPA guy used the bike to ram a ley line walker who was flying and rip her in half. This ley line walker-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26721750@N06/4312469763/

The arms dealers were the D-Bee faction of the gang led by a very insane Brodkil w/ MOM implants and extra bionic chainsaw arms. They were selling to a black faerie that was part of a former Tolkeen monster unit on the run-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26721750@N ... otostream/

That adventure went well for the players though they had to fight very hard. Cleverly though the players hugged the coast line as the meeting was at coney island and they sensibly laid traps for the Brodkil and killed the black faerie before the Brodkil and its flunkies arrived. Unknown to the players however was that the gang knew the CS was coming and set up the Brodkil to take the fall while other members remained invisible in a TW modified hovercar. The players managed to keep them from selling CS goods by destroying their stash.

Sadly though they avoided a lot of my neat madhaven encounters, like a tectonic entity screwing with them by rolling a manhole cover along side of them, and a beautiful ghost that was a model who died in the middle of photo shoot in a subway tunnel in front of intact poster ads of her and a sleazy ghost agent of hers. They could have found video cameras of intact footage of the rifts coming with the bodies inside a subway booth. Not to mention the value of the posters.

Another time, as soon as I can start playing rifts again I'm focusing on madhaven and shemarrian nation.

Bood Samel wrote:As a GM I sent to CS players into there. They were told they had 48 hours to complete their mission sense technically the CS isn't allowed to go in, so it was a black ops mission. If they didn't make it back in 48 hours they had to be declared persona non grata due to the potential for corruption. They were on the hunt for members of a gang of arms dealers who were gonna use madhaven as a place to sell CS gear 'cause they knew the CS wouldn't go into there. It was a SAMAS pilot on a rocket bike and a headhunter merc. They completed the mission and got back in time, though due to the rocket bike.

A funny moment though when the RPA guy used the bike to ram a ley line walker who was flying and rip her in half. This ley line walker-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26721750@N06/4312469763/

The arms dealers were the D-Bee faction of the gang led by a very insane Brodkil w/ MOM implants and extra bionic chainsaw arms. They were selling to a black faerie that was part of a former Tolkeen monster unit on the run-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26721750@N ... otostream/

That adventure went well for the players though they had to fight very hard. Cleverly though the players hugged the coast line as the meeting was at coney island and they sensibly laid traps for the Brodkil and killed the black faerie before the Brodkil and its flunkies arrived. Unknown to the players however was that the gang knew the CS was coming and set up the Brodkil to take the fall while other members remained invisible in a TW modified hovercar. The players managed to keep them from selling CS goods by destroying their stash.

Sadly though they avoided a lot of my neat madhaven encounters, like a tectonic entity screwing with them by rolling a manhole cover along side of them, and a beautiful ghost that was a model who died in the middle of photo shoot in a subway tunnel in front of intact poster ads of her and a sleazy ghost agent of hers. They could have found video cameras of intact footage of the rifts coming with the bodies inside a subway booth. Not to mention the value of the posters.

Another time, as soon as I can start playing rifts again I'm focusing on madhaven and shemarrian nation.

Sounds like a fun adventure indeed!

keir451 wrote:If the villain was stupid enoughto go into Madhaven I'll just sit back and wait until he comes out or until sufficient time has passed that he's most likely gone insane and died (about a week to a month depending on wether or not he has a strong M.E. and other factors).

well, naturally this depends on your villains. There may or may not be anything canon that can avoid the craziness of Madhaven, but certainly any mildly creative G.M. can come up with something. There could be powerful undead creatures in subterranean tunnels or a demon lord just chillin in a tower of bones in a valley of ruined skyscrapers. They orchestrate events outside of madhaven through minions or magic. They think they're safe in the city.

Treasures of a lost Golden Age, hmmm, lesse, Denver (no psychic scar there), Detroit (same deal), Boston, New London, New Haven, Los Angeles, SanDiego, SanFransisco, basically ANY major (and even minor) city in the US/Canada will work.

i'm actually glad you brought this up. This is a huge reason why the trip into Madhaven to snag the treasure there is so important. People have had 300 years to scavenge all the major cities. After that long, even the really bad ones, like Detroit and Dallas, have been looted out for years. All the good **** is long gone. But because so few people have historically been successful digging in Madhaven, there is still much to find. There's a few treasures buried under the rubble that can set a character for life, even an adventurer. You can start small armies with some of the stuff you can get.

