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You still havn't established why a code is any different from normal language.

All a code is is a langugage only understood by a few.

Both codes and languages are menas of transmitting information and concepts, Yes? A code is use to transmit information secretly (p.239 Websters Collegiate Dictionary; code: definition 'b', a system of symbols (as letters or numbers) used to represent assigned and often secret meanings) while a language is (p.699 Webster Collegaite Dictionary, 1a:) "the words, their pronunciation, and methods of combining them [as] used and understood by a community".
So at the heart of it the principles are the same, to convey information. But a code is different way of conveying that information, by using different meanings or substituting numbers for letters or only using select letters from pre existing words you can form a code. In this instance we're using two languages, one the Navajo language, the second the english language. In the first language we select random words and speak them out loud, these words carry no real meaning on their own as words out of context have no rela meaning beyond their definitions (again, Sierra October Uniform Tango Hotel), but on the other end someone else takes those words and using the english equivalents seperates out certain letters (S O U T H) or numbers (1,2 ,3,4, etc.) thus making new information. Even if this were used in the presence of the Tongues spell all the mage gets is the meaning of the individual words not the meaning of the code becasue all he/she hears are the random words, he/she does not know what the cipher is (Cipher, p.224, Webster Collegiate Dictionary, 2a: a method of transforming text [or spoken words] in order to conceal its meaning).
So a mage using the Tongues spell can sit there and listen to coded speech all day long and hear essentially gobbledy gook as all he's hearing are random words with no real context without knowing the cipher he's S.O.L. Without a contextual reference words are meaningless. A code provides a contextual reference unknown that is unkown except to a few.

I think the fundamental difference is: How do you think the spell works?

The spell conveys the meaning in the words. The words themselves are meaningless, that's why it works with any language.

Ergo, the meaning is conveyed, regardless if you use normal words or words in a cipher.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think the fundamental difference is: How do you think the spell works?

The spell conveys the meaning in the words. The words themselves are meaningless, that's why it works with any language.

Ergo, the meaning is conveyed, regardless if you use normal words or words in a cipher.

You just said it yourself, "the words are meaningless", just becasue a person says a word doesn't mean anything, just because a mage using tongues hears a word doesn't mean he understands the context of the word only the definition.
words used out of context have no meaning outside their definitin, so all the mage is going to know is the definition of the word, not the context it's being used in. If say a string of random words what have i really said other than those words? Witout the context or cipher the words mean nothing in and of themselves.
The spell allows you to communicate freely between people w/ different languages, but does not grant you access to the persons innermost thoughts, just because the mage can perfectly understand the language doesn't mean he can't be lied to. The spell only grants you knowledge of the spoken language, not what the speaker is thinking, because the spell does not convey intent only language. So a person could obfuscate the same way we all do, by their choice of words and their phrasing. Thus by using random words w/out any true context surrounding them, the words can used as a code, the rest would be have to be defined by actions.
The spell is already clearly defined, "The spell enables the caster to perfectly undersatand and speak all spoken languages; 98% proficiency.", "Speak and understand", not decipher encrytions, not read a persons mind, not tell if they are lying or not. It only allows you to understand the spoken language. Since languages include words, you can understand individual words, but any word is useless w/out a context. So once again a code made of random words of one language that uses individaul letters or numbers of a nother language would be undecipherable by someone using the Tongues spell as all they understand are the defiinitions of the first languages words, not the intent of the speaker and not the other words made from a second language.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think the fundamental difference is: How do you think the spell works?

The spell conveys the meaning in the words. The words themselves are meaningless, that's why it works with any language.

Ergo, the meaning is conveyed, regardless if you use normal words or words in a cipher.

So I could say, literally, "Radah radahradah radah radahradahradah radah", and whatever meaning in my head I want the other person to get will be transmitted by the Tongues spell?

Sgt Anjay wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think the fundamental difference is: How do you think the spell works?

The spell conveys the meaning in the words. The words themselves are meaningless, that's why it works with any language.

Ergo, the meaning is conveyed, regardless if you use normal words or words in a cipher.

So I could say, literally, "Radah radahradah radah radahradahradah radah", and whatever meaning in my head I want the other person to get will be transmitted by the Tongues spell?

I would say no, because the spell does not allow the caster to read your mind, the spell only works on spoken languages making the speech around the caster understandable to him and vice versa, so all that mage is gonna get is "Radah radahradah etc." the meaning of it (if it means anything) is literally all in your head.
Or better yet what about Morse code? What if I have a character who turns to another and goes long, short, long? or three dots, three dashes, three dots? The spell according to the way it is written would translate it literally as "Dot, Dot, Dot, Dash, Dash, Dash, Dot, Dot, Dot" but Mr. Mage would be "huh???"? becasue there's no context for those words.

keir451 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think the fundamental difference is: How do you think the spell works?

The spell conveys the meaning in the words. The words themselves are meaningless, that's why it works with any language.

Ergo, the meaning is conveyed, regardless if you use normal words or words in a cipher.

You just said it yourself, "the words are meaningless", just becasue a person says a word doesn't mean anything, just because a mage using tongues hears a word doesn't mean he understands the context of the word only the definition.
words used out of context have no meaning outside their definitin, so all the mage is going to know is the definition of the word

I cut off here because this is the entire crux of our difference.

