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T-Willard wrote:So you are stating that because each OCC has a monthly salary listing, which would pretty much be their starting money, the ENTIRE banking and finance system of North America was still online?

Um, how on EARTH do you get that from my words.

I said NEMA was still active. It was.

You are basing your interpretation of canon on a single line in the OCC crunch, disregarding all of the other information in the Chaos Earth books, despite the impossibility of such a thing.

You said NEMA was gone once the Caldera went up. There is ZERO canonical information that says that.

/Sub

It's far fetched that The Rpublicans seeded the modern societies...yet makes total sense that Jerico Holmes took 10,000 soldiers through the Hivelands...

Seems legit.

OK, for clarification, when I think of NEMA as a whole, and this is what I meant by NEMA was gone, is the entire NEMA. The bases, the support structure, the command structure, the whole nine yards.

NEMA, the US military, the federal government, were gone as soon as the Caldera when up.

Individual units, which were part of NEMA, remained. For many NEMA soldiers, as long as they, as individuals, were alive, NEMA was still there, still protecting civilians, still holding on to civilization. But NEMA, the vast multinational organization, was gone.

And Sub, you were arguing that because the book said they were getting paid a salary, NEMA still existed.

This is not likely to be true, as they are shown giving monthly salaries in Chaos Earth. If they're giving monthly salaries, it means they're not dissolved in a week or two.

This is what you were basing your argument.

I stated:

So, yeah, NEMA died immediately into the Coming of the Rifts, but the PEOPLE didn't.

Which I was unintentionally vague about meaning that NEMA the organization, the massive anti-terrorist, homeland defense, multinational paramilitary force was obliterated just as the Federal Government and the militaries of the United States, Canada, and Mexico were.

Individual units, even whole divisions, survived, but their infrastructure was completely obliterated, the majority of their personnel and equipment was lost, and NEMA basically ceased to exist.

You were arguing that because they were recieving monthly salaries according to the OCC writeups, then NEMA wasn't dissolved in a week or two.

I think we're basically arguing minor semantics. You're stating that NEMA wasn't dissolved, that units and individuals still remained to fight and do their jobs. I'm saying that NEMA as the organizatio nwas destroyed, but units and individuals still remained to fight and do their jobs.

I think we're basically saying the same thing, just misunderstanding each other.

Am I right?

Dr Megaverse wrote:It's far fetched that The Rpublicans seeded the modern societies...yet makes total sense that Jerico Holmes took 10,000 soldiers through the Hivelands...

Seems legit.

Oh God, don't get me started on the "Tolkeen War Campaign" and all of the blunders, illogical crap, stuff that didn't make sense, and things not even a ROTC butterbar would make mistakes doing. I mean, we could start with treating a modernerized military force like a Revolutionary War militia and end with the outright military blunders on all sides and the wrong headed assumptions made throughout the entire series.

T-Willard wrote:OK, for clarification, when I think of NEMA as a whole, and this is what I meant by NEMA was gone, is the entire NEMA. The bases, the support structure, the command structure, the whole nine yards.

NEMA, the US military, the federal government, were gone as soon as the Caldera when up.

Individual units, which were part of NEMA, remained. For many NEMA soldiers, as long as they, as individuals, were alive, NEMA was still there, still protecting civilians, still holding on to civilization. But NEMA, the vast multinational organization, was gone.

And Sub, you were arguing that because the book said they were getting paid a salary, NEMA still existed.

OK - I got out the book again to re-read.

Chaos Earth, page 18 wrote:Canada's parliament is mostly intact, so is their branch of NEMA

That's speaking of January 1, 2099, which is AFTER the Caldera went up.

Chaos Earth, page 19 wrote:NEMA, the Northern Eagle Military Alliance, is probably America's best hope...

...

NEMA is the least affected by desertion.

...

Consequently, even without a High Command to direct them or definitive orders to guide them, NEMA forces hold together extremely well and take immediate action.

