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flatline wrote:If there's no science, then quit calling it science fiction.

God forbid that a game could have any sort of educational value besides adding pips on dice.

--flatline

What have I told you about trying to use logic in Rifts?

BAD FLATLINE BAD BAD BAD

flatline wrote:If there's no science, then quit calling it science fiction.

God forbid that a game could have any sort of educational value besides adding pips on dice.

--flatline

There's science, but it's RIFTS science, not real world science.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

flatline wrote:If there's no science, then quit calling it science fiction.

God forbid that a game could have any sort of educational value besides adding pips on dice.

--flatline

There's science, but it's RIFTS science, not real world science.

Translation: it's Fantasy.

--flatline

Noticed something missing from the BB ammo text. They never said what the damage is for soft targets (i.e.: SDC targets). I can't deduce the damage from the CoMW because there is no caliber given. [If you don't understand this, give the BB text a reread and give it a thought. I didn't catch this till after a sleep.]

Then there is the SD shotgun shells, they only give the damages for the Shotgun shells that fit into the "shotgun" BB weapons. But there two sizes of "shotgun" BB listed. So there is the question that Which size of 'Shotgun' bore is the shotgun shell damages are listed for?

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

flatline wrote:If there's no science, then quit calling it science fiction.

God forbid that a game could have any sort of educational value besides adding pips on dice.

--flatline

There's science, but it's RIFTS science, not real world science.

Translation: it's Fantasy.

--flatline

SCIENCE-Fantasy

jaymz wrote:

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

flatline wrote:If there's no science, then quit calling it science fiction.

God forbid that a game could have any sort of educational value besides adding pips on dice.

--flatline

There's science, but it's RIFTS science, not real world science.

Translation: it's Fantasy.

--flatline

SCIENCE-Fantasy

That's not bad. I'd prefer "Sciencey Fantasy" to indicate that it attempts the appearance of science, but none of the substance.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

jaymz wrote:

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

flatline wrote:If there's no science, then quit calling it science fiction.

God forbid that a game could have any sort of educational value besides adding pips on dice.

--flatline

There's science, but it's RIFTS science, not real world science.

Translation: it's Fantasy.

--flatline

SCIENCE-Fantasy

That's not bad. I'd prefer "Sciencey Fantasy" to indicate that it attempts the appearance of science, but none of the substance.

--flatline

Actually Science Fantasy is what George Lucas used to call Star Wars when asked about his "science-fiction" movie.

jaymz wrote:Actually Science Fantasy is what George Lucas used to call Star Wars when asked about his "science-fiction" movie.

It was "Space-opera" wasn't it?

Hmm I haven't gotten far enough in to the equipment section yet. I am only around pg. 65 or so as of last night. I am liking it a fair amount so far. Most of Pepsi's comments have been pretty spot on so far. That said, I'd say the writting/editing mistakes are a little lower than I had expected based on his review (so far at any rate). I have caught a few, but in part I have read some writting that is just HORRIBLE...so I have a tendancy to mentally construct the proper grammer and syntax at times unless a sentence is just uncomprehensible.

My biggest issue in past books isn't "OMG, there is no WAY in reality it could work like that". Oh, sure, sometimes it just bends my mind (in a bad way) how real science is occasionally abused. Mostly I can ignore that without imperiling my soul. The big issues I tend to have are entirely game balance or common sense related when things just don't make sense.

Like the extremely high cost of eclip chargers. It just doesn't make sense on a lot of levels. Also the cost of recharging eclips also doesn't make sense to me. Then there is the balance between a man in infantry armor with a laser rifle and a heavy tank with a BAG on a turret. The fact that the infantryman, employing some mildly decent cover and some good rolls, has a good chance of actually destroying said tank all on his lonesome bothers me also.

But I also tend to house rule things to balance them (the way I think they should be balanced). The ideas and a lot of the basics behind stuff is just fine though and 99% of the story is great too even if it violates "sci fi" good sense a lot of times.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

jaymz wrote:Actually Science Fantasy is what George Lucas used to call Star Wars when asked about his "science-fiction" movie.

It was "Space-opera" wasn't it?

he has used both

God, but I love the TW Glitterboy...it's like offical vindication of my 'Haunted Vehicles' concept.
Though I do wonder what the kickstand-like pole is, on the Rift Hawk, sticking out above the wing.

Great review! Really nailed a lot of points spot on.

