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Blue_Lion wrote:Well depending on if you have the old rule book or the new one it they where rolled into the hand to hand skill.

First Printing Rifts Main Book

In PF and HU the hand to hand basic threw martial arts gave you 2 plus the two for beeing alive as did the rifts main book.

No, it doesn't (the new version of PF may, but the original certainly didn't, i have a second printing sitting right here). The original RMB only mentions the "2 attacks for living" in a single place - the cut-and-pasted Psychic combat section taken from Beyond The Supernatural. It isn't mentioned anywhere else in the entire book.

Then in RUE the same skills have 4 because they rolled the two for beeing alive in, for simplicty and to deal with some SN with specific fighting styles, this also is the system in ninas and super spies with the martal arts usaly starting with 3-4 attacks.

Actually, most of the martial arts in N&SS Revised start with 2 (and a few start with only 1). Only some of the very "hard" forms start with 3 or 4... and those usually dont get much in the way of martial arts powers. N&SS Revised may as well be a different system entirely.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote: In PF and HU the hand to hand basic threw martial arts gave you 2 plus the two for being alive as did the rifts main book.

No, it doesn't (the new version of PF may, but the original certainly didn't, i have a second printing sitting right here). The original RMB only mentions the "2 attacks for living" in a single place - the cut-and-pasted Psychic combat section taken from Beyond The Supernatural. It isn't mentioned anywhere else in the entire book.

The PF2 main book does not have any "2 APM for Living". It lists the total how many APM the char gets, absent skill modifiers.
pf2 apm's @ L1...
No h2h: 1
h2h basic: 2
h2h Expert: 2
h2h MA: 2
h2h Assassin: 1

side-note: The PB writers seam to forget that PF2 chars do not get the "2 APM for Living" when creating their NPC's for PF2.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:side-note: The PB writers seam to forget that PF2 chars do not get the "2 APM for Living" when creating their NPC's for PF2.

Probably because the inclusion or exclusion of the +2 attacks for PCs/Heroes is so uneven in the various Palladium systems. It is rather natural to assume it works the same way in all the games, when it doesnt and you wouldn't know that unless you went over them with a fine toothed comb.

Rifts: China 2, Page 19, just before the hand-to-hand forms has this to say:

In the RPG and other books, it states that a character has "TWO attacks per melee to start." However, this does not include the two attacks per round any character with hand to hand training is supposed to start with. Yeah, we know that is confusing, that's why most of these combat lists state that the character starts with THREE or FOUR. So please do NOT add another two to this starting number. Example: A character with Hand-to-Hand: Basic starts with four melee attacks, and as he grows in experience has a total of 5 at level four, 6 at level nine, and 7 at level 15. If the Boxing skill is also taken, the character would have one more than those listed here. Also note that some OCCs and RCCs, like the Juicer and Cyber-Knight, provide additional attacks per melee round and combat bonuses.

Was China 2 before or after the RGMG?

You have to consider it in context. That blurb preceeds a long section detailing advanced Chinese martial arts in which each starts with three or four attacks per melee. Those martial arts are not meant to be added over the two attacks for living, but other martial arts are.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Was China 2 before or after the RGMG?

China 2 was published in 2004. Rifts Game Master Guide was published in 2001. Ergo, after.

Yeah, it seems like it's just saying that these styles have the total starting attacks already listed, so don't add the TAFL, like you would for the original forms, assuming that your copy of the RMB doesn't already include them.

IIRC, there was a similar note in the RGMG.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:P. 290 of HU1, though, has this passage:

The Typical Average Man
One Attack Per Melee
Hit Point: 12, S.D.C.: J2
Attributes vary widely from person to person . Roll 306 for each; 16, 17, or 18 gets the bonus roll and abilities. The most typical man probably has a P.S. of l30r 14 and a high school or one year of college level of education. A hand to hand combat skill will increase the number of attacks per melee to two at first level and higher as designated by the hand to hand skill.

Which indicates that the base from HTH overlaps the base from just being a person, for civilians, anyway.
I'm guessing that HU1 was the first Palladium game where they included the "2 attacks at first level" line in the text of the HTH skills?

I'm still looking through the book.

as I said, the two attacks were for heroes, not for everyone. meaning non-heroic NPCs did not receive the two attacks. so the typical average man, not being a hero, would of course not get the extra two attacks.

