Rifts in need of a whole new system?

[Nightmask]

Boy your wrong

I respectfully disagree. There are time when a game system needs to advance. Cyberpunk, Traveller, Shadowrun, Star Wars have all done it, several times.

Cut and run usually means forwarding the timeline by a few years. It also means publishing a book like the GMs Guide with some updated stats. A win for the new players not purchasing all the books a win for the publisher creating new material. A win for the publisher reducing their inventory of backstock. And they can still sell old books on a pod style basis.

You're both wrong, and both right. For some the radical changes to the rules will kill any interest in things from that point when it seems like a ploy to just make the gamers purchase yet more books that many of them will just be repeating old stuff with new rules so you're just buying the same books with little to no actual new material worth purchasing. For others they have enough problems with the existing rules to desire and embrace a new system that comes out and won't mind abandoning the old stuff to embrace the new.

Myself I'm completely uninterested in spending tons of money on a completely new system to have to learn and one that makes all the money I've spent fairly worthless because what I've bought really isn't useful without possibly major revisions to fit. This is why I rejected 3e and 4e for AD&D, it was to me just an effort to put out the same game material with new rules and get more money out of me I could use somewhere else.

[TechnoGothic]

exactly Nightmask...

When it came to AD&D it was actually very good at what it did. Fantasy RPGs.
I cannot play Dark-Sun without it to be honest. Its not the same in another system.
I cannot play Ravenloft without it too. 3e/4e just isn't the same setting/system.

Very few RPG are ever really improved to be honest. The tweeks to the system or new system itself changes the "feel" or "mood" of an rpg itself.

[Chronicle]

Personally, the Rules seem ok. But that might be 20 years of managing them as a GM/Player.

It does get Clunky with multiple players and villians.

Combat is probably the hardest thing to work out with larger numbers. The key to quick Combat are Players and GM all knowing what the next move is. Attack (roll) Defend (Roll) and damage(Roll) usually pretty quick with 3-6 players + GM. Gets slower as it goes.

In the end, having a group who are familiar with the Rules as a core shouldn't have so much problems.

Having Players know their Character's bonus or have them writen on a front page in catagories based on their weapons is a huge help.

As far as new rules or streamlining........I think they are alright personally. Always room for tiny improvements and clearifcation of course. R:UE was a big step in that. What i mean is by putting the Rules in a seperate part of the book rather then mixing them up throughout the content.

[Rallan]

a new system is no good people stop playing when they have to recollect everything they already have.

white wolfs world of darkness the vampire the masqurade then be came revised(compatable atleast) then requiem. i never started requiem not after over 1000 dollars of books became obsolete

And there you're wrong. White Wolf's old "World Of Darkness" setting went through three editions (with some fairly significant rule changes) for each of its core games, and the fans kept buying them and the sales figures kept WW firmly ensconsed as the second biggest RPG company in the market for a good solid decade. Dungeons & Dragons has never not been the best-selling game in the RPG market, and it's been through something like six or seven editions if you count the "basic" D&D that used to run parallel to AD&D. The Warhammer wargames and the M:tG CCG have had more editions than you've had hot dinners, and both of them dwarf the entire tabletop RPG market. If you update a game and it remains popular, you generate a buttload of sales for new editions of the game's most important books (which generally dwarfs the sales you would've made from new and increasingly peripheral sourcebooks) and you have a chance to reposition your game in the market and attract new fans.

New editions are not automatically marketing poison. Of all the companies in the RPG biz that have managed to be successful for extended periods of time, Palladium Books is the only one that's stubbornly resisted updating its games. This can be a bit of an asset (they can enjoy more "long tail" sales because any given sourcebook is probably still going to be canon a decade later), but it can also mean missing a lot of opportunities.

[Rallan]

a new system is no good people stop playing when they have to recollect everything they already have.

white wolfs world of darkness the vampire the masqurade then be came revised(compatable atleast) then requiem. i never started requiem not after over 1000 dollars of books became obsolete

Well i think white wolf was already on the out with the system failing and popularity was already lost. As far as the last system that gave us a universal rule system amongst all they~re books i thought was needed a long time before, but was a step in the right direction imo.

Not to mention that the disgruntled fans who didn't buy into the new World of Darkness generally seemed more upset about the setting reboot rather than the major rules changes (which generally got fairly good reviews) or the fact that they needed to buy a bunch of books all over again (the really hardcore fans didn't just buy the new corebooks whenever a new edition of the old-WoD games came out, they bought everything all over again).

[Nightmask]

a new system is no good people stop playing when they have to recollect everything they already have.

white wolfs world of darkness the vampire the masqurade then be came revised(compatable atleast) then requiem. i never started requiem not after over 1000 dollars of books became obsolete

And there you're wrong. White Wolf's old "World Of Darkness" setting went through three editions (with some fairly significant rule changes) for each of its core games, and the fans kept buying them and the sales figures kept WW firmly ensconsed as the second biggest RPG company in the market for a good solid decade. Dungeons & Dragons has never not been the best-selling game in the RPG market, and it's been through something like six or seven editions if you count the "basic" D&D that used to run parallel to AD&D. The Warhammer wargames and the M:tG CCG have had more editions than you've had hot dinners, and both of them dwarf the entire tabletop RPG market. If you update a game and it remains popular, you generate a buttload of sales for new editions of the game's most important books (which generally dwarfs the sales you would've made from new and increasingly peripheral sourcebooks) and you have a chance to reposition your game in the market and attract new fans.

New editions are not automatically marketing poison. Of all the companies in the RPG biz that have managed to be successful for extended periods of time, Palladium Books is the only one that's stubbornly resisted updating its games. This can be a bit of an asset (they can enjoy more "long tail" sales because any given sourcebook is probably still going to be canon a decade later), but it can also mean missing a lot of opportunities.

Except he's not wrong, for many that is indeed a deal breaker when it comes to buying and enjoying a game. If something can manage to gain new players even as it drives away older gamers with the changes it may look like it succeeded just fine but in truth all it did was shift the pool of interested players it didn't actually do anything useful for the game as far as keeping and expanding its player pool. Not everyone's so hard core as to be a rabid zombie buying every new book no matter what they do or how often they restart things.

[Galroth]

Boy your wrong

I respectfully disagree. There are time when a game system needs to advance. Cyberpunk, Traveller, Shadowrun, Star Wars have all done it, several times.

Cut and run usually means forwarding the timeline by a few years. It also means publishing a book like the GMs Guide with some updated stats. A win for the new players not purchasing all the books a win for the publisher creating new material. A win for the publisher reducing their inventory of backstock. And they can still sell old books on a pod style basis.

You're both wrong, and both right. For some the radical changes to the rules will kill any interest in things from that point when it seems like a ploy to just make the gamers purchase yet more books that many of them will just be repeating old stuff with new rules so you're just buying the same books with little to no actual new material worth purchasing. For others they have enough problems with the existing rules to desire and embrace a new system that comes out and won't mind abandoning the old stuff to embrace the new.

Myself I'm completely uninterested in spending tons of money on a completely new system to have to learn and one that makes all the money I've spent fairly worthless because what I've bought really isn't useful without possibly major revisions to fit. This is why I rejected 3e and 4e for AD&D, it was to me just an effort to put out the same game material with new rules and get more money out of me I could use somewhere else.