Words are meaningless. Therefore, the dictionary definitions are utterly irrelevant to understanding, because conveying the dictionary definition does not necessarly convey meaning. Therefore, the spell does NOT convey the dictionary meaning of a word, but the speakers meaning behind it.

Therefore, the spell does in fact convey the speakers innermost meanings.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think the fundamental difference is: How do you think the spell works?

The spell conveys the meaning in the words. The words themselves are meaningless, that's why it works with any language.

Ergo, the meaning is conveyed, regardless if you use normal words or words in a cipher.

You just said it yourself, "the words are meaningless", just becasue a person says a word doesn't mean anything, just because a mage using tongues hears a word doesn't mean he understands the context of the word only the definition.
words used out of context have no meaning outside their definitin, so all the mage is going to know is the definition of the word

I cut off here because this is the entire crux of our difference.

Words are meaningless. Therefore, the dictionary definitions are utterly irrelevant to understanding, because conveying the dictionary definition does not necessarly convey meaning. Therefore, the spell does NOT convey the dictionary meaning of a word, but the speakers meaning behind it.

Therefore, the spell does in fact convey the speakers innermost meanings.

So the spell whose stated purpose is to speak and understand languages has nothing to do with languages?

Sgt Anjay wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think the fundamental difference is: How do you think the spell works?

The spell conveys the meaning in the words. The words themselves are meaningless, that's why it works with any language.

Ergo, the meaning is conveyed, regardless if you use normal words or words in a cipher.

You just said it yourself, "the words are meaningless", just becasue a person says a word doesn't mean anything, just because a mage using tongues hears a word doesn't mean he understands the context of the word only the definition.
words used out of context have no meaning outside their definitin, so all the mage is going to know is the definition of the word

I cut off here because this is the entire crux of our difference.

Words are meaningless. Therefore, the dictionary definitions are utterly irrelevant to understanding, because conveying the dictionary definition does not necessarly convey meaning. Therefore, the spell does NOT convey the dictionary meaning of a word, but the speakers meaning behind it.

Therefore, the spell does in fact convey the speakers innermost meanings.

So the spell whose stated purpose is to speak and understand languages has nothing to do with languages?

No the spell conveys the meaning of what is being said not specifically what is being said.

If you don't actually speak and understand all languages, why does the spell description actually say that you understand and speak all languages? If language is irrelevant why is the spell couched in those terms specifically?

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong book, but it doesn't say that any and all verbal/auditory communication is understood, just that you know spoken languages at 98%.

Sgt Anjay wrote:If you don't actually speak and understand all languages, why does the spell description actually say that you understand and speak all languages? If language is irrelevant why is the spell couched in those terms specifically?

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong book, but it doesn't say that any and all verbal/auditory communication is understood, just that you know spoken languages at 98%.

A spoken code is a language of sorts and thus you should understand it as well as be able to speak it, no?

No. Just because you know English doesn't mean you understand a spoken code using English. The spell lets you understand and speak the language at 98%. That's all it says.

Actually it just says any language and it could be interpreted as the code being a seperate language thus understandable. Is it right? depends on who is doing the interpreting of what is written. Definitely something that isn't 100% yay or nay in my books.

Well, it would be up to the GM what is and is not a language, though its hard to say that something that couldn't be spoken without the English language is a separate language from English.

But regardless, I would consider language to be relevant in the Tongues spell.

Sgt Anjay wrote:If you don't actually speak and understand all languages, why does the spell description actually say that you understand and speak all languages? If language is irrelevant why is the spell couched in those terms specifically?

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong book, but it doesn't say that any and all verbal/auditory communication is understood, just that you know spoken languages at 98%.

Because langugaes don't actually exsist. they're just a bunch of noises.

It's the tree falls in the forest only from the other end.

If a sound exsists, but no one gives it meaning, is it a word? no.

Therefore, what gives language meaning?

Persons intent.

Therefore to perfectly understand a lanaguage is to perfectly understand a persons intention by means of verbal noises.

I think that Sgt. Anjay has the right of it. The spell, according to the book, only allows the caster to understand and speak all spoken languages-in effect a magical translator.
@Nekira; While words ususally express the speakers thoughts, they don't always express intent. If the person speaking to the mage is literally spouting nonsense then all the Tongues spell will do is allow the caster to perfectly understand that the other person is literally speaking nonsense, NOT the speakers intent, as the spell clearly does not allow mind reading nor does it say "allows caster to divine speakers intent". The spell, by the standards of common sense, only allows the caster to understand any normally spoken language or words.
Yet if the words of said language are said in a purely random fashion then all the mage is going to understand are the individual words themselves which are in effect meaningless in terms of a languages purpose: to convey information.
Also, if languages & words don't exist and are just a bunch of noises then you're not "saying" anything of value here, now are you? You're just making noise.
Noise does not equal language, the shaping of noise into words for the purpose of expressing concepts is language.

Hi there!

First - and again - the concept of the Windtalkers must no be a new one to the 3Galaxies.

Second, if Tongues reads the speakers mind - than it is useless on radio. If the spell picks up "psychic imprint" like that of the
Haunting Entity, then it is able to translate codes - provided that someone actually spoke or wrote it down. Since there are
the object read and the telemechanics powers, I guess that even encoded transmissions from an automated listening post
can be dechiphered.