It's not just that he doesn't start with 2 attacks; it's that the 1 attack that he DOES start with doesn't stack with the HTH skills.
Which is how things work in Rifts- the base attacks you get from HTH skill aren't added to anything, they're just a new base that overlaps any previous lower base.

in every game you always have 1 attack per melee if you have no HtH skills, and then whatever your HtH says if you do. this is hardly unique to HU. at least it was until RUE expanded the rules for those with no HtH skill with "noncombat actions" per melee and some little advancement.

It IS different from heroes starting with a base of two attacks, and adding that base to the base number for the HTH skill.
Which is why I thought it was worth noting.
For civilians in HU1, it works the same basic way that it does for everybody in the RMB; the bases overlap, not stack.
Meanwhile, it seem that they want Heroes/Villains to stack, not overlap.
Different rules for different characters in the same game.

I see, I had misunderstood what you were saying. we're in agreement then.

Athos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

Sometime around Atlantis.

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Okay.... let's just pretend for the moment that I didn't already post THIS, which already addresses your point:


And let's just take a look at your argument as-is.
You seem to be saying:
a) That the sentences: "All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing."
mean that all characters have a base 2 attacks, and that these attacks are added to the base 2 attacks for HTH skills.
But that's not what it says.
See, when it starts off by saying "all player characters automatically start off with two attacks per melee," that's a direct contradiction of Rifts page 35, where it notes under the "Hand To Hand Combat" entry:
Characters without combat training have only one attack per melee and have NO automatic chance to parry..
So if a character doesn't have any HTH skill, the doesn't have that mythical base two attacks that you're wanting to say gets added to the base attacks of the martial arts.
There is no base two attacks: there is only a base one attack.
IF you have a HTH skill, and that skill is anything other than HTH Assassin, then what happens is your base number of attacks gets raised to Two.
That's why the HTH skill say (Rifts 37):
Two attacks per melee[i] for HTH Basic, and an even more specific [i]two attacks per melee to start for HTH Expert and Martial Arts.
Notice that it doesn't say "PLUS two attacks per melee" or "+2 attacks per melee," or "An additional two attacks that you add to two other attacks," or anything like that.
It simply states that a character who has one of these HTH skills starts with two attacks per melee.
That's the only base two attacks.
If you have no HTH skill, you only have one attack.
If you have Basic, Expert, or Martial Arts, then you start off with 2 attacks.
I know... you're probably thinking, "But what about HTH Assassin!? THAT skill says "one attack per melee" at first level! How's that fit in?"
It doesn't fit in. It was ignored in the passage you quote, because HTH Assassin was supposed to be for Bad Guys, not for PCs.
That's why whenever HTH Assassin is listed as a possible OCC skill, it's usually with the note of "(or Assassin if an evil alignment).

When that passage that you're quoting talks about PCs starting off with two attacks per melee, it's talking about the base two attacks from HTH skills.
That's it. That's all it's referring to.
We know this, because there is no other base 2 attacks. Again, people without HTH skills only have one attack.

Let's read that passage again, and see if it makes sense in the context I'm describing, in the context of assuming that the PCs in question have HTH Basic, Expert, or Martial Arts:

A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee.
Check! Those are the base two that are listed (with no note of adding them to anything, or adding anything to them) under Level One of each of these HTH skill description.
Those two attacks that the characters automatically start off with are the "Two attacks per melee to start" that the skills describe.
"Automatically start off with two attacks" = "Two attacks per melee to start."
Both phrases mean the same thing, and they refer to the same thing.

Now, the next part:
Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing.
Does it make sense to refer to those base attacks from HTH skills in the first sentence, then to follow it with another sentence describing GAINING attacks from HTH skills?
Yes.
Because [u]as you level up[/i], you GAIN attacks per melee.
With HTH Basic, for example, at 4th level, the book says that you get: "+ One Additional Attack Per Melee."
Notice that Plus Sign?
That's an addition.
It's an addition to those two attacks that you start off with.
It's an attack that you have gained, in addition to the two attacks per melee that you had to start.
"Two Attacks Per Melee To Start" at first level, then you GAIN another attack per melee at 4th level (or whenever, depending on which skill you have).
You automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee, as per the 1st level description in your HTH skill, and additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills at later levels.


b) You seem to be saying that PCs get more attacks than NPCs, and that's why absolutely none of the NPCs, or sample characters, or sample combats in the RMB include those extra two attacks.
But read the THIRD sentence in that passage that you quoted at me:
"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

Now compare the first 2 sentences two that third sentence:
All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing.
vs.
A typical non-player character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions.