Holy crap we agree on something!

Although I did buy and enjoy 3e, and I'd do it again if only to get rid of ThAC0 and level caps on demi-humans.

[Nightmask]

Holy crap we agree on something!

Few things are impossible other than getting a corporate CEO to not rob his employees and gouge the customers for a few extra million he'll never need and getting a politician to due his job rather than just loot for everything he can get while voting himself pay raises and vacations that take up nearly half the year while everyone else has to work.

Although I did buy and enjoy 3e, and I'd do it again if only to get rid of ThAC0 and level caps on demi-humans.

I purchased the core books for 3e and the Psionics book (poor Psionics, always treated as the black sheep shoved off by itself rather than as just as deserving of being in the book with the others) and no more. While they had some good ideas (the changes for magical item creation so you didn't have the incredibly high level requirements to make everything no matter how simple) they hadn't really made it better (psionics as noted being nerfed yet again and moreso in 3.5e and bards having class abilities tied to a skill so they unlike everyone else had to burn skill points every level to keep improving their bardic abilities). Haven't even bothered to glance at 4e now that it's even more radically different than 3e was to 2e. Makes me want to just sit down with my hardbound D&D book and play an old-school Elf just for the simplicity of things.

[Galroth]

Holy crap we agree on something!

Few things are impossible other than getting a corporate CEO to not rob his employees and gouge the customers for a few extra million he'll never need and getting a politician to due his job rather than just loot for everything he can get while voting himself pay raises and vacations that take up nearly half the year while everyone else has to work.

Although I did buy and enjoy 3e, and I'd do it again if only to get rid of ThAC0 and level caps on demi-humans.

I purchased the core books for 3e and the Psionics book (poor Psionics, always treated as the black sheep shoved off by itself rather than as just as deserving of being in the book with the others) and no more. While they had some good ideas (the changes for magical item creation so you didn't have the incredibly high level requirements to make everything no matter how simple) they hadn't really made it better (psionics as noted being nerfed yet again and moreso in 3.5e and bards having class abilities tied to a skill so they unlike everyone else had to burn skill points every level to keep improving their bardic abilities). Haven't even bothered to glance at 4e now that it's even more radically different than 3e was to 2e. Makes me want to just sit down with my hardbound D&D book and play an old-school Elf just for the simplicity of things.

I got roped into a 4e game. It was one of the most painful games of my life, it's soooo bland.

Also, yeah I miss Psionics being actually different. The way they are written in 3e they might as well be sorcerers.

[Nightmask]

I purchased the core books for 3e and the Psionics book (poor Psionics, always treated as the black sheep shoved off by itself rather than as just as deserving of being in the book with the others) and no more. While they had some good ideas (the changes for magical item creation so you didn't have the incredibly high level requirements to make everything no matter how simple) they hadn't really made it better (psionics as noted being nerfed yet again and moreso in 3.5e and bards having class abilities tied to a skill so they unlike everyone else had to burn skill points every level to keep improving their bardic abilities). Haven't even bothered to glance at 4e now that it's even more radically different than 3e was to 2e. Makes me want to just sit down with my hardbound D&D book and play an old-school Elf just for the simplicity of things.

I got roped into a 4e game. It was one of the most painful games of my life, it's soooo bland.

Also, yeah I miss Psionics being actually different. The way they are written in 3e they might as well be sorcerers.

Well it wasn't that they were stripped of their differences (being considered canonically magic in the Forgotten Realms) but the powers available to the psionicist were weak and inferior compared to magic spells, they added some funky ideas for psionic items, and in 3.5 added that stupid 'psionic focus' you had to have and waste time creating to use most of the psionic feats even when they were identical to a mage feat that had no restrictions on use. Just a bunch of giving the finger to the fans of psionics tossing them a nerfed and neutered class and tell them 'see there you go we gave you what you wanted happy now?'. Some act like they aren't valid in a fantasy setting and want to force their dislike onto the fans of it, much like that head of the BBC who delayed the return of Dr. Who by more than a year because they hated the series and proudly told the fans so. Frankly it's a wonder a rabid fan didn't stalk and work them over for that.

[Shark_Force]

actually, a lot of people like the 3.5 psionic rules for D&D. they're much more balanced than spellcasting, certainly, and allow a lot more flexibility in what you cast than the magic rules.

and the "psionics is different" ruleset is still listed as an option, if that's what floats your boat. the main problem is that it really makes it a lot harder to DM, in general... which is not necessarily a problem for every group, but it's quite easy to make psionics not count as a form of magic.

(and in any case, it's certainly not weak. perhaps not as overpowered as magic is in the setting, but then apart from abusing rules loopholes (of which there are some really bad ones) i don't think the 2e psionics rules were generally more powerful than 2e magic either. certainly, 3.x psionics is much more powerful than 3.x melee, at least)

all of which is beside the point... i'd say far more fans seem to have moved on to 3rd edition than did not. certainly there are some who did not (i have a brother who basically steals ideas he likes from the 3.x rules and adds them into his games, for example), but many did. making a new rule set, so long as it really is an upgrade to a cleaner, smoother system, is not necessarily a bad thing. to me, i don't know that the rules would need to change so drastically as to invalidate all the previous material, in any case, for palladium. mostly just needs to be written more clearly, a few rules added, stuff tweaked here and there, and some sub-systems getting a revamp (skills, for example. i hate how a skilled mechanic will probably fail miserably at a standard difficulty task half the time when starting out). but, it's all somewhat of a moot point... i doubt we'll see it happen. maybe if we're still playing 20 years from now, kevin will come out with a new edition again.

[Nether]

dnd 3e (3.5) was my favorite of the systems and 4e is absolutely shat. I would say they have made good forward progression until 4e, always a improved system.

But i~m not saying that PB needs to be revising the system every 3 years or so, but say once every 10 years i would be more than willing to fork out for a updated game version, and updated ported over source materiel as well which would be much quicker to do.

Reasons for that is because PB is still a company that needs to make profit. I would support them in this endeavor just like I and so many other gamers do for other game systems. Now players are worried about being taken for granted and forced to buy stuff they don't need to play, ie the miniatures in that other system... which should have never been necessary as they were.

PB has had Rifts out for how many years? 20+? And there has never been a new system, and so many of us have been asking for it.

Is it so bad that people would begrudge PB for putting out a new system after 20 years? People are willing to donate money to support them in they're time of failure, so would it be so bad to support them in a new system that cleans up alot of the issues with the current one?

One thing i am confident in with KS at the helm is he won't screw us over with new systems every year or so, he won't drastically change a system so much so that it alienates everyone and , and i am guessing that is one of his prime reasons for why he keeps on refusing to put out another system is because of how some will view it as invalidating current materiel. But again, they are a company and like so many things, you can improve the status quo, aka new system. With KS my concern is if he does put out a new system, he won't go quit far enough in a updated system to address current issues enough.

I know trying to bring in new players to Rifts that they're main concern is the rule system and i have far more people that want to play in my Rifts Hero conversion game than in my core Rifts game.

For those that have been playing Rifts for such a long time and are fine with the system, well just because you have spent the time learning a convoluted system over many years, doesn't make it a good system nor very easy for new gamers to learn.

