Forums of the Megaverse®

Then you are among the lucky folks who have somewhere to go look at a Palladium Book before you buy it. Around here, such does not and probably never will exist.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Godogma wrote:Well, if you show up and start actually forking out the cash and helping pay their bills they might humor you as an uppity customer. But most people don't have a grand or more a month to blow on books or cards or whatnot else. We generally prefer to pay bills and eat.

You're among the fraction of 1% of Palladium Book's customers who might get a game store to actually change buying practices just for you. But the most consideration that's going to get is offering to order the books for you; they're still not going to stock the system beyond maybe 1 or 2 more copies. It's just not popular enough and after you have your copy of the book they aren't going to sell many more of it.

Then again, if you're rich enough to affect the bottom line of a game store to that extent perhaps you buy copies enough for your entire gaming group?

Personally I'm with Pepsi Jedi and my deduction is your order your Palladium Books online like the rest of us when Kevin sends us our updates that the books you wanted are finally back from the printers.

In this case your deduction would be wrong...
I make trips about once every 4 months to a shop about 90 miles away(closest shop) from me.
I regularly drop any where from $300 to $3000 every visit (granted not all the money is mine I do purchase for others who do not have the time to take such a trip.) And the Shop in question does carry every Palladium book that is currently still in print. (but then it also does the same for every company in the hobby). And every patron of the store expects the shop to maintain a certain level of knowledge and gets quite incensed when the clerks show they are not even knowledgeable of basic information. (one poor clerk was roasted for not knowing about D&Dnext 2 days after it was confirmed as more than just rumor).

So you're buying one to two hundred RPG books every four months? so 400 to 800 RPG books a year? To the tune of $12,000 a year? LOL ______IF_______ someone is dropping TWELVE GRAND A year in their store.. they might take some lip off of them. They would NOT take the lip just off some jerk off the street. and IF someone is dropping twelve thousand dollars a year in their store.. they'll take the lip, 4 times a year, to buy a car or something.

The average customer doesn't buy Four HUNDRED to Eight HUNDRED books a year or spend TWELVE THOUSAND dollars a year. I would wager that it'd take Dozens and dozens and dozens of RPG buiers to hit that amount of books.

I COLLECT RPG's. I've got thousands of dollars worth, but I've been collecting for 20 years. And I'm not so stupid as to go in and act like that in a game store.

No, not just books, minis (and any one who has looked into warhammer can tell you those can get very pricey), dice, rare board games (again these can get pricey), etc..

Ohio not have Amazon or Ebay? Back 15.. 20 years ago when you couldn't find RPGs anywhere BUT RPG stores and what not, I might be able to see the sort of thing you're describing. Now days, there's Amazon, if the store in town doesn't have something, people don't save up and make quarterly trips hours away. They buy it online and it shows up 2 days later in your mailbox. What store keeps 100s and 100s of books just sitting there for your quarterly run? If you're specially ordering them, why do so through the shop 90 miles away when you can just order them any day of the week and get them delivered straight to your house? And... very likely at huge discount?

I recently received about 6 Pathfinder books from Amazon over the course of the week. (( They carry Pathfinder in our normal book store here but they're 40% cheeper on Amazon))

Why would people wait 4 months to pay full price for a store not even in their own community and someone else be driving a car with 100s of RPGs and minis ect? I mean I understand 'Support the local mom and pop store" but if it's 90 miles away, and you only go 4 times a year, why would people choose to pay the 40%+ extra, and wait months for their items?

That's a damn good question.

The Beast wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:...up till the past month or two, Palladium has not advertised in 10 years...

Palladium advertised?! Where?

Dragon Magazine, back in the day. I couldn't tell you exactly when they stopped, but think it was around the time that they started the Rifter.

Faceless Dude wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:...up till the past month or two, Palladium has not advertised in 10 years...

Palladium advertised?! Where?

Dragon Magazine, back in the day. I couldn't tell you exactly when they stopped, but think it was around the time that they started the Rifter.

I was refering to the highlighted portion.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Ohio not have Amazon or Ebay? Back 15.. 20 years ago when you couldn't find RPGs anywhere BUT RPG stores and what not, I might be able to see the sort of thing you're describing. Now days, there's Amazon, if the store in town doesn't have something, people don't save up and make quarterly trips hours away. They buy it online and it shows up 2 days later in your mailbox. What store keeps 100s and 100s of books just sitting there for your quarterly run? If you're specially ordering them, why do so through the shop 90 miles away when you can just order them any day of the week and get them delivered straight to your house? And... very likely at huge discount?

I recently received about 6 Pathfinder books from Amazon over the course of the week. (( They carry Pathfinder in our normal book store here but they're 40% cheeper on Amazon))

Why would people wait 4 months to pay full price for a store not even in their own community and someone else be driving a car with 100s of RPGs and minis ect? I mean I understand 'Support the local mom and pop store" but if it's 90 miles away, and you only go 4 times a year, why would people choose to pay the 40%+ extra, and wait months for their items?

not everyone likes to use or trusts the internet to risk their credit cards numbers. But then we here in south central Ohio are "backward" that way.
In my case I prefer my quarterly trips since I also get to make and maintain contacts within the greater local hobby scene as well my trips help to keep a brick and mortar store in business.

The Beast wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:...up till the past month or two, Palladium has not advertised in 10 years...

Palladium advertised?! Where?

Dragon Magazine, back in the day. I couldn't tell you exactly when they stopped, but think it was around the time that they started the Rifter.

I was refering to the highlighted portion.

Apologies., I didn't catch that. Now that you mention it, I'd like to know where they advertised recently too.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Ohio not have Amazon or Ebay? Back 15.. 20 years ago when you couldn't find RPGs anywhere BUT RPG stores and what not, I might be able to see the sort of thing you're describing. Now days, there's Amazon, if the store in town doesn't have something, people don't save up and make quarterly trips hours away. They buy it online and it shows up 2 days later in your mailbox. What store keeps 100s and 100s of books just sitting there for your quarterly run? If you're specially ordering them, why do so through the shop 90 miles away when you can just order them any day of the week and get them delivered straight to your house? And... very likely at huge discount?

I recently received about 6 Pathfinder books from Amazon over the course of the week. (( They carry Pathfinder in our normal book store here but they're 40% cheeper on Amazon))

Why would people wait 4 months to pay full price for a store not even in their own community and someone else be driving a car with 100s of RPGs and minis ect? I mean I understand 'Support the local mom and pop store" but if it's 90 miles away, and you only go 4 times a year, why would people choose to pay the 40%+ extra, and wait months for their items?

not everyone likes to use or trusts the internet to risk their credit cards numbers. But then we here in south central Ohio are "backward" that way.
In my case I prefer my quarterly trips since I also get to make and maintain contacts within the greater local hobby scene as well my trips help to keep a brick and mortar store in business.

So your friends don't 'trust' secure internet transactions that are guaranteed though Amazon or Ebay, but they'll give you credit cards or $100s in cash and wait from 1 to 4 months for your trips? And that distrusts equates to months of waiting and paying 40% more for the same object?

*Chuckles* Well.... Ok. I watch TrueTV on the weekends. I know there are some 'interesting' people out there.

Faceless Dude wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:...up till the past month or two, Palladium has not advertised in 10 years...