Great to see this book come out, I could have used this a few years ago during my campaign that involved a lot of black market connections. Hmmm maybe time to restart my Merc-Town game.

I do have to say the art is really good, always loved Palladium for the art. The cover is not quite what I would have expected. It's not a terrible cover, but computer art is difficult, i have a few friends who have dabbled in it. The people and clothing are hard to get down without looking plastic and stiff. I would like to see this artist do some robots, power armor or soldiers in armor, just to see how it looks. I think the people need a bit more work yet, but good for them for getting their work on the cover.

Pepsi - One of your concerns was how the BM benefits for characters could be abused. Does the book make clear that a character owned business/racket would require input from the character, or that rivals might wish to liquidate the current management?

Though it's quite an initial boon for a character to have a source of income like that, I can see loads of potential for GMs to use this for plot hooks and to make a player's life more "interesting".

sHaka wrote:Pepsi - One of your concerns was how the BM benefits for characters could be abused. Does the book make clear that a character owned business/racket would require input from the character, or that rivals might wish to liquidate the current management?

Though it's quite an initial boon for a character to have a source of income like that, I can see loads of potential for GMs to use this for plot hooks and to make a player's life more "interesting".

Yes that's there but it's largely glossed over. It -is- mentioned. Very much for the plot hook type usage you mention, but mostly it's "Roll the cost for this week. Now roll the profits for this week. The profit dice are always 2 to 3 times the number of the cost dice. Does this mean automatic profit every time? no. If your cost is 1D6X100 and your profit is 3D6X100, you could roll 600 cost and only 300 profit, but chances are it won't shake down that way.

Yes someone could come along and mess with your business and that's the plot hooky thing you mentioned (( It'd directly stated in the book)). Thing is they say about.. 50 times that these overlays or such can go for about 99% of the OOCs in Rifts. If you just 'Start out' with a character in the black market you get this power up. If you 'convert old characters to BM' it's not quite as big. Thing is.... there are sorts that will instantly just make every char Black Market to get the added money and benifits. Which are above the board big, for those in the black market.

Thing is, if the black market gives these, then.... being in the CS should give it's own benefits. Being in the NGR army should. Being in larsen's Brigade should. Or being a member of Lazlo should. Ect.

I can see the use and appeal. Sadly I think that "While intended to add depth and role play oppertunity to the game/system" That about 90% of the time it's going to "Add twinkery and abuse of power free money and free weapons and such" To the game. I've been playing since the 80s.... and I know how it's written to be used... but having played that long I can see "TWINK BAIT" when it pops up.

Being in the CS Benefit: Free Ammo! Free Ammo! Free Ammo! And fire support on demand(maybe). And the intangible benefits! A righteous cause! The fellowship of your colleagues! The loving attention of your friendly political officer! The benign guidance of the Emperor! Freedom from doubt! Things that just can't be valued in terms of money!

Johnnycat93 wrote:

taalismn wrote:Being in the CS Benefit: Free Ammo! Free Ammo! Free Ammo! And fire support on demand(maybe). And the intangible benefits! A righteous cause! The fellowship of your colleagues! The loving attention of your friendly political officer! The benign guidance of the Emperor! Freedom from doubt! Things that just can't be valued in terms of money!

plus free laundry.

And the nifty tattoos..."Property of the CS'.

Yeps, being in the CS means never having to worry about little things like "free will" or "ethical quandries".
Shoot, Salute, commit blatant acts of genocide without reprecussions, get rack time and repeat as needed until the 'best-before' date on your candy [censored] expires.
Yeps; being a Neo-facist objectivist sure is great! [/sarcasm]

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

gaby wrote:Are ther any one of the 5 Factions do you think would make a Good Villains in a H.U,s Game?

The thing about the 5 factions is they're pretty set up to be Rifts stuff. Bandito is set up in Area 51, the Chicago Network is, basicly just the 'mob' but set up in the CS, the magical faction is based out of the magic zone and alot of what they do is based around rifts and such. The french one is a 'Free Quebec' thing. ect.

For HU, just use real black market type things. use the Yakuza, or the Triads, or the Mob, or the Vory, or the Columbians. With HU you know they've hired on some supers to aid them in their criminal stuff. Heck you could make up a gang or organization that's ruled by supers.

I think they can work with a little modifications.