The scientist part I'll grant you but MY scientist/ scholar ain't THAT crazy/stupid, that's where I use that scientific genius to develop a different way of studying the effect. Namely one that doesn't drive me literally insane or get me auto killed.

You don't think it would be awesome to be the guy who figures it out and "beats" Madhaven? Published in all the reputable journals, maybe a book deal? Play it right, you could be a rich celebrity. In Rifts. Which would be sweet.

As for the rewards of entering Madhaven that's up to you, I don't know which Rifters the "rewards" were posted in so I don't know what they might be.

Rifter #36. It would be worth it to you to take a look. I think you would get more out of the setting.

@RoadWarrioeFWank; According to the Madhaven book itself only Psi-Nullifiers and Nega Psychics are totally immune to the effects of Madhaven, but, Yes, you could "GM it" and say that there are other things powerful enough to make it work. I will look up Rifter # 36 and see what it's got. Thanks for the info. I also agree that the info in question should never have been cut from the book.

keir451 wrote: I will look up Rifter # 36 and see what it's got. Thanks for the info. I also agree that the info in question should never have been cut from the book.

Citizen Lazlo wrote:That NEVER should have been cut from the book.

for what it's worth, i agree. Madhaven isn't really complete without a detailed reward system. But at this point, the best I can do is point the way to Rifter 36.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

keir451 wrote: I will look up Rifter # 36 and see what it's got. Thanks for the info. I also agree that the info in question should never have been cut from the book.

Citizen Lazlo wrote:That NEVER should have been cut from the book.

for what it's worth, i agree. Madhaven isn't really complete without a detailed reward system. But at this point, the best I can do is point the way to Rifter 36.

Ditto

We don't have returning antagonists, if we didn't kill then outright from the start we weren't doing our jobs. The recurring villian theme just tends to annoy the daylights out of me so even if I'm playing in someone elses game I make sure the villain is DEAD.
Besides it's unlikely that any real villain can come out of Madhaven as they'd be so utterly insane as to be non functional, essentially mindless drooling idiots, not evil, dangerous beings of power and might.
"Awww, look at the widdle evil mage from Madhaven, would you like your apple sauce now, dearie? (as he drools onto the front of his shirt) Don't forget to take your medicine."

When I proposed the hypothetical situation of a GM railroading players going into Madhaven; Gm, "The villian just went into Madhaven, so that's where you're going!" My Gm's favourite chara Andrea Martin, NG Special Forces " She begins writing on a piece of paper", after 5 min. turns paper over to Gm.
Gm: What's this?
Andrea (Andy): Cost/ benefit analysis. After calculating equipment needed (hideous list), reapairs to said equipment, medical costs, resupply costs our profit is 110,000 credits. Inadequate, 4 billion or I walk.
Gm: Gm looks at the list, including Andy's equipment this represents 90% of the the groups firepower.
Realizing that any adventure into Madhaven will fail w/out sufficient firepower (seriously humanoid mutants w/1,100 MDc how does that make sense) any mission is destined to fail. Since $4 billion is out of the question, begins considereing offering treasure, realizes HOW much treasure it would take to sate Andrea Martins appetite realizes railroad attempt FAILED.

keir451 wrote:We don't have returning antagonists, if we didn't kill then outright from the start we weren't doing our jobs. The recurring villian theme just tends to annoy the daylights out of me so even if I'm playing in someone elses game I make sure the villain is DEAD.
Besides it's unlikely that any real villain can come out of Madhaven as they'd be so utterly insane as to be non functional, essentially mindless drooling idiots, not evil, dangerous beings of power and might.
"Awww, look at the widdle evil mage from Madhaven, would you like your apple sauce now, dearie? (as he drools onto the front of his shirt) Don't forget to take your medicine."

A villian could operate on the edge of madhaven like the hourune or splugorth. If you lived along the coast in a hidden bunker and used a flying vehical to get back and forth you'd be pretty secure if all anyone knew is that you lived in madhaven.

Bood Samel wrote:

keir451 wrote:We don't have returning antagonists, if we didn't kill then outright from the start we weren't doing our jobs. The recurring villian theme just tends to annoy the daylights out of me so even if I'm playing in someone elses game I make sure the villain is DEAD.
Besides it's unlikely that any real villain can come out of Madhaven as they'd be so utterly insane as to be non functional, essentially mindless drooling idiots, not evil, dangerous beings of power and might.
"Awww, look at the widdle evil mage from Madhaven, would you like your apple sauce now, dearie? (as he drools onto the front of his shirt) Don't forget to take your medicine."

