What would make Bionics popular again?

[Stone Gargoyle]

Other then "numbers", is there truly any difference between "Partial" - "Heavy" - "Brain Transplant"?
Higher attributes, more SDC and features is about the only difference.
I am thinking of putting together something - Rifter, netbook, whatever. I was thinking these three should be renamed "[partial] Light" - "[heavy] Medium" - "[brain transplant] Heavy"
Face it, the "Partial" body package in the corebook is not partial at all.. it is a full conversion borg, just with less items/lower numbers then the others.
A true "Partial" borg would be more akin to a Head Hunter from Rifts.. someone who has maybe 1-2 limbs, a couple of implants and a weapon package of some kind.

This is true.

[NMI]

So I started checking the math and verifying the cost/value of the Bionic body packages...

Yeah, Partial is a tad bit off, based on how I did the math.
Partial comes in at $10,235,000
For PS, PS was paid for "4" times for the arms/hands [2 arms, 2 hands]
PS was paid for once for each leg
PP was bought "4" times. Once for each arm and hand.
178 points of Speed was bought.
For some reason, the Partial package includes "All" eye options.
Costs also include the base cost for each arm, hand, leg, ear and eye.
Total cost does not include the "Light" suit of armor the Partial Borg gets - Could not find the "Light" suit as presented in the Borg's armor section.

Code: Select all

Partial Construction Borg

Bionic Arms [2]   PS 19 / PP19         1.400.000   / 36.000   / 180.000
Bionic Hands [2]   PS 19 / PP 19         600.000      / 36.000   / 180.000
Bionic Legs [2]   PS 22 /                2.000.000    / 48.000 
Bionic Legs [2]    Speed 188         1.780.00         

Bionic Ear   [2]            200.000

Amplified Hearing               350.000
Receive wide ban radio transmissions         70.000

Bionic Eyes   [2]            160.000

All                  1.395.000

Reinforced Exo-Skeleton [for enhanced Speed]      2.000.000   

Full Conversion Borg

Code: Select all

Full Conversion Borg

Bionic Arms [2]               1.400.000
-   PS – 22               48.000
-   PP – 18               160.000

Bionic Hands [2]               600.000
-   PS – 22               48.000   
-   PP – 18               160.000

Bionic Legs [2]               2.000.000
-   PS – 24               56.000      
-   SPD – 77               670.000

Bionic Lungs               95.000
-   Gas Filtration System         100.000

Full Body Exoskeleton            
-   Spine & Shoulders [1]         1.000.000
-   Arms & Shoulders [2]         1.100.000
-   Hands & Wrists [2]            400.000
-   Legs & Hips [2]            2.000.000
-   Feet & Ankles [2]            200.000

Full Bionic Body Armor            350.000

Machine Pistol Implant
-   Concealed Sub-Machine Gun         275.000

Bionic Weapon of Choice
-   Retractable Blades [Large] [2]      80.000

Total:                               10.742.000      

Did not include the price for "Advanced Optics" in the overall total as there is no option available "Advanced Optics" for Bionics.

Code: Select all

Brain Transplant Borg      

Bionic Arms [2]               1.400.000
-   PS – 24               56.000
-   PP – 22               240.000

Bionic Hands [2]               600.000
-   PS – 24               56.000   
-   PP – 22               240.000

Bionic Legs [2]               2.000.000
-   PS – 24               56.000      
-   SPD – 120            1.100.000

Bionics – Misc
-   Skull               500.000 – 190.000
-   Chest               500.000
-   Kidneys               1.500.000
-   Mouth/Throat            250.000

Full Body Exoskeleton            
-   Spine & Shoulders [1]         1.000.000
-   Arms & Shoulders [2]         1.100.000
-   Hands & Wrists [2]            400.000
-   Legs & Hips [2]            2.000.000
-   Feet & Ankles [2]            200.000      

Bionic Armor 
-   Full Bionic Armor            350.000

Bionic Eye [Basic]               80.000
-   Advance Optics [Robotic]         425.000 - ????
-   Eye Laser [1]            300.000

Advanced Sensors
-   Radar               250.000
-   Mini-Computer            300.000

Energy Weapon
-   Energy Blaster [Opt #3, pg 109]      850.000

Retractable Blades [Large, x2]         80.000

Mini-Missile Launchers [x2]            1.000.000

Total 16,418,000

[NMI]

I also noticed some discrepancies in costs...