Bandito Arms -- A group of smugglers find an abandoned factory with designs and decide to make their own stuff instead of/as well as the usaully stolen and resold weapons. Naturally this is easier to maintain in Rifts Earth than Contemporary Earth, but it still makes a good jumping-off point. Say it was a secret govenrnment or corporate facility in some Banana Republic in South America, Africa, or Southeast Asia. The previous owners thought it lost in some political upheaval some years back that turned violent with shocking speed. Some time later, the gear they were working on turns up in the hands of some mercs, terrorists or even a supervillain. They don't want stuff linking back to them, so they want the Players to shut them down. If you do it that way, you get firefights with goons with BigBore guns, robot horses, Sidewinder SAMs, and heaven forbid Shadow Boys or maybe even Glitter Boys! On the other hand, Turner Collins is kinda liking the businessman thing, so if you get in quietly, maybe you can convince him to go all the way straight, either work for the company rebuilding the facility or go into business for himself. And what about Diablo Joe? He thinks he has a purpose out there for him, maybe being a Hero is his calling.

Chicago Network -- These guys are pretty much straight-up Gangsters with no stats and maybe good for a few NPC ideas. For example, Charles Macon gives me an idea of a Bounty Hunter (Physical Training and/or Hardware) who has the public face of a Hero for Hire but is really a Mafia Boss.

La Oculta -- In HU terms, these could just be a Mexican drug/smuggling cartel. Two of their three leaders are psychic assassins, so they could make good Supervillainess material. Their feral Dog Boys could be Mutant Animals "liberated" from a pharmaceutical company they raided some time ago. Another idea is to work the Vampire angle. A Vampire Intelligence is looking for a foothold on Earth, leading to a three-way Shadow War between La Oculta, their Vampire infiltrators, and the players/government.

Le Marche Noir -- The only real thing worth importing is Jean Robillard himself. On the other hand, that gives you a Dragon for a supervillain, so maybe that's all you need. If you think he needs to be buffed up to handle your heroes, you could always make him an Adult rather than a Hatchling.

DhAkael wrote:Yeps, being in the CS means never having to worry about little things like "free will" or "ethical quandries".
Shoot, Salute, commit blatant acts of genocide without reprecussions, get rack time and repeat as needed until the 'best-before' date on your candy [censored] expires.
Yeps; being a Neo-facist objectivist sure is great! [/sarcasm]

Remember the 'gifts' in the movie 'Brazil'? The plum-bob that would drop onto a plate marked 'Yes/No'? Classic simple CS gift. No Black Market connections needed.
(unless you really want to gork your Tolkeenite players who learn of an important 'morale booster' cargo shipment bound for a major Coalition port. BIG shipment, and guarded moderately well, not lax, but enough to say 'I'm not THAT important to be noticed!'. At no small risk to themselves, PCs manage to hijack the cargo, divert it, then get it to a safe place, then crack it open. New weapons? New armor? Robot hookers? Chocolate? No....thousands of Yes/No toys....Not even worth reselling on the black market. )

As a GM who runs a New West game set in the Barony of Charity I have to ask is there any mention of the baronies especially with the Bandito Arms group?

Rockwolf66 wrote:As a GM who runs a New West game set in the Barony of Charity I have to ask is there any mention of the baronies especially with the Bandito Arms group?

They mention Bandito and its immediate environs.

Well it seems Kevin kinda sorta listened to us about the cover.

Palladium has now produced a limited edition Black Market with a black leather cover. (With a picture of the shadow boy in gold line)). $60. First come, first serve.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's Science fiction

Which means correctness and accuracy, when possible, is even more important.

--flatline

It's Rifts. As soon as the first magical, psionic, teleporting dragon or Mega damage laser gun enter the scene, "Correctness and accuracy" are in the eye of the beholder and largely optional. It's correct in the world of Rifts. Science is in general 'like' our world but not 100%.

It's a RPG. If they want to call something a shell or a bullet, or what ever. Who cares? I'm a gun owner. I've seen guys FLIP OUT When someone calls a Magazine a "clip". There's no point to it. Noone cares. Those that do, tend to do so just to be jerks. It's the same type of guy that will go to a sci fi movie and then very loudly tell the rest of the people around them "In REALITY.... You wouldn't hear any explosions in space.... Gaw! It's so unrealistic!" But the space ships and light sabers and laser cannons and stuff are just fine. Noone likes that guy. We all know you can't hear explosions in space, but we're wacting a science fiction movie. Not a documentary.

