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Zamion138 wrote:atlanteans are the cheasy humans, they are everything humans are plus magic tattoos to start and more/better stats, they are pretty and smart and have no failings

Oh they've plenty of failings, much like the Ancients in Stargate: SG1 Atlanteans are quite arrogant and in general incapable of admitting that they're flawed or could be wrong about something. They're also so certain of their racial pride that they're incapable of thinking an Atlantean could work against their own people let alone an entire clan. They're the prideful elf version of a human.

eliakon wrote:I think what the sides here are forgetting is that its all about FUN. Some people like humans, some like 'humans if funny suits' (play an alien but do it like just a different human) and some like aliens (try and play as non-human as the race is). The POINT is that as long as your having fun, there is no WRONG way to play. Its that diversity that is one of the strenghts of RPGs. If we all had the same tastes, and we all had to do things 'the right way' it wouldnt be a game......

Some people forget the point is having fun, and some take it to the point of the TV Trope 'Stop Having Fun, Guys!' where the idea is that if you aren't playing their way you can't be having fun or are having fun the 'wrong' way. Some are simply pointing out what they like for fun, whether it be humans or non-humans or whatever hits their fancy at the time.

Nightmask wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:atlanteans are the cheasy humans, they are everything humans are plus magic tattoos to start and more/better stats, they are pretty and smart and have no failings

Oh they've plenty of failings, much like the Ancients in Stargate: SG1 Atlanteans are quite arrogant and in general incapable of admitting that they're flawed or could be wrong about something. They're also so certain of their racial pride that they're incapable of thinking an Atlantean could work against their own people let alone an entire clan. They're the prideful elf version of a human.

point taken

A character is a character - role-play what you want and leave the rest to others to play. Human or not. Any character can be fun - part of the challenge of role-play is taking on something new and different.

eliakon wrote:I think what the sides here are forgetting is that its all about FUN.

Not everybody agrees with that perspective, especially the following:

The POINT is that as long as your having fun, there is no WRONG way to play.

Because I'm sorry, but if you take your Rifts book, roll up the pages and use them to snort cocaine off of a Thai ladyboy's rump, you're not playing the game right, no matter HOW much fun you're having.
Games consist of more than just having fun.
Fun is only one of many variables and elements in a game.

But that's not even the issue here. The issue here is the idea that "humans are boring," and that if a person is X in real life, then there's no reason to role-play X in the game, as if any connection to the real-world was somehow automatically mundane or worthless.
I can get into playing elves, dwarves, orcs, floppers, or whatever... but none of that means I can't get into playing a normal human.
I'm a normal human in real life, but that doesn't mean that I have much in common with the normal humans of Rifts Earth, nor that I don't have much in common with the non-humans of Rifts Earth.
Playing an Elf Janitor would hit me much closer to home than playing a Human Techno-Wizard.
Playing a human Full Conversion Borg would be more of a stretch of my role-playing abilities than in playing a mutant hamster Mercenary.
Playing a hard-line, racist Coalition Soldier would be more of a test of my ability to put myself into somebody else's shoes than in playing a True Atlantean Temporal Mage who was was a freedom fighter.

So it just seems to me that a knee-jerk reaction of, "I have some similarities to this in real life, so it couldn't be fun to play it in the game" is looking at things from a pretty limited viewpoint.
If the goal is to get away from yourself when you game (and that's not everybody's goal), then you should be able to do that whether or not your character has pointy ears or green skin or whatever.
Especially since 99% of the role-players that I've seen play non-humans basically just play humans with slightly different bodies.
(Which isn't their fault or anything, and isn't even bad- it's just that the human mind is used to how the human mind works, not how alien minds work).

Zamion138 wrote:point taken

Behold, an open-minded person who acknowledges a well-reasoned counter! I salute you, sir. You are the unicorn of message boards.

Hotrod wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:point taken

Behold, an open-minded person who acknowledges a well-reasoned counter! I salute you, sir. You are the unicorn of message boards.

its not my fault I swear, ill start arguing over manuscia just give me a second.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Especially since 99% of the role-players that I've seen play non-humans basically just play humans with slightly different bodies.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Especially since 99% of the role-players that I've seen play non-humans basically just play humans with slightly different bodies.

Let players play whatever characters spark their imagination. And whether or not you disapprove of how they play those characters matters little as long as they and those they play with have a good time.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Especially since 99% of the role-players that I've seen play non-humans basically just play humans with slightly different bodies.

Let players play whatever characters spark their imagination.

No.
Because when I'm running, I've got a game to run, and if the only thing that sparks a player's imagination is playing a Mulka in an adventure written for low-powered characters, that's simply not going to work.
But then, I don't see what your comment has to do with the conversation.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Especially since 99% of the role-players that I've seen play non-humans basically just play humans with slightly different bodies.

Let players play whatever characters spark their imagination.

