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djlowballer wrote:Wait, the orbital powers are keeping Rifts Earth contained? I always thought the weapons in orbit were the ones left over from the golden age which are totally autonomous.

They are trying to keep earth contained. Page 61 of Mutants in Orbit has a section titled "The Containment of Earth".

Icefalcon wrote:In Rifts, most vehicles are equipped with radar. It is no matter to shoot a missile at a plane when it is guided by radar. Not to mention, you can fire before the plane even flies over your position.

Which can be jammed, decoyed, shot down in return, dodged, etc. Also for firing before the plane passes over, you still have to estimate how far in advance to fire the missile. Too soon and it runs out of fuel before the plane enters range, too late and it passes out of range.

Just because it is an easy lock on, doesn't mean you still have a great chance to hit or would necessarily even have the range to hit it.

flatline wrote:

djlowballer wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

djlowballer wrote:Can somebody give me a brief refresher on the Orbital platforms that shoot suborbital aircraft? My Mutants in Orbit book is halfway around the world but I don't remember the ceiling before the weapon systems kicked in. Also, why aren't CS/Triax/RoJ trying to clear out satellites and other danger platforms?

It does not specifically say. It does say anything that comes in range of the satellite gets shot down.

I always get confused because I understand that the major powers are technologically capable of producing a space craft but simply can't get past the orbital defences. The technology exists to shoot down missiles or just bombard orbit so what would be the negative of trying to clear out space so that high altitude supersonic/ballistic flights could be establish.

I think it would be easy for any of the major powers to build a ground based laser to target and destroy all the killer satellites. The debris field would take more effort to deal with. Given time, all the debris would slow and fall harmlessly into the atmosphere, so if the ground based laser could prevent anyone in higher orbits from replenishing the debris field, space would become accessible again. Of course, the powers in orbit could wage a similar war on anything sent from Earth into orbit or, if they feel particularly intolerant, they could target locations on the ground.

Basically, lots of people would die and lower earth orbit would become a killing ground for both sides.

But it would be completely doable.

--flatline

Big issue is range. The longest range energy weapon that any major power in Phase world has, has a range of 16 miles in an atmosphere (roughly 120 miles in space IIRC). 16 miles doesn't even get you remotely near orbit. Even assuming that the atmosphere thins and taking into account that, you might be able to punch a laser up to around 40-60 miles altitude. That isn't even LEO.

The lowest of the low satellites likely are around 200km or so of altitude assuming advance station keeping drives. They have an advantage in that they are shooting down through nearly no atmosphere that progressively gets thicker. So if they have a nice super laser on them with a range of 80 miles (128km), it is going to be getting diffused almost not at all through that amount of atmosphere (as even at 70-80km the atmosphere is less than 10% the thickness of sea level).

Have some advanced rail guns and super long range lasers, and some really low orbiting satellites with advanced station keeping drives (to combat the air friction at that altitude. The ISS at around 400km altitude loses about 2km of altitude a year due to air friction and combats that with RCS to boost its orbit. I am not sure rate of decay at 200km, or even say 150km, but I'd imagine it would likely deorbit completely in less than 18 months without something combating the air friction periodically. which wouldn't be a major issue with a nice advanced ion drive as well as periodic refueling).

You might not be super accurate, but something in the 150-200km orbit range probably could have a resonable chance of hitting something flying above 100,000ft. Even at 1/100 chance of a hit if just over that altitude, it makes it damned unhealthy if you have a satellite taking a potshot at you every minute or two and accuracy and rate of fire at you is just going to increase as you gain altitude. Only way to hit back, either ASAT missiles, or mount a similarly long ranged weapon on a platform flying up around 100,000+ft.

azazel1024 wrote:Big issue is range. The longest range energy weapon that any major power in Phase world has, has a range of 16 miles in an atmosphere (roughly 120 miles in space IIRC). 16 miles doesn't even get you remotely near orbit. Even assuming that the atmosphere thins and taking into account that, you might be able to punch a laser up to around 40-60 miles altitude. That isn't even LEO.

The only canon weapons I'm aware of that can reach into orbit are the planetary defense weapons on the Kreegor homeworld.

But ignoring what's in canon and focusing on what should actually be possible, we can hit things in orbit with a ground based laser today. The Chinese did it recently much to the horror of everyone who cares about the problem of orbital space garbage.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:Big issue is range. The longest range energy weapon that any major power in Phase world has, has a range of 16 miles in an atmosphere (roughly 120 miles in space IIRC). 16 miles doesn't even get you remotely near orbit. Even assuming that the atmosphere thins and taking into account that, you might be able to punch a laser up to around 40-60 miles altitude. That isn't even LEO.

The only canon weapons I'm aware of that can reach into orbit are the planetary defense weapons on the Kreegor homeworld.

But ignoring what's in canon and focusing on what should actually be possible, we can hit things in orbit with a ground based laser today. The Chinese did it recently much to the horror of everyone who cares about the problem of orbital space garbage.

--flatline

That was an ASAT missile they fired. Last time China has shown any G2S laser capability was back in 2006 when they shot lasers at a number of US satellites in an attempt to blind them (I believe the worst that happened was temporaryly dazzling several of them).

It takes one hell of a lot of laser power to actually do physical damage to a satellite at a range of between 200-300 miles. That is just simply assuming you are shooting at something in LEO. Trying to knock out something in GSO is basically impossible with a directed energy weapon with any resonable power draw.

I don't know the exact math to calculate the power delivery over range, especially taking in to account atmosphere, for a laser (and I know it depends on frequency as well), but my best guess is to do physical damage it would take something at LEAST on the scale of a 200-300MW laser able to pulse at a minimum of 5-10MJ. That is well beyond the capability of any current lasers that I know of. You could certainly blind one with optical sensors at less power than that though.

Go to something with MDC and we are talking power outputs from an entire nuclear reactor, and I don't mean the little nuclear power packs in a suit of PA or even big honking vehicle.

Build an installation large enough to take out LEO satellites with directed energy weapons and people in space are probably going to notice. Start zapping satellites and I can pretty much guarantee they'll drop something down the gravity well on the installation. A 200m diameter asteroid dropping at even gentle LEO speeds is going to give anyone in about a 1km radius a very, VERY bad day.

Any surface-based laser big and powerful enough to take out orbiting satellites(or looks like a laser-launch system) is going to attract serious attention, maybe a powersat microwave zap or even a rock(THOR strike). Orbital bombardment, anybody?

Shark_Force wrote:yeah, i think a lot of people are under-rating rifts "hover" technology. a hovercycle is terrible for transporting large quantities of low-value goods, obviously, but they're absolutely great for personal travel above-ground.

for example, just pulling out my GMG... first page of vehicles, quebec has a "hover" transport. it has a max altitude of 600 feet. that's going to get you past a lot of obstacles (especially since afaict, in rifts max altitude is generally referring to above ground, rather than above sea level). whatever "hover" means in rifts, it certainly isn't the same as our modern hovercraft.

now granted, that transport is 2.5 million credits (though it's also a military model, which increases costs), but point being, the only thing an airplane adds to the equation is a higher flight ceiling.

the coalition has several hover cars, the cheapest of which is 650k credits (with non-CS equivalents costing 850k credits if you don't want to get shot down for having CS property). the flight ceiling on that one is 500 feet, again plenty high for obstacle evasion. free quebec has a hovercycle with a max altitude of 2500 feet.

even the "worst" of the hoverbikes can handle 60 feet up. the NG-300 (the one in the main book) is listed in GMG as having a max altitude of 120 feet.

hover technology is generally sufficient for getting around. conventional flight (ie airplanes, jets, helicopters) is going to need more for motivation than just avoiding obstacles.

when you can produce a bike that can fly well enough and it costs just over 100k credits, i think there's a lot less incentive to develop a transport jet.