Lastly to say, the system was a great system compared to what was out there back in the day, but everyone else has been improving they're systems which imo have surpassed the Palladium system and left it in the dust.

[CS John]

To OP, I think a whole re-write of the rules was needed back when you started playing IMO.

As far as alienating long-time fans, nonsense. I'd re-write the rules and try to appeal to the broadest audience. Old players still have TONS of books to use if they don't want to convert to new cleaned up rules, but you'd have to be nuts to not want to anyway.

Epic fantasy is big right now, and Rifts can deliver in spades, it's the best setting there is I believe. But with this mess of a system it's got going, why bother?

[TechnoGothic]

To OP, I think a whole re-write of the rules was needed back when you started playing IMO.

As far as alienating long-time fans, nonsense. I'd re-write the rules and try to appeal to the broadest audience. Old players still have TONS of books to use if they don't want to convert to new cleaned up rules, but you'd have to be nuts to not want to anyway.

Epic fantasy is big right now, and Rifts can deliver in spades, it's the best setting there is I believe. But with this mess of a system it's got going, why bother?

The System is fine.

I keep hearing how bad the system is from people. But when you explain to them the system, it is like they didn't even bother to read the rules before deciding they suck. I know alot of ppl on RPGnet never read the rules at all, they just saw a system different from D&D3x and didnt read any rules, but tried to play RIFTS without knowing jack about the system to begin with.

PB's system rules are actually pretty simple when you break them down.
simple without being boring.

I get excited when building characters for Rifts, HU2, etc... Its fun, may take awhile, but fun.
In other settings, i just get bored making a character. Ohh +1 here, a +2 there. AC whatever... yawn. Sleepy now. Is this my Knight character or that ahh ... who cares they look the same. Hey I killed him, i take his stuff, what the XP for killing him ?

RPGs should be about Passion IMHO.
While i liked M&M2e the setting, the system was boring for me to use.
While I liked Iron Heroes the setting, the D20 system it was placed in was just boring to me in use. Let alone to make characters with.

[Noon]

Any game that has this as a core makes griefing in the game by gm's much more common.

It's glib of me, but who in the group generally buys the most books?

The GM's. The ones who like this arrangement where they pretty much do as they please with their little flock are the ones who keep buying books that bolster their little regime.

Palladium could switch to another audience, but I suspect KS plays that way as well - everythings fine if you go with the flow, but god forbid any dissenting thought should try and rear itself through mechanics use.

[Tiree]

I have been playing and running Rifts, Robotech, Heroes Unlimited, and TMNT for nearly 25 years (god has it really been that long). I love Palladium, it's a great setting.

I used to love the grit and detail of knowing what skills there were. More the better, give me lots more options, etc. I want to have a different class that is slightly different than the next, etc.

But times have changed, my priorities have changed. And most of all my time is limited. I love the Robotech Quick Character Creation rules just for my limited time. But it didn't go far enough. I am a proponent of reducing the number of skills, but introducing specialties or sub categories of skills. But most of all the game needs a tuneup that can only be done by going through the rules again. Who needs to do this? Well sadly it can't be Kevin - he's already the bottlekneck to the company. It needs to be a freelancer or a new staff member to hold and carry the torch.

So if we are to get a new system - it would be at a detriment to PB in whole, or would be so slow that another 2 decades before it is finished.

[SkyeFyre]

Personally, I just think it needs a second set of eyes (or three or four) to consolidated and clarify all the rules as presented and fill in gaps as they are made. Just release it as a rule compendium. I like the rules as they are.

[Chronicle]

Our main problem is not System. Its the fact that people are focusing more on Video games. While YES. Video games have all the math done automatically, you have the problem of a railroaded adventure. Very linier and boring after the first couple of plays.

Rifts system is good. Streamlining might help it go faster. Making new rules and changing the system all together will invariably make all the previous (and thats lots of them ) books require rewrites.

Streamlining might be the way to go in order to smooth them out, but do not stray from the core and keep the current books valid.

[Warmaster40k]

Okay, The Answer to this question is a loud resounding Yes and at the same time NO.

and here is why, The game has never scaled well, at all. But at this point people who buy palladium products took their books realised the system doesnt work for a majority things and so they they had a nice long chat with it, and came up with the fixes to make it work. I for example yelled at it untill my voice went hoarse and I had enough pages that I had a working system, and scaling factor.

And why wont it happen, because Kevin is not going to do that, I have talked to him about it, that the equipment set up doesnt really work, that none of the vehicle weapons do enough damage that tech items are wonky and the Magic system does not scale wiht the setting. I was told that, that was not an issue that every thing was made with a coolness factor, in other words they need a real editing process and some help with the lay out, as chapters would be a nice start. But that would take a very talented group of proffessional people and a large sum of cash to buy the company lock stock and barrrel from Kevin. Kevin gets to retire and even take a role of Creative Chief Director, and he gets to do what hes good at, writing some old school stuff.

BTW NWoD is good, OWoD just broke new ground and opened a frontier of possibility it was also an exceptionally juvenile setting, but thats a rant for anouther time. Each line had its high and low points. NWoD has Hunter, Changeling and Gheist, while OWoD had Wraith and Demon.

[Nether]

I would be ok if they streamlined and fixed up some issues in the current system if they put out a full rule system book revision. RUE should have been that but isn't.

So they would need to release a new "Palladium Rule Book" that was cleaned up and organized.

I would also like to see some clear rules for RCCs > PCC's > OCC's. Give us a general rule to how it works and what stacks, and what doesn't or just supercedes. This includes multiple OCC's which i think is kind of cheese, as it would just take to long to change into other OCCs, which would just shelve the character.

Further prior, i would like to see basic rules for stacking. What stacks and what doesn't in general for bonuses. Categories of bonuses would be good, and this way you can keep everything offering this bonus or that, but it won't always stack on keeping the numbers closer togather and in line. This way you don't have the rules lawyer that builds solely around what gives him the best numbers and ignores a concept.

I would like to see some opposed rolls ability, ie my houserules is that you just compare who beat thier skill percentage by the most is the winner and 100% isn't the cap, it just keeps going which also shows the uber or supernaturally skilled.

I would like to see some type of weapon range updates ext as the current ones i just find so baffling to who did the math on them. Sorry KS, but your name is stamped on most of it. I mean really, the Devestator which is 50 frickin feet tall has a main gun that only does 1d6x10??? Maybe 1d6x100 might make more sense. This is also just one of sooo many PA and vehicle weapons that make nooo sense. We have to modify everything as we play as no one is scared of half the main tanks main guns out there. Even small arms need a bit of adjustment for damages though they tend to be ok.. kinda. Railguns?? I mean now some are updating but gee.

Perception rules just don't work that well. You have multiple skills that are perception based ie stealth ext and it doesn't really function against the perception rules.

