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I am one of the more critical of this company as many of you likely know already. However that being said....

The system CAN work. While it is probably the BIGGEST stumbling block for people as it is, it CAN be fixed without really "changing" or "completely rewriting" the rules.

If we were to take the rules (which i am doing with another poster as we speak), compile them all together, clean them up (as in fix things like step 2 of the combat system that flat out states you can only attack by rewording to say the person with initiative performs an action etc things like that), streamline them by removing redundant rules or correlate them properly (put all "action rules" in one place, all "dodge rules" in one place etc) and add rules that seem to be missing (like when can you move during a melee etc).

If this were to be done then guess what? I think the rules would actually be pretty damn good.

I love the setting of Rifts so much that it rates 2nd only to Star Wars for me. That's big.

Now the initial question was "Is Rifts dead?"

Not if we keep it alive.

And this is from a person that has repeatedly been critical of this company.

Eashamahel wrote:I think I understand what you mean. Pathfinder has a lot more rules, and a rule system that seems more specific. RIFTS has a lot less rules, and a rule system that is very general. Because of this, RIFTS takes more independent thought by players, and Pathfinder relies on it's system. Sound about right?

D20/Pathfinder started out with a general ruleset and they have just layered more and more onto it as time goes by. Palladium gives you a large framework to play in. An analogy might be taking a small house and adding tons of rooms on versus a large, modular building where you can move the walls around, atleast in my opinion. D20/Pathfinder puts a straightjacket on the kind of things you can do, while Palladium gives you options. You just have to see the options and run with it.

Example:
A low-level D20/Pathfinder group goes up against a dragon, the gear they have bounces off the dragon and they can't do any daring deeds since they don't have the feats yet, and the dragon gets a snack and maybe some entertainment (and some minor treasure for its hoard).
A low-level Rifts group goes up against a similar dragon, pulls off a number of daring ideas using what is at hand (my favorite being a satchel charge of fusion blocks wrapped around the dragon's neck), group of characters kills the dragon and has a story that will be told for a while.

Would that not mean that a game system with no/minimal rules, like a storytelling system, would then be even more complicated?


Also, your analogy was hilarious. A group in game A fights a dragon, but they can't win because 'the gear they have bounces off the dragon'. A group in game B does win, because their gear includes 'a satchel charge of fusion blocks wrapped around the dragons neck'. So, basically the difference in games systems is that groups in game B started the fight with weapons that would allow them to win?

And then I realize, NOPE! NOT EVEN CLOSE!

According to the 'Rules' of RIFTS, which we are discussing, a heavy fusion block inflicts about 4D6x10, so even two of them (a hefty pack) would only inflict 480MD with a maximum roll, which is 960MD if you got a 'critical' hit. Now, that dragon, assuming we are talking about a Great Horned (for simplicity sake, a pretty classic dragon), comes in at 2500MDC minimum, meaning that the fusion blocks, with MAXIMUM effect, do not achieve the kill against a dragon with MINIMUM resilience.

But wait, lets keep arguing! Of COURSE those fusion blocks going off on the dragons neck should kill it, it only makes sense! Even if the dragon doesn't have MDC by location, it's just like jumping on a grenade, it kills you no matter what, right? Just like the 'jumping on a grenade' example in the Conversion book, right? Under the SDC & Explosives section it gives an example of this. BUT NO! Right under that, 'A Note about M.D. Creatures', we find that 'MDC flesh is a special armour-like skin that is resistant even to most point-blank attacks. They can use their bodies to smother an MDC grenade or block a particle beam. While the blast will hurt, it will not kill until all mega-damage points have been depleted.'

Oh wow, so what you are saying is that the rules system of RIFTS doesn't actually allow the player group to do anything that the PC's of that OTHER game can't do. They are still limited by their gear and abilites, and even WORSE, their awesome and neat-o ideas only work if we (wait for it) start the HOUSE RULING!



Yeah.

Eashamahel wrote:Would that not mean that a game system with no/minimal rules, like a storytelling system, would then be even more complicated?


Also, your analogy was hilarious. A group in game A fights a dragon, but they can't win because 'the gear they have bounces off the dragon'. A group in game B does win, because their gear includes 'a satchel charge of fusion blocks wrapped around the dragons neck'. So, basically the difference in games systems is that groups in game B started the fight with weapons that would allow them to win?

And then I realize, NOPE! NOT EVEN CLOSE!

