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Hotrod wrote:Nice take on the part-time soldier. Few requirements, lots of flexibility. My thoughts:

1. Your description seems to be slightly condescending, like how a Spartan peer of yore would describe most part timers. I would consider taking a militia a bit more seriously as a viable military threat. Ancient Sparta's army and society were destroyed by yeomen of Thebes who spent most of their lives farming in Boeotia. I would revise your flavor text to reflect the reality that most feudal societies cannot support large standing armies, and therefore tend to draft militia to provide the bulk of their forces.

Well, having been a regular soldier myself in the Army, it's difficult to look at a "part-time" soldier any other way. I'm not usually one to put down any part of the military in any serious fashion, but the way the Militia OCC is designed is to be your basic everyday peasant or villager that has received some basic level of training in self defense and tactics. They aren't someone you'll see in the village wandering along the walls or streets with a spear and shield. They'll be hard at work at their actual civilian jobs, tending fields and crops, selling their wares, even putting the real adventurers up for the night in the Inn. It's when their village is attacked that they take up their arms and go charging into battle, often hoping that the real military will show up soon since they are better trained and equipped to deal with whatever may be threatening them. This isn't to say the Militia are cowardly, incompetent or bumbling fools. They just know they aren't as well trained, equipped or organized to deal with major threats to their communities as a proper military force is.

Hotrod wrote:2. I really like the whole 'second job' skillset. I would trim a couple of skills from the standard list (see next paragraph) and add them to this one. I would also consider giving the player the option to pick any combination of skills that would be necessary for a common profession. You might consider taking away the automatic upgrade to expert for the full timer; even the regular soldier starts with basic.

The OCC has a short list of the more common professions that can be held by a Militia Trooper as their civilian job, but GM's and players are encouraged to add more as they see fit. The auto upgrade for the full time Militia Trooper is based primarily on the fact that it's all he does. He doesn't run a tavern or tend a farm or dig ditches or any other form of civilian occupation. Without this civilian occupation to keep him busy, he has more time to devote to more advanced military training than his counterparts who are busy during the downtime pouring drinks, harvesting crops or whatever else it is they do. This is also why it's noted that the full time Militia Trooper is often considered an officer in the town's militia force; more advanced training usually means better, more competent leaders.

Hotrod wrote:3. OCC Skills: Basically, unless it is an absolute must for all militia work, I'd cut it from the OCC skill list.
Climb/Scale walls would be appropriate for, say, a mountain community, but not for an across-the-board OCC skill.
Learning a second language of choice as part of standard militia training doesn't fit for this.

While they are a part time soldier, they are still a soldier and do receive some basic soldiering skills... Climb/Scale Walls is one of those skills. No offense but I find your reference to the climb/scale walls skill being appropriate for a mountain community rather amusing. It's like saying a Soldier only needs to learn the skill if he's going to be in the mountains. Personally, I learned how to scale walls in the Army in basic training and never once got stationed in the mountains. But the skill came in pretty handy when I had to climb walls and get onto rooftops, which, by the way, is why the skill is referenced as Climb/Scale Walls. It's basic Soldier training. And finally, if the second language choice for a Militia Trooper doesn't fit, why does the average Peasant/Farmer/Vagabond OCC (which is essentially the basis for a Militia Trooper anyway) get 2 extra languages of choice?

Hotrod wrote:Overall, I really liked it.

Glad you liked it and thanks for the input. I hope I've addressed your concerns well enough

JuliusCreed wrote:Well, having been a regular soldier myself in the Army, it's difficult to look at a "part-time" soldier any other way. I'm not usually one to put down any part of the military in any serious fashion, but the way the Militia OCC is designed is to be your basic everyday peasant or villager that has received some basic level of training in self defense and tactics. They aren't someone you'll see in the village wandering along the walls or streets with a spear and shield. They'll be hard at work at their actual civilian jobs, tending fields and crops, selling their wares, even putting the real adventurers up for the night in the Inn. It's when their village is attacked that they take up their arms and go charging into battle, often hoping that the real military will show up soon since they are better trained and equipped to deal with whatever may be threatening them. This isn't to say the Militia are cowardly, incompetent or bumbling fools. They just know they aren't as well trained, equipped or organized to deal with major threats to their communities as a proper military force is.

