How would topple the Coalition?

[Hotrod]

I have a few different approaches depending on what you mean by 'topple'.

1. Change Rulers: Assassination of the Prozeks or a coup would do it. Revolution would also do it, but such an event seems unlikely given the published material.

2. Change the System of Government. I've spelled out in a separate thread what I'd do if I took the reins. This would require a major personality change on the part of the Prozeks, or it would require power to pass to someone with a very different philosophy.

3. Break up the country. If the states break off into sovereign entities, then the 'Coalition' will no longer exist. This would require some political manipulation. Exposing scandalous secrets that make Chi-Town look like an over-reaching control-obsessed, domineering state that sees the others as disposable assets could induce other states to follow the example of Free Quebec.

4. Conquer the country. This could be done by Atlantis, the Vampire Kingdoms, or a determined effort from a trans-dimensional force, such as Dyval or Hades.

5. Total Annihilation! Xiticix, Atlantis, Vampires+Atlantis, a super-plague, Mechanoids, Four Horsemen, Dyval/Hades, Ragnarok... take your pick.

If you're talking about something a small group could execute or orchestrate, then options 1-3 are your most-likely course of action. Option 5 is possible, I suppose, but it would totally re-shape North America such that most of the worldbooks and sourcebooks would be useless.

[Godogma]

I can think of numerous ways to assassinate the Prosek family and that would indeed quite likely work. That may be used in conjunction with some of my other ideas for how to pare down the beast in an upcoming campaign - thanks for the reminder/idea.

[Icefalcon]

I can think of numerous ways to assassinate the Prosek family and that would indeed quite likely work. That may be used in conjunction with some of my other ideas for how to pare down the beast in an upcoming campaign - thanks for the reminder/idea.

Why does everyone's mind immediately go to assassination of the Proseks? There is a much more elegant solution that does not turn them into martyrs. You frame them for some huge, embarassing, illegal scandal. Once you make sure they are framed nice and good and on their way to jail, that's when you have them killed. The key to this plan is to make sure you have someone in place to take the reigns after you have cut out the whole for them to slip into.

As far as plans for a small group, this is the best way to go and could result in the players in control of the Coalition.

[Godogma]

I can think of numerous ways to assassinate the Prosek family and that would indeed quite likely work. That may be used in conjunction with some of my other ideas for how to pare down the beast in an upcoming campaign - thanks for the reminder/idea.

Why does everyone's mind immediately go to assassination of the Proseks? There is a much more elegant solution that does not turn them into martyrs. You frame them for some huge, embarassing, illegal scandal. Once you make sure they are framed nice and good and on their way to jail, that's when you have them killed. The key to this plan is to make sure you have someone in place to take the reigns after you have cut out the whole for them to slip into.

As far as plans for a small group, this is the best way to go and could result in the players in control of the Coalition.

Except they kinda control all media outlets in the Coalition and also they're the dictator and dictator's son. So anything they say is legal for them kinda is... They're at the top of that particular trash pile.

[Godogma]

My two C-Bills?
Killing Proseks, while an entertaining hobby, does not "topple the Coalition." Especially if done with magic. All you end up with are martyrs and an uptick in "Prozac was right" t-shirts.
To topple the Coalition, short of invading and leveling the place, you need a change on the ground.
I think you start small, a town with a magic water purifier, propaganda. Aimed at them, etc.
If you have access to Triax news feeds their D-Bee amnesty puts the current administration in a bind. Do they work to suppress the videos? Do they denounce their allies? (Not so soon after FQ) And if that undermines the narrative then you hit them with the Death Camps.

That is something 10 Pcs can do, over time.

Starting small and changing the hearts and minds of the little people means nothing; they'll just sweep it clean like they do in the 'Burbs every so often. There's a section that the military burns down so often it's called Fire Town in the 'Burbs for Pete's sake.

As for the media? They control it, far more closely than China controls the internet and news media or the various little Middle Eastern countries ever could... How precisely are you getting your messages through?

All you need to do is teleport in a bomb or sneak in with 4D transformation and plant it and it never looks like magic was used - just a common terrorist Fusion Block - even better use one that has the taggants (aka chemical signature) from their own military and then they start a witch hunt through their own ranks looking for the guy who murdered the Emperor and his family.

Hell if you plant it in the right spot you could get them and their top advisors/generals at one time.

[Icefalcon]

I can think of numerous ways to assassinate the Prosek family and that would indeed quite likely work. That may be used in conjunction with some of my other ideas for how to pare down the beast in an upcoming campaign - thanks for the reminder/idea.

Why does everyone's mind immediately go to assassination of the Proseks? There is a much more elegant solution that does not turn them into martyrs. You frame them for some huge, embarassing, illegal scandal. Once you make sure they are framed nice and good and on their way to jail, that's when you have them killed. The key to this plan is to make sure you have someone in place to take the reigns after you have cut out the whole for them to slip into.

As far as plans for a small group, this is the best way to go and could result in the players in control of the Coalition.

Except they kinda control all media outlets in the Coalition and also they're the dictator and dictator's son. So anything they say is legal for them kinda is... They're at the top of that particular trash pile.