It is those types of hover craft that are in the real danger area when flying. You are well within the range of almost all modern rifles and many magic spells and are flying low loud and very obviously. The ones with the max ceilings of 20-40k are probably pretty safe as not much is going to be loitering around at that altitude and few weapons could reach you from the ground other than very heavy expensive missiles. But if you are in the 100 to 2500 foot range you are just roaring out there for every jack hole with a rifle to take potshots at you to try to take your stuff. Sure their chances of hitting you are not great but they don't have to get lucky much to take down most hover crafts.

enhancer wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:In Rifts, most vehicles are equipped with radar. It is no matter to shoot a missile at a plane when it is guided by radar. Not to mention, you can fire before the plane even flies over your position.

Which can be jammed, decoyed, shot down in return, dodged, etc. Also for firing before the plane passes over, you still have to estimate how far in advance to fire the missile. Too soon and it runs out of fuel before the plane enters range, too late and it passes out of range.

Just because it is an easy lock on, doesn't mean you still have a great chance to hit or would necessarily even have the range to hit it.

I think it is important to bring up MANPADS. Most small surface to air missiles use infrared homing technology, which cannot be jammed. Flares are an effective defense(Rifts doesn't seem to use IRCM), however mostly on older designs. Newer variations on launchers use a combination of infrared and target identification(UV) to distinguish flares from planes. These missiles can reach speeds over Mach 2 and have a range of around 3 miles(and 15,000ft). Since the U.S alone has over 13,000 now, it is reasonable to assume some survived. There are also beam riding laser guided missiles, which follow the beam to the target, and cannot be jammed, decoyed, chaffed, or flared. Their difficulty is maintaining a lock on the target, which requires some skill, however if paired with a radar system it tracks the target and rides the beam to the location. Even older designs, like the RBS 70, have a 95% kill rate if directed within 30 meters, have a range of 5 miles and ceiling of 5km. Newer designs like the Starstreak can do mach 3.5. These weapons would be relatively rare in Rifts, like their pre-Rifts RPG cousins, and since based on pre-Rifts explosives they would only do a few M.D. Hardly a major danger to modern M.D.C vehicles, but absolutely deadly to the simple light aircraft you propose. I realize that finding one in the hands of a random person in Rifts would likely be more rare than a plane, but I think it is an important issue to be aware of. Furthermore, if these weapons exist, I would think it would only be a matter of time until someone looked at a Short Range Missile with the same application, or even just placed the warhead of one in a MANPAD(they are about the same size). Just think what the 300 years of technological advancement in Rifts could do, with even a browse through the Wilk's catalog.

Both IR/UV and image recognition technologies CAN be decoyed (in the case of IR/UV), it just takes something more than a flare. They can also be dazzled. Its a pretty simple expedient for a target air craft to detect a MANPAD launch, lock a low power laser on it and blind the sensors within the missile. There are several systems on the market today that can do just that (and one or two being looked at for service on commercial air liners). I'd think it would be pretty trivial in Rifts to dazzle an IR homing missile.

There are counter measures for anything if you work on it. There are also ways around counter measures if you work on it too though.

and in rifts, the flares do work. so obviously either the IR guidance being used is not as advanced, or the flares being used are more advanced than today. or both.

and technically, the guidance method used with missiels is unstated. they can be spoofed with flares and ECm, they can benifit from laser designation.. but we don't know if this is a single standardized guidance package found on all guided missiles, or if each of these is supposed to apply to specific guidance packages, and you have to pick and choose between radar, IR, optical, laser designation, etc when buying guided missiles.

and of course, the majority of missles in rifts are actually unguided rockets, with guided missiles being rare. i'd imagine that MANPAD SAM's are rare also.

There is also the fact that weapons tech in Palladium is far more iterested in 'cool' than hard science. Ranges, Sensors, Defensese, Etc are often handwaved for the sake of cool factor. Its not a bug, its a feature though, the game was designed with that in mind.

kaid wrote:It is those types of hover craft that are in the real danger area when flying. You are well within the range of almost all modern rifles and many magic spells and are flying low loud and very obviously. The ones with the max ceilings of 20-40k are probably pretty safe as not much is going to be loitering around at that altitude and few weapons could reach you from the ground other than very heavy expensive missiles. But if you are in the 100 to 2500 foot range you are just roaring out there for every jack hole with a rifle to take potshots at you to try to take your stuff. Sure their chances of hitting you are not great but they don't have to get lucky much to take down most hover crafts.

sure, if someone knows you're coming. if not, it's actually not that likely for you to get hit. if we presume that long range radar had been available for most of the dark ages, i might agree, but really, if you look at the setting as described in 101 PA and compare it to now, it's pretty obvious that rifts earth in the current setting has gotten much more post-post apocalyptic than post-apocalyptic. new technologies are being introduced, large nations are forming, long-range trade is coming in... by 109 PA a lot has happened to make it more necessary to fly really high to avoid common threats.

in 100 PA, a group of bandits likely had 1-2 lasers that dealt a few d6 damage each, and their radar likely only could spot you about 5 miles away... you'd be ripping past at, say, 200 MPH, so if you happen upon the worst case scenario (they've got 10 miles worth of travel to prepare, courtesy of a perfectly-placed scout somehow), that means they've got about 3 minutes of prep time, including the radar operator calling it in.

if radar detection was more common (which would make an awful lot of sense), the pilot could quite potentially avoid an ambush quite easily. or if radar was less effective due to the fact that much of rifts earth is by now old growth forest and hovercraft will be harder to spot via radar due to not flying as high, you may only have a minute or so to get ready, if that. heck, if we assume a more reasonable scenario (the bandit camp is at the radar, so that they have a chance to ambush people coming from *any* direction), you're looking at 1.5 minutes in a best-case scenario for an undisciplined rabble to set up and deal ~200 damage to a fast-moving object (they'll have negatives to hit).

if the hovercraft has hired, for example, a psychic or mystic to throw up interfering force fields (courtesy of sixth sense) to catch some bullets... well, hovercraft *would* get knocked down occasionally, sure. but enough to justify researching high altitude, high-speed precision-engineered aircraft in a setting where scholars and scientists are extremely rare? i'd say not.

just remember, flying only has to have the reputation of being dangerous. whether or not it's more or less dangerous *now* is beside the point. the question is, was it more or less dangerous 20 years ago or 30 years ago, when air pressure, landing requirements, poor maps and navigation capabilities, difficulty finding fuel, difficulty maintaining the vehicle, and other such dangers would be more of a concern... the reputation you have today isn't formed only by your actions today, but rather by your actions over a period of time. if flying was dangerous 10-20 years ago, then it will still be common knowledge that "flying is dangerous". and anyone who tells people otherwise just might be calling someone's beloved old grandpappy a liar.

When i read that line in RUE, it only ever makes sense if you look at it as saying that most missiles are not smart bombs. I cant for one moment buy that most missiles above short range are dumbfire. They'd be patently useless.

