Northern Gun 1 & 2

azazel1024 · Unread post by **azazel1024** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:05 am

No, I'll deffinitely say they can't/won't do it.

They haven't gotten a book out, that I can remember, after Thanksgiving in years. I doubt anything is going to change. The last few years we have had everything from "the printer's schedule is full until next year, so we are going to focus on grab bags and other stuff until then" with Lemuria last year; which strangely took another almost 4 months to finish. Disingenuous to claim you could get it to print "if it just wasn't for the printer being so busy" and then take 4 more months to finish it. The year before, they just didn't have a book out with no excuses. The couple of years before that I think it varied from personal issues to "too busy" to get anything out.

I think we will see VK:SB1, but it is pretty obvious it isn't terribly close to being done. Kevin has been talking for the last 6-7 months about getting great new ideas for it, writting snipits and having other writers contributing more material to it. "Almost done" when VK revised came out sounds not even close (in seriousness though, we all get inspiration later sometimes, so that is excusable to me. Why it has taken more than a year though after it was nearly done originally...well...less so).

I will have to say, we do all sometimes make mistakes or forget things. However, it does seem a little odd that you could miss a 30+ page section of a book for editing and submission. I assume by that that PB doesn't send it as one file. Or if they do that is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of (and if it takes 2 weeks to edit 30-40 pages, man I can see why it takes them so long to get a book out. 2 weeks x 30 pages is roughly 2 months per book for editing and tweaking for PBs average size book).

As mention, the holidays are a busy time for Kevin personally and PB in general with things like Grab bags, staff members who probably want to spend at least a little time with other friends and with family, etc.

I think PB is going to take most of November to get VK:SB1 to print and I doubt very, very much there will be a whole lot done on NG1 in December. I am sure there will be a little work, but I highly doubt they'll (Kevin) will be able to actually get it finished, to print and back before the year closes. Realistically I bet mid January before it is SENT to the printer. NG2 maybe before March for a finish (but not back from printer) date.

Well, maybe next year we'll get 5-6 new books.

I shan't hold my breath.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:17 am

With HG's rubber stamp approval process - I have no fear that Kevin will be able to get Genesis Pits out before the end of the year. Will it be quality? I can't say - the work for RT has gone down hill. I am not thrilled with Black Market at all. So I can't say for sure that it will be worth the price of the paper it's written on.

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:02 pm

enhancer wrote:
flatline wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:I have already decided that I won't buy anything new from the company for a long time because of their reluctance to update the system. I will keep checking back, year to year, until they do so but I will not buy anything until then.

Even if they did revamp the system and managed to create something really good, it would offer them essentially no competitive advantage since every other game also has a decent system. But most other games have lackluster settings or, even if they started with good settings, drove them into the ground by rehashing them with every update to the system.

Systems are a dime a dozen.

Good settings are hard to find and creating good settings happens to be something that Kevin has a knack for.

Why should Kevin waste time revamping the system when it's his settings that set his books apart from the rest of the industry?

I would actually be extremely happy if Kevin abandoned Rifts Earth entirely and focused on creating new settings with no more than 3 or 4 books per setting. He can continue to use his mediocre system and I will continue to ignore his system while I adapt his wonderful settings for my own purposes.

--flatline

I've always been under the impression that it's his system that's keeping them down. Palladium easily has the most imaginative and fun books and settings I've come across. They have tons of books to chose from. Then why are their games so rarely played? Why isn't it Rifts that's a byword for roleplaying? How come no one has heard of it? Why do so many people buy the books just to read them? It's because their system makes gaming a chore. Don't get me wrong, I'll always slug through it to play, but getting other people into can be hard. Combat is slow and unbalanced. Character creation takes hours(so do NPCs). Rules are scattered all over the place. I know everything can be house ruled, but should you have to for nearly everything? Palladium's worlds are the stuff that would make awesome media in print(novels, and yes I know I own the ones that got made), television and movies. But the only way to do that is to start from the ground up, with players falling over themselves to play next, dodging work and school, buying everything in sight. The pen and paper world is getting shoved aside from video games. It's hard to convince someone to spend 8 hours playing something he can't see when he can turn on a console whenever he wants and play with stunning graphics. The only way to do that is to make the thought of playing Palladium irresistible, and their system is an unnecessary obstacle to that.

Nicely stated.

EmeraldToucanet · Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:13 pm

enhancer wrote:
flatline wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:I have already decided that I won't buy anything new from the company for a long time because of their reluctance to update the system. I will keep checking back, year to year, until they do so but I will not buy anything until then.

Even if they did revamp the system and managed to create something really good, it would offer them essentially no competitive advantage since every other game also has a decent system. But most other games have lackluster settings or, even if they started with good settings, drove them into the ground by rehashing them with every update to the system.

Systems are a dime a dozen.

Good settings are hard to find and creating good settings happens to be something that Kevin has a knack for.

Why should Kevin waste time revamping the system when it's his settings that set his books apart from the rest of the industry?

I would actually be extremely happy if Kevin abandoned Rifts Earth entirely and focused on creating new settings with no more than 3 or 4 books per setting. He can continue to use his mediocre system and I will continue to ignore his system while I adapt his wonderful settings for my own purposes.