Even dictators have to follow their own laws. It is not the public you have to convince of their "illegal" activities, it is the other officials in the government. Besides, if this is supposed to be a job for 4-12 players, they are the ones that have to figure out how to accomplish the task. The goal is to topple the Coalition, the method is ousting the Proseks. Any form of killing them before you destroy their image would just turn them into martyrs. Sow enough discontent among the generals and other officials, follow that with discontent among the populace (even if it requires pirated media), stay ahead of the Prosek regime's spin doctors and once the Proseks are out of the limelight, then you kill them to prevent their return.

[Godogma]

I can think of numerous ways to assassinate the Prosek family and that would indeed quite likely work. That may be used in conjunction with some of my other ideas for how to pare down the beast in an upcoming campaign - thanks for the reminder/idea.

Why does everyone's mind immediately go to assassination of the Proseks? There is a much more elegant solution that does not turn them into martyrs. You frame them for some huge, embarassing, illegal scandal. Once you make sure they are framed nice and good and on their way to jail, that's when you have them killed. The key to this plan is to make sure you have someone in place to take the reigns after you have cut out the whole for them to slip into.

As far as plans for a small group, this is the best way to go and could result in the players in control of the Coalition.

Except they kinda control all media outlets in the Coalition and also they're the dictator and dictator's son. So anything they say is legal for them kinda is... They're at the top of that particular trash pile.

Even dictators have to follow their own laws. It is not the public you have to convince of their "illegal" activities, it is the other officials in the government. Besides, if this is supposed to be a job for 4-12 players, they are the ones that have to figure out how to accomplish the task. The goal is to topple the Coalition, the method is ousting the Proseks. Any form of killing them before you destroy their image would just turn them into martyrs. Sow enough discontent among the generals and other officials, follow that with discontent among the populace (even if it requires pirated media), stay ahead of the Prosek regime's spin doctors and once the Proseks are out of the limelight, then you kill them to prevent their return.

Yeah, good luck with all that. I highly doubt it's possible. They're dug in like an Alabama tick and their image is essentially unassailable. Plus they'd just burn out and kill off the populace you got to follow along with the idea. As for their generals and officials that line of upper end fanatics think the same way as the Proseks and Joseph probably has more than enough dirt to keep them contained - if that doesn't work he can always have them tossed in the equivalent of the Gulag or sent to Desmond Bradford for his experiments.

[Icefalcon]

I can think of numerous ways to assassinate the Prosek family and that would indeed quite likely work. That may be used in conjunction with some of my other ideas for how to pare down the beast in an upcoming campaign - thanks for the reminder/idea.

Why does everyone's mind immediately go to assassination of the Proseks? There is a much more elegant solution that does not turn them into martyrs. You frame them for some huge, embarassing, illegal scandal. Once you make sure they are framed nice and good and on their way to jail, that's when you have them killed. The key to this plan is to make sure you have someone in place to take the reigns after you have cut out the whole for them to slip into.

As far as plans for a small group, this is the best way to go and could result in the players in control of the Coalition.

Except they kinda control all media outlets in the Coalition and also they're the dictator and dictator's son. So anything they say is legal for them kinda is... They're at the top of that particular trash pile.

Even dictators have to follow their own laws. It is not the public you have to convince of their "illegal" activities, it is the other officials in the government. Besides, if this is supposed to be a job for 4-12 players, they are the ones that have to figure out how to accomplish the task. The goal is to topple the Coalition, the method is ousting the Proseks. Any form of killing them before you destroy their image would just turn them into martyrs. Sow enough discontent among the generals and other officials, follow that with discontent among the populace (even if it requires pirated media), stay ahead of the Prosek regime's spin doctors and once the Proseks are out of the limelight, then you kill them to prevent their return.

Yeah, good luck with all that. I highly doubt it's possible. They're dug in like an Alabama tick and their image is essentially unassailable. Plus they'd just burn out and kill off the populace you got to follow along with the idea. As for their generals and officials that line of upper end fanatics think the same way as the Proseks and Joseph probably has more than enough dirt to keep them contained - if that doesn't work he can always have them tossed in the equivalent of the Gulag or sent to Desmond Bradford for his experiments.

Only if you give the Coalition the same plot immunity that Palladium does. The generals and politicians can be gotten to through mind alteration easily enough and their rebellion can be kept from the Proseks until the proper time. You don't even need magic to accomplish this goal.

And as I keep pointing out, killing them will just bring the rest of the Coalition together to avenge their martyrs.

[Godogma]

Which is why I said use a device that was designed and manufactured by them so they start a witch hunt amongst their own people. Hell, have an Auto-G plant it and deliberately get caught on video in the shape of one of the other problem people so it looks like a cabal within the Coalition itself. Then most of the biggest problem people will kill each other off fighting and scheming and jockeying for position.

Meanwhile the serpent becomes much less of a problem because it doesn't have its head.

[Icefalcon]

Which is why I said use a device that was designed and manufactured by them so they start a witch hunt amongst their own people. Hell, have an Auto-G plant it and deliberately get caught on video in the shape of one of the other problem people so it looks like a cabal.

Still makes them martyrs.

[Godogma]

Which is why I said use a device that was designed and manufactured by them so they start a witch hunt amongst their own people. Hell, have an Auto-G plant it and deliberately get caught on video in the shape of one of the other problem people so it looks like a cabal.

Still makes them martyrs.