...and by the way, even though you were adding to my words to reach the conclusion, I'll give you something else too:

Chaos Earth, page 26 wrote:For the time being, NEMA held cities and communities continue to use the credit system of commerce

NEMA lost NORAD, but Canada's NEMA is mostly intact, and the US NEMA is jacked up, but not gone. Mexico's NEMA? It's gone.

/Sub

Also-
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=112798&hilit=fascism+of+cs+free+quebec

Subjugator wrote:NEMA lost NORAD, but Canada's NEMA is mostly intact, and the US NEMA is jacked up, but not gone. Mexico's NEMA? It's gone.

/Sub

NEMA is an alliance of three countries - that's now gone as you just pointed out, as has T-Willard.

Lt. General Lindsey Sawyer in Rise of Magic page 11 wrote:People are beginning to accept what I've known all along. There is no resurgent government. We're on our own. There won't be a mass rallying of NEMA troops to our side. I think most are dead. Those that survive in places like Manitoba and Quebec are in the same boat we are, and doing all they can to stay alive themselves.

T-Willard wrote:

Dunia wrote:

T-Willard wrote:
Having had experience with the military pay system, the idea that Defense Finance would be able to hand out pay in the face of a global catastrophe makes me laugh. Not to punch the buttons of any finance clerks here, but the system infrastructure itself would be gone. Hell, I went without pay for three months in CONUS due to a computer glitch during peacetime so forgive me if I don't exactly see people's direct deposit hitting after the Cataclysm.

And the pay for the month? I've more or less viewed that as the supplies they have access to, that come down through Supply, or that grateful civilians give them.

A credstick is just a broken glowstick by that time in an apocalypse. A credit card is good for leveling a tripod or shimming a radio, but that's about it.

I believe that N.E.M.A. had that monthly pay as an additional incentive for "When this crisis is over, you will get paid as soon as the government is restored, we estimate this to take 1-2 years so when that day come, N.E.M.A. will pay you what we owe you with "hazardous-combat-payment" as a serious bonus. So until then, we will provide for you as long as you are in the military, but later, you will be compensated richly so you can get the life you want.

That too. There would be a lot of "man, when this is over, I'll have like 6 months of back-pay coming! I'll stay drunk for like a week!" going on in the ranks. Even during the Revolutionary War in the US they kept track of the pay they were owed so that if they won they'd be able to get their back-pay.

Yup the local forces would keep track of what pay was owed and probably even do some kind of script to buy what little extra bits from the commisaries were available. Even when all hell is breaking lose you do everything you can to bring as much stability and normalcy for the troops you can to keep their moral from shattering. Just look at during the original revolution the military was writing script to pay troops and for debts and it largely was not worth the paper it was printed on and would have been worthless had the revolution failed.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:NEMA is an alliance of three countries - that's now gone as you just pointed out, as has T-Willard.

It is not gone, as I quoted directly from the book. Most of Canada's branch of NEMA is fully intact. Much of the USA's branch of NEMA is intact. Mexico's branch is gone.

If the USMC was shut down, would that mean the US military was gone, or would it mean that *PART* of the military was gone? It would be part. The same applies here.

Lt. General Lindsey Sawyer in Rise of Magic page 11 wrote:People are beginning to accept what I've known all along. There is no resurgent government. We're on our own. There won't be a mass rallying of NEMA troops to our side. I think most are dead. Those that survive in places like Manitoba and Quebec are in the same boat we are, and doing all they can to stay alive themselves.

That there won't be a mass rallying of NEMA troops doesn't mean that NEMA isn't there. There is no resurgent US government. Canada's government is largely intact.

You can ignore the facts all you like, but they're stubborn and stay exactly as they are.

/Sub

kaid wrote:Yup the local forces would keep track of what pay was owed and probably even do some kind of script to buy what little extra bits from the commisaries were available. Even when all hell is breaking lose you do everything you can to bring as much stability and normalcy for the troops you can to keep their moral from shattering. Just look at during the original revolution the military was writing script to pay troops and for debts and it largely was not worth the paper it was printed on and would have been worthless had the revolution failed.