--flatline

I've always been under the impression that it's his system that's keeping them down. Palladium easily has the most imaginative and fun books and settings I've come across. They have tons of books to chose from. Then why are their games so rarely played? Why isn't it Rifts that's a byword for roleplaying? How come no one has heard of it? Why do so many people buy the books just to read them? It's because their system makes gaming a chore. Don't get me wrong, I'll always slug through it to play, but getting other people into can be hard. Combat is slow and unbalanced. Character creation takes hours(so do NPCs). Rules are scattered all over the place. I know everything can be house ruled, but should you have to for nearly everything? Palladium's worlds are the stuff that would make awesome media in print(novels, and yes I know I own the ones that got made), television and movies. But the only way to do that is to start from the ground up, with players falling over themselves to play next, dodging work and school, buying everything in sight. The pen and paper world is getting shoved aside from video games. It's hard to convince someone to spend 8 hours playing something he can't see when he can turn on a console whenever he wants and play with stunning graphics. The only way to do that is to make the thought of playing Palladium irresistible, and their system is an unnecessary obstacle to that.

The amount of time it takes to make a character is an issue. But it's your comment about how rules are so scattered really hits the nail on the head. We really need is a really well organized core rulebook, and one which gives us a way of simplifying character creation as well. The character creation issue could also be helped if someone would make a really nice character creator program, but I don't see that being allowed. In fact, I'd love to be a part of making a character creator program, but as I recently mentioned in another thread, pretty sure that would violate copyright. Unfortunately I don't see Kevin taking enough of an interest in it to support legitimately doing one.

My experience isn't that Rifts has always been rarely played though, I knew lots of people that played it in the 90's, but from then on interest in playing it declined. It went from being about as popular a game as D&D (at least where I lived anyways, I can't speak for elsewhere) to hardly anyone playing it.

Of course Wizards with D&D eventually ended up making some mistakes, and I know lots of people abandoned them too, but not to the extent I've seen with Rifts. There's some signs that D&D's mistakes *might* be corrected, though I'm not entirely convinced. While Palladium seems to be picking up some steam again, I don't see signs that they are correcting some of their big mistakes. However I did abandon D&D to start playing Rifts again (and some other games here and there) because what they've come out with recently is just soooo bad so maybe that says something positive about Palladium after all?

Balabanto · Unread post by **Balabanto** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:04 pm

You guys are all ignoring the key point of the problem.

Here it is.

When I sell you something in my business, I obey this key rule. Under-promise and overdeliver.

If I think the book will be released in December, I tell people it will be released the following March.

If I think the book will be released in March, I tell them May.

People are always willing to be thrilled when something is early. They're always angry when it's late.

This is ALL they need to do. Forget about which products are coming out when. That doesn't matter. Constantly apologizing to your customers is not going to win you any brownie points after a while.

I'm one of the top salespeople in my company. Trust me. This works. It's all you have to do. Clearly the product is good enough to keep people coming back. All you have to do is deliver the product within the time frame stated.

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:47 am

Balabanto wrote:You guys are all ignoring the key point of the problem.

Here it is.

When I sell you something in my business, I obey this key rule. Under-promise and overdeliver.

If I think the book will be released in December, I tell people it will be released the following March.

If I think the book will be released in March, I tell them May.

People are always willing to be thrilled when something is early. They're always angry when it's late.

This is ALL they need to do. Forget about which products are coming out when. That doesn't matter. Constantly apologizing to your customers is not going to win you any brownie points after a while.

I'm one of the top salespeople in my company. Trust me. This works. It's all you have to do. Clearly the product is good enough to keep people coming back. All you have to do is deliver the product within the time frame stated.

That's the problem. If Kevin thinks a book is going to be out by December, he says so. He really believes his own estimates. When it is late, he blames everyone and everything but himself. It was mentioned either earlier in this thread or another that what really needs to happen is to only announce new books when they are done and edited and ready to ship to printers. If they can build up maybe 6 or 7 books ready for the printer, they can keep releasing them while they woek on more books.

Of course that strategy would require they release nothing for about a year.

No the two real big problems have been stated before. (1) Kevin needs to stop being the log jam for the books and delegate some of the work. (2) There needs to be less distraction from one failed project to another and concentrate on books. The second is what I believe is the more important. Too many grand ideas and they can't afford to do these projects until they can start getting books in the customers hands on time and with consistency.

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:43 pm

Just read today's Murmur, and I groaned as I did. Why? Because they spent almost an entire day doing work on a 2012/2013 catalog. Books are overdue and they spend time working on more unnecessary projects? What a waste of time.

Daeglan · Unread post by **Daeglan** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:55 pm

Sureshot wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:I will admit that for the most part, it is all speculation. However, things like book release schedule delays are based off of evidence of Palladium's records over the last 10 years or so.

Its not like 2012 like other years was a slow year. The slow releases and missed release dates have been happening for the last 10 years. If not even longer.

Palladium was known for not hitting deadlines in the early 90's when I used to go to my FLGS all the time.

Daeglan · Unread post by **Daeglan** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:15 pm

enhancer wrote:
flatline wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:I have already decided that I won't buy anything new from the company for a long time because of their reluctance to update the system. I will keep checking back, year to year, until they do so but I will not buy anything until then.

Even if they did revamp the system and managed to create something really good, it would offer them essentially no competitive advantage since every other game also has a decent system. But most other games have lackluster settings or, even if they started with good settings, drove them into the ground by rehashing them with every update to the system.

Systems are a dime a dozen.

Good settings are hard to find and creating good settings happens to be something that Kevin has a knack for.

