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Rahmota wrote:Juicers need to keep their check out time to make them a playable class with the uniqueness that having a built in timer gives them. It gives the character a definate goal, definate motivation to do somethign with his life and a definate reason to make a if not difference an impact in the world.

And I have played in games that have lasted long enough real world and game world that can be measured in years.

Since when do OCC have to have goals forced onto them? Particularly when what it actually does is LIMIT the goals, it certainly doesn't expand on them. You've no future and nothing to plan for in fact, just a quick and agonizing death or longer agonizing life after detox as a mortal or cyborg. I'd rather be the one deciding the goals of my PC rather than the class.

Killer Cyborg wrote:In a recent discussion, it was proposed:

you aren't going to find many if any who'd complain about having a Juicer that didn't have a 5-7 year life span and had one as long as every other PC in the group.

I feel that this is an interesting question, and thought it might make for an interesting poll.
The issue here is, would the Juicer OCC be better from a gaming point of view if it did not include the shorter lifespans?

No it'd make the game much, much worse. Kevin knew from the start that the human body can only handle those kinds of stresses fro so long before it just gives out, thus the limited life span of the Juicer. To de-limit the Juicer is the effectively Munckinism even by Rifts standards.

Dead Boy wrote:John Henry Holliday DDS, aka Doc Holliday. [...] He was [...] frequently drunk on alcohol and and high as a kite on laudanum. I suspect his aim was to die like a man in a blaze of glory.

Maybe I'm a little prudish or a stick-in-the-mud, but to me no male* can die a man* or a in a blaze of glory while drunk and/or high on laudanum. Those are both powerful crutches allowing one to achieve fake courage due to an absence of good judgment. It's easier to charge into the teeth of overwhelming odds if the part of your brain telling you it's a bad idea has been switched off.

* My apologies for any perceived sexism in that statement. I couldn't think of a gender neutral way of phrasing it.

RainOfSteel wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:John Henry Holliday DDS, aka Doc Holliday. [...] He was [...] frequently drunk on alcohol and and high as a kite on laudanum. I suspect his aim was to die like a man in a blaze of glory.

Maybe I'm a little prudish or a stick-in-the-mud, but to me no male* can die a man* or a in a blaze of glory while drunk and/or high on laudanum. Those are both powerful crutches allowing one to achieve fake courage due to an absence of good judgment. It's easier to charge into the teeth of overwhelming odds if the part of your brain telling you it's a bad idea has been switched off.

* My apologies for any perceived sexism in that statement. I couldn't think of a gender neutral way of phrasing it.

I agree, i think, pain can make people do strange things, pain medications can make them do MANY strange things.

Since when do OCC have to have goals forced onto them? Particularly when what it actually does is LIMIT the goals, it certainly doesn't expand on them. You've no future and nothing to plan for in fact, just a quick and agonizing death or longer agonizing life after detox as a mortal or cyborg. I'd rather be the one deciding the goals of my PC rather than the class.

They dont and the check out time is not forcing goals on the player or the character. they could become a murderous ravening power hungry monster or they could be a heroic fighter for good, justice and truth. It just means that instead of having a lifetime to make the decision they have only a few years. And I would rather ban the OCC altogether (which I have done with multiple OCC/RCCs and just say they dont exist) than to have a character try and cheat on the check out time by pretending it doesnt exist. It actually in my and my groups opinion ENHANCES the role playing knowing that the sword of damacles is hanging over their head, moreso than the usual. there are multiple options for the character to choose when their timer dings. They can become a cyborg yes. they can try the deotox and retire with honor if that is the life they led, they can go out fighting the good fight to push back the tide of darkness, they can die in a futile bid for more glory, they can seek out dark magics to extend their life, they can try and find someone to clone them into a new body, they can do a lot of things. So i have to disagree with your assessment of that.

Post subject: Re: Juicers Without Downsides

RainOfSteel wrote:
Dead Boy wrote:
John Henry Holliday DDS, aka Doc Holliday. [...] He was [...] frequently drunk on alcohol and and high as a kite on laudanum. I suspect his aim was to die like a man in a blaze of glory.Maybe I'm a little prudish or a stick-in-the-mud, but to me no male* can die a man* or a in a blaze of glory while drunk and/or high on laudanum. Those are both powerful crutches allowing one to achieve fake courage due to an absence of good judgment. It's easier to charge into the teeth of overwhelming odds if the part of your brain telling you it's a bad idea has been switched off.

* My apologies for any perceived sexism in that statement. I couldn't think of a gender neutral way of phrasing it.


I agree, i think, pain can make people do strange things, pain medications can make them do MANY strange things.

I'll agree like the song says "ten feet tall and bulletproof."

I would hope that you would offer alternate augmented classes if you remove the ones in the book. I feel, in my opinion that playing a dying character takes away from my enjoyment of the game, I do not want to play a dying character. Would love to see everyone alternate classes.

boxee wrote:I would hope that you would offer alternate augmented classes if you remove the ones in the book. I feel, in my opinion that playing a dying character takes away from my enjoyment of the game, I do not want to play a dying character. Would love to see everyone alternate classes.

Almost ALL characters are dying characters.

All except the immortal ones.