A villian could operate on the edge of madhaven like the hourune or splugorth. If you lived along the coast in a hidden bunker and used a flying vehical to get back and forth you'd be pretty secure if all anyone knew is that you lived in madhaven.

I can't say you're wrong, mainly because the writer didn't give us a range (at least I couldn't immediately find one) for the Madhaven effect so I guess it is possible for a villain to do that. But my stock response is this:
Gm (me), "The villian just went into Madhaven, so that's where you're going!"
My Gm's favourite chara Andrea Martin, NG Special Forces " She begins writing on a piece of paper", after 5 min. turns paper over to Gm.
Gm: What's this?
Andrea (Andy): Cost/ benefit analysis. After calculating equipment needed (hideous list), reapairs to said equipment, medical costs, resupply costs, etc. our profit is 110,000 credits. Inadequate, 4 billion or I walk.
Gm: Gm looks at the list, including Andy's equipment this represents 90% of the the groups firepower.
Realizing that any adventure into Madhaven will fail w/out sufficient firepower (seriously, humanoid mutants w/1,100 MDc how does that make sense) any mission is destined to fail. Since $4 billion is out of the question, begins considereing offering treasure, realizes HOW much treasure it would take to sate Andrea Martin's appetite, realizes railroad attempt FAILED.

I love Madhaven. One of my favorite RPG books.

You have to remember that the GM controls the rate of insanity. Nowhere does it say that your character goes from Fine to Nutzo overnight. You as GM have full control over their descent into madness...and their recovery...and whatever permanent effects may occur.

Of course, low ME characters and some OCCs are going to descend faster than others. Thus, there is a time element on your adventuring. This is great for storytelling.

As the GM, take command of Madhaven and set the Insanity Dials however YOU want them to work in your game.

I'm also a huge fan of Bradshaw's art.

Spinachcat wrote:I love Madhaven. One of my favorite RPG books.

You have to remember that the GM controls the rate of insanity. Nowhere does it say that your character goes from Fine to Nutzo overnight. You as GM have full control over their descent into madness...and their recovery...and whatever permanent effects may occur.

Of course, low ME characters and some OCCs are going to descend faster than others. Thus, there is a time element on your adventuring. This is great for storytelling.

As the GM, take command of Madhaven and set the Insanity Dials however YOU want them to work in your game.

I'm also a huge fan of Bradshaw's art.

Actually the players roll controls how fast they go insane, but nonetheless if you stay in Madhavenn too long you WILL go insane and quite probably die.

Spinachcat wrote:As the GM, take command of Madhaven and set the Insanity Dials however YOU want them to work in your game.

this guy gets it

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

Spinachcat wrote:As the GM, take command of Madhaven and set the Insanity Dials however YOU want them to work in your game.

this guy gets it

Yeah I got it too, the problem was I shouldn't have had to in the first place.
You want to make Madhaven unique, exciting, dangerous? Sure I get that, but to make so that only two character classes OUT OF THE ENTIRE GAME are immune to the effects? I call serious shenanigans. That is not just railroading it's effectively game rape.

Atomic Ray wrote:

keir451 wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

Spinachcat wrote:As the GM, take command of Madhaven and set the Insanity Dials however YOU want them to work in your game.

this guy gets it

Yeah I got it too, the problem was I shouldn't have had to in the first place.
You want to make Madhaven unique, exciting, dangerous? Sure I get that, but to make so that only two character classes OUT OF THE ENTIRE GAME are immune to the effects? I call serious shenanigans. That is not just railroading it's effectively game rape.

So, you did not like the book I take it

I can glean a certain amount of what is what even from just viewing the posts here. Madhaven sounds like a powerful place that wipes away the normal buffer of security that exists for most powerful player characters...I could see why this might torque you. Build up this character and if you go to this one place then there is a very good chance that said character will go insane and die within short order and if you get in a fight chances are you will not be able to defend yourself or hurt the enemy. That does sound dire.

Just from what I have seen on the board here it seems that measure of restraint could be taken to balance to sure insanity into a chance of insanity...especially with the psi issue...don't use psi and your chances are reduced dramatically, perhaps.

Now if that were the case and yet still you as a player were fearful of going there, well...good. Then the situation fits the bill...creates fear, which is something in a RPG.

But as for your thought/comment about only two character types are immune, I take issue with the word immune. For me, with a level head and a love for balance would tell you that no character is immune to the world...perhaps one or two elements, fire for example...but the fire immunity does nothing against bullets or blades.