"Correcting" A scifi/fantasy rpg on gun terms is just silly. It's what ever they feel like calling it. Is it not what we call it? Well, there's been a few 100 years in scienctific development, then a world wide Apocalypse, and 200 years of darkness where most of humanity has lost the ability to spell. Much less have "Book correct definitions" more over the item in question is developed by a criminal organization, after the 200 years of dark ages, and 100 years of crawling up out of the abyss. We're lucky they're not called 'Gats' or something.



I guess what I'm trying to say is "What's 'correct' for us doesn't matter, if in the setting, parlance has changed. language evolves. Sometimes words change meaning. "Bad" can mean bad, but since the 80s, sometimes 'bad' means good or awesome. More recently "Sick" has taken on a new meaning, also possibly meaning "Awesome". (( I rather dislike that one))

at least 300 to 400 years of linquistic drift in RIFTS UNIVERSE... the stuff is called what ever the writers say it's called.

There needs to be a Like button on the next message board system update!

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

sHaka wrote:Pepsi - One of your concerns was how the BM benefits for characters could be abused. Does the book make clear that a character owned business/racket would require input from the character, or that rivals might wish to liquidate the current management?

Though it's quite an initial boon for a character to have a source of income like that, I can see loads of potential for GMs to use this for plot hooks and to make a player's life more "interesting".

Yes that's there but it's largely glossed over. It -is- mentioned. Very much for the plot hook type usage you mention, but mostly it's "Roll the cost for this week. Now roll the profits for this week. The profit dice are always 2 to 3 times the number of the cost dice. Does this mean automatic profit every time? no. If your cost is 1D6X100 and your profit is 3D6X100, you could roll 600 cost and only 300 profit, but chances are it won't shake down that way.

Yes someone could come along and mess with your business and that's the plot hooky thing you mentioned (( It'd directly stated in the book)). Thing is they say about.. 50 times that these overlays or such can go for about 99% of the OOCs in Rifts. If you just 'Start out' with a character in the black market you get this power up. If you 'convert old characters to BM' it's not quite as big. Thing is.... there are sorts that will instantly just make every char Black Market to get the added money and benifits. Which are above the board big, for those in the black market.

Thing is, if the black market gives these, then.... being in the CS should give it's own benefits. Being in the NGR army should. Being in larsen's Brigade should. Or being a member of Lazlo should. Ect.

I can see the use and appeal. Sadly I think that "While intended to add depth and role play oppertunity to the game/system" That about 90% of the time it's going to "Add twinkery and abuse of power free money and free weapons and such" To the game. I've been playing since the 80s.... and I know how it's written to be used... but having played that long I can see "TWINK BAIT" when it pops up.

I see the rational behind it.

Its the only way a character can realistically afford the unrealistically overpriced eclip chargers in the book

Just about done reading it. I like a lot of the stuff, however, I am not a huge fan of the PS penalties for the big bore weapons either in the book or from New West still. These things have a very short range and deliver most of their knock down and damage because they are basically firing shot gun slugs that are really mini "concussion" explosives. I don't see where there is a huge amount of kick back and the weapons themselves are not all that heavy really.

If a PS of 10 is the average human strength, I doubt you'd really need much over that. Your average Joe who is probably even kind of a bit out of shape can easily hold and fire a 12 gauge shotgun without too much difficulty. If you have some experience, that average Joe can probably even fire a 10 gauge resonably. If you have a larger frame and are made a little stronger you could easily fire a .50BMG semi-auto rifle from the shoulder or an 8 gauge elephant gun. Your shoulder may not be your friend later that day, but accuracy wouldn't be too bad.

I can understand why railguns need such a high PS, because they are generally VERY heavy, combined with have a serious kick as they generally accelerate their projectiles to insane speeds. However, regular big bore weapons don't do this and even the rail gun big bore weapons get most of their kick from the concussion rounds still and mostly get some extra range because of a little electromagnetic zip...so even those shouldn't require much more than merely above average strength (say, 14 or so).

I know there isn't a single PB staff member (maybe no writers either?) who know anything about guns or have any real gun experience. That said, it also annoys me that they call most of them big bore shotgun rounds and the littler ones, IIRC, magnum rounds. Since there are only two flavors, the "lighter" round wouldn't be a magnum round. It might be a pistol caliber big bore round, or a light big bore round or something, but not a magnum. Next, the shotgun big bore rounds are not shotgun rounds. Granted, you can have a shotgun and only ever fire slugs out of it. HOWEVER, shotgun generally denotes that you can and will fire shot rounds. A big bore round is NOT a shot round. It is an explosive slug. The book indicates that most big bore weapons that can fire big bore "shotgun" rounds can also fire regular shotgun rounds (though IIRC apparently regular shotguns cannot fire big bore rounds, without any explination given as to why they can't). It also appears that, that situation is very rare.