Other than being more succinct, what exactly is the difference between these two descriptions?
PCs automatically start off with two attacks per melee.
NPCs start off with two attacks per melee.
PCs gain attacks from HTH combat and/or boxing.
NPCs gain attacks from HTH combat and/or boxing.
It's saying the exact same thing.
So where in there is there ANY room for the idea that PCs get any extra attacks that NPCs do NOT get?

And IF the intention was for NPCs to have two less attacks than PCs, then why did the NPCs around the time Atlantis came out start all suddenly getting those extra two attacks?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:side-note: The PB writers seam to forget that PF2 chars do not get the "2 APM for Living" when creating their NPC's for PF2.

Probably because the inclusion or exclusion of the +2 attacks for PCs/Heroes is so uneven in the various Palladium systems. It is rather natural to assume it works the same way in all the games, when it doesn't and you wouldn't know that unless you went over them with a fine toothed comb.

Don't need to go over the PF2 book with a fine tooth comb. It is all there in the Combat section that are no APM for living in PF2. Something even a Newb can realize.
--------------------------------------------
Rifts China
These books were written to be different from the other Rifts books as to be "almost" another setting in themselves. Which would explain the 'going back to basics' text.

Then, since the h2h's in RC2 are based off the MAF in the N&S/MC books it comes to reason that Erick decided to make it explicitly clear that the chars get the TAFL when taking those h2h's.
--------------------------------------------

Athos wrote:Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Note said above quoted from the RMB is from the Psychic Combat section. Which means it can be easily said that the quoted text is only for Psychic combat. This is why there was such fervent "Descussions" about yes/no about TAFL.
This was not corrected till the RGMG.

Athos please include from which section you are quoting from so people can look any quoted text up better.

*yawns*

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Athos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

Sometime around Atlantis.

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Hmm.. given the way that reads...

Im not sure i can go with KC's assertion that it was a cut and pasted remnant from HU - the text is actually changed to reflect Rifts. (Supernatural creatures, etc - stuff not mentioned in the HU:R text). Let me check BtS1 and see if it may be lifted from there.

edit: Yep, it is cut-and-pasted (well, re-used and wax-pressed) from BtS 1, directly. As this is the only referrence to the "All PCs get 2 attacks + H2H skills" in the RMB, i can go along with the "editing mistake" because they just grabbed the blocking from BtS1 and dropped it in unchanged.

further edit:

As HU:R and BtS1 both came after Robotech and before Rifts (pretty sure BtS 1 was before Rifts... have to check) and both of those systems include the "2 attacks for PCs/Heroes" - it is also reasonable to assume that anyone coming to Rifts would assume that since Palladium's system is supposed to be universal and the skill blocking in all the books is identical ('cut and pasted') that all PCs should get the 2 attacks. I know we certain did the first time we cracked open Rifts. It wasnt until later we noticed that most of the stats for NPCs didnt reflect it and then thought to look in the rulebook.

That is pretty much the paragraph that had me and my group playing that way all along. But if you look at the preceding page talking about hand to hand powers and the next few pages that show an example of play the implication is the only attacks you get are the ones from your HTH skill and you do not start with any base ones.

Like the example of the robot pilot getting 2 attacks from HTH martial arts and 2 from power armor elite for a total of 4 attacks and they specify it as 4 attacks total per round.


I think at some point in the development there was some flipping between the two styles in play testing and it just did not get fully cleaned up at the time the book was printed.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:side-note: The PB writers seam to forget that PF2 chars do not get the "2 APM for Living" when creating their NPC's for PF2.

Probably because the inclusion or exclusion of the +2 attacks for PCs/Heroes is so uneven in the various Palladium systems. It is rather natural to assume it works the same way in all the games, when it doesn't and you wouldn't know that unless you went over them with a fine toothed comb.