No.
Because when I'm running, I've got a game to run, and if the only thing that sparks a player's imagination is playing a Mulka in an adventure written for low-powered characters, that's simply not going to work.
But then, I don't see what your comment has to do with the conversation.

It does seem out of place when you remove the rest of the comment and what the comment was responding to. Here's the context:

Flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Especially since 99% of the role-players that I've seen play non-humans basically just play humans with slightly different bodies.

Let players play whatever characters spark their imagination. And whether or not you disapprove of how they play those characters matters little as long as they and those they play with have a good time.

You were passing judgment on 99% of the players you've seen play non-humans. I was offering my opinion in response.

Out of curiosity, how do you know that those players weren't taking their character's race into consideration whilst playing them?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Especially since 99% of the role-players that I've seen play non-humans basically just play humans with slightly different bodies.

Let players play whatever characters spark their imagination.

No.
Because when I'm running, I've got a game to run, and if the only thing that sparks a player's imagination is playing a Mulka in an adventure written for low-powered characters, that's simply not going to work.
But then, I don't see what your comment has to do with the conversation.

It does seem out of place when you remove the rest of the comment and what the comment was responding to. Here's the context:

Flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Especially since 99% of the role-players that I've seen play non-humans basically just play humans with slightly different bodies.

Let players play whatever characters spark their imagination. And whether or not you disapprove of how they play those characters matters little as long as they and those they play with have a good time.

The rest seems just as out of place, so I'm not sure how that helps any.

You were passing judgment on 99% of the players you've seen play non-humans. I was offering my opinion in response.

I don't see the interaction between the two.

Out of curiosity, how do you know that those players weren't taking their character's race into consideration whilst playing them?

Well, assuming that elves are just snobby humans with pointy ears, I suppose I don't.
But I tend to think that's a pretty human-centric way to picture aliens.

1. In Rifts, it's our planet, which I guess we didn't share with other sentients during key parts of our evolutionary history.
2. Meta-gaming reasons exist for us dominating other places, since we can't breed as fast as kittani or certain other species, there are plenty of supernatural creatures that are far more aggressive and smarter and there are plenty of other sentients.
3. Maybe you could blame the True Atlanteans for seeding other dimensions - maybe many got scattered in other times and places and 'devolved' from their high magic acclimation status..

I like the idea of a supremacist True Atlantean giving **** to Elves for being a lesser race for some reason - must be from LOTR

I still stand by my reasoning. Look at the MMO playerbase. The vast majority of players will always play human or near-human character races.

Qev wrote:I still stand by my reasoning. Look at the MMO playerbase. The vast majority of players will always play human or near-human character races.

That's as much because many gamers like a challenge playing a 'weak' character as opposed to a strong one as it is because 'Humans Are Special'.

I have not read all of this thread. I just don't have the time, but just encase no one has brought it up yet...

Adaptability.

If you read a lot of the personalities of the D-Bees you'll find them pigeonholed into specific ways of thinking and thereby, specific ways they can approach problems. Where as humanity are as deserve... as well... as us!

Lets just use Goblins as an example, sure they're natural diggers, miners, and even faerie kind with magic in their blood... but when they see big angry guy kick their father in the face and throw him down the stairs... then EAT what is left of him they respect that guy. They might be of principled alignment but they think (or feel) "Wow, this guy is great! I want to do what he says!"

Its built into them. It might seem strange or alien but remember these aren't humans they're Dimensional Beings; creatures from other worlds with strange and alien ways of thinking!

Even the aforementioned Atlanteans are pigeonholed by their drive to be heroes and a genetic predisposition to hubris. Heck, the Lemurians genetically transformed themselves into a peace-loving people. Does this mean their freedoms are sealed off to them? Well, of course not! But think about this... if thinking doesn't matter, if the way a species approaches its problems and new information is insignificant, than why is disposition listed in practically EVERY R.C.C. and why is it SO important that Baby Dragons are born EMPTY and shaped by the world around them, might it be that such a quality could be... I don't know... rare outside of humanity.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I have not read all of this thread. I just don't have the time, but just encase no one has brought it up yet...

Adaptability.

If you read a lot of the personalities of the D-Bees you'll find them pigeonholed into specific ways of thinking and thereby, specific ways they can approach problems. Where as humanity are as deserve... as well... as us!

Lets just use Goblins as an example, sure they're natural diggers, miners, and even faerie kind with magic in their blood... but when they see big angry guy kick their father in the face and throw him down the stairs... then EAT what is left of him they respect that guy. They might be of principled alignment but they think (or feel) "Wow, this guy is great! I want to do what he says!"

Its built into them. It might seem strange or alien but remember these aren't humans they're Dimensional Beings; creatures from other worlds with strange and alien ways of thinking!