Last negative comment, big bore rounds are just too overpriced. Heck, ammo/recharges in general always are, but loading up one of the big bore rail guns with a full ammo drum is going to run you 50,000-60,000 credits (and cost you about 1,000 credits per 6 round burst, compared to, I think a typical, 200 credits or so per regular rail gun burst, which tends to do a lot more damage. Rail guns tend to be around 10cr per round and 20 round bursts or so for light railguns, compared to 160cr per round for big bore shotgun rounds).

I guess the issue I have with this in terms of cost is "realism". I know one shan't mention realism in an RPG, but if we go on an average pay of around 2,000cr per month for a CS grunt, which I assume is roughly the average civilian pay as well, emptying a single eclip or all of about a dozen big bore shotgun rounds would eat up the average month's salary.

I just can't see the difference in typical pay from your average annual wage and what an independent mercenary or adventurer would need to earn for a "mission" being sooooo incredibly different. If you empty half a dozen eclips and toss a few hand grenades you could easily have gone through 20,000+ credits of ammo in the course of a couple of battles. Or the entire year's wages for your average CS citizen. Compared to today, where that same ammo expenditure probably wouldn't have even cost me a week's wages. Heck, it might not have even been much more than a day or two of pay for half a dozen rifle mags and a few hand grenades. I know MD weapons are not ubiquitous, but still. The price of entry is so ridiculous combined with ammo prices it would be exceedingly rare to even find a half way well off small town with more than MAYBE an armed sherriff. Possible a deputy or two as well. No chance of a real armed militia in a town of a few hundred.

Basic body armor, rifle, pistol and half a dozen eclips might be the equivelent of 5-7 years of wages for the average CS citizen to equip just the Sherriff. Since I am betting most even decent towns probably have a median income below that of CS citizens, that could be the taxes for an entire year from 40-60 people just to arm and minimally equip a single person. Lets not talk about the expense if the sherriff ever needs to use any of that. Heaven forbid he needs any target practice to make sure he actually is able to shoot something later (just a clip a month, which is barely any target practice, could burn the taxes from 1-3 people for an entire year, a so years worth of very light target practice might cost the taxes from a couple of dozen people). Now if we have a town a thousand (I assume the town gov't provides more services than just a lawman and deputies), they might be able to equip that sherriff and maybe 3-5 deputies and that would probably suck up a third of the town's taxes when you add in things like target practice, maybe a vehicle or two, etc.

That town isn't likely going to be able to hire any adventurers to help them out ("you want HOW much to take out that witchling and couple of bandits that are harrassing us! I don't care that 1/2 of your fee is for ammo you are going to use. We can't afford to pay you 30,000cr each x the 6 of you!")

This makes me a little sad. I was actually hoping that they would use the BM book as a chance to correct or at least improve the economics of the setting.

--flatline

I also noted that the big bore stuff was expensive. Most especially when it does half to a third damage of other compairable weapons. makes you wonder who's buying them and using them, and why.

Don't get me wrong. you don't have to have the strognest biggest gun you can for everything. I don't.

But there's a difference when you're paying the same if not more, for a weaker weapon. Pistols? Ok.. they come in all sizes, but why would you buy a rapid fire rail gun like big bore gun? if you need a big gun, why not just by a laser rifle, or plasma rifle? Why waste the money on all that big bore ammo and stuff to do less damage?


I really can appreciate that 'power creep' didn't make the weapons stronger. I get it.

They should just be correspondingly cheeper.

As for the ammo cost. This -is- directly addressed in the book. The guns are cheeper on purpose because they make their money in ammo.

Sort of like movies don't make money off ticket sales, they barely pay the staff with those, they make money off the $10 popcorns and $5 candy bars.

There is the gaff about how Just because a TW PA is 'fully enclosed' that it is not a MAGIC item that is compatible with magic. Thus mages can't cast spells out it it.

This is not compatible with established Canon.
In RDB3, the Warlock Marine Power Armor, which is a TW creation, Mages can cast spells out of.

