Geofront vs CS

[Nether]

That seems very thin in describing anything of substance. We arent talking about the CS vs (name of small village here), it is a army that is of equal or greater size to them.

If anything it just sounds like a "I like CS, therefore they beat the megaverse!" response.

The Geofront is going to have an airforce as well and if the OCCs are any indication of pattern they will also be superior to the CS airforce OCCs.

Also where does it suggest the CS would integrate or even use any non CS developed tech?

Really I'm sure you can back you claim with a page for the geofront air force right? Somehow geofront giving up their homeland goes against the official canon.

There is none as you know that, but all the canon harpies on these boards forget that they can still make logical conclusions on their own.

Such as, Geofront if a Golden Age tech holder, so you could surmise they would have nukes for eg. They were also the cream of the China military when it was founded, so you could surmise they would have airforce as well. The books dont talk about those elements so but neither do they talk about cities having plumbing, waterworks ext.

So if you want to debate only by canon, then how does any military survive let alone most in the game of Rifts? I mean, does canon tell us that they have sufficient power to light their city, food to feed all its people, does every CS citz have a bed to sleep in or heat for winter so they dont freeze to death? They must all stink horribly because where in the canon does it say they have showers or baths?

If you want to play only "where is the canon" then you need to explain far more than I which you cant back up. So fair to say a little bit of common sense applied here would lead you to this logic. We know the CS and many other major cities have these things, but it isnt mentioned in Canon. If you feel the Geofront wouldnt have an airforce because of description x then by all means mention it, but if canon is all you have to back up then it is pointless to have a friendly discussion about this with you.

I see this is giving stuff to geofront so they can win against CS , geo-front get non-canon stuff and CS gets only canon stuff, sound about right.

I think what he means is that we take the techonological level that the geo-front is established at and extrapolate it into a full army. Assuming that since the geo-front is such a large, advanced, and powerful army it is not difficult to guess that they would have some kind of airforce. Just because they haven't been fleshed out as much as the CS doesn't mean they are inferior. It would be more accurate to pit the geo-front against the RUE version of the CS in terms of variety in their respective arsenals.

This is common sense speaking.

@Mech

No one is just giving stuff out for free to one side or the other, but common sense lets us extrapolate (ty Johnny) they would prolly have an nukes / airforce just like we can extrapolate that the CS has heating and blankets so they dont freeze to death in the winter.
So far the China book gives us simular basics that the CS has in RUE.

So if you find you dont want to have to think outside the book, then in order to further this discussion / debate we would have to limit our content to the RUE vs China 2, otherwise we should just choose to disagree and not discuss this between us.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think what he means is that we take the techonological level that the geo-front is established at and extrapolate it into a full army. Assuming that since the geo-front is such a large, advanced, and powerful army it is not difficult to guess that they would have some kind of airforce. Just because they haven't been fleshed out as much as the CS doesn't mean they are inferior. It would be more accurate to pit the geo-front against the RUE version of the CS in terms of variety in their respective arsenals.

they have been underground for 300+ , an air force is something they don't have at this time, or experience aircraft pilots, if they come out the cave and gain ground , odds are they will build an air force, but as of right now no.
I have looked at every piece equipment geofront has, in WB 25 and rifter 28.
Black tiger great match for super samas or hellraiser, but against against skullsmasher not a chance for it
Red falcon against smiling jack maybe be a good fight, old model samas still be a good match, super samas or striker , one dead falcon
Gun dragon , is heavy armored and guns, but a couple of line backers eat the dragon.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

This is common sense speaking.

@Mech

No one is just giving stuff out for free to one side or the other, but common sense lets us extrapolate (ty Johnny) they would prolly have an nukes / airforce just like we can extrapolate that the CS has heating and blankets so they dont freeze to death in the winter.
So far the China book gives us simular basics that the CS has in RUE.

So if you find you dont want to have to think outside the book, then in order to further this discussion / debate we would have to limit our content to the RUE vs China 2, otherwise we should just choose to disagree and not discuss this between us.

oh so we are limiting the coalition equipment so geofront can win, sounds fair

[Mech-Viper Prime]

]

This is common sense speaking.

@Mech

No one is just giving stuff out for free to one side or the other, but common sense lets us extrapolate (ty Johnny) they would prolly have an nukes / airforce just like we can extrapolate that the CS has heating and blankets so they dont freeze to death in the winter.
So far the China book gives us simular basics that the CS has in RUE.

