Minies, painted or unpainted?

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:24 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:Didn't you just contradict yourself there? I can't see people going in blind to buy minis for a Robotech game the way they might for a TCG or something like HeroClix. There's just not enough of a consumer base to do that... especially with many fans who have a particular antipathy for one saga or another.

No. While you treat them as one entity, I do recognize that the starter set(s) may need to be more focused in how they are setup to get people in, but does not have to be advertised as catering to a particular saga.

As for the Blind Aspect in getting stuff you don't want... Well that happens. If the Booster packs are defined and hold multiples (in mix type format) aren't you going to run into the same issue? It also means you can have a more diverse force by mix/match from multiple eras which can help the game's longevity I would think. Or you can trade/sell them to get ones you want.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Jefffar wrote:So from a standard booster 2 Macross, 1 Masters, 1 Mospeda, 1 Random.

But doesn't that kind of screw over the Masters Saga and New Generation fans? You'd think the balance ought to go far in favor of the New Generation, since that's the basis for the ongoing (Shadow Chronicles) story. If they add ships to it, the balance skews even more toward the Macross Saga, since that has the most ships as well. (That way, the balance for minis ends up at least 40-18-29.)

Why not do the Boosters as 1 random for each era. That might be a bit small for mini's booster pack, but if the price is proportional...

As for how the Mini's Balance in numbers for each saga I get 41-38-44 (TMS/TRM/NG-TSC) if we go off the mecha/vehicle list one can generate from the 2E RPG before we go with character variations (or even XP levels):

TMS (Total of 41, without non-mecha Infantry)
5-Destroids (if this was 1E could get 2 more)
5-Regular VF-1s (A/J/D/S/R)
5-Armored Battloid VF-1s (A/J/D/S/R)
5-Armored/Super Veritech VF-1s (A/J/S/D/R)
8-Fighter/Helicopters/Space Fighters (might be a bit higher if I did not treat the service branch versions as identical, which they basically are aside from designation IIRC)
3-Electronic Support aircraft (C&C, Recon, etc)
1-Armored Vehicle
4-Regult Batttle Pod variations
2 Officer Pod Variations
2 Zentreadi Power Armor variations
1 Fighter Pod
(I'm omitting the transport aerospace craft, Spiderbug, non-combat vehicles and other capital ships which include the Cyclops Recon Pod)

TRM (Total of 38 without non-mecha infantry, 45 if the Bioroids are setup w/ and w/o hoversleds, get another +1 if AGAC appears in A & B versions like the other mecha they have with model variations)
1-Logan VF
1-AGAC VFH (though A/B would allow for 2)
3-VHT-1s (A1/A2/A3, not counting space mobility option so it could double)
1-VHT-2 (I know not in the show, but its part of the canon comics)
6-nt-Battloids (4 models, 1 w/3 variations)
6-nt-Power Armor (though IIRC there are model variations that might apply)
6-Armored Vehicles (2 models, 1 w/5 variations)
5-Aerospace Fighters (4 models, 1 w/2 variations)
1-Golem Drone
7-Bioroids (5versions, 2 w/upgrade versions to. This doesn't consider if they have Hoversled and non-Hoversled versions)
1-Terminator PA
(I've omitted the Dropship, Shuttles, capital ships, and the Hover-cycle/Truck)

TSC/NG (44 Total, more if non-mecha infantry)
1-MT-21 Dauntless Armored Assault Motorcycle
1-MR-40 Reconnaissance Motorcycle
1-ATT-30 All Terrain Utility Jeep
1-M-70 Kodiak
6-Alpha Models (H/I/Z, Shadow F & Drone, Super)
3-Beta (Shadow & Non-Shadow, Super)
6-Alpha/Beta Combo (1 for each Alpha type)
1-Bioroid Interceptor
1-Condor
1-Conbat Fighter
8-Cyclone Models (3-VR-038, 2 VR-041, 2 VR-052, 1 VR-057, maybe even a 3rd VR-052 w/ and w/o EP-37?)
3-Silverback Models
2-Haydonite Mecha
9-Invid Mecha
(I'm omitting the IMUs, the two non-combat trucks and the warships in the main RPG and NG SB)

With TMS and NG/TSC Infantry are going to be much more limited in number types compared to TRM as they get 15 "armies" plus 2 RM infantry factions (IIRC uniforms from the show), where TMS gets maybe 2 human infantry (Armored and unarmored) and 2 Zentreadi (regular and micronized), and NG/TSC only gets 3 human infantry (2 armored types, 1 unarmored type, the show would add another armor from Wolfe, and then there is the male/female armor variations not looking at either). Toss in Officer and Enlisted versions each get's doubled. MOS types might help beef up TMS/NG if each ASC army is viewed as an MOS.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:50 pm

I will just put this out there since i collect and play mini wargames, I do not buy random packs and hope i get what i need to build an army to play on the battle field. I want to be able to pick and chose. And for me it will mostly be the New Gen stuff because that is my favorite era. That does not mean I will not buy the other eras, in fact i want all of them, and i cannot wait to build a massive zentraedi and Invid force so i can play games with them recreating thier battles before earths involvement.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:04 pm

So perhaps a mix. Random boosters plus some era boxes to get you a good jump on something specific?

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:40 pm

Jefffar wrote:So perhaps a mix. Random boosters plus some era boxes to get you a good jump on something specific?

I am saying no to random boosters of any kind. I want to purchase 10 Alphas and betas and alot more invid without guess work on what i may or may not get. I want the ASC veritechs and may get some of the power armor. But I want lots of Bioroids with sleds.

If this cannot be done then i am all for sticking with Games workshop and a few other games i play where i can pick the models i want to field and play with.

silvermoon383 · Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:10 pm

Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Jefffar wrote:So perhaps a mix. Random boosters plus some era boxes to get you a good jump on something specific?

I am saying no to random boosters of any kind. I want to purchase 10 Alphas and betas and alot more invid without guess work on what i may or may not get. I want the ASC veritechs and may get some of the power armor. But I want lots of Bioroids with sleds.

If this cannot be done then i am all for sticking with Games workshop and a few other games i play where i can pick the models i want to field and play with.

I'm with you. Getting DnD minis was a pain at times because I never knew what I was getting and they were so varied that the figures were almost always proxying for the actual monster(s) we were fighting at the time.

When I picked up Flames of War and could buy boxes or blisters of the exact units I wanted getting my army together was much, much easier.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:42 pm

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Umm...huh? I think you maybe forgot a few....

Well, yes... I didn't multiply everything by three for individual modes. I deliberately didn't include minor background stuff and stuff that doesn't actually figure into the series proper either. That rather skims your list down. If we factor in stuff like alt-modes and minor designs, the balance veers even more sharply toward Macross. The lack of what we might call a visible "ace custom" paint scheme on many mecha really does hurt the latter two sagas too, because you KNOW a mini-maker is going to do characters as well as generic models:

Macross Saga (84-96 minis)

Spoiler:

Army of the Southern Cross (37-43 minis)

Spoiler:

New Generation & Shadow Chronicles (67 minis)

Spoiler:

The balance works out to 47% Macross Saga, 20% Masters Saga, and 33% New Generation. If you're not a Macross Saga fan, that bodes ill for you. Era boxes look like a better bet for everyone to get what they want.

EDIT: Count amended to include two missing Masters Saga shuttles/transports.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:48 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:I deliberately didn't include minor background stuff and stuff that doesn't actually figure into the series proper either. That rather skims your list down.

Uh, this is for the RPG and presumably will use what is available in the show as well as the RPG. I notice you also failed to account for the visible head differences in the Spartas, while including them for Macross and Mospeada. You also failed to include the other Southern Cross warships as well as shuttles. Typical.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:24 pm

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
Tiree wrote:Yes 1/285th scale and Plastic!

So I am not sure if that means painted or not, but I would think so.

When did they announce Plastic? When i talked with Kevin last, it was Pewter, simply because it was easier to do small scale... unless the small scale has changed...
I correct in understanding that the minis will be 1/285 scale?
yeah, so a 2m cyclone rider will be 7mm.

I got it from the Press Release

UPDATE: Robotech® Tactical RPG and Game Pieces

You already know we are planning to release 1/285th scale, plastic game pieces for all eras of Robotech®, starting with the Macross Saga, but you don’t know how awesome it will be. Boy oh boy, do we have big plans. After many contract discussions, planning and market research, we made a major breakthrough on Tuesday with our development partners. Contracts should be signed by next week and full swing development will get underway immediately. We still cannot reveal details, but Robotech® fans (and fans of miniatures) should be thrilled with who we are working with to insure a top quality game, attention to detail and gorgeous game pieces. When I described what we had planned, a sales rep at one of Palladium’s top distributors exclaimed, “What value for the money! Every Robotech® fan will want this game. I know I want one as soon as I can get it.” Unfortunately, that’s not till next year. More details in the weeks to come.

Colonel Wolfe · Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:38 pm

Well, I guess the scope of the project is larger than Kevin thought back in may. if they are going with Plastic, the partner company must be pretty involved in the minis business already...

rtsurfer · Unread post by **rtsurfer** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:07 am

That press release makes me more hopeful for the new game and minis. I'm stll not sure I will buy the [Macross] game/starter set until RM and TNG boosters/pieces are available. It's sorta a catch 22, buy TMS set/pieces then they don't follow through with the other two sagas as is the usual course for RT merchandise, dvds & rpg being the only exception, or wait for RM/TNG and they blame failure of the game on lack of starter set/pieces sale. All this discussion over how to release booster sets may be moot if this is an experienced minis manufacturer as hinted in the press release. If they want to guarentee sales of all three sagas they should put at least one mecha from each saga in any booster set, maybe with cannon fodder pieces as the extra/random pieces.

Colonel Wolfe · Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:31 am

I'll make my final decision on buying the starter once I see who they have partnered with, if its the guy who runs the Macross Battles Blog (Paulson games?), I'll keep my money, He's already said in the past he has little desire to sculpt the masters era.

Alpha 11 · Unread post by **Alpha 11** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:02 am

Jefffar wrote:So from a standard booster 2 Macross, 1 Masters, 1 Mospeda, 1 Random.