Palladium advertised?! Where?

Dragon Magazine, back in the day. I couldn't tell you exactly when they stopped, but think it was around the time that they started the Rifter.

I was refering to the highlighted portion.

Apologies., I didn't catch that. Now that you mention it, I'd like to know where they advertised recently too.

I don't remember the exact location. First was a coupon at one of the conventions but I didn't really consider that advertising, as it was for one convention (( and old books at that.)). Then after that Kevin had mentioned working with Alex more than once about adds. And... I was kinda like 'Yeah I'll believe it when I see it', but once in one of the mailings or weekly updates or posts, it was said that they'd sent off the add somewhere. I don't remember the details, I just remember it because it stuck in my mind that I could no longer say 'Palladium doesn't even advertise it's products" Any more, and still be accurate.

It was in one of the mailings or updates or facebook that it was mentioned. I just don't remember when or where.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Ohio not have Amazon or Ebay? Back 15.. 20 years ago when you couldn't find RPGs anywhere BUT RPG stores and what not, I might be able to see the sort of thing you're describing. Now days, there's Amazon, if the store in town doesn't have something, people don't save up and make quarterly trips hours away. They buy it online and it shows up 2 days later in your mailbox. What store keeps 100s and 100s of books just sitting there for your quarterly run? If you're specially ordering them, why do so through the shop 90 miles away when you can just order them any day of the week and get them delivered straight to your house? And... very likely at huge discount?

I recently received about 6 Pathfinder books from Amazon over the course of the week. (( They carry Pathfinder in our normal book store here but they're 40% cheeper on Amazon))

Why would people wait 4 months to pay full price for a store not even in their own community and someone else be driving a car with 100s of RPGs and minis ect? I mean I understand 'Support the local mom and pop store" but if it's 90 miles away, and you only go 4 times a year, why would people choose to pay the 40%+ extra, and wait months for their items?

not everyone likes to use or trusts the internet to risk their credit cards numbers. But then we here in south central Ohio are "backward" that way.
In my case I prefer my quarterly trips since I also get to make and maintain contacts within the greater local hobby scene as well my trips help to keep a brick and mortar store in business.

So your friends don't 'trust' secure internet transactions that are guaranteed though Amazon or Ebay, but they'll give you credit cards or $100s in cash and wait from 1 to 4 months for your trips? And that distrusts equates to months of waiting and paying 40% more for the same object?

*Chuckles* Well.... Ok. I watch TrueTV on the weekends. I know there are some 'interesting' people out there.

There you go jumping to conclusions again...
I dont get handed credit cards and hundreds of dollars months before I make my trip...
I have proven my "trustworthiness" to my friends over time.
Credit Card companies have shown repeatedly over time (to many of my friends) that they are not as secure as cash.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Ohio not have Amazon or Ebay? Back 15.. 20 years ago when you couldn't find RPGs anywhere BUT RPG stores and what not, I might be able to see the sort of thing you're describing. Now days, there's Amazon, if the store in town doesn't have something, people don't save up and make quarterly trips hours away. They buy it online and it shows up 2 days later in your mailbox. What store keeps 100s and 100s of books just sitting there for your quarterly run? If you're specially ordering them, why do so through the shop 90 miles away when you can just order them any day of the week and get them delivered straight to your house? And... very likely at huge discount?

I recently received about 6 Pathfinder books from Amazon over the course of the week. (( They carry Pathfinder in our normal book store here but they're 40% cheeper on Amazon))

Why would people wait 4 months to pay full price for a store not even in their own community and someone else be driving a car with 100s of RPGs and minis ect? I mean I understand 'Support the local mom and pop store" but if it's 90 miles away, and you only go 4 times a year, why would people choose to pay the 40%+ extra, and wait months for their items?

not everyone likes to use or trusts the internet to risk their credit cards numbers. But then we here in south central Ohio are "backward" that way.
In my case I prefer my quarterly trips since I also get to make and maintain contacts within the greater local hobby scene as well my trips help to keep a brick and mortar store in business.

So your friends don't 'trust' secure internet transactions that are guaranteed though Amazon or Ebay, but they'll give you credit cards or $100s in cash and wait from 1 to 4 months for your trips? And that distrusts equates to months of waiting and paying 40% more for the same object?

*Chuckles* Well.... Ok. I watch TrueTV on the weekends. I know there are some 'interesting' people out there.

There you go jumping to conclusions again...
I dont get handed credit cards and hundreds of dollars months before I make my trip...
I have proven my "trustworthiness" to my friends over time.
Credit Card companies have shown repeatedly over time (to many of my friends) that they are not as secure as cash.

Well being honest I think you made it up. lol

But no. Are you now saying that you front the three grand purchase and they pay you when you get back? if they're not handing you the credit cards or hundredfs in cash prior?


And as an aside.. WHERE Are all these "GAMERS" that are scared of the internet and computers!?!? They tend to go hand in hand, and -heavily- so. "Oh we don't trust dhem dar.... credit cards or dhem new fangled computers. They can take your soul! But.... we'll play RPGs and spend THOUSANDS a year to do so!!"

*Twitch*

Where are these people? How come in two decades plus of playing and going to many many conventions and stuff have I not seen them? Or met them? Now.... gamers that only have a nodding acquaintanceship with soap? I've met THOSE guys... but what gamer doesn't have a computer (Or two.. or three.. or more.. I've got my desktop, two Ipads and a Kindle Fire, with in REACH, right this second. In this room. two more desk tops and a laptop))? What person that's young enough to be into RPG gaming and spending money on them... .doesn't trust Amazon with their credit cards? Where are these technophobic Gamers hiding?

On the whole online shopping thing
No money is really secure, cash can be stolen, or just accidentally lost, so it's not exactly secure. Credit card information could be stolen not only online, but by an unscrupulous person working at a physical store if they really really wanted to do so. Heck, this isn't money related, but if you've ever filled out a job application chances are they got your social security number, that could be abused too.
There's always the possibility of losing money, but you can lessen that likelihood by being smart about where you shop, and how you handle your cash/cards. There's no need to take it to the point of "well I just won't shop online at all, or I just won't carry cash at all, or oh, I won't use a credit card at all" because that's just an excessive reaction I think. I've heard some arguments against credit cards (though not debit cards) that I thought were reasonable, but the security issue is really unconvincing to me (just as security based arguments against using online stores, unless it's an issue with a specific one that happens to be shady, don't convince me). So I will continue buying my books online through Palladium as well as at my local game store.

Yeah, debit cards are protected not only by your bank but also by Amazon or Ebay's guaranteed buyer protection... Or wherever you're buying stuff, though Amazon and Ebay are safer than a whole lot of other places.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I learned a long time ago, "Always look "UP"." When you enter a room, an alley, a building, a tunnel, a hallway, or even the woods. "Looks around. Front, both sides, down around my feet, behind, and UP." Always look up!!

Drop one black spiral dancer on my head in a tunnel and botch the roll and frenzy in thrall of the wyrm and end up skull humping the corpse... .shame on you..... if it happens TWICE... shame on me...

Once is all it took. I'm actually 'renown' in our groups for looking up.

What type of Garou were you playing?