Shark_Force wrote:sure, if someone knows you're coming. if not, it's actually not that likely for you to get hit. if we presume that long range radar had been available for most of the dark ages, i might agree, but really, if you look at the setting as described in 101 PA and compare it to now, it's pretty obvious that rifts earth in the current setting has gotten much more post-post apocalyptic than post-apocalyptic. new technologies are being introduced, large nations are forming, long-range trade is coming in... by 109 PA a lot has happened to make it more necessary to fly really high to avoid common threats.


just remember, flying only has to have the reputation of being dangerous. whether or not it's more or less dangerous *now* is beside the point. the question is, was it more or less dangerous 20 years ago or 30 years ago, when air pressure, landing requirements, poor maps and navigation capabilities, difficulty finding fuel, difficulty maintaining the vehicle, and other such dangers would be more of a concern... the reputation you have today isn't formed only by your actions today, but rather by your actions over a period of time. if flying was dangerous 10-20 years ago, then it will still be common knowledge that "flying is dangerous". and anyone who tells people otherwise just might be calling someone's beloved old grandpappy a liar.

These are the best two arguments, for and against air travel, that I have seen the whole thread.

While perusing the RUE book, i noticed that for a paltry 16,000 credits you can buy yourself a military-grade portable (in that it can be mounted on a vehicle) radar system with a 100-mile range.

So, not so hard for bandits to be prepared to shoot down air traffic, at least. Or anyone else, since that is less than the cost of some pistols.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:While perusing the RUE book, i noticed that for a paltry 16,000 credits you can buy yourself a military-grade portable (in that it can be mounted on a vehicle) radar system with a 100-mile range.

So, not so hard for bandits to be prepared to shoot down air traffic, at least. Or anyone else, since that is less than the cost of some pistols.

Ya! But you better have that radar on an extendable tower to see over ground clutter, because in anything less than open plains/desert or atop a mountain, actual radar range may vary. And be sure you have a qualfied operator, otherwise you're going to be going to condition red over every pigeon, foil balloon, and TW-powered pogostick popping up into the radar scan.

and military grade portable radars =/= ground guidance radar for missiles
it means you'd got something along the lines of a AN/MPQ-64 Sentinel 3dimensional scan radar system. something designed to detect and track objects in flight. usually Pulse Doppler because it gives better range and detection.

to guide surface to air missiles you need a Illuminator Radar or Fire Control radar. the former is a continuous wave radar used to paint targets with radar beams, so beam rider or semi-active homing missiles can find it. the latter is a special 3D radar optimized for providing data for firing solutions. it's more accurate with range and position finding, but much less effective at detection if you don't already know there is a target there. fire control radars are used with active homing radar guided missiles, to provide the initial flight plan. sometimes with IR guided missiles too nowadays, same purpose. these different radar types are why surface to air missile batterys usually have half a dozen or more radars. usually 3-4 detection types, sometimes with ones geared for specific altitudes (low altitude detection requires special radar enhancements to filter the clutter), the rest being the illuminator or fire control types needed to guide the missiles. the multiple numbers is to provide redundancy and all around coverage.

except on aircraft, where weight constraints require special radars able to do all three, these are separate systems. and on aircraft design constraints limit them to relatively narrow fields of operation.

these aren't technology issues, they're fundamental issues of radar employment. they require different engineering and support. aircraft get by by basically having the hardware for all three types cohabiting in the same device. but that limits its effectiveness greatly.


and even if you were aware of a target early, your still facing to strike penalties of -5 or higher.

taalismn wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:While perusing the RUE book, i noticed that for a paltry 16,000 credits you can buy yourself a military-grade portable (in that it can be mounted on a vehicle) radar system with a 100-mile range.

So, not so hard for bandits to be prepared to shoot down air traffic, at least. Or anyone else, since that is less than the cost of some pistols.

Ya! But you better have that radar on an extendable tower to see over ground clutter, because in anything less than open plains/desert or atop a mountain, actual radar range may vary. And be sure you have a qualfied operator, otherwise you're going to be going to condition red over every pigeon, foil balloon, and TW-powered pogostick popping up into the radar scan.

I think his point was that even with a hovercycle (at 200 MPH) you would have at least a half hour to prepare, not the 2-3 minutes stated previously.

As for pigeons and balloons and such, you can tell the speed that something is traveling at, so no mistaking a fast moving object for a pigeon. If it is moving at like 15 MPH, not a plane. If it is moving at 200 MPH, not a bird or balloon. It is not hard to tell the difference in size of the object either.

Icefalcon wrote:[I think his point was that even with a hovercycle (at 200 MPH) you would have at least a half hour to prepare, not the 2-3 minutes stated previously.

As for pigeons and balloons and such, you can tell the speed that something is traveling at, so no mistaking a fast moving object for a pigeon. If it is moving at like 15 MPH, not a plane. If it is moving at 200 MPH, not a bird or balloon. It is not hard to tell the difference in size of the object either.

And higher-end systems probably even have 'smart' systems that grade and display various detected objects for the user; "Blue dots; good things. Red dots; bad things." based on preprogrammed parameters.

actually, most radars nowadays have software filters so they don't display returns below a certain size or ones that are probably just clutter.

one of the reasons Nape of Earth flying is so effective if done right. a high speed, large plane ends up mixing in with the ground clutter and the software fails to display it. its also why stealth tech actually lets you drop off the radar entirely. something with a radar return comparable to a buzzard, even if moving 600 mph like the F-117, is going to be a small enough return the software will tag it as a glitch or a bird, and not show it.

though usually speed can be an indicator. the SR-71 had enough composites and such that its radar return was the size of a cessna (pretty good for something that big in the pre-stealth days), but it's mach 3 cruising speed and 100,000ft + flight altitude meant no one was mistaking it for anything else.

but detection is only half the story. identification is aso important. a bandit group can make more money by demanding tolls/bribes/'protection money' than they can through fencing stolen goods. especially since if you start attacking traders regularly the traders will decide its worth the cost of some mercenaries to kill the bandits. make the tributes you demand cheap enough and they'll just stick to paying you off. besides, tribute/tolls/protection money is much less work.

plus it would be a good idea to know if that plane flying overhead is a cargo plane with goods, or a military craft that's going to call in backup to go and kill you.

so bandits aren't going to try and shoot down every thing they see. they'll try to identify it and decide if its worth the cost of attacking.

after all, any bandit group able to afford a portable radar and some anti-aircraft weapons is not going to be stupid.

Also of note, any vehicle can have a Targeting and combat computer added (500,000 according to Mercenaries) that can be linked to multiple sensor inputs.

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually, most radars nowadays have software filters so they don't display returns below a certain size or ones that are probably just clutter.

one of the reasons Nape of Earth flying is so effective if done right. a high speed, large plane ends up mixing in with the ground clutter and the software fails to display it. its also why stealth tech actually lets you drop off the radar entirely. something with a radar return comparable to a buzzard, even if moving 600 mph like the F-117, is going to be a small enough return the software will tag it as a glitch or a bird, and not show it.

though usually speed can be an indicator. the SR-71 had enough composites and such that its radar return was the size of a cessna (pretty good for something that big in the pre-stealth days), but it's mach 3 cruising speed and 100,000ft + flight altitude meant no one was mistaking it for anything else.

but detection is only half the story. identification is aso important. a bandit group can make more money by demanding tolls/bribes/'protection money' than they can through fencing stolen goods. especially since if you start attacking traders regularly the traders will decide its worth the cost of some mercenaries to kill the bandits. make the tributes you demand cheap enough and they'll just stick to paying you off. besides, tribute/tolls/protection money is much less work.

plus it would be a good idea to know if that plane flying overhead is a cargo plane with goods, or a military craft that's going to call in backup to go and kill you.

so bandits aren't going to try and shoot down every thing they see. they'll try to identify it and decide if its worth the cost of attacking.

after all, any bandit group able to afford a portable radar and some anti-aircraft weapons is not going to be stupid.