We do need more "augemented" classes available that are more than :

Cybernetics/Bionics (Partial & Full bodies) (steel over meat)
Brain Implants (cyber-implant)
Chemical Augementation (chemicals and cybernetic implants)
Power Armor & Robot Vehicles (hardware over meat)

In worldbooks and sourcebooks we have seen added :

Magical Augementations (Spell users, tattooes, & more)
Magical Transformations of various and numberous types.
TW Cyborgs (anti-monsters, etc...)

Most of the new or added types of cool augementations are Magical in nature really. Many of them have mild side-effect to none at all or the side-effects are a bonus not a penality at all.
How many Science based Augementation have we seen added which are not varients of the mainbook types. None. We only see new cyborgs, varient juicers, crazies, and new PAs/RVs.
Hows about a few genetic engineering Augementation OCCs for humans that are not based on Mutant Animals in any way. If Lonestar had a few more Human augementations for Human Soldiers, it would have been nice and refreshing. We could have a few nice super-soldiers occs without huge penalities for a change.
Why does the Science based occs need Penalities, while many of the Magical based ones does not ?

The problem is GM fairness. If one guy is playing a juicer and another guy is playing a mage, this can't be balanced properly. The mage needs lots of time to go off and do research. Well, the Juicer is going to want to do something every day to make the most of the time he's got. This is not really balancable. How many sessions will the mage be sitting on his butt while the Juicer runs around and does things?

Some people will say "The answer is for someone not to play a mage." or "The answer is for someone not to play a juicer." That's nice. These games are about having fun. If the game becomes not fun because the Juicer isn't getting what he wants or the Mage isn't getting what he wants, one of these two characters will have to leave. That's a little scummy, as far as I'm concerned. Plus, it creates unnecessary player animosity, where either you have a mage that kind of sucks because he can never research anything, or a Juicer who has like six adventures in his life because the mage can't learn any new magic. This is not conducive to out of game harmony.

TechnoGothic wrote:Why does the Science based occs need Penalities, while many of the Magical based ones does not ?

So-called "penalties" are the result of the use of available systems that do not function correctly, or as well as could be possible. That's all. They are part and parcel of the overall "look and feel" of Rifts Earth.

If you headed off to the Three Galaxies or a similar setting, you could undoubtedly find perfected versions.

If you want to in your own Rifts Earth campaign, just do it differently. It's not like the classes are balanced to begin with, so any changes aren't going to affect what doesn't exist.

On the other hand, changes will affect player decisions on what classes they take, so make sure all your changes are available for player review when it comes time to create characters.

I have long kicked around an idea for Contacts for the classes. Where uber-munchkins get one or two, and vagabonds and city rats get lots.

Balabanto wrote:The problem is GM fairness. If one guy is playing a juicer and another guy is playing a mage, this can't be balanced properly. The mage needs lots of time to go off and do research.

Research what? I can't remember any research rules for Ley Line walkers. It's not like there are spell design or enchant item rules. With RUE, a Techno-Wizard needs time to do research, but that's pretty recent.

Balabanto wrote:Well, the Juicer is going to want to do something every day to make the most of the time he's got. This is not really balancable.

Chop-shop docs can offer suspension-tank services. Just stick a Juicer (or even any character) into a tank, and he doesn't age against his deadline. Suspended animation is going to be simple in comparison to some of the other technologies being turned out in Rifts Earth.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Balabanto wrote:The problem is GM fairness. If one guy is playing a juicer and another guy is playing a mage, this can't be balanced properly. The mage needs lots of time to go off and do research. Well, the Juicer is going to want to do something every day to make the most of the time he's got. This is not really balancable. How many sessions will the mage be sitting on his butt while the Juicer runs around and does things?

Some people will say "The answer is for someone not to play a mage." or "The answer is for someone not to play a juicer." That's nice. These games are about having fun. If the game becomes not fun because the Juicer isn't getting what he wants or the Mage isn't getting what he wants, one of these two characters will have to leave. That's a little scummy, as far as I'm concerned. Plus, it creates unnecessary player animosity, where either you have a mage that kind of sucks because he can never research anything, or a Juicer who has like six adventures in his life because the mage can't learn any new magic. This is not conducive to out of game harmony.

We've never had a problem with things like this in our game. What exactly are Mages going off to research?

Pretty sure he means the 2 days per spell level that it takes to learn a new spell. With a Juicer in the game that would be quite significant - it takes a whole month to learn a new spell. A mage who actively learns new spells is going to be killing his Juicer buddy.

Here was my workaround:
We had cloning tech, and whenever we would do the surgeries that would trigger the Juicer process we would take biological samples from the juicers and grow them to viability without consciousness. The we would use a Techno wizard device that would transfer the last calling juicer to his clone. Achy Breakies can get a clone too, my Operator has been Biologically 25 for 25 years because of a combination of a penthouse in a Pyramid and having a group of clones in the freezer.

As for crazies, we send juicers to deal with them.

Balabanto wrote:These games are about having fun.

Maybe for you.

Two days per spell level??? New rule?

Shinitenshi wrote:

boxee wrote:Two days per spell level??? New rule?

No Pg.22 in the Book of Magic states that mages being taught new spells take two days per level of the spell to master it.

That probably is something of a new rule depending on when you got your last book or if you never got BoM.

Yea new rule for me, not sure I would use it, more likely just gloss over it.