Even the aforementioned Atlanteans are pigeonholed by their drive to be heroes and a genetic predisposition to hubris. Heck, the Lemurians genetically transformed themselves into a peace-loving people. Does this mean their freedoms are sealed off to them? Well, of course not! But think about this... if thinking doesn't matter, if the way a species approaches its problems and new information is insignificant, than why is disposition listed in practically EVERY R.C.C. and why is it SO important that Baby Dragons are born EMPTY and shaped by the world around them, might it be that such a quality could be... I don't know... rare outside of humanity.

You left out that humans cheat...We don't have MDC. So we build armor. We don't have natural MDC weapons so we build guns and power armor. We can't run fast. So we build cars and trains. We can't swim far so we build boats and ships. we can't fly so we build planes. And so on. We cheat.

Humans also have the advantage of potentially extraordinary stats on the order of 5d6 in everything. It makes them the most variable race in the Palladium megaverse. Unless one were to exterminate humans mercilessly, they'd be able to adapt to almost any environment that is not inherently endemic to their existence over time.

Hotrod wrote:So I was browsing through Phase World, and a thought struck me. In the megaversal system of Palladium, the deck is heavily stacked against the normal human. They have no intrinsic powers, no special abilities, and no special aptitudes.

Humans have a lot of doors open to them. They can learn many powers (magic, psionics) and can compensate with technology and skills for what they inherently lack.

Hotrod wrote:They get no mega-damage capacity, no natural AR, and no bonus SDC.

This matters less when you build yourself armor.

Hotrod wrote:They can't see in the dark.

Doesn't matter so much when you can build yourself night vision goggles, lighting, or have psionics/magic to do it.

Hotrod wrote:Humans breed slowly, with great difficulty

Compared to whom? If you can point out an example of a species who breed faster and easier we can do comparisons between abilities.

Hotrod wrote:they take a long time to reach maturity (compared to, say, Gargoyles).

Gargoyles are very big. While they grow fast, think of how much food it takes them to do that.

Hotrod wrote:They also don't live long.

In times of stress, nature will probably favour short-lived fast-breeders like humans over long-lived slow-breeders like elves.

Hotrod wrote:Despite this, we see humans in every dimension, often in positions of great power and influence. What's their secret?

Natural selection. The CS is right. We are superior.

Zamion138 wrote:We are one of the older races out there and have vast histories as well.

Are we? I thought humanity (in PF) was one of the newer races. Ogres are our ancestors and guys like Elves/Dwarves are ancient.

Johnnycat93 wrote:If you take the side of every super villain ever then humanity is more akin to a cancer or a horde of rats and is just stupidly difficult to kill off for good.

Pretty sure most super-villains lack this outlook. I'd expect this from nature-lovers like Poison Ivy or R'as al Ghul perhaps.

If fighting for nature, it is arguable whether or not these are villains or just people with different priorities defending a different populace. Sub-Mariner and Aqua-Man are just fighting the evil polluting aliens after all.

wyrmraker wrote:humans spread throughout the galaxy would be that much worse in their capacity for violence in the name of 'survival of the species'.

The CCW kinda exists as a contradiction of this. Guess those Noro really help keep things smoothed out.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Any CS patrol that stops an ATV full of people may let random Dbees go by, but if there's a magic user in the party, you're pooched. Dog boys can sniff you out in a moment. Same with a hatchling or a lot of other supernatural creatures.

Assuming a dog boy or psi-stalker is in the patrol, of course.

I've also never found the rules very clear on dog/stalker ability to distinguish scents. The ability to smell supernatural is listed as a distinct ability so presumably they could tell those apart. But smell magic/psi is listed as a single ability.

Who is to say they have separate scents? The way the power is worded, they may smell magic or psi as a single 'kind of scent' and not inherently be able to tell the smell of magic and the smell of psi apart. It may take additional investigative skills to puzzle that out, such as 'see aura' (which alter aura can avoid)

flatline wrote:I don't ever remember needing to cross through CS territory to get to the other side, but I don't think it would have caused us much concern. Having access to things like Teleport:Superior, Dimensional Portal, and Circle of Travel make short work of such things

A fortunate group, as most groups don't have ready access to such things.

wyrmraker wrote:North America was covered in several feet of ash, and the skies were ashen for years.

This is news to me, where's this mentioned in Rifts again? Or is it mentioned in Chaos earth?

I can only figure that since we were in a 'Golden Age' that humanity had stockpiled resources and technologies that let enough of us survive this. But then, many DID die, cataclysm and all that.

Hot Rod wrote:What they're capapable of taking a dog and making a soldier of it, and you think they don't have secret clone faculties pumping out CS Grunts by the hundreds (fully grown)? That's the only way they's amass that kind of troops without spending ridiculous amounts of time patrolling farmland to support the cities...

The CS does patrol farmlands though. That, and do business with farmers. This is mentioned.