What is with no PP bonus to shooting? In the RUE KS gave us the sidenote sections which have overall only given me alot more respect for the the guy, but he isn't good at the numbers and it shows. No slight KS, just my observation. He talks about how important the cinematics of the game are but then he goes and worries about trying to create as realistic real life mechanics to shooting which i think are wrong anyway as a persons PP would most definately assist (as it includes hand-eye coord) and it's not just pure training. Also in most cases we aren't lobbing sniper rounds a mile down range where we have to account for crosswinds, drop, and weather factors. Even if we are, just gloss it over as not to complicate it. Some jerk is shooting at me? I whip around doing ninja flips and summersaults to avoid it. Let the John Woo action back into the game mechanics.
I'm sure this has been mentioned many times and comes down to which side of the fence you sit on, but really this is a cinematic game.

Just a few of the things that are bothering and really need some cleaning.

[Nether]

Our main problem is not System. Its the fact that people are focusing more on Video games. While YES. Video games have all the math done automatically, you have the problem of a railroaded adventure. Very linier and boring after the first couple of plays.

Rifts system is good. Streamlining might help it go faster. Making new rules and changing the system all together will invariably make all the previous (and thats lots of them ) books require rewrites.

Streamlining might be the way to go in order to smooth them out, but do not stray from the core and keep the current books valid.

Well i have to disagree that the system in current is good, and i think it is a big part of the problem.

As for video games, your right. Thats because you can play a video game ie. MMOs whenever you have time and feel like it vs having to coordinate with everyone in your group to see what days are good.

I most definately feel that roleplaying pen and paper games are slowly but surely on the out especially now that video games like mmo's are here.

The only saving grace to equally compete in my eyes is online roleplaying tools. Just like what Dnd 4e has done but not quite enough. You need to offer online tools that allow a player / gm to come into game sight and find what gm's are running games and sign up to be a player to jump in. By having players and gm's be online allows them to create a pool or resources so when you feel like gaming you can, just like a video game.

You also need character generation tools for online with visualization, weapon / equip / PA / vehicle visualization tools and stats, as well as adventure tools that allow all players to see the same map, gm's to make changes or add things here and there so all can interact and are on the same page, and online dice tools for any action you need to roll.

These type of tools could really bring back players from games / mmo's and offer a new option to the younger generation. MMO's all have "roleplaying" servers, and you could easily get a chunk of them with superior roleplaying ability.

[Noon]

But back to your observations on lack of Machiavellian plots or mechanics that encourage plot & character development. That's not the responsibility of Rifts or Palladium's lines. They give you the building blocks of this world/Megaverse.

Your just agreeing with Rallan. As you say, they focus on delivering building blocks. Not stories.

[Dunia]

Personally, the Rules seem ok. But that might be 20 years of managing them as a GM/Player.

It does get Clunky with multiple players and villians.

Combat is probably the hardest thing to work out with larger numbers. The key to quick Combat are Players and GM all knowing what the next move is. Attack (roll) Defend (Roll) and damage(Roll) usually pretty quick with 3-6 players + GM. Gets slower as it goes.

In the end, having a group who are familiar with the Rules as a core shouldn't have so much problems.

Having Players know their Character's bonus or have them writen on a front page in catagories based on their weapons is a huge help.

As far as new rules or streamlining........I think they are alright personally. Always room for tiny improvements and clearifcation of course. R:UE was a big step in that. What i mean is by putting the Rules in a seperate part of the book rather then mixing them up throughout the content.

We have like 6 different Roleplaying clubs where I live and all of them have at least 20+ members and one of them can boast with having 80+ members. Not one of those clubs like Palladium Books' games and they shun RIFTS as it is an impractical system for larger groups where combats take overhand and too much time for the time set to play the session.
I have played alot of Swedish, english and american roleplaying systems in the 10 years I have played RP, and I have to say that RIFTS is by far the one that is impractical for new players to play, and esprcially if you have 5+ players and GM.
This is also the reason why none of the game stores in this city decides to sell it and I have only learned of ONE (1) store in the entire kingdom of Sweden that actually retails it, but only if a customer orders a book and pays in advance. When I asked them why they did not have it in store, they just replied that PB does not sell and it is considered a doomed game/game producer. They rather take in other games that actually sell.

[maasenstodt]

Very few RPG are ever really improved to be honest. The tweeks to the system or new system itself changes the "feel" or "mood" of an rpg itself.

Just look at what happened to Palladium Fantasy!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

When I asked them why they did not have it in store, they just replied that PB does not sell and it is considered a doomed game/game producer. They rather take in other games that actually sell.

I love this, its just too much, someone dont tell KS that , I dont think he couldnt handle it.

[keir451]

When I asked them why they did not have it in store, they just replied that PB does not sell and it is considered a doomed game/game producer. They rather take in other games that actually sell.

I love this, its just too much, someone dont tell KS that , I dont think he couldnt handle it.

I know what you both mean, I used to be able to wlak into a game store and pick up A rifts or Palldium product right off the shekves (that's how I found Macross 2 back when I was in the Navy) even when I was in another country back in the 90's (namely Japan, & Singapore) I was able to walk into the local gaming shop and see new Palladium products on their shelves. That doesn't happen today, today I need to order the book from the publisher, wait for it to come in, find out it's not in stock, attempt to reorder or buy online (which I do not like to do). By finding the books in the game store I used to be able to meet other Rifts gamers and get together, these days I'm lucky if I find even 1 person who plays Rifts, much less finding new books on the shelves.
I LOVE playinf Rifts, but more and more often I find mayself appreciating the openess , flexibility and simplicity of D&D 3e. I only need three books to start play and the rest is my imagination.

[Athos]

I know what you mean that it is getting harder and harder to find people who sell palladium products, I have been ordering directly from palladium recently since there are no game stores in my area that carry their products.

Would like to find a game store in my area, or within a half hour/hour at least, that sells palladium products, seems like a good thing to have on palladium's website... not sure why they don't let you know where their products are sold.

Finding games, even online, is difficult these days for Rifts. I don't want to say it is a dying game just yet, like 3.5 which I also like, because palladium still supports Rifts, but it is harder and harder to find people that play it.

I mean I really like the setting, but I have been disappointed in just about every book I have bought lately with the exception of Dyval, I like the idea of the minion war and want to run a campaign with it as the focus, and the Dyval book is great for that. Not sure what the solution is or how I can contribute to getting Rifts to be more popular/more common place, but am open to suggestions, if anyone has gotten Rifts going in their local area, would be interested to hear how they did it.

In the meantime, guess I will just have to keep plugging away online. I play on friday nights and GM on sundays. Its not as fun online as table top, but it beats nothing.

[Athos]

I know what you mean that it is getting harder and harder to find people who sell palladium products, I have been ordering directly from palladium recently since there are no game stores in my area that carry their products.

Would like to find a game store in my area, or within a half hour/hour at least, that sells palladium products, seems like a good thing to have on palladium's website... not sure why they don't let you know where their products are sold.

Finding games, even online, is difficult these days for Rifts. I don't want to say it is a dying game just yet, like 3.5 which I also like, because palladium still supports Rifts, but it is harder and harder to find people that play it.

I mean I really like the setting, but I have been disappointed in just about every book I have bought lately with the exception of Dyval, I like the idea of the minion war and want to run a campaign with it as the focus, and the Dyval book is great for that. Not sure what the solution is or how I can contribute to getting Rifts to be more popular/more common place, but am open to suggestions, if anyone has gotten Rifts going in their local area, would be interested to hear how they did it.