So maybe the writers should do their research into "what is in Canon" before making grand sweeping statements that are counter to Canon.

Or maybe the TW PA in the book is designed different from the other one? Not everything is 100% the same.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Or maybe the TW PA in the book is designed different from the other one? Not everything is 100% the same.

If they meant "Just This PA" then they would of said "this PA" not a "reminder that all PA....." in a ALL Encompassing Statement.

I did state my argument with the words 'grand sweeping statement.' Which is what the words they used meant. Which is why their statement is Wrong.

Grand sweeping statements and contradictory info against established canon (or against a previous paragraph in some cases) seems to be the norm now.
*shrug*
THIS is why the concept of 'beta readers' that critique and catch errors BEFORE going to final edit is a damned good idea.
Unfortunately it only seems to exist in fan-Fic communities.

Oh well; at least it has some pretty pictures.

The best way to deal with this particular problem is completely ignore any contradictions and just use the material in it how YOU, the GM, would.
Because (and you WILL eventually get this point);
"The Final call on any ruling of game mechanics or canon is the purview of the GM.
Full Stop.
End of line."

Heck; Kevin Siembiada has in fact said this in his introduction to Role-Play in BOTH editions of the Main book (re; "If it doesn't work / suit you, DON'T USE IT.")
One would suggest people remember this and stop kvetching about the contradictions or inconsistancies by the free-lance writers.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Or maybe the TW PA in the book is designed different from the other one? Not everything is 100% the same.

If they meant "Just This PA" then they would of said "this PA" not a "reminder that all PA....." in a ALL Encompassing Statement.

I did state my argument with the words 'grand sweeping statement.' Which is what the words they used meant. Which is why their statement is Wrong.

What page is that on. I'll take a look.

Nothing against you Drew, you might be 100% right, but after years on these forums I've found grand sweeping statements by POSTERS here to often be in error as well. lol. I like to open the book and see.

Again you could be 100% right but I like to read it and see if it's a "Palladium' mistake or a "Poster mistake"

In the text for the Mirage TW PA in the back.

According to the description under the Mirage, other spellcasting is not allowed in the Mirage itself. It says no sweeping statement about all TW PA's.

Icefalcon wrote:According to the description under the Mirage, other spell casting is not allowed in the Mirage itself. It says no sweeping statement about all TW PA's.

The statement made was about "All PA's" Not limited to any specific model not any specific grouping ether.

"..as being enclosed by the PA prevents their use of magic."

No, it is not just being "enclosed by a PA" that would prevent the use of magic. It would be enclosed with metal and man-made materials that are not enchanted that would prevent a mage from not being able to cast spells out of the PA.

Yes, this might be a slightly wrong attempt to say that the magic of the mirage PA blocks the mage from casting magic. But if they wanted to say that, why didn't they?

What this looks like is some Rifter who does not know that a mage can cast magic though magical body and power armor, only knowing that most magic can't penetrate a PA saying that the reverse is true even though canon says otherwise.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:According to the description under the Mirage, other spell casting is not allowed in the Mirage itself. It says no sweeping statement about all TW PA's.

The statement made was about "All PA's" Not limited to any specific model not any specific grouping ether.

"..as being enclosed by the PA prevents their use of magic."

No, it is not just being "enclosed by a PA" that would prevent the use of magic. It would be enclosed with metal and man-made materials that are not enchanted that would prevent a mage from not being able to cast spells out of the PA.

Yes, this might be a slightly wrong attempt to say that the magic of the mirage PA blocks the mage from casting magic. But if they wanted to say that, why didn't they?

I looked it up. It does not say that in the description of the Mirage. ANYWHERE in the description. So provide a page reference please.

section 3 Other magic
_______________________________
This could be seen as a step to Nerf the magic component of Rifts Even more then it is already nerfed.

Icefalcon wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:According to the description under the Mirage, other spell casting is not allowed in the Mirage itself. It says no sweeping statement about all TW PA's.

The statement made was about "All PA's" Not limited to any specific model not any specific grouping ether.

"..as being enclosed by the PA prevents their use of magic."

No, it is not just being "enclosed by a PA" that would prevent the use of magic. It would be enclosed with metal and man-made materials that are not enchanted that would prevent a mage from not being able to cast spells out of the PA.

Yes, this might be a slightly wrong attempt to say that the magic of the mirage PA blocks the mage from casting magic. But if they wanted to say that, why didn't they?