According to the 'Rules' of RIFTS, which we are discussing, a heavy fusion block inflicts about 4D6x10, so even two of them (a hefty pack) would only inflict 480MD with a maximum roll, which is 960MD if you got a 'critical' hit. Now, that dragon, assuming we are talking about a Great Horned (for simplicity sake, a pretty classic dragon), comes in at 2500MDC minimum, meaning that the fusion blocks, with MAXIMUM effect, do not achieve the kill against a dragon with MINIMUM resilience.

But wait, lets keep arguing! Of COURSE those fusion blocks going off on the dragons neck should kill it, it only makes sense! Even if the dragon doesn't have MDC by location, it's just like jumping on a grenade, it kills you no matter what, right? Just like the 'jumping on a grenade' example in the Conversion book, right? Under the SDC & Explosives section it gives an example of this. BUT NO! Right under that, 'A Note about M.D. Creatures', we find that 'MDC flesh is a special armour-like skin that is resistant even to most point-blank attacks. They can use their bodies to smother an MDC grenade or block a particle beam. While the blast will hurt, it will not kill until all mega-damage points have been depleted.'

Oh wow, so what you are saying is that the rules system of RIFTS doesn't actually allow the player group to do anything that the PC's of that OTHER game can't do. They are still limited by their gear and abilites, and even WORSE, their awesome and neat-o ideas only work if we (wait for it) start the HOUSE RULING!



Yeah.

still doesn't change the fact a 1st level character can still kill a higher level character using the palladium/rift system.

Are you sure you mean that they can defeat a higher level character using the 'system' or using storytelling? Do they achieve this victory through the mechanics of the game, or explanation? Because if it's storytelling and explanation, then any system can do that.

As for '1st level characters' defeating higher level ones? Yeah, in RIFTS that's nothing. A first level Hatchling Dragon Undead Slayer doesn't have much to worry about from a tenth level Rogue Scholar or Wilderness Scout, class wise with their skills and abilities/feats. It's only if you include outside influence, like additional equipment and storyline events that they have a chance.

Eashamahel wrote:Are you sure you mean that they can defeat a higher level character using the 'system' or using storytelling? Do they achieve this victory through the mechanics of the game, or explanation? Because if it's storytelling and explanation, then any system can do that.

As for '1st level characters' defeating higher level ones? Yeah, in RIFTS that's nothing. A first level Hatchling Dragon Undead Slayer doesn't have much to worry about from a tenth level Rogue Scholar or Wilderness Scout, class wise with their skills and abilities/feats. It's only if you include outside influence, like additional equipment and storyline events that they have a chance.

Seen it time and time again in rifts without story telling having any part of it,

Really? No part in it? I suppose if you consider weapons and such part of the mechanics and not part of the story, then definately. But if you could equip characters from other games (lets say pathfinder) with weapons that did 100x the damage they normally would, you would see a couple more low level kills against high level characters.

1st level RPA versus 10th level hatchling is actually a pretty good fight if you ask me.....and the RPA has a chance of success....

jaymz wrote:1st level RPA versus 10th level hatchling is actually a pretty good fight if you ask me.....and the RPA has a chance of success....

If "success" means "making the hatchling flee," then I'd say that he has a VERY good chance, if he has some decent armor.

a win is a win is a win regardless of how you achieve it

jaymz wrote:1st level RPA versus 10th level hatchling is actually a pretty good fight if you ask me.....and the RPA has a chance of success....

Haha! You mean, a '1st level RPA' with appropriate equipment, right? Because a 1st level RPA in, say, Chipwell Warmonger armour is not going to do too much, let alone a first level RPA with NO equipment. And before you go crazy and say 'of course he has something like that, otherwise this would be silly' a 10th level hatchling may well have a Scroll of Anihilate, and then it's not much of a battle at all. The equipment/gear of the characters is the defining factor here, and what they have is storyline, they didn't gain it per level or create it with skill checks or some such, they either asked the GM and started with it, or accumulated it during game play.

Yes that's right however the original example was saying precisely that as well. In the "other" game you wouldn't/couldn't have the equipment needed for such a threat nor the skills to use said equipment. I am agreeing with thatassessment.

So your point being?

My point was that it has about nothing to do with the characters progressing through levels, and everything to do with the gear they can start off with. A 10th level Operator with a jeep is not going to be able to defeat a Dragon (barring storyline intervention), but a first level Operator with a Titan Combat Robot probably could.