Not that humans aren't being cloned (Desmond Bradford has his projects) but that's not primarily where they come from. Also keep in mind that many humans from all over sign up for the army to gain citizenship.

cornholioprime wrote:not that much of a market out there in the wider world for "no humans here!" fictional media.

Redwall? Warriors? -Insert furry series- Sonic and TMNT are almost candidates considering their overall focus.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:why is the true atlantian innately more interesting?

Magic swords and inherently being the target of a genocide?

Daeglan wrote:I play a human in real life. I role play to escape real life.

I play a male in real life. So to escape reality, I must then only play females.

Also since I play a living creature IRL, I must only roleplay undead, to escape real life.

Zamion138 wrote:temporal raiders only teach their magic to humans

It's not THAT exclusive. Excerpt: "other races may be taught the magic but this is even less common and more likely the result of a human mage teaching an apprentice"

What this means is in over 50% of cases of D-bee Temporal Wizards/Warriors, the teacher is a human, not a Raider.

The TW OCC also says "in most instances (70%) the temporal wizard can only learn these mystic secrets from the demonic temporal raider"

We can take this to mean that 70% of wizards are taught directly, 30% by other wizards. That 30% will account for a LOT of d-bee wizards though.

Akashic Soldier wrote: Lemurians genetically transformed themselves into a peace-loving people. Does this mean their freedoms are sealed off to them? Well, of course not!

Dunno if I agree. If you're too strongly programmed (either for peace or war) to the point where you can't make both choices, there is arguably some kind of free will dilemma. Just look at the Bioroids in the 'Appleseed' manga series, they're genetically engineered to serve humans and have dilemmas about free will due to that.

Bill wrote:Humans also have the advantage of potentially extraordinary stats on the order of 5d6 in everything. It makes them the most variable race in the Palladium megaverse.

Doesn't any species with '3d6' get that? Presumably all 2d6 are also potentially 4d6. One would think that the 4d6ers could get at least 1 bonus d6.

Tor wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:not that much of a market out there in the wider world for "no humans here!" fictional media.

Redwall? Warriors? -Insert furry series- Sonic and TMNT are almost candidates considering their overall focus.

OBVIOUSLY, you can find SOME completely or nearly completely human-free fictional settings out there.

I would argue that that doesn't apply to MOST of the fictional universe, however, where Humans aren't dominant or at the very least "intrinsic" or "central" to the setting.


In real life, if there is other intelligent life out there, we are probably tiny tiny tiny fish in a REALLY big aquarium -and we'll be lucky not to be turned into pets...or slaves...or food.
But in fiction, we can as a species indulge in the (probable) fiction that we're the best thing ever, anywhere, and the rest of the intelligent species of the megaverse just can't get things done without us.

i would point out most of the anthromorphic comic, TV show, and Movie examples are examples of "fuzzy humans"..they may look like animals, but they usually behave like humans. sometimes this is just personality (the recent my little pony stuff, some of the dinosaur related stuff, etc) or in all but appearance (most of the Anthromorphic stuff like Disney and Warner Brothers used to put out, as well as 985 of the furry community). some animal traits may get tossed in for comedic value, but generally it's the same principle as the "rubber forehead aliens" of most scifi..

I see you point tor, on my post part. But with human tw's being the teachers of dbees I just don't see them wanting to help some ultra Nobel, ultra good person gain the knowledge that's so closely guarded. They were picked by temp raiders presumably for having at least similar outlooks on life.
I think at best anarchist is what your getting out of a temporal warrior Mage and raider usually

cornholioprime wrote:In real life, if there is other intelligent life out there, we are probably tiny tiny tiny fish in a REALLY big aquarium -and we'll be lucky not to be turned into pets...or slaves...or food.

I dunno about that. Other intelligent life out there might just as easily be chimp-level in technology and intelligence and complexity. There could be more advanced ones, sure, but I don't know about probably.

cornholioprime wrote:But in fiction, we can as a species indulge in the (probable) fiction that we're the best thing ever, anywhere, and the rest of the intelligent species of the megaverse just can't get things done without us.

Unless you're Lovecraft.

glitterboy2098 wrote:most of the anthromorphic comic, TV show, and Movie examples are examples of "fuzzy humans"..they may look like animals, but they usually behave like humans.

Like what? Using technology? Becoming bipedal? Obviously EVERY 'anthropomorphic' thing is going to have fuzzy humanity, but this is usually just so we can understand and relate to their struggles. In popular 3d movies like 'Ants' or 'Ice age' they often keep animal form and do animal things and the humanlike stuff is limited to the language they communicate with.

glitterboy2098 wrote:sometimes this is just personality (the recent my little pony stuff)

Humanity doesn't have a monopoly on racing, being nice to animals, designing fashion, throwing parties, studying books, or baking apple pies. Our impulse to define this as 'human' is based only on our assumption we'd be the only ones capable of it.

glitterboy2098 wrote:all but appearance (most of the Anthromorphic stuff like Disney and Warner Brothers used to put out, as well as 985 of the furry community).