Why should Kevin waste time revamping the system when it's his settings that set his books apart from the rest of the industry?

I would actually be extremely happy if Kevin abandoned Rifts Earth entirely and focused on creating new settings with no more than 3 or 4 books per setting. He can continue to use his mediocre system and I will continue to ignore his system while I adapt his wonderful settings for my own purposes.

--flatline

I've always been under the impression that it's his system that's keeping them down. Palladium easily has the most imaginative and fun books and settings I've come across. They have tons of books to chose from. Then why are their games so rarely played? Why isn't it Rifts that's a byword for roleplaying? How come no one has heard of it? Why do so many people buy the books just to read them? It's because their system makes gaming a chore. Don't get me wrong, I'll always slug through it to play, but getting other people into can be hard. Combat is slow and unbalanced. Character creation takes hours(so do NPCs). Rules are scattered all over the place. I know everything can be house ruled, but should you have to for nearly everything? Palladium's worlds are the stuff that would make awesome media in print(novels, and yes I know I own the ones that got made), television and movies. But the only way to do that is to start from the ground up, with players falling over themselves to play next, dodging work and school, buying everything in sight. The pen and paper world is getting shoved aside from video games. It's hard to convince someone to spend 8 hours playing something he can't see when he can turn on a console whenever he wants and play with stunning graphics. The only way to do that is to make the thought of playing Palladium irresistible, and their system is an unnecessary obstacle to that.

I feel the same way. I tried to run Rifts once. it was like slogging through molassas. Trying to find rules. Trying to run combat and finding it to be a battle of attrition with no real way to speed it up. Making a character is also really slow.

I love the worlds. But i am more likely to transfer the system to gurps. Because the system is that bad. Kevin himself has said you should house rule the system... that tells me the system is broken.

earthhawk · Unread post by **earthhawk** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:37 pm

Icefalcon wrote:Just read today's Murmur, and I groaned as I did. Why? Because they spent almost an entire day doing work on a 2012/2013 catalog. Books are overdue and they spend time working on more unnecessary projects? What a waste of time.

I think they are trying to "sandbag" their sales for next year. Why released all of your material in one year and have nothing left for the next? This is probably why books are always late. At this point I the delays are done purposefully. It's the classic carrot on a stick routine, or better yet keep them wanting for more. Laughable.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:40 am

earthhawk wrote:I think they are trying to "sandbag" their sales for next year. Why released all of your material in one year and have nothing left for the next? This is probably why books are always late. At this point I the delays are done purposefully. It's the classic carrot on a stick routine, or better yet keep them wanting for more. Laughable.

If the majority of the fans never say anything negative about it then imo they deserve whatever PB does to them. The only real voices of dissent are myself and a few others. If I was running a company and my fanbase never said anything when I made mistakes or broke promises why the hell would I change anything.

Daeglan wrote:
Palladium was known for not hitting deadlines in the early 90's when I used to go to my FLGS all the time.

I know. Except in the 90s it was PB spending their own money to pay for everything. With NG 1 & 2 they asked fans to finance the book through a kickstarter. Which was successful and somehow they still managed to screw that up.

Daeglan · Unread post by **Daeglan** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:46 am

Might be that people have gotten banned for doing so.

ffranceschi · Unread post by **ffranceschi** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:37 am

Sureshot wrote:If the majority of the fans never say anything negative about it then imo they deserve whatever PB does to them. The only real voices of dissent are myself and a few others. If I was running a company and my fanbase never said anything when I made mistakes or broke promises why the hell would I change anything.

Don't get me wrong: I really want both NG books right now BUT I have tons of other material to read (other PB games that I didn't have time to properly enjoy), watch (TV series: Last Resort, Arrow, The Walking Dead, etc.) and read again (everything RIFTS and SPLICERS) and my time is limited so why complain or say anything negative...they are going to release them eventually and I am going to have the enjoyment for what I have paid in advance. Once again, I want the books NOW and I think they should get them as soon as possible and I think it is a bad move if they couldn't finish them on time for Christmas but from my point of view: "Complaining is FUTILE!".
By the way, I am the Ultimate Benefactor for NG1 and Benefactor for NG2 (and Benefactor for Lemuria too!) so I have lots of money invested in both projects! So I DO CARE!

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:46 am

Well you do care FF. Imo your in the minority like me and others. Otherwise it seems the fans are not only willing to throw money at kevins. They are willing to wait 5-10 years without complaining.

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:20 pm

Things will only change when people start voting with their money. In this case, it would mean not financing any future Megaversal Insider offers. By not participating and then waiting for the book to actually be printed before purchasing it, it would show Kevin that he cannot leave those books for whenever he feels like getting to them.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:12 pm

Icefalcon wrote:Things will only change when people start voting with their money. In this case, it would mean not financing any future Megaversal Insider offers. By not participating and then waiting for the book to actually be printed before purchasing it, it would show Kevin that he cannot leave those books for whenever he feels like getting to them.

Thing is, that's a double edged sword. Kevin and Alex are still convinced ebooks and kindles, and Ipads are just a fad that are going to suddenly dry up. If you stop funding the PDF's and everything they'll point to that being "Proof that Ebooks don't sell!!! TOLD YA SO! TECHNOLOGY BAD!!" Not "Hey we've screwed up almost ----every----- release date for over a decade and people are finally tired of it"

ffranceschi · Unread post by **ffranceschi** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:34 pm

Icefalcon wrote:Things will only change when people start voting with their money. In this case, it would mean not financing any future Megaversal Insider offers. By not participating and then waiting for the book to actually be printed before purchasing it, it would show Kevin that he cannot leave those books for whenever he feels like getting to them.