So if you find you dont want to have to think outside the book, then in order to further this discussion / debate we would have to limit our content to the RUE vs China 2, otherwise we should just choose to disagree and not discuss this between us.

I think it would be even more accurate to use the CWC versions of the RUE varities. Like the new weapons and armor and the new SAMAS suits. That way the CS doesn't get crippled for using the old style armor.

because the point of this entire thread is to make the CS lose not win

hey would prolly have an nukes / airforce just like we can extrapolate that the CS has heating and blankets

notice the level of tech listed here.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think what he means is that we take the techonological level that the geo-front is established at and extrapolate it into a full army. Assuming that since the geo-front is such a large, advanced, and powerful army it is not difficult to guess that they would have some kind of airforce. Just because they haven't been fleshed out as much as the CS doesn't mean they are inferior. It would be more accurate to pit the geo-front against the RUE version of the CS in terms of variety in their respective arsenals.

they have been underground for 300+ , an air force is something they don't have at this time, or experience aircraft pilots, if they come out the cave and gain ground , odds are they will build an air force, but as of right now no.
I have looked at every piece equipment geofront has, in WB 25 and rifter 28.
Black tiger great match for super samas or hellraiser, but against against skullsmasher not a chance for it
Red falcon against smiling jack maybe be a good fight, old model samas still be a good match, super samas or striker , one dead falcon
Gun dragon , is heavy armored and guns, but a couple of line backers eat the dragon.

All good, but the point is that it is slightly unfair that the geo-front gets only three whole pieces of mechanized infantry. As for an airforce, they may have been underground for 300+ years but their war has been above ground. Thats certainly reason enough to assume they have developed some kind of airpower. So my point is is that technically, by flavor-text, the geo-front is supposed to have a roughly equally powered military to the CS. Thereby their army could theoretically have equal variety to the CS. And IMO the only way to make it an accurate battle is to match them one for one for each piece of equipment. So black tiger = super SAM, red falcon = smiling jack or sky cycle, Gun dragon = Enforcer etc.

anybody can write a rifter article for the geofront and give them more equipment, but i see no need to handicapped the coalition if geofront is so powerful, handicapping coalition only proves the geofront isnt all its cracked up to be.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

]

This is common sense speaking.

@Mech

No one is just giving stuff out for free to one side or the other, but common sense lets us extrapolate (ty Johnny) they would prolly have an nukes / airforce just like we can extrapolate that the CS has heating and blankets so they dont freeze to death in the winter.
So far the China book gives us simular basics that the CS has in RUE.

So if you find you dont want to have to think outside the book, then in order to further this discussion / debate we would have to limit our content to the RUE vs China 2, otherwise we should just choose to disagree and not discuss this between us.

I think it would be even more accurate to use the CWC versions of the RUE varities. Like the new weapons and armor and the new SAMAS suits. That way the CS doesn't get crippled for using the old style armor.

because the point of this entire thread is to make the CS lose not win

If you want to be stubborn sure, but I think that the flavor text for both nations shows that they are supposed to be relatively equal in power. Just because the geo-front is less fleshed out doesn't mean that they are inferior. I really think this would all be more accurate as a pole rather as a discussion. Seeing as the entire situation is so far out there and the nations are supposed to be equally powered but one lacks the data to back that up.

nothing stops someone from writing about geofront and trying to get it in rifter.

[Giant2005]

Now honestly, I think the geo-front would win, because of the gun-master, thats it.

It isn't just the Gun Master.
Every citizen has military training on par with the CS Grunt with the addition of MDC skin and clothing to supplement their armor. The average CS Soldier is out-classed by the average Geofront civilian.
The Geofront Borgs are pretty insane too - a level 2 Geofront Borg can have an Autododge of +15. That is the sort of thing Juicers can only dream of.
As you said, the Gun Master is simply amazing. MVP is busy comparing Power Armors and such but that comparison isn't even necessary. A single Gun Master in EBA easily outmatches a Samas.
Their Special Forces Soldiers have access to the Mantis style Mystic Martial Art. They can summon an ecto-plasmic Power Armor to use whenever they want or can even dismount from it and have it fight alongside them.

The Geofront has a lot of advantages against the Colaition, the Coalition's only advantage is long range warfare and that is primarily due to them having more book time, not because the Geofront were too proud to bother with such tactics.

