Forums of the Megaverse®

Posted: **Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:48 pm**

Blue_Lion wrote:
Ninjabunny wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Ninjabunny wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:most my life on the streets I can say for a fact that I can land more hits then five hits in 15 seconds, but I have no problem with attacks per round. I do a little when it comes to firing a guns as I can take aim and hit a moving target with all 8 rounds from a .45 in WAY less then 15 seconds, but again my opinion.

Landing 5 hits whould be a beginer, I looked up stats on boxing training and UFC. Read above for that.
by .45 you mean pistole most pistol ranges are realy close and have shorter time on exposer at the range. Most pistole ranges I have ran at lest 2 firers missed targets because the shot befor the target is up and locked. You will find at greater range the opiset is true, it takes about 5-8 second to hit a 300m target while targets at less than 50M can be hit in under 3 seconds.

Also whould you consider yourself a green shooter lvl 1 or a some what expernced around level 4 or highly expernced lvl 8+? Do you not think that whould make a difrence. With you beeing able to hit a moving target with 8 rounds in a row under 15 seconds I whould think you might be clasifed as a highly expernced shooter. A green shooter whould only hit it 1-4 times while a skilled one around 6 and a higly expernced one all 8.

Point taken, but in context of the system a trained solider should be able to do what I do with no trouble. Again though this is my opinion and it is as shown not shared I have no problem with the APR system I may not agree but I have never needed to change it.

You joking right half the people in the army barly qualify. I wish it where not so but lots of people in the military do not upkeep weapon skills, most whould be only as effective as level 1 charters in a fight. Now Combat arms does train and upkeep there weapons and have some highly skilled but beeing that is not true of all soldiers. Even the combat experts when the soldier first gets sent to the unit after beeing trained for what 4 months with less than 2 weeks dedicated to weapon use, they whould be green/lvl 1.

Personaly i think attaching attacks per round to HtH is silly as it has no barring on actual gun use. But they had to use something. Persoanly i whould probaly whould think a some sort of general combat expertise that is teared whould work make more sense. So you whould have No combat sense, basic combat sense, expert combat sense to councised witht he attacks from untraind hand to hand, basic hand to hand, expert hand to hand and martial arts. Maybe throw in some bonuses per level. Then have hand to hand just be a fighting style that gives a bonus per level to hand hand.

On this note, I have to point out that the characters in the game are supposed to be larger than life, highly trained and tough as nails. This is a game of heroes and villains, not common soldiers and farmers.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:17 am**

flatline wrote:
Sitting here in my chair, I just threw 40 chain punches in 6 seconds and I wasn't even really trying. That's 100 attacks per melee.

When Flatline hits people they explode. Just had a Fist of the north Star moment. Apologies i know it's of topic

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:44 am**

I don't think it's broken just clunky and in some cases in need of a revison and streamling at least some of the parts. I'm not going to outline every thing that is a issue for me yet here are some.

The hand weapon vs the larger sized weapon damage issue. I get that Kevin wanted to give players a chance to survive a direct heat from a robot sized and larger vehicle. Except he went too far imo. No way should a handgun or rifle out perform a weapon that is on a tank. robot or anything larger. It just goes beyond suspension of disbeleif and is rightly ridiculed in the gaming community. No other rpg at least to my knowledge suffers from what I think is a huge flaw in the game. Try going up against a tank with a automatic rifle and see if you survive a hit or even a near miss from it;s main gun

Too many skills. Way too many. Some redudant. Some a victim of the times. In the computer repair description it's written that those who repair machines can't even turn them on. I have a freind who builds computers for a living. It's very rare like the person has to be truly incompatent to not know how to turn on a pc they came to repair in this day and age. Too many similar skills. A few could be trimmed right off. I also agree that skills should not all go up as you go in level. a character should be given a certain number of skill points to allocate to their skills. Makes it more realistic imo. Same applies for some spells and super powers. Espcially super powers. Do we really need so many definations of energy expulsion. One energy explusion power you choose what kind of energy the character fires.

Too many occs. That are either overpowered or underpowered. Mind you not unique to Rifts. Many other rpgs. The archtypes in Paizo are imo a good example. Or too similar. Sometimes you see a soldier like occ which is essentially the CS grunt with a few changes and the serial numbers filled off. I'm not saying make everyone equal. Yet sometimes one occ or rcc is so powerful that it overshadows the other players at the table. No matter how good or creative the DM can be.

Organization, layout, inconsitent rules. PB has some of the worst layout, organization and copy and paste errors I have seen in the business. Not a deal breaker for me. A deal breaker for some who are used to more modern games which are organized better. Layed out better and have at least a errata you can download.

Never liked the holdover from 1E D&D where a spellcaster loses his magic if damaged. That should apply to everyone who takes damage. A mage loses his spell. The psionic loses his psionic ability or at least isp. The more combat oriented character loses his attack or receives a penalty to hit. Why should mages be the only ones afraid of little timmy and his bag of rocks.

Lack of a ability to do critical damage beyond getting it at certain levels depending on hand to hand skill. If I every run a game of rifts or any other mdc setting. Critical hits can be done at level one by everybody. Or else the damn combats take too long. Would also give it a more cinematic feel.