However there must be secure communications in the 3Galaxies, contrary to all those magic/psionic means - and that is
direct communication (ie. laser or microwave comm, where one has to be on the line between the transmitter and the
receiver).

That said, IMO most powers keep some psy department, where a large number of psionics, with Clairvoyance try to concentrate
on important matters.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:Hi there!

First - and again - the concept of the Windtalkers must no be a new one to the 3Galaxies.

Second, if Tongues reads the speakers mind - than it is useless on radio. If the spell picks up "psychic imprint" like that of the
Haunting Entity, then it is able to translate codes - provided that someone actually spoke or wrote it down. Since there are
the object read and the telemechanics powers, I guess that even encoded transmissions from an automated listening post
can be dechiphered.

However there must be secure communications in the 3Galaxies, contrary to all those magic/psionic means - and that is
direct communication (ie. laser or microwave comm, where one has to be on the line between the transmitter and the
receiver).

That said, IMO most powers keep some psy department, where a large number of psionics, with Clairvoyance try to concentrate
on important matters.

Adios
KLM

Valid point KLM. My thought was based upon the idea that the humans in the 3G are so far removed (both in time and place) from their history of Earth that they most likely would have forgotten the existance of the Windtalkers. I also figured that if the info still survived (somehow, somewhere) it would probably be mouldering in some long forgotten computer system or some ancient (by the standards of the current civ) library. The humans from Macross, being closer in time to WW2, would be more familiar w/ the story and (presuming any Navajo or other tribes survived the ROD) might still have access to that knowledge. It was mostly just a passing thought that will most likely have little to no bearing on my game tho'.

I don't get why you keep equating what i'm saying to mind reading. It's not. the spell detects the intent laiden in the words themselves by the speaker. that's the domain of magic, psionics do not need to be brought into the picture.

Rhomphaia wrote:Something tells me if this weren't a magic spell being discussed, and instead a technological language translator, then there really wouldn't be a discussion.

Obviously.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I don't get why you keep equating what i'm saying to mind reading. It's not. the spell detects the intent laiden in the words themselves by the speaker. that's the domain of magic, psionics do not need to be brought into the picture.

Because I don't see how a spell designed to translate spoken languages gives the caster insight into the speakers intent. All it does is allow the caster to understand and speak languages not discern intent. Intent is discerned thru context which includes actions. I could be speaking to a mage who's using Tongues and say a person is "Looney Tunes", but if said mage has not seen/heard of "Looney Tunes" (Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, et al.) then he's got no idea what I'm refering to. See Farscape for wonderful examples. They understand the words but not the context of the words. In fact the translator microbes are an excellent example of the spell.
Nowhere in the description of the spell does it say "discern speakers intent". Therefore you still discern intent the old fashioned way thru context and actions.

keir451 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I don't get why you keep equating what i'm saying to mind reading. It's not. the spell detects the intent laiden in the words themselves by the speaker. that's the domain of magic, psionics do not need to be brought into the picture.

Because I don't see how a spell designed to translate spoken languages gives the caster insight into the speakers intent. All it does is allow the caster to understand and speak languages not discern intent. Intent is discerned thru context which includes actions. I could be speaking to a mage who's using Tongues and say a person is "Looney Tunes", but if said mage has not seen/heard of "Looney Tunes" (Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, et al.) then he's got no idea what I'm refering to. See Farscape for wonderful examples. They understand the words but not the context of the words. In fact the translator microbes are an excellent example of the spell.
Nowhere in the description of the spell does it say "discern speakers intent". Therefore you still discern intent the old fashioned way thru context and actions.

How do you think that works though? Yes, it translates spoken languages, but have you actually thought about what that entails from a magical perspective? how it works? I've explained again and again: conveying the speakers intent is the only way that the spell could work. It can't translate langauges like a technological translator. they work on different principles.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I don't get why you keep equating what i'm saying to mind reading. It's not. the spell detects the intent laiden in the words themselves by the speaker. that's the domain of magic, psionics do not need to be brought into the picture.

Because I don't see how a spell designed to translate spoken languages gives the caster insight into the speakers intent. All it does is allow the caster to understand and speak languages not discern intent. Intent is discerned thru context which includes actions. I could be speaking to a mage who's using Tongues and say a person is "Looney Tunes", but if said mage has not seen/heard of "Looney Tunes" (Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, et al.) then he's got no idea what I'm refering to. See Farscape for wonderful examples. They understand the words but not the context of the words. In fact the translator microbes are an excellent example of the spell.
Nowhere in the description of the spell does it say "discern speakers intent". Therefore you still discern intent the old fashioned way thru context and actions.

How do you think that works though? Yes, it translates spoken languages, but have you actually thought about what that entails from a magical perspective? how it works? I've explained again and again: conveying the speakers intent is the only way that the spell could work. It can't translate langauges like a technological translator. they work on different principles.

Actually, fallacious assumption. The spell doesn't need to do such extensive work. It doesn't have to translate anything. It could just magically give you knowledge; it wouldn't be the only spell to similar purpose. In this case, the knowledge is that of spoken languages. You know languages the same as any other person who grew up speaking them does, you just acquired that knowledge magically. No muss, no fuss, no magic reading of minds for intent, and it actually agrees with the spell's description wherein it says that you know languages, not that you have a magical universal translator making all forms of auditory communication clear.

