Why are all sniper weapons in Rifts Energy based?

[Grell]

Hmm, never heard of a "natural bonus" to strike then.

[Subjugator]

As far as I know, it's the only weapon in the game that grants such a bonus, and it's awesome.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

As far as I know, it's the only weapon in the game that grants such a bonus, and it's awesome.

/Sub

It's something that should be utilized more, but that could very easily be overdone.

[SittingBull]

As far as I know, it's the only weapon in the game that grants such a bonus, and it's awesome.

/Sub

It's something that should be utilized more, but that could very easily be overdone.

Indeed.

[wyrmraker]

Well even with current tech you could get a larger round going much faster, its making the gun able to hold in the extreme preasures, not weigh a ton, not have so much kick it makes the already substantial "kick" and recoil of a 50 seem small.
They make a bolt actaction 40mm rifle, its not a practicle military weapon due to its size, its an upper middle class toy at its price. But to get something quicker than that you start running into preasure issues and weight problems of the weapon so i dont think a propelent issue, an mdc rifle could be packed to shoot might hot with conventional balistic rounds.

Actually, with the advent of MDC materials, machining a firearm to handle those much, much higher pressures would be simplicity. As for recoil...
There are recoil compensators available that make a .308 Winchester round kick like a .22LR. Seriously. Add in multiples compensators, and the recoil becomes manageable.
Another possibility is the 20mm Vulcan round. Some models are a rocket-propelled bullet, all it needs is a ported barrel and an electrical ignitor. Neglible recoil, due to porting down the length of the barrel.
However, something has to be done about a conventional round's propellant. Currently manufactured gunpowder just doesn't have the power (according to PB). But we know next to nothing about most of the ordinary (non-high-energy, non-fringe/wierd tech) technological developments, so we have no idea if a propellant was developed to be advanced enough to damage MD materials.

[Subjugator]

I find myself wondering about guns that combine Gauss effects with chemical propellants.

[wyrmraker]

I find myself wondering about guns that combine Gauss effects with chemical propellants.

Triax 2 had those with the Sharpshooter robot (I think that was the name). A gauss starter with a ramjet round.

[SittingBull]

Actually, with the advent of MDC materials, machining a firearm to handle those much, much higher pressures would be simplicity. As for recoil...
There are recoil compensators available that make a .308 Winchester round kick like a .22LR. Seriously. Add in multiples compensators, and the recoil becomes manageable.
Another possibility is the 20mm Vulcan round. Some models are a rocket-propelled bullet, all it needs is a ported barrel and an electrical ignitor. Neglible recoil, due to porting down the length of the barrel.
However, something has to be done about a conventional round's propellant. Currently manufactured gunpowder just doesn't have the power (according to PB). But we know next to nothing about most of the ordinary (non-high-energy, non-fringe/wierd tech) technological developments, so we have no idea if a propellant was developed to be advanced enough to damage MD materials.[/quote]


Perhaps, in Rifts this may come about (therotically).

[wyrmraker]

Actually, with the advent of MDC materials, machining a firearm to handle those much, much higher pressures would be simplicity. As for recoil...
There are recoil compensators available that make a .308 Winchester round kick like a .22LR. Seriously. Add in multiples compensators, and the recoil becomes manageable.
Another possibility is the 20mm Vulcan round. Some models are a rocket-propelled bullet, all it needs is a ported barrel and an electrical ignitor. Neglible recoil, due to porting down the length of the barrel.
However, something has to be done about a conventional round's propellant. Currently manufactured gunpowder just doesn't have the power (according to PB). But we know next to nothing about most of the ordinary (non-high-energy, non-fringe/wierd tech) technological developments, so we have no idea if a propellant was developed to be advanced enough to damage MD materials.

Perhaps, in Rifts this may come about (therotically).[/quote]
I doubt it. Given how thoroughly rigid the 'vision' of Rifts has been at certain things, I am really not holding my breath for any significant changes in the trends established over the last 20+ years.