Now I am sure you did not mean it in that total sort of a matter, just in context that the average character should have a chance to resist the insanity; I agree...but immunity; I disagree completely.

The place was designed to be a nightmare pit...a piece of hell from the sound of it...no one, not even gods, walk into hell with a smile and giving the finger to everything around him...no one is immune to hell.

If your character is immune then where is the fun in that? But again I am sure you do not condone immune characters, that would be like playing a first person shooter in god mode and only 10yr olds do that

I still want a copy and I am hoping for the best.

Thanks for everyone's input on the subject.

I really wanted more from the book, I wanted more basic vehicles, like the ones on the cover. The way they set it up you NEED to have an insanely high M.E. to effectively make it in Madhaven, lack of psionics actually makes you even more vulnerable and even those in power armor having no protection is a bit unbalancing to me.
All that aside I agree w/ what you said and I hope you do find Madhaven enjoyable once you get it.

In Rifts there is no game balance. If anything Madhaven is the most balanced thing inthe game since it is mostly an equal opportunity mind eff.

The Galactus Kid wrote:In Rifts there is no game balance. If anything Madhaven is the most balanced thing inthe game since it is mostly an equal opportunity mind eff.

Madhaven: An Equal Opportunity Employer.
..and sure as hell doesn't cover medical or mental expenses.

The Galactus Kid wrote:In Rifts there is no game balance. If anything Madhaven is the most balanced thing inthe game since it is mostly an equal opportunity mind eff.

Thats what great about the book. Your city rat and your cosmo knight stand the same chance. You have to genuinely think your way through the place, plus its very distinct and unique environment. I'd recommend reading the mole people book to capture the vibe of the mutants and their culture-
http://www.amazon.com/Mole-People-Life- ... 155652241X

Bood Samel wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:In Rifts there is no game balance. If anything Madhaven is the most balanced thing inthe game since it is mostly an equal opportunity mind eff.

Thats what great about the book. Your city rat and your cosmo knight stand the same chance. You have to genuinely think your way through the place, plus its very distinct and unique environment. I'd recommend reading the mole people book to capture the vibe of the mutants and their culture-
http://www.amazon.com/Mole-People-Life- ... 155652241X

Your City Rat and Cosmo Knight may have the same chance but a Nega-psychic or a Psi-nullifier and the Madhaven mutants get off scott free, that's not the same chance at all.

keir451 wrote:

Bood Samel wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:In Rifts there is no game balance. If anything Madhaven is the most balanced thing inthe game since it is mostly an equal opportunity mind eff.

Thats what great about the book. Your city rat and your cosmo knight stand the same chance. You have to genuinely think your way through the place, plus its very distinct and unique environment. I'd recommend reading the mole people book to capture the vibe of the mutants and their culture-
http://www.amazon.com/Mole-People-Life- ... 155652241X

Your City Rat and Cosmo Knight may have the same chance but a Nega-psychic or a Psi-nullifier and the Madhaven mutants get off scott free, that's not the same chance at all.

I said "mostly". Not to mention, your Nega-Psychic and Psi-nullifier are only ok until the ghosts and mutants get to them.

The Galactus Kid wrote:

keir451 wrote:

Bood Samel wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:In Rifts there is no game balance. If anything Madhaven is the most balanced thing inthe game since it is mostly an equal opportunity mind eff.

Thats what great about the book. Your city rat and your cosmo knight stand the same chance. You have to genuinely think your way through the place, plus its very distinct and unique environment. I'd recommend reading the mole people book to capture the vibe of the mutants and their culture-
http://www.amazon.com/Mole-People-Life- ... 155652241X

Your City Rat and Cosmo Knight may have the same chance but a Nega-psychic or a Psi-nullifier and the Madhaven mutants get off scott free, that's not the same chance at all.

I said "mostly". Not to mention, your Nega-Psychic and Psi-nullifier are only ok until the ghosts and mutants get to them.

Did you ever read that mole people book before?

keir451 wrote:I really wanted more from the book, I wanted more basic vehicles, like the ones on the cover. The way they set it up you NEED to have an insanely high M.E. to effectively make it in Madhaven, lack of psionics actually makes you even more vulnerable and even those in power armor having no protection is a bit unbalancing to me.
All that aside I agree w/ what you said and I hope you do find Madhaven enjoyable once you get it.

Note the speed of many vehicles in rifts, especially hover/flying ones. Consider the size of madhaven. Big, yes but you can easily go to and from "madhaven" in less than 10 minutes while flying.

You don't actually have to 'stay' in madhaven to have adventure there.