In the meantime, guess I will just have to keep plugging away online. I play on friday nights and GM on sundays. Its not as fun online as table top, but it beats nothing.

Why not just try and start a pickup game at your local game shop? I've recently been able to pick up 4 new players for a PFRPG game I play in and they'll transition over into a Rifts game I'm running after that. You get 4 players who are not aware of the game and world and get them hooked they'll eventually pick up a book or 2, and slowly you have a new fan base growing. Of course, this puts all the pressure on you to run an awesome game experience to draw new players in.

Brilliant idea, where is my local game shop that sells Palladium products? I don't think a store that doesn't sell the product is going to want you taking up their space with stuff you bought elsewhere, so if you will just let me know where I can go and start the game, I am in. Oh, you don't know either? Well then...

[DhAkael]

It's not just the system... which I actually have no problems at all "modding" as needed to get my games going.
Problem is; the quality of the books (particularly artwork) has been scatter shot and below par with everything else out on the market recently. I mean, out of the last 10 books in ANY of the PB line, I've bought...oh... 3.
Maybe.
Their Robotech line is a joke ("Manga size? Really?"), the Vampire reboots -yawn- (no offense to the writers of said books but I am sick to DEATH of Vampires and Werewolves and Angels and all the urban horror fantasy creatures), and well... the whole "Coalition winz 4-evah!!!" meta-plotzing.

As for the Phaseworld stuff?
Fleets of Three-galaxies was...well...decent, but it had NOTHING for players; it was a strictly GM only toybox.
Dimensional Outbreak was the only one that had material for everyone. No toys for the players but LOTS of stuff on Center, which was GREAT.
And Thundercloud Galaxy? Again; nothing for players really, just more GM stuff. Note: I did actually BUY the last three listed books, but kinda disapointed I couldn't give my players much of anything from 2 of 'em.

TRYING to get any consumer input to Kevin Siembiada, unless it is sychophantic, is neigh impossible.
And don't get me started on what happens to the poor free-lancers material prior to print. *shudder*

All in all, if Palladium WANTS to survive, it really needs more of an administrative restructering, quality control and better PR to both consumers AND merchants.

P.S.; that means KS actually going and reading the forums instead of hidng away and trying to ignore the people who count...the people who BUY his stuff and let their thoughts be known on the forums.

[DhAkael]

I disagree with the artwork statement, I like Bradshaw, Mumah, Apollo, Amy, lawn,Dudley, Walton and even Kent's artwork (Kent does good fantasy and busts, not so great on tech though.)

It's the TECH aspect of the artwork that really needs to be worked on. The beasties are all okay, but they really need to focus more on the technology art; spines and flanges and heavy contrast B&W "washes" just won't cut it for the technophiles out here.

[Nether]

I agree with the last part DhAkael, Kevin needs to really read what's being said by the folks that own and buy their stuff. (this includes the PR statement Alex's sarcastic responses on these boards and others is just foolish and makes Kevin and others look like a group of teens)
I disagree with the artwork statement, I like Bradshaw, Mumah, Apollo, Amy, lawn,Dudley, Walton and even Kent's artwork (Kent does good fantasy and busts, not so great on tech though.)

Ya i have to completely agree with the big wigs need to actually review the boards a bit instead of hiding. They hide because people will flame at them, or critisize them for this or that. But you know, when you are the upper management of a company you should have a thick skin already and not cry at a little verbal slander. Nor should you just ignore your consumer base by not even giving attention to say forum boards because you don't want to deal with the criticism.

You know, for alot of other game companies out there, they're upper management pays attention to they're forum boards and while much that is said is in heat of the moment or based on personal preferrence, there is alot of good solid info/problems/solutions that are talked about that could go a long way to helping them clean the game system up, or address issues they are having.

In the case of PB, they just choose to comletely ignore this. Sure they have a couple threads here about we want your feedback for saving the company ext ext, but how long have those threads been there and still nothing has ever come from that feedback?

How long has the company been in "Dire straights" and they are barely surviving? That was how many years ago? I am sure they are doing ok now, and aren't in the predicament they were when the big incident happened. I find it insulting that they keep playing the "oh poor me" card long after it happened, and are still praying on its dedicated consumer base that has stuck with them thru thier history.

Then there is the weekly updates. KS tells always tells us how "bad luck, bad luck, bad luck" and weekly sales are doing ok but "excuse, excuse, excuse" is the problem. I know people that just happen to have bad things happen to them all the time, and it is never "they're" fault, its the worlds as it is always out to get them. I think PB needs to grow up, and own up. Start acting like a business that knows deadlines matter, that they're consumer base matters as well as they're input, that product eventually needs to be updated to compete with competition and address the current times. Also get rid of the begging threads that just make the company look weak and unorganized. If you are going to give us weekly updates or even monthly, then let us know what is at the press, give us small excerts to keep us excited, and focus only on talking about the game company.

This last part is slightly off topic, but it touches upon why a new improved system is so vital, as newer system and updating the books could give a huge boost financially and tells all the retailers out there that you have a new improved product to put on your shelves instead of the old dead system they all view it in current. You know its frustrating to love and enjoy a setting/product like Rifts, but only to see that the owners just don't care what the consumers think and let it go.

So come on PB, give us fans/consumers some love and give us the odd post from the big man himself that shows he is listening to his fan base. Like a response of "At current, is there any thought about a new system for PB or Rifts?, and if not what are your thoughts on that? (they why's or why nots)"

My thread and posts have alot of critisism about PB, but it's not hate mail, it is because i actually really love some of the products they are offering (Rifts) but i can see they need ALOT of improvement as a company and hope maybe my voice can help offer solutions to do so.

[Nether]

I disagree with the artwork statement, I like Bradshaw, Mumah, Apollo, Amy, lawn,Dudley, Walton and even Kent's artwork (Kent does good fantasy and busts, not so great on tech though.)

It's the TECH aspect of the artwork that really needs to be worked on. The beasties are all okay, but they really need to focus more on the technology art; spines and flanges and heavy contrast B&W "washes" just won't cut it for the technophiles out here.

Minus Kent Burls I really don't see that at all. I liked Bradshaw and mumahs art in Fleets, the looks were both sleek (Mumah) and gritty (Bradshaw). B&W art work is not that uncommon in Rp books, CoC, AFMbE have B&W art work in all their books.

There is the odd gem of artwork, but in most cases the rest of the artwork is mediocre at best. Then you have that shaded artwork that has seem to have become the bread and butter of artwork thru all the books in these last few years that looks like total crap. You compare any of the books in the last 4 years to some of the originals like RMB and you will find that the latter stuff just doesn't compare. I want quality art and concepts in the books which i'm willing to pay extra for, not the terrible shaded stuff i have been seeing.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've always enjoyed the clean and simple style that epitomizes Kevin Long's art.

I enjoy it as well. He is a damn good artist and his art helped paint the image of rifts.

Yup.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I've always enjoyed the clean and simple style that epitomizes Kevin Long's art.

yup, his art set the visions of rifts for me

[Nether]

I disagree with the artwork statement, I like Bradshaw, Mumah, Apollo, Amy, lawn,Dudley, Walton and even Kent's artwork (Kent does good fantasy and busts, not so great on tech though.)