I would go for that.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:28 am

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Uh, this is for the RPG and presumably will use what is available in the show as well as the RPG. I notice you also failed to account for the visible head differences in the Spartas, while including them for Macross and Mospeada. You also failed to include the other Southern Cross warships as well as shuttles. Typical.

Actually, hasn't it been billed as a separate game developed by a separate company from Palladium?

As far as head differences in the Spartas... the differences in shape are so minor that it'd be hard to represent on a scale that small, and the official RT material treats all three as a single model. They also don't come with any difference in performance or armament the way the VF-1 or Alpha variants do. The variant Tristar designs are not, AFAIK, officially recognized designs at this time, so their inclusion would be dubious at best. The exclusion of the two shuttles/cargo planes is an honest mistake on my part, so please accept my apologies for that. I will rectify it immediately.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:27 am

Yea that press release does not make me jump up and down with anymore excitement. I am wanting all three eras or nothing at all.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:48 am

@Seto
I have to agree with RSCF you seem to be slanting the results for Macross.
-You've inflated the Armored VF-1J number, as it could be done as a single unit as part of a VF-1J series.
-the VHT-2 Myrm that is in the new comics and canon is missing.
-some of the TRM/NG mecha have versions that might be to similar visually to separate but their capabilities are different and could be handled via a different "pose" so as not to confuse them (VHT-1, the Cyclones, etc).
-it also looks like you have factored characters into TMS in some areas, but not NG/TSC or TRM
-you are omitting ground combat vehicles from all 3 eras (background I admit)
-the Wolfe Flash Back Fighter is absent
-the Carpenter Fighter (if I'm following your list) is also absent
-you missed the two "Coast Guard" ships used in NG
-you missed the Invid ships (one is a simple carrier from NG/TSC, but also the Regent's Scorpion in PttSC)
-you missed some of the PttSC mecha (Overlord, Bioroid Interceptor)
-you missed the 2 other versions of the Silverback (last page of Chapter 4 on it's data file shows the 2E RPG's other 2 versions, PttSC)
-The various Alpha/Beta combos seen used numerous time (they could do it as a Mini, or via rules for docking)
-you missed infantry units that are not mecha based

For TMS: 78 units, 121 if character variations are used. Remove some questionable choices and it would be 56/97 respectively

For TRM: 63 units, 90 if character variations are used. Remove some questionable choices and it would be 51/78 respectively. Though Tri-star variations could be added in, along with Bioroids w/ and w/o hoversleds (assumed only one version) to beef up the numbers

For NG/TSC: 91 units, 148 if character variations are used. Remove some questionable choices and it would be 78/135 respectively. Though the VR-052F/EP-37 could appear as w/ and w/o like the Bioroid Hoversled (and would have character variations). This doesn't even consider Genesis Pit or Inorganics (which may be Regent specific mecha) Invid creations either, so the number could go up further.

Really unless they take character variations into consideration and add super sized objects (warships) and questionable choices (basic unarmed transports), TMS and TRM are pretty close by the RPG listing and the show/infopedia, they both get smothered by NG/TSC (disconnect TSC and NG and they are all pretty close as TSC accounts for like 20+ designs and if the A/B combo is handled via a "docking rule" it could go down a bit more).

Still while we might generate a speculative list of possibilities, those doing the actual work could artificially balance the numbers so each saga is represented equally as far as breakdown.

Spoiler Tags contain a breakdown based on the 2E RPG list, Show, and infopedia breakdown. I probably did miss a few possibilities in the various sagas. The #-x is how many modes it has (may also refer to variants in very specific circumstances), the #-c is how many character variations there are in the show (all get a 1 for generics, anything higher refers to a specific character)

Spoiler:

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:36 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:@Seto
I have to agree with RSCF you seem to be slanting the results for Macross.

Quite the opposite, I'm tempering my list with healthy doses of realism... though I'll admit I have made one or two errors of omission (e.g. the aforementioned shuttles). There's just no way that a game with as small a consumer base as RT's would include EVERY fiddly little background design that's on-screen for all of two seconds, or every one-frame wonder from those handful of comics that still count. They're going to stick to what matters, the prominent designs, the characters, and the prominent background stuff.

ShadowLogan wrote:-You've inflated the Armored VF-1J number, as it could be done as a single unit as part of a VF-1J series.

You're right, that is a CTRL-V error on my part. I'll fix that in a second.

ShadowLogan wrote:-the VHT-2 Myrm that is in the new comics and canon is missing.

Is a "one-panel wonder" and therefore a profoundly unlikely candidate for inclusion, I excluded the VF-X-4 for this same reason.

ShadowLogan wrote:-some of the TRM/NG mecha have versions that might be to similar visually to separate but their capabilities are different and could be handled via a different "pose" so as not to confuse them (VHT-1, the Cyclones, etc).

Really, there are no main mecha with this problem. The VHT-1 only has, as far as the official material is concerned, one version to rule them all. The minor design variations in the head are cosmetic and SO insignificant that most don't even know they're there, and they'd be extremely difficult to model on a 1/285 scale. The different head designs don't come with a different paintjob either.

ShadowLogan wrote:-it also looks like you have factored characters into TMS in some areas, but not NG/TSC or TRM

One omission only, I forgot Marie Angel had a different-colored Logan. The rest, no. There are no "hero color" units in the other two aside from Marie Angel's the way there are in Macross. I counted Maia's VF/A-6ZX from RTSC, since that's got a main character paintjob, but the others all fly/drive the generic version of whatever their issued mecha is. Character colors figure prominently in Macross's designs, and there are a number of very distinctive paint schemes that show up repeatedly, which is why they're included. (Repaints are cheaper than a new model, you see.)

ShadowLogan wrote:-you are omitting ground combat vehicles from all 3 eras (background I admit)

See the above about "fiddly little background designs".

ShadowLogan wrote:-the Wolfe Flash Back Fighter is absent
-the Carpenter Fighter (if I'm following your list) is also absent

Actually, I believe I did catch the Carpenter fighter under "3x Misc. Background Fighter". I didn't feel like listing them all in excruciating detail related to their appearance, since none of them have actual names. The "Wolfe flashback fighter" was another design that's only in one or two seconds of archival footage (only then as a still), and thus is profoundly unlikely to be included.

ShadowLogan wrote:-you missed the two "Coast Guard" ships used in NG

Deliberately left out, actually... those are also really minor, and I doubt they would be included. Certainly they'd be of very limited utility as they don't carry mecha and combat from that generation is principally over land.

ShadowLogan wrote:-you missed the Invid ships (one is a simple carrier from NG/TSC, but also the Regent's Scorpion in PttSC)

I did miss those, yes. My apologies.

ShadowLogan wrote:-you missed some of the PttSC mecha (Overlord, Bioroid Interceptor)

The Overlord is included under "8x various Invid units", I didn't include stuff like the Mortar Scout, however, as those are a one-panel wonder.

ShadowLogan wrote:-you missed the 2 other versions of the Silverback (last page of Chapter 4 on it's data file shows the 2E RPG's other 2 versions, PttSC)

Only one version of the Silverback actually appears in Prelude IIRC, the -L version. (While looking up art for that, I ran across some hilarious ASC propaganda art featuring Baghdad Bob.)

ShadowLogan wrote:-The various Alpha/Beta combos seen used numerous time (they could do it as a Mini, or via rules for docking)

ShadowLogan wrote:-you missed infantry units that are not mecha based

In 1/285 scale? You realize an average-sized infantryman is only going to be 6mm tall at that scale, right? Rather unlikely to be included because of the small size, and the fact that this is a game about giant robots. Who gives a flip about the infantry-who-don't-do-anything?

ShadowLogan wrote:Really unless they take character variations into consideration and add super sized objects (warships) and questionable choices (basic unarmed transports), TMS and TRM are pretty close by the RPG listing and the show/infopedia, they both get smothered by NG/TSC (disconnect TSC and NG and they are all pretty close as TSC accounts for like 20+ designs and if the A/B combo is handled via a "docking rule" it could go down a bit more).

Your counts are dramatically exaggerated with minor background designs, material that only exists in the RPG, and variant models for characters who don't actually have variant designs. My assessment confines the listings to what's actually in Robotech and likely to appear, due to significance, repeated appearance, etc. They're not gonna cover every fiddly little background design with no art and no info from any of the three, they'll stick to what's prominent, recognizable, and most importantly, marketable. Some ancillary craft like the Macross Saga's Avenger II, Comanchero, and VEFR-1, Masters Saga's background fighters (except the Shrewfield), and the New Generation's Condor and Conbat might get the axe too, simply for being too minor.

Colonel Wolfe · Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:10 pm

The VF-1R is a one-second wonder... but I bet it will eb included.
Pretty much any design in the RPG will be made into figures, since Palladium is the one involved in this project form the get go.

and i think everyone keeps forgetting the "Rabbit-technology" VHT-1 Dana unit, it could be sculpted and produced...

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:17 pm

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The VF-1R is a one-second wonder... but I bet it will eb included.

True, but it's likely that one will make the cut because it's Tommy's baby and we all know the Macross Saga is his favorite.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Pretty much any design in the RPG will be made into figures, since Palladium is the one involved in this project form the get go.

That's rather unduly optimistic... Palladium is involved, but Harmony Gold has oversight rights through their license contract with Palladium, and development seems to be being left up to the mini maker. Stuff from the RPG is probably on the proverbial table, but I doubt they'll make minis for anything beyond the most prominent official designs of each Saga, since this is very much exploratory work into uncharted waters and Harmony Gold in particular likes to play it safe with RT. They'll keep it simple.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:and i think everyone keeps forgetting the "Rabbit-technology" VHT-1 Dana unit, it could be sculpted and produced...

Doesn't the Masters Saga already have enough trouble being taken seriously, thanks to the administration's stance on it?

Colonel Wolfe · Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:22 pm

Seto Kaiba"
[quote="Colonel Wolfe wrote:Pretty much any design in the RPG will be made into figures, since Palladium is the one involved in this project form the get go.