It's more akin to a dungeon crawl that requires you to leave before the night is out.

Through GM intervention the main badguy has a way to protect himself from the psychic imprint. Well, the adventurers may take many days trying to find his hide out, and when the sun is going down, they have to pack up and leave and start again in the morning. How is this done? Is there a camp outside they keep? If so, who's watching it? How are they maping the area? How will they find their way back. This works with a scavenging game as well. They stay in an area, scavenge it for one or two nights, then leave and come back. From what I've gleaned from reading it, even a day or two of scavenging should make the trip somewhat profitable.

CS stayes out of it, but really they are best prepared to really scavenge it. Skelebots are "immune" to the imprint and are crud in combat, but They are decently strong, can cut through materials (Vibro blades), immune to the psychic imprint, have decent MDC, CS probably knows madhaven(new york) better than anyone on rifts earth (so they know where to dig) and are going to be immune to a lot of ghost abilities. Down side is that they are not immune to mutants and just raw ghost abilities.

Madhaven to me falls under the "adventure book" line for me. I think most games may find it really only useful to really play a limited campaign in it or the players may go to it once or twice (Unless your in the order). This is a good place to start a campaign. Players sign up to do a bit of scavenging and meet. Through a few quick adventures, the players can start with decent money/equipment have been through hell to build team bonding.

dark brandon wrote:

keir451 wrote:I really wanted more from the book, I wanted more basic vehicles, like the ones on the cover. The way they set it up you NEED to have an insanely high M.E. to effectively make it in Madhaven, lack of psionics actually makes you even more vulnerable and even those in power armor having no protection is a bit unbalancing to me.
All that aside I agree w/ what you said and I hope you do find Madhaven enjoyable once you get it.

Note the speed of many vehicles in rifts, especially hover/flying ones. Consider the size of madhaven. Big, yes but you can easily go to and from "madhaven" in less than 10 minutes while flying.

You don't actually have to 'stay' in madhaven to have adventure there.

It's more akin to a dungeon crawl that requires you to leave before the night is out.

Through GM intervention the main badguy has a way to protect himself from the psychic imprint. Well, the adventurers may take many days trying to find his hide out, and when the sun is going down, they have to pack up and leave and start again in the morning. How is this done? Is there a camp outside they keep? If so, who's watching it? How are they maping the area? How will they find their way back. This works with a scavenging game as well. They stay in an area, scavenge it for one or two nights, then leave and come back. From what I've gleaned from reading it, even a day or two of scavenging should make the trip somewhat profitable.

CS stayes out of it, but really they are best prepared to really scavenge it. Skelebots are "immune" to the imprint and are crud in combat, but They are decently strong, can cut through materials (Vibro blades), immune to the psychic imprint, have decent MDC, CS probably knows madhaven(new york) better than anyone on rifts earth (so they know where to dig) and are going to be immune to a lot of ghost abilities. Down side is that they are not immune to mutants and just raw ghost abilities.

Madhaven to me falls under the "adventure book" line for me. I think most games may find it really only useful to really play a limited campaign in it or the players may go to it once or twice (Unless your in the order). This is a good place to start a campaign. Players sign up to do a bit of scavenging and meet. Through a few quick adventures, the players can start with decent money/equipment have been through hell to build team bonding.

Y'know I fell totally stupid for not thinking of those things myself, tho' I slightly disagree on one subject; Skelebots being crud in combat, they're not great I'll grant you but they're better than nothing (I'd use NG albor 'bots instead). I will keep those very pertinant facts well in mind Sir Dark Brandon. (Oh Sh*t you've just been Sir'd ).

Atomic Ray wrote:If your character is immune then where is the fun in that? But again I am sure you do not condone immune characters, that would be like playing a first person shooter in god mode and only 10yr olds do that

I do this on teh RARE occassion I play a game but that is because I have no interest in playing the game itself and just want o blow **** up.

jaymz wrote:

Atomic Ray wrote:If your character is immune then where is the fun in that? But again I am sure you do not condone immune characters, that would be like playing a first person shooter in god mode and only 10yr olds do that

I do this on teh RARE occassion I play a game but that is because I have no interest in playing the game itself and just want o blow **** up.

I can agree w/all the above statements! The problem I have is that Madhaven feels like I'm playing against a bratty 10yr old who is using all the cheat codes just because and needs to be spanked. Tho' the most estimable Dark Brandon did just show me SOME of the error of my thoughts.