Appearance doesn't matter so much since this is usually done for better expressionism. Would rather look solely at what they're doing and not how they're depicted so that they can emote better.

Tor wrote:

Bill wrote:Humans also have the advantage of potentially extraordinary stats on the order of 5d6 in everything. It makes them the most variable race in the Palladium megaverse.

Doesn't any species with '3d6' get that? Presumably all 2d6 are also potentially 4d6. One would think that the 4d6ers could get at least 1 bonus d6.

Humans are the only species that possesses that potential for every stat. Anyway, the 2d6 exceptional attribute rule doesn't actually appear in RUE. It's a port over from Palladium Fantasy, which also specifically stipulates that attributes rolled on 4+ d6 don't get any exceptional attribute bonus dice. I take it one step further to make humans that much more special and deny exceptional attribute bonus dice if the attribute receives any racial bonus at all; so even a 3d6+1 wouldn't benefit from it.

for the most part I have played humans... no mater what rpg I play.... I like that well they dont have any state boneses they dont have any form of mineses eather in just about any game system I under stand what it is to be humans and playing humans let me expore other parts of the human condition... granted you can also do that with none-humans... I also like the consept of ordanary people doing extrodanary things... my room mate... likes being something more them human and dont mind takeing state hits to do so.... its just a matter of style....

Zamion138 wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:point taken

Behold, an open-minded person who acknowledges a well-reasoned counter! I salute you, sir. You are the unicorn of message boards.

its not my fault I swear, ill start arguing over manuscia just give me a second.

*Minutiae.

...and that's a long 'e' sound at the end, not an 'uh' sound.



/Sub

Tor wrote:The TW OCC also says "in most instances (70%) the temporal wizard can only learn these mystic secrets from the demonic temporal raider"

We can take this to mean that 70% of wizards are taught directly, 30% by other wizards. That 30% will account for a LOT of d-bee wizards though.

This is saying that most who are taught are taught by Temporal Raiders, that the remainder are taught by other means. It does not say the race of those who are taught by temporal wizards are only d-bees. It could be 1/1,000,000th of those 30%. It could be 99.999999% of those 30%.

MickeyKnox wrote:Humans exist because whomever up above said that rolling up a Rifts manuscript and snorting coke off of a Thai Lady's rump was NOT the right way to play the game no matter what anyone else thought.. is just flat out wrong.

It doesn't "consume" the Rifts manual, you could then play an all-nighter without having to deal with the tyranny of bathroom breaks that come from drinking caffeine drinks by the 2 liter, and... you'd have a Thai Lady boy around that you could have roll up a character and join the campaign.

Ah, but his argument was not that snorting coke with the pages and THEN playing was absolutely not playing the game right. It was that ONLY using the pages to snort coke was not playing the game right.

LOL! I read "manuscia" and for the briefest of moments I thought maybe that was something from MadHaven (still haven't gotten around to reading so much as the first page yet) that had to do with the Italian-American styling of New York City. Then I shrugged my "meh, don't understand" shrug and moved on.

Now I find myself laughing at myself.

[bad fake Italian accent]Hey Pete! Go get the manuscia! No...on the right you coglione! Yeh! Dat![/bad fake Italian accent]

I get peevish about such things. People mispronounce words with a Latin origin ending with 'ae' with great regularity and it drives me crazy. The correct pronunciation is with a long 'e' sound, and to see it spelled as if it has an 'uh' sound at the end made me a bit nutso, so I *had* to comment.

/Sub

/Sub

MickeyKnox wrote:Humans exist because whomever up above said that rolling up a Rifts manuscript and snorting coke off of a Thai Lady's rump was NOT the right way to play the game no matter what anyone else thought.. is just flat out wrong.

It doesn't "consume" the Rifts manual, you could then play an all-nighter without having to deal with the tyranny of bathroom breaks that come from drinking caffeine drinks by the 2 liter, and... you'd have a Thai Lady boy around that you could have roll up a character and join the campaign.

Ah, but his argument was not that snorting coke with the pages and THEN playing was absolutely not playing the game right. It was that ONLY using the pages to snort coke was not playing the game right.

Actually it pretty much was a rude and insulting statement that said that my post about 'there is no wrong way to play the game if your all having fun' was wrong and that obviously by doing something that has no connection to the game at all (unless there is an eratta about sniffing cocain of which I am unaware) 'proves' his point. Micky was calling him on his rude and elitist statement

I hope you all realize that "humans are adaptable generalists", "humans are clever", "humans build communities" are all 100% pure science fiction tropes, right?

I mean... humans are adaptable, but that's because we possess general intelligence - like every other sapient, tool-using social species in the multiverse.