That it for now.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:59 am**

The entire combat system is abstract in the first place. It's not like your character is just standing around doing nothing in between attacks. In a perfect situation you can rattle of punches and kicks all you like, but in the heat of battle, it's not that simple. I've always viewed every RPG combat system as being abstract; every single action is not being described, necessarily - only the ones that count.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:02 am**

Defense rolls are one of the things that slow down combat horribly. set a base target number. 11 or greater hits. If you dodge add your dodge bonus to the target number. Saving a die roll and adjudicating the result saves a lot of time.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:58 am**

Daeglan wrote:Defense rolls are one of the things that slow down combat horribly. set a base target number. 11 or greater hits. If you dodge add your dodge bonus to the target number. Saving a die roll and adjudicating the result saves a lot of time.

NO! Active defenses is one of the staples of the Palladium System, we're not D&D, never will be, stop trying.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:31 am**

I've never seen a Palladium System. Never. Not once. Well, ok, maybe when I first discovered it. But It didn't take long to realize how it needed house rules to function. It's not a system. It's the Palladium Jumble.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:31 am**

BloodAnjiel wrote:[quote="Blue_LionPoint taken, but in context of the system a trained solider should be able to do what I do with no trouble. Again though this is my opinion and it is as shown not shared I have no problem with the APR system I may not agree but I have never needed to change it.

On this note, I have to point out that the characters in the game are supposed to be larger than life, highly trained and tough as nails. This is a game of heroes and villains, not common soldiers and farmers.[/quote]
Wait a salloon bumb is larger than life? A CS grunt is not a common soldier?
I think you are thinking of a difrent game nothing in rifts says that every charter is tuff as nails larger than life it gives you the option of beeing the common soldier and farmer and to rise to greates. Now there are OCC/RCC that are larger than life.

(By the way in real life a RPG is not verry effetive and whould not counter a Attack hellecopter.)

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:16 am**

The system is still very useable. It requires either a new edition or a huge streamlining. That and anyone who writes a future book with a eventual new edition or streamlining have to use the system. Not toss something new in the game just for the sake of it being cool. Then finding out later that occ/rcc abc is broken. Too many instances of that in rifts. If it means losing a few fans that se nothing wrong with the system so be it. With Gurps, Hero System, Savage worlds and unisystem and many others. The current system has too much competition to remain as is. There will not be a sudden increase in older fans coming back to use the system as is. If anyitnh from what I can see outside of these boards it's the opposite. To think otherwise is a pipe dream.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:31 am**

I was thinking about how the melee vs ranged attacks last night.

How bout this?

Everybody gets 5 attacks per melee. Period dot. Then define what costs an attack. Opening a door, drawing a weapon, shooting a gun, dodging, speaking a line and so on.

"But 5 attacks in 15 seconds? I can so much more with my extensive shooting/boxing/video gaming/Ultimate Fighting experience!"

Hold on, I'm not done. Now each skill would have "combos" assigned to them. You earn combos based off of how high your skill becomes. Lets say for example the boxing skill, which give the character the ability to primarily fight with his fists, assigns a combo every level of experience. So at level one, you create a combo that effectively allows the character to jab/cross. If the jab is successful, then roll to strike for the cross. At second level, you can build upon the first combo (giving you 3 strikes for the combo) or start a new string for a second combo. Perhaps this time, you do a Dodge/Jab combo so you can attempt to attack after you make a defensive move as one of your combos.

A particular combo can only be used once per melee round. These combos count as one attack. As your skill levels, your character becomes more adept in boxing, but does not make you shoot a gun faster.

Apply this to Weapon Proficiencies, H2H skills, Weapons Systems, and piloting skills. So WP Handguns at first level allows you to pop off a string of accurate semi automatic fire of two shots for your combo. Second level, make it three, or even a second combo of two shots, or dodge/fire, or fire/reload...whatever.

I'm sure this system is full of holes too. Its just a raw, rough idea I had as I fell asleep last night. I guess this system would suck in the fact you would have to keep up with many different combos per character. GMs and their NPCs would have to track a lot. Thats the downside. Perhaps player characters can be on the combo system, and NPCs be on the more generic system Palladium already uses. Or make the combos every 3 levels instead of every level. I'm basically thinking out loud now. Just wanted to share.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:44 am**

Frankly, the system is old and out dated, and adding a new sourcebook when they can afford it does nothing to codify or organize the system. The fact that I need two copies of the main book or it takes twice as long to make a character is a problem. There also seems to be a sort of elitism that makes Palladium think their products are well done, when, compared to many other gaming systems, they are in fact horribly done. Play testing is obviously not a priority, and the nine thousand different authors all seem to get a free pass to go crazy with stuff. The lack of consistency in the rules just is not a concern for the company...thats why I dont purchase their books any more...they are a mess. Even the "new" edition RUE is chock full of high school yearbook errors, typos, and omissions, and does nothing to really "organize" the rules or make it any more presentable. Hand some one who had never heards of Rifts the main book and tell them to read it on their own and make a toon, give them a week, and see if they dont hand that book back to you like "I am confused...." The reason the system is broken is because they let it be with poor development.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:16 pm**

Jedrious wrote:
Daeglan wrote:Defense rolls are one of the things that slow down combat horribly. set a base target number. 11 or greater hits. If you dodge add your dodge bonus to the target number. Saving a die roll and adjudicating the result saves a lot of time.

NO! Active defenses is one of the staples of the Palladium System, we're not D&D, never will be, stop trying.

Not trying to make it D&D. Active defenses is one of the things that bogs the system down the most. It doubles the amount of time it takes to do a characters turn. That is bad.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:25 pm**

Daeglan wrote:Active defenses is one of the things that bogs the system down the most. It doubles the amount of time it takes to do a characters turn. That is bad.