Sgt Anjay wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I don't get why you keep equating what i'm saying to mind reading. It's not. the spell detects the intent laiden in the words themselves by the speaker. that's the domain of magic, psionics do not need to be brought into the picture.

Because I don't see how a spell designed to translate spoken languages gives the caster insight into the speakers intent. All it does is allow the caster to understand and speak languages not discern intent. Intent is discerned thru context which includes actions. I could be speaking to a mage who's using Tongues and say a person is "Looney Tunes", but if said mage has not seen/heard of "Looney Tunes" (Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, et al.) then he's got no idea what I'm refering to. See Farscape for wonderful examples. They understand the words but not the context of the words. In fact the translator microbes are an excellent example of the spell.
Nowhere in the description of the spell does it say "discern speakers intent". Therefore you still discern intent the old fashioned way thru context and actions.

How do you think that works though? Yes, it translates spoken languages, but have you actually thought about what that entails from a magical perspective? how it works? I've explained again and again: conveying the speakers intent is the only way that the spell could work. It can't translate langauges like a technological translator. they work on different principles.

Actually, fallacious assumption. The spell doesn't need to do such extensive work. It doesn't have to translate anything. It could just magically give you knowledge; it wouldn't be the only spell to similar purpose. In this case, the knowledge is that of spoken languages. You know languages the same as any other person who grew up speaking them does, you just acquired that knowledge magically. No muss, no fuss, no magic reading of minds for intent, and it actually agrees with the spell's description wherein it says that you know languages, not that you have a magical universal translator making all forms of auditory communication clear.

I find myself in solid agreement w/ Sgt. Anjay. The spell essentially "gives" you knowledge of spoken languages, end of story.
But to fully answer your question Nekira, I felt that the spell worked like the translator microbes in Farscape, it allowed the caster or recipient of the spell to understand all languages spoken around him/her. The 2% area of the spell I relegated to cultural terms, like Looney Tunes, or "Turtle Power" and the like. Things that require a certain cultural context to understand and if only individual words are heard outside of their contextual references the caster/recipient would have to ask for furhter clarification, and the spell definetely does not allow for the deciphering of codes w/out the actual code cipher.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I don't get why you keep equating what i'm saying to mind reading. It's not. the spell detects the intent laiden in the words themselves by the speaker.

Sooo... The spell detects something like the Platonic idea of the text? Then it is the same effect, as the haunting entity or the
object read.

On the other hand, how do YOU (ie. Nekira) solve encrypted communications in the 3 Galaxies?

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I don't get why you keep equating what i'm saying to mind reading. It's not. the spell detects the intent laiden in the words themselves by the speaker.

Sooo... The spell detects something like the Platonic idea of the text? Then it is the same effect, as the haunting entity or the
object read.

On the other hand, how do YOU (ie. Nekira) solve encrypted communications in the 3 Galaxies?

Adios
KLM

I don't let Tounges translate ciphers, obviously. I'm not a complete moron.

I play devils advocate for fun. I really belived that, as written, tounges would let you understand all codes and ciphers.

With that said, there's no way in hell I would /use it/ that way in my games.

Ok, the final fleet count will contain the Main Colony vessel, 300 assorted warships, 4 Macross cannons, numerous fighters (and a partirdge in pear tree, but not the maids a milking ).
Some alterations I'm making to the ship the players will be on are; I'm increasing the ranges of the main weapons to 200,000 miles (to better fit my views of Macross/Space combat). This gives the UN spacy ships a range advantage in combat vs any 3G ships, they already have a slight speed advantage in that their sublight speeds as most Macross ships have speeds of .25 to .50 of light. I'm also going to outfit these ships w/ Fold drives (the originals from M2 didn't have Fold drives) and pin point barrier systems.
The cast currently consists of a Flight officer (run by my Gm's wife) who's a chauvinistic pig (thinks women are there to service him), a "Harvey Bullock" style Destroid pilot run by my Gm. This guy's kinda dirty and is the money man for the Fleet black market. He also has a bit of drug habit (cocaine addict). And, finally, a brand new squeaky clean Airman who's an orphan right out of school (run by my roommate)and is also the squads mechanic.

Hi there!

keir451 wrote:Some alterations I'm making to the ship the players will be on are; I'm increasing the ranges of the main weapons to 200,000 miles (to better fit my views of Macross/Space combat).

Err... If you keep the 3Galactic ships with their ranges that would result in nasty things.

Just put together a CCW/UWW/TGE/NE/Sploogie party, namely the equivalent of their CIA/KGB. Put in Noros, Royal Kreeghor (for their magic/psi
abilities, not because for the raw combat department), Machine People, a few Temporal classes and other magic users, not to mention
a dragon or two (metamorphosis)...

What would they do to obtain these weapons? What can they do with an opponent, which does not have any magic
means, even knowledge about magic/psi?

Or phase tech, for that matter.

