Forums of the Megaverse®

On the contrary, circle magir is rare, and practitioners (summoners) ready toi teach all but the most minor circles to dabblers are quite rare.
As for alchemists knowing circles, not all of them, and even if they knew all circles (which not even summoners do), they have to be willing to sell that particular secret... an alchemist is somebody powerful, and as such their agendas go beyond lining the pcketbook.

Rappanui wrote:Shifters can use summoning circles, and can use them at regular cost. Further more, It says Shifters can learn All summoning Circles.

really? Where does it say that explicitly? Because I was pretty sure that it said in the PF main book that only Summons's can MAKE them. So is this MAKE circles, or USE circles, very important.
And if they can. What is their Strength? How many things can they summon/command with those circles? Or do you just give all shifters all the powers of a Summoner too?

Rappanui wrote:... and you Clearly have not read principles of magic sourcebook, otherwise, you'd know that once true name is given, You are pwne'd and can be targeted with ANY spell with NO saving throw.

Which still doesn’t mean that a spell can do more than normal. It just removes the saving throw. Unless its circle magic, then things get wonky as circles have their own rules for names. Or unless your a Demon, who again have their own rules for True Names. Or a Deevil, who again have their own rules. Or....
Also the MoM sourcebook says that you make a straight save. Not NO save, just no bonuses. That's a bit different.....

Rappanui wrote:what it means however, it's not impossible, and not rare, and certainly not a game breaker.... And All Alchemists know the ritual.

So an NPC class that exists (in canon) primarially on another dimension, and who may or may not know the circle (they are explicitly said to NOT know all circles.) is going to provide J. Random. Shifter a circle? Oh, that's assuming you ignore the comments that the Alchemist will only teach Circles to an authentic practitioner.

Svartalf wrote:On the contrary, circle magir is rare, and practitioners (summoners) ready toi teach all but the most minor circles to dabblers are quite rare.
As for alchemists knowing circles, not all of them, and even if they knew all circles (which not even summoners do), they have to be willing to sell that particular secret... an alchemist is somebody powerful, and as such their agendas go beyond lining the pcketbook.

Actually, all alchemists do know all the standard summoning circles... they're required to be 3rd level summoners, on top of a 6th level wizard and a 6th level diabolist.

Rappanui wrote:Someone is trying very hard to make it impossible for a shifter to use circle magic. ... when it says they can learn and use Circles and summoning EXACTLY the same as a summoner. (Summoners are still the masters of power circles however).. but a shifter could learn a power circle as well.

Where does it say this?
No really where?
I don't see anything in my copies of RUE about circles. Now if you have a place that does say that Shifters get to make circles, I will be happy to revise my position. And I don't have a problem with them using a circle some one ELSE made either. But I do have a problem with 'well they can use this magic, its in there trust me' with out a book/page.

Rappanui wrote:Megaverse builder. Dark conversions includes the summoner notes

And where in either book does it talk about shifters getting summoning circles?
The descriptions in RUE, Megaverse Builder, and Dark Conversions are almost identical.

1. Initial Spell Knowledge: The Shifter's focus of mystic knowledge is on spells to summon and control supernatural creatures from the Rifts, as well as control over the Rifts. Thus a Shifter starts with......

2. Learning New Spells: The Shifter's focus is on dimensional travel, the energies that create Rifts and the creatures who travel......Snip.....Starting at level two, the Shifter can choose one spell from the following list plus one Summoning or Protection spell also in this list.

neither talks about Circles.

There is a talk on pg 185 of Dark Conversions about how Circle Magic is alien to Rifts Earth, and almost totally unknown. But it doesn't say anything about Shifters having access.

Again, do you have an exact reference to ANYTHING that says that Shifters get Circle Magic?
since Circle Magic is NOT the same as 'summoning spells' anymore than the "summoning spells" of a Warlock, or Shaman are open to a Shifter.

Edit
Shifter in DC pg. 177
Shifter in MB pg. 39
Shifter in RUE pg. 120
if there is something outside of those OCC descriptions I would be interested in knowing

Rappanui wrote:forget this Argument. You are trolling.