Page 104: Skull and/or Face: $500,000
Page 113: Skull: $190,000

Page 104: [Major Body Part] Heart: $1,000,000
Page 104: [Internal Organs] Heart: $470,000

Page 104: [Major Body Part] Kidney: $1,500,000
Page 104: [Internal Organs] Kidney: $420,000

Mini-Missile Launcher [Chest] Payload: 1 Cost: $500,000
Multi-Missile Arm Launcher [Arm] Payload: 5 Cost: $1,500,000

On a related note;
Multi-Missile Arm Launcher
- Payload: 5
- Rate of Fire: 1 at a time or in volleys of 2, 4, or 6.

Speed point per pair of legs [Bionic]: $10,000
Speed point per pair of legs [Roobtic]: $500

[NMI]

The problem with trying to convert the Bionics category to a point system would mean having to go through the existing material and changing all of it, plus coming up with new material.

Everything else [that I can think of] through the Palladium Megaversal is also done via dollar/credit budgets. And besides, what is a dollar amount other then a different type of "point" system?

I think Rifts: Japan is the only Palladium product that even brings to the game table a power supply for Borgs.

[Nightmask]

The problem with trying to convert the Bionics category to a point system would mean having to go through the existing material and changing all of it, plus coming up with new material.

Everything else [that I can think of] through the Palladium Megaversal is also done via dollar/credit budgets. And besides, what is a dollar amount other then a different type of "point" system?

I think Rifts: Japan is the only Palladium product that even brings to the game table a power supply for Borgs.

I remember that from trying to find something for another thread, and that power supply was only mentioned as a supplemental system to power some external weapon systems, actual power supplies for borgs are never really mentioned other than presumably being nuclear. Which kind of gets in the way of some things seen in comics and literature with cyborgs such as the cyborg being able to plug in to power stuff off of his own internal system.

[Gryphon Chick]

NMI is part of the problem using a hard system like money rather than a soft system like a point allocation? Also, there aren't many options in the way of interface technologies when downloading stuff from computers or ECM systems and cloaking technologies. Power supplies is another issue (bionics would require a power source within the human body unless the human heart was modified to some extent, even nano-turbines within the heart to pump blood to turn nano-tech electromagnets would be somewhat plausible if not believable). Sensors on the skin and in the organs could also be something to look into for normal-looking bionic characters that could work as espionage agents and for investigators as well.

Some of these issues could be resolved if they combined Bionics and Robotics, don't you think?

[Gryphon Chick]

NMI is part of the problem using a hard system like money rather than a soft system like a point allocation? Also, there aren't many options in the way of interface technologies when downloading stuff from computers or ECM systems and cloaking technologies. Power supplies is another issue (bionics would require a power source within the human body unless the human heart was modified to some extent, even nano-turbines within the heart to pump blood to turn nano-tech electromagnets would be somewhat plausible if not believable). Sensors on the skin and in the organs could also be something to look into for normal-looking bionic characters that could work as espionage agents and for investigators as well.

Some of these issues could be resolved if they combined Bionics and Robotics, don't you think?

I'd go further than that. I'd combine the equipment of Hardware, Special Training (in particular the Secret Operative), Super Invention, Natural Genius and give a token amount of Personal Gear points to the other classes over a variety of technology spectrum's similar to how Secret Agencies are presented under a POINT system. Personal Weapons, Personal Armor, Personal Communication, Personal Tech, could be under an umbrella with a variety of bionic, cybernetic, robotic and remote control systems. It would be a pretty overwhelming document to compile granted that, but could make it easier to come up with on the fly high-tech stuff for NPCs as well as offering a standardized methodology for which classes benefit the most from technology.

It would, which is probably why they have not done it.

[say652]

use bionics from other source books. a white tiger borg in H.U. would be great or a six armed light japaneseborg with akido and paired weapons would rock. the reason bionics have dwindled is it takes so much tima and calkculation to create a borg or a robot its like trying to build the thing in your garage in real life. allow a double budget for a borg/robot in your game and see how many players would jump on that. or take your favorite borg from another source book add the total mdc from all locations to determine sdc and let them use it. the reason is totaly the budget nothing worse than mixed ps,pp,and speed stats all connected to one body, just my opinion.