Godogma wrote:Yeah, debit cards are protected not only by your bank but also by Amazon or Ebay's guaranteed buyer protection... Or wherever you're buying stuff, though Amazon and Ebay are safer than a whole lot of other places.

True
If you are worried about about your account, use prepaid cards for amazon or eBay or use the Xmas surprise offer by palladium books.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Godogma wrote:

Smashed wrote:I've learned to not worry about the GM having leverage over my character, and just play my character and have fun.

For some GM's its not about having fun... It's about winning the game or railroading the way the game is heading or something else in their twisted psyche and it's really not any fun to play with them but they may be for whatever reason your only option so you learn to work around them.

There is no such thing as no other options. With Skype, Chats, PbP, and the such there are always other options. A Bad GM is never your only choice.

Those options require a computer. I know at least 2 dozen gamers that do not own one or do not have an internet connection. As for myself, Skype is out considering lack of camera, chats and PbP have never interested me. You are correct there are other options but sometimes you are very limited in them.

skype does not require a camera (at least the games I have played in were just voice)...
I too Know those who do not own a computer but even they will not remain with a bad gm (no game being better than a bad one for them).
However those that complain online about bad games and no access to alternatives get no sympathies from me (for the obvious reasons).
Learning to GM is easy enough.
I would wager many GMs got their start by taking over in disgust or on a dare. (I know thats how I got my start, A "bad GM" challenged me after the group complained one too many times "if you think you can do better then you GM!" That person never requested to take back the spot nor did anyone ask me to surrender my new spot... more the pity for me for I do enjoy sitting the other side of the screen as well.)

I will wholeheartedly agree with all of those points. For some people however, I have heard them say "a bad GM is better than no GM".

Kovoston wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I learned a long time ago, "Always look "UP"." When you enter a room, an alley, a building, a tunnel, a hallway, or even the woods. "Looks around. Front, both sides, down around my feet, behind, and UP." Always look up!!

Drop one black spiral dancer on my head in a tunnel and botch the roll and frenzy in thrall of the wyrm and end up skull humping the corpse... .shame on you..... if it happens TWICE... shame on me...

Once is all it took. I'm actually 'renown' in our groups for looking up.

What type of Garou were you playing?

It was a Get of Fenris metis who's metis 'deformity' was an insanity where he would 'see' goblins and get into fights with them. Course.. he was the only one who could see them. he once beat up a salvation army Bell ringing santa too.. but that was on principal. Not due to his insanity.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Well being honest I think you made it up. lol

But no. Are you now saying that you front the three grand purchase and they pay you when you get back? if they're not handing you the credit cards or hundredfs in cash prior?


And as an aside.. WHERE Are all these "GAMERS" that are scared of the internet and computers!?!? They tend to go hand in hand, and -heavily- so. "Oh we don't trust dhem dar.... credit cards or dhem new fangled computers. They can take your soul! But.... we'll play RPGs and spend THOUSANDS a year to do so!!"

*Twitch*

Where are these people? How come in two decades plus of playing and going to many many conventions and stuff have I not seen them? Or met them? Now.... gamers that only have a nodding acquaintanceship with soap? I've met THOSE guys... but what gamer doesn't have a computer (Or two.. or three.. or more.. I've got my desktop, two Ipads and a Kindle Fire, with in REACH, right this second. In this room. two more desk tops and a laptop))? What person that's young enough to be into RPG gaming and spending money on them... .doesn't trust Amazon with their credit cards? Where are these technophobic Gamers hiding?

No I do not front the cash (even I dont have that kind of disposable income regularly). I tell them a week before I plan to go and they give me the cash two or three days prior.

As to the "technophobic."
You are not the norm.
You are the exception.
Out of my current RL group (20 people) only 3 of us own at least one computer.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Kovoston wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I learned a long time ago, "Always look "UP"." When you enter a room, an alley, a building, a tunnel, a hallway, or even the woods. "Looks around. Front, both sides, down around my feet, behind, and UP." Always look up!!

Drop one black spiral dancer on my head in a tunnel and botch the roll and frenzy in thrall of the wyrm and end up skull humping the corpse... .shame on you..... if it happens TWICE... shame on me...

Once is all it took. I'm actually 'renown' in our groups for looking up.

What type of Garou were you playing?

It was a Get of Fenris metis who's metis 'deformity' was an insanity where he would 'see' goblins and get into fights with them. Course.. he was the only one who could see them. he once beat up a salvation army Bell ringing santa too.. but that was on principal. Not due to his insanity.

Hail mighty Fenris!

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Godogma wrote:Yeah on that the GM likes to break weapons thing... Weapons are hard targets to hit (requiring a called shot)and most of them are megadamage structures in Rifts. Having them break all the time is a prime example of a douchebag GM.

Not always in Rifts when that happens. As for MDC weapons, they have light MDC and are rather easy to break considering Rifts power creep.

I actually agree with Godogma.. if your GM is routinely breaking your weapons he's a Dbag. I've been playing over 20 years. I can count the number of times my weapon has broken on one.. maybe two hands, and those times were perfectly reasonable.

More than once on these boards I've heard of GMs that seem to delight in letting you roll a character, then destroying all your weapons. There was one thread where a guy ended up with a SDC pistol or something in Rifts earth trying to do adventures against people with MD weapons and armor.

I get 'challenge' but yeah... those guys are Dbags. I wouldn't play with um. A 'challenge' isn't taking on a god with a sharpened stick.

I am not arguing that it is not a d-bag thing to do, just that it usually happens in other games or very rarely in Rifts. I have done it to my own players but not to every weapon they own. Usually when I do it, there is a better weapon waiting for them at the end of the combat.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Godogma wrote:

Smashed wrote:I've learned to not worry about the GM having leverage over my character, and just play my character and have fun.

For some GM's its not about having fun... It's about winning the game or railroading the way the game is heading or something else in their twisted psyche and it's really not any fun to play with them but they may be for whatever reason your only option so you learn to work around them.

There is no such thing as no other options. With Skype, Chats, PbP, and the such there are always other options. A Bad GM is never your only choice.

Those options require a computer. I know at least 2 dozen gamers that do not own one or do not have an internet connection. As for myself, Skype is out considering lack of camera, chats and PbP have never interested me. You are correct there are other options but sometimes you are very limited in them.

You know two dozen gamers.... assuming gamers to be at least teens or older... who don't have a computer in the year 2012? Do you game in Modadeshu? You actually know, 24 different gamers, and not one of them has a computer or internet?

LOL

Gimme a break.

Yes, I do. Considering I have met at least 100 or more gamers in my time, it is not that surprising. In my current group 3 out of 8 do not own a computer.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Well being honest I think you made it up. lol

But no. Are you now saying that you front the three grand purchase and they pay you when you get back? if they're not handing you the credit cards or hundredfs in cash prior?


And as an aside.. WHERE Are all these "GAMERS" that are scared of the internet and computers!?!? They tend to go hand in hand, and -heavily- so. "Oh we don't trust dhem dar.... credit cards or dhem new fangled computers. They can take your soul! But.... we'll play RPGs and spend THOUSANDS a year to do so!!"