It's nothing to do with class balance, or progression, or leveling, it's entirely about the equipment of RIFTS.



Yep, and a starting Vagaond will NOT have that equipment, nor will most scientists or scholars, or a lot of other classes.

-Some classes in RIFTS have a huge power advantage over others, and are much more combat capable than most others, even other characters of much higher level. (Cyborgs, Undead Slayers, ect)

-Some start with, or have the potential to start with, gear that allows them, when properly equipped, to defeat other characters, even other characters of a much higher level. (Headhunter, RPA, ect)

Levels mean very little in RIFTS, the game wasn't really set up for them to do much. Some characters, like the Undead Slayer and Mind Melter, gain a lot ('feats') each level, even being unable to 'unlock' higher level abilities which may allow them to do things they just plain couldn't at lower levels (Mentally Possess Others, Mind Bond, ect). Some will pretty much be just as good at 15th level as they were at 1st.


A better comparison would be that two RIFTS characters with the same OCC/RCC, with the same gear and equipment, are on a roughly equal footing even if one is much higher level than the other. A 5th level fighter in Pathfinder or D&D is just flat out better and will beat a 1st level character (barring storyline interventions), but a 1st level RIFTS character (with the restrictions above) has a good chance against a 5th level RIFTS character, due to the fact that levels do not often account for THAT much advancement for most classes, and the 4 levels of difference between 2 characters could just be a karate kick and +2 parry/dodge.

Mainly, levels mean very little to most RIFTS characters as far as combat goes. Most people I have played and talked to are eager to get to 2nd/3rd level as that's where they get their bulk bonuses from hand to hand (and usually additional skills), and after that, for the vast majority of characters, leveling up is a neat 'bonus' of play. It's ALL about the equipment for most combat characters.

Eashamahel wrote:My point was that it has about nothing to do with the characters progressing through levels, and everything to do with the gear they can start off with. A 10th level Operator with a jeep is not going to be able to defeat a Dragon (barring storyline intervention), but a first level Operator with a Titan Combat Robot probably could.

It's nothing to do with class balance, or progression, or leveling, it's entirely about the equipment of RIFTS.



Yep, and a starting Vagaond will NOT have that equipment, nor will most scientists or scholars, or a lot of other classes.

-Some classes in RIFTS have a huge power advantage over others, and are much more combat capable than most others, even other characters of much higher level. (Cyborgs, Undead Slayers, ect)

-Some start with, or have the potential to start with, gear that allows them, when properly equipped, to defeat other characters, even other characters of a much higher level. (Headhunter, RPA, ect)

Levels mean very little in RIFTS, the game wasn't really set up for them to do much. Some characters, like the Undead Slayer and Mind Melter, gain a lot ('feats') each level, even being unable to 'unlock' higher level abilities which may allow them to do things they just plain couldn't at lower levels (Mentally Possess Others, Mind Bond, ect). Some will pretty much be just as good at 15th level as they were at 1st.


A better comparison would be that two RIFTS characters with the same OCC/RCC, with the same gear and equipment, are on a roughly equal footing even if one is much higher level than the other. A 5th level fighter in Pathfinder or D&D is just flat out better and will beat a 1st level character (barring storyline interventions), but a 1st level RIFTS character (with the restrictions above) has a good chance against a 5th level RIFTS character, due to the fact that levels do not often account for THAT much advancement for most classes, and the 4 levels of difference between 2 characters could just be a karate kick and +2 parry/dodge.

Mainly, levels mean very little to most RIFTS characters as far as combat goes. Most people I have played and talked to are eager to get to 2nd/3rd level as that's where they get their bulk bonuses from hand to hand (and usually additional skills), and after that, for the vast majority of characters, leveling up is a neat 'bonus' of play. It's ALL about the equipment for most combat characters.

Okay... so what's the point?

Actually I'd say level DOES have something to do with it as in the "other" game at earlier levels you won;t have the feats or skill level to use the better equipment effectively even if you DID have it.

Hm.

A level 15 power armor pilot in SAMAS stands a good chance of beating a level 1 glitter boy. Too many dodges, too high of bonuses.

Subjugator wrote:Hm.

A level 15 power armor pilot in SAMAS stands a good chance of beating a level 1 glitter boy. Too many dodges, too high of bonuses.

I'd like to see THAT fight!