[Giant2005]

Now honestly, I think the geo-front would win, because of the gun-master, thats it.

It isn't just the Gun Master.
Every citizen has military training on par with the CS Grunt with the addition of MDC skin and clothing to supplement their armor. The average CS Soldier is out-classed by the average Geofront civilian.
The Geofront Borgs are pretty insane too - a level 2 Geofront Borg can have an Autododge of +15. That is the sort of thing Juicers can only dream of.
As you said, the Gun Master is simply amazing. MVP is busy comparing Power Armors and such but that comparison isn't even necessary. A single Gun Master in EBA easily outmatches a Samas.
Their Special Forces Soldiers have access to the Mantis style Mystic Martial Art. They can summon an ecto-plasmic Power Armor to use whenever they want or can even dismount from it and have it fight alongside them.

The Geofront has a lot of advantages against the Colaition, the Coalition's only advantage is long range warfare and that is primarily due to them having more book time, not because the Geofront were too proud to bother with such tactics.

I'm just terrified that the Gun Master can take a 1D4x100 SD rifle grenade and make it a 1D4x100 MD rifle grenade at the cost of like 2 ISP

In theory they could but in practice, no GM would ever allow such a thing .
Their main advantages the way I see it, is the fact that they have superior range to anything that isn't a missile or Boom Gun so kiting them isn't an option, their MDC skin, clothes, armor and potential for autododge make for some extreme resilience, and the ability to dual-wield Rifles and have more actions per melee than even Power Armor pilots gives them un-matched offensive capabilities.

Even without exploiting the SDC to MDC conversion they are far nastier than any one man the CS can place on the field of battle.

[Nether]

Now honestly, I think the geo-front would win, because of the gun-master, thats it.

It isn't just the Gun Master.
Every citizen has military training on par with the CS Grunt with the addition of MDC skin and clothing to supplement their armor. The average CS Soldier is out-classed by the average Geofront civilian.
The Geofront Borgs are pretty insane too - a level 2 Geofront Borg can have an Autododge of +15. That is the sort of thing Juicers can only dream of.
As you said, the Gun Master is simply amazing. MVP is busy comparing Power Armors and such but that comparison isn't even necessary. A single Gun Master in EBA easily outmatches a Samas.
Their Special Forces Soldiers have access to the Mantis style Mystic Martial Art. They can summon an ecto-plasmic Power Armor to use whenever they want or can even dismount from it and have it fight alongside them.

The Geofront has a lot of advantages against the Colaition, the Coalition's only advantage is long range warfare and that is primarily due to them having more book time, not because the Geofront were too proud to bother with such tactics.

This is very similar to what I was mentioning above as well.

One major factor I think would also be how the two nations operate diplomatically. CS only would want human allies, and like TS they could try to draft some dbee numbers.
But the Geofront is willing to ally with anyone, magic user, psychic, dbee ext as long as they arent super evil incarnate. They also seek to befriend / protect those weaker like the many villages ext. So once all the CS burbs got wind of this attitude and superior treatment / lifestyle, they would prolly lose alot of the burb population to Geofront. So once a war started, Geo could get Lazlo, New Lazlo, psyscape, cyber knights, syrials ext as allies whereas CS really can only get FQ as an ally. Though FQ GB forces are nothing to sneeze at though.

[Nether]

I also like both nations, but I am trying to be impartial in my judgement. Geo seems to have alot more going for it overall then what the CS could pull togather.

The CS being run by evil nut jobs that refuse to work with non human allies limits themselves greatly. So an evil nation of sorts that wont ally with any other nation except FQ who already turned from them once.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Has anyone pointed out, that the lack of airforce is probably purposeful?

How you gonna have an airforce underground guys? Where they going to fly, other than into the walls and or ceiling? I'm sure there's some space between buildings and all but you're not talking about high speed AIR force. By the time you crank something up to full speed you'd be full speed into a cavern wall.

So no, going "GOSH!! The group living underground in a cave for 300 years HAS to have an airforce" is not a given.

[Giant2005]

So once a war started, Geo could get Lazlo, New Lazlo, psyscape, cyber knights, syrials ext as allies whereas CS really can only get FQ as an ally. Though FQ GB forces are nothing to sneeze at though.