More importantly, Active Defenses are one of the ways you can get in a "lucky punch."

I like active defenses and in my experience I roll an attack roll and say...

"They hit, roll your defense!" (I generally try keep the result of strikes to myself): This takes about about 2-4 seconds.

Then they choose their defense and roll. If they are just parrying or dodging and not giving it much thought, this takes about 2-4 seconds.

Then I move on to the next person's attack. The only time it takes awhile is when players are pondering which defense they will use.

As I have some experience with White Wolf's DV (Defense Value system) and D&D's 4E's defense system I can say right now that it doesn't REALLY save you any time. I think the mistake that people make was that the "Its faster" argument stems from Old School White Wolf where you had to roll a lot of dice and count them TWICE, which can clog things and slow them down... but if you are just rolling 1D20+X than its really that simple.

Plus, it builds drama and means your players (and NPCs) never end up as invincible supermen. Active defense means that all of a sudden anyone can have a bad day and in my experience that makes the game fun and exciting.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:21 pm**

Discussions of this sort really boil down to:
"what do you mean when you say broken?"
I see broken as the rule does not function as written. (Killer Cyborg, Sureshot, Jaymz, and few others have discussed examples of such in This Thread.
If the rule does not meet your aesthetics but still functions as intended that is not broken.
A lot of the items discussed here in this thread fall under the heading of "rules are not what I want them to be" Not "the rules do not function as written"

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:16 pm**

Personally I never had a problem with the system, most of us old people have at least 20 yrs playing the palladium system, sure time to time something might have to be changed with something new added, but I never had a problem GMing it.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:28 pm**

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Personally I never had a problem with the system, most of us old people have at least 20 yrs playing the palladium system, sure time to time something might have to be changed with something new added, but I never had a problem GMing it.

I used to think the same way until I read KCs thoughts on it in the thread I link above...
He does show that the system as written (when taken from a literalists POV) does in fact have a couple of major breaks to it; Rules that will not function RAW; does that mean they do not function RAI? Most likely not... BUT! How do we determine just what Kevin meant by rule x? we can make an educated guess but that does not mean we are correct.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:37 pm**

OMG! I actually agree 100% with Mech-Viper Prime! These are my sentiments exactly in regard to the system. LOL. Sort of amazed here.

Edited to add the word are. LOL damn phone!

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:39 pm**

Jay05 wrote:OMG! I actually agree 100% with Mech-Viper Prime! These my sentiments exactly in regard to the system. LOL. Sort of amazed here.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:09 pm**

earthhawk wrote:You will never convince anyone who has played the Palladium system for any length of time that their game needs to be fixed. They will come out of the woodworks to tell you that you are wrong with quotations and red lettering. Trust me, I've tried. It's better to leave the 300 remaining fans of the game to their own devices. Hell, some of them are still waiting for phone calls from KS thanking them for participating in the FIRST Megaversal Insider way back in... May 2012? I would just leave it alone and find another game, it's much easier and less stressful.

Awwww, that's a bit unfair. I've been playing PB since 1990...and yeah, there is A LOT that is broken. I think of PB the same way I think of the GURPS setting books...a lot of fluff that I like, but the rules are garbage. Therefore, in the 20+ years I have been gaming I just convert a lot of stuff to other systems and go from there. There is no game in my house that my wife or I GM that there is not a fat stack of house rules that we use. We own over 60 games with different rules systems, but we don't use any of the rules, just the background setting info. The only rules we actually use are Basic Role Playing (from Chaosium) and D20 (from WoTC), and those systems were not "perfect" either so we had to take things from other systems like mental/emotional damage from the new Marvel Heroic Roleplaying or the staged penetration armor system from R. Talsorian Games Cyberpunk, or the mecha construction system from Mekton II. Basically, the more you game, the more discerning you become about what a system should be...and there are not many out of the box systems that will meet your requirements, so all that you have to do is fix the system to make it do what you want to do.

-STS

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:51 pm**

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Personally I never had a problem with the system, most of us old people have at least 20 yrs playing the palladium system, sure time to time something might have to be changed with something new added, but I never had a problem GMing it.
I used to think the same way until I read KCs thoughts on it in the thread I link above...
He does show that the system as written (when taken from a literalists POV) does in fact have a couple of major breaks to it; Rules that will not function RAW; does that mean they do not function RAI? Most likely not... BUT! How do we determine just what Kevin meant by rule x? we can make an educated guess but that does not mean we are correct.

I use Kevin's golden rule you don't like it change it, tweak it to suit the needs of your group and have fun. I bet he would rather hear a story about a group of young and brave adventurers traveling the megaverse, then from a group of folks ask about what he meant in rule 125 and 765. Because I have a feeling someone doesn't really like rule lawyers.

Check out RUE page 294 under tweaking rules

If your group agrees a juicer lifespan is 15 years then the lifespan of a juicer is 15( for nightmask)

Your group decide no you cant teleport in chi- town then you can't, if they decide you can then you can.
No palludium rule is set in stone, just sand, so lets build sand castles for the sand box.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:04 pm**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Daeglan wrote:Active defenses is one of the things that bogs the system down the most. It doubles the amount of time it takes to do a characters turn. That is bad.

More importantly, Active Defenses are one of the ways you can get in a "lucky punch."

I like active defenses and in my experience I roll an attack roll and say...

"They hit, roll your defense!" (I generally try keep the result of strikes to myself): This takes about about 2-4 seconds.