Good points, all of them. I had never considered the bandits would make more from tolls/protection angle in relation to this thread. However, there many dangers to taking to the sky. Some monster races are not going to care who they shoot down.

radar has one problem... while i haven't seen it specifically in rifts, for about a hundred bucks you can buy something that detects radar. oh, what's that? we just got scanned? well, we can just go around then. even assuming 100 mile range, how are you planning on physically covering that 100 mile radius? it's not like you can just walk there...

and having said 100 mile radius radar is going to make it *very* easy to find you. it's like you just lit up a beacon that says "i am here". when the traders start getting annoyed, it will be easy to find you.

Shark_Force wrote:radar has one problem... while i haven't seen it specifically in rifts, for about a hundred bucks you can buy something that detects radar. oh, what's that? we just got scanned? well, we can just go around then. even assuming 100 mile range, how are you planning on physically covering that 100 mile radius? it's not like you can just walk there...

and having said 100 mile radius radar is going to make it *very* easy to find you. it's like you just lit up a beacon that says "i am here". when the traders start getting annoyed, it will be easy to find you.

I always enjoy Shark Force's posts.

enhancer wrote:

taalismn wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:While perusing the RUE book, i noticed that for a paltry 16,000 credits you can buy yourself a military-grade portable (in that it can be mounted on a vehicle) radar system with a 100-mile range.

So, not so hard for bandits to be prepared to shoot down air traffic, at least. Or anyone else, since that is less than the cost of some pistols.

Ya! But you better have that radar on an extendable tower to see over ground clutter, because in anything less than open plains/desert or atop a mountain, actual radar range may vary. And be sure you have a qualfied operator, otherwise you're going to be going to condition red over every pigeon, foil balloon, and TW-powered pogostick popping up into the radar scan.

Which is anyone with a Read & Operate Sensory Equipment skill.

There was once a time when the biggest value my Temporal Wizard could give the party was exactly that. Read Sensory Equipment isn't listed as an OCC skill, but all Temporal Wizards have Navigation which lists Read Sensory Equipment (or whatever it's called now post-RUE) as a prerequisite so they have it, even if they don't realize it.

--flatline

Ninjabunny wrote:If you have a skill that has a required prerequisite skill you get it automatically. Told that one by Kevin himself at one of the open houses

It is also listed in the errata listed at the top of this forum.

Lets also keep in mind that bandits aren't necessarily low-tech simpletons. The Pecos Empire alone has almost 300,000+ full-time criminals/bandits. They are pretty well armed. Many of them make their livings raiding outside of the Empire, as far north as 1st Cavalry territory (mentioned in New West) and even up into CS Missouri and the western portions of the Federation of Magic.

It isnt going to put a stand-still on air travel, but i imagine it is something only the bigger powers will risk, since they have the resources to provide powerful escorts also capable of flight.

Most smaller to medium powers probably avoid air travel because they cant provide powerful escorts and, quite simply, it is substantially safer on the ground for large shipments. A smaller escort (or at least one that doesnt consist of millions-of-credits-each flying Power Armor, Sky/Rocket Cycles, etc) or even a substantial one of just men in body armor and rifles can put out scouts and likely avoid bandit ambushes, for substantially less investment.

Let's also look at how Rifts Earth is organised.

1) There is a viable trade network that crosses the north american continent north to south, east to west. You can buy NG stuff just about anywhere.
2) Ergo, trade exists, perhaps using armoured caravans or whatnot, but unlikely
3) Air travel is faster and with fewer threats. Combine this with the sheer size and carrying capacity of many flying craft that are being built (Sky ships, large air transports) that are also VTOL or require only short runways, then you have the recipe for easy resupply on a hub-and-spoke system (With the spokes using ground distribution, or hover trucks).
4) Radar, missiles, radar and missile jamming exist. Realise this.
5) It is entirely possible that high-tech bandits will attempt to down your transport (as they would hold up a ground convoy), however the existence of point (1) indicates that much of the stuff still gets through.
6) Therefore, I expect the world of Rifts Earth to be very similar in transport to the 19th century gold rush era: A wide-ranging transport network carrying passengers and freight that may be waylaid by natural or unexpected disasters (ie: native attack or storms), or possibly by bushrangers (such as Ben Hall or Captain Thunderbolt). As a result, much transport (particularly valuables) travels under heavily armed convoy, but a lot of people still take their chances and successfully traverse from a to b without being badly molested. The same goes for Rifts: Bandits, Monsters, and Ley Line Storms exist, but they're not going to attack EVERYTHING that moves. In fact, they are only going to attack a small percentage (going on the numbers of stuff that gets moved around in point 1).

Comrade Corsarius wrote:Let's also look at how Rifts Earth is organised.

1) There is a viable trade network that crosses the north american continent north to south, east to west. You can buy NG stuff just about anywhere.
2) Ergo, trade exists, perhaps using armoured caravans or whatnot, but unlikely
3) Air travel is faster and with fewer threats. Combine this with the sheer size and carrying capacity of many flying craft that are being built (Sky ships, large air transports) that are also VTOL or require only short runways, then you have the recipe for easy resupply on a hub-and-spoke system (With the spokes using ground distribution, or hover trucks).
4) Radar, missiles, radar and missile jamming exist. Realise this.
5) It is entirely possible that high-tech bandits will attempt to down your transport (as they would hold up a ground convoy), however the existence of point (1) indicates that much of the stuff still gets through.
6) Therefore, I expect the world of Rifts Earth to be very similar in transport to the 19th century gold rush era: A wide-ranging transport network carrying passengers and freight that may be waylaid by natural or unexpected disasters (ie: native attack or storms), or possibly by bushrangers (such as Ben Hall or Captain Thunderbolt). As a result, much transport (particularly valuables) travels under heavily armed convoy, but a lot of people still take their chances and successfully traverse from a to b without being badly molested. The same goes for Rifts: Bandits, Monsters, and Ley Line Storms exist, but they're not going to attack EVERYTHING that moves. In fact, they are only going to attack a small percentage (going on the numbers of stuff that gets moved around in point 1).

NG transports their stuff by hover train. That has already been hinted at with the previews of the books. Many books have already stated that most trade takes place by caravan or ship. Get used to it. Most of the Rifts world is set up with ground or water based trade because it is less dangerous and expensive. It is simple economics. It is easier to save more product (or recover it if you are hit by bandits) from ground and water based cargo carriers than it is from downed (and most likely destroyed) aircraft.

Sure, I'm happily 'used to it'.

I'm pointing out that magical transport can be used to carry very large cargo with almost no overhead, and any air transport that is shot down will usually destroy whatever cargo is inside (making banditry of said cargo a near-worthless enterprise).

My argument is still that air travel has less direct threats (less, meaning 'not as much', not 'none'), or different threats which require different solutions. It's a way of carrying smaller, high-value cargo safely rather than overland. With the advent of large-capacity magical transport, in magic-dominated areas, I would expect them to use that rather than a technological solution (for example, wares distributed by Stormspire).

Either way, I feel that the concept of the '19th century gold rush' still works for ground or air. There is a transport network, it is well-used, but poorly policed. This means that high-value cargoes have people 'riding shotgun' or in convoy. Highwaymen/bandits/bushrangers still strike at smaller targets of opportunity, with only the most organised aiming to strike at 'big jobs', such as... hmm.... a hover-train job, perhaps?