Humans exist in Rifts solely by authorial fiat. They would not come through Chaos Earth as a technological civ by any stretch of the imagination. I doubt they'd be completely extinct, but they'd likely be small tribal pockets. XD

Qev wrote:I hope you all realize that "humans are adaptable generalists", "humans are clever", "humans build communities" are all 100% pure science fiction tropes, right?

I mean... humans are adaptable, but that's because we possess general intelligence - like every other sapient, tool-using social species in the multiverse.

Humans exist in Rifts solely by authorial fiat. They would not come through Chaos Earth as a technological civ by any stretch of the imagination. I doubt they'd be completely extinct, but they'd likely be small tribal pockets. XD

Well with out a sample of other tool-using social species to compair with I dont know how we rate on the generalist or clever or comunal, or stubborn scale

Of course the main reason humans exist is the same reason everything in the game (or book or anything else for that matter) because it advances the plot in some way. Asking WHY humans exist is almost as meaningless as asking "why arnt there flying monkeys?" or "why dont witches weigh less than a duck?" When you get down to it Humans exist...because they exist. We can speculate about INuniverse reasons, but any INuniverse speculation will be tempered with "I think" because we dont have a large number of multiverses to observe multiple comings of the rifts

eliakon wrote:Actually it pretty much was a rude and insulting statement that said that my post about 'there is no wrong way to play the game if your all having fun' was wrong and that obviously by doing something that has no connection to the game at all (unless there is an eratta about sniffing cocain of which I am unaware) 'proves' his point. Micky was calling him on his rude and elitist statement

If his was rude and insulting for stating his belief, then yours was rude and insulting to those who believe there is a right way to play the game, and he was calling you for your own statement being rude and elitist.

/Sub

mickeyknox77 wrote:Humans exist because whomever up above said that rolling up a Rifts manuscript and snorting coke off of a Thai Lady's rump was NOT the right way to play the game no matter what anyone else thought.. is just flat out wrong.

THAT is perhaps the most unusual explanation for the existence of humans that I have ever heard.
"Some guy on a forum was wrong about something, so.... Poof!"

eliakon wrote:

MickeyKnox wrote:Humans exist because whomever up above said that rolling up a Rifts manuscript and snorting coke off of a Thai Lady's rump was NOT the right way to play the game no matter what anyone else thought.. is just flat out wrong.

It doesn't "consume" the Rifts manual, you could then play an all-nighter without having to deal with the tyranny of bathroom breaks that come from drinking caffeine drinks by the 2 liter, and... you'd have a Thai Lady boy around that you could have roll up a character and join the campaign.

Ah, but his argument was not that snorting coke with the pages and THEN playing was absolutely not playing the game right. It was that ONLY using the pages to snort coke was not playing the game right.

Actually it pretty much was a rude and insulting statement that said that my post about 'there is no wrong way to play the game if your all having fun' was wrong and that obviously by doing something that has no connection to the game at all (unless there is an eratta about sniffing cocain of which I am unaware) 'proves' his point.

Because if "having fun" is the only standard for "playing the game right," then the situation I described would be somebody playing the game right.

Of course, if actual understanding and adherence to the rules or spirit of the game were somehow more important than just having fun, THEN the scenario I described wouldn't constitute "playing the game right."

But we all know that it's all about the fun. Not role-playing, not strategy, not the rules of the game.... just havin' a lot of fun.
FUN is the end-all, be-all.
Right?

Err... right. So, to sum up:

Humans exist because we hare the possibility to be awesome in any attribute, because we cheat (adapt), and because it makes the game more interesting to human players. Also, we created Babylon 5, which has some really good writing, though I prefer the dialogue centered around G'Kar's spiritual awakening. Maybe I'd be better as a Narn? Or a Vorlon? Who am I?

Also, humans exist because most other species are simply spinoffs or 'fuzzy' or tweaked humans. This makes the other species alternately cool and un-cool, depending on one's perspective. And cool, of course, is what drives this game.

Good answers, everyone.

Hotrod wrote:Err... right. So, to sum up:

Humans exist because we hare the possibility to be awesome in any attribute, because we cheat (adapt), and because it makes the game more interesting to human players. Also, we created Babylon 5, which has some really good writing, though I prefer the dialogue centered around G'Kar's spiritual awakening. Maybe I'd be better as a Narn? Or a Vorlon? Who am I?

Also, humans exist because most other species are simply spinoffs or 'fuzzy' or tweaked humans. This makes the other species alternately cool and un-cool, depending on one's perspective. And cool, of course, is what drives this game.

Good answers, everyone.

Also:
1. Inertia.
It's our planet. We had a huge civilization with amazing technology, and there are millions of us still on Earth, with a lot of the same amazing technology. Most of the other races coming in may have mega-damage, or BE mega-damage, but they don't have power armor and missiles, certainly not in our numbers.
2. Versatility. Humans can be juicers, but most other races can't. Humans can be mages, but a lot of other races can not. Humans can be psychics, but a lot of other races can not. Humans can have super powers, but a lot of other races can not.