According to the books, credits are still used in NEMA governed areas, so the idea of the use of scrip is generally incorrect (though it's possible it's used in the wild - I tend to think barter would be used in such places).

For the others - if NEMA is gone, then it cannot be the best hope for everyone. The book says it is. That means NEMA exists (for the time being).

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:NEMA is an alliance of three countries - that's now gone as you just pointed out, as has T-Willard.

It is not gone, as I quoted directly from the book. Most of Canada's branch of NEMA is fully intact. Much of the USA's branch of NEMA is intact. Mexico's branch is gone.

If the USMC was shut down, would that mean the US military was gone, or would it mean that *PART* of the military was gone? It would be part. The same applies here.

Lt. General Lindsey Sawyer in Rise of Magic page 11 wrote:People are beginning to accept what I've known all along. There is no resurgent government. We're on our own. There won't be a mass rallying of NEMA troops to our side. I think most are dead. Those that survive in places like Manitoba and Quebec are in the same boat we are, and doing all they can to stay alive themselves.

That there won't be a mass rallying of NEMA troops doesn't mean that NEMA isn't there. There is no resurgent US government. Canada's government is largely intact.

You can ignore the facts all you like, but they're stubborn and stay exactly as they are.

/Sub

First - please make up your mind. Either it's

Subjugator wrote:US NEMA is jacked up

or it's

Subjugator wrote:Much of the USA's branch of NEMA is intact

You were right the first time if that helps. US NEMA is jacked up, as per the general herself says. The only thing left of NEMA is pretty much what the general described. Small pockets and enclaves that aren't going to get resupplied anytime soon, because they are all that's left and the vast support network that is needed to support them isn't there. That includes things like skilled workers for factories to make replacement parts (or program robots to do it), raw materials to make those supplies, etc. Sawyer recognizes that and is already having her troops salvage like they are playing Fallout 3.

What it chalks up to, since you mentioned the USMC, is something like "Once a Marine/Neman, always a Marine/Neman" and that's all they have left. They do it out their own personal need to make a difference for good, but other than that there's nothing backing them up.


Also, please show me when the Canada's government got back up and running? If their government is largely intact and their NEMA branch

Subjugator wrote:Most of Canada's branch of NEMA is fully intact

, then it's not much of a post apocalypse game now is it? Here's a hint - check out Rifts Canada page 69.

Subjugator wrote:

kaid wrote:Yup the local forces would keep track of what pay was owed and probably even do some kind of script to buy what little extra bits from the commisaries were available. Even when all hell is breaking lose you do everything you can to bring as much stability and normalcy for the troops you can to keep their moral from shattering. Just look at during the original revolution the military was writing script to pay troops and for debts and it largely was not worth the paper it was printed on and would have been worthless had the revolution failed.

According to the books, credits are still used in NEMA governed areas, so the idea of the use of scrip is generally incorrect (though it's possible it's used in the wild - I tend to think barter would be used in such places).

For the others - if NEMA is gone, then it cannot be the best hope for everyone. The book says it is. That means NEMA exists (for the time being).

/Sub

Credits are still used yes, but I have the impression that it was the author's intent to just make it easy for the player to purchase things. Everyone else was quickly using the barter system as you mentioned. (pg 26 CE)

Your 2nd part I mentioned in my previous post.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:First - please make up your mind. Either it's

Subjugator wrote:US NEMA is jacked up

or it's

Subjugator wrote:Much of the USA's branch of NEMA is intact

No, it isn't.

If I get punched in the face three times, I am jacked up. I am not gone. I'm nowhere NEAR gone. I am jacked up.

It's not either/or. It's 'and.' Luckily for both me and logic, but you don't get to dictate terms.