That's rather unduly optimistic... Palladium is involved, but Harmony Gold has oversight rights through their license contract with Palladium, and development seems to be being left up to the mini maker. Stuff from the RPG is probably on the proverbial table, but I doubt they'll make minis for anything beyond the most prominent official designs of each Saga, since this is very much exploratory work into uncharted waters and Harmony Gold in particular likes to play it safe with RT. They'll keep it simple.[/quote] if this was true, then the RPG would not contain the Myrmidon, the IMU's or any "background" mecha/power armors.
If Palladium stamps its name on the product, and the items in the Palladium RPG's aren't in the game... it would only work to harm any credibility Palladium has with its microscopic Robotech fan-base. a good percentage of its fans already want a game that.
As Long as the Mini-maker isn't Paulson-games, I think they might be reasonable and professional about the licenses and work to produce a game that has compatible figures with the RPG.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:and i think everyone keeps forgetting the "Rabbit-technology" VHT-1 Dana unit, it could be sculpted and produced...

Doesn't the Masters Saga already have enough trouble being taken seriously, thanks to the administration's stance on it?

I'f were looking for additional designs for a pre-painted plastic minis game akin to DnD minis or Hero Clix, the "Dana" VHT is just as Valid as the hot-pink Maya Alpha.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:19 pm

Colonel Wolfe wrote:if this was true, then the RPG would not contain the Myrmidon, the IMU's or any "background" mecha/power armors.

That, my good fellow, is an apples-and-oranges comparison if ever there was one.

You know as well as I that, with Harmony Gold against them padding out the game with material they make up as they go, that Palladium's writers needed as much of the background esoterica as they could lay hands on so the new edition's source books wouldn't end up being painfully short. Tommy won't let them just make stuff up willy-nilly anymore, the way they did back in 1st Edition, so the easiest way to replace the stuff they weren't allowed to reuse from 1st Edition was to take as many of the OSM background mecha and use them instead. It's not especially hard, since they've got the format figured out (and have ever since 1st Edition)... it's practically fill-in-the-blank, and even the art is mostly just traced from OSM line art, so it's something that can be put together quickly and cheaply to pad out a book for Palladium's established game system. It's very safe, since Palladium and Harmony Gold know full well they'll never please the die-hards, and that most people who buy the books will never actually play the game.

With the miniatures, they're breaking new ground and exploring something they've never done with Robotech before. Each mecha is going to need one (or more) miniatures to be made for it, and they have to come up with the rules for the game too. They don't know that this is a guaranteed sell, so they're naturally going to be cautious and stick to minis for major designs from the series. That way they minimize the tooling costs for the first run, without diminishing the game's appeal by omitting iconic designs, and they can always go back and expand on the line if the game takes off. It's simply being sensibly cautious about a new business venture. I would be surprised if the starter set were anything besides the VF-1s and battle pods, maybe with a few destroids thrown in.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:If Palladium stamps its name on the product, and the items in the Palladium RPG's aren't in the game... it would only work to harm any credibility Palladium has with its microscopic Robotech fan-base. a good percentage of its fans already want a game that.

Palladium's not in the business to lose money either, and even though they're very optimistic about the potential of a minis game, they're not going to take big risks... especially not in the present climate.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I'f were looking for additional designs for a pre-painted plastic minis game akin to DnD minis or Hero Clix, the "Dana" VHT is just as Valid as the hot-pink Maya Alpha.

Dunno 'bout that, the Dana VHT is just a regular VHT with bunny ears on it, while Maia's pretty-in-pink Shadow Fighter is effectively an ace custom different from any other fighter in RTSC.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:11 am

Gryphon wrote:Wow! I'm shocked guys, how could you forget so important a miniature option?!

I mean, no Cyclones in storage mode? Really?! But their so vital to the game, so pivotal!!!

I so agree. :lol:

Colonel Wolfe · Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:16 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:if this was true, then the RPG would not contain the Myrmidon, the IMU's or any "background" mecha/power armors.

That, my good fellow, is an apples-and-oranges comparison if ever there was one.

cheaply to pad out a book for Palladium's established game system.

somehow I think they will need minis to pad out the minis game line as well... especially if it turns out to be decently successful.

With the miniatures, they're breaking new ground and exploring something they've never done with Robotech before. Each mecha is going to need one (or more) miniatures to be made for it, and they have to come up with the rules for the game too.

If they are partnering with an established Minis maker (that isnt Paulson games) the minis compnay should have some Idea of a system that would work for the game, When WizKids was wokring on it, they were doing them to be compatible with Mechwarrior: Dark ages... (unseen mechs anyone?). (funny side note, Tom Bateman didn't know that Wixkids was created by old Fasa guys) So I don't think the system should be an Issue.

They don't know that this is a guaranteed sell, so they're naturally going to be cautious and stick to minis for major designs from the series. That way they minimize the tooling costs for the first run, without diminishing the game's appeal by omitting iconic designs, and they can always go back and expand on the line if the game takes off. It's simply being sensibly cautious about a new business venture. I would be surprised if the starter set were anything besides the VF-1s and battle pods, maybe with a few destroids thrown in.

I think one is confused, and thinks I want all 350 designs from Robotech in the Starter set.... with any Minis game, if they release more and more sets, they will add more and more designs... I'd hate to think that if the game goes into multiple sets, evebntually they will have to do more than print 25 new VF-1s with extreamly minor detail changes...

Palladium's not in the business to lose money either, and even though they're very optimistic about the potential of a minis game, they're not going to take big risks... especially not in the present climate.

and in this current climate, peeing on the legs of the fans and saying its raining is not a good business risk either, so if Kevin keeps pitching all 3 eras to the fans, he better deliver.

Gryphon wrote:I mean, no Cyclones in storage mode? Really?! But their so vital to the game, so pivotal!!!

and the Scott hiding under his broken Alpha as a unit might be needed too...
Rick's Magic bicycle is one of the more central units in the series...

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:07 am

Colonel Wolfe wrote:somehow I think they will need minis to pad out the minis game line as well... especially if it turns out to be decently successful.

True, but that's a BIG "if"... what we're talking about here is a game with very limited, very niche appeal. Palladium is not what you'd call a major player in the game publishing market, the cross-section of the Robotech fandom which plays the RPG is relatively small, and Robotech itself has something of a black mark against it among miniature war-gamers because of their repeated screwing-over of BattleTech/MechWarrior's owners (FASA and, later, Catalyst). While the minis alone might do OK if marketed as a collectable (2-3,000 sets or so), but with the fanbase so dispersed, and Palladium not able to officially market their RT stuff internationally AFAIK, I don't think the game itself will take off. Regardless, I'll likely buy several even if the game doesn't take off. If they're well done, they'll go nicely with my Macross 25th Anniversary 1/250s.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I think one is confused, and thinks I want all 350 designs from Robotech in the Starter set.... with any Minis game, if they release more and more sets, they will add more and more designs... I'd hate to think that if the game goes into multiple sets, eventually they will have to do more than print 25 new VF-1s with extremely minor detail changes...

No, but I just have this eerie premonition that they'd do all the major designs, then look at the minor background stuff left to do and just say "Why bother?". Kind of like how the Masterpiece Collection and Toynami super-poseable merch quickly petered out.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:and in this current climate, peeing on the legs of the fans and saying its raining is not a good business risk either, so if Kevin keeps pitching all 3 eras to the fans, he better deliver.

Quite. But sometimes companies do end up making promises they can't deliver on due to reasons beyond their control... Harmony Gold is especially good at that. (How many years behind the ball is LLA now? Two?)

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:38 am

Seto wrote:Really, there are no main mecha with this problem. The VHT-1 only has, as far as the official material is concerned, one version to rule them all. The minor design variations in the head are cosmetic and SO insignificant that most don't even know they're there, and they'd be extremely difficult to model on a 1/285 scale. The different head designs don't come with a different paintjob either.

Actually Dana's VHT has a red markings on the head and the others get a yellow. They could also artificially give characters new color schemes to for the VHT.

Plus differences in the VHT-1 and VHT-1A1 are in the beam cannon vs 105mm. The -A2/A3 are space modified versions of the -1/A1 standards (though the changes may only be noticeable in vehicle mode). So it looks like there are 4 types of VHT-1 that can be deployed

Seto wrote:See the above about "fiddly little background designs".

By that standard we can toss out a lot of stuff from your list
-TMS: QF-3000, VER-1, SF-3, ES-11, VC-27, EC-33B, F203, SC-27, Comanchero, Sea Sergeant, VC-33, Avenger II, ARMD, Orberth, most of the starships (let's be honest at the scale they are going for those ships are going to be huge)
-TRM: the non-appearing ASC 'bots, the 4 fighters, the shuttlecraft, and the big warships (again size)
-NG: capital ships (size)

If you include the fiddly stuff from one arc, you really have to do them all.

Seto wrote:One omission only, I forgot Marie Angel had a different-colored Logan. The rest, no. There are no "hero color" units in the other two aside from Marie Angel's the way there are in Macross. I counted Maia's VF/A-6ZX from RTSC, since that's got a main character paintjob, but the others all fly/drive the generic version of whatever their issued mecha is. Character colors figure prominently in Macross's designs, and there are a number of very distinctive paint schemes that show up repeatedly, which is why they're included. (Repaints are cheaper than a new model, you see.)

Color isn't the only way they can depict character mecha though. Each character could get a customized "pose" for their miniS and mecha (or for the Mini's game give them custom colors). Plus if the "character" mecha factor in the skills of the main character, the units may have different stats because of it.

Seto wrote:Actually, I believe I did catch the Carpenter fighter under "3x Misc. Background Fighter". I didn't feel like listing them all in excruciating detail related to their appearance, since none of them have actual names. The "Wolfe flashback fighter" was another design that's only in one or two seconds of archival footage (only then as a still), and thus is profoundly unlikely to be included.

My mistake on the Carpenter fighter, but that means you missed the 2nd Sylphid variant that HG has acknowledged exists in the animation (via the RPG since they approved it and want things to be very tight). It also appears you missed the AHR-15 (which I lumped as a Fighter, it's more of an recon unit).