[SittingBull]

Actually, with the advent of MDC materials, machining a firearm to handle those much, much higher pressures would be simplicity. As for recoil...
There are recoil compensators available that make a .308 Winchester round kick like a .22LR. Seriously. Add in multiples compensators, and the recoil becomes manageable.
Another possibility is the 20mm Vulcan round. Some models are a rocket-propelled bullet, all it needs is a ported barrel and an electrical ignitor. Neglible recoil, due to porting down the length of the barrel.
However, something has to be done about a conventional round's propellant. Currently manufactured gunpowder just doesn't have the power (according to PB). But we know next to nothing about most of the ordinary (non-high-energy, non-fringe/wierd tech) technological developments, so we have no idea if a propellant was developed to be advanced enough to damage MD materials.

Perhaps, in Rifts this may come about (therotically).

I doubt it. Given how thoroughly rigid the 'vision' of Rifts has been at certain things, I am really not holding my breath for any significant changes in the trends established over the last 20+ years.[/quote]


I partly meant changed by a player, besides be changed by the game makers.

[wyrmraker]

Ohhhh, okay. Yeah, pretty much. My own Rifts GM hates that I know so much about gunsmithing. He claims that it makes things difficult for him.

[SittingBull]

Ohhhh, okay. Yeah, pretty much. My own Rifts GM hates that I know so much about gunsmithing. He claims that it makes things difficult for him.

I have been in your GMs position before. LOL It can be intimidating.

[wyrmraker]

Ohhhh, okay. Yeah, pretty much. My own Rifts GM hates that I know so much about gunsmithing. He claims that it makes things difficult for him.

I have been in your GMs position before. LOL It can be intimidating.

Yeah. I tend to deal with that sort of thing better than he does. But I don't think it's my fault that I studied up on the skills in the books, and he basically refuses to.

[SittingBull]

I understand that too.

[SpiritInterface]

10) Because WP Rifle advances one level faster than WP Energy Rifle

Because leading your target, accounting for bullet drop, and anticipating the wind is so much easier than simply pointing a laser at something.

Palladium, pretty much as a rule, treats weapons stupidly.

--flatline

Well since the Barrett .50 and the NE75H have been deemed by the the members on the forum to be heavy weapons WP Rifle/E-Rifle doesn't matter.

[Zamion138]

i dont know i consider the Barrett wp:rifle myself.
Not heavy.

[SittingBull]

i dont know i consider the Barrett wp:rifle myself.
Not heavy.

I would consider it a heavy (in weight and cumbernes) rifle.

[SpiritInterface]

i dont know i consider the Barrett wp:rifle myself.
Not heavy.

I asked in a poll last month. Over two thirds of the forum felt that based on the size and weight that the NE75H and the Barrett .50 are heavy weapons.

[SittingBull]

I could see it I suppose.

[wyrmraker]

I still disagree with the assessment, based on how they function. But that's me.

[Killer Cyborg]

i dont know i consider the Barrett wp:rifle myself.
Not heavy.

I asked in a poll last month. Over two thirds of the forum felt that based on the size and weight that the NE75H and the Barrett .50 are heavy weapons.

Barret .50, I can see.
NE75H, though, is an energy weapon, so it would either use Energy Rifle or Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons.

[kaid]

I can see the pros and cons of both sides of the equation. Sniping with lasers is silent and invisible, but countered by laser-resistant materials and Impervious to Energy. Bullets make a loud noise and muzzle flash, and have issues with windage, drag, etc (all of which are ignored in PB for convenience), but can be made into different rounds for different effects (hollow-point, APFDS, explosive, etc).

I'm not sure why laser-resistant materials comes up as a flaw. there is all of ONE kind of laser-resistant material, the glitter boy (and variants), and they're pretty effing rare. not to mention they have so much MDC you would never bother trying to snipe them in the first place. a GB has 760 MDC. Would you try sniping through that with your 4d6 laser rifle even if it did normal damage?

Agreed.
While Palladium keeps making VF weapons, there only seems to be ONE kind of target, GB variants.
Which aren't common enough for most people to worry about, and which are powerful enough that using a laser rifle isn't the way to go in any case.