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Atomic Ray wrote:If your character is immune then where is the fun in that? But again I am sure you do not condone immune characters, that would be like playing a first person shooter in god mode and only 10yr olds do that

I do this on teh RARE occassion I play a game but that is because I have no interest in playing the game itself and just want o blow **** up.

I can agree w/all the above statements! The problem I have is that Madhaven feels like I'm playing against a bratty 10yr old who is using all the cheat codes just because and needs to be spanked. Tho' the most estimable Dark Brandon did just show me SOME of the error of my thoughts.

TO me Madhaven = Excellent read, excellent place to adventure adn excursion to but not a place for a campaign.

keir451 wrote: Y'know I fell totally stupid for not thinking of those things myself, tho' I slightly disagree on one subject; Skelebots being crud in combat, they're not great I'll grant you but they're better than nothing (I'd use NG albor 'bots instead). I will keep those very pertinant facts well in mind Sir Dark Brandon. (Oh Sh*t you've just been Sir'd ).

That's probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on the internet, and I have 2 good friends who frequent these boards. You, good sir, have made be believe in the internet again!

dark brandon wrote:

keir451 wrote: Y'know I fell totally stupid for not thinking of those things myself, tho' I slightly disagree on one subject; Skelebots being crud in combat, they're not great I'll grant you but they're better than nothing (I'd use NG albor 'bots instead). I will keep those very pertinant facts well in mind Sir Dark Brandon. (Oh Sh*t you've just been Sir'd ).

That's probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on the internet, and I have 2 good friends who frequent these boards. You, good sir, have made be believe in the internet again!

I'm sorry I didn't mean to ruin your universe that way. (Damn, I've been Sir'd in return!!) Don't "Sir!" me, I work for a living!!

dark brandon wrote:

keir451 wrote: Y'know I fell totally stupid for not thinking of those things myself, tho' I slightly disagree on one subject; Skelebots being crud in combat, they're not great I'll grant you but they're better than nothing (I'd use NG albor 'bots instead). I will keep those very pertinant facts well in mind Sir Dark Brandon. (Oh Sh*t you've just been Sir'd ).

That's probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on the internet, and I have 2 good friends who frequent these boards. You, good sir, have made be believe in the internet again!

I hate your face.

The Galactus Kid wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

keir451 wrote: Y'know I fell totally stupid for not thinking of those things myself, tho' I slightly disagree on one subject; Skelebots being crud in combat, they're not great I'll grant you but they're better than nothing (I'd use NG albor 'bots instead). I will keep those very pertinant facts well in mind Sir Dark Brandon. (Oh Sh*t you've just been Sir'd ).

That's probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on the internet, and I have 2 good friends who frequent these boards. You, good sir, have made be believe in the internet again!

I hate your face.

x2

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

keir451 wrote: Y'know I fell totally stupid for not thinking of those things myself, tho' I slightly disagree on one subject; Skelebots being crud in combat, they're not great I'll grant you but they're better than nothing (I'd use NG albor 'bots instead). I will keep those very pertinant facts well in mind Sir Dark Brandon. (Oh Sh*t you've just been Sir'd ).

That's probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on the internet, and I have 2 good friends who frequent these boards. You, good sir, have made be believe in the internet again!

I hate your face.

x2

oh, look. It's the fail duo.

Ale Golem wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Ale Golem wrote:The book is great, a lot of good crunch and some fun fluff as well. The art on the other hand...well we won't talk about the art.

Most of it is done by nick Bradshaw...

And therein lies the problem, I've never liked Bradshaw's style. It actually ruined Dead Reign for me.

Go pound sand

dark brandon wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

keir451 wrote: Y'know I fell totally stupid for not thinking of those things myself, tho' I slightly disagree on one subject; Skelebots being crud in combat, they're not great I'll grant you but they're better than nothing (I'd use NG albor 'bots instead). I will keep those very pertinant facts well in mind Sir Dark Brandon. (Oh Sh*t you've just been Sir'd ).

That's probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on the internet, and I have 2 good friends who frequent these boards. You, good sir, have made be believe in the internet again!

I hate your face.

x2

oh, look. It's the fail duo.

more like the winner duo. also our books are written in tiger blood.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

dark brandon wrote:That's probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on the internet, and I have 2 good friends who frequent these boards. You, good sir, have made be believe in the internet again!

I hate your face.

x2

oh, look. It's the fail duo.

more like the winner duo. also our books are written in tiger blood.

really?

*lays PETA traps around authors*

"Protect our writers from angry environmentalists! battle stations everyone!"