Seto wrote:Deliberately left out, actually... those are also really minor, and I doubt they would be included. Certainly they'd be of very limited utility as they don't carry mecha and combat from that generation is principally over land.

Well if you are leaving in captial ships and shuttles, then these should have been included. Yes they are likely more limited in engagement, but you did include the semi-submersible carriers from TMS as separate entities.

Seto wrote:The Overlord is included under "8x various Invid units", I didn't include stuff like the Mortar Scout, however, as those are a one-panel wonder.

Then you missed something because there are 8 from the show (even I forgot about the Mortar Scout) alone, and the Overlord (which is in the Infopeda) makes 9:
1-Overlord
2-RCB
3-Enforcer/PCU
4-Urban Enforcer/Solider
5-Shock Trooper
6-Trooper
7-Fighter Scout
8-Booster Scout (3rd version in the show, legs are swapped for a booster unit)
9-Scout

More if we include: Mortar Scout, Grappler and other Invid variations from "Invasion" video game (which means more Cyclones possibly to), plus the Inorganics from PttSC.

Seto wrote:Only one version of the Silverback actually appears in Prelude IIRC, the -L version.

Yes and No. While only one model appears in the Prelude story itself, the data file in the graphic novel version (can't be sure about the individual comic) DOES include all 3 versions. They also mention the AHR-15.

In 1/285 scale? You realize an average-sized infantryman is only going to be 6mm tall at that scale, right? Rather unlikely to be included because of the small size, and the fact that this is a game about giant robots. Who gives a flip about the infantry-who-don't-do-anything?

1. Zentreadi at giant size
2. regular sized infantry could be a team affair getting more bang for the buck (granted an Armor mode Cyclone isn't much bigger either)

We do see some infantry action in the later two arcs by human sized individuals, and the giant Zentreadi for the first arc.

Seto wrote:They're not gonna cover every fiddly little background design with no art and no info from any of the three, they'll stick to what's prominent, recognizable, and most importantly, marketable. Some ancillary craft like the Macross Saga's Avenger II, Comanchero, and VEFR-1, Masters Saga's background fighters (except the Shrewfield), and the New Generation's Condor and Conbat might get the axe too, simply for being too minor.

No they aren't likely to. But what one might qualify as fiddly background can vary from person to person, and as I said they may make an effort to balance the saga's numbers equally. What we are better off doing is not deciding what counts and just list it w/as little bias as possible.

Palladium is involved with the project, which means material they used is likely to find its way there also given the tighter matching HG wants to do (they only thing PB has done so far I would not expect is the IMUs).

rtsurfer · Unread post by **rtsurfer** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:33 am

Don't forget Pincer Enforcers and Armored Scouts come in red and blue eyed versions, and there are three RCB colors. :lol:

The manufacturer will probably start out with the mecha they consider representative of TMS, the grunts and main heroes/anti-heroes. Then add more mecha based on sales and demand. They may even market the mecha in the order it shows up or is featured during the tv series, as scenarios or time spans [Macross Island - Battle of Saturns Rings, Mars Base - Return to Earth, Rain of Death - Reconstruction Era; something like that] The catch here is are they going to put out a whole bunch of TMS minis or get the main stuff out, move on to the other sagas, then come back to expand on TMS.

IINM Palladium mentioned the larger spaceships being part of this game. I can't imagine they would be in the same scale, heck they may have to be in two scales; otherwise, the TMS ones will still be huge or the RM/TNG would be tiny. Plus they will probably need their own space combat rules.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:57 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:Actually Dana's VHT has a red markings on the head and the others get a yellow. They could also artificially give characters new color schemes to for the VHT.

Considering how fans scream sacrilege over every little change made in RTSC, I can't see them doing that. Again, there's the question of the tiny scale making small detail markings unfeasible.

ShadowLogan wrote:Plus differences in the VHT-1 and VHT-1A1 are in the beam cannon vs 105mm. The -A2/A3 are space modified versions of the -1/A1 standards (though the changes may only be noticeable in vehicle mode). So it looks like there are 4 types of VHT-1 that can be deployed

The different guns thing is a complete fabrication not actually present in Robotech, you realize.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:See the above about "fiddly little background designs".

By that standard we can toss out a lot of stuff from your list
-TMS: QF-3000, VER-1, SF-3, ES-11, VC-27, EC-33B, F203, SC-27, Comanchero, Sea Sergeant, VC-33, Avenger II, ARMD, Orberth, most of the starships (let's be honest at the scale they are going for those ships are going to be huge)
-TRM: the non-appearing ASC 'bots, the 4 fighters, the shuttlecraft, and the big warships (again size)
-NG: capital ships (size)

*sigh* Nice try, but no. The SF-3A Lancer II, QF-3000E, ES-11D, EC-33B, F203, ARMD, and Oberth all figure prominently into various episodes of the series, unlike the many throwaway fighter and robot designs in the Masters Saga, which often never made it into the show at all, and those that did only made it for a few short seconds of footage. I wouldn't toss an ASC shuttle (the drop shuttle that deploys hovertanks in space), because that likewise figures prominently into the show's plot.

ShadowLogan wrote:No they aren't likely to. But what one might qualify as fiddly background can vary from person to person, and as I said they may make an effort to balance the saga's numbers equally. What we are better off doing is not deciding what counts and just list it w/as little bias as possible.

Hence my common-sense analysis based on prominence and importance to the series itself, not merely whatever stuff the RPG came up with that exists there and nowhere else. I lopped the whole middle out of my post where I addressed each and every point, because I realized I was just saying this same point a dozen times. If they have even an ounce of sense, they're going to focus on the prominent, recognizable designs that matter to the series. That includes some designs that would otherwise be considered minor, like the F203, Lancer, Cat's Eye, and ASC shuttles, because even though they aren't frequently-recurring designs, they feature prominently in the plot at several points.

If we were to assume they were going to target the same number of major minis for each saga, I would expect them to do the following major designs and save the others for expansions.

The Macross Saga
VF-1A (Khaki, possibly multiple)
VF-1A Ben
VF-1J Rick, Max, Miriya
VF-1S Roy
Destroids (Tomahawks and Spartans)
Regular Battle pods
Glaug (Khyron)
Q-Rau (Miriya)?

The Masters Saga
Hovertank (many)
Logan (Marie, Fodder)
AGACs (Fodder)
Red Bioroid
Grunt Bioroid (many)

The New Generation
Blue Alpha (Scott)
Green Alpha (Rand/many)
Red Alpha (Rook)
Beta (probably just one)
Cyclones?
Invid Scout
Invid Fighter Scout
Invid Trooper
Invid Shocktrooper

Colonel Wolfe · Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:17 pm

the the game is about the "Battle of macross island" shouldn't ricks figure only be able to crash?

The different guns thing is a complete fabrication not actually present in Robotech, you realize.

But Present in the Robotech RPG produced by Palaldium books, the same company doing the minis game... :roll:

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:09 am

Colonel Wolfe wrote:the the game is about the "Battle of macross island" shouldn't ricks figure only be able to crash?

Eh, better that than any special rules he might have in the New Gen/RTSC set... I don't even know how they'd go about a rule that forces the player to throw waves of poorly-equipped cannon fodder against an enemy they can't possibly beat.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
The different guns thing is a complete fabrication not actually present in Robotech, you realize.
But Present in the Robotech RPG produced by Palaldium books, the same company doing the minis game...

As any miniatures gamer worth his salt will tell you, one of the most important parts of designing a miniature for a game is to make certain that its in-game capabilities are reasonably obvious at a glance. Ideally, you should be able to look at the mini and know what it is, what faction it belongs to, what its weapons are, etc. without having to consult the opposing player in the middle of the game. Having two (or more) different models of Spartas that are visually identical but have different guns makes for a pretty annoying break from that key concept of easy identification.

rtsurfer · Unread post by **rtsurfer** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:11 am

For a "Battle of Macross Island" scenario, I would expect something like the following:
Roy, Rick, a few Khaki VF-1, and a few of one or two of the Destroid classes (Seto suggested Tomahawks and Spartans)
Vs a bunch of Battlepods and a few of one or maybe both of the missile battlepods. Maybe the scout battlepod or some Tri-Fighters (I think both where in the Macross Is epis).
That would be like 4 or 5 each for the humans and Zents. Not sure how they would deal with modes, the Khakis would probably come in a variety of the three modes, Rick's probably in either Battloid and/or Guardian, and Roy's in either Fighter and/or Battloid.
Some of the sets might have something like Rick's stunt plane as a bonus.

The VHT's aren't upgraded in the tv series, except for the pupal pistal (I think that was the only one), they apparently switch back and forth between firing modes. IINM The space packs are add-ons which appear to be discarded at some point likely when they changed modes.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:22 am

Seto wrote:Considering how fans scream sacrilege over every little change made in RTSC, I can't see them doing that. Again, there's the question of the tiny scale making small detail markings unfeasible.

True, but somethings have to be done for game purposes I would suspect. Could also add something like a "character flag" to the Mini to showcase who the pilot is if it's not a redshirt without making changes to the mecha design/color scheme. How the "flag" is done is open be it: colored base, colored ring, an actual flag with an out-of-scale image of the character in question, or something else.

Seto wrote:The different guns thing is a complete fabrication not actually present in Robotech, you realize.

1. That would be the OSM leaking in IINM (not that I'm happy about that).
2. That is also what the Infopedia is going with. I don't recall anything about weapons selection changing via dialogue, but the "red" VHT-1 does have some dialogue that points to it being different...
Sean in "Southerncross": I've been bounced off my hovertank and the prototype so what am I supposed to find something to ride
Dana shortly before: This Hovertank is reserved for Officer use only...
To be fair, Louie before both:... Beautiful isn't it I really think I out did myself

The question really is what those changes are between the prototype and the standard model (and what role Louie actually played), but the 'red' is established to be different.

Seto wrote:Nice try, but no. The SF-3A Lancer II, QF-3000E, ES-11D, EC-33B, F203, ARMD, and Oberth all figure prominently into various episodes of the series, unlike the many throwaway fighter and robot designs in the Masters Saga, which often never made it into the show at all, and those that did only made it for a few short seconds of footage. I wouldn't toss an ASC shuttle (the drop shuttle that deploys hovertanks in space), because that likewise figures prominently into the show's plot.