As a current regular soldier in the Army, I see this attitude a lot. There may be something to it when it comes to conducting large-scale training exercises, but when it's time to deploy, and the guard units actually come together and get to train and work together full time for a while, they can be just as good as any regular unit. More so, in fact; their additional skills can be quite valuable, and they tend to not have as many arrogant jerks in their leadership. Makes them a lot easier to work with.

I see this as more of a 'volunteers who drill together regularly' kind of OCC, not a 'Hey, everyone, here come the wolfen, bring your pitchfork and stand to!' kind of OCC. Citizen soldiers they may be, and their training may not be as advanced (perhaps restrict hand to hand to basic or expert?), but feudal societies cannot support large standing armies.

The OCC has a short list of the more common professions that can be held by a Militia Trooper as their civilian job, but GM's and players are encouraged to add more as they see fit. The auto upgrade for the full time Militia Trooper is based primarily on the fact that it's all he does. He doesn't run a tavern or tend a farm or dig ditches or any other form of civilian occupation. Without this civilian occupation to keep him busy, he has more time to devote to more advanced military training than his counterparts who are busy during the downtime pouring drinks, harvesting crops or whatever else it is they do. This is also why it's noted that the full time Militia Trooper is often considered an officer in the town's militia force; more advanced training usually means better, more competent leaders.

That makes sense. I would think that the generic Soldier OCC would work for a full-timer, but since militias have different roles from regular soldier missions, it works.

While they are a part time soldier, they are still a soldier and do receive some basic soldiering skills... Climb/Scale Walls is one of those skills. No offense but I find your reference to the climb/scale walls skill being appropriate for a mountain community rather amusing. It's like saying a Soldier only needs to learn the skill if he's going to be in the mountains. Personally, I learned how to scale walls in the Army in basic training and never once got stationed in the mountains. But the skill came in pretty handy when I had to climb walls and get onto rooftops, which, by the way, is why the skill is referenced as Climb/Scale Walls. It's basic Soldier training. And finally, if the second language choice for a Militia Trooper doesn't fit, why does the average Peasant/Farmer/Vagabond OCC (which is essentially the basis for a Militia Trooper anyway) get 2 extra languages of choice?

No offense taken at all. I see climb/scale walls as a bit more involved than what the Army puts you through on an obstacle or confidence course, which I consider adequately covered by athletics. I see it as more of a 'Climb up that 200-foot cliff using some rope, a hammer, and some metal pins' kind of skill, hence my reference. I think selected skills should allow the character to do more than a decently fit layman can do.

Good point on the language skill consistency. I tend to think that most folks don't learn one or two additional languages, but perhaps Palladium's culture is more multilingual.

Glad you liked it and thanks for the input. I hope I've addressed your concerns well enough

No problem. This is a great topic.

Well I would add a few special skills for soldiers at hight level like millitary tactics,Teamwokr,disiplsned.

Thank you again for these posts. They help a in the kingdoms game I am putting together.

aracroft wrote:*Setting down his walking stick*

It has been years since I was last on these forums and it is amazing what has changed and what has stayed the same, but enough of that.

First of all you have been very thorough in your creation of these new OCC's the write ups are great flavor text that then flows on to what you have fleshed out.

Welcome back! And thank you.

aracroft wrote:I just have one question and forgive me if this offends.

Why?