You were right the first time if that helps. US NEMA is jacked up, as per the general herself says. The only thing left of NEMA is pretty much what the general described. Small pockets and enclaves that aren't going to get resupplied anytime soon, because they are all that's left and the vast support network that is needed to support them isn't there.

Most of the Canadian branch of NEMA is intact. MUCH of American NEMA is intact.

More for you though:

Chaos Earth, page 15 wrote:In North America, the military and NEMA have mobilized and where their forces are obvious, there is some sense of hope, low and order. The new, USA-G10 power armor called Chromium Guardsmen (known to future generations as the "Glitter Boy") are deployed by the thousand. They are walking tanks made of laser reflective chrome serving as highly visible sentinels that bring comfort to the frightened multitudes. As do the Silver Eagle SAMAS power armor, with those from each branch of NEMA painted with the colors of its national flag (USA, Canada, and Mexico).

That is stated in the portion describing the situation after the caldera went up. Thousands of Glitter Boys does not indicate an organization that is 'gone.' Do you think thousands of Glitter Boys does not count as 'much of NEMA'? Even if it is only two thousand (which I doubt, because one would not describe it as 'deployed by the thousand' if so...and it is absolutely not one thousand, since they are deployed by the thousand). How many do you think they had at their peak? Hell, right now we only have about 9,000 tanks. for our entire country. Add in that there are ALSO thousands of SAMAS suits, and you're looking at a pretty damned big force. NEMA is certainly not 'gone.'

That includes things like skilled workers for factories to make replacement parts (or program robots to do it), raw materials to make those supplies, etc. Sawyer recognizes that and is already having her troops salvage like they are playing Fallout 3.

Wrong. They have factories and workers. It's a war of attrition though, and they won't have it forever. This is stated explicitly.

Chaos Earth, page 26 wrote:Furthermore, NEMA forces in the Central parts of North America also, for the moment, retain and defend a large number of manufacturing facilities that enable them to continue to repair and manufacture most goods.

. . .

However, the Apocalypse will burn up resources at an alarming rate and over time (and much more quickly than the heroes fear) the continuing holocaust will result in the destruction of manufacturing plants, defensive positions, equipment, weapons and gear, leading to severe supply shortages and supply line distribution and delivery problems of certain items.

They have it, but they don't have it forever.

What it chalks up to, since you mentioned the USMC, is something like "Once a Marine/Neman, always a Marine/Neman" and that's all they have left. They do it out their own personal need to make a difference for good, but other than that there's nothing backing them up.

They definitely have problems, but they are by no means gone. I'll even say they are on the way out, but they are absolutely NOT gone. What it chalks up to is that you can only reach the conclusions you have by adding to the text and making assumptions about things that are not stated. NEMA is there. It's not happy, but it's there. The chain of command is broken in many areas, but there is a highest officer alive, and that officer has taken charge.

Also, please show me when the Canada's government got back up and running? If their government is largely intact and their NEMA branch

Subjugator wrote:Most of Canada's branch of NEMA is fully intact

, then it's not much of a post apocalypse game now is it? Here's a hint - check out Rifts Canada page 69.

Here's a hint, read the frickin' Chaos Earth book!

Chaos Earth, page 18 wrote:Canada's parliament is mostly intact, so is their branch of NEMA, but they're scrambling to respond to the devastation on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. Mexico is in Shambles. Quakes destroyed the heart of that country. If NEMA remains intact in any capacity, they have their hands full.

Emphasis is mine. Guess what 'remains' means. It means it IS intact right now. That is after the caldera went up as well. This is evidenced by the fact that the volcano is mentioned as having toasted NORAD in the same conversation.

Credits are still used yes, but I have the impression that it was the author's intent to just make it easy for the player to purchase things. Everyone else was quickly using the barter system as you mentioned. (pg 26 CE)

So you have the impression that the intent was to make things other than was directly stated to be the case in the book? What else did they mean but not say? Page 26 of Chaos Earth says that for the time being, they're using credits, but that AS TIME GOES ON, they likely move to barter. Right now, they're still using credits. Since this is also after the caldera went up, and since NEMA has control of certain areas, NEMA cannot be gone. QED.