Depends on what one considers prominent in the episode. The ARMD/Oberth have less screen time than the various ASC fleet ships and is about on par with the REF ships in NG. Aside from maybe the ES-11D, the rest are background filler really when taken within RT as whole they are easy to forget no matter how connected to the plot they are.

Seto wrote:Hence my common-sense analysis based on prominence and importance to the series itself, not merely whatever stuff the RPG came up with that exists there and nowhere else.

Not really common-sense. Majority of the 2E RPG designs (ignoring the IMU/Invid Experiment Tables) are connected to canon material (appearing in the show or comics) directly with the minority via the OSM (not that I'm happy about that). Some of the unseen ASC designs are in the "Battloid Charge" in the end credits IINM (just not sure which ones off hand), but not the story part of the show. What they may lack is generally more detailed information from the OSM.

Seto wrote:If we were to assume they were going to target the same number of major minis for each saga, I would expect them to do the following major designs and save the others for expansions.

I'd probably go with something different, but it could be padded out depending on how big the initial line is pretty evenly (much more so than yours) if we don't factor in characters.
TMS:
3 VF-1 Models (A/J/S)
1 VF-1S Armored Veritech Fighter (AKA Super or Fast pack)
4 Destroids (no MAC)
1 Regult Battle Pod
1 Glaug Pod
1 Gnerl
1 Female Power Armor
12 Total before characters, Mode Selection gives (9+3+4+1+1+1+1=) 20 Total
Could pad it with: the Armored Battloid, Male Power Armor, VF-1D, 3 Regults variants, Super VF-1J, Glaug+Sled = +12 Total

TRM:
2 VHT (red/yellow)
2 Logans (blue/white)
1 AGAC
2 nt-Battloids (Salamander, GMP)
2 Blue Bioroid (w/ and w/o Sled, though they could make the sled separate)
2 Red Bioroid (w/ and w/o Sled, though they could make the sled separate)
1 Terminator Bioroid (PA size)
11 Total before characters, Mode Selection gives (6+4+3+2+1+2+2 =) 20 Total
Could pad it with: Green Bioroid (it didn't use the sled IIRC), Trimivoid*, Golem GMP 'bot = + 4 OR 8 Total**

NG:
3 Alphas
3 Cyclones (Rook/Scott/Lancer type, I left Rand off since Scott's seems the standard w/other -052 users, only other -38 user is Sue)
2 Invid Scout (Armed & Unarmed)
2 Invid Troopers (Armed & unarmed)
1 RCB (unless each character version has different capabilities)
11 Total before characters, Mode selection gives (9+6+2+2+1=) 20 Total
Could pad it with: Shadow Fighter, Beta, Rand & Sue Cyclone Types, Urban Enforcer, Enforcer, Booster Scout = +13 Total

If they do pad the line and keep the saga's balanced it looks like TRM will be the deciding factor in the size of the padding if they just use what is in the show (and not the newer RPG/Comics). Tossing character versions into the mix can be problematic at this stage, but would also be done toward balancing the sagas (but then which character units do we identify them with as multiple mecha are used).

*Execution of the Trimivoid is in question. Would it be 3 on one base or 3 separate? Factor in Hoversled and it's 2 or 6
**More are available from the show if the "credits" only "Battliod Charge" units are used, but I'm not sure exactly how many at this time. You also have the 2 partials in the show (one is a foot/bottom leg of a mecha, the other I don't think anyone is sure of since we only see 3 cannon barrels) that could be explored.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:36 am

rtsurfer wrote:Vs a bunch of Battlepods and a few of one or maybe both of the missile battlepods. Maybe the scout battlepod or some Tri-Fighters (I think both where in the Macross Is epis).

Fighter Pods are in the sky, we see a Glaug and Recon Pod when they stage on dry land. I'm not 100% about both Artillery pods, but I do recall one of the two for sure.

rtsurfer wrote:The VHT's aren't upgraded in the tv series, except for the pupal pistal (I think that was the only one), they apparently switch back and forth between firing modes. IINM The space packs are add-ons which appear to be discarded at some point likely when they changed modes.

I'm not sure about the upgrade part given "Southern Cross" scene when Sean finds he's assigned VHT isn't his anymore, and he doesn't get to ride in the "prototype" (with red markings). So it isn't an upgrade per say, but it appears to be a different version.

The pupil pistol though sounds like it was integrated with various mecha IIRC Brown correctly (he didn't seem to focus on the VHT being the target, suggesting AGAC and other units could also have received it).

You may be right about the space packs being mode limited. I don't think they really explain why they VHTs lost them, it could have been they exhausted the propellant stores and so ditched them.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:54 pm

rtsurfer wrote:The VHT's aren't upgraded in the tv series, except for the pupal pistal (I think that was the only one), they apparently switch back and forth between firing modes. IINM The space packs are add-ons which appear to be discarded at some point likely when they changed modes.

Other than the addition of the "pupil pistol" system, they're not. The catch being that the supposed upgrade mentioned in the Infopedia, the Spartas' main cannon being upgraded from a solid ammo gun to a beam cannon, doesn't actually fit with the series because the series dialogue establishes that it's neither one. In fact, it's identified as a laser weapon. Just one of the MANY reasons the uRRG staff's contributions to the Infopedia should be scrapped.

ShadowLogan wrote:True, but somethings have to be done for game purposes I would suspect.

Not really. I think you underestimate the power of the dark side the Robotech creative staff and the general fanbase's antipathy for the Masters Saga. I wouldn't expect them to bother with character variants unless there was a distinctive design associated with it. That's not really something that we get in the latter two sagas, it only made something of a comeback in the heavily Macross-ized MOSPEADA setting used for Shadow Chronicles.

ShadowLogan wrote:1. That would be the OSM leaking in IINM (not that I'm happy about that).

No, it's not. In the original Southern Cross, the ATAC-01-SCA Spartas is armed with a 220mm laser cannon, a 36mm rotary laser cannon, and a 28mm laser rifle. Its armament did not change in the series. (Ref. The Anime magazine, 7/1984 issue, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross feature article.)

The dialogue of the Robotech version also identifies the Spartas' main cannon as a laser weapon (Ref. Robotech Ep44 "The Trap"). The bit about the Spartas' gun being a smoothbore cannon later upgraded to a beam cannon is a total arse-pull by uRRG writers working on the Infopedia, and has no connection to the show or the OSM.

(Tracking down the few existing publications to cover Southern Cross turned out to be worth the effort after all, I'm now able to claim a reasonable level of completeness in my collection of OSM material for all three original shows that got adapted for Robotech.)

ShadowLogan wrote:Depends on what one considers prominent in the episode. The ARMD/Oberth have less screen time than the various ASC fleet ships and is about on par with the REF ships in NG. Aside from maybe the ES-11D, the rest are background filler really when taken within RT as whole they are easy to forget no matter how connected to the plot they are.

Again, you're rather distorting things. The ARMD and Oberth-class both have a number of appearances both at the beginning of the Macross Saga and at its climax, with the former being particularly prominent in a major scene wherein it launches (hey) the SF-3A's at the Zentradi ships, scoring the first enemy ship kills of the war and cluing the Zentradi in to the fact that they possess reflex weapons. The EC-33B and ES-11D are both featured prominently in entire episodes, as the mobile command post for rescuing Minmei from Khyron and the center of "Blind Game" and the starting point for a big part of the saga's plot (face-to-face contact between humans and Zentradi). The F203 figures prominently in the whole flashback to Roy's past AND the "From the Stars" canon comic (no one panel wonder here).

EDIT: Listed the wrong issue number for the The Anime magazine issue... accidentally listed the one that talks about why Southern Cross was canceled, and what was originally planned for it.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:26 am

Seto wrote:No, it's not. In the original Southern Cross, the ATAC-01-SCA Spartas is armed with a 220mm laser cannon, a 36mm rotary laser cannon, and a 28mm laser rifle. Its armament did not change in the series. (Ref. The Anime magazine, 7/1984 issue, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross feature article.)

The dialogue of the Robotech version also identifies the Spartas' main cannon as a laser weapon (Ref. Robotech Ep44 "The Trap"). The bit about the Spartas' gun being a smoothbore cannon later upgraded to a beam cannon is a total arse-pull by uRRG writers working on the Infopedia, and has no connection to the show or the OSM.

It's been awhile since I've seen the OSM, but the Projectile to Beam Cannon thing has to have come from somewhere. IINM the Beam cannon dialogue is only used to reference Dana's red, not the common yellow.

Both RT/SDC:SC identify the "red" VHT in the scene previously mentioned to be different from the standard version as it is reserved for officers. If the Red and Yellow are identical, why have the red reserved for officers? So we have rationale for 2 VHT types in the show, 4 with the "space mod" (done like the GBP-1S in TMS?).

Seto wrote:Again, you're rather distorting things...

No I'm not.

While they might play a role in individual episodes, in the overall Robotech story they are filler. Roy's F203 is about as memorable as Wolfe's flashback fighter, or the F110 Falcon in TRM. The EC-33B is less memorable than the shuttle used in "Volunteers". The ARMD/Oberth/SF-3A are memorable in the fact their primitive weapons and easy to break through lines according to the Zentreadi in Ep1.

Seto wrote:scoring the first enemy ship kills of the war and cluing the Zentradi in to the fact that they possess reflex weapons.

No, the first technical kills are from the SDF-1 maingun (a Reflex Weapon) fired before the ARMD/Oberth engagement. Breetai and Exedore don't even seem to consider Reflex Weapons in human hands until they see a reconstructed SDF-1 on Macross Island (and by this point they had engaged the ARMD/Oberth fleet and Breetai gave the order to "blast them to bits" w/regard to two cruisers, and found their weapons to be primative).

Colonel Wolfe · Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:50 pm

re-watching the first few episodes... the base name is wrong it should be called the "Fleeing from Macross Island" since they really didn't defend it all to well...