Adios
KLM

Eh, I figure this is a fair trade off as the weapon systems of a UN Spacy Battleship aren't too heavy: Main Laser Cannons 2d6 x 1,000, Main Particle Beam Cannon 2d4 x 1,000, Rear laser Cannons (2) 1d4 x 1,000 ea. or 2d4 x 1,000 for both at the same target, the rest are short range laser turrets(12) (i'm also upping their damage from 1d6 x 10 to 2d6 x 10) and missiles (4d6 x 1,000 MD, range 3,000 mi.). The armor capacity of the battleship is moderate (8,900 Main Body, increased to 9,000 for my game) and the Pinpoint barriers will be set at 2,500 MDC ea. (4 of them) so this will allow the ship a fair chance of surviving against most ships except the Big Dogs of the fleets plus the increase in the anti-fighter laser's damage means they've better chance of defending against fighter assaults.
The ship also has subspace mass sensors w/a range of 1 AU (93 million miles) and the long range radar/targeting will now go to 200,000 mi. vs 2,000 mi.
Fighter contingent is 38, mainly VF-19's & VF-22's.

Hi there!

keir451 wrote:Eh, I figure this is a fair trade off as the weapon systems of a UN Spacy Battleship aren't too heavy:

In this regard you are right...

But still, I am talking about the cultural impact - someone arrives from far-far away, with serious deficiencies in the
"supernatural department", yet with a weapon more powerfull (in some regards) than anything known.

Any power block - which is not headed by a complete moron - WILL take measures, that
a, "we" get it
b, and noone else
c, especially not our mortal enemies

It is a bit similar when a small fleet of ships is rifted to the Cold War (1950s). They are about the same level, but have railguns
and do not have anti-submarine capabilities.

What would the US/NATO/USSR and China do (just to name a few)? Or - more appropriately - what wouldn't they do?

Nuke/torpedo them, before the reds/yanks get the tech? Possibly.

Get the stuff, whatever it takes? Most certainly.

It will cost us a carrier task force and the all the four Iowas? Deal.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:Hi there!

keir451 wrote:Eh, I figure this is a fair trade off as the weapon systems of a UN Spacy Battleship aren't too heavy:

In this regard you are right...

But still, I am talking about the cultural impact - someone arrives from far-far away, with serious deficiencies in the
"supernatural department", yet with a weapon more powerfull (in some regards) than anything known.

Any power block - which is not headed by a complete moron - WILL take measures, that
a, "we" get it
b, and noone else
c, especially not our mortal enemies

It is a bit similar when a small fleet of ships is rifted to the Cold War (1950s). They are about the same level, but have railguns
and do not have anti-submarine capabilities.

What would the US/NATO/USSR and China do (just to name a few)? Or - more appropriately - what wouldn't they do?

Nuke/torpedo them, before the reds/yanks get the tech? Possibly.

Get the stuff, whatever it takes? Most certainly.

It will cost us a carrier task force and the all the four Iowas? Deal.

Adios
KLM

I completely understand. Actually that's part of my plot for the game. The characters will be running around in a lone starship on recon so they'll need to survive and keep their tech out of "enemy hands", who those "enemies" are is up for grabs as of yet.
I've also decided that they will come out in the Thundercloud Galaxy (the opposite side from the CCW & TGE) so there is good chance that the planet the land on may have Killaryte on it. As another twist I may decide to have them find remnants of the Protoculture race out there too, w/the possibility of the Marduk actually making an appearance and it being discovered that they are Protoculture descendants.

keir451 wrote:Eh, I figure this is a fair trade off as the weapon systems of a UN Spacy Battleship aren't too heavy: Main Laser Cannons 2d6 x 1,000, Main Particle Beam Cannon 2d4 x 1,000, Rear laser Cannons (2) 1d4 x 1,000 ea. or 2d4 x 1,000 for both at the same target, the rest are short range laser turrets(12) (i'm also upping their damage from 1d6 x 10 to 2d6 x 10) and missiles (4d6 x 1,000 MD, range 3,000 mi.). The armor capacity of the battleship is moderate (8,900 Main Body, increased to 9,000 for my game) and the Pinpoint barriers will be set at 2,500 MDC ea. (4 of them) so this will allow the ship a fair chance of surviving against most ships except the Big Dogs of the fleets plus the increase in the anti-fighter laser's damage means they've better chance of defending against fighter assaults.
The ship also has subspace mass sensors w/a range of 1 AU (93 million miles) and the long range radar/targeting will now go to 200,000 mi. vs 2,000 mi.
Fighter contingent is 38, mainly VF-19's & VF-22's.

The trade off with UNSpacy (MC2) ships is that while the main/heavy cannons are comparible to PW, UNSpacy ships can fire their main weapons serveral times per melee, not per minute as with PW.

Jockitch74 wrote:

keir451 wrote:Eh, I figure this is a fair trade off as the weapon systems of a UN Spacy Battleship aren't too heavy: Main Laser Cannons 2d6 x 1,000, Main Particle Beam Cannon 2d4 x 1,000, Rear laser Cannons (2) 1d4 x 1,000 ea. or 2d4 x 1,000 for both at the same target, the rest are short range laser turrets(12) (i'm also upping their damage from 1d6 x 10 to 2d6 x 10) and missiles (4d6 x 1,000 MD, range 3,000 mi.). The armor capacity of the battleship is moderate (8,900 Main Body, increased to 9,000 for my game) and the Pinpoint barriers will be set at 2,500 MDC ea. (4 of them) so this will allow the ship a fair chance of surviving against most ships except the Big Dogs of the fleets plus the increase in the anti-fighter laser's damage means they've better chance of defending against fighter assaults.
The ship also has subspace mass sensors w/a range of 1 AU (93 million miles) and the long range radar/targeting will now go to 200,000 mi. vs 2,000 mi.
Fighter contingent is 38, mainly VF-19's & VF-22's.