Don't need to go over the PF2 book with a fine tooth comb. It is all there in the Combat section that are no APM for living in PF2. Something even a Newb can do.
--------------------------------------------
Rifts China
These books were written to be different from the other Rifts books as to be "almost" another setting in themselves. Which would explain the 'going back to basics' text.

Then, since the h2h's in RC2 are based off the MAF in the N&S/MC books it comes to reason that Erick decided to make it explicitly clear that the chars get the TAFL when taking those h2h's.
--------------------------------------------

Athos wrote:Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Note said above quoted from the RMB is from the Psychic Combat section. Which means it can be easily said that the quoted text is only for Psychic combat. This was not corrected till the RGMG.

Athos please include from which section you are quoting from so people can look any quoted text up better.

*yawns*

Except the psychic combat section also says that the amount of attacks per round a psychic can make exactly equals the amount of hand to hand attacks they have and then goes on to give that description of how many attacks a player starts with. So it really is a pretty clear statement for how it should work the only problem being it is also pretty clearly contradicted elsewhere in the book.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Athos wrote:Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Note said above quoted from the RMB is from the Psychic Combat section. Which means it can be easily said that the quoted text is only for Psychic combat. This was not corrected till the RGMG.

Athos please include from which section you are quoting from so people can look any quoted text up better.

*yawns*

If you are not smart enough to see that the section is applicable to the question
at hand, then I am afraid you are too dumb to be educated by my teachings

kaid wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Athos wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

Sometime around Atlantis.

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Hmm.. given the way that reads...

Im not sure i can go with KC's assertion that it was a cut and pasted remnant from HU - the text is actually changed to reflect Rifts. (Supernatural creatures, etc - stuff not mentioned in the HU:R text). Let me check BtS1 and see if it may be lifted from there.

edit: Yep, it is cut-and-pasted (well, re-used and wax-pressed) from BtS 1, directly. As this is the only referrence to the "All PCs get 2 attacks + H2H skills" in the RMB, i can go along with the "editing mistake" because they just grabbed the blocking from BtS1 and dropped it in unchanged.

further edit:

As HU:R and BtS1 both came after Robotech and before Rifts (pretty sure BtS 1 was before Rifts... have to check) and both of those systems include the "2 attacks for PCs/Heroes" - it is also reasonable to assume that anyone coming to Rifts would assume that since Palladium's system is supposed to be universal and the skill blocking in all the books is identical ('cut and pasted') that all PCs should get the 2 attacks. I know we certain did the first time we cracked open Rifts. It wasnt until later we noticed that most of the stats for NPCs didnt reflect it and then thought to look in the rulebook.

That is pretty much the paragraph that had me and my group playing that way all along. But if you look at the preceding page talking about hand to hand powers and the next few pages that show an example of play the implication is the only attacks you get are the ones from your HTH skill and you do not start with any base ones.

Like the example of the robot pilot getting 2 attacks from HTH martial arts and 2 from power armor elite for a total of 4 attacks and they specify it as 4 attacks total per round.


I think at some point in the development there was some flipping between the two styles in play testing and it just did not get fully cleaned up at the time the book was printed.

Trust me, it isn't that complicated. It's not a playtesting thing, or something they went back and forth on. It's copy/paste laziness error.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Trust me, it isn't that complicated. It's not a playtesting thing, or something they went back and forth on. It's copy/paste laziness error.

I wouldn't even call it an error, except for the part where it's assuming that PCs all have one of the HTH skills, and are of Good Alignment.

As you pointed out, it's cut and pasted from BtS.
But BtS doesn't necessarily have the TAFL either; it's all sorts of messed up, with no over-riding pattern.

The only real error that I'm seeing is people reading that passage, and thinking that it's describing something that it's not.

From people who actually played around the time the game (Rifts) was released, or at least early in the setting (like, first couple world books), did anyone play it with the extra 2 attacks back then? Because for myself and my group, we never started it until the GMG came out. We'd kind of noticed it before and thought it might be supposed to be like that, thus my asking if anyone remembered any note in a World Book earlier, but no one I know or played with in the rulebook/conversion book/sourcebook 1 era thought that a basic character with a hand to hand had 4.