Also if one is truly sniping chances are they are not aiming for power armor they are aiming for infantry. The amount of laser resistant body armor is really really rare pretty much only technowizards or people with impervious to energy would likey be safe. First thing any sniper should learn shoot the mages in the head first. Impervious to energy does not have a terribly long duration so if you hit them hard before they activate it you can potentially take them out in the first shot especially if you catch them out of armor in their camp.

Energy weapons actually would not need to be better than or even actually as good as projectile weapons damage wise they simply need to be close enough. The reason for this is all the upsides you gain from an energy weapon such as no drop/ effectively instantaneous shot speed, invisible and soundless all offer such a huge advantage to a laser for sniping that it would be a pretty no brainer choice.

Now a hardcore sniper may also have a backup projectile weapon just in case he runs into a target that is immune to lasers but given the weird critters in rifts I assume most serious warriors carry a variety of weapon types from kinetic to energy weapons to deal with various dangers.

[Zamion138]

I can see the pros and cons of both sides of the equation. Sniping with lasers is silent and invisible, but countered by laser-resistant materials and Impervious to Energy. Bullets make a loud noise and muzzle flash, and have issues with windage, drag, etc (all of which are ignored in PB for convenience), but can be made into different rounds for different effects (hollow-point, APFDS, explosive, etc).

I'm not sure why laser-resistant materials comes up as a flaw. there is all of ONE kind of laser-resistant material, the glitter boy (and variants), and they're pretty effing rare. not to mention they have so much MDC you would never bother trying to snipe them in the first place. a GB has 760 MDC. Would you try sniping through that with your 4d6 laser rifle even if it did normal damage?

Agreed.
While Palladium keeps making VF weapons, there only seems to be ONE kind of target, GB variants.
Which aren't common enough for most people to worry about, and which are powerful enough that using a laser rifle isn't the way to go in any case.

Also if one is truly sniping chances are they are not aiming for power armor they are aiming for infantry. The amount of laser resistant body armor is really really rare pretty much only technowizards or people with impervious to energy would likey be safe. First thing any sniper should learn shoot the mages in the head first. Impervious to energy does not have a terribly long duration so if you hit them hard before they activate it you can potentially take them out in the first shot especially if you catch them out of armor in their camp.

Energy weapons actually would not need to be better than or even actually as good as projectile weapons damage wise they simply need to be close enough. The reason for this is all the upsides you gain from an energy weapon such as no drop/ effectively instantaneous shot speed, invisible and soundless all offer such a huge advantage to a laser for sniping that it would be a pretty no brainer choice.

Now a hardcore sniper may also have a backup projectile weapon just in case he runs into a target that is immune to lasers but given the weird critters in rifts I assume most serious warriors carry a variety of weapon types from kinetic to energy weapons to deal with various dangers.

Back up rifle in the transport or at base sure but crawling around on your belly with two rifles is silly.
We had a player last time we played a NA rifts game with 4 rifles and he was trying to switch to them in combat I dont think he belived in encumbrance hhehehehe.

[kaid]

I find myself wondering about guns that combine Gauss effects with chemical propellants.

Triax 2 had those with the Sharpshooter robot (I think that was the name). A gauss starter with a ramjet round.

A ramjet like this would need no chemical propellents. Well it does but the propellent is the air itself. Normal ramjets rounds need something to propel them to the speed where the ramjet which basically is just a shaped air funnel that compresses oxygen from the air until it ignites then works like a super fast jet engine. With something like the sharpsooter the rail gun effect is what is propelling it to speed for the ramjet effect to kick in so it likely would still be a solid metallic round no explosives/propellent needed.

One funny thing is ramjet rounds really should have silly range because basically until friction and heat destroys the shot once you get it up to speed as long as it has air it should keep going a LONG time.

[wyrmraker]

I find myself wondering about guns that combine Gauss effects with chemical propellants.

Triax 2 had those with the Sharpshooter robot (I think that was the name). A gauss starter with a ramjet round.