"This word? I do not think it means what you think it means."
I am open to correction, but last time I checked 'rationally discussing the rules' was not defined as Trolling

Rappanui wrote:and yes, Any Summoning spell is the same thing, A RITUAL, which can be learned by shifters. be it Summon greater Celestial beings via Chi magic, or Summon A great Old from some old dungeon in the old kingdom mountains.
... Point is, THEY CAN LEARN IT. End of STORY.
CIRCLE MAGIC IS SUMMONING MAGIC AND PROTECTION MAGIC AND ANY RITUAL CASTING CLASS CAN LEARN THESE.
Furthermore, unless he's an incantation specialist, or some other limited magician, He can learn them also if not a shifter!. the only ones that are restricted are Power circles!

Um no. I don't think you get how this works. If you want to learn something you need to have a class that can do it.
There is NOTHING in the books that says that anyone outside of the Summoner and the Diabolist can learn or use circles. Zero. There is all sorts of talk about how its rare, its not known, how you need special lore. But nothing about "oh yah, and btw anyone can learn this." This is like saying "Well those Warlock spells are summons, so anyone can learn them."
Again, I would like a citation that supports your view that anyone can learn any circle. I am a bit skeptical of you interpretations of how things go since your already misrepresented how True Names worked.
Canon source please, not a house rule or a 'well everybody knows'

"Anyone can learn" is restricted to the 'invocation' style spells (invocation/wizard, ocean magic, combat magic)
Then there is the "you might be able to learn" stuff like Chi Magic
Then there is the "you can learn but double cost" like Necromancy
Then there is "you might be able to learn, but will pay double, or otherwise have limits" like Mirror Magic, and Line Drawings.
Then there is EVERYTHING ELSE. Which in Palladium means you need to explicitly INCLUDE a magic into the common core, or its not available for everyone.

Rappanui wrote:and yes, Any Summoning spell is the same thing, A RITUAL, which can be learned by shifters. be it Summon greater Celestial beings via Chi magic, or Summon A great Old from some old dungeon in the old kingdom mountains.
... Point is, THEY CAN LEARN IT. End of STORY.
CIRCLE MAGIC IS SUMMONING MAGIC AND PROTECTION MAGIC AND ANY RITUAL CASTING CLASS CAN LEARN THESE.
Furthermore, unless he's an incantation specialist, or some other limited magician, He can learn them also if not a shifter!. the only ones that are restricted are Power circles!

Well, actually, if you will note above, eliakon cited sources, you have not. So far, he is correct, and your above statements are, well, just wrong. Now if you can cite some specific text that may change, but right now as it stands putting something in capitals does not make it correct.

Also, if you want to argue semantics, under the Summoner OCC Circle Magic is always referred to as such, never as spells, and under the Shifter OCC it states they can learn Summoning or Proctection SPELLS from the noted list.
And while some circles do show up in the Invocations list this does not defaultly make all Circle Magic 'spells'. Assuming such is incorrect.

Rappanui wrote:Circle magic can be taught to any Spellcasting Class, except as noted, this is listed under the alchemist OCC.

Again, you can make that rule for your own game, but I don't see how you get
'Circle Magic can be taught to any Spellcasting Class' from,
"Alchemists may teach a Summoner and occasionally, a Diabloist how to create circles, but will teach only true practitioners of these arts their secrets." (PF main pg. 247)
especially since the OTHER spell caster from PF (the wizard) explicitly says
"Wizards have a passing understanding of magic circles, and can try to use circles already activated, but, except for the two protection circles available to them, they cannon create or activate most magic circles." (PF main pg. 104)
then there is the Forsaken Mage, that jack of all trades who can learn spells that even a Wizard cant
"likewise the Forsaken Mage lacks the knowledge, discipline and training to learn Diabolism and Summoning" (MoM pg 67)

So yes, it does look like the ability to use circles IS specific to certain classes (Summoners, some Diabolists, Alchemists, HU1 Wizards, BTS1 Arcanists, HU2 Demon Hunters are all explicitly said to be able to use circles.)

Rappanui wrote:it's also available to any HU2 Wizard, the only thing that keeps it rare in Rifts is that It's generally not known except by Dbee Casters from worlds other then Rifts EARTH!