"Hurting" them but not participating in the crowd funding is plain wrong. We must voice our opinions here, like Sureshot or I (both want the NG books now, no doubt about it), and hope that with the manpower that they have, they could accomplish it. We must voice our opinions WITHOUT hurting or attacking the source of our enjoyment or hobby because the alternative could be worse than our actual reality. Support PB, voice your opinion (anything that you have to say with respect is ok) and hope for the best!

earthhawk · Unread post by **earthhawk** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:21 pm

ffranceschi wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:Things will only change when people start voting with their money. In this case, it would mean not financing any future Megaversal Insider offers. By not participating and then waiting for the book to actually be printed before purchasing it, it would show Kevin that he cannot leave those books for whenever he feels like getting to them.

"Hurting" them but not participating in the crowd funding is plain wrong. We must voice our opinions here, like Sureshot or I (both want the NG books now, no doubt about it), and hope that with the manpower that they have, they could accomplish it. We must voice our opinions WITHOUT hurting or attacking the source of our enjoyment or hobby because the alternative could be worse than our actual reality. Support PB, voice your opinion (anything that you have to say with respect is ok) and hope for the best!

Sorry, but I don't agree with this statement. In our society choosing whether or not to purchase a company's product is your best bet to get your voice heard. My biggest issue is not that the books are delayed, because we all knew they would, is that the specific problem of delays were supposed to be addressed by the Megaversal Insider offering. Customers have purchased over $90k in Megaversal Insider product this year alone, yet we have the same delays with the same excuses that we've heard for the last ten years. Remember, customers are not setting these deadlines, Palladium and Kevin are. So yeah, it's absolutely your choice to become a benefactor, get your name in a book as a participant (hopefully they took the time spell your name right), and sit back and wait for the book to get released (whenever that may be). Others have decided to voice concern in Palladium's practice of over-promise and under-deliver. Either way it's your choice.

ffranceschi · Unread post by **ffranceschi** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:37 pm

earthhawk wrote:
ffranceschi wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:Things will only change when people start voting with their money. In this case, it would mean not financing any future Megaversal Insider offers. By not participating and then waiting for the book to actually be printed before purchasing it, it would show Kevin that he cannot leave those books for whenever he feels like getting to them.

"Hurting" them but not participating in the crowd funding is plain wrong. We must voice our opinions here, like Sureshot or I (both want the NG books now, no doubt about it), and hope that with the manpower that they have, they could accomplish it. We must voice our opinions WITHOUT hurting or attacking the source of our enjoyment or hobby because the alternative could be worse than our actual reality. Support PB, voice your opinion (anything that you have to say with respect is ok) and hope for the best!

Sorry, but I don't agree with this statement. In our society choosing whether or not to purchase a company's product is your best bet to get your voice heard. My biggest issue is not that the books are delayed, because we all knew they would, is that the specific problem of delays were supposed to be addressed by the Megaversal Insider offering. Customers have purchased over $90k in Megaversal Insider product this year alone, yet we have the same delays with the same excuses that we've heard for the last ten years. Remember, customers are not setting these deadlines, Palladium and Kevin are. So yeah, it's absolutely your choice to become a benefactor, get your name in a book as a participant (hopefully they took the time spell your name right), and sit back and wait for the book to get released (whenever that may be). Others have decided to voice concern in Palladium's practice of over-promise and under-deliver. Either way it's your choice.

I respect your opinion.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:42 pm

Friends, I understand (and share) your frustrations. And I'm glad that you've been able to let off some pent up tension in this thread, but please remember that the full time Palladium staff rarely read topics in this forum for a variety of legitimate reasons.

If you really want to express your complaints to Palladium, I recommend you write a letter to the company. Yes, an actual snail-mail letter. Not an email or a Facebook post. Physical letters carry more significance.

I'm not discouraging anyone from letting out a little rant online, but if you want to make the biggest impact, a letter is the way to go.

Good Gaming,
Mack

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:46 pm

Mack wrote:Friends, I understand (and share) your frustrations. And I'm glad that you've been able to let off some pent up tension in this thread, but please remember that the full time Palladium staff rarely read topics in this forum for a variety of legitimate reasons.

If you really want to express your complaints to Palladium, I recommend you write a letter to the company. Yes, an actual snail-mail letter. Not an email or a Facebook post. Physical letters carry more significance.

I'm not discouraging anyone from letting out a little rant online, but if you want to make the biggest impact, a letter is the way to go.

Good Gaming,
Mack

Not a bad idea Mack. Thanks for the suggestion.

Out of curiosity, aren't the Moderators supposed to bring things such as this to the company's attention also?

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:25 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:Things will only change when people start voting with their money. In this case, it would mean not financing any future Megaversal Insider offers. By not participating and then waiting for the book to actually be printed before purchasing it, it would show Kevin that he cannot leave those books for whenever he feels like getting to them.

Thing is, that's a double edged sword. Kevin and Alex are still convinced ebooks and kindles, and Ipads are just a fad that are going to suddenly dry up. If you stop funding the PDF's and everything they'll point to that being "Proof that Ebooks don't sell!!! TOLD YA SO! TECHNOLOGY BAD!!" Not "Hey we've screwed up almost ----every----- release date for over a decade and people are finally tired of it"

As I am not concerned with PDF's, it does not bother me. Not paying into the Insider offers will tell them that customers are angry with them. If we send them letters and e-mails as to why, it is their own problem if they blame it on something else.