It's the TECH aspect of the artwork that really needs to be worked on. The beasties are all okay, but they really need to focus more on the technology art; spines and flanges and heavy contrast B&W "washes" just won't cut it for the technophiles out here.

Minus Kent Burls I really don't see that at all. I liked Bradshaw and mumahs art in Fleets, the looks were both sleek (Mumah) and gritty (Bradshaw). B&W art work is not that uncommon in Rp books, CoC, AFMbE have B&W art work in all their books.

There is the odd gem of artwork, but in most cases the rest of the artwork is mediocre at best. Then you have that shaded artwork that has seem to have become the bread and butter of artwork thru all the books in these last few years that looks like total crap. You compare any of the books in the last 4 years to some of the originals like RMB and you will find that the latter stuff just doesn't compare. I want quality art and concepts in the books which i'm willing to pay extra for, not the terrible shaded stuff i have been seeing.

I have to disagree with you on that again, I don't see that, Longs art work next to Apollos is well, campy at best (And I like Longs artwork). digital Shading is pretty common now a days in both B&W and Color artwrok by any company not just pally. This seems more like a statement made of resentment toward artist using new technology then a statement about quality. I see no decline in the art work because of digital shading.

Not sure how you made that leap of logic. So i will just inform you that i think those art look terrible. That is it. Compare those to Ramon Perez pics and hands down i'm all for Ramon. I love his art.

Is it kevin long who does the shaded peaces?

I have nothing against the artists, but i'm being blunt when i say i don't find the shaded art remotely comparable to clean style simular to Ramon. Plenty of great artists ca do it.

[Nether]

Perez is my fav artist for Rifts. Long is forever linked in my mind to Robotech and never really liked his art for Rifts all that much.

BTW Nether, your thread is now officially hijacked!

/sticks out tongue.

Kevin is a awesome artist, and i'm thinking he is not the one that does the art i hate so much.

As for you Sally, seems like your letting your mom implants push you out of line again, so here drink your psi-cola and have a animal cracker and the world will improve.

PS. don't kill any more people for 20 minutes, all i'm asking is 20 minutes!

[Rallan]

Perez is my fav artist for Rifts. Long is forever linked in my mind to Robotech and never really liked his art for Rifts all that much.

BTW Nether, your thread is now officially hijacked!

/sticks out tongue.

Kevin is a awesome artist, and i'm thinking he is not the one that does the art i hate so much.

Wayne Breaux perhaps? His inking was never crash hot.

[Nether]

Perez is my fav artist for Rifts. Long is forever linked in my mind to Robotech and never really liked his art for Rifts all that much.

BTW Nether, your thread is now officially hijacked!

/sticks out tongue.

Kevin is a awesome artist, and i'm thinking he is not the one that does the art i hate so much.

Wayne Breaux perhaps? His inking was never crash hot.

Pg 11 / 13 of D-bees of NA has the shaded stuff i can't stand and think brings the books quality and imagery down alot. I don't know who that is but uhg, to me it just shows that PB has really dropped the budget for art in books of the last few years.

As for Breaux, i consider him middle of the road. I'm not big on his shaded stuff, and if he just avoided doing the shaded altogather it would be alot better. He has some good picks here and there, but they are the non shaded stuff usually.

As for KL, ya he has good clean art and can't say anything bad about that guy.

[mumah]

The artwork you're citing is produced by Kent Burles, who has a wonderfully ambient, emotive style that I really enjoy.

[Warmaster40k]

Very few RPG are ever really improved to be honest. The tweeks to the system or new system itself changes the "feel" or "mood" of an rpg itself.

Just look at what happened to Palladium Fantasy!

2nd Edition revised teh setting and brought the rules to reflect the current megaverse at the time, then fired the only person in the company who had done any work for teh Setting "Cough" Bill "Cough" Coffin. And if we look at the cool factor of the books, the ones we really liked were dont by "Not" Kevin Siembeda, he did a fantastic job with Fantasy, but sense we lost Eric, CJ, and Bill, the company is not doing too well. We see one or two books a year maybe, and are asked for donations. Cancer research gets donations, not the company who I play house and pretend time with, they want ot be saved, then dont ask for donations, start selling Stock, let the fans have some real stake in the company. that way we can vote that yes, now you have to hirer a real editor, and you have to start making the books, in a timely manner, that changes have to be made, that an apology has to be made to Bill, so he can finish Land of the Damned and the pre-orders for crap that was mentioned 15 years ago is removed from the online store, sorry kevin it makes you look like a jack ass when you got Vapor Ware older than Duke Nukem Forever on the store page, and Duke Nukem Forever actually got released.

Im talking about Mechanoid Space, here is a hint, if its not off to the printers, dont offer pre-orders.

[Chronicle]

personally when PFRPG aligned itself with the rest of the megaversal system it actually made it feel alot more awsome to me.

[keir451]

I agree with the last part DhAkael, Kevin needs to really read what's being said by the folks that own and buy their stuff. (this includes the PR statement Alex's sarcastic responses on these boards and others is just foolish and makes Kevin and others look like a group of teens)
I disagree with the artwork statement, I like Bradshaw, Mumah, Apollo, Amy, lawn,Dudley, Walton and even Kent's artwork (Kent does good fantasy and busts, not so great on tech though.)

Ya i have to completely agree with the big wigs need to actually review the boards a bit instead of hiding. They hide because people will flame at them, or critisize them for this or that. But you know, when you are the upper management of a company you should have a thick skin already and not cry at a little verbal slander. Nor should you just ignore your consumer base by not even giving attention to say forum boards because you don't want to deal with the criticism.

You know, for alot of other game companies out there, they're upper management pays attention to they're forum boards and while much that is said is in heat of the moment or based on personal preferrence, there is alot of good solid info/problems/solutions that are talked about that could go a long way to helping them clean the game system up, or address issues they are having.
In the case of PB, they just choose to comletely ignore this. Sure they have a couple threads here about we want your feedback for saving the company ext ext, but how long have those threads been there and still nothing has ever come from that feedback?

How long has the company been in "Dire straights" and they are barely surviving? That was how many years ago? I am sure they are doing ok now, and aren't in the predicament they were when the big incident happened. I find it insulting that they keep playing the "oh poor me" card long after it happened, and are still praying on its dedicated consumer base that has stuck with them thru thier history.

Then there is the weekly updates. KS tells always tells us how "bad luck, bad luck, bad luck" and weekly sales are doing ok but "excuse, excuse, excuse" is the problem. I know people that just happen to have bad things happen to them all the time, and it is never "they're" fault, its the worlds as it is always out to get them. I think PB needs to grow up, and own up. Start acting like a business that knows deadlines matter, that they're consumer base matters as well as they're input, that product eventually needs to be updated to compete with competition and address the current times. Also get rid of the begging threads that just make the company look weak and unorganized. If you are going to give us weekly updates or even monthly, then let us know what is at the press, give us small excerts to keep us excited, and focus only on talking about the game company.

This last part is slightly off topic, but it touches upon why a new improved system is so vital, as newer system and updating the books could give a huge boost financially and tells all the retailers out there that you have a new improved product to put on your shelves instead of the old dead system they all view it in current. You know its frustrating to love and enjoy a setting/product like Rifts, but only to see that the owners just don't care what the consumers think and let it go.