No offense taken at all. Your question is just as legitimate as any other presented on this or any other forum.

aracroft wrote:To expand my question. Why do you feel the need to supercharge this OCC, yes it is arguably the weakest Men at Arms OCC (personaly I think the Mercenary is on a par more skills [just] but no focus is required in skill selection and with lower stat requirements it loses out without a very tight build that could be achieved with the Solider OCC anyway. *finishes shaking his stick at the wayward children*

It's not so much a need to 'supercharge' the OCC as it is an attempt to expand on the possibilities that the base OCC itself should be able to present. Yes, there are a whole slew of other OCC's out there that can conceivably cover many of the OCC's I've presented here. The only real stand alone OCC's I've created here are, in fact, the Field Medic and the Engineer. A Military Scout... a Ranger could cover that easily enough. Sniper? A Longbowman with a skill set slightly focused around the Assassin OCC. Cavalry? Knights and Palladins easily cover this. And the Marines? Well I recall someone commenting that what I came up with was 'a Jannisary dialed to 11'. The basic point of what I was shooting for was to take the mainstream OCC's and give them a more military background and skill set. Basically, if an army wanted to train their own Rangers or Longbowmen, what kind of skills would they have? Would an army be more worried about a Ranger's ability to track and hunt wild game or would they be more concerned about the kind of intel he could provide while behind enemy lines. Thus, the Military Scout is born... a Ranger with a stronger focus on military skills and training while keeping the same basic hunter focus. And while a Longbowman certainly fills the slot of Sniper quite readily, traditionally the Longbowman, at least on a medieval battlefield, was used en masse as an anti-personnel artillery unit first and a surgical strike force second. The Sniper is specifically trained as the surgical strike unit, accomplishing with a single shot what an entire army cannot. For all intents, the Sniper OCC is an odd combination of Ranger, Longbowman and Assassin all rolled into one... a long distance hunter, tracker and killer of men. Again, any of the previously mentioned OCC's can fill this role. But I like to think that what I created here fills the role more completely.

aracroft wrote:And yes I am making fun of myself even as I challenge your assertion that the Solider needs 'beefing up' and I say beefing up as most of these OCC's stand so far above the Solider that they are hard pressed to deserve the soldier left in their title. Well that was a bit Generalised I like the concept of the Field Medic just as I like the concept of the Engineer with a few bonuses on key skills in that area. After those two howver you start to lose me. Yes real modern military forces have these kind of skill sets and I guess that is where your inspiration comes from but it steps outside the setting to create them at the power level you have. (Yes I know that there was calls for a hopilite style OCC variant but you were calling for extra skills, trust me the Solider OCC with WP Spear and WP Paired can do the job without any tweaking needed).

To be honest, I really never thought the basic Soldier OCC needed 'beefing up'... just expansion. I saw the base Soldier OCC as the front line grunt. One of the multitude that hear and obey, like your basic army infantryman. Yes, each individual character created could have his own particular specialties according to chosen skill sets, but to be perfectly honest, I could never really see much variation among them. Deep down, they were all still a basic infantry soldier. I wanted to make something that took that basic infantry soldier and made it something a little more than just a ground pounding joe. And while other OCC's provided much of what I wanted, they still lacked that certain flavor that really made them military. Yes, armies routinely hire Longbowmen, Rangers, Assassins and any number of other OCC's to fill out the specialized roles of their ranks. So what's to stop an army from training their own versions of these OCC's with skill sets geared more toward what the military is really looking for in these specialized classes? There's always going to be a need for the base line Soldier... someone has to man the front lines and charge in against the enemy, right? But why should the Soldier OCC itself stop there?

aracroft wrote:Each to their own I know and from the reply's I can see that the is a real hunger for these kind of OCC's amongst you but I would (not so humbly) suggest that if you want to play a Sniper, play a Longbowman OCC the solider section even has average pays for them because
in this setting they are the Snipers of the armies.

*Rant over* Remember all I can offer is my own take on things, if you like or need to expand the Solider OCC these are well thought out and executed examples and in spite of how it sounds I do take my hat off to you for finding a solution to what you find lacking in your games.

Enjoy.

Thanks again for the compliment and critique. As I like to say, what I present here is to be seen as a use or lose idea. If you like it, use it, if not, lose it. And again, no offense is taken at all from the comments or critiques. I'm not so vain as to think I'll please everyone with what I present here, but if even one person likes even a glimmer of what I've done, then I feel I've done a good thing.
Good luck and great gaming!