The trade off with UNSpacy (MC2) ships is that while the main/heavy cannons are comparible to PW, UNSpacy ships can fire their main weapons serveral times per melee, not per minute as with PW.

I know . Sucks to be them. That means that the small M2 warships actually can inflict a decent turn of damage before retreating, and gods help any vessel that encounters a Macross Cannon. Total annihilatation.
Edit: I'm upping the MDC of the battle ship even further to 45,000 MDC, this bring it closer to the CCW battleships and makes it even more survivable. I'm also increasing it's sensor range to 1 parsec (area of a solar system). My reasoning is that the UN Spacy vessels and Marduk ships never closed to within visual range of each other, all the ships kept slugging it out from extreme range (at least 200,00 mi. or more).

I wouldn't extend the ranges to 200 000 miles. The weapon damages are in fact (for the heavy guns) on par with mostly anything in 3g so there is no need to give them a multi 1000% advantage in range. 3g would never get a shot off. I;d recommend increasing the UN Spacy ship ranges by x10 or x20. That would put them on par with the majority of 3g if not still give them a range advantage just not rediculously so.

When doing a crossover it has to have some sense of balance and common sense. Giving the UN Space ships ranges that are 1000 times farther than anything in the 3g is just to the point o f making the macross stuff nearly undefeatable since no 3g ships would be able to get in range. Your players would end up with no fear of a 3g flotilla of ships because the flotilla would never get into their own weapons range.

jaymz wrote:I wouldn't extend the ranges to 200 000 miles. The weapon damages are in fact (for the heavy guns) on par with mostly anything in 3g so there is no need to give them a multi 1000% advantage in range. 3g would never get a shot off. I;d recommend increasing the UN Spacy ship ranges by x10 or x20. That would put them on par with the majority of 3g if not still give them a range advantage just not rediculously so.

When doing a crossover it has to have some sense of balance and common sense. Giving the UN Space ships ranges that are 1000 times farther than anything in the 3g is just to the point of making the macross stuff nearly undefeatable since no 3g ships would be able to get in range. Your players would end up with no fear of a 3g flotilla of ships because the flotilla would never get into their own weapons range.

I understand where you're coming from, my problem tho' comes from the dichotomy of some of the ranges in M2. Even in the UN Spacy there are laser cannons that have ranges of 200,000 miles. Yet all the "main cannons" have weapon ranges that couldn't even reach orbit (8 to 30 mi.), this makes no sense esp. if your sensors range is 1 AU.
My thought is this; The UN Spacy is used to fighting Zentraedi, who have ships with weapon ranges in the hundreds of thousands, so the UN Spacy ships would be designed w/that in mind. Now I can balance that (if I want) by giving the 3G ships equivalent weapon ranges. That way each side has a parity in weapon range, but a difference in weapon destructiveness and armor capacities. By increasing the armor of the UN Spacy battleship (for example) I make much more a ship of the line a true "Battle ship" as it were, vs being a glorified frigate.
Then again if the CCW were to make an alliance w/ the people from Macross they might decide to change their weapon systems to equal that of the UN Spacy ships. Thus giving them a tactical advantage over the TGE.

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:I wouldn't extend the ranges to 200 000 miles. The weapon damages are in fact (for the heavy guns) on par with mostly anything in 3g so there is no need to give them a multi 1000% advantage in range. 3g would never get a shot off. I;d recommend increasing the UN Spacy ship ranges by x10 or x20. That would put them on par with the majority of 3g if not still give them a range advantage just not rediculously so.

When doing a crossover it has to have some sense of balance and common sense. Giving the UN Space ships ranges that are 1000 times farther than anything in the 3g is just to the point of making the macross stuff nearly undefeatable since no 3g ships would be able to get in range. Your players would end up with no fear of a 3g flotilla of ships because the flotilla would never get into their own weapons range.

I understand where you're coming from, my problem tho' comes from the dichotomy of some of the ranges in M2. Even in the UN Spacy there are laser cannons that have ranges of 200,000 miles. Yet all the "main cannons" have weapon ranges that couldn't even reach orbit (8 to 30 mi.), this makes no sense esp. if your sensors range is 1 AU.
My thought is this; The UN Spacy is used to fighting Zentraedi, who have ships with weapon ranges in the hundreds of thousands, so the UN Spacy ships would be designed w/that in mind. Now I can balance that (if I want) by giving the 3G ships equivalent weapon ranges. That way each side has a parity in weapon range, but a difference in weapon destructiveness and armor capacities. By increasing the armor of the UN Spacy battleship (for example) I make much more a ship of the line a true "Battle ship" as it were, vs being a glorified frigate.
Then again if the CCW were to make an alliance w/ the people from Macross they might decide to change their weapon systems to equal that of the UN Spacy ships. Thus giving them a tactical advantage over the TGE.