*Twitch*

Where are these people? How come in two decades plus of playing and going to many many conventions and stuff have I not seen them? Or met them? Now.... gamers that only have a nodding acquaintanceship with soap? I've met THOSE guys... but what gamer doesn't have a computer (Or two.. or three.. or more.. I've got my desktop, two Ipads and a Kindle Fire, with in REACH, right this second. In this room. two more desk tops and a laptop))? What person that's young enough to be into RPG gaming and spending money on them... .doesn't trust Amazon with their credit cards? Where are these technophobic Gamers hiding?

No I do not front the cash (even I dont have that kind of disposable income regularly). I tell them a week before I plan to go and they give me the cash two or three days prior.

As to the "technophobic."
You are not the norm.
You are the exception.
Out of my current RL group (20 people) only 3 of us own at least one computer.

I'm sorry but I don't believe that YOU are the norm. you're telling me only 1.5 per 10 people have a computer? I'm just not buying it. Nation wide norm is far far higher than that, and among gamers I suspect it's higher.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/america.htm

This blows your numbers way way out of the water. Short version:

"347,394,870 estimated population for Northern America in 2011.

273,067,546 Internet users and 78.6% penetration rate as of Dec.31, 2011"

So does this.

http://www.marketingcharts.com/direct/m ... ers-14618/

It's talking about cell phones but there are numbers for computer owners too, putting them at 76%, almost three years ago.

So... the numbers for general population are over 75%. While you're claiming 15%. It's not impossible. Maybe you found the only group of RPG players in the US that don't use computers. I assume those that don't do come in groups... but nation wide average more than sides with me. Just over 3/4ths of the population own computers and use the internet.

If you're gaming with 20 people and only 3 have computers.. you're not the norm. The norm would be 15 or 16 of them having computers and 4 or 5 not.

There's always the option of not gaming at all.

In the end, gaming with people you don't like just means your using them for your own ends. So you end up tainted by it anyway.

If you do like them but don't like how they game - atleast there's some merit there, as your spending time with them.

I'm surprised to hear about this many gamers not having computers, or a computer but no internet access. That's very very rare in my experience. I know very few people whom don't own computers, in fact having multiple ones isn't uncommon. Just about everyone I know has internet at home as well. The only exception I can immediately think of is my grandmother, and homeless people. Even my grandpa on the other side of the family, and my grandmother in law have computers though.

Almost everyone I know shops online as well, even most of the elderly folks I know (and if they don't directly they'll get one of the young-uns to do it for them). I have yet to meet a gamer that doesn't have a computer and internet access though (unless we're talking about a temporary situation, where their computer broke down and they needed time to save up money for a new one).
Sounds to me like either there's a deliberate attempt to be anachronistic going on with these computer-less internet-free individuals, or access to technology is different where they live, or there's something culturally different, or some combination of those things.

To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

EmeraldToucanet wrote:I'm surprised to hear about this many gamers not having computers, or a computer but no internet access. That's very very rare in my experience. I know very few people whom don't own computers, in fact having multiple ones isn't uncommon. Just about everyone I know has internet at home as well. The only exception I can immediately think of is my grandmother, and homeless people. Even my grandpa on the other side of the family, and my grandmother in law have computers though.

Almost everyone I know shops online as well, even most of the elderly folks I know (and if they don't directly they'll get one of the young-uns to do it for them). I have yet to meet a gamer that doesn't have a computer and internet access though (unless we're talking about a temporary situation, where their computer broke down and they needed time to save up money for a new one).
Sounds to me like either there's a deliberate attempt to be anachronistic going on with these computer-less internet-free individuals, or access to technology is different where they live, or there's something culturally different, or some combination of those things.

A gamer having a computer but no internet connection at home (I specified this because some people, while not having a internet connection at home can go else where to connect to the net, but where they do that may not always be conducive to online gaming) I could find reasonably plausible.

Even for people with a computer and internet, if they have not web cam or microphone, then Skype would not be an option. I had gone almost three years with a computer and internet but no microphone.

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

I think they mean an attacker is targeting their weapon and destroying it, not the weapon breaking because of defect or neglect.

The Beast wrote:

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

I think they mean an attacker is targeting their weapon and destroying it, not the weapon breaking because of defect or neglect.

That's the thing. I don't think so. Reading on here it seems that many GMs delight in just, breaking weapons or stealing them off the PC's.

I'm not talking about the guy with a rail gun and the group he's going after have like pistols and someone goes "hey shoot hte gun first. THEN the guy"

It seems almost common that people have mentioned repeatedly that they don't get attached to weapons or vehicles because their GM's destroy them so regularly that it's a 'given' for them.

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

The U.S. military has a specific rifle for this chambered in .50 caliber. It is designated as a anti-equipment rifle. One shot from those will definitely break another gun. When I refer to breaking weapons in game, I mean the GM has the enemies specifically target it for destruction.

dragonfett wrote:

EmeraldToucanet wrote:I'm surprised to hear about this many gamers not having computers, or a computer but no internet access. That's very very rare in my experience. I know very few people whom don't own computers, in fact having multiple ones isn't uncommon. Just about everyone I know has internet at home as well. The only exception I can immediately think of is my grandmother, and homeless people. Even my grandpa on the other side of the family, and my grandmother in law have computers though.

Almost everyone I know shops online as well, even most of the elderly folks I know (and if they don't directly they'll get one of the young-uns to do it for them). I have yet to meet a gamer that doesn't have a computer and internet access though (unless we're talking about a temporary situation, where their computer broke down and they needed time to save up money for a new one).
Sounds to me like either there's a deliberate attempt to be anachronistic going on with these computer-less internet-free individuals, or access to technology is different where they live, or there's something culturally different, or some combination of those things.

A gamer having a computer but no internet connection at home (I specified this because some people, while not having a internet connection at home can go else where to connect to the net, but where they do that may not always be conducive to online gaming) I could find reasonably plausible.

Even for people with a computer and internet, if they have not web cam or microphone, then Skype would not be an option. I had gone almost three years with a computer and internet but no microphone.

The computer but no internet at home is the most common problem of people I meet. Some of the people without computers is because they are poor. For them it is a choice between the computer and roleplaying books. They choose the roleplaying because the cost is spread out over months of purchasing (yes, I realize you can finance a computer but the payments can be too much for some) and they figure they would get more use out of the books. There are even a few that hate technology enough to not want a computer. There are a multitude of reasons for not owning a computer, especially in this difficult job market. I also know some who have had a computer but it crapped out and they have not been able to afford another.

As for the Skype thing, I do not have microphone or camera for my computer. A lot of the people I know are the same. That presents another barrier to online gaming. I am not saying it is totally impossible for most people with lack of access to roleplay online, just difficult.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

I think they mean an attacker is targeting their weapon and destroying it, not the weapon breaking because of defect or neglect.

That's the thing. I don't think so. Reading on here it seems that many GMs delight in just, breaking weapons or stealing them off the PC's.

I'm not talking about the guy with a rail gun and the group he's going after have like pistols and someone goes "hey shoot hte gun first. THEN the guy"

It seems almost common that people have mentioned repeatedly that they don't get attached to weapons or vehicles because their GM's destroy them so regularly that it's a 'given' for them.

I have only had one GM that delighted in breaking and stealing every weapon I purchased or made. Needless to say, I do not play in any of his games anymore. Sometimes though, I find it adds to the drama to specifically break or steal a characters weapon. As far as theft, I always let them track the thief and the weapon down for recovery.