I am not saying that PDF's should not be made available. What I am saying is that there are many ways to show the company what you want. The most effective is by putting your money where it does the most good. I will still purchase books, just when they are finally released. I will not participate in anymore Insider offers. If everyone or even most of the people who participated in the previous Insider offers did the same, it would send a very loud message to Palladium that we are angry. Heck, if you are still afraid that it will mean they say the problem is PDF's, then maybe everyone should ONLY go in for the PDF's. Yes, it might mean they do not make their goal but it will also show what direction the fans want to go in.

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:36 pm

ffranceschi wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:Things will only change when people start voting with their money. In this case, it would mean not financing any future Megaversal Insider offers. By not participating and then waiting for the book to actually be printed before purchasing it, it would show Kevin that he cannot leave those books for whenever he feels like getting to them.

"Hurting" them but not participating in the crowd funding is plain wrong. We must voice our opinions here, like Sureshot or I (both want the NG books now, no doubt about it), and hope that with the manpower that they have, they could accomplish it. We must voice our opinions WITHOUT hurting or attacking the source of our enjoyment or hobby because the alternative could be worse than our actual reality. Support PB, voice your opinion (anything that you have to say with respect is ok) and hope for the best!

Palladium does not listen to people through the forums. They very rarely have.

I may be a fan of the game but it is not the only game I play. Heck, it is not even the most popular game for me or any of the groups I have played with. If Palladium cannot be bother with doing ANYTHING to bring the company out of dire straights, then why should we continue to support their failings? It is a business and we are its customers. In EVERY business model, you need the customers more than they need you. I am one of those customers, I tried supporting them through 2 Insider offers because it was supposed to fix issues with book releases. They failed to uphold their end of the bargain. They made (mostly through Kevin) PROMISES to have both of those books (and three others) out by the end of the year. It still remains to be seen if even one of the NG books will make it out this year. So why should I show customer loyalty to a company that cannot carry through with what they promise?

And before anyone starts attacking me, stating that then maybe I should go play something different and stop posting on these boards, it is my right as a customer to post here. I do play Palladium games. I do like the worlds and flavorful settings. Yes, I would even like to see Palladium increase its sales and get strong again. I just do not think it is going to happen as long as Kevin still runs everything in the same manner he has done for the last 15 years.

earthhawk · Unread post by **earthhawk** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:55 pm

Mack wrote:Friends, I understand (and share) your frustrations. And I'm glad that you've been able to let off some pent up tension in this thread, but please remember that the full time Palladium staff rarely read topics in this forum for a variety of legitimate reasons.

If you really want to express your complaints to Palladium, I recommend you write a letter to the company. Yes, an actual snail-mail letter. Not an email or a Facebook post. Physical letters carry more significance.

I'm not discouraging anyone from letting out a little rant online, but if you want to make the biggest impact, a letter is the way to go.

Good Gaming,
Mack

I've written letters to various companies in the past when I've had issues. This is a great idea, maybe even a signed petition spelling out our disappointment would have the most impact?

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:25 pm

Icefalcon wrote:
Mack wrote:Friends, I understand (and share) your frustrations. And I'm glad that you've been able to let off some pent up tension in this thread, but please remember that the full time Palladium staff rarely read topics in this forum for a variety of legitimate reasons.

If you really want to express your complaints to Palladium, I recommend you write a letter to the company. Yes, an actual snail-mail letter. Not an email or a Facebook post. Physical letters carry more significance.

I'm not discouraging anyone from letting out a little rant online, but if you want to make the biggest impact, a letter is the way to go.

Good Gaming,
Mack

Not a bad idea Mack. Thanks for the suggestion.

Out of curiosity, aren't the Moderators supposed to bring things such as this to the company's attention also?

I don't write letters.... I give them phone calls.

You light up their phone lines like a Christmas tree, your going to get someone's attention.

earthhawk · Unread post by **earthhawk** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:16 am

Tiree wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:
Mack wrote:Friends, I understand (and share) your frustrations. And I'm glad that you've been able to let off some pent up tension in this thread, but please remember that the full time Palladium staff rarely read topics in this forum for a variety of legitimate reasons.

If you really want to express your complaints to Palladium, I recommend you write a letter to the company. Yes, an actual snail-mail letter. Not an email or a Facebook post. Physical letters carry more significance.

I'm not discouraging anyone from letting out a little rant online, but if you want to make the biggest impact, a letter is the way to go.

Good Gaming,
Mack

Not a bad idea Mack. Thanks for the suggestion.

Out of curiosity, aren't the Moderators supposed to bring things such as this to the company's attention also?

I don't write letters.... I give them phone calls.

You light up their phone lines like a Christmas tree, your going to get someone's attention.

However you decide to convey your displeasure please do so with class and tact. My beef with PB stands as: stop saying books are coming out when you have no real intention of releasing them on time. This is irresponsible for this to be a policy of Palladium Books, and harbors resentment to a decent portion of your customer base.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:00 pm

Im not going to bother with a letter or a call. Its imo pretty much a waste of time. Nothing has changed after PB getting letters and calls. Why would mine suddenly make the difference. Not to mention time to get with the times and read the company forums. This is the only company I know of where the people that work for it actively avoid using their own fourms. Im not wasting time to what amounts to pretty much a wasted effort.