Or you could use the new Robotech book ranges on the zentraedi as a basis of the ranges you want hte UN Space ships ranges to be

Mind ytou a rejig ALL of the robotech/macross stuff to be make much more sense (such as the UNS battlehisp being a mile long not less than 300m or the Command Carrier to in fact be more along the lines of a new SDF class ship as is SHOULD be) so......

Yeah about that... I don't have the new Robotech book, so I use all the old RT stats and the stats from M2 and the Macross fan stats from the link you provided. I actually LIKE the longer ranges for the weapons and generally refuse to accept the "new" lower ranges. It just makes more sense to me that there should be more "science" in my science fiction.
If this means the UN Spacy ships have greater range than the 3G ships, then so be it. Let the other races/powers scramble to catch up while the UN Spacy up armors and sete about overturning the balance of power in 3G. It's nowhere near as bad as what my Gm & I have created on our own. THAT stuff just thrashes everyone be they Zentraedi or 3G because it follows real scientific priciples instead of the quasi-science favored by so many.
If I follow the standards of the M2 ships being nearly the size of the SDF-1 then their armor should be equivalent as well, instead of the tissue paper values given in the books (an issue I've no problem rectifying ).

keir451 wrote:Yeah about that... I don't have the new Robotech book, so I use all the old RT stats and the stats from M2 and the Macross fan stats from the link you provided. I actually LIKE the longer ranges for the weapons and generally refuse to accept the "new" lower ranges. It just makes more sense to me that there should be more "science" in my science fiction.
If this means the UN Spacy ships have greater range than the 3G ships, then so be it. Let the other races/powers scramble to catch up while the UN Spacy up armors and sete about overturning the balance of power in 3G. It's nowhere near as bad as what my Gm & I have created on our own. THAT stuff just thrashes everyone be they Zentraedi or 3G because it follows real scientific priciples instead of the quasi-science favored by so many.

Well there is having a range advantage then there is having a completely overwhelming range advantage

Mind you I have all sorts of notes the mods pretty much everything in Rifts to one degree or another especially ranges etc. I think as a rule of thumb i went with x1000 for 3g ship weapons (not point/anti-mecha/fighter weapons) I thik that puts the longest ranged 3g ship weapon at about 190 000km or so.

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:Yeah about that... I don't have the new Robotech book, so I use all the old RT stats and the stats from M2 and the Macross fan stats from the link you provided. I actually LIKE the longer ranges for the weapons and generally refuse to accept the "new" lower ranges. It just makes more sense to me that there should be more "science" in my science fiction.
If this means the UN Spacy ships have greater range than the 3G ships, then so be it. Let the other races/powers scramble to catch up while the UN Spacy up armors and sete about overturning the balance of power in 3G. It's nowhere near as bad as what my Gm & I have created on our own. THAT stuff just thrashes everyone be they Zentraedi or 3G because it follows real scientific priciples instead of the quasi-science favored by so many.

Well there is having a range advantage then there is having a completely overwhelming range advantage

Mind you I have all sorts of notes the mods pretty much everything in Rifts to one degree or another especially ranges etc. I think as a rule of thumb i went with x1000 for 3g ship weapons (not point/anti-mecha/fighter weapons) I thik that puts the longest ranged 3g ship weapon at about 190 000km or so.

That puts them nearly on par w/the ranges I'm using, as 190,000km = 118,060 mi., which is fine by me ('course my "homemade brew" has ranges that exceed that).

Yeah seem y macross stuff has them closer to 300 000km, so they still have a range advantage just not AS much

Mind you they also have a power advantage (I thinkt eh 8 heavy cannon turrets do 4d6x1000 once per melee) as part of my redesigns

Either way, the Macross fleet is currently outnumbered and even outgunned (again a numbers issue), but they have a few technologies that might give them a fighting chance. Namely Fold Drives and cloning as well as knowledge of the Protoculture technologies, 'cause if they can build Macross Cannons what else could they build? It'll just take time for them to build up militarily, plus they could start annexing planets as well once they realize what's going on out there (in the 3G that is).

keir451 wrote:Either way, the Macross fleet is currently outnumbered and even outgunned (again a numbers issue), but they have a few technologies that might give them a fighting chance. Namely Fold Drives and cloning as well as knowledge of the Protoculture technologies, 'cause if they can build Macross Cannons what else could they build? It'll just take time for them to build up militarily, plus they could start annexing planets as well once they realize what's going on out there (in the 3G that is).

well if the colonu fleet has a couple of factory ships as part of the fleet then actually builing up your military wont take THAT long if they have any decent amount of time to do so

jaymz wrote: Giving the UN Space ships ranges that are 1000 times farther than anything in the 3g is just to the point o f making the macross stuff nearly undefeatable since no 3g ships would be able to get in range. Your players would end up with no fear of a 3g flotilla of ships because the flotilla would never get into their own weapons range.

Khmm... Shadow Bolt fighter, from DMB2. Or even Star Ghosts. Or anyone, who casts Imp. to energy on his ship.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:

jaymz wrote: Giving the UN Space ships ranges that are 1000 times farther than anything in the 3g is just to the point o f making the macross stuff nearly undefeatable since no 3g ships would be able to get in range. Your players would end up with no fear of a 3g flotilla of ships because the flotilla would never get into their own weapons range.