I looked it up. It does not say that in the description of the Mirage. ANYWHERE in the description. So provide a page reference please.

What it says, is "Practitioner's of Magic cannot cast their own spells while inside the Mirage, as being enclosed by the power armor prevents their use of magic."

That stipulates "THE MIRAGE' and 'as being enclosed by "THE" power armor..." Again refers to the Mirage.

Again it doesn't say all power armors. It says THIS ONE.

So other TW power armors might be built differently but 'The mirage' is built like this.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:According to the description under the Mirage, other spell casting is not allowed in the Mirage itself. It says no sweeping statement about all TW PA's.

The statement made was about "All PA's" Not limited to any specific model not any specific grouping ether.

"..as being enclosed by the PA prevents their use of magic."

No, it is not just being "enclosed by a PA" that would prevent the use of magic. It would be enclosed with metal and man-made materials that are not enchanted that would prevent a mage from not being able to cast spells out of the PA.

Yes, this might be a slightly wrong attempt to say that the magic of the mirage PA blocks the mage from casting magic. But if they wanted to say that, why didn't they?

I looked it up. It does not say that in the description of the Mirage. ANYWHERE in the description. So provide a page reference please.

Black Market pg 185 wrote:Note: Practicioners of Magic cannot cast their own spells while inside the Mirage as being enclosed by the power armor prevents their use of magic.

I was asking for a reference to this big sweeping statement that it was disallowed in ALL TW PA's.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:section 3 Other magic
_______________________________
This could be seen as a step to Nerf the magic component of Rifts Even more then it is already nerfed.

Exact page reference please?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:According to the description under the Mirage, other spell casting is not allowed in the Mirage itself. It says no sweeping statement about all TW PA's.

The statement made was about "All PA's" Not limited to any specific model not any specific grouping ether.

"..as being enclosed by the PA prevents their use of magic."

No, it is not just being "enclosed by a PA" that would prevent the use of magic. It would be enclosed with metal and man-made materials that are not enchanted that would prevent a mage from not being able to cast spells out of the PA.

Yes, this might be a slightly wrong attempt to say that the magic of the mirage PA blocks the mage from casting magic. But if they wanted to say that, why didn't they?

I looked it up. It does not say that in the description of the Mirage. ANYWHERE in the description. So provide a page reference please.

What it says, is "Practitioner's of Magic cannot cast their own spells while inside the Mirage, as being enclosed by the power armor prevents their use of magic."

That stipulates "THE MIRAGE' and 'as being enclosed by "THE" power armor..." Again refers to the Mirage.

Again it doesn't say all power armors. It says THIS ONE.

So other TW power armors might be built differently but 'The mirage' is built like this.

Exactly what I was trying to get at.

Maybe I am being paranoid but that read to me that it is taking off the magic can't, in most cases, penitrate mundane PAs and stretching it to include that mages can't cast magic out of magical PAs.

If it was because of the magic in the TW PA blocking the mage from casting out of it it would of said so.

As it is, the wording can be used to mages over by Rifters.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Black Market pg 185 wrote:Note: Practicioners of Magic cannot cast their own spells while inside the Mirage as being enclosed by the power armor prevents their use of magic.

Every section of the "Other Magic" category within the stats of the Mirage, Ironmage, and Rift Hawk all state the above bit about mages not being able to cast spells while inside the armor.

For some tend related information...

Rifts World Book 28 Arzno Page 90... it's a big paragraph that makes assumptions about mages in general and talks about how they can't cast spells in TW-PA and basically get screwed for being in PA (and apparently heavy armor) for basically no reason other then it fracks with their vibe...

Slight001 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Black Market pg 185 wrote:Note: Practicioners of Magic cannot cast their own spells while inside the Mirage as being enclosed by the power armor prevents their use of magic.

Every section of the "Other Magic" category within the stats of the Mirage, Ironmage, and Rift Hawk all state the above bit about mages not being able to cast spells while inside the armor.

For some tend related information...

Rifts World Book 28 Arzno Page 90... it's a big paragraph that makes assumptions about mages in general and talks about how they can't cast spells in TW-PA and basically get screwed for being in PA (and apparently heavy armor) for basically no reason other then it fracks with their vibe...

Which really doesn't matter when you've got power armor that specifically states you can cast spells while wearing it, like the Warlock Marine power armor. It makes little to no sense for mages to create heavily magical armor to wear that prevents them from actually being able to cast spells while it's worn.