Let's face it, we're talking about how FUN the Juicer is for someone in the end with the death sentence vs without. The limited lifespan has no game influence beyond when your character will die (and with an Atlantean Juicer who has like 25+ years of life as far as a regular campaign goes he'll be able to go the entire length of a game without fear of dying, so that death sentence ends up pretty meaningless doesn't it? ). It's also not why people pick a Juicer, you don't pick a character based on how soon it'll die you pick it based on how cool/fun/kick-@$$ it is. Being a Juicer is about being the chemically augmented super-human, it's certainly not about the limited life-span and early death. That was more than likely included to satisfy the annoying people who complain to Palladium about every little thing to the point they take up entire pages in every book with large bold text saying 'We don't condone this kind of behavior!/THIS IS JUST FANTASY!' and so forth.

Meanwhile even as the public tends to hear 'eww evil drug use' plenty of drugs that get abused have very beneficial effects, yet a slew of heroes in comics underwent 'darker and angstier' transformations where their formerly completely safe chemical boost (Hourman for example) became something dark and evil to overcome. Not everyone wants to be 'overcoming' though, they want a good time, to enjoy that augmented superhuman battling alongside everyone else. They don't want to hear 'hey btw you know that character you'd love to play? Make sure to have a replacement rolled up because he's going to die long before everyone else and you'll have to start at scratch'. Doesn't take long that a diligent mage is casting spells that can let them take on power armor and give dragons pause, meanwhile the Juicer's still just a Juicer and hasn't really gone up that much in stats at the same point. His only upgrade is what weapons and armor he can acquire. There isn't much reason to insist on the death sentence other than 'drugs are bad got to make sure to punish you for that character that gets his powers from drugs'.

Nightmask wrote:Let's face it, we're talking about how FUN the Juicer is for someone in the end with the death sentence vs without. The limited lifespan has no game influence beyond when your character will die (and with an Atlantean Juicer who has like 25+ years of life as far as a regular campaign goes he'll be able to go the entire length of a game without fear of dying, so that death sentence ends up pretty meaningless doesn't it? ). It's also not why people pick a Juicer, you don't pick a character based on how soon it'll die you pick it based on how cool/fun/kick-@$$ it is. Being a Juicer is about being the chemically augmented super-human, it's certainly not about the limited life-span and early death. That was more than likely included to satisfy the annoying people who complain to Palladium about every little thing to the point they take up entire pages in every book with large bold text saying 'We don't condone this kind of behavior!/THIS IS JUST FANTASY!' and so forth.

Meanwhile even as the public tends to hear 'eww evil drug use' plenty of drugs that get abused have very beneficial effects, yet a slew of heroes in comics underwent 'darker and angstier' transformations where their formerly completely safe chemical boost (Hourman for example) became something dark and evil to overcome. Not everyone wants to be 'overcoming' though, they want a good time, to enjoy that augmented superhuman battling alongside everyone else. They don't want to hear 'hey btw you know that character you'd love to play? Make sure to have a replacement rolled up because he's going to die long before everyone else and you'll have to start at scratch'. Doesn't take long that a diligent mage is casting spells that can let them take on power armor and give dragons pause, meanwhile the Juicer's still just a Juicer and hasn't really gone up that much in stats at the same point. His only upgrade is what weapons and armor he can acquire. There isn't much reason to insist on the death sentence other than 'drugs are bad got to make sure to punish you for that character that gets his powers from drugs'.

Maybe create an alternate class for super soldiers? Can be made with heroes unlimited, or use bio-cyberware, get rid of the harness. Use the juicers as NPCs? Use the same backbone for the class, just change the "juicer" part to fit your game?

Nightmask wrote:Let's face it, we're talking about how FUN the Juicer is for someone in the end with the death sentence vs without. The limited lifespan has no game influence beyond when your character will die (and with an Atlantean Juicer who has like 25+ years of life as far as a regular campaign goes he'll be able to go the entire length of a game without fear of dying, so that death sentence ends up pretty meaningless doesn't it? ). It's also not why people pick a Juicer, you don't pick a character based on how soon it'll die you pick it based on how cool/fun/kick-@$$ it is. Being a Juicer is about being the chemically augmented super-human, it's certainly not about the limited life-span and early death. That was more than likely included to satisfy the annoying people who complain to Palladium about every little thing to the point they take up entire pages in every book with large bold text saying 'We don't condone this kind of behavior!/THIS IS JUST FANTASY!' and so forth.

Meanwhile even as the public tends to hear 'eww evil drug use' plenty of drugs that get abused have very beneficial effects, yet a slew of heroes in comics underwent 'darker and angstier' transformations where their formerly completely safe chemical boost (Hourman for example) became something dark and evil to overcome. Not everyone wants to be 'overcoming' though, they want a good time, to enjoy that augmented superhuman battling alongside everyone else. They don't want to hear 'hey btw you know that character you'd love to play? Make sure to have a replacement rolled up because he's going to die long before everyone else and you'll have to start at scratch'. Doesn't take long that a diligent mage is casting spells that can let them take on power armor and give dragons pause, meanwhile the Juicer's still just a Juicer and hasn't really gone up that much in stats at the same point. His only upgrade is what weapons and armor he can acquire. There isn't much reason to insist on the death sentence other than 'drugs are bad got to make sure to punish you for that character that gets his powers from drugs'.

no you still do not get it...
The Juicer (and the borg and crazy for that matter) are about the price of power.

Damian Magecraft wrote:no you still do not get it...
The Juicer (and the borg and crazy for that matter) are about the price of power.