I never said a shot from an anti-materiel rifle wouldn't wreck your gun. If they shoot at you with a Barrett .50 and it hits your gun in a position where your gun is across your chest you can bend over and kiss your @$$ goodbye - it's designed to go through tank armor. It has no problem going through you, your gun, your body armor and the two guys behind you.

Stealing a character's weapon I can see, it gives the characters something to do when they're working to recover a favorite weapon. Breaking it ... well it depends on the mood I'm in how I'd take that, and how many times he'd done this crap before.

Considering the costs of guns and stuff in Rifts I might be very very physically displeased with a GM for that one depending on how much time he made it take due to monetary rewards and sale-able items we were able to pick up. How many times he'd done it would also play a part in my decision on whether or not to physically demonstrate my displeasure.

flatline wrote:What are some of the things you've learned to always/never do in order to avoid giving the GM unnecessary leverage over your character?

I'll start with the first one I learned: Never play a race that qualifies as a Lesser Being for the purposes of the Summon Lesser Being spell. One of my first GMs would whisk qualifying player characters away whenever he felt like it. It was super frustrating if the antagonist could summon you at will to do his bidding...

--flatline

Back to the OP - I just thought of this one as well: "Are you sure?"

Now, every time I hear/see (If it's text based) a GM say/write these words I see a mental image of General Ackbar screaming, "IT'S A TRAP!!"

Seriously, I've had two GMs who use this phrase a lot. Generally, it means one of these things:
- your character is about to do something stupid that, more likely than not, is going to get him killed.
- your character is about to do something incredibly brave/heroic, but stupid, and, more likely than not, is going to him killed. Heroically.
- your character is on to something, an Easter egg if you will, that the GM has INTENTIONALLY has put in the game to do one of three things - Eff with your character or the group, provide "bonus scene" for general entertainment or provide an excellent boon to the group for having found whatever it is.

As you can see, you have a chance for something REALLY awesome or entertaining... But if you're not paying attention... You're going to have to be rolling up a new character for having died, in a usually stupid and gory manner.

Icefalcon wrote:

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

The U.S. military has a specific rifle for this chambered in .50 caliber. It is designated as a anti-equipment rifle. One shot from those will definitely break another gun. When I refer to breaking weapons in game, I mean the GM has the enemies specifically target it for destruction.

You do know it's designated "Anti-equipment" because there's rules and stuff about using that size weapon 'DIRECTLY' against human targets right?

And for the record, "Dog tags" Are equipment, "Hats" Are equipment "Sunglasses" Are equipment, "Uniforms" Are equipment.

It's a technicality to get around putting a bullet the size of a banana through a human man. lol.

Icefalcon wrote:

dragonfett wrote:

EmeraldToucanet wrote:I'm surprised to hear about this many gamers not having computers, or a computer but no internet access. That's very very rare in my experience. I know very few people whom don't own computers, in fact having multiple ones isn't uncommon. Just about everyone I know has internet at home as well. The only exception I can immediately think of is my grandmother, and homeless people. Even my grandpa on the other side of the family, and my grandmother in law have computers though.

Almost everyone I know shops online as well, even most of the elderly folks I know (and if they don't directly they'll get one of the young-uns to do it for them). I have yet to meet a gamer that doesn't have a computer and internet access though (unless we're talking about a temporary situation, where their computer broke down and they needed time to save up money for a new one).
Sounds to me like either there's a deliberate attempt to be anachronistic going on with these computer-less internet-free individuals, or access to technology is different where they live, or there's something culturally different, or some combination of those things.

A gamer having a computer but no internet connection at home (I specified this because some people, while not having a internet connection at home can go else where to connect to the net, but where they do that may not always be conducive to online gaming) I could find reasonably plausible.

Even for people with a computer and internet, if they have not web cam or microphone, then Skype would not be an option. I had gone almost three years with a computer and internet but no microphone.

The computer but no internet at home is the most common problem of people I meet. Some of the people without computers is because they are poor. For them it is a choice between the computer and roleplaying books. They choose the roleplaying because the cost is spread out over months of purchasing (yes, I realize you can finance a computer but the payments can be too much for some) and they figure they would get more use out of the books. There are even a few that hate technology enough to not want a computer. There are a multitude of reasons for not owning a computer, especially in this difficult job market. I also know some who have had a computer but it crapped out and they have not been able to afford another.

As for the Skype thing, I do not have microphone or camera for my computer. A lot of the people I know are the same. That presents another barrier to online gaming. I am not saying it is totally impossible for most people with lack of access to roleplay online, just difficult.

If you can afford multiple $30 to $60 game books and are buying them you can afford a computer. As the numbers I showed pointed out, most people have them. "Most" being over 75%. People that are so poor that they can't afford a computer (( I'm not stupid. I know they exist. I'm not rich. I'm pretty poor myself)), generally aren't buying $100s in game books either.

And again, I'm not so stupid as to think there are NO people, that hate technology. I -know- they exist, but seriously people. What are the numbers? 3 out of 4 people have computers. What is the percentage of people that are so tech, hating that they REFUSE to have computers? 1%? 2%? You're talking about one or two people per 100.

Those people playing RPGs are in the 'Geek culture'. Or "Nerd Culture" (( I prefer geek but some prefer nerds)) They don't "JUST PLAY PNP RPGS" the same people that play RPGs also play video games. They do stuff on the net. They engage in more than just one 'Geek prone behavior/hobby'.

I seriously question the numbers of people that are for some reason unknown to me, sooooo anti Technology, that they refuse computers, but are dropping big bucks to play RPGs. Especially ones in an ultra scifi setting (Rifts). "I hate technology and wont' have a computer in my house!!! ..... Now... where are the stats for the Glitter boy again? Or can I have a borg that used to be a juicer?".

I'm poor. I don't have a ton of knock around cash. I save up. I prioritize. I don't smoke or drink. I don't go out an 'party'. I save my money and buy a computer, or an Ipad. And yes. I save and buy RPGs. (( And other books)) They are my vices. RPG gaming is not a cheep hobby. Getting into a game is usually a $30 MINIMUM investment, and to have more than just the very core book you're talking 100s of dollars. Now.. yes there are groups that let one guy front the cost and use his books. (( Trust me... *Twitch* I know.... I'm usually the guy)) but still it's not an inexpensive hobby by far. Are there some people too poor to have a computer? Yeah... but they're less than 1/4th of the population. And those people are not all gamers. Gamers are going to be significantly above the bar when it comes to technology and early adoption of it.

I quite agree Pepsi Jedi, but there are areas of the country in which internet connections that are worth a tinkers dam are so expensive its cost prohibitive to use them. A friend of mine in Montana had to pay somewhere around 100+$ a month for a bandwidth rationed satellite connection to get internet at all.

Some places still have dial-up as their best or that selfsame uber expensive crappy satellite connection. It doesn't make sense, but evidently some places just aren't in a hurry to run the necessary lines of infrastructure.

Godogma wrote:I quite agree Pepsi Jedi, but there are areas of the country in which internet connections that are worth a tinkers dam are so expensive its cost prohibitive to use them. A friend of mine in Montana had to pay somewhere around 100+$ a month for a bandwidth rationed satellite connection to get internet at all.