Eashamahel wrote:From people who actually played around the time the game (Rifts) was released, or at least early in the setting (like, first couple world books), did anyone play it with the extra 2 attacks back then? Because for myself and my group, we never started it until the GMG came out. We'd kind of noticed it before and thought it might be supposed to be like that, thus my asking if anyone remembered any note in a World Book earlier, but no one I know or played with in the rulebook/conversion book/sourcebook 1 era thought that a basic character with a hand to hand had 4.

We played with the 2AFL simply because we were playing Heroes Unlimited (Revised) extensively prior to the release of Rifts. We simply assumed that, Palladium being a "universal" system, that the 2AFL applied. We didn't even bother to read until a year or two later that it wasn't supposed to be like that. We didn't even read the combat section of Rifts - after all, why should we? We already played Robotech (which the entire High-Tech combat section was cut from) and HU:R, so we knew the system back-to-front; it never occured to us that after adding a new mechanic in their most up to date books (HU:R) prior to Rifts (the 2AFL for PCs/Heros) that they would then go backwards and remove it from Rifts.

Eashamahel wrote:From people who actually played around the time the game (Rifts) was released, or at least early in the setting (like, first couple world books), did anyone play it with the extra 2 attacks back then? Because for myself and my group, we never started it until the GMG came out. We'd kind of noticed it before and thought it might be supposed to be like that, thus my asking if anyone remembered any note in a World Book earlier, but no one I know or played with in the rulebook/conversion book/sourcebook 1 era thought that a basic character with a hand to hand had 4.

Sometime in our second year of playing Rifts, one player did hold up that passage from the psychic combat section and say that he thought that it mean that everybody should start with 4 attacks per melee if they have HTH combat.
I read the passage, looked at the NPCs in the books, and decided that wasn't what it meant, because that was obviously not how the NPCs were made.
(Or the sample combats, etc.)
That was pretty much that.

When we started playing RIfts, we used HU characters from an established campaign so naturally those characters had the 2 attacks for living. As those characters got replaced by actual Rifts characters, we continued to use the 2 attacks for living because that's what we were used to. I don't think it even crossed our minds that it wasn't intended to be that way.

Of course, shortly after that we dropped the idea of attacks per melee entirely...

--flatline

Athos wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Athos wrote:Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Note said above quoted from the RMB is from the Psychic Combat section. Which means it can be easily said that the quoted text is only for Psychic combat. This was not corrected till the RGMG.

Athos please include from which section you are quoting from so people can look any quoted text up better.

*yawns*

If you are not smart enough to see that the section is applicable to the question
at hand, then I am afraid you are too dumb to be educated by my teachings

I have Never played rifts chars without any APM for living. Was pointing out why there were arguments over the Yah or neh of whether of not they TAFL applied to rifts.

Gryphon wrote:How about this though, base line, do you LIKE the +2 APM concept, or would you rather it not apply to Rifts Earth? As a GM, I feel that there are already enough actions going on, and it would shorten Rifts somewhat cumbersome combat system to a degree? What do the rest of you think?

I think that the addition of the TAFL screwed up Rifts in so many ways that the game STILL hasn't recovered.
Animals went from being as fast as an average human, to being 1/2 as fast.
Juicers went from being 2x as fast as an average human to being 50% faster.
Mages went from being able to cast spells as fast as an average soldier could shoot (i.e., 2 per melee) to being only able to cast 1 spell per 2 shots (though RUE patched that), AND it meant that spells could be interrupted, which screwed mages over pretty hard.
Vampires went from being 2x as fast as normal humans to being 50% faster. Ditto power armor pilots.
Ditto robots.
Randomly rolled monsters from the RMB only have 1d4 attacks on average, which means that AT BEST, they're as fast as a normal (trained) human.
A lot of the balance that was originally in Rifts got screwed up, or at least seriously changed.

All in all, Kevin would have been better off just leaving the number of attacks alone, and shortening the melee rounds.
That would have made the number of attacks per melee more realistic, but wouldn't have screwed so much stuff up.