I get it just fine, and it has nothing to do with 'the price of power'. So you'd be the one who isn't 'getting it', to insist that such a limited perspective is all that there is and all the class is good for is its downfalls and somehow without them it's not fun anymore.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Let's face it, we're talking about how FUN the Juicer is for someone in the end with the death sentence vs without. The limited lifespan has no game influence beyond when your character will die (and with an Atlantean Juicer who has like 25+ years of life as far as a regular campaign goes he'll be able to go the entire length of a game without fear of dying, so that death sentence ends up pretty meaningless doesn't it? ). It's also not why people pick a Juicer, you don't pick a character based on how soon it'll die you pick it based on how cool/fun/kick-@$$ it is. Being a Juicer is about being the chemically augmented super-human, it's certainly not about the limited life-span and early death. That was more than likely included to satisfy the annoying people who complain to Palladium about every little thing to the point they take up entire pages in every book with large bold text saying 'We don't condone this kind of behavior!/THIS IS JUST FANTASY!' and so forth.

Meanwhile even as the public tends to hear 'eww evil drug use' plenty of drugs that get abused have very beneficial effects, yet a slew of heroes in comics underwent 'darker and angstier' transformations where their formerly completely safe chemical boost (Hourman for example) became something dark and evil to overcome. Not everyone wants to be 'overcoming' though, they want a good time, to enjoy that augmented superhuman battling alongside everyone else. They don't want to hear 'hey btw you know that character you'd love to play? Make sure to have a replacement rolled up because he's going to die long before everyone else and you'll have to start at scratch'. Doesn't take long that a diligent mage is casting spells that can let them take on power armor and give dragons pause, meanwhile the Juicer's still just a Juicer and hasn't really gone up that much in stats at the same point. His only upgrade is what weapons and armor he can acquire. There isn't much reason to insist on the death sentence other than 'drugs are bad got to make sure to punish you for that character that gets his powers from drugs'.

no you still do not get it...
The Juicer (and the borg and crazy for that matter) are about the price of power.

Exactly!

Yea and that is kinda stupid, rather then having a fun time your trying to teach the "drugs are bad" idea, come on guys, it is a power game, the juicer should be a cool class not one that is meant to teach us a lesson. What lesson are you really teaching? Try to find a loop hole around the system. Make a demon pact or be something not close to human since they are better? They could have made the juicer and crazy without trying to teach a pointless lesson. How about the lesson of technology can help us protect ourselves against demons and evil creatures. Whats next trying to teach us guns are bad?

Nightmask wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:no you still do not get it...
The Juicer (and the borg and crazy for that matter) are about the price of power.

I get it just fine, and it has nothing to do with 'the price of power'. So you'd be the one who isn't 'getting it', to insist that such a limited perspective is all that there is and all the class is good for is its downfalls and somehow without them it's not fun anymore.

You want the power but are unwilling to pay the price.
that is all that your arguments revolve around.
Spoken like a true... (well you know).

Freedom of choice is paramount. Like I said I would like to see other supersoldiers that are not screwed.

boxee wrote:Freedom of choice is paramount. Like I said I would like to see other supersoldiers that are not screwed.

Would be nice if Freedom Of Choice was paramount, unfortunately it seems fairly down the list. Suggest even minor changes and one can get grilled for it and no real consideration of the change beyond insisting there's only the one 'right' way. For the Juicer they're about 'Oh man look at me, I'm super-fast and I've got the power!', they aren't about 'oh man I'm so eager to sell my life away!'.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

boxee wrote:Freedom of choice is paramount. Like I said I would like to see other supersoldiers that are not screwed.

Would be nice if Freedom Of Choice was paramount, unfortunately it seems fairly down the list. Suggest even minor changes and one can get grilled for it and no real consideration of the change beyond insisting there's only the one 'right' way. For the Juicer they're about 'Oh man look at me, I'm super-fast and I've got the power!', they aren't about 'oh man I'm so eager to sell my life away!'.

Juicers are what Juicers are, if you want them without their penalties then make them, only they won't be Juicers

Yeah, I'm pretty sure a Juicer is still very much a Juicer being able to live to a ripe old age (at least as defined by the dangerous setting and lifestyle) as he is if he's a burned out and dead husk after 5-7 years. It's not dying in 5 years that makes him a Juicer, it's the whole 'augmented human by chemical means' that makes him a Juicer. Confusing a penalty with the salient point of class, expanding it beyond its actual value. If Palladium came out with a book next month with the 'new and improved Juicer, all side-effects lifted!' inside it would you argue that it can't be a 'real' Juicer because it doesn't die in 5 years? Sorry but that penalty isn't the class, it's never been the class. The class has always been about the chemically-augmented superhuman, nothing more, nothing less. Removing the restriction no more makes it not a 'real' juicer than you'd stop being a 'real human' if you were somehow born able to live for a thousand years and everyone else was still having a century be incredibly lucky.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The issue here is, would the Juicer OCC be better from a gaming point of view if it did not include the shorter lifespans?

Well have not read the responces .. but my two copper pieces are ..

I've never in my entire Rifts gaming / gm'ing career ever seen 1 player play a juicer till they have reached that moment of their lifespan.

I can honestly say with all due personal experiences .. It would not matter as I've never seen anyone play a juicer till they "checked out" .