A martyr for the upper levels of the Coalition perhaps, but most of the lower end folks especially those in the Burbs can think for themselves and resent the hell out of the Coalition for the way its upper echelon has treated them. Lots of high end defectors come out of the Coalition Military who joined to become citizens and were denied because of the layers of bureaucracy and Joseph's intelligence operations whether with real reason or manufactured evidence. (Several are in the various Merc Ops books).

But they'll have lost the biggest part of of the problem and if you believe Sourcebook 1 from there the Republicans could arrange to place someone much more moderate in control of the CS. There's a plan to that effect outlined already.

Then again, that assumes that they actually are in a position to play kingmaker.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Destroying chi- town is like destroying Washington, D.C. , isn't not going to bring down the coalition states , it just gives them a city full of martyrs, someone will step in to fill the spot, heck FQ might rejoin the coalition states, to help with keeping them strong after this attack, and the people who did the attack will get found, because their egos will get the better of them, the glory and fame for destroying chi-town and killing the evil emperor.

[Godogma]

You folks can run your games your way, I'll run mine my way. I believe that's everyone's right as players and GMs.

As to how the scenario would play out, who knows? I believe that the CS would definitely be much less of a problem without Karl and Joseph. Whether or not the Coalition would fall or whether they'd tighten back up they'd be without the tyrannical genius of the two Prosek males. Also I never said anything about destroying Chi Town and leaving a bastion of martyrs - that's on you.

I mentioned redirection and starting witch hunts within the Coalition's own ranks; which could be easily set up by having the upper level brass that remains mind's altered or what have you. I never said that killing them was my whole plan.

As to the assassin talking? I guess you've never heard of special forces soldiers and discipline before? I know damn well some of my friends were in the special forces and yet they don't talk about Black Ops missions they were on in Iraq and Afghanistan. My dad hasn't talked about any of the secret stuff he did while in the military and that happened back in the Vietnam era and is probably declassified due to the freedom of information act.

Besides if you're worried about your assassin talking kill your assassin.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You folks can run your games your way, I'll run mine my way. I believe that's everyone's right as players and GMs.

As to how the scenario would play out, who knows? I believe that the CS would definitely be much less of a problem without Karl and Joseph. Whether or not the Coalition would fall or whether they'd tighten back up they'd be without the tyrannical genius of the two Prosek males. Also I never said anything about destroying Chi Town and leaving a bastion of martyrs - that's on you.

I mentioned redirection and starting witch hunts within the Coalition's own ranks; which could be easily set up by having the upper level brass that remains mind's altered or what have you. I never said that killing them was my whole plan.

As to the assassin talking? I guess you've never heard of special forces soldiers and discipline before? I know damn well some of my friends were in the special forces and yet they don't talk about Black Ops missions they were on in Iraq and Afghanistan. My dad hasn't talked about any of the secret stuff he did while in the military and that happened back in the Vietnam era and is probably declassified due to the freedom of information act.

Besides if you're worried about your assassin talking kill your assassin.

So now the magic teleporting bombers are special forces soldiers?

[flatline]

You folks can run your games your way, I'll run mine my way. I believe that's everyone's right as players and GMs.

As to how the scenario would play out, who knows? I believe that the CS would definitely be much less of a problem without Karl and Joseph. Whether or not the Coalition would fall or whether they'd tighten back up they'd be without the tyrannical genius of the two Prosek males. Also I never said anything about destroying Chi Town and leaving a bastion of martyrs - that's on you.

I mentioned redirection and starting witch hunts within the Coalition's own ranks; which could be easily set up by having the upper level brass that remains mind's altered or what have you. I never said that killing them was my whole plan.

As to the assassin talking? I guess you've never heard of special forces soldiers and discipline before? I know damn well some of my friends were in the special forces and yet they don't talk about Black Ops missions they were on in Iraq and Afghanistan. My dad hasn't talked about any of the secret stuff he did while in the military and that happened back in the Vietnam era and is probably declassified due to the freedom of information act.

Besides if you're worried about your assassin talking kill your assassin.

So now the magic teleporting bombers are special forces soldiers?

The definition of "Special Forces" is troops who received training above and beyond that of normal soldiers often for specific types of missions. Don't you think that Mages would qualify? Do you really think that the special forces for magic using kingdoms would use the CS special forces (or similar) OCC?

How else would you describe a Temporal Warrior? They are disciplined, train for small group infiltration, and have a variety of spells at their disposal including Fourth Dimension Transformation which is the spell I believe the earlier posts were referring to.

--flatline

[Godogma]

You beat me to it flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You folks can run your games your way, I'll run mine my way. I believe that's everyone's right as players and GMs.

As to how the scenario would play out, who knows? I believe that the CS would definitely be much less of a problem without Karl and Joseph. Whether or not the Coalition would fall or whether they'd tighten back up they'd be without the tyrannical genius of the two Prosek males. Also I never said anything about destroying Chi Town and leaving a bastion of martyrs - that's on you.

I mentioned redirection and starting witch hunts within the Coalition's own ranks; which could be easily set up by having the upper level brass that remains mind's altered or what have you. I never said that killing them was my whole plan.