Then they choose their defense and roll. If they are just parrying or dodging and not giving it much thought, this takes about 2-4 seconds.

Then I move on to the next person's attack. The only time it takes awhile is when players are pondering which defense they will use.

As I have some experience with White Wolf's DV (Defense Value system) and D&D's 4E's defense system I can say right now that it doesn't REALLY save you any time. I think the mistake that people make was that the "Its faster" argument stems from Old School White Wolf where you had to roll a lot of dice and count them TWICE, which can clog things and slow them down... but if you are just rolling 1D20+X than its really that simple.

Plus, it builds drama and means your players (and NPCs) never end up as invincible supermen. Active defense means that all of a sudden anyone can have a bad day and in my experience that makes the game fun and exciting.

In my experience that is not 2-4 seconds. It is they roll to hit then the person hit spends time deciding if they want to dodge then rolling the dodge... then looking up on their sheet what their dodge roll is... and so on.
Basically it doubles the time combat takes.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:43 pm**

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Personally I never had a problem with the system, most of us old people have at least 20 yrs playing the palladium system, sure time to time something might have to be changed with something new added, but I never had a problem GMing it.
I used to think the same way until I read KCs thoughts on it in the thread I link above...
He does show that the system as written (when taken from a literalists POV) does in fact have a couple of major breaks to it; Rules that will not function RAW; does that mean they do not function RAI? Most likely not... BUT! How do we determine just what Kevin meant by rule x? we can make an educated guess but that does not mean we are correct.

I use Kevin's golden rule you don't like it change it, tweak it to suit the needs of your group and have fun. I bet he would rather hear a story about a group of young and brave adventurers traveling the megaverse, then from a group of folks ask about what he meant in rule 125 and 765. Because I have a feeling someone doesn't really like rule lawyers.

Check out RUE page 294 under tweaking rules

If your group agrees a juicer lifespan is 15 years then the lifespan of a juicer is 15( for nightmask)

Your group decide no you cant teleport in chi- town then you can't, if they decide you can then you can.
No palludium rule is set in stone, just sand, so lets build sand castles for the sand box.

That works fine if you are used to doing that...
But lets say you picked up Rifts as your very first RPG ever...
The rules as written in places make no sense to some one new just reading them.
Go ahead and try to roll up a character from RUE while following the instructions see how far you get before you are going out side of the system (not out want but need).

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:48 pm**

Damian Magecraft wrote:Go ahead and try to roll up a character from RUE while following the instructions see how far you get before you are going out side of the system (not out want but need).

This has never happened to me? The O.C.C.s in R:UE have all their stuff covered in R:UE as far as I know except for the Juicer's starting armor -- but only because it is a typo and gives them an armor that doesn't exist. :lol:

The only character I've never personally made is the Mind Melter, but I have had two in my game and neither player has come to me with character gen questions?

What do you mean?

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:49 pm**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:Go ahead and try to roll up a character from RUE while following the instructions see how far you get before you are going out side of the system (not out want but need).

This has never happened to me? The O.C.C.s in R:UE have all their stuff covered in R:UE as far as I know except for the Juicer's starting armor -- but only because it is a typo and gives them an armor that doesn't exist.

The only character I've never personally made is the Mind Melter, but I have had two in my game and neither player has come to me with character gen questions?

What do you mean?

Actually go to the character generation section and try to generate a character exactly following the rules as presented, in order.

It isn't actually possible. Killer Cyborg did a great post on it in a different thread. It's pretty hilarious.

Posted: **Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:52 pm**

Daeglan wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:
Daeglan wrote:Active defenses is one of the things that bogs the system down the most. It doubles the amount of time it takes to do a characters turn. That is bad.

More importantly, Active Defenses are one of the ways you can get in a "lucky punch."

I like active defenses and in my experience I roll an attack roll and say...

"They hit, roll your defense!" (I generally try keep the result of strikes to myself): This takes about about 2-4 seconds.

Then they choose their defense and roll. If they are just parrying or dodging and not giving it much thought, this takes about 2-4 seconds.

Then I move on to the next person's attack. The only time it takes awhile is when players are pondering which defense they will use.

As I have some experience with White Wolf's DV (Defense Value system) and D&D's 4E's defense system I can say right now that it doesn't REALLY save you any time. I think the mistake that people make was that the "Its faster" argument stems from Old School White Wolf where you had to roll a lot of dice and count them TWICE, which can clog things and slow them down... but if you are just rolling 1D20+X than its really that simple.

Plus, it builds drama and means your players (and NPCs) never end up as invincible supermen. Active defense means that all of a sudden anyone can have a bad day and in my experience that makes the game fun and exciting.

In my experience that is not 2-4 seconds. It is they roll to hit then the person hit spends time deciding if they want to dodge then rolling the dodge... then looking up on their sheet what their dodge roll is... and so on.
Basically it doubles the time combat takes.

What i find that makes combat take so long is the number of actions per round, really. Most games, you get 1 attack per round, period (those games also generally have passive defense stats and/or simple opposed rolls, as well) - usually, if you get more than one attack, you cant move (like the full attack action in d20) meaning unless a guy is standing there slugging it out with you, you probably dont get more than one attack anyway.

Attacks piling up on attacks is the problem. My only major house-ruling has been along the lines of reducing attack inflation.

Posted: **Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:02 am**

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Daeglan wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:
Daeglan wrote:Active defenses is one of the things that bogs the system down the most. It doubles the amount of time it takes to do a characters turn. That is bad.