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:02 pm

Or is it "Fleeing with Macross Island"?

rtsurfer · Unread post by **rtsurfer** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:47 pm

Jefffar wrote:Or is it "Fleeing with Macross Island"?

but so true.

From uRRG's additional design notes for the Hovertank

WHY WE DID WHAT WE DID:

Though the RPG gives the main gun as an "ion cannon", the fire arcs like a projectile in the footage, reflecting that most (if not all) of the weapons in the original Southern Cross were projectile-based. Because of this, we have changed the main gun on the basic Hovertank to a 120mm smoothbore. However, Dana and Louie refer to it as a "laser cannon" in episode #44 ("The Trap"); hence, we supposed the existence of a beam gun variant of the tank. An article in the June? 1984 issue of The Anime indicates that the Spartas has a 220mm laser cannon, a 3x36mm laser gun and a 28mm sniper laser rifle.

For the uRRG they made it a 105mm smoothbore then a 220mm ion cannon.

When they did the rt.com Spartas entry

A later variant developed just in time for the Second Robotech War was the VHT-1A1, which differed from the earlier model in that it replaced the heavy cannon with a large beam cannon. Also, late in the Second Robotech War, many Hovertanks were refitted with armored closed cockpits and with rocket pods for use in space against the Robotech Masters' fleet. These versions became known as the VHT-1A2 (refitted -1) and VHT-1A3 (refitted -1A1).

For the rt.com entry they kept the 105mm but made the upgrade simply a large beam cannon.

IINM there is no indication of an upgrade, besides the space add-ons and pupil pistal (which I believe was also upgraded on other mecha as mentioned by someone else), except possibly Dana teasing Sean over getting a piece of junk instead of the new hovertank. The red VHT, as well as the yellow VHTs, fires the same spiraling beam after Dana calls it a laser as it did in the earlier episodes, before she gets the new hovertank. uRRG's "projectiles" in those earlier episodes also exhibit the same spiraling beam characteristics except that they bend/arc. Beams sometimes bend/arc in anime, including Robotech, and the Hovertank's main cannon fires a variety of beams in different ways thoughout Robotech.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:35 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:It's been awhile since I've seen the OSM, but the Projectile to Beam Cannon thing has to have come from somewhere. IINM the Beam cannon dialogue is only used to reference Dana's red, not the common yellow.

Unless we submit that "up the arse of one of the uRRG's contributors" is a source, then no... it didn't come from anywhere, as it's not in the original show, animation materials for same, or the Robotech version.

ShadowLogan wrote:Both RT/SDC:SC identify the "red" VHT in the scene previously mentioned to be different from the standard version as it is reserved for officers. If the Red and Yellow are identical, why have the red reserved for officers?

Well... my answer rather depends on whether you're looking for an official answer to that or not. In the original, it was a means to mark squad leaders out among their troops for chain-of-command purposes and did not contain any differences beyond the minor cosmetic cues associated with that status. The same appears to be the case for Robotech's one model of hover tank, though since its stats have no connection to the animation that's not entirely reliable.

ShadowLogan wrote:While they might play a role in individual episodes, in the overall Robotech story they are filler.

But they're doing this on a saga-specific basis, which means their significance is measured against the sum total of the one saga the design comes from, not Robotech as a whole. The "Wolfe flashback fighter" is insignificant by any system of measure, as it appears for about two seconds a still shot and is not piloted by any main or supporting cast member, while a F203 is prominently featured in Roy's backstory, flown by the man himself. Hence the greater significance. The same type of methodology can be applied to the others as well... like the EC-33 being relatively significant because of its connections to an entire episode, Lisa, and Minmei, or the Shrewfield by dint of it being bloody everywhere even though nobody of any import flies one.

Jefffar wrote:Or is it "Fleeing with Macross Island"?

Quite.

rtsurfer wrote:From uRRG's additional design notes for the Hovertank

Which serves to illustrate only that the uRRG's "researchers" were rather lax on the whole fact-checking front... an issue I know persists through most of what they produced, though it was not necessarily a priority for their original intent, to put together a companion reference for their own fan-fiction creations. As a point of fact, the only projectile weaponry to be had in the original Southern Cross is missile launchers. Pretty much everything else, with the possible exception of a unidentified Luger P-08-like pistol Louis is shown polishing, is some description of laser.

All the same, the sticky point (from a minis perspective) is not that there was an invisible alleged upgrade that the show's totally mute on, but that the supposed upgrade is no different visually from the regular version. One of the key points of miniature war-game playability is easy visual recognition of units and unit capabilities.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:32 am

rtsurfer wrote:The red VHT, as well as the yellow VHTs, fires the same spiraling beam after Dana calls it a laser as it did in the earlier episodes, before she gets the new hovertank. uRRG's "projectiles" in those earlier episodes also exhibit the same spiraling beam characteristics except that they bend/arc. Beams sometimes bend/arc in anime, including Robotech, and the Hovertank's main cannon fires a variety of beams in different ways thoughout Robotech.

IIRC from the OSM perspective the red prototype (in RT) is not Dana's craft at that point but something she has to earn (I forget if it's this episode or a later one when it happens), granted she still has the red scheme.

One way to get the curving beam cannons of the show is that they fire an actual projectile that contains a single use beam weapon instead of the various type or real world warheads. If they only ever carry the beam warheads it could be seen as a beam weapon.

Seto wrote:Unless we submit that "up the arse of one of the uRRG's contributors" is a source, then no... it didn't come from anywhere, as it's not in the original show, animation materials for same, or the Robotech version.

The uRRG claims trajectories point to a projectile weapon. While they don't list clear specific examples, the one that comes readily to mind is when Dana fires into the BMI network shaft in "Danger Zone", the shot goes down the shaft in a spiral (not bouncing off the walls).

Seto wrote:Well... my answer rather depends on whether you're looking for an official answer to that or not. In the original, it was a means to mark squad leaders out among their troops for chain-of-command purposes and did not contain any differences beyond the minor cosmetic cues associated with that status. The same appears to be the case for Robotech's one model of hover tank, though since its stats have no connection to the animation that's not entirely reliable.

I get that it was supposed to mark squad leaders (both VF-1 and Alpha get officer specific models so why not the TRM mecha for continuity between sagas?), but the dialogue does point to the red and yellow being different in some undefined manner or Sean's dialogue wouldn't look like it does.

"Southern Cross"
Sean: Hey a brand new hovertank alright
Bowie: Uh oh
Louie: Come on he found it.. (at the tank's side) Beautiful isn't it I really think I out did myself
Sean: Man this baby was built with me in mind what a sweetheart nobody else in the 15th division can handle this darling
Dana: Well I'm afraid someone else is going to have to try Private Philips
Sean: Nope
Dana: This Hovertank is reserved for Officer use only get it now watch my lips while I repeat this Private to make sure you understand you'll never fly this craft
Sean: There ain't no justice in this world that's the truth this tank and me would have been history on wheels course there's still a chance for you and me little darling
Dana: Philips the only history well be making is when I bust you out of the core for insubordination now move it
Sean: Okay okay but give me a tank like that and who knows what will happen
Dana: Give up hotshot
Sean: I've been bounced off my hovertank and the prototype (goes on to ask what he's supposed to use)

The tank is identified as new (not a clear indication it's different I'll admit), it's also described as a prototype and reserved for officer use. Sean's assessment of the tank can be seen above (built with him in mind, no one else can handle it, would have made history) that would not jive if it was just a yellow with a new paint job. Something about the tank is different than the usual or Sean wouldn't make such comments about it's capabilities with him at the controls.

Seto wrote:But they're doing this on a saga-specific basis, which means their significance is measured against the sum total of the one saga the design comes from, not Robotech as a whole...

In which case the F203 and EC-33 are still not all that memorable, just because a main character used it doesn't mean it becomes memorable. Does that mean we should include the vehicle Lisa drove at Mars Base to, or the jeeps the VF-1 pilots use (Roy & co vs Rick & co "race" in toward the door that can only fit one of them), Rick's Bicycle (magic or not), Minmei's Plane/cars, or the ASC Hovercycle?

And as I said earlier I think they should avoid doing this on a saga-specific basis (I can see a set(s) geared this way, but marketed all together and to avoid a given saga being a drag to sales have multi-generation in the packs).

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:51 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:IIRC from the OSM perspective the red prototype (in RT) is not Dana's craft at that point but something she has to earn (I forget if it's this episode or a later one when it happens), granted she still has the red scheme.

Well, yes and no...

Jeanne Fránçaix was technically still within her authority to claim that particular Spartas as her own because, at that time, she was the acting CO of 15th Squad. She had to earn it because she wasn't a commissioned officer, and that unit was a commissioned officer type. Jeanne was originally the 15th's senior sergeant, and command fell to her after her philanderer commander (1st Lt. Charles de Etouard) got busted down to Private. That tank didn't become hers full-time until she was granted a commission to the rank of 2nd Lieutenant and became the 15th's new permanent CO.

ShadowLogan wrote:The uRRG claims trajectories point to a projectile weapon. While they don't list clear specific examples, the one that comes readily to mind is when Dana fires into the BMI network shaft in "Danger Zone", the shot goes down the shaft in a spiral (not bouncing off the walls).

The uRRG claims a lot of things that don't make sense, that's one. "Bendy beams" are an established technology in both of the wildly successful shows that Southern Cross was trying to copy, Super Dimension Fortress Macross and that show's spiritual father Mobile Suit Gundam. The specific instance you mentioned is readily attributable to the Spartas being equipped with something approximating a rifle grenade specifically for that purpose. The idea that the Spartas has a solid ammo gun falls apart on the obvious problem that there's nowhere in the mecha to put a shot locker for ammo, and it lacks any kind of feed system to supply the gun with shells.

ShadowLogan wrote:I get that it was supposed to mark squad leaders (both VF-1 and Alpha get officer specific models so why not the TRM mecha for continuity between sagas?), but the dialogue does point to the red and yellow being different in some undefined manner or Sean's dialogue wouldn't look like it does.

Prototype paintjob? At no point does Jeanne/Dana's Spartas ever exhibit any capabilities not also present on the standard mook model. Sometimes, even the dialogue can be fallable. (e.g. the "Shrewfield Veritech")

ShadowLogan wrote:Something about the tank is different than the usual or Sean wouldn't make such comments about it's capabilities with him at the controls.