As to the assassin talking? I guess you've never heard of special forces soldiers and discipline before? I know damn well some of my friends were in the special forces and yet they don't talk about Black Ops missions they were on in Iraq and Afghanistan. My dad hasn't talked about any of the secret stuff he did while in the military and that happened back in the Vietnam era and is probably declassified due to the freedom of information act.

Besides if you're worried about your assassin talking kill your assassin.

So now the magic teleporting bombers are special forces soldiers?

The definition of "Special Forces" is troops who received training above and beyond that of normal soldiers often for specific types of missions. Don't you think that Mages would qualify? Do you really think that the special forces for magic using kingdoms would use the CS special forces (or similar) OCC?

How else would you describe a Temporal Warrior? They are disciplined, train for small group infiltration, and have a variety of spells at their disposal including Fourth Dimension Transformation which is the spell I believe the earlier posts were referring to.

--flatline

Funny you are the first one to mention temporal warrior, but they never strucked me as special force types , assassins maybe but just thugs using guns and magic for b and e jobs or raiding place and taking what they want , and not the elite special forces you all are trying to pretend they are

[Godogma]

Lots of special forces are assassins and people making B&E jobs for intel or hostages or whatever and taking what they're ordered to. Hostage rescue? It's taking people from the people who have them, stealing enemy intel - its a form of B&E, killing the people they're ordered to? Guess what that's assassination.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well considering that they only came out in World Book 3, they were the first real magic equivalent of one. If you look at the only Coalition equivalent of the time, the Military Specialist, they have a comparable skill set, and come with less W.P and HtH skills. In fact they are one of the few classes to have their stats and abilities based on the amount of training time they have had, which is closer to how actual special forces work. Their abilities, skills and spell sets are geared towards commando style raids, i.e get in and get out quick, doing as much damage(or stealing) as possible, and not trying to get caught in a stand up fight.

geared more for smash and grab jobs, no commando style raids

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Lots of special forces are assassins and people making B&E jobs for intel or hostages or whatever and taking what they're ordered to. Hostage rescue? It's taking people from the people who have them, stealing enemy intel - its a form of B&E, killing the people they're ordered to? Guess what that's assassination.

well i guess when large group of teenagers go into a 7-11 and steal stuff and run out that makes them SF then huh?

they just slave soldiers not Special Forces.

[Godogma]

According to you; they seem to have access to appropriate skills to get in and get out without it being a "smash and grab" job. Their magical abilities help with that so they don't need technological skills to bypass security and the like. They have a lot of skills appropriate to special forces. From sniping and survival training to swimming and lock picking and sneaking about.

They also have access to Any Espionage and Military skills at (+10%) as well as access to their choice of Martial Arts or Assassin HtH combat training... so yeah, I'm not getting the whole smash and grab thug from the temporal warrior class. That one is purely your interpretation of the class.

And as for them being slave soldiers? Also your interpretation; they're highly trained and generally do so by apprenticeship, but in no way are they slaves or else they wouldn't finish their apprenticeship and be released. Sure they have the option of remaining and serving their mentor for longer terms, but come out of it at higher levels (with greater penalties but *shrug* you win some you lose some).

Breaux's picture is certainly more appropriate for a commando than a slave soldier also, so obviously your vision doesn't match that of KS and the artist...

And lets not even get started on the insanity of giving an "enslaved" soldier environmental medium or heavy megadamage body armor, some high tech gear like a laser distancer and the like as well as a weapon for every weapon proficiency and a neural mace/vibroblade and 1d4+1 e-clips for each. Especially after you've taught him to make dimensional pockets where he can stuff any of those things when you have no method of controlling him other than his need for continued training. (That's giving him two ancient weapons as well as four modern weapons of his choice plus lots of ammunition and high end armor... not the brightest idea).

Also there's the fact that Temporal Warriors get *PAID* during their years of apprenticeship... not very indicative of slavery.

Splugorth have methods of controlling their slaves, I don't see anything under the Temporal Raider that works for enslaving folks.

[flatline]

The definition of "Special Forces" is troops who received training above and beyond that of normal soldiers often for specific types of missions. Don't you think that Mages would qualify? Do you really think that the special forces for magic using kingdoms would use the CS special forces (or similar) OCC?

How else would you describe a Temporal Warrior? They are disciplined, train for small group infiltration, and have a variety of spells at their disposal including Fourth Dimension Transformation which is the spell I believe the earlier posts were referring to.

--flatline

Funny you are the first one to mention temporal warrior, but they never strucked me as special force types , assassins maybe but just thugs using guns and magic for b and e jobs or raiding place and taking what they want , and not the elite special forces you all are trying to pretend they are

Perhaps you should explain what you think special forces are.

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The definition of "Special Forces" is troops who received training above and beyond that of normal soldiers often for specific types of missions. Don't you think that Mages would qualify? Do you really think that the special forces for magic using kingdoms would use the CS special forces (or similar) OCC?

How else would you describe a Temporal Warrior? They are disciplined, train for small group infiltration, and have a variety of spells at their disposal including Fourth Dimension Transformation which is the spell I believe the earlier posts were referring to.

--flatline

Funny you are the first one to mention temporal warrior, but they never strucked me as special force types , assassins maybe but just thugs using guns and magic for b and e jobs or raiding place and taking what they want , and not the elite special forces you all are trying to pretend they are

Perhaps you should explain what you think special forces are.