[Snowtiger]

It's not just the obvious bionic components though. What about neural jacking interfacing, wireless data communications, nervous system alterations, as well as skin modulation technology, muscle grafts and even cell replacement? There are so many aspects of bionics that have nothing to do with machines but everything to do with replacing and enhancing body parts. The late, great Erick Wujcik touched on it in N&S, but an On Body Computer (OBC) is now more powerful and possible than he could have envisioned. Being completely silicon it could be grafted onto the upper spinal column of an individual and resemble bone on x-ray scans, and could record data as well as sending signals throughout the body and could provide defenses against electronic intrusion. I'd work it as an invasive computer that would monitor body functions and depending on the design, would provide for functional advantages and perceived dangers. The working name I have for it is the Brain Box, and would be the major portion of wetworks cybernetics.

Granted, we need more bionic gadgets. It seems that neural interfaces, wireless communications and nervous system alterations seem to have gotten the short end of the straw, because the Bionics section seems to be lacking on these aspects, while concentrating on an 80's metal-is-better-than-meat mindset. Making up suitable hardware for those niches shouldn't be that hard, if one wants to delve into that sort of thing. Possible example tech could be found in many RPGs sporting cybernetic stuff, as well as a heap of fictional works centered on cyberpunk.

Combining bionics with Eugenics modifications could be the answer for subtle body alteration and enhancement, including nervous system enhancement, skin and musculature alterations as well as exotic mods (shaping the baseline human form into something different altogether).

The "Brain Box" computer you're working on seems an analogy to Cyberpunk 2020 neural processor, Which is essentially a dedicated computer system responsible for communication between the character's brain and nervous system and the cybernetic alterations the character has. Every cybernetic system the character has is tied to the neural processor and won't work without it. The neural processor can have several sub-processors installed to allow neural interfacing (either with interface plugs and cables or through specialized subsystems) with computers, smartguns, vehicles etc. It also can accept reflex boosters (sub-processors capable of enhancing reaction times either permanently or only when needed), and chipware sockets (chips come in many forms, but most common chips are skill-chips, giving the character limited skill levels in some skills they otherwise wouldn't have(or common knowledge in some area of expertise, in case of knowledge skills), these are often inferior to real skills(being recorded knowledge and muscle memory programming, they don't allow the user to improvise much beyond basic skills), and most skill chips override natural skill levels, so they cannot be used to boost existing skills).

[Brothershadow]

Some time ago, bionics and cybernetic conversions were all the rage. Man and machine combined into one, allowing superhuman senses or abilities at the cost of limbs or organs. Now the category du jour seems to be anything that grants powers like Mutants, Experiments, Eugenics, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I love my super abilities. But lately I've noticed bionics being pushed further and further into the back seat as far as popularity goes. I'm trying to consider how to tweak this category to make things more interesting, like perhaps Bionics research in a future game have become more affordable, or even alien tech advanced like such parts in Rifts as the new cutting edge. I love the Supersoldier options, and doing more to combine these seems like a perfect melding. What do you think it would take to make Bionics a more interesting category again? Adjust prices, allow for better tech, borrow more from the Robotics sections?

I brought this up with my group about a month ago as I found no one today wants to play a Bionics class hero. And why would you when you have something likes Eugenics. What I had suggested was adding certain powers that could fall into the Bionics category that we may have seen from comics or any Scifi shows we know and love. My first thought that came to mind was stealth, camo, or invisibility. Much like "Grey Fox" the cyborg ninja from Metal Gear. With the right pricing, i didn't find this ability too far fetched. Or allowing for things like a white sound generator much like DC comics famous hero. A strength adjustment like Eugenics would also be interesting with balanced pricing.

[Daniel Stoker]

Build him right and your Eugenic's has durability and firepower too. To be honest though it would be interesting to set up a challenge, build 2 of each characters, one with max funds, one with minimum funds, stick them in an empty city block and have them try to kill each other and see who survives.