In the conspicuous absence of any demonstrated capability not also present on the "yellow" Spartas, we could interpret it one of two ways... either the "command" type is a new introduction (unlikely), or this is a dialogue error. I can't see UEDF top brass issuing a valuable prototype to a unit that, with no exaggeration, is the Southern Cross Army's "Delta House" at that point in the story.

ShadowLogan wrote:In which case the F203 and EC-33 are still not all that memorable, just because a main character used it doesn't mean it becomes memorable.

Considering the amount of near-hagiography the fans and licensees have made of characters like Roy, are you sure you're going to stand by that remark?

Colonel Wolfe · Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:27 am

Seto Kaiba wrote: even the dialogue can be fallable. (e.g. the "Shrewfield Veritech")

a more appropriate dialog failure would be the narrator's claims of "hand fuls of people" and "total destruction" when its clearly shown in later episodes of the show that the Zents missed entire cities and didn't kill that many people, compared to the OSM.

And honestly, how much difference in performance is there between the VF-1's?
additional head lasers? that's not that big of a difference. and its barely notable on the scale of minis, so I'm thinking we could reduce the number of VF-1s to 3, Basic VF-1, Armored VF-1, "Super" VF-1... any mini's guy would know, that minor details like how many spikes are on the head of a robot isn't the best way to differentiate between models, you need more clear examples of differences, like different armors, guns or weapons... Saying my one of my Skaven has a +4 armor save because he had 1 extra spike on his head is really to minute of a detail to be seen as a major difference... just like the Head lasers on the VF-1 isn't big enough to warrant 1000 different models.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:01 am

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote: even the dialogue can be fallable. (e.g. the "Shrewfield Veritech")
a more appropriate dialog failure would be the narrator's claims of "hand fuls of people" and "total destruction" when its clearly shown in later episodes of the show that the Zents missed entire cities and didn't kill that many people, compared to the OSM.

Nah, that's clearly not a dialogue error because it's a direct lift from the original show, and is repeatedly corroborated in the series across multiple sagas with plenty of accompanying visual and dialogue evidence with no contradiction (official setting material for the RT version establishes that some cities were rebuilt and named after destroyed cities). The dialogue errors wherein the "Shrewfield" fighter is called a veritech lack substantiation in the visuals or corroborative evidence in the OSM's material or official RT setting material. See the difference? That's neither here nor there though, so if we're going to argue this one let's do it by PM or something.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:And honestly, how much difference in performance is there between the VF-1's?

If they opt to go with the Battlecry stats variances, there's a big one. If they follow the RPG, there's still a fairly big one between the VF-1R and the others. If they follow official RT spec, there's not much of one, but still a difference in terms of firepower. If they follow OSM spec, there's about a 10% difference in engine output between tuned and non-tuned versions and of course the variances in firepower from having anywhere from 1-4 laser cannons. That's a difference of up to 300% between variants. (In WH40K terms, the difference between a Dark Eldar splinter rifle and a splinter cannon.)

Colonel Wolfe wrote:any mini's guy would know, that minor details like how many spikes are on the head of a robot isn't the best way to differentiate between models, you need more clear examples of differences, like different armors, guns or weapons...

Or a completely different-looking head, like every VF-1 variant gets... a fairly large, visible design difference. The issue is that the Spartas doesn't really get that, since the only difference there is variation in the number slightly square bits that stick out just past the surface. You'd have a hard time confusing this for this, this, or this. Likewise, it would be even harder to mix up the variants of Alpha, since each one of those isn't just given a different head, each variant only comes in one specific color (so confusion is only even potentially possible if you're red-green colorblind).

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Saying my one of my Skaven has a +4 armor save because he had 1 extra spike on his head is really to minute of a detail to be seen as a major difference... just like the Head lasers on the VF-1 isn't big enough to warrant 1000 different models.

Wouldn't have picked you for a Skaven player in a million years. The different shapes and configurations of the VF-1 head marking out different variants is analogous to the way that squad leaders in many 40K ranges have distinctive features on them that mark them out as different without being a completely different model (e.g. the Space Marine sergeant, per the default Codex paintjob, have a red helm, or Kabalite warrior sybarite having a back banner).

Colonel Wolfe · Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:36 am

The images above prove my point that the head detail is so minor of changes that the minis can't reflect it at this scale. if said minis were the size of Jet-fire, such changes might be notable for game use, but on a 4 cm unit who head is a few millimeters across, its not gonna be noticeable enough in a minis game. if the Head detail on the VF-1 warrants a different mini, then the Head Differences between Officer and Grunts for the VHT-1 needs separate models as its an equally minor change, with a equally tiny effect on game play (comparing 1-4 lasers on the head, a completely tertiary weapon system after missiles and nose lasers/gu-11 is like the difference between a Skaven with a Long knife and a Skaven with a Short-sword)
its not like the physical differences between the Vf-1 and VF-x-4 or VHT-1 and VHT-2.
Even the Alpha's color differences don't translate into much of a difference in capabilities. a minor speed bound to the red one, isn't enough to necessitate a major difference in stats, for what is the same identical model, minus color.The Differences come with the Super and Shadow Alphas or the upgraded Super Beta.
the Cyclones are virtually identical except for fore-arm weapons, which would be the main way to know that blow-superior/lancer model /-40's model has the upgraded chest missiles system.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:57 am

Seto wrote:The specific instance you mentioned is readily attributable to the Spartas being equipped with something approximating a rifle grenade specifically for that purpose. The idea that the Spartas has a solid ammo gun falls apart on the obvious problem that there's nowhere in the mecha to put a shot locker for ammo, and it lacks any kind of feed system to supply the gun with shells.

Actually the novels take is that it's a heavy missile, but putting a projectile (missile or grenade) inside the beam cannon barrel (does a laser even have a traditional barrel to mount something inside?) would limit it's usefulness in that config. as the projectile would have to be the first shot fired. Nor did anyone make any statements about the VHT operating in a different/special config.

As for storage of regular ammo, at the size listed yes I can see that. But if:
-the round's stated size is treated as "equivalent" instead of the actual size. That would allow the round to shrink and make it easier on ammo storage.
-if the round is electromagnetically propelled instead of chemically the overall length could shrink, simplifying volume needed
-some combination of the above

Seto wrote:Prototype paintjob? At no point does Jeanne/Dana's Spartas ever exhibit any capabilities not also present on the standard mook model. Sometimes, even the dialogue can be fallable. (e.g. the "Shrewfield Veritech")

Does not mean that Dana was using the full capabilities of the VHT. Sean was (presumably) a more experienced VHT pilot than her as he was the former CO of the unit for some period of time as she was a recent grad. of the academy (in "False Start his rank jumps around between Captain and Lt before his demotion).

Nor does it consider the Red acting to support the yellows so they function better. The only real users of the VHT we see are the 15th. We meet the 14th (who's officer is using a yellow) as they leave in "Metal Fire" and we see another unit briefly a few times later (in non-combat or acting as infantry with their mecha parked nearby).

Seto wrote:Considering the amount of near-hagiography the fans and licensees have made of characters like Roy, are you sure you're going to stand by that remark?

Yes I am. Roy is the Bobba-Fett of Macross Saga.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:23 pm

Id rather see the canceled spaceship book for the RPG before I see another "promise of power" or Rifts CCG. But who knows? Perhaps this one will be successful. Hopefully it draws a new crowd to Palladium and introduces them to the rest of Palladium's product. I will not be getting into this game though.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:41 pm

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The images above prove my point that the head detail is so minor of changes that the minis can't reflect it at this scale. if said minis were the size of Jet-fire, such changes might be notable for game use, but on a 4 cm unit who head is a few millimeters across, its not gonna be noticeable enough in a minis game.

Not wanting to reply without doing your position justice, I sat down and worked out the dimensions of the various mecha we're talking about in the proposed miniature game's 1:285 scale. I have to say that I disagree, as my measurements for the VF-1 indicate that the miniature would be a hair over 1¾ inches tall w/o a base. That's the same height as WH40K's 5th Edition Grey Knights Terminators, a size at which it's readily possible to sculpt a head with immediately visible traits a player can use to tell models apart. The problem is that the other mecha of Robotech, like the Spartas, are a great deal smaller than the VF-1's nearly 13m tall battloid form. The Spartas is only 6.2m tall, making the 1:285 scale mini just over ¾ of an inch tall, slightly larger than a single Tyranid Ripper. At that size it's going to be nearly impossible to sculpt those more subtle differences in head design from Southern Cross, and telling them apart at a glance is going to be next to impossible.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Even the Alpha's color differences don't translate into much of a difference in capabilities. a minor speed bound to the red one, isn't enough to necessitate a major difference in stats, for what is the same identical model, minus color.

This much is true, though the Red (Zeta) Alpha's engines have a similarly large performance boost to that found on the -S type VF-1, and the Black (Shadow) version has a stealth system and different weapons. Even though they too will be on the small side, they'll be much easier to tell apart because each variant is painted head-to-toe in a different color, making otherwise difficult-to-discern head differences less important.

ShadowLogan wrote:Actually the novels take is that it's a heavy missile, but putting a projectile (missile or grenade) inside the beam cannon barrel (does a laser even have a traditional barrel to mount something inside?) would limit it's usefulness in that config. as the projectile would have to be the first shot fired.

The novels are Robotech in name only, so we can safely ignore that... but I don't see the rest of that being an issue, considering the circumstances of the episode.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for storage of regular ammo, at the size listed yes I can see that. But if:
-the round's stated size is treated as "equivalent" instead of the actual size. That would allow the round to shrink and make it easier on ammo storage.
-if the round is electromagnetically propelled instead of chemically the overall length could shrink, simplifying volume needed
-some combination of the above

That first bit doesn't make sense, the second is easy to rule out because railguns didn't become a mecha-scale thing until 2043-2044 in canon (VM-9, VR-057, etc.), and a combination of the two doesn't improve matters. Either way, there's not room for a shot locker at any caliber comparable to the main mount's bore in there, and no room for a feed system either.