--flatline

well they dont wear flamboyant colors capes to start

[Mech-Viper Prime]

According to you; they seem to have access to appropriate skills to get in and get out without it being a "smash and grab" job. Their magical abilities help with that so they don't need technological skills to bypass security and the like. They have a lot of skills appropriate to special forces. From sniping and survival training to swimming and lock picking and sneaking about.

They also have access to Any Espionage and Military skills at (+10%) as well as access to their choice of Martial Arts or Assassin HtH combat training... so yeah, I'm not getting the whole smash and grab thug from the temporal warrior class. That one is purely your interpretation of the class.

And as for them being slave soldiers? Also your interpretation; they're highly trained and generally do so by apprenticeship, but in no way are they slaves or else they wouldn't finish their apprenticeship and be released. Sure they have the option of remaining and serving their mentor for longer terms, but come out of it at higher levels (with greater penalties but *shrug* you win some you lose some).

Breaux's picture is certainly more appropriate for a commando than a slave soldier also, so obviously your vision doesn't match that of KS and the artist...

And lets not even get started on the insanity of giving an "enslaved" soldier environmental medium or heavy megadamage body armor, some high tech gear like a laser distancer and the like as well as a weapon for every weapon proficiency and a neural mace/vibroblade and 1d4+1 e-clips for each. Especially after you've taught him to make dimensional pockets where he can stuff any of those things when you have no method of controlling him other than his need for continued training. (That's giving him two ancient weapons as well as four modern weapons of his choice plus lots of ammunition and high end armor... not the brightest idea).

Also there's the fact that Temporal Warriors get *PAID* during their years of apprenticeship... not very indicative of slavery.

Splugorth have methods of controlling their slaves, I don't see anything under the Temporal Raider that works for enslaving folks.

maybe servant warrior is more fitting then slave warrior, but still not the Special Forces you are trying to make them out to be

[Godogma]

Says you; Koreans like bright colors... Why don't you go tell the 8th RoK marines they aren't special forces? Hell your precious Coalition are depicted several times with the officers wearing capes (and I believe in the full color image that I remember the damn thing is bright red at that...)

Also, you aren't providing any facts just your opinion; they quite fit the definition of a commando, which someone quite conveniently posted higher up in the thread. Just because in your opinion they're thugs and assassins doesn't mean they don't have all the skills required to be special forces.

Frankly, your opinion on the matter is wrong. I'll go with the published material.

[Hotrod]

...As to the assassin talking? I guess you've never heard of special forces soldiers and discipline before? I know damn well some of my friends were in the special forces and yet they don't talk about Black Ops missions they were on in Iraq and Afghanistan. My dad hasn't talked about any of the secret stuff he did while in the military and that happened back in the Vietnam era and is probably declassified due to the freedom of information act.

Besides if you're worried about your assassin talking kill your assassin.

I'm sorry, I just can't resist. ALL HAIL THE UNIVERSALLY-ACKNOWLEDGED DISCIPLINE, PROFESSIONALISM, 100% RELIABILITY, AND SECRECY OF THE SPECIAL FORCES! FOR SURE, THEY NEVER EVER TALK ABOUT THEIR MISSIONS, TACTICS, OR CULTURE.

Special operations is a neat and a special thing. Most of them are competent and professional. That said, putting these guys on some kind of infallible pedestal by virtue of their membership in a community flies in the face of reality. They're people like everyone else. They have their bad apples, and some of them lose their way over time.

Oh, and they do talk. A lot. It's almost hard to avoid. True, they usually won't talk about stuff they've signed confidentiality agreements over, but neither do the vast majority of people who get read onto that stuff.

[Godogma]

I was speaking only of those I knew personally - I can't account for everyone.

[Hotrod]

Oh, I know. That last post was really me just venting about the culture of special ops worship that pervades so much of society.

I feel much better now.

[Godogma]

Oh, I don't worship them... I love my father and he's a great guy and all, but he has his foibles... some of the guys I'm friends with who are the special ops guys are ******** a LOT of the time especially when they get to drinking. I respect them for serving our country but beyond that I judge them as humans...

I judge that friend A) is an ******* whenever he drinks too much and friend B) when he drinks too much gets morose and stupid just like he did back when we first started hanging out and both of them are rough on game pads.

And never mind when they're in a "Watch this!" mood. Or worse "hold my beer and watch this."

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Says you; Koreans like bright colors... Why don't you go tell the 8th RoK marines they aren't special forces? Hell your precious Coalition are depicted several times with the officers wearing capes (and I believe in the full color image that I remember the damn thing is bright red at that...)

Also, you aren't providing any facts just your opinion; they quite fit the definition of a commando, which someone quite conveniently posted higher up in the thread. Just because in your opinion they're thugs and assassins doesn't mean they don't have all the skills required to be special forces.

Frankly, your opinion on the matter is wrong. I'll go with the published material.

too bad even the published material doesnt even state your opinion of them being special forces.

[Godogma]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces - Read the very first sentence of the post: Special forces, or special operations forces are terms used to describe highly-trained military units trained to perform unconventional, often high-risk missions.

Or go back up and actually read the definition for the commando enhancer oh so conveniently posted here for you. I didn't even have to look it up.