It's amazing how much some will twist to avoid being wrong...particularly when the books explicitly say their position is incorrect. You can tell me all you like about what you think was 'meant', but I'm telling you what it explicitly says.

/Sub

notafraid2die wrote:Wow. You guys could keep that argument up forever. I feel you are all basically saying the same things, just arguing over presentation.

The fact of the matter is; At some point, during the Dark Age, NEMA indeed ceased to be. The topic was to establish a link, if any, between NEMA and the CS. From what I'm seeing so far, this is probably not the case. Tarn has the Neemans being overrun by the "fourth demon plague", at this point they were wiped out, or more than likely, scattered, and the former military organization ceased to operate. Then sometime after that, Chi-town was established (perhaps by survivors of the fourth demon plague, but probably not, since they have no history of it). Maybe a link exist between NEMA and Free Quebec, but I'm seeing a definite gap between the American version of NEMA and Chi-town.

True NEMA is going to fall, some branches would carry on for a time but will fall in time or change into something else, like what happened to the republicans
Example,
While the main NEMA hq in Mexico might be gone, their would be still units operating outside of Mexico City, now how long they would last is anyone's guess, but over time they would have been wiped out, by whatever was in Mexico during that time.

The Canadian NEMA was still intact, and with a working government, we know even they fell to , to demons , weather or whatever.

The American NEMA still had a force , they are going down just like the rest did to whatever.
End of examples

Chi-town defense force did have glitterboys about 12 of them from the dark ages, so odds are they were rebuilds from other glitterboys, but its hard to say what equipment the chi-town defense force had over 100 years ago, they could have been sitting on a NEMA stockpile of armor weapons and power armor before the war with the FOM started.

Subjugator wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:First - please make up your mind. Either it's

Subjugator wrote:US NEMA is jacked up

or it's

Subjugator wrote:Much of the USA's branch of NEMA is intact

No, it isn't.

If I get punched in the face three times, I am jacked up. I am not gone. I'm nowhere NEAR gone. I am jacked up.

It's not either/or. It's 'and.' Luckily for both me and logic, but you don't get to dictate terms.

You were right the first time if that helps. US NEMA is jacked up, as per the general herself says. The only thing left of NEMA is pretty much what the general described. Small pockets and enclaves that aren't going to get resupplied anytime soon, because they are all that's left and the vast support network that is needed to support them isn't there.

Most of the Canadian branch of NEMA is intact. MUCH of American NEMA is intact.

More for you though:

Chaos Earth, page 15 wrote:In North America, the military and NEMA have mobilized and where their forces are obvious, there is some sense of hope, low and order. The new, USA-G10 power armor called Chromium Guardsmen (known to future generations as the "Glitter Boy") are deployed by the thousand. They are walking tanks made of laser reflective chrome serving as highly visible sentinels that bring comfort to the frightened multitudes. As do the Silver Eagle SAMAS power armor, with those from each branch of NEMA painted with the colors of its national flag (USA, Canada, and Mexico).

That is stated in the portion describing the situation after the caldera went up. Thousands of Glitter Boys does not indicate an organization that is 'gone.' Do you think thousands of Glitter Boys does not count as 'much of NEMA'? Even if it is only two thousand (which I doubt, because one would not describe it as 'deployed by the thousand' if so...and it is absolutely not one thousand, since they are deployed by the thousand). How many do you think they had at their peak? Hell, right now we only have about 9,000 tanks. for our entire country. Add in that there are ALSO thousands of SAMAS suits, and you're looking at a pretty damned big force. NEMA is certainly not 'gone.'

That includes things like skilled workers for factories to make replacement parts (or program robots to do it), raw materials to make those supplies, etc. Sawyer recognizes that and is already having her troops salvage like they are playing Fallout 3.

Wrong. They have factories and workers. It's a war of attrition though, and they won't have it forever. This is stated explicitly.