So come on PB, give us fans/consumers some love and give us the odd post from the big man himself that shows he is listening to his fan base. Like a response of "At current, is there any thought about a new system for PB or Rifts?, and if not what are your thoughts on that? (they why's or why nots)"

My thread and posts have alot of critisism about PB, but it's not hate mail, it is because i actually really love some of the products they are offering (Rifts) but i can see they need ALOT of improvement as a company and hope maybe my voice can help offer solutions to do so.

100% agreement w/you here Nether, I would like to add that Palladium Books needs to STOP relying solely on word of mouth and internet sales and actually get its products BACK onto gaming store shelves. Selling their T-shirts thru open retailers would also garner them HUGE amounts of attention as well as cash. There are plenty of comic companies to advertise through and their complete LAC K of advertisement is hurting them big time.
So, Yes. Kevin needs to get his head out of the sand and start actively forwarding his comapnies products and looking into fixing a badly broken product instead of waiting for a few relatively miniscule die hard fans to rescue him again.

[keir451]

What I've read so far is a lot of people saying there needs to be a complete re-write of the rules but with no specifics on what/how it should actually be changed. A comparison to what I've read is if your spouse makes you a hamburger with lettuce, cheese, tomatos on a wonderbread bun and you say, "it was good a while ago now I want a change." You're spouse looks at you and says "change what specifically." This boards response is "YOU'RE LAZY AND DON"T WANT TO CHANGE YOU NEVER LISTEN TO ME!!!!!" When all you actually said is you want a different burger. If you really want change you should say "Well dear, I would really like a brioche(sp?) bun with chipotle mayo and bacon. Also I would like it to be a Kobe burger instead of regular ground chuck."

I'm not saying change is a bad thing or that it shuld never happen, change is good it spices things up, but you can't just say I think the rules are confusing. You have to say I think it's confusing that A,B,C,D,E happens when it should just be Y that happens once instead of all the other junk. But I haven't read anyone saying that. I see lots of "well I don't like these rules, I like everything but the rules so I make my own" Well why not try to help out and say what your rules are. Or are you scared that they will be torn apart like everything palladium seems to do is on this forum?

I don't mean to sound really flamey, but Jebus people, stop complaining about crap and give some solutions don't just keep complaining. This board reminds me of the lady that sits across from me at work. She spend 75% of her day complaining about the software we use, she never says what she would do differently just that she doesn't like it. It gets old fast and is really annoying. Not only that but if she spent that time trying to learn the system instead of just needlessly complaining she might actually learn the system.

Again don't take this as me being against any change. I'm against people screaming CHANGE but then thats all the say. Hey KS CHANGE!!!!, KS change what? Rules!!!!!!, How do you want the rules changed? YOU NEVER LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS!!!!!!! Thats what I read on these forums.

We have attempted to list our potential solutions to Palladiums problems, they are apparently being ignored. My solutions are; 1) Better Advertisement, 2) Get Palladium's various RPG (esp. Rifts) on bookstore shelves, send extra copies or SOMETHING, 3)Sell Rifts products in general merchandise stores like T-shirts in T-shirt stores, or mugs thru Spencer's Gifts or even send a few to various gaming stores. That's just to help the COMPANY, the GAME well, we need better writing for one, better editing and book layouts a single exp table for ALL classes, books out on time, a stronger magic system but at the same time one that doesn't try to copy technology, STOP dealing with small time Mom& Pop stores/companies that can't handle the load. If you want to produce figurines, have Big Name company (like Ral Partha) produce them. STOP attempting to sue every Tom, Dick and video game comapny that uses the word "Rift", encourage players to create diaromas for Rifts CE, etc. You want to produce a video game? Don't use cell phones as your medium, get Microsoft involved or Sony or another comapny that isn't going have a failed product the day after you sign the contract. Better yet, replace Kevin as the SOLE person in charge with someone who won't nerf everything and actually can get books out on time.

[Nether]

I'm talking about the rule changes specifically Keir and you did exactly what doesn't help.

"a stronger magic system but at the same time one that doesn't try to copy technology"

This is a perfect example. What do you suggest? I hear what you are saying. You want stronger overall magic system but don't make a spell called laser finger. How do you purpose they do that? How do you think the system should be stronger. What do you want to see? Saying I want to eat a steak but not telling the chef how to prepare it doesn't help anyone.

Wow, dude you need to quite calling people here lazy and read the boards and you will see that there is tons and tons of threads from over 10 years on how to address and fix the issues. They have all been ignored.

Everyone and i mean everyone that plays this game has house rules, and thats not a good thing. That suggests that the rules system is so problemmatic that no one can use it as is without house rules.

What I've read so far is a lot of people saying there needs to be a complete re-write of the rules but with no specifics on what/how it should actually be changed. A comparison to what I've read is if your spouse makes you a hamburger with lettuce, cheese, tomatos on a wonderbread bun and you say, "it was good a while ago now I want a change." You're spouse looks at you and says "change what specifically." This boards response is "YOU'RE LAZY AND DON"T WANT TO CHANGE YOU NEVER LISTEN TO ME!!!!!" When all you actually said is you want a different burger. If you really want change you should say "Well dear, I would really like a brioche(sp?) bun with chipotle mayo and bacon. Also I would like it to be a Kobe burger instead of regular ground chuck."

This is not that good ex.

It is more like eating a plain loaf of bread with a wheel of cheese in the dark ages. Sure back then it was normal and common, but as time passed and we have the improvement of sandwich and healthier options, it is like PB decided they want to stay in the dark ages eating thier loaf of bread and wheel of cheese instead of upgrading with the times.
Everyones house rules are possible solutions already created and tested. What more do you need there?

[Nether]

I'm talking about the rule changes specifically Keir and you did exactly what doesn't help.

"a stronger magic system but at the same time one that doesn't try to copy technology"

This is a perfect example. What do you suggest? I hear what you are saying. You want stronger overall magic system but don't make a spell called laser finger. How do you purpose they do that? How do you think the system should be stronger. What do you want to see? Saying I want to eat a steak but not telling the chef how to prepare it doesn't help anyone.

Wow, dude you need to quite calling people here lazy and read the boards and you will see that there is tons and tons of threads from over 10 years on how to address and fix the issues. They have all been ignored.

Everyone and i mean everyone that plays this game has house rules, and thats not a good thing. That suggests that the rules system is so problemmatic that no one can use it as is without house rules.

What I've read so far is a lot of people saying there needs to be a complete re-write of the rules but with no specifics on what/how it should actually be changed. A comparison to what I've read is if your spouse makes you a hamburger with lettuce, cheese, tomatos on a wonderbread bun and you say, "it was good a while ago now I want a change." You're spouse looks at you and says "change what specifically." This boards response is "YOU'RE LAZY AND DON"T WANT TO CHANGE YOU NEVER LISTEN TO ME!!!!!" When all you actually said is you want a different burger. If you really want change you should say "Well dear, I would really like a brioche(sp?) bun with chipotle mayo and bacon. Also I would like it to be a Kobe burger instead of regular ground chuck."

This is not that good ex.