Actually its the HU1 wizard who had circles. HU2 Wizards are just limited to spells. Neither of which is a Shifter.
And rarity is only part of the equasion, especially when you look at places like Atlantis, or Phase World. Its not just that its an alien art, its that its not spell casting. So its not like you can just pick up a circle or three to add to your spell book. (baring a house rule to the contrary of course)

Rappanui wrote:heck, there a a ton of supernatural Creatures that know all rituals and circles As well..

There are also a ton of creatures that know Warlock spells, that does not mean that a Shifter can learn Elemental Magic.

Mark Hall wrote:

Svartalf wrote:On the contrary, circle magir is rare, and practitioners (summoners) ready toi teach all but the most minor circles to dabblers are quite rare.
As for alchemists knowing circles, not all of them, and even if they knew all circles (which not even summoners do), they have to be willing to sell that particular secret... an alchemist is somebody powerful, and as such their agendas go beyond lining the pcketbook.

Actually, all alchemists do know all the standard summoning circles... they're required to be 3rd level summoners, on top of a 6th level wizard and a 6th level diabolist.

OOps, I mixed up summoning circles (that any summoner knows, but will he sell them to a dabbler?), and the generally less known power circles.

Svartalf wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Svartalf wrote:On the contrary, circle magir is rare, and practitioners (summoners) ready toi teach all but the most minor circles to dabblers are quite rare.
As for alchemists knowing circles, not all of them, and even if they knew all circles (which not even summoners do), they have to be willing to sell that particular secret... an alchemist is somebody powerful, and as such their agendas go beyond lining the pcketbook.

Actually, all alchemists do know all the standard summoning circles... they're required to be 3rd level summoners, on top of a 6th level wizard and a 6th level diabolist.

OOps, I mixed up summoning circles (that any summoner knows, but will he sell them to a dabbler?), and the generally less known power circles.

That is why you fail.

As for dabblers, I would class those as Diabolists, who have the knowledge to use circles, but generally do not (and have no training in the battle of wills, so their summons are generally uncontrolled), as well as others who might qualify in other ways (maybe some priests, half-trained nutjobs, and some others).

Nazcan Line Makers are said to be able to learn Diabolist wards, not sure but they may be able to learn Circles as well, since circles fall within the same purview for the rationale given for why the NLM can learn the wards.

flatline wrote:"Id Self" was it. That spell is useless until you're 5th level, but it's the best thing about getting to 5th level for a vanilla Temporal Wizard.

Unless you summon an alternate self who wants to kill and replace you. =/

Rappanui wrote:anything with a true name can be summoned. ... As explained. Fairies do not have some immunity to magic or spells in palladium, like they do in AD&D. Fairies are only immune to Fairie food!.

I think beings without true names could also be summoned, I think those are just needed to get specific minions back, or ones you've heard of. It appears that demons/deevils (excepting Lords) are enslaved if you know their name even if you don't win a battle of wills or have a servitude pact with them. This could only get more complicated if multiple people knew the name, or someone else won a BoW, or it as a Jinn who was captured/rescued.

Maybe this was just about that 'summon pawn' circle, as its doubtful Elementals even have names.

I'm actually really confused about why a Greater Elemental would make a pact with a Shifter, if it's similar to Warlocks or something. I had thought Elementals had no interest in leaving their respective Planes and coming to earth, and could only be forced into it.

The only pact of interest I could see is if a Greater Elemental wanted to come to earth to rescue lesser elementals enslaved by other shifters...

Rappanui wrote:Shifters can use summoning circles, and can use them at regular cost. Further more, It says Shifters can learn All summoning Circles.

Where's it say this? New addition in RUE? Even Dark Conversions maintained the CB1 stance that the circles were alien to rifts and not known.

Rappanui wrote:you Clearly have not read principles of magic sourcebook, otherwise, you'd know that once true name is given, You are pwne'd and can be targeted with ANY spell with NO saving throw.

Principles? Do you mean Heart?

I figure we should avoid saying 'Mysteries' since this is apparently a series and HoM is going to have a 'Dark Magicks' sequel.