I would expect such things here and there, but not (as some seem to think) the second you poke your nose outside your door.

Well, i think people are forgetting one thing about the air interdiction possibilities:

Yes, any plane shot down is likely to destroy the cargo, as well (well, a lot of the bigger stuff, at least. Id bet you could find lots of rifles and clips and stuff intact, though), and bandits know that...

just like they know that once you paint the guy with targeting radar and essentially tell him to "stand and deliver" - he's not going to commit suicide by ignoring the order to bring her down, because he's going to assume that you're not just lighting him up for the fun of it. Maybe hell try to ignore it - right until the first missile detonates a few hundred feet away. Then he's going to bring her down, because he doesnt want to die.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Well, i think people are forgetting one thing about the air interdiction possibilities:

Yes, any plane shot down is likely to destroy the cargo, as well (well, a lot of the bigger stuff, at least. Id bet you could find lots of rifles and clips and stuff intact, though), and bandits know that...

just like they know that once you paint the guy with targeting radar and essentially tell him to "stand and deliver" - he's not going to commit suicide by ignoring the order to bring her down, because he's going to assume that you're not just lighting him up for the fun of it. Maybe hell try to ignore it - right until the first missile detonates a few hundred feet away. Then he's going to bring her down, because he doesnt want to die.

Assuming he's flying at any reasonable speed and height, if he survives the first missle, he'll be out of range by the time they fire a second. Unless you're proposing that the bandits are using Medium or Long Range missiles.

--flatline

I dont see they wouldn't. The Pecos Bandits, in particular, have plenty of long-range firepower. And there's something like 350,000 of them. The assumption that "bandit" must equal "armed with one or two MD laser pistols and a bunch of SDC weapons" is kind of absurd. And bandit group that can afford to steal or own any number of NG or Triax bot designs can have medium or long range missiles.

Given that they can see the guy coming from about 100 miles out with a 15,000 credit portable military-grade radar installation, theyve got plenty of time to get a lock on him and make their demands.

Like i said, it wouldnt really bother the CS or other large powers too much (Free Quebec, etc) - theyve got the economic and military muscle to provide heavy escorts to their transport aircraft, but it would certainly discourage small-time air travel.

enhancer wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:
Both IR/UV and image recognition technologies CAN be decoyed (in the case of IR/UV), it just takes something more than a flare. They can also be dazzled. Its a pretty simple expedient for a target air craft to detect a MANPAD launch, lock a low power laser on it and blind the sensors within the missile. There are several systems on the market today that can do just that (and one or two being looked at for service on commercial air liners). I'd think it would be pretty trivial in Rifts to dazzle an IR homing missile.

There are counter measures for anything if you work on it. There are also ways around counter measures if you work on it too though.

I would expect military aircraft of Coalition or Triax quality to have countermeasures for such technology. However on a hand built personal aircraft? No. Furthermore, in order to be able to detect incoming missiles you would at least need radar. Not difficult to incorporate, Wilk's makes them for 5,500 credits, however using it announces your presence to every sensor in 20 miles, making you an obvious target to anyone interested. Furthermore, due to the speed of the missiles, anything less than military grade aircraft(I can't think of any non military Mach+ aircraft) cannot outrun them either. Finally, trying to incorporate radar, chaff dispensers, flare launchers, IR dazzlers and defense laser tracking systems into a personal aircraft is rapidly going to devolve the value equation to the point where it no longer makes sense to pick them over established equipment.

Nope. Plenty of aircraft today use IR detectors to detect missile launches at them. It isn't soley radar based. Also for any radar tracking missile launched at the plane, all it takes is passive radar detectors to determine if you are being painted and if a missile has been launched at you. seek, tracking and targetting radar signitures are very different. They have been around for decades. Ever watch a movie where you here an alarm in the plane when a missile is launched at it? Been around since at least Vietnam. Pilot/EWO hears a light tone when they are hit with targetting radar pulses, and then they get a damned annoying panic tone when the radar shifts to tracking mode (IE missile is likely riding down the beam at the plane).

Doesn't require any active radar at all, and with resonable advanced passive sensors, you can determine roughly where the missile is coming from as well (though not the distance to the missile itself, though you could determine the range to the radar station that is painting you).

IR detectors can determine exactly where the missile is and when one is launched at you. They've been in existance for at least a decade now and are fairly sophisiticated. Range isn't super long, but it'll stretch to at least a few km (I think most current ones can detect a launch or track a missile within 5-10km, basically MANPAD range). Again, completely passive sensors.

Using passive sensors you can mask your location by not going active with your radar and as soon as a launch is detected you can both activate your radar to determine exactly where the threat is located as well as spin up ECM. Downside is you can spoof enemies in to announcing their location (great for use against stealth aircraft). All you have to do is activate AA radar and then switch it to targetting mode. Downside is targetting is a somewhat narrower beam, but if you sweep it slowly across the sky, or use mulitple AA radars, you'll likely paint any aircraft in range at some point. Now if things are set to automatic ECM through computer control, odds are good that it'll cause the computer logic to activate ECM and/or active radar immediately blowing the aircrafts cover. If it is under human control, it depends on the human at the controls whether they believe they've been detected and have a missile coming at them. You could also launch ARM missiles, though that potentially gives you away from the lauch flare, though they don't (typically) use radar themselves.

ECM/EW is a cat and mouse game or measures, counter measures, counter-counter measures (one such described above).

Some of this stuff probably isn't common on a super basic hand built airplane. However, most probably aren't hand built. Most are probably built by low cost outfits like NG, MI, Golden Age. It doesn't take that much industrial capacity to build a basic light MDC airplane and they wouldn't necessarily be very expensive. Oh, sure adding tons of fancy EW/ECM capabilities would. That doesn't mean that a real basic radar warning system, short range radar (say, 5-10 mile range) and IR launch warning system would add that much cost.

I could easily see a 4 seat, single engine prop plane running maybe 150,000-250,000cr and roughly 100-150MDC possibly having those basics built in. Probably no weapons and no active counter measures (IE no jammers, no flares, no laser dazzlers, etc) included in that price though. Maybe top speed of 180mph and a range of 400 miles on either gasoline or electric depending on which engine type you chose.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I dont see they wouldn't. The Pecos Bandits, in particular, have plenty of long-range firepower. And there's something like 350,000 of them. The assumption that "bandit" must equal "armed with one or two MD laser pistols and a bunch of SDC weapons" is kind of absurd. And bandit group that can afford to steal or own any number of NG or Triax bot designs can have medium or long range missiles.

Given that they can see the guy coming from about 100 miles out with a 15,000 credit portable military-grade radar installation, theyve got plenty of time to get a lock on him and make their demands.

Like i said, it wouldnt really bother the CS or other large powers too much (Free Quebec, etc) - theyve got the economic and military muscle to provide heavy escorts to their transport aircraft, but it would certainly discourage small-time air travel.

Because those kinds of missiles are very expensive. I think one could assume that you'd generally want to either stay away from groups that could wreck such havoc, or else you'd already cut a safe passge tax with the group. So you have to pay a monthly toll to the group to fly through their airspace, worse things in life.