Some places still have dial-up as their best or that selfsame uber expensive crappy satellite connection. It doesn't make sense, but evidently some places just aren't in a hurry to run the necessary lines of infrastructure.

I ran on dial-up for 14 years before the local phone company ended up finally making broad-band possible a few years ago. So I know personally how long it takes many places to upgrade, and my phone company upgraded more to reduce the overhead cost of maintaining those power networks to maintain conventionally electrical wires by switching to fiber optic than anything else.

Godogma wrote:I quite agree Pepsi Jedi, but there are areas of the country in which internet connections that are worth a tinkers dam are so expensive its cost prohibitive to use them. A friend of mine in Montana had to pay somewhere around 100+$ a month for a bandwidth rationed satellite connection to get internet at all.

Some places still have dial-up as their best or that selfsame uber expensive crappy satellite connection. It doesn't make sense, but evidently some places just aren't in a hurry to run the necessary lines of infrastructure.

Yes. Such places do exist. Out in the boondocks of the country. I'm even sure every state has such places. NYC might have so much connectivity that it's unreal but I'm sure there's some place in upstate NY that has crappy connection or the like.

The thing is, this is 2012. Those places are becoming fewer and fewer. They surely exist. I'm sure the farms that are 90 miles from any city out in Montana like you're describing might not have cable internet (( but I'd also bet that many DO.)) Still that's not your average person nor situation. And that's the thing. If more than 3 out of 4 people have personal computers of some fashion and roughly the same amount has ACCESS to internet (( even if it's not at their home)) Then you can't blame that part in the over all equation.

That's just my point. Some people here are acting like there's huge portions of America and more over huge portions of the Gaming community with out access to either. NATION WIDE averages, which include my 98 year old grandmaw, and my idiot cousin that couldn't find his own rear with both hands and a map, put computer ownership over 75%. Heck. People in PRISON have internet access. It's not nearly as hard to get as some are making out. Nor is '3 people out of 20' or '15%' the nation wide average for computer ownership. That's not the norm. That's highly abnormal.

Am I above average for computer ownership? Probably. I'll fully say I'm "above average" but "15%" is ONE FIFTH the nation wide average. If you have a group of 20 people. 15 or more should have computers. If only 3 do, you're 5 times below the national average. Me owning 6 computers and my wife two (Not counting game systems), still only equates to two people, or one house hold with computer access. It's not like we rate 8 times. We're still only two people.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Godogma wrote:I quite agree Pepsi Jedi, but there are areas of the country in which internet connections that are worth a tinkers dam are so expensive its cost prohibitive to use them. A friend of mine in Montana had to pay somewhere around 100+$ a month for a bandwidth rationed satellite connection to get internet at all.

Some places still have dial-up as their best or that selfsame uber expensive crappy satellite connection. It doesn't make sense, but evidently some places just aren't in a hurry to run the necessary lines of infrastructure.

Yes. Such places do exist. Out in the boondocks of the country. I'm even sure every state has such places. NYC might have so much connectivity that it's unreal but I'm sure there's some place in upstate NY that has crappy connection or the like.

The thing is, this is 2012. Those places are becoming fewer and fewer. They surely exist. I'm sure the farms that are 90 miles from any city out in Montana like you're describing might not have cable internet (( but I'd also bet that many DO.)) Still that's not your average person nor situation. And that's the thing. If more than 3 out of 4 people have personal computers of some fashion and roughly the same amount has ACCESS to internet (( even if it's not at their home)) Then you can't blame that part in the over all equation.

That's just my point. Some people here are acting like there's huge portions of America and more over huge portions of the Gaming community with out access to either. NATION WIDE averages, which include my 98 year old grandmaw, and my idiot cousin that couldn't find his own rear with both hands and a map, put computer ownership over 75%. Heck. People in PRISON have internet access. It's not nearly as hard to get as some are making out. Nor is '3 people out of 20' or '15%' the nation wide average for computer ownership. That's not the norm. That's highly abnormal.

Am I above average for computer ownership? Probably. I'll fully say I'm "above average" but "15%" is ONE FIFTH the nation wide average. If you have a group of 20 people. 15 or more should have computers. If only 3 do, you're 5 times below the national average. Me owning 6 computers and my wife two (Not counting game systems), still only equates to two people, or one house hold with computer access. It's not like we rate 8 times. We're still only two people.

Access to the internet =/= comp ownership
75% may have access to the net that does not mean they get online (or if they do it does not mean they use their own personal computer).

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

The U.S. military has a specific rifle for this chambered in .50 caliber. It is designated as a anti-equipment rifle. One shot from those will definitely break another gun. When I refer to breaking weapons in game, I mean the GM has the enemies specifically target it for destruction.

You do know it's designated "Anti-equipment" because there's rules and stuff about using that size weapon 'DIRECTLY' against human targets right?

And for the record, "Dog tags" Are equipment, "Hats" Are equipment "Sunglasses" Are equipment, "Uniforms" Are equipment.

It's a technicality to get around putting a bullet the size of a banana through a human man. lol.

I know. One of my friends was telling me about how the military gets around the rules like that. LOL

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Godogma wrote:I quite agree Pepsi Jedi, but there are areas of the country in which internet connections that are worth a tinkers dam are so expensive its cost prohibitive to use them. A friend of mine in Montana had to pay somewhere around 100+$ a month for a bandwidth rationed satellite connection to get internet at all.

Some places still have dial-up as their best or that selfsame uber expensive crappy satellite connection. It doesn't make sense, but evidently some places just aren't in a hurry to run the necessary lines of infrastructure.

Yes. Such places do exist. Out in the boondocks of the country. I'm even sure every state has such places. NYC might have so much connectivity that it's unreal but I'm sure there's some place in upstate NY that has crappy connection or the like.

The thing is, this is 2012. Those places are becoming fewer and fewer. They surely exist. I'm sure the farms that are 90 miles from any city out in Montana like you're describing might not have cable internet (( but I'd also bet that many DO.)) Still that's not your average person nor situation. And that's the thing. If more than 3 out of 4 people have personal computers of some fashion and roughly the same amount has ACCESS to internet (( even if it's not at their home)) Then you can't blame that part in the over all equation.

That's just my point. Some people here are acting like there's huge portions of America and more over huge portions of the Gaming community with out access to either. NATION WIDE averages, which include my 98 year old grandmaw, and my idiot cousin that couldn't find his own rear with both hands and a map, put computer ownership over 75%. Heck. People in PRISON have internet access. It's not nearly as hard to get as some are making out. Nor is '3 people out of 20' or '15%' the nation wide average for computer ownership. That's not the norm. That's highly abnormal.

Am I above average for computer ownership? Probably. I'll fully say I'm "above average" but "15%" is ONE FIFTH the nation wide average. If you have a group of 20 people. 15 or more should have computers. If only 3 do, you're 5 times below the national average. Me owning 6 computers and my wife two (Not counting game systems), still only equates to two people, or one house hold with computer access. It's not like we rate 8 times. We're still only two people.

Access to the internet =/= comp ownership
75% may have access to the net that does not mean they get online (or if they do it does not mean they use their own personal computer).