Khmm... Shadow Bolt fighter, from DMB2. Or even Star Ghosts. Or anyone, who casts Imp. to energy on his ship.

Adios
KLM

All well and good but they would easily be overwhelmed by the fact the UNS ships typically carry exponentially more mecha overall on board and all of them use missiles and are at least on par with them for MDC and manueverability.

Actually some of the nastier stuff out Naruni Wave 2 makes the Macross gear look kinda weak. Like the Star Dragon, or the Reaper Assault Robot. Brrrrr I get choill just thinking about that stuff.

keir451 wrote:Actually some of the nastier stuff out Naruni Wave 2 makes the Macross gear look kinda weak. Like the Star Dragon, or the Reaper Assault Robot. Brrrrr I get choill just thinking about that stuff.

If you have the original CB1 you can use that upgrade the Mac2 stuff or the other Mac stuff youwill get off any websites as they were done using the original Robotech RPG as a basis anyway.

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:Actually some of the nastier stuff out Naruni Wave 2 makes the Macross gear look kinda weak. Like the Star Dragon, or the Reaper Assault Robot. Brrrrr I get choill just thinking about that stuff.

If you have the original CB1 you can use that upgrade the Mac2 stuff or the other Mac stuff youwill get off any websites as they were done using the original Robotech RPG as a basis anyway.

Yep, or (shudder) have Naruni upgrade the stuff.

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:Actually some of the nastier stuff out Naruni Wave 2 makes the Macross gear look kinda weak. Like the Star Dragon, or the Reaper Assault Robot. Brrrrr I get choill just thinking about that stuff.

If you have the original CB1 you can use that upgrade the Mac2 stuff or the other Mac stuff youwill get off any websites as they were done using the original Robotech RPG as a basis anyway.

Yep, or (shudder) have Naruni upgrade the stuff.

Nah Naruni isn't as great as everyone seems to think.

Hi there!

jaymz wrote:

KLM wrote:

jaymz wrote: Giving the UN Space ships ranges that are 1000 times farther than anything in the 3g is just to the point o f making the macross stuff nearly undefeatable since no 3g ships would be able to get in range. Your players would end up with no fear of a 3g flotilla of ships because the flotilla would never get into their own weapons range.

Khmm... Shadow Bolt fighter, from DMB2. Or even Star Ghosts. Or anyone, who casts Imp. to energy on his ship.

Adios
KLM

All well and good but they would easily be overwhelmed by the fact the UNS ships typically carry exponentially more mecha overall on board and all of them use missiles and are at least on par with them for MDC and manueverability.

Err... So what?

A single-seat space fighter survived a direct hit from the Macross cannon, launched missiles that continue to attack and damage,
and is attacking with lightning or something, which just tears the ship apart, without anything detectable (TK machineguns). Anyone
wants to fight them?

Drop in stuff like Time Slip spell (kinda funny in dogfight if your opponet gets a extra few seconds to manouver, while you are
are frozen in time), Shadow meld or the Phase-tech "one ship barrage".

Also, exponentially more mecha? How big is that UN spacy BS tonnagewise? Is that 38 valkyries the standard complement?

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:Hi there!

jaymz wrote:

KLM wrote:

jaymz wrote: Giving the UN Space ships ranges that are 1000 times farther than anything in the 3g is just to the point o f making the macross stuff nearly undefeatable since no 3g ships would be able to get in range. Your players would end up with no fear of a 3g flotilla of ships because the flotilla would never get into their own weapons range.

Khmm... Shadow Bolt fighter, from DMB2. Or even Star Ghosts. Or anyone, who casts Imp. to energy on his ship.

Adios
KLM

All well and good but they would easily be overwhelmed by the fact the UNS ships typically carry exponentially more mecha overall on board and all of them use missiles and are at least on par with them for MDC and manueverability.

Err... So what?

A single-seat space fighter survived a direct hit from the Macross cannon, launched missiles that continue to attack and damage,
and is attacking with lightning or something, which just tears the ship apart, without anything detectable (TK machineguns). Anyone
wants to fight them?

Drop in stuff like Time Slip spell (kinda funny in dogfight if your opponet gets a extra few seconds to manouver, while you are
are frozen in time), Shadow meld or the Phase-tech "one ship barrage".

Also, exponentially more mecha? How big is that UN spacy BS tonnagewise? Is that 38 valkyries the standard complement?

Adios
KLM

The Un Spacy Battleship is 3,650,000 tons, standard fighter complement is indeed 38, plus 24 Destroids. An odd side note; according to the Macross Mecha manual the ship M2 refers to as "battleship" is apparently a "flagship" while the M2 "corvette' is apparently the actual "battleship". The "corvette" even has more armor than the flagship, potentail translation error perhaps?
Anyway, most of the Frigate class vessels have a lesser fighter load, but once we get in to equivalent classes (batleship grade or above) the overall troop complement far exceedss that of the smaller UN Spacy vessels. The ral difference is in their respective combat theories, the UN Spacy seems geared more towards space battles, relying heavily on their trnasformable mecha to cover multiple roles. Where as the CCW and others in 3G seem to be geared for both space and ground combat, having fighters as well as actuall ground infantry and ground assault vehicles. The UN Spacy is going to have to reconsider their tactical doctrine in regards to the 3G standards.