Giant2005 wrote:Pretty sure he means the 2 days per spell level that it takes to learn a new spell. With a Juicer in the game that would be quite significant - it takes a whole month to learn a new spell.

How many 15th level spells are getting learned here?

RainOfSteel wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:Pretty sure he means the 2 days per spell level that it takes to learn a new spell. With a Juicer in the game that would be quite significant - it takes a whole month to learn a new spell.

How many 15th level spells are getting learned here?

In your game? Or out of your game?

boxee wrote:

RainOfSteel wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:Pretty sure he means the 2 days per spell level that it takes to learn a new spell. With a Juicer in the game that would be quite significant - it takes a whole month to learn a new spell.

How many 15th level spells are getting learned here?

In your game? Or out of your game?

So we are clear In your game meaning a player in a normal game.
Out of your game meaning out of all the npcs in your game have any learned a 15th level spell.

Nightmask wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

boxee wrote:Freedom of choice is paramount. Like I said I would like to see other supersoldiers that are not screwed.

Would be nice if Freedom Of Choice was paramount, unfortunately it seems fairly down the list. Suggest even minor changes and one can get grilled for it and no real consideration of the change beyond insisting there's only the one 'right' way. For the Juicer they're about 'Oh man look at me, I'm super-fast and I've got the power!', they aren't about 'oh man I'm so eager to sell my life away!'.

Juicers are what Juicers are, if you want them without their penalties then make them, only they won't be Juicers

Yeah, I'm pretty sure a Juicer is still very much a Juicer being able to live to a ripe old age (at least as defined by the dangerous setting and lifestyle) as he is if he's a burned out and dead husk after 5-7 years. It's not dying in 5 years that makes him a Juicer, it's the whole 'augmented human by chemical means' that makes him a Juicer. Confusing a penalty with the salient point of class, expanding it beyond its actual value. If Palladium came out with a book next month with the 'new and improved Juicer, all side-effects lifted!' inside it would you argue that it can't be a 'real' Juicer because it doesn't die in 5 years? Sorry but that penalty isn't the class, it's never been the class. The class has always been about the chemically-augmented superhuman, nothing more, nothing less. Removing the restriction no more makes it not a 'real' juicer than you'd stop being a 'real human' if you were somehow born able to live for a thousand years and everyone else was still having a century be incredibly lucky.

power comes at a price in Rifts.
In my games...
You want a Juicer with no limited life span?
Ok.
You automatically suffer from
Hyper strength syndrome
Metabolic induced voracity
and one juicer psychosis (typically Hysterical aggressive reaction [roid rage]).
nothing comes without a price.

Ok it seems like you are saying you will screw the player no matter what, I am sure that is not what you are saying is it?

Yea but that is not the case in rifts, the seemingly only price is do you have the newest book. There are many more powerful creatures in rifts without any cost enforced in the game.

boxee wrote:Yea but that is not the case in rifts, the seemingly only price is do you have the newest book. There are many more powerful creatures in rifts without any cost enforced in the game.

and they are not human either...
Which in itself is a price.

Shinitenshi wrote:

boxee wrote:Ok it seems like you are saying you will screw the player no matter what, I am sure that is not what you are saying is it?

No he is saying that you don't get anything for free! You don't get all that power without something in return.

Plenty of characters get power without a price, where's that Ley Line Walker's crushing penalties for wanting to work magic? Don't see any. Power armor pilot? Nope, none for him either. Mystic? Looks pretty good to me. Sounds like a lot of stuff is free.

Or to put it another way: Superhuman SDC? Totally unimportant, means nothing to the Juicer. Superhuman reflexes and Speed? Again, worthless. Enhanced healing? Meaningless. Nope, the only thing important or is of any value to the character that it DIE in 5 years, 7 max. Wow, who'd have thought all of that was unimportant and death was what it was all about. While the Ley Line Walker is conjuring up MDC protection as needed, launching MD attacks personally, and with a host of other options available to him.

Afraid you just aren't going to sell me that out of all the classes around, many with vastly superior abilities (including aliens with similar or better abilities and a normal lifespan or longer) that the Juicer is so terrifyingly powerful that it simply MUST die or be neutered by becoming a borg or helpless human and retiring inside a few years. Or that all the bonuses it does carry are totally superfluous and the entire point of the class is to have a character that's got an imposed death sentence over a few years. I can't see how anyone buys into that. Might as well have a 'Death Sentence' optional feature to add onto any PC to provide 'color', doubt you'd see many taking it though. Certainly not myself, making a character with the intent of it dying in a few years of game time sounds pointless to me.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

boxee wrote:Yea but that is not the case in rifts, the seemingly only price is do you have the newest book. There are many more powerful creatures in rifts without any cost enforced in the game.

and they are not human either...
Which in itself is a price.

That's not really a price. Sure they may have social interaction issues and prejudices to deal with in some areas but they aren't going to without a doubt DIE in 6 years of game time so you have to make another to replace it while everyone else's characters are going along their merry way after a brief burial service (if that) for their comrade.

Nightmask wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

boxee wrote:Ok it seems like you are saying you will screw the player no matter what, I am sure that is not what you are saying is it?

No he is saying that you don't get anything for free! You don't get all that power without something in return.

Plenty of characters get power without a price, where's that Ley Line Walker's crushing penalties for wanting to work magic? Don't see any. Power armor pilot? Nope, none for him either. Mystic? Looks pretty good to me. Sounds like a lot of stuff is free.