A ramjet like this would need no chemical propellents. Well it does but the propellent is the air itself. Normal ramjets rounds need something to propel them to the speed where the ramjet which basically is just a shaped air funnel that compresses oxygen from the air until it ignites then works like a super fast jet engine. With something like the sharpsooter the rail gun effect is what is propelling it to speed for the ramjet effect to kick in so it likely would still be a solid metallic round no explosives/propellent needed.

One funny thing is ramjet rounds really should have silly range because basically until friction and heat destroys the shot once you get it up to speed as long as it has air it should keep going a LONG time.

Sorry, but you are incorrect on this. A ramjet is a jet engine without a rotary compressor. It still requires fuel. I believe that the ramjet round contains a very miniscule amount of solid fuel, just enough to give it a massive split-second boost. In addition, heat and friction are meaningless when you consider that MD material (such as armor) is rated to much higher temperatures, and a ramjet is specially built for such extremes.
And I was wrong about the Sharpshooter. Now that I have the book in front of me, it uses a chemical propellant with a ramjet round, doing 2d4x10 out to 10,000 feet. Not bad for an 18 foot tall robot.
Although I agree about the range. 500' isn't nearly enough for the standard APRJ round, unless they are referring to the shortness of the barrels on the NG-11S limiting the long-range accuracy.

[SittingBull]

The think I think most people overlook is when sniping, you want the kill shot; much harder to do in Rifts.

[SittingBull]

Perhaps ballistic fire arms will remain back seat until gauss technology miniaturizes it to the size of an M-16. Then maybe...

[SittingBull]

Sniping in Rifts involves the sniper looking for a target with already heavy damage armor; that is a target he could snipe and take out in one shot.

[SittingBull]

2d4x10+20 is low damage? Yes 3D6 or 4D6 is low damage but if your going snipe, then SNIPE.

[SittingBull]

GI Joe rule?

[Zamion138]

GI Joe rule?

If your armor has 5mdc left and you take 12 md, your alive. Your armor not so much. Basicly its a rule making it so to kill with a sniper weapon you have to hit an armored target twice to kill it. No matter how much you deal on the first shot.

Great for keeping pc's alive bad for realism and tactics that involving a one shot on kill idea if you use the rule for npc's as well.

[Talavar]

2d4x10+20 is low damage? Yes 3D6 or 4D6 is low damage but if your going snipe, then SNIPE.

Ah, the NE-75H. Definetely a formidable weapon. Likely one of the top choices for sniping. However there are a few issues, first of which it is not considered a sniping weapon (why, I don' know). Second, as a weapon printed as part of the phase world series it's damage is vastly disproportionate to the normal Rifts setting, and is in better context in it's own setting where standard armor is likely to be accompanied by things like force fields. Third, NE plasma cartridges are less available than e-clips (with the exception of phase world) so independent snipers may pass it up. Fourth, despite it being an almost ideal sniping weapon the likelyhood a common character would get his hands on one is low (again, with the exception of phase world). Fifth, above all it still does not represent the average for what is considered a sniping weapon (and as stated earlier, it is not even considered a sniping weapon) and it definitely does not make sniping in general considerably better.

Its write-up explicitly describes it as a sniping weapon ("a sniper and anti-armor rifle somewhat similar to 20th Century Earth's Barretta .50 caliber rifle;" "much heavier than a standard rifle" (DB2, pg. 54, emphasis mine); people who vote wrong on a forum poll are still just wrong.

The availability of Naruni weapons, ammunition and gear isn't really that problematic in canon Rifts Earth as of 109 PA, and is greatly overstated by some people. There's an official Naruni retail outlet in MercTown, after all, near the western edge of the Magic Zone, and there are flights between MercTown and Northern Gun, the Manistique Imperium, Kingsdale, Lazlo, New Lazlo, and I think some of the other cities in the Magic Zone. If your party/character is competent to travel anywhere in North America, and you have the cash, you should be able to get a hold of both Naruni weapons and ammunition. Now, carrying either through Coalition territory is a bad idea, but so are a ton of other things.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Realistically, if you're actually trying to snipe someone, as in killing them in a single shot, from extreme range, while keeping your position hidden, you wouldn't be targeting them when they are in the field in full body or power armor. That's just long range combat. Doesn't it seem likely that with the technology that exists on Rifts Earth, someone could come up with a man portable laser rifle that maybe only inflicts 1d4 MD, more than enough to kill almost any SDC being in a single shot, but with a range of 10,000ft+ feet? When power isn't a priority, you can focus on fining down the beam and preventing atmospheric attenuation.