This is true but not within the confines of the question asked - the OP specifically limited it to just the Geofront and CS without any outside help.
Realistically, after Tolkeen, most nations would join a war against the CS if a powerful force like the Geofront showed up and proved the war was winnable.

[Giant2005]

Has anyone pointed out, that the lack of airforce is probably purposeful?

How you gonna have an airforce underground guys? Where they going to fly, other than into the walls and or ceiling? I'm sure there's some space between buildings and all but you're not talking about high speed AIR force. By the time you crank something up to full speed you'd be full speed into a cavern wall.

So no, going "GOSH!! The group living underground in a cave for 300 years HAS to have an airforce" is not a given.

I agree.
They obviously aren't going to have airports and such, jets aren't at all likely. Their main aerial support will come from Power Armor and they already have one statted out - statting out more isn't really necessary.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Has anyone pointed out, that the lack of airforce is probably purposeful?

How you gonna have an airforce underground guys? Where they going to fly, other than into the walls and or ceiling? I'm sure there's some space between buildings and all but you're not talking about high speed AIR force. By the time you crank something up to full speed you'd be full speed into a cavern wall.

So no, going "GOSH!! The group living underground in a cave for 300 years HAS to have an airforce" is not a given.

Well they already have a suit of flying armor. And beyond that, they fight above ground.

Thats like the equivalent of saying the just because splicers great houses are often below ground, they don't have an airforce. Which is untrue, seeing as they do have a giant flying monster built specifically for that purpose.

Power armor isn't the same as super sonic jets and what not, and no, they don't really go out side. not and be seen. Much less zipping around in the air and what not. You'd think they wouldn't be secret for long if they're cruising through the skys.

I did say zipping between buildings, maybe, but not full out airforce.

*shrugs* It's sort of a moot point. They don't have one via the book. Anything else is just speculation to change the equation.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So once a war started, Geo could get Lazlo, New Lazlo, psyscape, cyber knights, syrials ext as allies whereas CS really can only get FQ as an ally. Though FQ GB forces are nothing to sneeze at though.

This is true but not within the confines of the question asked - the OP specifically limited it to just the Geofront and CS without any outside help.
Realistically, after Tolkeen, most nations would join a war against the CS if a powerful force like the Geofront showed up and proved the war was winnable.

Why would all those groups suddenly team up with a strange invading army that shows up out of the blue and tries to kill millions of humans?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Has anyone pointed out, that the lack of airforce is probably purposeful?

How you gonna have an airforce underground guys? Where they going to fly, other than into the walls and or ceiling? I'm sure there's some space between buildings and all but you're not talking about high speed AIR force. By the time you crank something up to full speed you'd be full speed into a cavern wall.

So no, going "GOSH!! The group living underground in a cave for 300 years HAS to have an airforce" is not a given.

Well they already have a suit of flying armor. And beyond that, they fight above ground.

Thats like the equivalent of saying the just because splicers great houses are often below ground, they don't have an airforce. Which is untrue, seeing as they do have a giant flying monster built specifically for that purpose.

Power armor isn't the same as super sonic jets and what not, and no, they don't really go out side. not and be seen. Much less zipping around in the air and what not. You'd think they wouldn't be secret for long if they're cruising through the skys.

I did say zipping between buildings, maybe, but not full out airforce.

*shrugs* It's sort of a moot point. They don't have one via the book. Anything else is just speculation to change the equation.

Is the CS bomber super-sonic? I don't remember off the top of my head

If you're taking about the talon then yes it is

[Giant2005]

So once a war started, Geo could get Lazlo, New Lazlo, psyscape, cyber knights, syrials ext as allies whereas CS really can only get FQ as an ally. Though FQ GB forces are nothing to sneeze at though.

This is true but not within the confines of the question asked - the OP specifically limited it to just the Geofront and CS without any outside help.
Realistically, after Tolkeen, most nations would join a war against the CS if a powerful force like the Geofront showed up and proved the war was winnable.

Why would all those groups suddenly team up with a strange invading army that shows up out of the blue and tries to kill millions of humans?

Because after Tolkeen they are all terrified of the CS and worried that they are next. Even Free Quebec is still paranoid.
If some benevolent force shows up with a good chance of killing your enemies and removing your fear, you do what you can to make sure they succeed.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So once a war started, Geo could get Lazlo, New Lazlo, psyscape, cyber knights, syrials ext as allies whereas CS really can only get FQ as an ally. Though FQ GB forces are nothing to sneeze at though.