More importantly, Active Defenses are one of the ways you can get in a "lucky punch."

I like active defenses and in my experience I roll an attack roll and say...

"They hit, roll your defense!" (I generally try keep the result of strikes to myself): This takes about about 2-4 seconds.

Then they choose their defense and roll. If they are just parrying or dodging and not giving it much thought, this takes about 2-4 seconds.

Then I move on to the next person's attack. The only time it takes awhile is when players are pondering which defense they will use.

As I have some experience with White Wolf's DV (Defense Value system) and D&D's 4E's defense system I can say right now that it doesn't REALLY save you any time. I think the mistake that people make was that the "Its faster" argument stems from Old School White Wolf where you had to roll a lot of dice and count them TWICE, which can clog things and slow them down... but if you are just rolling 1D20+X than its really that simple.

Plus, it builds drama and means your players (and NPCs) never end up as invincible supermen. Active defense means that all of a sudden anyone can have a bad day and in my experience that makes the game fun and exciting.

In my experience that is not 2-4 seconds. It is they roll to hit then the person hit spends time deciding if they want to dodge then rolling the dodge... then looking up on their sheet what their dodge roll is... and so on.
Basically it doubles the time combat takes.

What i find that makes combat take so long is the number of actions per round, really. Most games, you get 1 attack per round, period (those games also generally have passive defense stats and/or simple opposed rolls, as well) - usually, if you get more than one attack, you cant move (like the full attack action in d20) meaning unless a guy is standing there slugging it out with you, you probably dont get more than one attack anyway.

Attacks piling up on attacks is the problem. My only major house-ruling has been along the lines of reducing attack inflation.

Really? I have found its Player indecision on what to do next that slows down combat... (But thats personal experience... YMMV)
Well that and games where the players have "adjusted" the rules for a higher level of complexity...

Posted: **Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:12 am**

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:Go ahead and try to roll up a character from RUE while following the instructions see how far you get before you are going out side of the system (not out want but need).

This has never happened to me? The O.C.C.s in R:UE have all their stuff covered in R:UE as far as I know except for the Juicer's starting armor -- but only because it is a typo and gives them an armor that doesn't exist.

The only character I've never personally made is the Mind Melter, but I have had two in my game and neither player has come to me with character gen questions?

What do you mean?

Actually go to the character generation section and try to generate a character exactly following the rules as presented, in order.

It isn't actually possible. Killer Cyborg did a great post on it in a different thread. It's pretty hilarious.

This is exactly what I mean...
Follow the rules AS WRITTEN in the character generation section...
Let us know exactly how far you get before you are "off book"

Posted: **Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:16 am**

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Daeglan wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:
Daeglan wrote:Active defenses is one of the things that bogs the system down the most. It doubles the amount of time it takes to do a characters turn. That is bad.

More importantly, Active Defenses are one of the ways you can get in a "lucky punch."

I like active defenses and in my experience I roll an attack roll and say...

"They hit, roll your defense!" (I generally try keep the result of strikes to myself): This takes about about 2-4 seconds.

Then they choose their defense and roll. If they are just parrying or dodging and not giving it much thought, this takes about 2-4 seconds.

Then I move on to the next person's attack. The only time it takes awhile is when players are pondering which defense they will use.

As I have some experience with White Wolf's DV (Defense Value system) and D&D's 4E's defense system I can say right now that it doesn't REALLY save you any time. I think the mistake that people make was that the "Its faster" argument stems from Old School White Wolf where you had to roll a lot of dice and count them TWICE, which can clog things and slow them down... but if you are just rolling 1D20+X than its really that simple.

Plus, it builds drama and means your players (and NPCs) never end up as invincible supermen. Active defense means that all of a sudden anyone can have a bad day and in my experience that makes the game fun and exciting.

In my experience that is not 2-4 seconds. It is they roll to hit then the person hit spends time deciding if they want to dodge then rolling the dodge... then looking up on their sheet what their dodge roll is... and so on.
Basically it doubles the time combat takes.

What i find that makes combat take so long is the number of actions per round, really. Most games, you get 1 attack per round, period (those games also generally have passive defense stats and/or simple opposed rolls, as well) - usually, if you get more than one attack, you cant move (like the full attack action in d20) meaning unless a guy is standing there slugging it out with you, you probably dont get more than one attack anyway.

Attacks piling up on attacks is the problem. My only major house-ruling has been along the lines of reducing attack inflation.
Really? I have found its Player indecision on what to do next that slows down combat... (But thats personal experience... YMMV)
Well that and games where the players have "adjusted" the rules for a higher level of complexity...

That is a factor. But the system creates a certain amount of player uncertainty. Should i use an action to dodge? There does not seem to be an inherent you have to beat a certain number so they seem to basically hit unless you dodge. The system does not really handle complex combats very well. It is very geared to one on one combats.

Posted: **Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:20 am**

Damian Magecraft wrote:Really? I have found its Player indecision on what to do next that slows down combat... (But thats personal experience... YMMV)

This is always going to slow down things, but that has nothing to do with the Megaversal System. That is just the nature of people hesitating or considering their options. You'll encounter that in pretty much any game. Whether its the Wizard fumbling through his spell book or a player deciding if he wants to fight or runaway. That is just an inevitable part of gaming. Fortunately, it is rarely an issue for me anymore.

One of my players used to take 25 minutes per action of going back and forth on if he would "attack by swinging with an overhead strike" or "come up with an underhand strike" (No, I am not exaggerating). Needless to say, he was kicked out because he was killing the game and ruining it for the other players because nothing would ever get done.