You love to deride anything that isn't the Coalition States; I get that, but why are you even posting here in this thread?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces - Read the very first sentence of the post: Special forces, or special operations forces are terms used to describe highly-trained military units trained to perform unconventional, often high-risk missions.

Or go back up and actually read the definition for the commando enhancer oh so conveniently posted here for you. I didn't even have to look it up.

You love to deride anything that isn't the Coalition States; I get that, but why are you even posting here in this thread?

Speical Forces Capabilities

Special forces capabilities include the following:

1 Reconnaissance and surveillance in hostile environments
2 Training and development of other states' military and security forces
3 Offensive action
4 Support to counter-insurgency through population engagement and support
5 Counter-terrorism operations
6 Sabotage and demolition
7 Hostage rescue
sorry your "special Farce"temporal warrior still come up short in that department

lets see

page 69 in WB 3 england
"like the wizard, the temporal warrior is a typically evil or self serving rogue, trained by the demonic raider to use his powers to "take" what he wants.

still not seeing the speical forces there
rogue
   [rohg] Show IPA noun, verb, rogued, ro·guing, adjective
noun
1.
a dishonest, knavish person; scoundrel.
2.
a playfully mischievous person; scamp: The youngest boys are little rogues.
3.
a tramp or vagabond.
4.
a rogue elephant or other animal of similar disposition.
5.
Biology . a usually inferior organism, especially a plant, varying markedly from the normal.
yup sounds like special forces to me
i will read what is in the book, that is canon

[Godogma]

Seems like they CAN do all the things on your step one through 7, they certainly have the skill options for all of them.

And the key word there is "TYPICALLY" for your second one.

They have no required alignment at the beginning point for player characters... Aka at 1st level they can be any alignment they want, even scrupulous good.

Hell the Temporal Raider can even be Unprincipled and doesn't have to be evil.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Bah, just ignore him. He just likes contradicting people. Supplying facts or material to support your theories takes effort after all.

funny because canon says different then the misinterpretations you guys are trying to pull off, having them as something they are not.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Seems like they CAN do all the things on your step one through 7, they certainly have the skill options for all of them.

And the key word there is "TYPICALLY" for your second one.

a vagbond could do 1 to 7 too, doesnt make him special forces does it?

[Godogma]

Bah, just ignore him. He just likes contradicting people. Supplying facts or material to support your theories takes effort after all.

funny because canon says different then the misinterpretations you guys are trying to pull off, having them as something they are not.

As there aren't any canon magical special forces this comes the closest to any published form of them. Unless you count United Worlds of Warlock Marines, but that's a whole dimension away. Frankly the magical parts of Rifts always get less attention to detail than the CS does, odd how that works.

There's been whole series of books published about the CS and their genocidal ways and yet we still have only the barest of glimpses at Lazlo and a short section on Dweomer and the other federation of magic city states...

When KS finally publishes a "magical special forces" class that fits your personal interpretation of special forces let me know. Until then; hey the Temporal Warrior has special training in all the things special forces members do - it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Bah, just ignore him. He just likes contradicting people. Supplying facts or material to support your theories takes effort after all.

funny because canon says different then the misinterpretations you guys are trying to pull off, having them as something they are not.

As there aren't any canon magical special forces this comes the closest to any published form of them. Unless you count United Worlds of Warlock Marines, but that's a whole dimension away. Frankly the magical parts of Rifts always get less attention to detail than the CS does, odd how that works.

There's been whole series of books published about the CS and their genocidal ways and yet we still have only the barest of glimpses at Lazlo and a short section on Dweomer and the other federation of magic city states...

When KS finally publishes a "magical special forces" class that fits your description of special forces let me know. Until then; hey the Temporal raider has special training in all the things special forces members do - it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

reaaly, battle magus , has more of special forces skill set then the temporal warriors
then there are APOK, anti-monster, and many others that prove the point temporal warrior are just rogues and nothing more and hardly the Special forces type you keep claiming they are

[Godogma]

Bah, just ignore him. He just likes contradicting people. Supplying facts or material to support your theories takes effort after all.

funny because canon says different then the misinterpretations you guys are trying to pull off, having them as something they are not.

As there aren't any canon magical special forces this comes the closest to any published form of them. Unless you count United Worlds of Warlock Marines, but that's a whole dimension away. Frankly the magical parts of Rifts always get less attention to detail than the CS does, odd how that works.

There's been whole series of books published about the CS and their genocidal ways and yet we still have only the barest of glimpses at Lazlo and a short section on Dweomer and the other federation of magic city states...

When KS finally publishes a "magical special forces" class that fits your description of special forces let me know. Until then; hey the Temporal raider has special training in all the things special forces members do - it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

reaaly, battle magus , has more of special forces skill set then the temporal warriors
then there are APOK, anti-monster, and many others that prove the point temporal warrior are just rogues and nothing more and hardly the Special forces type you keep claiming they are

Oh you mean the Battle Magus which is a front line grunt of the magus types? Literally word for word from the Federation of Magic book. The wormwood Apok isn't remotely a special forces class and the anti monster men are highly over specialized for Hunting you guessed it monsters.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Oh you mean the Battle Magus which is a front line grunt of the magus types? Literally word for word from the Federation of Magic book. The wormwood Apok isn't remotely a special forces class and the anti monster men are highly over specialized for Hunting you guessed it monsters.

still each is more suited for special forces then a temporal warrior

[Godogma]

Oh you mean the Battle Magus which is a front line grunt of the magus types? Literally word for word from the Federation of Magic book. The wormwood Apok isn't remotely a special forces class and the anti monster men are highly over specialized for Hunting you guessed it monsters.

still each is more suited for special forces then a temporal warrior

In your OPINION. Which I don't share. In this case we'll have to agree to disagree and move along.