Nightmask wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Black Market pg 185 wrote:Note: Practicioners of Magic cannot cast their own spells while inside the Mirage as being enclosed by the power armor prevents their use of magic.

Every section of the "Other Magic" category within the stats of the Mirage, Ironmage, and Rift Hawk all state the above bit about mages not being able to cast spells while inside the armor.

For some tend related information...

Rifts World Book 28 Arzno Page 90... it's a big paragraph that makes assumptions about mages in general and talks about how they can't cast spells in TW-PA and basically get screwed for being in PA (and apparently heavy armor) for basically no reason other then it fracks with their vibe...

Which really doesn't matter when you've got power armor that specifically states you can cast spells while wearing it, like the Warlock Marine power armor. It makes little to no sense for mages to create heavily magical armor to wear that prevents them from actually being able to cast spells while it's worn.

The Warlock Marine PA is looking more and more like an exception rather then a rule (heck each suit is also 'linked' to its specific user so it breaks with these more common suits right there...). However, I'd imagine that TW-PA in general wasn't really created for mages, but rather those like the people of Arzno who can channel P.P.E. while not actually being mages... (Cyber-Knights and Momano Headhunters are two known examples of classes that grant P.P.E. channeling) and for the insane Psionic who is willing to burn through their hard to replace I.S.P..

Nightmask wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Black Market pg 185 wrote:Note: Practicioners of Magic cannot cast their own spells while inside the Mirage as being enclosed by the power armor prevents their use of magic.

Every section of the "Other Magic" category within the stats of the Mirage, Ironmage, and Rift Hawk all state the above bit about mages not being able to cast spells while inside the armor.

For some tend related information...

Rifts World Book 28 Arzno Page 90... it's a big paragraph that makes assumptions about mages in general and talks about how they can't cast spells in TW-PA and basically get screwed for being in PA (and apparently heavy armor) for basically no reason other then it fracks with their vibe...

Which really doesn't matter when you've got power armor that specifically states you can cast spells while wearing it, like the Warlock Marine power armor. It makes little to no sense for mages to create heavily magical armor to wear that prevents them from actually being able to cast spells while it's worn.

Well not so silly if they just want the suit of PA. You're acting like being in the magical PA does nothing for them. I'm guessing they weigh it. "Better in the armor with limited spells, or out of the armor, with out the armor and protection it provides, and my spells."

Figured out how to explain it.

The note is written as it the writer is reminding the reader that as a general rule spells do not pass through normal Power Armor.

Which would of been fine, it it had been normal Power Armor. But not for Magical PAs.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Figured out how to explain it.

The note is written as it the writer is reminding the reader that as a general rule spells do not pass through normal Power Armor.

Which would of been fine, it it had been normal Power Armor. But not for Magical PAs.

I agree that it makes no sense on a broad scale. But I would think that being able to have a PA suit far outweighs the lack of spell power. These suits are more made for heavy combat not constant use. Besides, why would you play a spellcaster if you wanted to pilot power armor?

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Figured out how to explain it.

The note is written as it the writer is reminding the reader that as a general rule spells do not pass through normal Power Armor.

Which would of been fine, it it had been normal Power Armor. But not for Magical PAs.

I agree that it makes no sense on a broad scale. But I would think that being able to have a PA suit far outweighs the lack of spell power. These suits are more made for heavy combat not constant use. Besides, why would you play a spellcaster if you wanted to pilot power armor?

I agree partially, but I think that a D-Bee pilot with a high PPE base combined with a suit of TW power armor is one of the greatest combos that a pilot could pull off.

I never said a creature with a high PPE base would not be a pilot. I did say, however, that a caster would not USUALLY be a PA pilot. It would be simpler to just play a PA pilot with high PPE for a TW PA.

I have a good question; where are the OCC experience tables so I know how my players advance? I just went through the whole book again and there's a lot I don't agree with but one of the big issues is that I don't see any experience tables for advancement.

If the author of this book is paying attention to this thread can you sing out with the experience tables please?

Hi,I like to known some things about Black Market,that if they have it I will pic to get it.

1)What do you think is the Best Black Marketeer,s special abillity and why?

2)What to you think of the Black Market,s Factions and ther Npc,s will they make Good ongonig Bad Guys?

3)Do you Think Black Market is a Good Guild to making Criminal organization?