Considering the cost of your average long range missile, that isn't something most groups are going to consider using unless they need to, or a sure thing. IIRC long range missiles have a top speed of Mach 5. If you were 100 miles away and someone launched at you, that is roughly 100 seconds before the missile could hit you. From 24,000ft you can be on the deck in 80 seconds with a dive speed of 200mph (not unresonable for even a very light airplane, which couldn't fly that high anyway). You'd be below most any tracking radar while the missile was still a good 20 miles out, way further than any possible target acquisition radar on a missile could range in you.

Long range missiles aren't realistically a threat to most air planes unless either someone wants to stay high and stupid, or you are launching them a lot closer to your target. Say, within 30-40 miles. Long range missiles are more like Surface to Surface missiles beyond probably that 30-40 mile range. Now, with a sufficiently advanced one and a willingness to probably fire A LOT of them, you probably could still knock down a plane, but it gets pretty cost ineffective if you have to launch a dozen missiles and hope that the airplane you are launching against either doesn't have good counter measures and/or a slick pilot, because the odds that any of the missiles are going to lock target once the plane dives for the deck and starts evasive manuevering (assuming no ECM kicks in or decoys) isn't very high at those ranges.

The worst I see is commonly paid tolls and again, there are just plenty of places you know darned well are NOT smart to fly. IE anything across the middle of the country/Texas. We know there are a boat load of airplanes in the game. The only thing that isn't represented in a big way are commercial/civilian light airplanes, which again, makes no sense why there wouldn't be a lot of that.

Sure lots of stuff transported by ship, truck, hover vehicle. However, even hover vehicles are likely going to be taking one of only a few paths to get to a place (or not too far off set routes). Pretty easy to figure out the routes for caravans and stuff and just waylay them. Travel on the ground is not likely to be safer than travel by air (most places).

azazel1024 wrote:Because those kinds of missiles are very expensive. I think one could assume that you'd generally want to either stay away from groups that could wreck such havoc, or else you'd already cut a safe passge tax with the group. So you have to pay a monthly toll to the group to fly through their airspace, worse things in life.

Considering the cost of your average long range missile, that isn't something most groups are going to consider using unless they need to, or a sure thing. IIRC long range missiles have a top speed of Mach 5. If you were 100 miles away and someone launched at you, that is roughly 100 seconds before the missile could hit you. From 24,000ft you can be on the deck in 80 seconds with a dive speed of 200mph (not unresonable for even a very light airplane, which couldn't fly that high anyway). You'd be below most any tracking radar while the missile was still a good 20 miles out, way further than any possible target acquisition radar on a missile could range in you.

So basically you'd count on the bandits to be completely incompetent about when to fire a warning shot/declare hostilities, and then dive down to an altitude that actually puts you in range of interception by their (extremely common, cheap) attack aircraft like Skycycles, SkyKing, etc. I don't think i'd open up on a guy at maximum range - precisely because you give him so much time to take evasive action. You open up on him at a range that allows you to take follow up action; the first shot is only a statement of intent, anyway.

Long range missiles aren't realistically a threat to most air planes unless either someone wants to stay high and stupid, or you are launching them a lot closer to your target. Say, within 30-40 miles. Long range missiles are more like Surface to Surface missiles beyond probably that 30-40 mile range. Now, with a sufficiently advanced one and a willingness to probably fire A LOT of them, you probably could still knock down a plane, but it gets pretty cost ineffective if you have to launch a dozen missiles and hope that the airplane you are launching against either doesn't have good counter measures and/or a slick pilot, because the odds that any of the missiles are going to lock target once the plane dives for the deck and starts evasive manuevering (assuming no ECM kicks in or decoys) isn't very high at those ranges.

They are a very realistic threat to aircraft in Rifts Earth, since i can count on two hands the number of transport aircraft with a service ceiling above 10,000ft. (edit: or, for that matter, a speed above Mach 1) Adding in the fighter aircraft deployed (very) recently by various nations, and you can add quite a few more, but for transport craft, there's not a wide selection. Also, nothing in Rifts Earth packs ECM, Decoys, or even Flares; or at least, so few things that i cant remember ever have read about it even once.

The worst I see is commonly paid tolls and again, there are just plenty of places you know darned well are NOT smart to fly. IE anything across the middle of the country/Texas. We know there are a boat load of airplanes in the game. The only thing that isn't represented in a big way are commercial/civilian light airplanes, which again, makes no sense why there wouldn't be a lot of that.

Sure lots of stuff transported by ship, truck, hover vehicle. However, even hover vehicles are likely going to be taking one of only a few paths to get to a place (or not too far off set routes). Pretty easy to figure out the routes for caravans and stuff and just waylay them. Travel on the ground is not likely to be safer than travel by air (most places).

I disagree; on the ground i can protect my convoy with *much* cheaper firepower in the form of guys-in-body-armor, and put out scouts and pickets to make sure we're not riding into an ambush. You're a LOT less likely to get attacked that way.

Also, well-traveled roads are likely to be patrolled by the local power (CS State, Local barony, city state, what have you - or even the 1st Cavalry or Tundra Rangers) and kept safe than airways, because its a lot easier and cheaper to send out patrols of guys on horseback/hovercycle/foot to patrol your roads than it is to finance constant air patrols.

in the air body guards cost more yes, but your only travelling for a few hours and your number of enemies is way lower.

on the ground you have to hire tons of those cheap guards, your looking at multi-day travel times, and you have ot deal with lots more threats by monsters and bandits.

for those using the pecos empire as their example bandits... ok, that's nice and all, but uhhh... that's basically a nation. it's not quite the same thing. you avoid the area where they reign supreme (or pay them off), and you have no problems with them.

Look at the Bandit: Highwayman in the New West book. They are allowed to start with a hovercycle. Some of those hovercycles have speeds of 200MPH or more. A small plane might have a speed of 800MPH. Yes, the plane will quickly outdistance (and has a higher ceiling than) that hovercycle. However, while that bandit is charging at that (relatively) low-flying aircraft, he may be able to get off some shots with the vehicle weapons (which may include mini missiles) before the plane gets away. And this is at first level.

The equipment section already says that a bandit can upgrade weapons and vehicles later. The skills area says that bandit can have ANY military or pilot skill that he wants. A few decent jobs will allow them to buy missile emplacements (several posted in surrounding terrain; I am thinking specifically of the medium SAWS from rifts mercenaries, 50,000 plus 15,00 per missile and are automated and +5 to strike), a vehicle with a better flight ceiling (maybe eventually a Iron Eagle attack helicopter?), longer range weapons (maybe sniper rifle or some such), or maybe just EM capability to knock out the flight ability of the craft (thereby forcing it to make a glide landing).

so...

we're assuming that the bandits, having gotten a bunch of money, are going to spend it on upgrading so that they can be better bandits instead of spending it on what was likely their whole objective in being a bandit in the first place (ie getting rich).

just because PCs are a bunch of wackos who never seem to think about retiring and are always salivating over getting the next piece of awesome loot with no regard for their personal safety, doesn't mean that should apply to everyone else in the setting. it's that way for PCs because it makes for a more fun game if they stick with their characters after they become successful... but for a bandit? they're not going to invest millions of credits (or even hundreds of thousands of credits) in new gear. they're going to invest in moving someplace where nobody knows they're a wanted person, and retire. they already have what they wanted out of banditry by the time they've got enough to buy really heavy duty stuff.

Hmm...so if I were to build a party for a bandit campaign, the first two members would be:
1. Temporal Wizard to operate the radar and, you know, add that awesome sauce to a party that only Temporal Wizards can.
2. Super powered OCC of choice with Sonic Flight that can fly up to an aircraft and force them to land (or empty a phase beamer into the cockpit and bring the aircraft down safely...somehow...)