Or to put it another way: Superhuman SDC? Totally unimportant, means nothing to the Juicer. Superhuman reflexes and Speed? Again, worthless. Enhanced healing? Meaningless. Nope, the only thing important or is of any value to the character that it DIE in 5 years, 7 max. Wow, who'd have thought all of that was unimportant and death was what it was all about. While the Ley Line Walker is conjuring up MDC protection as needed, launching MD attacks personally, and with a host of other options available to him.

Afraid you just aren't going to sell me that out of all the classes around, many with vastly superior abilities (including aliens with similar or better abilities and a normal lifespan or longer) that the Juicer is so terrifyingly powerful that it simply MUST die or be neutered by becoming a borg or helpless human and retiring inside a few years. Or that all the bonuses it does carry are totally superfluous and the entire point of the class is to have a character that's got an imposed death sentence over a few years. I can't see how anyone buys into that. Might as well have a 'Death Sentence' optional feature to add onto any PC to provide 'color', doubt you'd see many taking it though. Certainly not myself, making a character with the intent of it dying in a few years of game time sounds pointless to me.

Read the rules. A line walker can take MONTHS to learn a single spell. While the Juicer cavorts around, the line walker is out of play. This isn't much fun for the line walker's player, or worse, the juicer's player if he happens to like roleplaying with the line walker.

Nightmask wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

boxee wrote:Ok it seems like you are saying you will screw the player no matter what, I am sure that is not what you are saying is it?

No he is saying that you don't get anything for free! You don't get all that power without something in return.

Plenty of characters get power without a price, where's that Ley Line Walker's crushing penalties for wanting to work magic? Don't see any. Power armor pilot? Nope, none for him either. Mystic? Looks pretty good to me. Sounds like a lot of stuff is free.

Or to put it another way: Superhuman SDC? Totally unimportant, means nothing to the Juicer. Superhuman reflexes and Speed? Again, worthless. Enhanced healing? Meaningless. Nope, the only thing important or is of any value to the character that it DIE in 5 years, 7 max. Wow, who'd have thought all of that was unimportant and death was what it was all about. While the Ley Line Walker is conjuring up MDC protection as needed, launching MD attacks personally, and with a host of other options available to him.

Afraid you just aren't going to sell me that out of all the classes around, many with vastly superior abilities (including aliens with similar or better abilities and a normal lifespan or longer) that the Juicer is so terrifyingly powerful that it simply MUST die or be neutered by becoming a borg or helpless human and retiring inside a few years. Or that all the bonuses it does carry are totally superfluous and the entire point of the class is to have a character that's got an imposed death sentence over a few years. I can't see how anyone buys into that. Might as well have a 'Death Sentence' optional feature to add onto any PC to provide 'color', doubt you'd see many taking it though. Certainly not myself, making a character with the intent of it dying in a few years of game time sounds pointless to me.

funny thing is you are the only one screaming that death is not fair... (news flash death is the only thing that is fair it comes for all mortals the juicer just happens to get there quicker).
I offered up an alternative (that eliminated the limited life span) but I was accused of hampering the player because there was still a price for the power... (spoken like a true... well you know) admit it you want the power but not at a price.

Whats the price for a Mage?
Hated/feared by the largest collection of humans in NA.
Hunted by just about everything for your larger PPE pool.
a 1st level LLW is a tasty snack to a Stalker.
temptations from deevils, demons, other greater beings, for even more power.

Whats the downside to a PA pilot?
how awesome are you without that PA?

Mystic? see mage.

I notice you didnt mention the shifter... wonder why that is?

I strongly disagree with the other classes have a price for power.

Damian Magecraft wrote:funny thing is you are the only one screaming that death is not fair... (news flash death is the only thing that is fair it comes for all mortals the juicer just happens to get there quicker).
I offered up an alternative (that eliminated the limited life span) but I was accused of hampering the player because there was still a price for the power... (spoken like a true... well you know) admit it you want the power but not at a price.

Whats the price for a Mage?
Hated/feared by the largest collection of humans in NA.
Hunted by just about everything for your larger PPE pool.
a 1st level LLW is a tasty snack to a Stalker.
temptations from deevils, demons, other greater beings, for even more power.

Whats the downside to a PA pilot?
how awesome are you without that PA?

Mystic? see mage.

I notice you didnt mention the shifter... wonder why that is?

Because the class almost never comes to mind for me and frankly I didn't see a need to list a few dozen classes to make my point. Or are you trying to imply something there? Can't tell since unlike some I don't just assume negative intent about someone just because they like something I don't or suggest something that looks dead wrong to me is the end all and be all about something. Going to run down a list of character classes I didn't mention and try and imply failing to mention them must mean something terrible, then top it off with 'well see you didn't list all of those because you're really an 'insert derogatory gamer term here' so have no valid opinion to discuss.

Again out of your list of downsides they pale in comparison to certain death. Not might be killed, like all your suggestions (and a GM who was making that a certain kill no hope of resisting being captured or sacrificed the GM would be reviled as a Killer GM), but certain, no chance of escaping it without taking other decidedly unacceptable options and reverting to 1st level while everyone else is much higher.