Hot Rod · Unread post by **Hot Rod** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:27 pm

I participated in both NG1 & NG2 insiders, just for the PDFs though I did order a bunch of other stuff each time...

I find I am very disappointed in the slipping release dates. This was a Pre-paid deal, not a pledge drive, and according to the insiders page it was to cover publishing costs... Yet the book wasn't done editing yet? I feel lied to and will be unlikely to participate in any future 'Kickstarters' I missed the BM one (if any) and chose to bypass Lemuria (as I've yet to use anything from my underseas book in a campaign), so my only experience with PB Kickstarters is negative.

Even the two xmas packs I ordered last year came in a single box (that cost less than 1/4 of what I was charged in shipping to send) and included a comic, and "Heroes of the Megaverse", two of the worst books I've ever encountered anywhere. The books are to be expected, the value of the other books almost made it worthwhile, the shipping charge of $137 (USD) when the shipping label clearly states 37.50 (USD)? Stuff like this makes me wonder about PB...

As for PB staff not reading their boards, that would be a foolish thing. They might not respond, but to pay no interest in what their active fans are saying would negate the purpose in having said board. (I was especially surprised to see Kevin's reply to a particularly vitrolic post in a now locked thread. Don't stress over haters Kevin, but look for something useful in what they say...)

HR

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:50 pm

The_Livewire wrote:If I may include my two C-bills on reading this thread so far..
Re: PDFs Except for the core rule books, I now buy all my Battletech stuff on PDF. They're more portable, easier to read at work or on my phone/dock and easier to search. I run Pathfinder Society games and being able to keep a PDF of the bestaries up (or C&P their stats into a different program) is a godsend. It's also useful for someone playing a more obscure class/race/feat. You're using a Gunslinger? Let me pull up UC and get that so I can refresh my memory.

Re: Print dates. Yes, by all means delay a 'release' date until you can commit to it. Catalyst games does this, with their releases. It's a pain in the centre torso rear armor, but at least we don't get 'any day now'. Any company has delays, but if the company comes clean on why (it's on the boat) and it's not every product, buyers are more forgiving

Re: Kickstarter This is related to Print Dates. Make sure you can follow through and have clear deadlines. I've participated in 5 kickstarters, three of which I have the product in my hands (All Necromancer Games) one has had some delays but the owner has been open about those delays (Reaper Bones) One is soon to be in my hands (Pathfinder Gobinworks) and the final will be ready next year (Dreamscarred Press) Kickstarter makes it very easy to keep your investors up to date on what's going on
Re: Does not follow their own message boards, huh? Every company I buy from, from Kobold Press to Dreamscarred to Paizo to Catalyst (and even companies I dont buy from, like WOTC) maintain some presence on their own boards.

As a note: We're told that they don't follow their own message boards, but every now and then we'll get an angry/defensive rant from Kevin that shows they do. After the 'poll' thing a few months ago he had himself a right little fit at the people on the forums. It turned out to be a 2 or 3 murmer long thing.

So.... they have repeatedly SAID they don't follow the forums. The better way to say it is likely "We don't often reply".

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:11 pm

I don't have all the palladium books that I eventually plan to purchase, so whether or not they produce new material won't have an impact in their ability to take my money in the short term. However, at some point I will have all the books that interest me, so if Palladium wants more of my money, they will have to produce new material that is appealing to me.

I don't care if they publish new books on time or years late as long as the books are interesting to me. If they start releasing new books at the promised pace but that pace turns out to be too ambitious and the quality of the ideas start to suffer, then we haven't gained anything. A dozen new on-time books that don't interest me will garner less of my money than one or two late but totally worth the wait books. Of course, if quality doesn't suffer, then as long as the authors don't burn out, then the faster pace is preferable for everyone: I get more interesting books to read, palladium gets more of my money, and the rest of you guys stop complaining about missed deadlines

--flatline

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:38 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:So.... they have repeatedly SAID they don't follow the forums. The better way to say it is likely "We don't often reply".

I wonder if they do that so they CAN ignore what the customers are saying?

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:47 pm

Icefalcon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:So.... they have repeatedly SAID they don't follow the forums. The better way to say it is likely "We don't often reply".

I wonder if they do that so they CAN ignore what the customers are saying?

No, it's more of a legal/copyright issue. Suppose you share a homemade OCC here, and two months later a very similar one appears in an official book. If KS was an active member of this forum, you could claim he stole your idea (or at the least he subconsciously copied it).

Not too mention that I'd much rather KS spend his time handling the business and writing new books than spending time here.

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:58 pm

Mack wrote:Not too mention that I'd much rather KS spend his time handling the business and writing new books than spending time here.

Can't argue with that considering that it is something I have been saying (at least about the books) for a while.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:52 am

Well that's happened. One of the Heroes Unlimited source books had a number of powers posted here, that were 'recreated' there almost point for point. Yes I understand about paralle generation and what not. I remember when it happened. The powers were clearly lifted and paraphrased. I'm not trying to get back into THAT though, as I don't think that's it.

I think that their lack of back and forth on the forums is an outgrowth of their technophobia. Kevin posts murmers here but that forum is locked. No back and forth communication wanted. Alex will post now and then but his posts aren't always well received. (( I know. I've refuted a few of them in the past)).