--flatline

Icefalcon wrote:Look at the Bandit: Highwayman in the New West book. They are allowed to start with a hovercycle. Some of those hovercycles have speeds of 200MPH or more. A small plane might have a speed of 800MPH. Yes, the plane will quickly outdistance (and has a higher ceiling than) that hovercycle. However, while that bandit is charging at that (relatively) low-flying aircraft, he may be able to get off some shots with the vehicle weapons (which may include mini missiles) before the plane gets away. And this is at first level.

The equipment section already says that a bandit can upgrade weapons and vehicles later. The skills area says that bandit can have ANY military or pilot skill that he wants. A few decent jobs will allow them to buy missile emplacements (several posted in surrounding terrain; I am thinking specifically of the medium SAWS from rifts mercenaries, 50,000 plus 15,00 per missile and are automated and +5 to strike), a vehicle with a better flight ceiling (maybe eventually a Iron Eagle attack helicopter?), longer range weapons (maybe sniper rifle or some such), or maybe just EM capability to knock out the flight ability of the craft (thereby forcing it to make a glide landing).

Yes, that seems like a realistic scenario for most bandits. Sounds like a bandit with a very low life expancy anywhere remotely civilized. Keep in mind, things are relatively lawless East of the CS, but there are still a TON of small to moderate sized city states and kingdoms as well as organizations (mercenary or corporate). Most would not cotton to bandits of any sort, left alone the kind that are either downing their planes or threatening them.

That small time bandit (who, by the way, where are they getting those kinds of resources???) is likely to pickup some long range missiles dropping on them, or a quick cease and desist flight from the local power if they are attempting to bring down planes.

Most of the city states and kingdoms East of the CS/Mississippi are not thousands of miles apart. A lot of them are a mere hundred or two hundred miles apart. Even if the borders of them only extend out a few miles to a few dozen miles, that still breaks up the area where Bandits could even hope to operate in, let alone that all that plane has to do is send out a Mayday, and odds might not be too bad that the local armed forces might respond.

You might be flying a subsonic transport plane (most have ceilings over 10,000ft, as I posted an earlier example of a 1930's era single engine light plane, a Piper Cub, has a ceiling of 11,200ft. Something like a C-130 has a ceiling of 23,000 max load, 33,000 empty. A very common light airplane is the Piper Seneca, it twin engined, has a useful load a hair shy of 1,000lbs or 5-6 passnegers, has a cruise speed of 216mph and a max speed of 235mph and a max service ceiling of 25,000ft.

Most planes can easy fly higher than 20,000ft.

Final example, Cesna 172. Most common plane ever built and also the prototypical light airplane. Single engine (160hp engine), 4 seat (pilot + 3 passengers, or around 600lbs of useful load). It has a cruise speed of 140mph and a NES of 188mph (Never Exceed Speed, IE don't do it, not even in a dive. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!). A range of 801 miles with a 45 minute reserve at 55% power and 12,000ft altitude (roughly cruise speed) on 56 gallons of Avgas (a pretty impressive ~16 miles to the gallon). It has a service ceiling of 13,500ft.

You don't typically fly planes low unless there is a good reason. The higher you go, the better your fuel economy as you have less air resistance and your combustion efficiency also tends to be higher.

Ahh... good old VNE

You forgot the most popular transport aircraft ever built (and one that would be perfect for bush airstrips and short takeoffs), the good old Antonov AN-2. There's a reason they're still being used, although I would not expect any 20th century stuff to still be in any form of working order in PA 107.

Having said that, it's been 107 years since the apocalypse. We built an entire country in slightly over 100 (from 1788 to federation in 1901, and the states were actually independent countries with powerful militaries (particularly Victoria) even before then). I'm certain that somebody in Rifts would have made an equivalent, and possibly from low-MD materials to boot.

I like the 'radar paint 'em, the modern 'stand and deliver''. Very nice. Similar to how the Swiss would intercept aircraft in searchlights and force them to land during WW2 as they were traversing neutral airspace. Not often a lot of shots fired, but quite a few aircraft interned. Having said that, there were still PLENTY of incursions that were not intercepted.

Actually THIS looks pretty rifts-y all by itself. It fills all the 'rifts' requirements.

a) Is it anachronistic? Yes.
b) Is it jet-powered? Yes.
c) Is it odd-but-might-work? Yes.
d) Is it futuristic-but-antiquated-at-the-same-time? Yes.

I would strongly look up the definition of 'Zeerust' in 'The meaning of Liff'. This one fits it.

flatline wrote:Hmm...so if I were to build a party for a bandit campaign, the first two members would be:
1. Temporal Wizard to operate the radar and, you know, add that awesome sauce to a party that only Temporal Wizards can.
2. Super powered OCC of choice with Sonic Flight that can fly up to an aircraft and force them to land (or empty a phase beamer into the cockpit and bring the aircraft down safely...somehow...)

--flatline

that's hardly typical of a bandit group. you can keep on making up all the ridiculous "well what if we get this exactly perfect combination of abilities" all you like, but i'm going to keep on with saying "that's nice, but how common do you think temporal wizards and superbeings with sonic flight are, exactly?"

it could work for a PC group, though i'm not at all certain that would be the best career choice for the characters described. they seem like they have the skills to make lots of money in ways that *won't* paint a target on their head as banditry would.

Shark_Force wrote:for those using the pecos empire as their example bandits... ok, that's nice and all, but uhhh... that's basically a nation. it's not quite the same thing. you avoid the area where they reign supreme (or pay them off), and you have no problems with them.

It says pretty explicitly that they (the Pecos Bandits) regularly raid as far north as the canadian border and all the way up into the magic zone.

I also stand by my statement that the number of heavy-lift air transports capable of moving any worthwhile amount of cargo that have service ceilings above 10,000ft can be counted on two hands. The number that can get to Mach 1 (much less go faster) is even lower.

Shark_Force wrote:

flatline wrote:Hmm...so if I were to build a party for a bandit campaign, the first two members would be:
1. Temporal Wizard to operate the radar and, you know, add that awesome sauce to a party that only Temporal Wizards can.
2. Super powered OCC of choice with Sonic Flight that can fly up to an aircraft and force them to land (or empty a phase beamer into the cockpit and bring the aircraft down safely...somehow...)

--flatline

that's hardly typical of a bandit group. you can keep on making up all the ridiculous "well what if we get this exactly perfect combination of abilities" all you like, but i'm going to keep on with saying "that's nice, but how common do you think temporal wizards and superbeings with sonic flight are, exactly?"

Player characters are always the exception. But that said, people tend to gravitate towards professions that they have some natural aptitude for, so I wouldn't be surprised to find that in Rifts there are bandits with abilities that make it easier for them to take advantage of others.

it could work for a PC group, though i'm not at all certain that would be the best career choice for the characters described. they seem like they have the skills to make lots of money in ways that *won't* paint a target on their head as banditry would.

True, true, but I've actually played in campaigns where we resorted to selective banditry when we wanted a change of pace or couldn't think of anything better to do. In one campaign we actually spent a lot of effort to capture CS troops and their equipment (especially SAMAS and SAMAS pilots) and whisking them away to Wormwood to have them fight the Unholy for us.

But as far as career choice goes, how many other careers can you think of where ambitious characters can snag millions of credits in equipment in a single day's work?