Very true. It DOES mean they could should they wish. (( Access the internet)) and as I've shown above, the numbers for computer ownership are above 75%, and the numbers for access to the internet are about the same.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Godogma wrote:I quite agree Pepsi Jedi, but there are areas of the country in which internet connections that are worth a tinkers dam are so expensive its cost prohibitive to use them. A friend of mine in Montana had to pay somewhere around 100+$ a month for a bandwidth rationed satellite connection to get internet at all.

Some places still have dial-up as their best or that selfsame uber expensive crappy satellite connection. It doesn't make sense, but evidently some places just aren't in a hurry to run the necessary lines of infrastructure.

Yes. Such places do exist. Out in the boondocks of the country. I'm even sure every state has such places. NYC might have so much connectivity that it's unreal but I'm sure there's some place in upstate NY that has crappy connection or the like.

The thing is, this is 2012. Those places are becoming fewer and fewer. They surely exist. I'm sure the farms that are 90 miles from any city out in Montana like you're describing might not have cable internet (( but I'd also bet that many DO.)) Still that's not your average person nor situation. And that's the thing. If more than 3 out of 4 people have personal computers of some fashion and roughly the same amount has ACCESS to internet (( even if it's not at their home)) Then you can't blame that part in the over all equation.

That's just my point. Some people here are acting like there's huge portions of America and more over huge portions of the Gaming community with out access to either. NATION WIDE averages, which include my 98 year old grandmaw, and my idiot cousin that couldn't find his own rear with both hands and a map, put computer ownership over 75%. Heck. People in PRISON have internet access. It's not nearly as hard to get as some are making out. Nor is '3 people out of 20' or '15%' the nation wide average for computer ownership. That's not the norm. That's highly abnormal.

Am I above average for computer ownership? Probably. I'll fully say I'm "above average" but "15%" is ONE FIFTH the nation wide average. If you have a group of 20 people. 15 or more should have computers. If only 3 do, you're 5 times below the national average. Me owning 6 computers and my wife two (Not counting game systems), still only equates to two people, or one house hold with computer access. It's not like we rate 8 times. We're still only two people.

I am not arguing the averages or even stating that my gaming groups contain mostly people without computers. I am not even stating that every reason of not owning one that I presented in my last post is normal, just possible. Some of those reasons, I only have one friend that falls into it. Some of those types (like technophobes) I have never met. I am just stating the possibilities.

The only thing I was trying to get across was that I indeed know 2 dozen people who do not own a computer at all. Some of them have various reasons, some had one at a certain point but do not now (again for various reasons). Some of the friends I have that do have a computer, do not have a microphone or camera. I am not trying to ignore facts here, just trying to say online gaming is not a possibility for everyone.

All you need for online gaming is a dice rolling macro and a simple internet relay chat program and a keyboard. I've been playing games online with friends from all around the world for years without a camera or microphone. OpenRPG and WebRPG were/are also options and they include maps and tokens and the like as an option.

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

under normal circumstances maybe, I have seen hundreds of broken weapons though when I was in the Military. Field and Combat conditions are rough on weapons, they break they can be fixed (usually) but if it requires more than just clearing your weapon to fix its broken.

Godogma wrote:I quite agree Pepsi Jedi, but there are areas of the country in which internet connections that are worth a tinkers dam are so expensive its cost prohibitive to use them. A friend of mine in Montana had to pay somewhere around 100+$ a month for a bandwidth rationed satellite connection to get internet at all.

Some places still have dial-up as their best or that selfsame uber expensive crappy satellite connection. It doesn't make sense, but evidently some places just aren't in a hurry to run the necessary lines of infrastructure.

Ouch, around where I live (Northern CA) slowly but surely a gig per second speeds are coming in. I would be out of a job if I had to settle with that poor of selection for internet connection (or rather I'd have to move to somewhere with better connections available to be able to effectively do my work). I do remember the dial up days though.

On the traps to avoid note, I too have noticed GMs love to put players in positions where they lose equipment, rather a lot. My group is really good at crashing vehicles, which doesn't help, but a good number of our equipment losses have been due to unexpected disastrous situations. I've started making characters that don't really rely so much on gear for this reason. Having an operator, or someone else that knows how to build or fix things can help a lot too.

eliakon wrote:

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

under normal circumstances maybe, I have seen hundreds of broken weapons though when I was in the Military. Field and Combat conditions are rough on weapons, they break they can be fixed (usually) but if it requires more than just clearing your weapon to fix its broken.

I know that under combat conditions weapons break, especially weapons that weren't well designed for anything other than a clean range. They've made several revisions to the M16 system and most of the variants are still crap. They send hot exhaust back into the feeding system, causing wear and tear and some of my buddies who went to Iraq and Afghanistan had times when their weapons just wouldn't fire at all. Use a gun that's designed to fit your situation instead of one the bean counters decided you should and most of that goes away.

But battle conditions in roleplaying games tend to be more street level urban combat instead of high desert and Vietnamese jungle.

Godogma wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

under normal circumstances maybe, I have seen hundreds of broken weapons though when I was in the Military. Field and Combat conditions are rough on weapons, they break they can be fixed (usually) but if it requires more than just clearing your weapon to fix its broken.

I know that under combat conditions weapons break, especially weapons that weren't well designed for anything other than a clean range. They've made several revisions to the M16 system and most of the variants are still crap. They send hot exhaust back into the feeding system, causing wear and tear and some of my buddies who went to Iraq and Afghanistan had times when their weapons just wouldn't fire at all. Use a gun that's designed to fit your situation instead of one the bean counters decided you should and most of that goes away.

But battle conditions in roleplaying games tend to be more street level urban combat instead of high desert and Vietnamese jungle.

But you're forgetting that weapons in Rifts are by and large made of MDC materials. You could shoot them a million times and they won't 'wear out'. You could seriously use your laser rifle as a sledge hammer to break rocks, and it won't scratch. It's MDC. The only thing that's going to hurt them is MDC damage. Which you don't get out side of direct MD Damage or being in MD explosions (( Or I guess like MD Dragon breath damage))

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Godogma wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

under normal circumstances maybe, I have seen hundreds of broken weapons though when I was in the Military. Field and Combat conditions are rough on weapons, they break they can be fixed (usually) but if it requires more than just clearing your weapon to fix its broken.

I know that under combat conditions weapons break, especially weapons that weren't well designed for anything other than a clean range. They've made several revisions to the M16 system and most of the variants are still crap. They send hot exhaust back into the feeding system, causing wear and tear and some of my buddies who went to Iraq and Afghanistan had times when their weapons just wouldn't fire at all. Use a gun that's designed to fit your situation instead of one the bean counters decided you should and most of that goes away.

But battle conditions in roleplaying games tend to be more street level urban combat instead of high desert and Vietnamese jungle.

But you're forgetting that weapons in Rifts are by and large made of MDC materials. You could shoot them a million times and they won't 'wear out'. You could seriously use your laser rifle as a sledge hammer to break rocks, and it won't scratch. It's MDC. The only thing that's going to hurt them is MDC damage. Which you don't get out side of direct MD Damage or being in MD explosions (( Or I guess like MD Dragon breath damage))

Just because the exterior housing is made of MDC materials doesn't mean that every component inside is also made of MDC materials. Also, connections can come loose, components can wear out, heat sinks can become clogged and cause out-of-spec heating of components, etc. There's all sorts of ways machines can fail that have nothing to do with how much physical damage their housing can take.