This is true but not within the confines of the question asked - the OP specifically limited it to just the Geofront and CS without any outside help.
Realistically, after Tolkeen, most nations would join a war against the CS if a powerful force like the Geofront showed up and proved the war was winnable.

Why would all those groups suddenly team up with a strange invading army that shows up out of the blue and tries to kill millions of humans?

Because after Tolkeen they are all terrified of the CS and worried that they are next. Even Free Quebec is still paranoid.
If some benevolent force shows up with a good chance of killing your enemies and removing your fear, you do what you can to make sure they succeed.

But it's not a benevolent force. It's coming to kill millions of humans who, for their part, haven't done anything to the folks in china. Nor are Lazlo, new lazlo, psyscape, nor the cyberknights offensively aggressive, much less on the scale of teaming up to take out millions of humans.

Would never happen.

"In defense of another" some of them might pitch in. "To aid in an invading army bent on killing people from across the planet"? No.

[Giant2005]

But it's not a benevolent force. It's coming to kill millions of humans who, for their part, haven't done anything to the folks in china. Nor are Lazlo, new lazlo, psyscape, nor the cyberknights offensively aggressive, much less on the scale of teaming up to take out millions of humans.

Would never happen.

"In defense of another" some of them might pitch in. "To aid in an invading army bent on killing people from across the planet"? No.

Would you make the same argument if they were wiping out the Xiticix and not the Coalition?

[Slight001]

It's important to also note that unlike most groups we have solid numbers of what the Geofront has been able to manufacture in 300 years... 100 years for the Gun Dragon.

Active Military: 1.4 million
Reserve Military: 4.5 million (text says to liberate china... so they might be resistant to the idea of fighting for soil not "their own"...)
- Source pg 121

PA numbers:
Black Tiger = ~6,123 + 28,420 in reserve (pg 150)
- Speed: 55 mph running
Red Falcon = ~3062 + 14,210 in reserve (pg 150)
- Speed: 60 mph ground, 300 mph flying (12 hours max flight time)
Gun Dragon = ~214 + 1926 in reserve (pg 154 "only a dozen have seen action over the years, mainly to test the unit..." and "However, even after the Geofront makes it's move, the Gun Dragon will be used sparingly, the majority (90%) held in reserve as a secret weapon.")
- Speed: 30 mph ground

Body Armor numbers: (pg 148-150)
Standard Brigandine = 500,000
Heavy Brigandine = 100,000
Shadow Armor = everyone... apparently it's also their standard uniform.
Demon Skin = everyone...
Demon Skin Armor = ?

In 300 years that's not a lot of accomplishment... it's also worth noting that the Black Tigers FF is apparently so hard to manufacture that it's only been in the last few years that all of the BT's have been fitted with one. It's absurd to think, that with the cannon provided, that the Geofront can just magically whip up an air force and suddenly increase their numbers of mecha and armor to such levels as to be competitive with the Coalition.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

It's important to also note that unlike most groups we have solid numbers of what the Geofront has been able to manufacture in 300 years... 100 years for the Gun Dragon.

Active Military: 1.4 million
Reserve Military: 4.5 million (text says to liberate china... so they might be resistant to the idea of fighting for soil not "their own"...)
- Source pg 121

PA numbers:
Black Tiger = ~6,123 + 28,420 in reserve (pg 150)
- Speed: 55 mph running
Red Falcon = ~3062 + 14,210 in reserve (pg 150)
- Speed: 60 mph ground, 300 mph flying (12 hours max flight time)
Gun Dragon = ~214 + 1926 in reserve (pg 154 "only a dozen have seen action over the years, mainly to test the unit..." and "However, even after the Geofront makes it's move, the Gun Dragon will be used sparingly, the majority (90%) held in reserve as a secret weapon.")
- Speed: 30 mph ground

Body Armor numbers: (pg 148-150)
Standard Brigandine = 500,000
Heavy Brigandine = 100,000
Shadow Armor = everyone... apparently it's also their standard uniform.
Demon Skin = everyone...
Demon Skin Armor = ?

In 300 years that's not a lot of accomplishment... it's also worth noting that the Black Tigers FF is apparently so hard to manufacture that it's only been in the last few years that all of the BT's have been fitted with one. It's absurd to think, that with the cannon provided, that the Geofront can just magically whip up an air force and suddenly increase their numbers of mecha and armor to such levels as to be competitive with the Coalition.

the number dont matter because they magically increase to match the coalition numbers along with the aircraft that comes out of nowhere, and maybe an ocean going navy too because this are things is what people living in a cave city have hidden.