--flatline

flatline wrote:But as far as career choice goes, how many other careers can you think of where ambitious characters can snag millions of credits in equipment in a single day's work?

--flatline

Yep. Even at a 10% return (the standard rate of return in the original Rifts book, i didnt look to see if it was still in the RUE book) if you manage to capture a single Mark V APC mostly intact, you've made a couple million in an afternoon.

With the right setup, it wouldn't even be hard to accomplish - combination of overwhelming firepower on the infantry, boxing the vehicle in with hazards/traps, and an order to surrender or be blown to smithereens and they'd probably surrender at the promise of letting them go in their civvies while you drove off in the Mark V with their gear.

OK, people are focusing a little too much on the bandit scenario. There are other dangers of air travel that make it more risky.
1) Slow flying animals- This is a danger for even today's aircraft. What happens when you are trying to land that nice light aircraft on some airstrip in the middle of nowhere and one of the MDC flying monsters flies right into your path or even attacks as you try to land? No 10,000 foot flight ceiling then is there?
2) Airfields can be raided- Yes, and just as easily as it is to raid a ground convoy too. Those bandits you say it is not worth it for them to shoot down the planes don't have to. They can just wait for them to land and shut off the engines before taking the cargo, the plane and anything else they want.
3) Other vehicles- Yes, the planes can be shot at when they are going up in the air or down to land. They can't stay in the air all of the time.

You see, these are but three examples. I could come up with more.

azazel1024 wrote:Yes, that seems like a realistic scenario for most bandits. Sounds like a bandit with a very low life expancy anywhere remotely civilized. Keep in mind, things are relatively lawless East of the CS, but there are still a TON of small to moderate sized city states and kingdoms as well as organizations (mercenary or corporate). Most would not cotton to bandits of any sort, left alone the kind that are either downing their planes or threatening them.

They wouldn't have to do it more than once or twice in any given area before they move on. And the sarcasm is noted.

azazel1024 wrote:That small time bandit (who, by the way, where are they getting those kinds of resources???) is likely to pickup some long range missiles dropping on them, or a quick cease and desist flight from the local power if they are attempting to bring down planes.

By the way, they are getting these resources from stealing everything not nailed down, which can amount to millions of credits of stuff in a single day (as noted in a previous post). And as I said, bandits do not tend to stay in an area too long if they are pulling stunts like this. If it helps, maybe it is not bandits. Maybe, it is some pissed off bad guy that just wants to watch the world burn. We know that there are already tons of those written into the game.

azazel1024 wrote:Most of the city states and kingdoms East of the CS/Mississippi are not thousands of miles apart. A lot of them are a mere hundred or two hundred miles apart. Even if the borders of them only extend out a few miles to a few dozen miles, that still breaks up the area where Bandits could even hope to operate in, let alone that all that plane has to do is send out a Mayday, and odds might not be too bad that the local armed forces might respond.

Still enough room for bandits to operate.

azazel1024 wrote:You might be flying a subsonic transport plane (most have ceilings over 10,000ft, as I posted an earlier example of a 1930's era single engine light plane, a Piper Cub, has a ceiling of 11,200ft. Something like a C-130 has a ceiling of 23,000 max load, 33,000 empty. A very common light airplane is the Piper Seneca, it twin engined, has a useful load a hair shy of 1,000lbs or 5-6 passnegers, has a cruise speed of 216mph and a max speed of 235mph and a max service ceiling of 25,000ft.

Most planes can easy fly higher than 20,000ft.

Final example, Cesna 172. Most common plane ever built and also the prototypical light airplane. Single engine (160hp engine), 4 seat (pilot + 3 passengers, or around 600lbs of useful load). It has a cruise speed of 140mph and a NES of 188mph (Never Exceed Speed, IE don't do it, not even in a dive. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!). A range of 801 miles with a 45 minute reserve at 55% power and 12,000ft altitude (roughly cruise speed) on 56 gallons of Avgas (a pretty impressive ~16 miles to the gallon). It has a service ceiling of 13,500ft.

And as soon as that plane leaves that operating ceiling? Or, how about before they reach that height? There are plenty of low-flying vehicles in the game that when this plane goes up or down, they can not only catch it but also blast it to pieces. Not to mention, faster flying but lower ceiling vehicles could very easily follow your high flying planes to and from destinations without pushing themselves.

azazel1024 wrote:You don't typically fly planes low unless there is a good reason. The higher you go, the better your fuel economy as you have less air resistance and your combustion efficiency also tends to be higher.

And I still say that ground transportation is cheaper, even if it is not as "safe".


I have said it once and I will say it one more time. While yes, I agree that there should be more planes in Rifts (including light cargo or passenger models, such as the Cessna), that does not mean that they are cheaper or safer than going by ground.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:for those using the pecos empire as their example bandits... ok, that's nice and all, but uhhh... that's basically a nation. it's not quite the same thing. you avoid the area where they reign supreme (or pay them off), and you have no problems with them.

It says pretty explicitly that they (the Pecos Bandits) regularly raid as far north as the canadian border and all the way up into the magic zone.

I also stand by my statement that the number of heavy-lift air transports capable of moving any worthwhile amount of cargo that have service ceilings above 10,000ft can be counted on two hands. The number that can get to Mach 1 (much less go faster) is even lower.

ANY heavy lift aircraft are going to be capable of exceeding 10,000ft. If you are bothering with the expense of flying stuff, any cargo is worthwhile. You aren't going to regularly be carrying tanks in your airplane. Air transportation is for relatively valuable things, like people, weapons, medicine, magic, money, precious metals/jewels, time sensitive things, mail, maybe expensive equipment.

Look at Alaska, get much beyond the couple of major cities and almost EVERYTHING is carried on a bush/float plane or the occasional boat. They certainly manage worthwhile cargos to support a fairly large populace (tens of thousands of people in total support by bush flights).

At least looking at today, there are a couple of thousands C-130s worldwide. There are at least that many 707 and 727s in operation. Probably more than that light to medium business jets and heavier lift twin turbo prop planes.

Not a stretch of the imagination (well, mine) to see most city states and kingdoms having at least a dozen or so planes capable of at least 2,000lbs of cargo capacity or 12 passengers and airspeeds over 250mph and ceilings over 20,000ft (basically ANY airplane that is either jet powered in some manner or has a turbocharged reciprocating engine and a pressurized cabin (most planes have some kind of pressurized cabin) have operating ceilings over 20,000ft). Bigger ones are going to have more than that, combined with maybe a few military jobs (gunships and/or fighters/attack planes old or new ones) and a large number of lighter planes and some helicopters and lots of hovercraft.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:for those using the pecos empire as their example bandits... ok, that's nice and all, but uhhh... that's basically a nation. it's not quite the same thing. you avoid the area where they reign supreme (or pay them off), and you have no problems with them.

It says pretty explicitly that they (the Pecos Bandits) regularly raid as far north as the canadian border and all the way up into the magic zone.

I also stand by my statement that the number of heavy-lift air transports capable of moving any worthwhile amount of cargo that have service ceilings above 10,000ft can be counted on two hands. The number that can get to Mach 1 (much less go faster) is even lower.

Also keep in mind, we know simply from Merc Ops that the specialized transportation company has a fair number of C-130s...at least as many as you can count on two hands. I doubt they are the only entity on the ENTIRE continent with C-130 lift capacity or heavier. Now your average sized kingdom or city state might not have more than you could count on 2 hands, in aggregate, no, probably a few hundred across the continent (not counting those owned by major nations, like the CS, NG and MI).