MDC encourages broken thinking like this. That's one of the many reasons that I hate the mega-damage system. It was kind of okay for Robotech. It should have stopped there. We are all stupider because of it.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Godogma wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Godogma wrote:To get off the anachronistic lack of computer habits of some people; Icefalcon, I'm both a gamer/collector of games and collector of many firearms. I've only had one break on me and it was a WW1 issue bolt action which had a broken spring... The gun was manufactured in the 1890s, guns rarely ever break. I've fired literally thousands of rounds and aside from jamming (some guns just don't like certain types of ammunition) if your guns are even cursorily maintained when they need it your gun "breaking" is so rare with modern materials that it's nearly unheard of unless you're subjecting it to abuse it wasn't designed for.

under normal circumstances maybe, I have seen hundreds of broken weapons though when I was in the Military. Field and Combat conditions are rough on weapons, they break they can be fixed (usually) but if it requires more than just clearing your weapon to fix its broken.

I know that under combat conditions weapons break, especially weapons that weren't well designed for anything other than a clean range. They've made several revisions to the M16 system and most of the variants are still crap. They send hot exhaust back into the feeding system, causing wear and tear and some of my buddies who went to Iraq and Afghanistan had times when their weapons just wouldn't fire at all. Use a gun that's designed to fit your situation instead of one the bean counters decided you should and most of that goes away.

But battle conditions in roleplaying games tend to be more street level urban combat instead of high desert and Vietnamese jungle.

But you're forgetting that weapons in Rifts are by and large made of MDC materials. You could shoot them a million times and they won't 'wear out'. You could seriously use your laser rifle as a sledge hammer to break rocks, and it won't scratch. It's MDC. The only thing that's going to hurt them is MDC damage. Which you don't get out side of direct MD Damage or being in MD explosions (( Or I guess like MD Dragon breath damage))

Just because the exterior housing is made of MDC materials doesn't mean that every component inside is also made of MDC materials. Also, connections can come loose, components can wear out, heat sinks can become clogged and cause out-of-spec heating of components, etc. There's all sorts of ways machines can fail that have nothing to do with how much physical damage their housing can take.

MDC encourages broken thinking like this. That's one of the many reasons that I hate the mega-damage system. It was kind of okay for Robotech. It should have stopped there. We are all stupider because of it.

--flatline

Please show me anywhere in the books where it's indicated that just the 'outside' of MD weapons are MD materials and they're filled with SDC stuff on the inside.

It's not broken thinking. We're told they're CONSTRUCTED out of MD materials and have indeed, MD stats. We are not told "They're coated or shelled in MD Materials and filled with SDC innards".

You're taking something -not- in the books. Assuming it's true. Going off that unfounded assumption you're claiming flawed thinking and deducing that the other side is wrong.

Can connections come lose? Yeah, if they suffer MEGA DAMAGE to move them or losen them. Can heat sinks become clogged? We don't know. If they're encased with in MD materials there may be no way for anything to get in there, unless there's MEGA DAMAGE to the casing. Can components 'Wear out"? Not with out the wear and tear being MEGA DAMAGE to damage them.

It's like taking an egg. Throwing it at a tank and cheering. yeah you've put some goo on the tank.. but no matter how 100s or 1000s of eggs you hit on the side of the tank. it's not going to suddenly break. Your argument is to the tune of 'Well if you FILL A tank with 10,000 eggs it'd totally gunk it up, and make it not able to work" and I'm going "Yeah.... but you have to get THROUGH the tank armor before that can happen, and you can't get through tank armor by throwing eggs."

No matter how hard you drop, throw, wack, kick or other wise mishandle a MEGA DAMAGE item, with SDC Strength, you're not going to do more than mess up paint. (( and that's paint, not the MD material itself.))

That's mega damage. No matter how many times you drop the rifle, it's not going to be a mega damage drop. No matter how many times you use the butt of the rifle to hammer in nails or cave in skulls, it's not going to hurt the rifle. At best you might coat it with something and have to clean it. But that doesn't 'break' it. It's made of MD materials. There is no 'Normal wear and tear" on MD Materials unless you're a being that does MD Damage on your own. If you have MD strength, you might be able to muss it up. Or if you're in power armor or something that can do MD with it's hands, that inprecise control over the MD hand on MD gun might start to wear it down or something.

Shy of that, there's no "Handling damage" Of MD weapons. It's one of the HUGE Advantages of HAVING MD material. It doesn't simply wear out. Some will say "Well if you cover up the lens with mud it'll stop the laster from working! or "if you clog the barrel with mud it'll mess up the plasma injector. It can equally be argued that the first MILLISECOND of MD laser or Plasma would obliterate any such minor coating or clogging with non MDC Material and just blow straight through it with no reduction in power or anything. The weakest weakest MD damage out put would blow through a coating of mud or such with out reducing the MDC at all.

If you dunked the barrel in MDC Concrete or something and let it set. Sure that might mess it up, but again you're back to MD effect on MD materials.

The only place I've seen notations of that sort were about Chipwell Power Armor suits actually... About only the exterior being MD and the innards being SDC.

flatline wrote:Just because the exterior housing is made of MDC materials doesn't mean that every component inside is also made of MDC materials.

Agreed.
Likewise, just because an internal component is SDC does not necessarily mean that said component would wear out or corrode.

Also, connections can come loose, components can wear out, heat sinks can become clogged and cause out-of-spec heating of components, etc. There's all sorts of ways machines can fail that have nothing to do with how much physical damage their housing can take.

MDC encourages broken thinking like this. That's one of the many reasons that I hate the mega-damage system. It was kind of okay for Robotech. It should have stopped there. We are all stupider because of it.

--flatline

MDC can provide a logical avenue for dismissing concerns of maintenance for certain settings and certain objects.
But I wouldn't say that makes anybody "stupider."

In the past week, I accidentally dropped my iPhone, and the screen shattered, while simply pulling my keys out of my pocket, AND I got a flat tire, in a new tire, while driving through an open field (big hole in the side-wall).
While these events were certainly realistic, I do not feel that they're the kind of thing that I need to include as regular or semi-regular events in role-playing adventures, and if a GM were to throw them at me, I'd feel rather annoyed.
It's the kind of thing that, while realistic, generally only serves to bog down gameplay and to slow advancement of both character and story.
Kind of like how in real life, I can get a bad night's sleep for no particular reason, and end up being groggy the next day to the point of having (in game terms) various skill and/or attribute penalties.
Or how I could end up with a cold or other minor illness that impairs my performance.
Or how I could end up with allergy problems.

Life is full of little annoyances that crop up regularly, but with such unpredictability and apparent randomness that there is no realistic way to implement them into a game reliably.
The charts and tables required to simulate randomness would be so complex as to grind things to a standstill, and "GM's discretion" would be far to prone to abuse.

Which is why most people don't bother role-playing out this kind of thing, except in unusual circumstances when the plot depends specifically upon them.
Even then, it's usually (from what I've seen, when done appropriately) included in the scenario in the outset, not sprung on the players in the middle of things.