Posted: **Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:47 am**

Daeglan wrote:That is a factor. But the system creates a certain amount of player uncertainty. Should i use an action to dodge? There does not seem to be an inherent you have to beat a certain number so they seem to basically hit unless you dodge. The system does not really handle complex combats very well. It is very geared to one on one combats.

Agreed, there. The system isn't geared towards handling big fights at all - and multiple combatants vs one defender is ludicrously fatal. My only other major house-rule (after the total rework on attacks per melee) is that when you use a dodge, because it consumes your next action, you are dodging incoming attacks/being evasive for that entire time, so anyone trying to attack you before what would have been your next attack has to beat that dodge roll. Your next attack is then skipped, and if you come under attack again, you can blow your next action to do the same.

It's a pretty major change, all things considered, but it was the only way to make the system not brutally unfair to people who arent adding 4+ attacks per round to their sheet by piloting power armor or a robot.

The system needs an overhaul. I'd offer to do it for free, honestly, just to do it. Until my son started kindergarten this fall, i was the stay at home parent and therefore had tons of free time. I now have even more because he's gone all day at school - and i live 30 minutes away from PB headquarters. But given Kevin's need to micromanage everything and difficulty trusting outside work, it'd be a wasted offer.

What PB really needs is a core "Megaversal Rules" rulebook that has notes on how to adapt the core rules to some specific settings (like notes that in some games you roll an education instead of having your skills defined by your class, etc).

edit:
An example of something that should be added to make the dodging ranged weapons rules not so abusive: "able to see your target" should include seeing them with magical or psionic senses or powers and/or tech sensors. The guy might be 1500 ft away, but if he takes me under fire and i have a sensor that can get a decent bead on him, i can "see" him for purposes of dodging.

Posted: **Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:49 am**

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Personally I never had a problem with the system, most of us old people have at least 20 yrs playing the palladium system, sure time to time something might have to be changed with something new added, but I never had a problem GMing it.
I used to think the same way until I read KCs thoughts on it in the thread I link above...
He does show that the system as written (when taken from a literalists POV) does in fact have a couple of major breaks to it; Rules that will not function RAW; does that mean they do not function RAI? Most likely not... BUT! How do we determine just what Kevin meant by rule x? we can make an educated guess but that does not mean we are correct.

I use Kevin's golden rule you don't like it change it, tweak it to suit the needs of your group and have fun. I bet he would rather hear a story about a group of young and brave adventurers traveling the megaverse, then from a group of folks ask about what he meant in rule 125 and 765. Because I have a feeling someone doesn't really like rule lawyers.

Check out RUE page 294 under tweaking rules

If your group agrees a juicer lifespan is 15 years then the lifespan of a juicer is 15( for nightmask)

Your group decide no you cant teleport in chi- town then you can't, if they decide you can then you can.
No palludium rule is set in stone, just sand, so lets build sand castles for the sand box.
That works fine if you are used to doing that...
But lets say you picked up Rifts as your very first RPG ever...
The rules as written in places make no sense to some one new just reading them.
Go ahead and try to roll up a character from RUE while following the instructions see how far you get before you are going out side of the system (not out want but need).

I never once went out side of the system to make a character in 26 years of playing the palludium system, I move to palludium because the other games has simple character creation.

Posted: **Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:51 am**

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:I never once went out side of the system to make a character in 26 years of playing the palludium system, I move to palludium because the other games has simple character creation.

Trust me, go read KCs other post (he linked it, i believe, above). It is, quite literally, not possible to create your character by exactly following the character creation rules.

Posted: **Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:10 am**

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:I never once went out side of the system to make a character in 26 years of playing the palludium system, I move to palludium because the other games has simple character creation.

Trust me, go read KCs other post (he linked it, i believe, above). It is, quite literally, not possible to create your character by exactly following the character creation rules.

Its not a bad break (a simple re-ordering is all thats needed) but it can be disconcerting to a BRAND NEW PLAYER to RPGs.
Us Old Timers tend to just skim rules to new systems; cause we already "know" how to create a character in an RPG... and there are only so many ways to do that...

Posted: **Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:21 am**

It is not that neccary that the rules are broken as they are not arranged in a clear orginised format, and checked that if you fallow steps as presented that you achieve what is necary. So it is more that it is disorginised than broken. The basic rules of the game are unplayble most people that add house rules do so to make it run better for them or more fun. It is a matter of personal choice.

On actions per combat it does not matter if every one has 1 action or 11. with only 1 action per round for every one it still whould take about as long but whould take more rounds to pass.
If players are beeing undesive and slowing down your combat you could make a gut call rule where they have to deside to dodge attack imedately or not get the chance as there charter was stalled for beeing unable to think what to do quickly. (heck that can happen in real life fights some one freees not known what to do.)

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:30 pm**

Some think its broken, some think its clunky, other are fine with it. I have yet to one game that is perfect and no one complains about something in it. Each person is going to do things different. I love the fact in rifts a 1st level character can kill a 15th level character, people complain character don't get powerful as they gain, a character is only as powerful as his skills and equipment. The most powerful weapon a character can have, is a player using his brain.

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:09 pm**

I fully support a complete re-write of the Palladium system. The settings are excellent, but the rules aren't geared towards over-the-top, cinematic roleplay.
And that 'Golden Rule' has been too abused, in my opinion. "If you don't like it, change it" is an excellent rule, but we as customers shouldn't have to edit the rules to make the system reasonably playable.
It's too out-dated to function in a high-tech setting.