Killer Cyborg wrote:But we all know that it's all about the fun. Not role-playing, not strategy, not the rules of the game.... just havin' a lot of fun.
FUN is the end-all, be-all.
Right?

Absolutely. If you're not having fun, why are you playing the game? Of course, what is fun for one group might not be fun for another, so rather than trying to decide what might be fun for the largest amount of people, perhaps we should instead focus on a simpler corrolary: what parts of the game aren't fun for anybody?

Having to flip through a dozen books to find a rule is an example of a universal annoyance. Having a single well organized book that contains all the rules and has a good index to help you look things up quickly would go a long way towards improving the gaming experience for everybody.

Even if it doesn't actually fix anything.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:But we all know that it's all about the fun. Not role-playing, not strategy, not the rules of the game.... just havin' a lot of fun.
FUN is the end-all, be-all.
Right?

Absolutely. If you're not having fun, why are you playing the game?

Wrong question.
The question is, "is it possible to play the game well if you are not having fun?"

And the answer is, "Yes."

Which means that that holding up fun as THE standard does not work.

Of course, what is fun for one group might not be fun for another, so rather than trying to decide what might be fun for the largest amount of people, perhaps we should instead focus on a simpler corrolary: what parts of the game aren't fun for anybody?

Having to flip through a dozen books to find a rule is an example of a universal annoyance. Having a single well organized book that contains all the rules and has a good index to help you look things up quickly would go a long way towards improving the gaming experience for everybody.

Even if it doesn't actually fix anything.

--flatline

Agreed.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also:
1. Inertia.
It's our planet. We had a huge civilization with amazing technology, and there are millions of us still on Earth, with a lot of the same amazing technology. Most of the other races coming in may have mega-damage, or BE mega-damage, but they don't have power armor and missiles, certainly not in our numbers.
2. Versatility. Humans can be juicers, but most other races can't. Humans can be mages, but a lot of other races can not. Humans can be psychics, but a lot of other races can not. Humans can have super powers, but a lot of other races can not.

I thought virtually any race could be juicers of one sort or another. Brodkil and Gargoyles can be Maxi-Killers, for example.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also:
1. Inertia.
It's our planet. We had a huge civilization with amazing technology, and there are millions of us still on Earth, with a lot of the same amazing technology. Most of the other races coming in may have mega-damage, or BE mega-damage, but they don't have power armor and missiles, certainly not in our numbers.
2. Versatility. Humans can be juicers, but most other races can't. Humans can be mages, but a lot of other races can not. Humans can be psychics, but a lot of other races can not. Humans can have super powers, but a lot of other races can not.

I thought virtually any race could be juicers of one sort or another. Brodkil and Gargoyles can be Maxi-Killers, for example.

/Sub

Not the juicers I was talking about.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:But we all know that it's all about the fun. Not role-playing, not strategy, not the rules of the game.... just havin' a lot of fun.
FUN is the end-all, be-all.
Right?

Absolutely. If you're not having fun, why are you playing the game?

Wrong question.
The question is, "is it possible to play the game well if you are not having fun?"

And the answer is, "Yes."

Which means that that holding up fun as THE standard does not work.

Of course, what is fun for one group might not be fun for another, so rather than trying to decide what might be fun for the largest amount of people, perhaps we should instead focus on a simpler corrolary: what parts of the game aren't fun for anybody?

Having to flip through a dozen books to find a rule is an example of a universal annoyance. Having a single well organized book that contains all the rules and has a good index to help you look things up quickly would go a long way towards improving the gaming experience for everybody.

Even if it doesn't actually fix anything.

--flatline

Agreed.

AND the 'purpose' of that non-fun game is? Really I would say that the POINT of a HOBBY is to have fun. The way that fun handled can vary, but RPGs are NOT 'serious business' where you have to do it 'right' or the RPG police will drag you away.

eliakon wrote: AND the 'purpose' of that non-fun game is?

Same as the purpose of any game; they're a mechanism we've evolved in order to sharpen our survival skills.

Really I would say that the POINT of a HOBBY is to have fun.

It's semantics.
The point that most people have in having a hobby is to have fun.
But that's not necessarily the point of hobbies existing.
Also, it's not necessarily the only reason why somebody might indulge in a hobby.

The way that fun handled can vary, but RPGs are NOT 'serious business' where you have to do it 'right' or the RPG police will drag you away.

Never said that they were.
All I said was that "having fun" is not a standard for "doing it right."

Of course, we're pretty far off topic at this point, so we should probably get back on track as to the actual question of the thread.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote: AND the 'purpose' of that non-fun game is?

Same as the purpose of any game; they're a mechanism we've evolved in order to sharpen our survival skills.

Really I would say that the POINT of a HOBBY is to have fun.