I know in the original RIFTS rules that SAMAS stands a good chance, but I am actually fuzzy on current rules. Wouldn't the SAMAS be dodging the GB's shots at something like -10 with none of his bonuses counted in?

Eashamahel wrote:I know in the original RIFTS rules that SAMAS stands a good chance, but I am actually fuzzy on current rules. Wouldn't the SAMAS be dodging the GB's shots at something like -10 with none of his bonuses counted in?

Depends on range.

Ah, so, assuming the SAMAS is within it's weapon range (so 4000ft), and between it's cruising and max speed (so 180mph), does it get it's bonuses to dodge, and does it get any negatives?

Eashamahel wrote:Ah, so, assuming the SAMAS is within it's weapon range (so 4000ft), and between it's cruising and max speed (so 180mph), does it get it's bonuses to dodge, and does it get any negatives?

The GB would be at -4 to strike the Samas, -5 if the Samas is taking evasive action. The Samas also gets +5 to dodge from Robot Combat: Elite training in addition to any dodge bonuses from PP, Boxing, Athletics and H2H skills.
The problem with using a Samas though (or at least the default model in the RUE) is that other than hand-held weaponry, he only has two missiles as his integrated armament.
Only integrated weapon systems are immune to the firing wild while moving rule, so his railgun doesn't count. Due to flying and not driving, he cannot take Combat Driving. Due to using a heavy weapon, he cannot use Sharpshooting. A Samas has no ability to mitigate the firing wild while moving penalty.
That means he suffers a -6 penalty to shoot the stationary Glitterboy and even more significantly, cannot make called shots - that means as long as the GB has any amount of cover, he is entirely impervious to any attack from a moving Samas.

The Samas has a better chance of fighting stationary than he does buzzing around but whether stationary or mobile, he isn't going to stand much of a chance against a GB. His best course of action would be to throw the Railgun into a volcano and pull out a Rifle which he has honed Sharpshooting skills with. Then he can be completely mobile and may stand a solid chance against the GB.

Edit: One thing people tend to overlook about the Samas which is a huge advantage and could possibly swing things a little in his favour, is the fact that the Samas have one of the fastest experience tables in the game. To put it in perspective, your average PF Peasant requires 290k xp to get to level 15 and your average Samas pilot requires 289k. In your average encounter, a Samas pilot should have an edge in experience levels.

These days I avoid playing rifts cause it is not Challenging and it tends to attract munchkins.

Giant2005 wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Ah, so, assuming the SAMAS is within it's weapon range (so 4000ft), and between it's cruising and max speed (so 180mph), does it get it's bonuses to dodge, and does it get any negatives?

The GB would be at -4 to strike the Samas, -5 if the Samas is taking evasive action. The Samas also gets +5 to dodge from Robot Combat: Elite training in addition to any dodge bonuses from PP, Boxing, Athletics and H2H skills.
The problem with using a Samas though (or at least the default model in the RUE) is that other than hand-held weaponry, he only has two missiles as his integrated armament.
Only integrated weapon systems are immune to the firing wild while moving rule, so his railgun doesn't count. Due to flying and not driving, he cannot take Combat Driving. Due to using a heavy weapon, he cannot use Sharpshooting. A Samas has no ability to mitigate the firing wild while moving penalty.
That means he suffers a -6 penalty to shoot the stationary Glitterboy and even more significantly, cannot make called shots - that means as long as the GB has any amount of cover, he is entirely impervious to any attack from a moving Samas.

The Samas has a better chance of fighting stationary than he does buzzing around but whether stationary or mobile, he isn't going to stand much of a chance against a GB. His best course of action would be to throw the Railgun into a volcano and pull out a Rifle which he has honed Sharpshooting skills with. Then he can be completely mobile and may stand a solid chance against the GB.

Edit: One thing people tend to overlook about the Samas which is a huge advantage and could possibly swing things a little in his favour, is the fact that the Samas have one of the fastest experience tables in the game. To put it in perspective, your average PF Peasant requires 290k xp to get to level 15 and your average Samas pilot requires 289k. In your average encounter, a Samas pilot should have an edge in experience levels.