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:58 am**

Back to why I think magic is broken; what about the PPE regeneration rate? For most mages, if you were to drain all of your PPE in one day and you were no where near a ley line, at the rate that PPE regenerates, it could take a couple days to get it all back. And even if you were near a ley line, you would still only cut that time in half. Aside from PPE batteries and stealing PPE from other beings there are no real ways to regain PPE quickly and not every mage has PPE batteries on hand.

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:21 am**

BloodAnjiel wrote:Back to why I think magic is broken; what about the PPE regeneration rate? For most mages, if you were to drain all of your PPE in one day and you were no where near a ley line, at the rate that PPE regenerates, it could take a couple days to get it all back. And even if you were near a ley line, you would still only cut that time in half. Aside from PPE batteries and stealing PPE from other beings there are no real ways to regain PPE quickly and not every mage has PPE batteries on hand.

Mages are supposed to use their brains, conserve their energy.

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:23 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
BloodAnjiel wrote:Back to why I think magic is broken; what about the PPE regeneration rate? For most mages, if you were to drain all of your PPE in one day and you were no where near a ley line, at the rate that PPE regenerates, it could take a couple days to get it all back. And even if you were near a ley line, you would still only cut that time in half. Aside from PPE batteries and stealing PPE from other beings there are no real ways to regain PPE quickly and not every mage has PPE batteries on hand.

Mages are supposed to use their brains, conserve their energy.

Also I have NEVER, NEVER, seen a mage deplete the entirety of the P.P.E. from spell casting. Once--one time--in a game I was playing in a couple of our magic users were struck by a magical curse and lost nearly all their P.P.E. in a single roll but that was specifically a special curse and a lucky (unlucky for us) roll. Besides, they normally can steal P.P.E. or have it offered up, or absolutely worse case scenario make a sacrifice. So, statements like Blood Anjiel's don't hold much water with me. I have made active efforts as a GM to exhaust my player's P.P.E. pools so that their enemies (who were also Practitioners of Magic) could strike that them while they were weak, its basicly impossible unless they're tearing open dimensional fissures or leveling armies with a sweeping gesture from their hand or raising the dead... and I kinda feel like those things should drain the character. :lol:

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:56 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
BloodAnjiel wrote:Back to why I think magic is broken; what about the PPE regeneration rate? For most mages, if you were to drain all of your PPE in one day and you were no where near a ley line, at the rate that PPE regenerates, it could take a couple days to get it all back. And even if you were near a ley line, you would still only cut that time in half. Aside from PPE batteries and stealing PPE from other beings there are no real ways to regain PPE quickly and not every mage has PPE batteries on hand.

Mages are supposed to use their brains, conserve their energy.

So because a mage is out of ppe he did not use his brains? The statement should be "because PPE regeneration is too low RAW, Mages are supposed to use their brains and conserve energy"

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:13 am**

BloodAnjiel wrote:Back to why I think magic is broken; what about the PPE regeneration rate? For most mages, if you were to drain all of your PPE in one day and you were no where near a ley line, at the rate that PPE regenerates, it could take a couple days to get it all back. And even if you were near a ley line, you would still only cut that time in half. Aside from PPE batteries and stealing PPE from other beings there are no real ways to regain PPE quickly and not every mage has PPE batteries on hand.

If you think it's too hard to fill up on PPE, consider the plight of psychics! They can't store what they draw from ley lines, they don't have ISP batteries of any type that I'm aware of, and they can't draw from others (excepting the Mind Bleeder, of course).

I've played magic users almost exclusively since the early days of Rifts (before RUE upgraded ley lines), and I've never found it difficult to manage my PPE resources. Being able to draw PPE from unaware people and animals is a tremendous source of PPE. It is most unfortunate that RUE left out the rules for this.

--flatline

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:52 am**

flatline wrote:
BloodAnjiel wrote:Back to why I think magic is broken; what about the PPE regeneration rate? For most mages, if you were to drain all of your PPE in one day and you were no where near a ley line, at the rate that PPE regenerates, it could take a couple days to get it all back. And even if you were near a ley line, you would still only cut that time in half. Aside from PPE batteries and stealing PPE from other beings there are no real ways to regain PPE quickly and not every mage has PPE batteries on hand.

If you think it's too hard to fill up on PPE, consider the plight of psychics! They can't store what they draw from ley lines, they don't have ISP batteries of any type that I'm aware of, and they can't draw from others (excepting the Mind Bleeder, of course).

I've played magic users almost exclusively since the early days of Rifts (before RUE upgraded ley lines), and I've never found it difficult to manage my PPE resources. Being able to draw PPE from unaware people and animals is a tremendous source of PPE. It is most unfortunate that RUE left out the rules for this.

--flatline

It was an intentional omission. You can no longer siphon magic freely off people. They can resist. Sometimes they'll fail their saves (and animals still have a -4 to save vs magic) but it makes senses. Essentially you're stealing their spirital life essence. People should have SOME defense against that. It's only fair. Even so most people won't make their saves on average.

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:07 am**

Stonefur wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
BloodAnjiel wrote:Back to why I think magic is broken; what about the PPE regeneration rate? For most mages, if you were to drain all of your PPE in one day and you were no where near a ley line, at the rate that PPE regenerates, it could take a couple days to get it all back. And even if you were near a ley line, you would still only cut that time in half. Aside from PPE batteries and stealing PPE from other beings there are no real ways to regain PPE quickly and not every mage has PPE batteries on hand.