[Hystrix]

Oh you mean the Battle Magus which is a front line grunt of the magus types? Literally word for word from the Federation of Magic book. The wormwood Apok isn't remotely a special forces class and the anti monster men are highly over specialized for Hunting you guessed it monsters.

still each is more suited for special forces then a temporal warrior

In your OPINION. Which I don't share. In this case we'll have to agree to disagree and move along.

No. Mecha is right. OCCs are geared to do certain things. The Battle Magus, the Apok, and the Anti-Monster are all geared more towards special forces (well, towards soldiering) than a Temporal Raider. It's just ther way the OCC/RCCs are set up.

You can do your own thing, but it's a homebrew OCC, not canon.

[Godogma]

Oh you mean the Battle Magus which is a front line grunt of the magus types? Literally word for word from the Federation of Magic book. The wormwood Apok isn't remotely a special forces class and the anti monster men are highly over specialized for Hunting you guessed it monsters.

still each is more suited for special forces then a temporal warrior

In your OPINION. Which I don't share. In this case we'll have to agree to disagree and move along.

No. Mecha is right. OCCs are geared to do certain things. The Battle Magus, the Apok, and the Anti-Monster are all geared more towards special forces (well, towards soldiering) than a Temporal Raider. It's just ther way the OCC/RCCs are set up.

You can do your own thing, but it's a homebrew OCC, not canon.

The Temporal Warrior is a soldier and has many military skills and bonuses to them. The Temporal Raider is the being who teaches the Temporal Warriors and Wizards. There's nothing "homebrew" about the skills I posted earlier I got them directly from Rifts England.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Oh you mean the Battle Magus which is a front line grunt of the magus types? Literally word for word from the Federation of Magic book. The wormwood Apok isn't remotely a special forces class and the anti monster men are highly over specialized for Hunting you guessed it monsters.

still each is more suited for special forces then a temporal warrior

In your OPINION. Which I don't share. In this case we'll have to agree to disagree and move along.

No. Mecha is right. OCCs are geared to do certain things. The Battle Magus, the Apok, and the Anti-Monster are all geared more towards special forces (well, towards soldiering) than a Temporal Raider. It's just ther way the OCC/RCCs are set up.

You can do your own thing, but it's a homebrew OCC, not canon.

The Temporal Warrior is a soldier and has many military skills and bonuses to them. The Temporal Raider is the being who teaches the Temporal Warriors and Wizards. There's nothing "homebrew" about the skills I posted earlier I got them directly from Rifts England.

you could turn one into a special force type but as they are in the book canon wise they are not special force just smash and grab thugs/body guard for temporal raiders

[Godogma]

you could turn one into a special force type but as they are in the book canon wise they are not special force just smash and grab thugs/body guard for temporal raiders

So you've repeatedly said; however they have special skills and lots of military training - their reputation as rogues notwithstanding that doesn't mean they aren't special forces. Kinda like the SS or the Spetznaz - they may not be from our country but they're still special forces.

They also may not behave in a manner which we find acceptable, but they still have special forces training and abilities and go on missions to do whatever it is they do.

Your OPINION is that they are smash and grab thugs and bodyguards to Temporal Raiders; you're very lacking in proof of that claim however. Certainly they're trained to take what they want by Temporal Raiders but hey, you do what you have to in order to survive in the world of Rifts.

You don't see me claiming that just because the CS special forces are used to commit genocide that they aren't skilled special forces combatants.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

you could turn one into a special force type but as they are in the book canon wise they are not special force just smash and grab thugs/body guard for temporal raiders

So you've repeatedly said; however they have special skills and lots of military training - their reputation as rogues notwithstanding that doesn't mean they aren't special forces. Kinda like the SS or the Spetznaz - they may not be from our country but they're still special forces.

They also may not behave in a manner which we find acceptable, but they still have special forces training and abilities and go on missions to do whatever it is they do.

Your OPINION is that they are smash and grab thugs and bodyguards to Temporal Raiders; you're very lacking in proof of that claim however. Certainly they're trained to take what they want by Temporal Raiders but hey, you do what you have to in order to survive in the world of Rifts.

You don't see me claiming that just because the CS special forces are used to commit genocide that they aren't skilled special forces combatants.

just because you keep saying they are doesnt mean they are,
i quote the book and yet its lacking proof.
show me where its says they are special forces!

[Godogma]

you could turn one into a special force type but as they are in the book canon wise they are not special force just smash and grab thugs/body guard for temporal raiders

So you've repeatedly said; however they have special skills and lots of military training - their reputation as rogues notwithstanding that doesn't mean they aren't special forces. Kinda like the SS or the Spetznaz - they may not be from our country but they're still special forces.

They also may not behave in a manner which we find acceptable, but they still have special forces training and abilities and go on missions to do whatever it is they do.