It's semantics.
The point that most people have in having a hobby is to have fun.
But that's not necessarily the point of hobbies existing.
Also, it's not necessarily the only reason why somebody might indulge in a hobby.

The way that fun handled can vary, but RPGs are NOT 'serious business' where you have to do it 'right' or the RPG police will drag you away.

Never said that they were.
All I said was that "having fun" is not a standard for "doing it right."

Of course, we're pretty far off topic at this point, so we should probably get back on track as to the actual question of the thread.

Considering your love for 'anything labeled a rule is the RULES' then having fun is a basic rule of Rifts. (rule zero, game masters job on pg277, et mutiple cetera) So unless your houseruling it away yes having fun is one of the rules of rifts and is required to 'do it right'

But humans exist perhaps because? They are fun? THey allow for the writer to not have to create an entire sociaty of aliens, with alien motiviations for everyrhting. Just add some different races to the human mix and voilla

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:All I said was that "having fun" is not a standard for "doing it right."

Of course, we're pretty far off topic at this point, so we should probably get back on track as to the actual question of the thread.

Considering your love for 'anything labeled a rule is the RULES' then having fun is a basic rule of Rifts. (rule zero, game masters job on pg277, et mutiple cetera) So unless your houseruling it away yes having fun is one of the rules of rifts and is required to 'do it right'

1. You're referring to "GMs should try to be fair and run a fun game?"
Because "GMs should try to... run a fun game" is hardly the standard to hold up for running a game right.
"Should try" is NOT a necessary qualifier. It's something that you should try... not something that you MUST DO.

2. You're changing the goalposts. Your initial claims were:
-"its all about FUN."
And
-"as long as your having fun, there is no WRONG way to play."

NOW you're saying, "having fun is one of the rules, and is required to do it right."
You see the difference there?
You've gone from holding up "having fun" as THE only necessary component to doing it right, from claiming that as long as you're doing that ONE thing, having fun, then there is no WRONG way to play.

If you want to claim that "try to have fun" is essentially one of the rules of the game, that's cool.
I'm fine with that.

But that's far cry from claiming that it's the only thing necessary in order to play the game correctly, which was the claim that I took issue with.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:All I said was that "having fun" is not a standard for "doing it right."

Of course, we're pretty far off topic at this point, so we should probably get back on track as to the actual question of the thread.

Considering your love for 'anything labeled a rule is the RULES' then having fun is a basic rule of Rifts. (rule zero, game masters job on pg277, et mutiple cetera) So unless your houseruling it away yes having fun is one of the rules of rifts and is required to 'do it right'

1. You're referring to "GMs should try to be fair and run a fun game?"
Because "GMs should try to... run a fun game" is hardly the standard to hold up for running a game right.
"Should try" is NOT a necessary qualifier. It's something that you should try[/y]... not something that you MUST DO.

2. You're changing the goalposts. Your initial claims were:
-"its all about FUN."
And
-"as long as your having fun, there is no WRONG way to play."

NOW you're saying, "having fun is one of the rules, and is required to do it right."
You see the difference there?
You've gone from holding up "having fun" as THE only necessary component to doing it right, from claiming that as long as you're doing that ONE thing, having fun, then [u]there is no WRONG way to play.

If you want to claim that "try to have fun" is essentially one of the rules of the game, that's cool.
I'm fine with that.

But that's far cry from claiming that it's the only thing necessary in order to play the game correctly, which was the claim that I took issue with.

<edited>

Or perhaps I can just decide to refrain from paying attention your posts in the future. My clue should have been that your response to a 'fun is key' comment would be to make a racist and sexist slur.

eliakon wrote:Or perhaps I can just decide to refrain from paying attention your posts in the future.

There's an Ignore feature that's good for that.

My clue should have been that your response to a 'fun is key' comment would be to make a racist and sexist slur.

There was nothing racist nor sexist about my comment.

Could we try and finish off the year without anyone getting reported or given a warning or locking up any more threads please?

eliakon wrote:Considering your love for 'anything labeled a rule is the RULES' then having fun is a basic rule of Rifts. (rule zero, game masters job on pg277, et mutiple cetera) So unless your houseruling it away yes having fun is one of the rules of rifts and is required to 'do it right'

That's not the only requirement though. Simply having fun is insufficient to be said to be playing THIS game. The game is comprised of two things...rules and setting. One must use a significant amount of at least one of them to be correctly said to be playing this game.

But humans exist perhaps because? They are fun? THey allow for the writer to not have to create an entire sociaty of aliens, with alien motiviations for everyrhting. Just add some different races to the human mix and voilla

I'd say they exist because they're the de-facto playable race for any earth-based setting.

/Sub

He was neither racist nor sexist. He was not speaking ill of Thais, nor was he denigrating women or men. Heck, he wasn't even denigrating ladyboys. He was just finding something entirely different from the game under discussion and using it as a basis of comparison.

/Sub

Locked for Review.