Daniel Stoker

[Daniel Stoker]

An android has a better chance against a eugenics character unless you allow some "comic book science stuff" for the bionics character like nano-bots sealed in small chips within the body that get released to stimulate the bionic characters performance (through the nervous and visceral systems and individual glands and organs) and also heal the bionic components while scanning the surroundings with bionic eardrums and sonar, and of course having an energy weapon with a good payload. Military training is also definitely encouraged.

I'm not sure a humanoid android is going to be all that much better then the bionic character, but I'd be interested in the same set up with a max budget and minimum budget fight for that as well. I'll be honest between the regeneration and psionics with a max budget you can make a pretty sick Eugenics character.


Daniel Stoker

[The Artist Formerly]

A simple fix for borgs can be found in AU Galaxy, Wayne gave us nano-bot restoration system. Adapt it to borgs, and it does it's healing thing once every 24 hours. The bio-tech IRMSS system fixes both the meat and the metal.

Or one could take the super invention cat, and merge it with a borg set up. Make power selections that match the borg feel, and remember that they are always on. Cut a skill program or some secondary skills to make up for it can't be taken away and you should be good to go.

Another way to look at a borg build might to think of the Symbote or the Mystic instilled abilities. Both offer super powers that could be chosen to emulate a cyborg like feel, and have built in upgrades to the physical body that could be explained away as cybernetics/bionics.

[Daniel Stoker]

One of my tricks as well is to play with the imbued powers and offer a super power that way with that specific bionic component being one that if it gets badly destroyed being much more expensive (or possibly even impossible) to repair.


Daniel Stoker

[The Artist Formerly]

Going with Triple Hip pack powered energy Claws, (d6x10 each, ) Optimized (+2 strike/parry) +20% Damage (+12)
Heavy bionic armor, Jump jets, heavy stunner and Force field, With amplified hearing and motion sensors, as well as a HUDS System with a high powered Multi Weapon Arm (Laser,Sonic, Ion, Grenade launcher).. With PS 40 Bionics, well this isn't even fair anymore. The Eugenics character is hosed. Throw in Some Numbing Poison kisentite spear, and a Particle Whip with a Aberrant Bio Energy damper backpack, White noise Emiter... the Eugenic is truely hosed.

Eh. The borg character buys a XM-134 minigun and a extra set of arms with arm blade weapons. That's 5d6 (or 6d6 with armoring piercing rounds) x3 on a short burst. The borg has both the mass and the PS to use such a thing. The extra arms means that if the eugenics guy is close quarters build the borg has some defensive ability while he uses the gun to chew through the eugenics character. Borg wins.

[The Artist Formerly]

my option is designed to defeat any eugenic character.. There are lots of weaknesses with all energy so you need all sorts of weapons

Outside of flipping past the Eugenics section, thumbing though it occassionally, I haven't built anything from it. That said, 6d6x3 with a minus 2 to your AR for armor piercing rounds, it's a light machine gun(using the 7.62/ .308, with total PV of 7) , that should be good for just about anything.

[NMI]

Going with Triple Hip pack powered energy Claws, (d6x10 each, ) Optimized (+2 strike/parry) +20% Damage (+12)
Heavy bionic armor, Jump jets, heavy stunner and Force field, With amplified hearing and motion sensors, as well as a HUDS System with a high powered Multi Weapon Arm (Laser,Sonic, Ion, Grenade launcher).. With PS 40 Bionics, well this isn't even fair anymore. The Eugenics character is hosed. Throw in Some Numbing Poison kisentite spear, and a Particle Whip with a Aberrant Bio Energy damper backpack, White noise Emiter... the Eugenic is truely hosed.

I want to see this wonder created and completely written out by the book. 1st level
I will make a Eugenics PC by the book 1st level. We will let the fans decide.

[NMI]

I say we all go with Maximum budgets.

[Daniel Stoker]

I think both help highlight the strengths and weakness of both classes.


Daniel Stoker

[NMI]

no Rifts or MDC man... this HEROES UNLIMTED
Book version and page # where it says aliens in AUGG gets x2 bionics budget.
Book version and page #'s for these weapon damages you are touting?
How the heck did you get a low orbit altitude of 31 miles?