Chaos Earth, page 26 wrote:Furthermore, NEMA forces in the Central parts of North America also, for the moment, retain and defend a large number of manufacturing facilities that enable them to continue to repair and manufacture most goods.

. . .

However, the Apocalypse will burn up resources at an alarming rate and over time (and much more quickly than the heroes fear) the continuing holocaust will result in the destruction of manufacturing plants, defensive positions, equipment, weapons and gear, leading to severe supply shortages and supply line distribution and delivery problems of certain items.

They have it, but they don't have it forever.

What it chalks up to, since you mentioned the USMC, is something like "Once a Marine/Neman, always a Marine/Neman" and that's all they have left. They do it out their own personal need to make a difference for good, but other than that there's nothing backing them up.

They definitely have problems, but they are by no means gone. I'll even say they are on the way out, but they are absolutely NOT gone. What it chalks up to is that you can only reach the conclusions you have by adding to the text and making assumptions about things that are not stated. NEMA is there. It's not happy, but it's there. The chain of command is broken in many areas, but there is a highest officer alive, and that officer has taken charge.

Also, please show me when the Canada's government got back up and running? If their government is largely intact and their NEMA branch

Subjugator wrote:Most of Canada's branch of NEMA is fully intact

, then it's not much of a post apocalypse game now is it? Here's a hint - check out Rifts Canada page 69.

Here's a hint, read the frickin' Chaos Earth book!

Chaos Earth, page 18 wrote:Canada's parliament is mostly intact, so is their branch of NEMA, but they're scrambling to respond to the devastation on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. Mexico is in Shambles. Quakes destroyed the heart of that country. If NEMA remains intact in any capacity, they have their hands full.

Emphasis is mine. Guess what 'remains' means. It means it IS intact right now. That is after the caldera went up as well. This is evidenced by the fact that the volcano is mentioned as having toasted NORAD in the same conversation.

Credits are still used yes, but I have the impression that it was the author's intent to just make it easy for the player to purchase things. Everyone else was quickly using the barter system as you mentioned. (pg 26 CE)

So you have the impression that the intent was to make things other than was directly stated to be the case in the book? What else did they mean but not say? Page 26 of Chaos Earth says that for the time being, they're using credits, but that AS TIME GOES ON, they likely move to barter. Right now, they're still using credits. Since this is also after the caldera went up, and since NEMA has control of certain areas, NEMA cannot be gone. QED.



It's amazing how much some will twist to avoid being wrong...particularly when the books explicitly say their position is incorrect. You can tell me all you like about what you think was 'meant', but I'm telling you what it explicitly says.

/Sub

Yes it's canon and all that , but remember this is rifts , where ever canon gives you different answers on the same exact thing.

notafraid2die wrote:Wow. You guys could keep that argument up forever. I feel you are all basically saying the same things, just arguing over presentation.

The fact of the matter is; At some point, during the Dark Age, NEMA indeed ceased to be. The topic was to establish a link, if any, between NEMA and the CS. From what I'm seeing so far, this is probably not the case. Tarn has the Neemans being overrun by the "fourth demon plague", at this point they were wiped out, or more than likely, scattered, and the former military organization ceased to operate. Then sometime after that, Chi-town was established (perhaps by survivors of the fourth demon plague, but probably not, since they have no history of it). Maybe a link exist between NEMA and Free Quebec, but I'm seeing a definite gap between the American version of NEMA and Chi-town.

Well I'm stopping it as I see no sense in continuing it.


At any rate, the only link that I can see, is that NEMA established a base in the Chicago area, and this became a human stronghold that has simply lasted the test of a post apocalypse world.

notafraid2die wrote:Wow. You guys could keep that argument up forever. I feel you are all basically saying the same things, just arguing over presentation.

The fact of the matter is; At some point, during the Dark Age, NEMA indeed ceased to be.

Yup. I'm just saying it wasn't temporally close to the caldera going up.

/Sub