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Dairugger XV wrote:I'd rather they had used Air Force terminology on the whole here. Vermillion would be "Vermillion Flight." This would be a proper term for a sub-unit of Skull Squadron.

In this specific case, the use of pure Air Force terminology really wouldn't capture the distinctly Japanese force organization at work here... or the fact that these units are as much armored cavalry as they are a fighter squadron. The actual term used in Japanese is Shōtai (小隊), which denotes a formation one level below a Flight, organizationally. Its NATO equivalent term would ordinarily be "Section", though the USAF isn't in the habit of having fighter sections the way Japan, Germany, and Russia, and the United Kingdom variously have been (the specific terms being Shōtai, Rotte, Zveno, and Section, respectively). "Platoon" is the favored translation used in official material, probably because a VF functions as both a bipedal tank and a fighter aircraft. (The term in Japanese used to denote "Squadron" is the same word also used with Infantry and Armored Cavalry to denote "Battalion", a VF squadron is effectively a "Flight Battalion".)

(If they used purely Air Force terminology it'd probably confuse people as well... being that there's also a UN Spacy Air Force in Macross, which consists of the non-fleet system defense assets.)

Dairugger XV wrote:It'd confuse the Macross fans. But Robotech isn't just Macross with another name on it, as much as a lot of people would have love it to be otherwise.

Not the least of which being Harmony Gold...

(But really, the truth is that Robotech basically IS a bad attempt to extent Macross that didn't change things all that much initially. It isn't until episode 37 or so that things really go snooker-loopy.)

Dairugger XV wrote:Therefore there is no reason, in ROBOTECH, to adhere to all of the Macross OSM and maintain the Japanese flavoring. [...]

Considering we're talking about what's in the SHOW, there's no reason NOT to... because the first, and most important, part was Macross and the other two are quite literally failed Macross knockoffs. That "Japanese flavor" is present in all three to varying degrees... so why not take the route that makes the most sense and use what's already there? That certainly seems to be Harmony Gold's plan... and it's not like they're making original material here. It certainly doesn't hurt that all three original shows used much the same Army-esque organization for their transforming fighters...

Using real-world terms that don't actually fit what's on screen, or inventing all new terms that would've needed in-series explaining would have been a spectacularly bad idea. Just look at all the existing issues caused by the writers using words they didn't understand.

Dairugger XV wrote:EDIT: To also make sure my position is absolutely clear: I am stating that Robotech, as a functionally seperate entity from Macross, should have used it FROM THE START. It's kinda pointless to change over now, but at least it would have carried over some of the concept trying to be described.

But Robotech was not conceived as a "functionally separate entity from Macross". It was a vehicle to get Macross on American broadcast television, nothing more. It was a hasty adaptation, slapped together after they'd already started dubbing Macross. All but one of its failed sequels is a shameless attempt to rip off Macross at that...

Dairugger XV wrote:The problem is that they instant they were making that adaptation to include other shows, which had to happen early on, it DID become a functionally seperate entity and to pretend otherwise was, to put bluntly, moronic.

Yet the changes were kept relatively minor, as they'd already dubbed several complete episodes of the original Macross at the time, so even though it's a different entity on paper there's no way for its "creators" to get around many of the visual details of organization and the like. That's why so much of Robotech's info is shamelessly copy-pasted from the OSM: It's the only answer that made sense.

Dairugger XV wrote:They should have realized that what they had was no longer pure Macross and be willing to translate concepts into the closest analogues that their intended audience might be familiar with.

They DID realize that what they had was no longer "pure Macross", but that's immaterial... all three original shows use many of the same organizational visual and dialogue cues. Therefore, the effort which was actually necessary to put them into a common frame of reference the audience might be familiar with was minimal. They kept most of the army rank scheme, but changed the top few officer ranks to avoid a collision between the army rank of Captain and navy title of Captain. They kept the dialogue about unit organization, but they mistranslated the (somewhat esoteric) term shōtai to be "Squad", and then ended up confusing themselves on the difference between "squad" and "squadron".

Admittedly, as the intended audience for the Robotech adaptation was the K-6 crowd, most of 'em wouldn't be likely to recognize ANY of the levels of military organization... so the point there is moot. To anyone familiar with military organization, the way it's presented in Japanese makes perfect sense, since the concept of a section/flight platoon is not an alien one to many nations, and it happens to also be the same size as a tank platoon, minus the support vehicles.

EDIT: Harmony Gold hasn't exactly rushed to get away from the way the OSM does it either... they've kept right on imitating Macross and drawing on the Macross Saga of RT in the comics and RTSC.

for the RPG, i think i'll stick to using USAF force structures for most squadrons (USMC ones for for UEDF/UEEF marines), mainly because it will be easier for players to understand. alternate terminology for the parts however certainly could be used if a squadron is largely one nationality, to avoid issues of injecting new terms into an existing language/lexicon.

of course for non-UEG units, anything is fair game.

glitterboy2098 wrote:for the RPG, i think i'll stick to using USAF force structures for most squadrons (USMC ones for for UEDF/UEEF marines), mainly because it will be easier for players to understand.

That poses an interesting contradiction for me... in his enthusiasm to ape Macross, Tommy showed a backstory where Skull squad is a NAVY squadron. Specifically, they're the VF-84 Jolly Rogers with an alternate name.

Then again, I've never really had much difficulty running games with the exact terminology the OSM uses... thanks, I think, to Stargate inoculating many potential players with the correct notion that any space fleet is technically (Army) Air Force property.

well, the USAF and USN squadron set ups are pretty close and use most of the same terms. the difference is mostly in how they handle the logistical support side of things.. the navy and marines having integrated support staff in the squadron that moves when it moves, while the USAF has that base side and switching bases means switching support staff.

the marines get complicated because they use 'squadron' for a battalion level unit, which can include a mix of aircraft types.

glitterboy2098 wrote:well, the USAF and USN squadron set ups are pretty close and use most of the same terms. the difference is mostly in how they handle the logistical support side of things.. the navy and marines having integrated support staff in the squadron that moves when it moves, while the USAF has that base side and switching bases means switching support staff.

the marines get complicated because they use 'squadron' for a battalion level unit, which can include a mix of aircraft types.

After I started repairing the F-15E with the 90th FS, whenever our aircraft deployed so did we. The USAF does not switch support staff when switching bases. We send the maintenance and ops support along for the trip.

Terminator Squad:Created by a UEEF Nerd Boy who had the brainwave of an idea to create unmanned drone fighters by integrating left over Southern Cross Golems with Alpha and Beta fighters that had been cobbled together from the remains of destroyed Alphas and Betas.

Only four units had been created(2 Alpha terminators and 2 Beta terminators) before said UEEF Nerd Boy died in the single most horrific bio terrorist attack in the history of the UEEF after sampling an earth dish from the arctic.

Since it just came out the other day, here's the list of squadrons from the latest Variable Fighter Master File book...

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II

• SVF-9
• SVF-390 "Fire Dragons"
• SVF-510 "Blutgangs*"
• SVF-14 "Silver Stars"
• 727th Independent Special Command "Ravens"

* "Blutgang" was the name of the sword wielded by the Germanic legendary hero Heime.