Mages are supposed to use their brains, conserve their energy.

So because a mage is out of ppe he did not use his brains?

As a rule, yes.

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:31 pm**

Akashic Soldier wrote:
flatline wrote:
BloodAnjiel wrote:Back to why I think magic is broken; what about the PPE regeneration rate? For most mages, if you were to drain all of your PPE in one day and you were no where near a ley line, at the rate that PPE regenerates, it could take a couple days to get it all back. And even if you were near a ley line, you would still only cut that time in half. Aside from PPE batteries and stealing PPE from other beings there are no real ways to regain PPE quickly and not every mage has PPE batteries on hand.

If you think it's too hard to fill up on PPE, consider the plight of psychics! They can't store what they draw from ley lines, they don't have ISP batteries of any type that I'm aware of, and they can't draw from others (excepting the Mind Bleeder, of course).

I've played magic users almost exclusively since the early days of Rifts (before RUE upgraded ley lines), and I've never found it difficult to manage my PPE resources. Being able to draw PPE from unaware people and animals is a tremendous source of PPE. It is most unfortunate that RUE left out the rules for this.

--flatline

It was an intentional omission.

And you know this how?

--flatline

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:34 pm**

I do not think any mage I ever played ran out of all his PPE. So what if you can't get it all back in day, you are far more flexable then the top game in witch you get all your spells back every day.
1 Unlike other games your level does not limit what level spell you can cast. 2 a level 1 mage can cast 10+ spells in 1 day and not run out of PPE.

To me it is like saying that a fighter does not get all his HP back in 1 day of rest, you are right they can't but they should not have spent them all in the first place.

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:40 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Stonefur wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
BloodAnjiel wrote:Back to why I think magic is broken; what about the PPE regeneration rate? For most mages, if you were to drain all of your PPE in one day and you were no where near a ley line, at the rate that PPE regenerates, it could take a couple days to get it all back. And even if you were near a ley line, you would still only cut that time in half. Aside from PPE batteries and stealing PPE from other beings there are no real ways to regain PPE quickly and not every mage has PPE batteries on hand.

Mages are supposed to use their brains, conserve their energy.

So because a mage is out of ppe he did not use his brains?

As a rule, yes.

Can I get a source on that rule?

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:52 pm**

Stonefur wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Stonefur wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
BloodAnjiel wrote:Back to why I think magic is broken; what about the PPE regeneration rate? For most mages, if you were to drain all of your PPE in one day and you were no where near a ley line, at the rate that PPE regenerates, it could take a couple days to get it all back. And even if you were near a ley line, you would still only cut that time in half. Aside from PPE batteries and stealing PPE from other beings there are no real ways to regain PPE quickly and not every mage has PPE batteries on hand.

Mages are supposed to use their brains, conserve their energy.

So because a mage is out of ppe he did not use his brains?

As a rule, yes.

Can I get a source on that rule?

lol
It's a house rule.
:-D

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:58 pm**

As a rule, yes.

Can I get a source on that rule?

lol
It's a house rule.

Maybe you should present it that way originally then.

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:04 pm**

Stonefur wrote:Maybe you should present it that way originally then.

If you read Book of Magic (right at the start, about all that stuff about being a PoM) than its pretty easy to see how stupid wizards don't live long. Not say to there are not any, but I think it makes sense that stupid PoM's would burn through their P.P.E. faster the same way moronic gunslingers burn through their ammo without thinking or a moments consideration.

Its not a rule--or a house rule--its an opinion and at one time it might have even been considered common sense.

Just because it is not true 100% of the time and there is no room for deviation, does not mean it is any less accurate. Unintelligent Practitioners of Magic will not use their magic as well and as a general rule (which is a turn of phrase to mean "most of the time") they are going to exhaust their mana faster than their intelligent counterpart who should have the wisdom to pace himself.

Posted: **Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:44 pm**

Stonefur wrote:
As a rule, yes.

Can I get a source on that rule?

lol
It's a house rule.

Maybe you should present it that way originally then.

Hm.
I thought you were being playful there, but now it looks like you're being a bit snarky.
So I'll give you a serious answer instead of a playful answer.

In this case, "as a rule" was used in the typical sense, not the literal sense.
It means "usually."

As in, IF one repeatedly finds oneself running short of a precious resource (in this case, PPE), then the most likely explanation is that one is being wasteful, or, at the least, that one is not being as careful with that resource as one should be.
Especially when other people are able to manage their resources better, and do NOT find themselves running out of it regularly, or even semi-regularly.
That's not really a house rule, just a rule of life in general.

But if you want to hear something from the books, try page 248 of Rifts:
This is not a beginner's role-playing game, nor one conducive to hack and slash gaming. Like many of our games, Rifts is a thinking man's game. Perhaps the hostile environment makes it all the more important that one uses his head.

Also, Book of Magic, p. 10:
Being a practitioner of magic, especially a Ley Line Walker, holds tremendous opportunity if the player has the vision to take advantage of it.

And Book of Magic, p. 12:
The PPE cost is deliberately designed to limit the spell casting character, while at the same time giving him the option of doing one really big, flamboyant or important act of magic if it is called for. Depending on the situation, the very decision to work one powerful, PPE costly spell can be very dramatic and gut-wrenching for the player who has to make it...
...It is all a considered and built-in part of the game design to take advantage of "role-playing" and storytelling...

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