Your OPINION is that they are smash and grab thugs and bodyguards to Temporal Raiders; you're very lacking in proof of that claim however. Certainly they're trained to take what they want by Temporal Raiders but hey, you do what you have to in order to survive in the world of Rifts.

You don't see me claiming that just because the CS special forces are used to commit genocide that they aren't skilled special forces combatants.

just because you keep saying they are doesnt mean they are,
i quote the book and yet its lacking proof.
show me where its says they are special forces!

They have special skills and training not offered anywhere else; thus the special part... They're part of a fighting force... Can you not add 1+1 and get 2? Call them commandos then; they fit that definition exactly and enhancer already posted it for you. If the name special forces bothers you so much.

Special forces by that definition didn't even exist in your precious CS from 1-105 P.A. as enhancer as already pointed out. They didn't exist until Coalition War Campaign was published!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

you could turn one into a special force type but as they are in the book canon wise they are not special force just smash and grab thugs/body guard for temporal raiders

So you've repeatedly said; however they have special skills and lots of military training - their reputation as rogues notwithstanding that doesn't mean they aren't special forces. Kinda like the SS or the Spetznaz - they may not be from our country but they're still special forces.

They also may not behave in a manner which we find acceptable, but they still have special forces training and abilities and go on missions to do whatever it is they do.

Your OPINION is that they are smash and grab thugs and bodyguards to Temporal Raiders; you're very lacking in proof of that claim however. Certainly they're trained to take what they want by Temporal Raiders but hey, you do what you have to in order to survive in the world of Rifts.

You don't see me claiming that just because the CS special forces are used to commit genocide that they aren't skilled special forces combatants.

just because you keep saying they are doesnt mean they are,
i quote the book and yet its lacking proof.
show me where its says they are special forces!

They have special skills and training not offered anywhere else; thus the special part... They're part of a fighting force... Can you not add 1+1 and get 2? Call them commandos then; they fit that definition exactly and enhancer already posted it for you. If the name special forces bothers you so much.

Special forces by that definition didn't even exist in your precious CS from 1-105 P.A. as enhancer as already pointed out. They didn't exist until Coalition War Campaign was published!

they are not even that, but i guess if a bunch of gang bangers use a commando styled raid on a rival home or 7-11 that makes them commandos, well in your opinion, i guess, not mine.

[Godogma]

you could turn one into a special force type but as they are in the book canon wise they are not special force just smash and grab thugs/body guard for temporal raiders

So you've repeatedly said; however they have special skills and lots of military training - their reputation as rogues notwithstanding that doesn't mean they aren't special forces. Kinda like the SS or the Spetznaz - they may not be from our country but they're still special forces.

They also may not behave in a manner which we find acceptable, but they still have special forces training and abilities and go on missions to do whatever it is they do.

Your OPINION is that they are smash and grab thugs and bodyguards to Temporal Raiders; you're very lacking in proof of that claim however. Certainly they're trained to take what they want by Temporal Raiders but hey, you do what you have to in order to survive in the world of Rifts.

You don't see me claiming that just because the CS special forces are used to commit genocide that they aren't skilled special forces combatants.

just because you keep saying they are doesnt mean they are,
i quote the book and yet its lacking proof.
show me where its says they are special forces!

They have special skills and training not offered anywhere else; thus the special part... They're part of a fighting force... Can you not add 1+1 and get 2? Call them commandos then; they fit that definition exactly and enhancer already posted it for you. If the name special forces bothers you so much.

Special forces by that definition didn't even exist in your precious CS from 1-105 P.A. as enhancer as already pointed out. They didn't exist until Coalition War Campaign was published!

they are not even that, but i guess if a bunch of gang bangers use a commando styled raid on a rival home or 7-11 that makes them commandos, well in your opinion, i guess, not mine.

Congratulations you've just moved onto the ignore list permanently; you compare apples to oranges constantly and cannot provide well reasoned intelligent discourse on the topics being posted.

You want to generalize everything to make it fit your cozy pro-coalition world view or if it doesn't you denigrate it.

I tire of you. Good day sir, I wish you luck in your future endeavors.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Congratulations you've just moved onto the ignore list permanently; you compare apples to oranges constantly and cannot provide well reasoned intelligent discourse on the topics being posted.

You want to generalize everything to make it fit your cozy pro-coalition world view or if it doesn't you denigrate it.

I tire of you. Good day sir, I wish you luck in your future endeavors.

no you keep trying to say the grape is a peanut

but lets look at the occ skill,

page 70
prowl, pick lock, land nav, wildnerness survival,swimming, climbing, sniper, two ancient wp, four wp of choice,math basic, martial art or assassin hth

lets look at them under RMB
Prowl (physical)
pick lock( espionage or rogue)
land nav ( wilderness)
wilderness survival (Espionage)
swimming (physical )
climbing (physical)
sniper (espionage)
and nowhere is mention this amazing claim of military training that you say they have.

but i notice you do like throwing the that coalition thing around, well if you feel you must please do.

[Killer Cyborg]

No idea why we're talking about this, but Special Forces are military, and have military training.
Any OCC that lacks formal military training couldn't be rightfully considered to be "Special Forces," whatever their skills, just like not any group of guys on horseback could rightfully be considered "Cavalry."