ShadowLogan wrote:Does not mean that Dana was using the full capabilities of the VHT. Sean was (presumably) a more experienced VHT pilot than her as he was the former CO of the unit for some period of time as she was a recent grad. of the academy (in "False Start his rank jumps around between Captain and Lt before his demotion).

So, your answer is that the 15th's XO is inept? And people say that I'M the one who's mean to the Masters Saga. Dana's established to be a very skilled pilot throughout the saga, so I don't think that's likely. I think this is just a dialogue slip.

ShadowLogan wrote:We meet the 14th (who's officer is using a yellow) as they leave in "Metal Fire" and we see another unit briefly a few times later (in non-combat or acting as infantry with their mecha parked nearby).

It's been a while since I watched the RT version, is that guy actually an officer or is his rank not given? If he's a senior NCO, then he's driving a yellow for a reason.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes I am. Roy is the Bobba-Fett of Macross Saga.

Nah, Roy demonstrates fairly often that he deserves the reputation he has as a veteran pilot in the series itself, never mind the canon comics. Boba Fett is practically window-dressing except for his death in Star Wars, and was only made an incredibly awesome bounty hunter in expanded universe material. (Or so I am reliably assured by die-hard SW fans, I am not terribly familiar with the Star Wars EU, due to my limited exposure to it.)

The current treatment of Roy is nothing next to the old comics making him a combination of Top Gun's Maverick, John Rambo, and Crocodile Dundee though. Roy's one of the most beloved characters in the series, and instantly associated with the VF-1S. The same goes for Rick and the VF-1J.

Colonel Wolfe · Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:04 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:The images above prove my point that the head detail is so minor of changes that the minis can't reflect it at this scale. if said minis were the size of Jet-fire, such changes might be notable for game use, but on a 4 cm unit who head is a few millimeters across, its not gonna be noticeable enough in a minis game.

Not wanting to reply without doing your position justice, I sat down and worked out the dimensions of the various mecha we're talking about in the proposed miniature game's 1:285 scale. I have to say that I disagree, as my measurements for the VF-1 indicate that the miniature would be a hair over 1¾ inches tall w/o a base. That's the same height as WH40K's 5th Edition Grey Knights Terminators, a size at which it's readily possible to sculpt a head with immediately visible traits a player can use to tell models apart. The problem is that the other mecha of Robotech, like the Spartas, are a great deal smaller than the VF-1's nearly 13m tall battloid form. The Spartas is only 6.2m tall, making the 1:285 scale mini just over ¾ of an inch tall, slightly larger than a single Tyranid Ripper. At that size it's going to be nearly impossible to sculpt those more subtle differences in head design from Southern Cross, and telling them apart at a glance is going to be next to impossible.

honestly, The Size of the head is going to be so minute, and when cast in plastic, not worth the effort to make 1 for each model of VF-1, when the Game stats in the RPG show such a minor difference in capability (and in the show no real difference). in the RPG the "S" models 4 Lasers takes the Damage form an Average of 5 per shot with the "A" to 20 with the "S". its not even a main weapon system, and that minor of a difference in Damage is silly, because if were gonna sculpt 4 different models because of how much damage the head adds, then we need to add about 124 different variations for the different missile out-loads the VF-1 can mount. Maling the game require over 240,000 models for the Macross era alone, and unless they are teaming up with games workshop, its silly to put that much effort into a game thats gonan sell 5 copies, just to try to milk the alleged Macross fan base like a Dairy cow.

12.7m /285 = 4.3 cm = 1.69 inches, not exactly a huge mecha, considering the head on the unit ie less than 1/10th the total height... making the head about 1/16th of an inch 4.3mm, nothing really to mount much details on. and no need to keep karpin on the Spartas, I'm not saying make mutiple models of it, make 1 VF-1, 1 VHT, 1 Alpha.... this game is for a extreamly tiny niche market of Fans and Harmony gold needs to make sure not to over extend them selves with hundreds of models for the vf-1 to try can capture every conceivable version of the unit... as its just not popular enough to warrant that. its not like this is starwars and they actually have a fanbase who will buy the game.

This much is true, though the Red (Zeta) Alpha's engines have a similarly large performance boost to that found on the -S type VF-1, and the Black (Shadow) version has a stealth system and different weapons. Even though they too will be on the small side, they'll be much easier to tell apart because each variant is painted head-to-toe in a different color, making otherwise difficult-to-discern head differences less important

this all is under the assumption that they are going to be pre-painted units. if not, then the models need more physical detail changes since they will be painted what ever colur the players use.
Also, I can't find in the RPG or on Robotech.com where the VF-1s has any supposed "Performance boost" and on The Official webpage (Robotech.com), its top speeds are the same as the "A" model... so I think one confuses the Mecha in Robotech (a sucessful American show) with something from Macross (A japanesse show), its a common misconception that they are somehow the same, one easily forgiven thou.

rtsurfer · Unread post by **rtsurfer** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:35 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if they try to pass one VHT mini off as both the Red and Yellow versions, maybe cheating by making the markings orange lol, or releasing a single Alpha mini in Blue, Green and Red colors. I think at their size the RM/TNG minis could still have an incredible degree of detail, unfortunately some details will be too small to really be worth the effort so they will likely fudge them in the production process. The VF-1 Battloids will be slightly larger so they may put more effort into representing the lens and head cannon(s) on each version, although they could use a less detailed head with paint to suggest the lens and cannon differences. I almost expect the less visable heads on the Fighter and Guardian mode VF-1 minis to have details suggested with paint instead of sculpt/mold-ing.

When I see Skull One or Rick's VF-1J, I think of Rick. I associate Roy with Skull One, young Rick with the VF-1J and older Rick also with Skull One. My Skull One is piloted by Rick

If performance is an issue based on the pilot and/or the particular version of a mecha then the game should provide either cards or bases to distinguish the differences.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:14 pm

Colonel Wolfe wrote:honestly, The Size of the head is going to be so minute, and when cast in plastic, not worth the effort to make 1 for each model of VF-1, when the Game stats in the RPG show such a minor difference in capability (and in the show no real difference).

Dunno 'bout that, the measurements I took indicate a body sized similarly to the fairly large Terminator miniatures made for Games Workshop's Warhammer 40,000 game. That, as Citadel's sculptors have aptly demonstrated, is plenty large enough for a detailed head. Remember, they're not just trying to model stuff for the game here, they're going to want to give the miniatures appeal to attract Robotech fans to the game, and the VF-1 is easily the most recognizable and beloved in Robotech's stable of mechanical designs. That makes good sense... or rather, good dollars and cents.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:12.7m /285 = 4.3 cm = 1.69 inches, not exactly a huge mecha, considering the head on the unit ie less than 1/10th the total height... making the head about 1/16th of an inch 4.3mm, nothing really to mount much details on.

Your numbers are off by a little, it's 12.68m/285 = 4.449cm = 1.752 inches. Also not huge, but easily the size of a Space Marine termie from the Grey Knights 5th Ed. range in WH40K, and thus plenty large enough to get a decent head sculpt in that scale.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:and no need to keep karpin on the Spartas, I'm not saying make mutiple models of it, make 1 VF-1, 1 VHT, 1 Alpha.... this game is for a extreamly tiny niche market of Fans and Harmony gold needs to make sure not to over extend them selves with hundreds of models for the vf-1 to try can capture every conceivable version of the unit... as its just not popular enough to warrant that.

It's not my desire to harp on the difficulties in casting the Spartas in particular, but as the smallest of Robotech's main mecha, it is the one that's going to underline the difficulties of that particular scale the best. At 6.2m = 2.175cm = 0.856 inches, the much more subtle indications of rank and status are going to be that much harder to sculpt, which increases the likelihood of the creators throwing up their hands and saying "we'll just make one". I really wish they'd go with a somewhat larger scale, for exactly that reason. Even 1:250 would be an improvement. About 1:175 would be ideal, as that'd give us Spartas tanks about the size of WH40K space marines, half-inch cyclones, etc. 1:285 is really going to screw the smaller mecha of the later sagas.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:this all is under the assumption that they are going to be pre-painted units. if not, then the models need more physical detail changes since they will be painted what ever colur the players use.

True enough, but at 1:285 scale, it's likely that they'll go with pre-painted miniatures because something that small is very difficult to paint well even for an experienced painter of miniatures.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:so I think one confuses the Mecha in Robotech (a sucessful American show) with something from Macross (A japanesse show), its a common misconception that they are somehow the same, one easily forgiven thou.

Delightfully snarky, but let us remember that Tommy (he who calleth the shots) has a good deal of "enthusiasm" (insert a suitably graphic sound effect here) for Macross, and lets the OSM dictate a fairly large amount of what's what in the Robotech setting. The VF-1S's greater engine power is not actually listed as a greater top speed either in the OSM's VF-1 data, merely as greater acceleration, which is also how they represented it in Battlecry, more or less.

Colonel Wolfe · Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:25 pm

Actually, the cyclone is the Smallest of the main units used throught the series, and was kinda the main focus of the Invid era... it will be much harder to sculpt at 2m/285= ~7mm = 1/4 inch.
By comparison, the Spartas is a monster...
Speaking of the Monster....

height= 22.5m =7.8 cm = 3 inches
width= 24m = 8.4cm = 3.3 inches
depth= 22.1/41.1(with cannons) =7.75 cm/14.42 cm = 3 inches/5.6 inches

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:51 pm

I'll point out that the heads of WH40K models are sculpted disproportionately large in order to provide additional detail work.

Still, my army, having some of the smallest standard troop models on the table (around 3/4 inch), does pretty well for detail, so it is plausible. Here's some samples:

http://home.wowway.com/~tinweasel/gw_ta ... _front.jpg
http://www.electricocean.com/gtpics/022 ... ielsen.jpg
http://store.miniwargaming.com/images/D ... -b0k5c.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_A8bZUPrO8dk/S ... oldbit.jpg
http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics1 ... 2d6fb9.jpg

As for the cyclones? Well probably something like this:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics1 ... 4b6c71.jpg

Do you want the minies painted?