Why would a -6 penalty render the GB impervious? Even with out bonus it seems that he's still gonna hit about 50% of the time. The Sam can also maneuver behind the glitter boy after pylons are sunk. When the GB goes to retract and reposition the Sam could move to stay behind him. Same sort of game that kids play trying to stay behind someone and not get seen, except with power armor that can go many 100s mph?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Ah, so, assuming the SAMAS is within it's weapon range (so 4000ft), and between it's cruising and max speed (so 180mph), does it get it's bonuses to dodge, and does it get any negatives?

The GB would be at -4 to strike the Samas, -5 if the Samas is taking evasive action. The Samas also gets +5 to dodge from Robot Combat: Elite training in addition to any dodge bonuses from PP, Boxing, Athletics and H2H skills.
The problem with using a Samas though (or at least the default model in the RUE) is that other than hand-held weaponry, he only has two missiles as his integrated armament.
Only integrated weapon systems are immune to the firing wild while moving rule, so his railgun doesn't count. Due to flying and not driving, he cannot take Combat Driving. Due to using a heavy weapon, he cannot use Sharpshooting. A Samas has no ability to mitigate the firing wild while moving penalty.
That means he suffers a -6 penalty to shoot the stationary Glitterboy and even more significantly, cannot make called shots - that means as long as the GB has any amount of cover, he is entirely impervious to any attack from a moving Samas.

The Samas has a better chance of fighting stationary than he does buzzing around but whether stationary or mobile, he isn't going to stand much of a chance against a GB. His best course of action would be to throw the Railgun into a volcano and pull out a Rifle which he has honed Sharpshooting skills with. Then he can be completely mobile and may stand a solid chance against the GB.

Edit: One thing people tend to overlook about the Samas which is a huge advantage and could possibly swing things a little in his favour, is the fact that the Samas have one of the fastest experience tables in the game. To put it in perspective, your average PF Peasant requires 290k xp to get to level 15 and your average Samas pilot requires 289k. In your average encounter, a Samas pilot should have an edge in experience levels.

Why would a -6 penalty render the GB impervious? Even with out bonus it seems that he's still gonna hit about 50% of the time. The Sam can also maneuver behind the glitter boy after pylons are sunk. When the GB goes to retract and reposition the Sam could move to stay behind him. Same sort of game that kids play trying to stay behind someone and not get seen, except with power armor that can go many 100s mph?

The -6 penalty doesn't render the GB impervious but the fact that you can't make called shots while shooting wild does. If someone has cover, they cannot be hit by anything but a called shot, if the Samas can't make a called shot then it can't hit the GB regardless of how much he wants to.
The GB pylons automatically engage and disgage (is disgage a word?) whenever the gun is fired. All that means is that he cannot run while shooting (which would be shooting wild exactly the same as the Samas is doing in the scenario). He can still spin around and aim before firing just as well as anyone else can - that mobility handicap the books refer to would only exist if the pylons had to be manually engaged and perhaps disgaged with each shot, costing an action as a consequence. That mechanic doesn't exist which I personally think is a shame.

Apparantly I really have fallen behind on the times, as there seem to be a lot more rules to RIFTS than there used to be/then I use when running games. I guess what I meant by simpler/more complex systems earlier was that RIFTS had a very rules simple game, with minimum explanation/limitation, and lots of imagination/extrapolation/winging it, which to me means 'simple' as it is not rules heavy or complicated, whereas another game system, like Pathfinder seems to have, might have a more solid rules structure, where you need to KNOW more of the game to play in it.

The word you are looking for Giant, I believe, is 'disengage'. And you are right, there is no 'setting' of the pylons mechanic or system, it does not take attacks or give negatives. Basically, it doesn't exist as a handicap in the system. It might be made one by a GM, or imagined to be by players, but it does not exist as any sort of rule.

The Samas would eventually be able to shoot the cover to dust, most likely, but that is a HILARIOUS write up of the combat, and deeply amusing that the SAMAS Railgun is about the worst weapon he could have, unless he wants to stop flying and be a ground trooper. Good to see the rules have evolved to a more 'reasonable' place!


As for RIFTS being a game of munchkinism, that's because it's not about character with level X against character with level Y, it's about the characters/OCCs themselves. A 15th level character is commonly not going to be the equal of a 1st level character, as far more depends on the OCC/RCC (and equipment) than levels. I suppose it's part of the game mechanics that what you chose to be off the start is far more important than how much time and effort you put into playing that character. The simple solution is, as always, to play with a group of people who are all on the same page as far as gaming goes, and who want to play TOGETHER with a similar style. The solution I have heard in the past for playing in open/walk in RIFTS games is to always come ready with a very powerful character choice, because you can always 'play down' to the level of the game if it is not as high as you were expecting, but you never want to come into a more powerful game with a less powerful character.