[Giant2005]

Active Military: 1.4 million
Reserve Military: 4.5 million (text says to liberate china... so they might be resistant to the idea of fighting for soil not "their own"...)
- Source pg 121

You make that sounds miniscule but it really isn't.
Firstly that isn't the entirety of their military trained personnel, that is just the number in their current rotation. According to page 120 "Every man and woman above the age of 21 has served in the army at one time or another"
The entire adult population has military training and would obviously be willing to take up arms if their lives depended on it. I have no idea what proportion of their population would be adults but in a population of 17.6 million, that would be a significant number.

Now let's look at the Coalition and their army.
According to Aftermath (a simple addition of all of the population listings for all of the states( they end up with a population of just under 9 million. The old SB1 numbers would put it just under 12 million, technically the most recent numbers should be held as canon which would be the 9 million but to help keep this a fair fight, we will be generous and take the 12 million number.
Of course, that doesn't help us determine their army size...
What does determine their army size is CWC page 44. The CS armed forces represent 10% of their population which would result in an army of 1.2 million.

Even ignoring the fact that 100% of the adults within the Geofront have superior military training than that of the majority of the CS soldiers, if they were to field just their 5.9m soldiers that are either in the field or ready to be called into active duty, they would outnumber the CS by almost 5 to 1.
Considering the fact that each Geofront Soldier is easily a match for any 1 CS Soldier and could reasonably expect to take out 2 or more, the Geofront army could defeat the CS army somewhere between 5-10 times without too much trouble, assuming everything is relative.

[Slight001]

They might have the numbers, but they don't have the equipment or manufacturing capacity to outfit those millions nor do they have the mobility to counter the CS's indirect fire and AOE advantage.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

They might have the numbers, but they don't have the equipment or manufacturing capacity to outfit those millions nor do they have the mobility to counter the CS's indirect fire and AOE advantage.

Because they are too proud for that, big question, who is going to tell the republicians the Chinese are coming, and tell the dog boys, they eat dog meat. Or the wearing demon skins, I'm sure that will peak someone's interest.

[masslegion]

The geofront has grown into a fearsome military that rivals Triax or the Coalition States in its readiness, innovations and size... The Geofront Army has been developing strategies and defenses for the last 300 years

1. Why say Geofront is equivalent to both Triax and the CS when these two (CS & Triax) are not equivalent? Triax and the NGR are clearly stronger, more advanced and more powerful than the CS. They, the NGR, do face greater opposition and fight everyday for their survival against hordes of supernatural sub-demon armies. One could argue that this comparision is made because Geofront's "fearsome" military strength and power lies somewhere between the CS and Triax. This would be logical otherwise why not only compare Geofront against the CS only. A comparison of their capabilities against only the CS could lead to an argument of who is more or less powerful, but when Geofront is compared against the CS and a superior force to the CS, again I have to say that overall this means they would have to be considered somewhere in-between the two even if this means they are only ever so slightly ahead of the CS.

2. Geofront has the courage to face the overwhelming odds. I think there should be no argument that if the CS was placed in China it could not cope against the Yama Kings and w/e else is terrible over there. The CS survives and expands because by comparison NA is relatively safe. Geofront now has what it considers sufficient power to attack a TERRIBLE ARMY of Godlike beings and you want to say that they don't stand a chance against the CS. Honestly I don't know who would win, but following the statement above which is cannon it seems silly at best to think the CS would wipe the floor with them,

3. China II devotes a whopping - 43 pages to the overall to Geofront and 17 pages to the gear/weapons available to them. The CS has an entire book devoted to almost nothing other than gear and weapons not to mention countless other additions in other world books. Rightly so, the CS is palladium's bread and butter of Rifts, by far one of the most significantly popular pro/antagonist. Fans who read the above quote must assume Geofront has anything and everything not mentioned in cannon to bring them up at least equal to the CS, because the overarching cannon statement in quotes says so, and very little has been detailed about them.

[Nether]

I can accept that the Geofront might not have much of an airforce due to current situation, but the Geofront even before the cataclysm, one of its major contributors was the CAC (china aerospace company) which would suggest they would have some type of aircraft. Then the Geofront was designed as a next gen golden tech massive military base, and mixed with a aerospace agency I find it hard to believe they wouldnt have a airforce.