Rappanui wrote:and yes, Any Summoning spell is the same thing, A RITUAL, which can be learned by shifters. be it Summon greater Celestial beings via Chi magic, or Summon A great Old from some old dungeon in the old kingdom mountains.
... Point is, THEY CAN LEARN IT. End of STORY.
CIRCLE MAGIC IS SUMMONING MAGIC AND PROTECTION MAGIC AND ANY RITUAL CASTING CLASS CAN LEARN THESE.
Furthermore, unless he's an incantation specialist, or some other limited magician, He can learn them also if not a shifter!. the only ones that are restricted are Power circles!

Shifters are very common on Rifts Earth. DC185 says:

"these two mystic arts are 'alien' magicks. Neither one is common to Rifts Earth and they are known only by practitioners of magic from other worlds, specifically the Palladium World where they are believed to have originated. As such, Diabolism and Summoner Circle Magic are alien disciplines unknown to the world of Rifts"

This seems to quite explicitly indicate that Shifters don't know this magic, and there isn't any indication that they can learn them. The original PRPG let wizards/warlocks learn basic protection circles, and Diabolists could learn any circles (but did not start with any) but could not use a battle of wills to control any minions from summon circles. The dimension of PF2nd has circles exclusive to summoners. I'm not aware of any instance where it's been implied that shifters or any other OCC can learn the circle. The closest I can recall is that Nazca Line Makers can learn Diabolist Wards (which is pretty much useless for them since they lack the ability to ACTIVATE any, but I guess they could make a decent assistant).

If it's a settled issue, it should be easy enough to help us find a thread where it was settled and the book phrasings that supported the settlement. What post-CB1 event changed and allowed Shifters to learn circle magic without changing OCCs?

Rappanui wrote:it was settled back in the old FAQ days.
I'm sure it's irrelevant to today's rules lawyers.

In the magic FAQ I see
125. Circle magic in rifts - do you still have to use components (like fairy wings & unicorn horn) or do you just use the PPE cost in the conversion book to power the circles?
Answer: You still have to use components, as well as P.P.E.
I didn't see any other notes about circle magic. I would be most interested though in knowing where/if it was, and what specifically was actually said.

(also there is no need to call people 'rules lawyers' simply because they want to follow canon. Firstly its prejoritive, secondly it presumes that the rule being followed is abusive in some way.)

That FAQ note doesn't mention Shifters being able to make the circles though. I don't take 'lawyer' as an insult, but I do take pejoratively the implication that I find FAQs irrelevant. Seeing them as less authoritative as books doesn't mean I don't care about them, and I would love to read any FAQ discussing Shifters learning circles and compare that to the books.

Considering in many cases books will mention "shifter/summoner" as if interchangeable (in spite of their huge differences) I can see where the misunderstanding would originate.

Even if a Shifter could learn circles (like Diabolists and Wizards/Warlocks to lesser degree in 1st PRPG could) they would still have to go by their own Battle of Wills. Part of the danger in doing this though, is when a Shifter normally summons, they are kept somewhat safe because they establish dominance through a MICRO rift before opening it all the way to let the minion through. The only danger is in the chance that the portal might be forced open.

In the case of a summoning circle, because a Shifter lacks the Summoner's minion abilities, the creature is not only FULLY summoned before the BoW even begins, but they lack the power to send it back if they lose the battle.

There are some god NPCs who know 'all circles' or 'all wards' in spite of not being explicitly of a Diabolist or Summoner OCC. They are totally neutered in the case of Diabolism (non-Diabolists can't EMPOWER or ACTIVATE wards even if they can create them) and somewhat compromised in the case of summoning. There's no per-day limit for circle usage, and with gods, they don't have to worry so much about will-battling because lesser beings will probably just obey them anyway since they're so much weaker.

Whether or not we perceive them as advanced is perspective. They do have advances over them, but some disadvantages too. Summoners can use protection circles and circles of power, which could be a huge asset. It is a disadvantage if a Shifter can't learn them, which I think is the case.

Shifting is great for high-MA guys, Summoning is great for high-ME guys. So I think different races might be drawn to either based on what attribute tends to be better.