I just don't think it's their 'style.'. It doesn't mean they don't like their fans. I think they do. I REALLY DO. I think Kev and crew love their fans. I think they love seeing how much we like their games, I think they love seeing what we do with them.

They just have no wish for criticisms or suggestions. They have been at this for 20+ years. They "know" how to do what they do and see no need to mess with it. I disagree with them on a few things, but yeah.. I don't think it's too deep.

Kev and crew don't like technology. They don't embrace it. If anything they seem to actively resist it. They switched over to computer lay out for books years and years after it became industry standard. Their website was the same one they made in the early to mid 90s till the last year or so. After that they refused to create a Facebook account till they were activly shamed into doing so, claiming here on the forums that it'd take three weeks to put a Facebook page together. Then one fan did it in 30 minutes, while constructing his child's lego set. Then people started frinding it and suddenly.. they did their own Facebook. Before and after that we've gotten statements from Alex that Palladium still thinks Ebooks and PDF's to be a fad, and they don't know if they'll pan out. MILLIONS of Ipads, and Kindles and other tablets and ereaders sold. Every publishing company around stating the surge and dramatic sales in Ebooks. Other game companies embracing the Ebook/ PDF format. They make good money selling both physical and Ebooks, but Palladium resists. They have put up articles written years ago by a guy or two saying the Digital format won't hold out, but it has and is still growing like crazy. For every one they put up I could show you 50 that says the opposite. They still resist putting out PDF's of their "NEW" books (( Except for the speical insider offers. Which as of now have been two. And only possible to buy legally for limited timeframes)) They claim they do this 1) because they don't think Digital books will remain popular. And are a fad. and 2) because they think that putting out the new books on PDF's will lead to rampid theft and noone will buy the books if they can get them for free. This has been hugely debunked. The simple fact is there are websites out there, ones that do not charge a red cent, that have every Palladium book on pdf, all the way up to rifter 58 and Lemuria, for free... if thieves want to down load them. Putting out LEGAL PDF's won't mean people will suddenly be giving them out and 'stealing' them. They're already out there for anyone that WANT'S to steal.. .but Palladium is refusing to make money LEGALLY from people (( Like myself)) That WANT to pay for them.

I think their infrequent POSTING on the forums or replying to the Forums is an outgrowth of that Technophobia.

We KNOW they actually DO Read them, as once in a while they'll get cited in Kevin's murmers. ((Recently there was the thing about Kevin's "poll" that gave hugely different results than what has been discussed here on the forums and it comes out that the 'poll' was taken among friends, family and those paying $100s to travel to a Palladium only convention. Not even an "RPG" Convention but the Palladium only one held in the palladium werehouse. Not exactly a non biased poll. When this was commented on (( Heavily)) Kevin posted some murmers raging at the people here on the forums. He even attacked someone that, to be honest, was one of his greatest and loudest defenders here on the forums.

So they do read. They just don't reply for the most part. I think it's equal parts "We know what we're doing and we're set in our ways" and technophobia.

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:42 am

Sounds a lot like the argument behind VHS and DVD and again with DVD vs. Blu-Ray.

ffranceschi · Unread post by **ffranceschi** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:48 am

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Kev and crew don't like technology. They don't embrace it. If anything they seem to actively resist it.
I think their infrequent POSTING on the forums or replying to the Forums is an outgrowth of that Technophobia.

Perhaps it is not bad at all...Battlestar Galactica (new series) survived because of that. :-)

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:31 pm

ffranceschi wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Kev and crew don't like technology. They don't embrace it. If anything they seem to actively resist it.
I think their infrequent POSTING on the forums or replying to the Forums is an outgrowth of that Technophobia.

Perhaps it is not bad at all...Battlestar Galactica (new series) survived because of that.

If the Cylons come back he'll be heralded as the savior of RPGs. Till then, he needs to get with the program. lol

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:57 pm

Why is anyone really surprised this has happened? People said it would back in June. I was one of them. It was one of the reasons I didn't buy into the NG MI's.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:27 pm

The_Livewire wrote:
jaymz wrote:Why is anyone really surprised this has happened? People said it would back in June. I was one of them. It was one of the reasons I didn't buy into the NG MI's.

Surprised maybe not. Disappointed definitely.
Palladium may not be a WOTC or Paizo, but they're also not as new or as small as a Dreamscarred, or a Catalyst either. (And Catalyst is a good comparison as they've had their money problems and devout fan base as well).

If something is expected to happen (NG books not coming out as they should be) how can anyone be disappointed by it?

No offense but anyone who honestly believed things would be different this time were naive and should have known better. We have decades of precedence to show nothing will change in this regard.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:05 pm

Jaymz does have a point. Yet I rather posters voice their displeasure. Otherwise if no one ever says anything. Why would PB change anything. Not that saying anything changes anything really yet one can hope.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:09 pm

It's not so much the complaining I am talking about. It is the, what seems to be genuine disappointment and in some cases surprise, that this happened.

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:11 pm

jaymz wrote:
The_Livewire wrote:
jaymz wrote:Why is anyone really surprised this has happened? People said it would back in June. I was one of them. It was one of the reasons I didn't buy into the NG MI's.

Surprised maybe not. Disappointed definitely.
Palladium may not be a WOTC or Paizo, but they're also not as new or as small as a Dreamscarred, or a Catalyst either. (And Catalyst is a good comparison as they've had their money problems and devout fan base as well).

If something is expected to happen (NG books not coming out as they should be) how can anyone be disappointed by it?