So if PFRPG attacks don't work like this (and I don't think they do), then what happens when PF characters rift to Rifts, and vice-versa? Does a dimensional anomaly cut two attacks from everyone, or do the folks of Palladium Fantasy just have relatively sucky fighting ability?

kaid wrote:
Except the psychic combat section also says that the amount of attacks per round a psychic can make exactly equals the amount of hand to hand attacks they have and then goes on to give that description of how many attacks a player starts with. So it really is a pretty clear statement for how it should work the only problem being it is also pretty clearly contradicted elsewhere in the book.

You might want to reread what you are talking about, with an eye for detail in what you are reading.

Cause the psychic section does not state anything about 2AP for living.

I have the 1st printing of PF2, and the psychic sections example about trading h2h attacks for psi attacks is for when a char has 4 APM. It does not say what level the example char was. Nor was there any level implied.

And the reminder note says that most chars start off with 2 APM to start (this is due to h2h assassin and no h2h chars only getting 1 APM to start), and gaining more by leveling up the h2h skill and through acquiring boxing, and by special bonuses gain by magic.

Unless you have a later printing where that section was ninja-mod'ed, critical reading practice should be scheduled.
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Hotrod wrote:So if PFRPG attacks don't work like this (and I don't think they do), then what happens when PF characters rift to Rifts, and vice-versa? Does a dimensional anomaly cut two attacks from everyone, or do the folks of Palladium Fantasy just have relatively sucky fighting ability?

The easiest way to say with in canon, is to add or subtract said TAFL as they exit enter the PF world.

If you are just a lazy GM and players then just adding TAFL to PF chars would be easiest house rule.

Hotrod wrote:So if PFRPG attacks don't work like this (and I don't think they do), then what happens when PF characters rift to Rifts, and vice-versa? Does a dimensional anomaly cut two attacks from everyone, or do the folks of Palladium Fantasy just have relatively sucky fighting ability?

Palladium should really write some kind of book that could be used to convert characters from other settings to Rifts.
Then they could cover this sort of thing, perhaps on p. 27 of the 5th printing, for example.

I thought that was for 1st edition conversions, but if not... then I guess I'm just ignorant.

Hotrod wrote:I thought that was for 1st edition conversions, but if not... then I guess I'm just ignorant.

They cover both, at least by the time the 5th printing rolled around.
The FIRST printing was probably just 1st edition, though, as you say.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Gryphon wrote:How about this though, base line, do you LIKE the +2 APM concept, or would you rather it not apply to Rifts Earth? As a GM, I feel that there are already enough actions going on, and it would shorten Rifts somewhat cumbersome combat system to a degree? What do the rest of you think?

I think that the addition of the TAFL screwed up Rifts in so many ways that the game STILL hasn't recovered.
Animals went from being as fast as an average human, to being 1/2 as fast.
Juicers went from being 2x as fast as an average human to being 50% faster.
Mages went from being able to cast spells as fast as an average soldier could shoot (i.e., 2 per melee) to being only able to cast 1 spell per 2 shots (though RUE patched that), AND it meant that spells could be interrupted, which screwed mages over pretty hard.
Vampires went from being 2x as fast as normal humans to being 50% faster. Ditto power armor pilots.
Ditto robots.
Randomly rolled monsters from the RMB only have 1d4 attacks on average, which means that AT BEST, they're as fast as a normal (trained) human.
A lot of the balance that was originally in Rifts got screwed up, or at least seriously changed.

All in all, Kevin would have been better off just leaving the number of attacks alone, and shortening the melee rounds.
That would have made the number of attacks per melee more realistic, but wouldn't have screwed so much stuff up.

I will agree with this endlessly, and the end result is just clunkiness. If the average character started out with 2 a round, and a mage could cast 2 spells, it's all good. Then the average character gets 4, and mage gets 2, then the average gets 4, mage gets 4. When end up back at the beginning, but have to do 2x as much before rolling initiative again.

So I wonder why RUE Dragons with combat training only get 3 APM while H-H Basic has 4?

Hot Rod wrote:So I wonder why RUE Dragons with combat training only get 3 APM while H-H Basic has 4?

Because they gain more attacks as they level?
I can't say honestly, maybe its just a game balance thing?; the dragon is stronger and has a wider range of abilities, so they act slightly less often?

[quote="Akashic Soldier"
Because they gain more attacks as they level?
I can't say honestly, maybe its just a game balance thing?; the dragon is stronger and has a wider range of abilities, so they act slightly less often?[/quote]

So they get less actions to do anything because they are stronger and have a wider variety of (potential) actions?