But even putting aside an airforce as I can accept that possiblity for this, but it doesnt change that they are a much bigger army and with superior equivalent occ's. But also when I look at the CS Occ's compared to many other men at arms out there, I think that they are lacking because a good many other basic military men at arms Occs have some bonuses. So i would also think that the CS troops would have a little more than they do already for training.

I think there is too many suffering from the CS blinders. Remove your passion for the CS and look at it logically.

Most things are in the Geofront favor, and I suspect when Wujick designed the Geofront he built them that way on purpose, to be a top dog military.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I can accept that the Geofront might not have much of an airforce due to current situation, but the Geofront even before the cataclysm, one of its major contributors was the CAC (china aerospace company) which would suggest they would have some type of aircraft. Then the Geofront was designed as a next gen golden tech massive military base, and mixed with a aerospace agency I find it hard to believe they wouldnt have a airforce.

But even putting aside an airforce as I can accept that possiblity for this, but it doesnt change that they are a much bigger army and with superior equivalent occ's. But also when I look at the CS Occ's compared to many other men at arms out there, I think that they are lacking because a good many other basic military men at arms Occs have some bonuses. So i would also think that the CS troops would have a little more than they do already for training.

I think there is too many suffering from the CS blinders. Remove your passion for the CS and look at it logically.

Most things are in the Geofront favor, and I suspect when Wujick designed the Geofront he built them that way on purpose, to be a top dog military.

given how geofront was written with nothing bad, odds are it was made to appeal to the chinese market, " look you guys are great in rifts, you want to play rifts here look the chinese are powerful and good in rifts"

[masslegion]

The geofront has grown into a fearsome military that rivals Triax or the Coalition States in its readiness, innovations and size... The Geofront Army has been developing strategies and defenses for the last 300 years

1. Why say Geofront is equivalent to both Triax and the CS when these two (CS & Triax) are not equivalent? Triax and the NGR are clearly stronger, more advanced and more powerful than the CS. They, the NGR, do face greater opposition and fight everyday for their survival against hordes of supernatural sub-demon armies. One could argue that this comparision is made because Geofront's "fearsome" military strength and power lies somewhere between the CS and Triax. This would be logical otherwise why not only compare Geofront against the CS only. A comparison of their capabilities against only the CS could lead to an argument of who is more or less powerful, but when Geofront is compared against the CS and a superior force to the CS, again I have to say that overall this means they would have to be considered somewhere in-between the two even if this means they are only ever so slightly ahead of the CS.

2. Geofront has the courage to face the overwhelming odds. I think there should be no argument that if the CS was placed in China it could not cope against the Yama Kings and w/e else is terrible over there. The CS survives and expands because by comparison NA is relatively safe. Geofront now has what it considers sufficient power to attack a TERRIBLE ARMY of Godlike beings and you want to say that they don't stand a chance against the CS. Honestly I don't know who would win, but following the statement above which is cannon it seems silly at best to think the CS would wipe the floor with them,

3. China II devotes a whopping - 43 pages to the overall to Geofront and 17 pages to the gear/weapons available to them. The CS has an entire book devoted to almost nothing other than gear and weapons not to mention countless other additions in other world books. Rightly so, the CS is palladium's bread and butter of Rifts, by far one of the most significantly popular pro/antagonist. Fans who read the above quote must assume Geofront has anything and everything not mentioned in cannon to bring them up at least equal to the CS, because the overarching cannon statement in quotes says so, and very little has been detailed about them.

I think it is funny this "in cannon statement" is not addressed.

[Slight001]

You do know that some of us are at work and with out our books to confirm the text and associated text to respond properly to your claims. more importantly I'm on my phone right now... makes it rather hard to properly break down a post into manigible bits for a proper per subject counter argument.

I will say this though don't go throwing out accusations of CS favoritism and the wearing of blinders... because that concept works both ways. That and crap like that makes me start thinking about that report button.

[Slight001]

Anyone else get the feeling that we have all stepped into a pointless debate that can never really have a clear cut winner?

There is a winner here... insanity... foolishly doing the same damned thing over and over again and expecting it to turn out differently...

In this case foolishly believing that people can look past their hatred and favortism and see nothing more then the cold hard stats...