Otherwise, if you want to kill someone at extreme range, you would be better off with an obsolete SDC projectile weapon that's been kicking around for more than three centuries.

[SittingBull]

GI Joe rule?

Armor absorbs excess damage from attacks that hit it.

Again go see the medic, lol.

[SittingBull]

Meaning I wouldn't use that rule, thats what I was implying.

[SittingBull]

Just I had never heard about it.

[SittingBull]

Ah, one of those new things they squeezed in and I hadn't noticed.

[Talavar]

2d4x10+20 is low damage? Yes 3D6 or 4D6 is low damage but if your going snipe, then SNIPE.

Ah, the NE-75H. Definetely a formidable weapon. Likely one of the top choices for sniping. However there are a few issues, first of which it is not considered a sniping weapon (why, I don' know). Second, as a weapon printed as part of the phase world series it's damage is vastly disproportionate to the normal Rifts setting, and is in better context in it's own setting where standard armor is likely to be accompanied by things like force fields. Third, NE plasma cartridges are less available than e-clips (with the exception of phase world) so independent snipers may pass it up. Fourth, despite it being an almost ideal sniping weapon the likelyhood a common character would get his hands on one is low (again, with the exception of phase world). Fifth, above all it still does not represent the average for what is considered a sniping weapon (and as stated earlier, it is not even considered a sniping weapon) and it definitely does not make sniping in general considerably better.

Its write-up explicitly describes it as a sniping weapon ("a sniper and anti-armor rifle somewhat similar to 20th Century Earth's
Barretta .50 caliber rifle;"

Herp Derp, guess I missed that

"much heavier than a standard rifle" (DB2, pg. 54, emphasis mine); people who vote wrong on a forum poll are still just wrong.

The availability of Naruni weapons, ammunition and gear isn't really that problematic in canon Rifts Earth as of 109 PA, and is greatly overstated by some people. There's an official Naruni retail outlet in MercTown, after all, near the western edge of the Magic Zone, and there are flights between MercTown and Northern Gun, the Manistique Imperium, Kingsdale, Lazlo, New Lazlo, and I think some of the other cities in the Magic Zone. If your party/character is competent to travel anywhere in North America, and you have the cash, you should be able to get a hold of both Naruni weapons and ammunition. Now, carrying either through Coalition territory is a bad idea, but so are a ton of other things.

There is a Naruni outlet in Merc Town. There is also a NG and a Wilk's outlet in Merc Town. There is not a Naruni Outlet in Chi-Town. There is a NG and a Wilk's Outlet in Chi-Town. There is probably not a Naruni outlet in Kingsdale. There probably is a NG and a Wilk's outlet in Chi-Town.

People also overstate the ability for parties to travel the expanses of the Rifts Earth wilderness and the amount of money any adventurers may be in possession of. I find it doubtful that the player characters would be able to afford hopping on a plane and flying to Merc-Town just to purchase NE Super-Heavy Cartridges (which is the most likely type that the 75H uses) which may not even be in stock ("Rare on Rifts Earth")

No, the players might own a hover or sky cycle, so they can fly themselves there for free in an hour. Or be a shifter (one of the most common magic OCCs), and pop to MercTown any time past the first for ~40 PPE (or just cut out the middle man and go straight to Centre for slightly more). These guns (and to a larger extent Naruni gear in general) are rare-ish, but they aren't rune weapons, or even hand-made TW gear.

[SittingBull]

Ah, one of those new things they squeezed in and I hadn't noticed.

There's a whole lot of it.

Really?

[SittingBull]

Ah, one of those new things they squeezed in and I hadn't noticed.

There's a whole lot of it.

Really?

Yeah like most people skimmed over the new knockdown rules for rail guns and missiles and that a handful of other rules are missing from the book as well.

Never been a rail gun or missile person but I can see it.