Nightmask wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:funny thing is you are the only one screaming that death is not fair... (news flash death is the only thing that is fair it comes for all mortals the juicer just happens to get there quicker).
I offered up an alternative (that eliminated the limited life span) but I was accused of hampering the player because there was still a price for the power... (spoken like a true... well you know) admit it you want the power but not at a price.

Whats the price for a Mage?
Hated/feared by the largest collection of humans in NA.
Hunted by just about everything for your larger PPE pool.
a 1st level LLW is a tasty snack to a Stalker.
temptations from deevils, demons, other greater beings, for even more power.

Whats the downside to a PA pilot?
how awesome are you without that PA?

Mystic? see mage.

I notice you didnt mention the shifter... wonder why that is?

Because the class almost never comes to mind for me and frankly I didn't see a need to list a few dozen classes to make my point. Or are you trying to imply something there? Can't tell since unlike some I don't just assume negative intent about someone just because they like something I don't or suggest something that looks dead wrong to me is the end all and be all about something. Going to run down a list of character classes I didn't mention and try and imply failing to mention them must mean something terrible, then top it off with 'well see you didn't list all of those because you're really an 'insert derogatory gamer term here' so have no valid opinion to discuss.

Again out of your list of downsides they pale in comparison to certain death. Not might be killed, like all your suggestions (and a GM who was making that a certain kill no hope of resisting being captured or sacrificed the GM would be reviled as a Killer GM), but certain, no chance of escaping it without taking other decidedly unacceptable options and reverting to 1st level while everyone else is much higher.

reverting to 1st?
so you magically loose all your skills when you detox? Really? where does it say that?
I dont think you really understand how the process works at all.
All your arguments revolve around repeating how "unfair" it is to die or detox...
These are the arguments presented by "extreme" power gamers.
Try a new approach...
one that does not involve you repeating endlessly how unfair death is. You have flagellated that equine enough.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Because the class almost never comes to mind for me and frankly I didn't see a need to list a few dozen classes to make my point. Or are you trying to imply something there? Can't tell since unlike some I don't just assume negative intent about someone just because they like something I don't or suggest something that looks dead wrong to me is the end all and be all about something. Going to run down a list of character classes I didn't mention and try and imply failing to mention them must mean something terrible, then top it off with 'well see you didn't list all of those because you're really an 'insert derogatory gamer term here' so have no valid opinion to discuss.

Again out of your list of downsides they pale in comparison to certain death. Not might be killed, like all your suggestions (and a GM who was making that a certain kill no hope of resisting being captured or sacrificed the GM would be reviled as a Killer GM), but certain, no chance of escaping it without taking other decidedly unacceptable options and reverting to 1st level while everyone else is much higher.

reverting to 1st?
so you magically loose all your skills when you detox? Really? where does it say that?
I dont think you really understand how the process works at all.
All your arguments revolve around repeating how "unfair" it is to die or detox...
These are the arguments presented by "extreme" power gamers.
Try a new approach...
one that does not involve you repeating endlessly how unfair death is. You have flagellated that equine enough.

*laughs* Never gamed with me in your life and because I disagree with your point I 'must' be a power gamer because anyone who disagrees with you must be. No other option can exist like say simply not agreeing with you. Because only a really elitist sort would try and slap a power gaming label onto someone for thinking a particular character class shouldn't have a death sentence on it because the limited life span does NOTHING of value for the character and removing it does NOTHING to give the character any power. Zero. Zip. Not one iota more power or ability than the character had with the limited lifespan and you can't for a second honestly argue otherwise because if so then every other class is a twink power gamer class and ONLY the Juicer is proper and fair because only it dies before everyone else.

Given the Juicer has to switch classes if he survives detoxing yes he starts over at first level. No his existing skills don't magically vanish but unless they're part of his new class they're stuck where they are and many take a skill hit from seeing all of his physical abilities reduced.

In any case if you're going to toss out labels like power gamer rather than credibly discuss something because it's easier to simply write someone off rather than respect that they have an opinion that's as important as yours (and the disrespect showing you don't care to have your opinion taken seriously) really no point further responding to you. Haven't found anyone who so casually tosses such labels around particularly people they've never gamed with and have NO FOUNDATION for doing so as having worthwhile opinions. They're too obsessed with evaluating everything as being 'power gaming' or 'twink' or 'munchkin' to actually consider something rationally. Too fanatically devoted to finding such things which like any fanatic will find it anywhere and everywhere even where it doesn't exist, in fact they often find it where it doesn't exist.

Shinitenshi wrote:

boxee wrote:Yea but that is not the case in rifts, the seemingly only price is do you have the newest book. There are many more powerful creatures in rifts without any cost enforced in the game.

Wow you just don't get it. What does having new books have to do with anything. So you want something that's as powerful as a Juicer but you don't want to pay the price of being a Juicer, fine then play something else. To get the superhuman abilities of the Juicer you trade your life, no different than trading in body parts to get cybernetics.

Given the cyborg doesn't have a bomb in it to blow it up in 5-7 years yes it is different. So you're really not getting it. You cling to that lifespan limitation as if the entire Juicer class was a one-trick-pony and that trick is dying in a few years and the entire actual point of being a Juicer (augmented abilities) doesn't exist and instead it's all about being under a death sentence. If the character had been presented without that you complain insisting it have one because 'Juicers ought to die in 5 years!'? Probably not.