It's obviously a game balance issue, but hardly necessary IMO (and since when has palladium even given lip service to balance?). Fewer actions than your opponent = dead dragon in a one on one comparison (comparing to a L1 Crazy, Juicer, Borg, GB pilot, Samas Pilot, Operator w/vehicle, etc... all of which have bigger attacks than most (if not all) L1 Dragons)

Yet the dragon is considered on par with Cosmic knights in power?

Dragons get 6-8 skills total (including their Native language, & Literacy) talk about a one trick pony...

I'd really like to see them re-done & updated. D&G is particularly dated despite the Great Horned dragon being Iconic to Palladium.

Adult dragons are considered on par with cosmo knights. I never heard anyone compare a baby dragon to a CK.

A hatchling, without any magic, actually has pretty much no chance at fighting a Samas, just not fast enough, doesn't have the range.

Running some new to RPG players in a game right now, and one is playing a dragon. She is hiliarious, because she reacts just like the dragon would. Your guns can't hurt me, that knife isn't magical, you're just in a suit of armour, an enhanced human is still just a human, ect, ect.

I would assume that the hatchling is supposed to have 5 attacks base (as it used to have Basic +1 attack, so one more than an average person) and it is a misprint (I know, I know, shocking), or is supposed to have 3 attacks + breath weapon each melee.

The RUE Dragons all have one or two bonus attacks in addition to H-H: Dragon, so they all start with 4-5 attacks. It might be useful to consider adding such bonuses to other, older dragon species to balance them with RUE.

I will point out that HtH dragon tabel is marked as "Optional", which means, presumably, that the default is still HtH basic+1.

Here's a hum-dinger: Can a dragon take a standard martial art? If so, can he also use said martial art in dragon form?

On a similar note, can a dragon use HtH: Dragon when in human form?

Can dragons use their breath powers in human (or housecat) form?

Hotrod wrote:Here's a hum-dinger: Can a dragon take a standard martial art? If so, can he also use said martial art in dragon form?

nothing indicates they cannot.

On a similar note, can a dragon use HtH: Dragon when in human form?

Sure, after all they can use all their powers and retain their full mass while in human form

Can dragons use their breath powers in human (or housecat) form?

It explicitly says they can right in their metamorphasis section.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Here's a hum-dinger: Can a dragon take a standard martial art? If so, can he also use said martial art in dragon form?

nothing indicates they cannot.

I am intrigued. Every other OCC/RCC I have seen has a Hand to Hand option listed in their skills, and then any options available for upgrading (Ie 'Hand to Hand: Basic, may be upgraded to Elite for the cost of...'). Do the dragons in R:UE have that written in?

Hotrod wrote:Here's a hum-dinger: Can a dragon take a standard martial art? If so, can he also use said martial art in dragon form?

Just like anyone else, they can select Basic as a secondary skill however no other hand to hand form is available to them. There are exceptions such as the Chiang Ku or the Japanese Dragons that can have more advanced forms.
They could also learn such skills via other means, such as being taught by a Rogue Scholar or partaking in the Military World Themepark classes in Phase World.

Hotrod wrote:On a similar note, can a dragon use HtH: Dragon when in human form?

Nothing says they can't, however considering their combat moves use things like tail swipes and attacks that a human form could not emulate, I think the intention is that the combat option is supposed to be Dragon form only.

Hotrod wrote:Can dragons use their breath powers in human (or housecat) form?

Yes.
Regardless of their appearance, they are still a Dragon and have all of the physical capabilities of the Dragon.

Eashamahel wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Here's a hum-dinger: Can a dragon take a standard martial art? If so, can he also use said martial art in dragon form?

nothing indicates they cannot.

I am intrigued. Every other OCC/RCC I have seen has a Hand to Hand option listed in their skills, and then any options available for upgrading (Ie 'Hand to Hand: Basic, may be upgraded to Elite for the cost of...'). Do the dragons in R:UE have that written in?

There's at least one case of a dragon in ninjas and superspys actually INVENTING a martial arts style, used by humans, and then there's the Shikomo-Mi dragon in rifts japan that gets martial arts powers naturally.