It is more like eating a plain loaf of bread with a wheel of cheese in the dark ages. Sure back then it was normal and common, but as time passed and we have the improvement of sandwich and healthier options, it is like PB decided they want to stay in the dark ages eating thier loaf of bread and wheel of cheese instead of upgrading with the times.
Everyones house rules are possible solutions already created and tested. What more do you need there?

Didn't call anyone lazy all I said was that if you want something changed give specifics on what you propose. If you have nothing to add but just want something changed that doesn't help anyone and is really annoying.

If people's house rules are solutions why not post them specifically like "I want robot combat changed, this is what I do in my house rules, this is how it works, this is that and this and this that this," not just " I want change." And I'm sorry I haven't skimmed the last 10 years of postings before I chimed in on this specific thread.

Well i can understand what your saying but, PB are the "Professional" game designers and it is what there time is put towards. So really we can suggest but they are the ones that should be able to solve the problems that there customers are having with thier product. Problem is they have changed so very little sinse the beggining, and some things are just as terrible as they were from day one. Like book editing, scattered rules and most importantly to me is very vague rule system that contradicts itself or just doesn't give the consumers a good idea to how it functions. As for fixes and adjustments to the rules there has been little over the timespan.

As well players have posted there house rules on this board and other places but again PB just ignores all of them.

The thread on "how to save PB" and if you look at the number of posters saying they want a updated system, its staggering that PB still just ignores them. So what else can you do when they just won't accept the help that so many are trying to offer them?

[keir451]

I'm talking about the rule changes specifically Keir and you did exactly what doesn't help.

"a stronger magic system but at the same time one that doesn't try to copy technology"

This is a perfect example. What do you suggest? I hear what you are saying. You want stronger overall magic system but don't make a spell called laser finger. How do you purpose they do that? How do you think the system should be stronger. What do you want to see? Saying I want to eat a steak but not telling the chef how to prepare it doesn't help anyone.

Creating a better magic system isn't easy, personally I'd rathe swap Palladiums magic for D&D magic outright.
I want to see spells like fireball go away, it's pathetic. Replace it with something like FAE (Fuel Air Explosion) that not only explodes but decimates entire areas. A couple of miles per level of experience. Ditch the stupid "call lightning" it's only 1d6 x10 max anyway, barely even scratches PA units or Robot vehicles, ditch the ridiculous "Create anti-matter" spells, unless alchemy suddenly works and mages can turn lead into gold the they can't manipulate anti-matter and if they tried they'd be dead as even a "magical barrier" is formed of regular matter so when the two intersect, well there goes the entire city.
"Summon Meteor" I can dig, but it should do more damage perhaps as much as 2d6 x 100 or so.
The spells SHOULD be strictly level based, none of this " a mage can learn any spell", that gives magic away at too cheapa price. If a mage wants to cast say "Guns & Roses" or "MegaDeath" then he should have spent years or even decades searching for those spells and be at the requisite level to cast them (Yes I'm a fan of Bastard and Dark Schnieder ). One good ol' D&D spell with unlimited utility was "dig", how about something simple like that?
How about actual illusion magic, you can fool alot of people with the right illusion. There should be a specific creation time and material requirements for amulets and magic weapons so we don't have people saying that an Atlantean High Lord can just sit on Ley Line and **** out amulets at whim(as some people think). The game rules overall need to be clarified, character creation should be one of the FIRST things you encounter right after a general description of the world and the game setting. Followed by skills(including Hand to Hand), then equipment, then spells and psionics and then cybernetics and simple NPC generation (like in the original RPG book).

[Saitou Hajime]

I agree with ALL!! I do believe that Palladium needs a serious revision once and for all, will that happen as long as Kevin is in charge? NO! A game publisher who is TOO concerned with story over flow of game play and streamlining of rules to HELP his product should be replaced.

His company as such, he can do as he likes.

You know why the rules don't change "Stock" Palladium cares stock as a company, they can't afford the switch because they have to throw out too much bought and paid for stock. That is likely the big core reason. Last Christmas I bought nine X-mas Packages, several of which came back with first printings from books five or more years old. This is stock sitting in a warehouse. New System and it is Garbage. I figure there is no way that the new system could bring in enough revenue to off set these losses.

The system isn't stellar, it was great for it time, but now well it seem old. certainly a better edit main book that clearly has everything together would be nice. No need to change the rules, maybe little things.

[Chronicle]

The system is alright, maybe a new simplified set of rules that can somehow not invalidate the rest of the gaming books would be nice. More like streamlining rather then changing. The Core makes the game. Magic lacks its equallizing abilities but eh.

[Zer0 Kay]

now i mentioned earlier that maybe the BOM and GMG could be split up is because with time these books will grow in size if they keep getting new WB data thrown in them. BOM and GMG are both 352 pages each! after a while they will get heavy and turn into phone books. HU2 is also 352 i see a trend.

the bionics source book is 109 pages.

anyways, the GMG may have to shed its bionics/cyber/cyborg section to fill with more vehicles/weapons. and if there is no editing done to the bionics stats than that book is already out and still good to go. mmm a smaller cheaper GMG without sacrificing info? i like it.

or there will be a book of psionics. the BOP. either way.

the BOM may have to do the same after a while then it will have to split into BOM and book of magical devices (the BOMD) the second tome will have all the TW devices, PPE batteries, cursed/ imbued/ enchanted stuff, magic plants/herbs, ritural goodies you name it.

why fill the GMG with vehicles and weapons? Why not make vehicle and weapons compendiums? The GMG should be just that a guide for the GM not an encyclopedia. It should be like "Listen Up You Primative Screwheads" for Cyberpunk or like the old DMG from AD&D NOT a reprint of everything in one easy to find location. That is what compendiums are for and/or what they were doing with the apendix books for Rifts.

[Saitou Hajime]

Very few RPG are ever really improved to be honest. The tweeks to the system or new system itself changes the "feel" or "mood" of an rpg itself.

Just look at what happened to Palladium Fantasy!

2nd Edition revised teh setting and brought the rules to reflect the current megaverse at the time, then fired the only person in the company who had done any work for teh Setting "Cough" Bill "Cough" Coffin. And if we look at the cool factor of the books, the ones we really liked were dont by "Not" Kevin Siembeda, he did a fantastic job with Fantasy, but sense we lost Eric, CJ, and Bill, the company is not doing too well. We see one or two books a year maybe, and are asked for donations. Cancer research gets donations, not the company who I play house and pretend time with, they want ot be saved, then dont ask for donations, start selling Stock, let the fans have some real stake in the company. that way we can vote that yes, now you have to hirer a real editor, and you have to start making the books, in a timely manner, that changes have to be made, that an apology has to be made to Bill, so he can finish Land of the Damned and the pre-orders for crap that was mentioned 15 years ago is removed from the online store, sorry kevin it makes you look like a jack ass when you got Vapor Ware older than Duke Nukem Forever on the store page, and Duke Nukem Forever actually got released.

Im talking about Mechanoid Space, here is a hint, if its not off to the printers, dont offer pre-orders.

not realistic, i have no idea whos does the Printing for Palladium, but the lst stuff that when to the pinters was back in two or so weeks shipping.

An OCC/RCC book would be nice. That would work very well.