The entire point of the Juicer OCC isn't dying, it's about the abilities. If memory serves there's even a safer, weaker version of the process in Triax where you can select a limited set of enhancements with the trade off of having to detox and spend some down time before juicing again. So clearly there's precedent for non-dying Juicers with these scaled down versions, and no point to the early death and burnout for the complete Juicer.

If you want to just keep insisting that death's all a juicer is about and handwave away the actual motivations and purpose of being a Juicer well that's your right, but I disagree and my position is just as valid and just as right as yours. You're not my GM, I'm not yours (although I wouldn't impose a 'normal lifespan' juicer on you if you insisted on one with the death sentence), we're equals here and whatever is right or wrong at your table is just opinion here.

Its called power creep, how can you play rifts and not know about power creep?
Also if you look back in this topic I did mention that I would like to see more supersoldier options, and yes the juicer is an icon, but I have yet to see it actually played.

Balabanto wrote:Read the rules. A line walker can take MONTHS to learn a single spell.

Months to learn one spell? Which spell? What rule?

Once again, the Juicer's limited lifespan has nothing whatsoever to do with game or class balancing. The classes aren't balanced in any way, so that is an entire false branch of discussion.

The Juicer's limited lifespan is due solely to using a technological system that is imperfect. That is all. It is done to provide a post-apocalyptic feel to Rifts Earth, one where people do things that we today in our comfy homes would consider stupid for the primary reason that their lives are in a desperate condition.

------------------------------

Oh, I wanted to point out that while it is eminently logical that casters (Ley-Line Walkers, etc.) experience in-game issues regarding being one of the most suspect and hated of all professions in many locations in Rifts North America, that since there is nothing actually in the class about this as an issue, it isn't canon and therefore can't be right. GM's obviously can't extrapolate from the obvious and use it, no siree! (Sorry, I'm dragging in part of a different discussion. Go ahead, shoot me.)

you don't see the drawback of a cyborg as compared to the juicer?

clearly you've never seen the repair costs then. juicer gets automatic dodge; if the fight goes well they most likely won't even have to repair their body armor, let alone have to go find a cyber-doc to fix them up at an incredibly unpleasant price in credits (assuming they can even find one). if the 'borg gets hit by a single point of damage in a fight, that's taking a big chunk out of their earnings. if the 'borg gets hit a *lot*, then i can assure you they'll be wishing they were a juicer and could enjoy auto-dodge against every attack.

some other classes pay for their power by having less of it. and also by often having a huge target painted on their back.

some of the classes pay for their power in terms of time (like the operator, or the techno-wizard).

juicers pay for it in time also, but instead of paying gradually over the years, they pay it all at once after a few years. and it absolutely *is* an important aspect of juicers. take it away, and suddenly there's no need for them to be taking risks, or putting their life on the line. you may as well be a juicer accountant, or a juicer construction worker.

juicers gain a lot from the concept that they can get a lot of stuff done, and they're in a hurry to get it done because otherwise they will run out of time. they know they're gonna die anyways, and so they have no fear of death, because they're already dead anyways... their body just doesn't know it yet. take away last call, and you've lost the entire basis of the juicer culture.

Ok lets look at the cyborg thing, you say they have to pay for repairs right?

Ok what this really means is the money the group makes goes to fixing the cyborg, that sucks, or they say no and that starts in game group cobflicts. If everyone is playing borgs or has powered armor this is not a big deal, but when one play is taking away most of what the players are making it is annoying the rest of the group.

As for the juicer I think there are too many drawbacks and I would not play one. If I was in a game where the GM started the optional crap like giving insanities or piled on more penalties I would stop showing up.

If I played a crazy and the GM said well you body is burning up and you will die in 8 years. I would stop showing up.

If I was playing a leyline walker and the gm started the here have a spell, but it will takes months to learn it, I would stop showing up, unless the spell was alot higher level then I would have access to. Spell of legend.

those insanities weren't made up. they're actually in the rules, just not in the main book (they're in the same book as the one with all the juicer variants).

and actually, i don't necessarily see the group being responsible to pay the cyborg's costs. everyone has stuff to spend their money on. the cyborg needs money for repairs so he can do his job better, well the ley line walker needs money to learn new spells so they can do their own job better, the juicer needs money to have the right tools for the job when needed (likely to include various explosives, stealth gear, etc), and so forth. if the cyborg's repairs are a group expense, then why aren't the juicer's e-clips, armor, and new weapons? why aren't the ley line walker's new spells a group expense? why isn't the new computer and library/research database update for the rogue scholar a group expense, or the repairs on the operator's vehicle? what about the RPA pilot's mini-missiles he spent?

everyone has a use for money. unless that 'borg was specifically assigned to go out and get shot up rather than be cautious, it's his own expense. the juicer? well, the juicer can actually get away with just charging right into the thick of things. that's what juicers are good at.

even if, for some reason, the group you're in covers the repair costs (and again, i disagree that they should, since everyone has expensive things they could claim as a group expense), as you just pointed out there is going to be considerable complaining if the 'borg gets shot up all the time. in fact, it's quite likely that if it keeps happening, the 'borg is going to get the boot, and the group will find someone with lower upkeep. meaning the 'borg that doesn't pay in terms of the repair bill... is paying in terms of actions spent dodging, waiting for the right moment to move, inability to sneak around since they're a 2-ton engine of death, and so forth. or possibly is paying in terms of finding out that the group would rather liquidate his assets than continue to pay for them.