No offense but anyone who honestly believed things would be different this time were naive and should have known better. We have decades of precedence to show nothing will change in this regard.

Unfortunately, I have been away from Palladium for 10 years and just recently came back. I was hoping they had changed in that time. Shame on me for trying to believe that.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:12 pm

Icefalcon wrote:
jaymz wrote:
The_Livewire wrote:
jaymz wrote:Why is anyone really surprised this has happened? People said it would back in June. I was one of them. It was one of the reasons I didn't buy into the NG MI's.

Surprised maybe not. Disappointed definitely.
Palladium may not be a WOTC or Paizo, but they're also not as new or as small as a Dreamscarred, or a Catalyst either. (And Catalyst is a good comparison as they've had their money problems and devout fan base as well).

If something is expected to happen (NG books not coming out as they should be) how can anyone be disappointed by it?

No offense but anyone who honestly believed things would be different this time were naive and should have known better. We have decades of precedence to show nothing will change in this regard.

Unfortunately, I have been away from Palladium for 10 years and just recently came back. I was hoping they had changed in that time. Shame on me for trying to believe that.

In that case ice you are the exception to what i said. Many here have not been gone until recently.

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:18 pm

Bringing the subject back on target a little. I am hoping the power creep for these books are not to bad. I would like to make them compatible the the kind of game I am trying to run.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:23 pm

Icefalcon wrote:Bringing the subject back on target a little. I am hoping the power creep for these books are not to bad. I would like to make them compatible the the kind of game I am trying to run.

My Best Guess would be no real power creep per se. No worse than Black Market or Merc Ops.

Icefalcon · Unread post by **Icefalcon** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:30 pm

jaymz wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:Bringing the subject back on target a little. I am hoping the power creep for these books are not to bad. I would like to make them compatible the the kind of game I am trying to run.

My Best Guess would be no real power creep per se. No worse than Black Market or Merc Ops.

I am kind of hoping it will be along the lines of Black Market, in which the power level was maintained rather than increased. I am also kind of hoping to see more "generic" gear such as KC posted in one of his threads.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:16 am

I would actually like to see NG streamline their rifles and pistols. Not along the lines of wilks yet neither the overly large monstrosties that some of the heavier weaposn are. Seriously some of the older NG weapons require the user to have a certain PS requirement. No reason they could not modernize some of the newer weapons. imo.

Bood Samel · Unread post by **Bood Samel** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:19 am

I'm one of the longest lasting posters on here, from 2000 as you can see. People have been complaining the whole time about these issues non-stop. Palladium isn't going to change. Honestly do you need more books? Do you need another gun that does 6d6 over the million other ones that do? Are the new classes or races gonna be so unique that they aren't a variant of or reinterpretation of a pre-existing one?

Create fan made e-book pdfs and file share them. When people are using fan made books as much as cannon made stuff then you'll see change. I was working on one before a lap top was stolen. I had about a source book size of material written and I've been too distraught and playing other games to re-write it. An RPG setting is a shared imaginary construct. We have an investment in rifts unique to us and our experiences with it. Our take on it isn't any less valid the palladiums and we should be putting it out there for each other to share. I personally don't care about IP laws. You don't like how palladium manages rifts, then appropriate it.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:39 am

Bood Samel wrote:I'm one of the longest lasting posters on here, from 2000 as you can see. People have been complaining the whole time about these issues non-stop. Palladium isn't going to change. Honestly do you need more books? Do you need another gun that does 6d6 over the million other ones that do? Are the new classes or races gonna be so unique that they aren't a variant of or reinterpretation of a pre-existing one?

Create fan made e-book pdfs and file share them. When people are using fan made books as much as cannon made stuff then you'll see change. I was working on one before a lap top was stolen. I had about a source book size of material written and I've been too distraught and playing other games to re-write it. An RPG setting is a shared imaginary construct. We have an investment in rifts unique to us and our experiences with it. Our take on it isn't any less valid the palladiums and we should be putting it out there for each other to share. I personally don't care about IP laws. You don't like how palladium manages rifts, then appropriate it.

Belive it or not.... but there are people out here, like myself, that are looking forward to the NG books, NOT for the guns or power armor, but for the setting information. I --live-- in the area of Northern Gun in rifts. lol It's my part of the country. I have enough guns. As you say. I don't need a different gun. I'm looking forward to the fluff. The Setting. How they've designed Northern Gun and the UP.

Not for nothing, but "Equipment books" and "Gun catalogs" Are --not-- my favorite RPGs. I've got 100s and 100s of RPGs and I usually buy those books last, and only to complete collections.

in the case of the NG books. yep.. It's where I live. I can't wait to see how it's fleshed out Rifts style.

runebeo · Unread post by **runebeo** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:31 am

I'm very happy with the Palladium game systems, sure D20 systems are quicker but loss the intense detail of blocking & dodging. A few house rules speed up the Rifts system easily, with the Palladium system your characters have extreme detail where as you can get to know your character so deeply you can quickly say my character wouldn't do that because of so & so. I once told an old friend about my main Rifts character background & adventures it turned into a 3 hour conversation and lots of things where left-out. With D&D and even Pathfinder you can play a character for years and not get the detail you get with PB system.
As Rifts rounding out the world, that is pretty true but as its a megaverse with unlimited worlds, I see a ton of dimensional books in their future, some hits some misses. I like Phase World yet I think it time to move on with new dimension books like what was done with Wormwood.