Oh, and don't go into any game expecting things to be the way they are implied to be in the books, that's just asking for a huge let down.

Giant2005 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Ah, so, assuming the SAMAS is within it's weapon range (so 4000ft), and between it's cruising and max speed (so 180mph), does it get it's bonuses to dodge, and does it get any negatives?

The GB would be at -4 to strike the Samas, -5 if the Samas is taking evasive action. The Samas also gets +5 to dodge from Robot Combat: Elite training in addition to any dodge bonuses from PP, Boxing, Athletics and H2H skills.
The problem with using a Samas though (or at least the default model in the RUE) is that other than hand-held weaponry, he only has two missiles as his integrated armament.
Only integrated weapon systems are immune to the firing wild while moving rule, so his railgun doesn't count. Due to flying and not driving, he cannot take Combat Driving. Due to using a heavy weapon, he cannot use Sharpshooting. A Samas has no ability to mitigate the firing wild while moving penalty.
That means he suffers a -6 penalty to shoot the stationary Glitterboy and even more significantly, cannot make called shots - that means as long as the GB has any amount of cover, he is entirely impervious to any attack from a moving Samas.

The Samas has a better chance of fighting stationary than he does buzzing around but whether stationary or mobile, he isn't going to stand much of a chance against a GB. His best course of action would be to throw the Railgun into a volcano and pull out a Rifle which he has honed Sharpshooting skills with. Then he can be completely mobile and may stand a solid chance against the GB.

Edit: One thing people tend to overlook about the Samas which is a huge advantage and could possibly swing things a little in his favour, is the fact that the Samas have one of the fastest experience tables in the game. To put it in perspective, your average PF Peasant requires 290k xp to get to level 15 and your average Samas pilot requires 289k. In your average encounter, a Samas pilot should have an edge in experience levels.

Why would a -6 penalty render the GB impervious? Even with out bonus it seems that he's still gonna hit about 50% of the time. The Sam can also maneuver behind the glitter boy after pylons are sunk. When the GB goes to retract and reposition the Sam could move to stay behind him. Same sort of game that kids play trying to stay behind someone and not get seen, except with power armor that can go many 100s mph?

The -6 penalty doesn't render the GB impervious but the fact that you can't make called shots while shooting wild does. If someone has cover, they cannot be hit by anything but a called shot, if the Samas can't make a called shot then it can't hit the GB regardless of how much he wants to.
The GB pylons automatically engage and disgage (is disgage a word?) whenever the gun is fired. All that means is that he cannot run while shooting (which would be shooting wild exactly the same as the Samas is doing in the scenario). He can still spin around and aim before firing just as well as anyone else can - that mobility handicap the books refer to would only exist if the pylons had to be manually engaged and perhaps disgaged with each shot, costing an action as a consequence. That mechanic doesn't exist which I personally think is a shame.

It's been years since I've played a GB. Not my style, but I always thought they DID have to pause and sink Pylons, and that was the 'limiting' factor of GB. They were walking artillery, not fast moving bots. I'll have to crack open the book, but I've never seen them played like standard armor with out the need to sink the pylons or that they pull the trigger and in the milisecond before the boom gun fires the pylons blast into the ground, the metal leaves the cannons and the pylons retract all three in one action.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's been years since I've played a GB. Not my style, but I always thought they DID have to pause and sink Pylons, and that was the 'limiting' factor of GB. They were walking artillery, not fast moving bots. I'll have to crack open the book, but I've never seen them played like standard armor with out the need to sink the pylons or that they pull the trigger and in the milisecond before the boom gun fires the pylons blast into the ground, the metal leaves the cannons and the pylons retract all three in one action.

Well...

"The blast is so powerful that without the automatic stabilization system, the Glitter Boy would be thrown to the ground and knocked back 30 ft. The automatic stabilization system is a synchronized system of jet thrusters and retractable reinforcement pylons in the legs that hold the armour stead. The pylons and jets fly into action the moment the Boom Gun is fired. "

RMB, pages 221 and 223 under the '1. RG-14 Rapid Acceleration Electromagnetic Rail Gun (1):' section.


The only other information available from the original GB description is in the diagram, which shows how the "Thrusters are synchronized to the gun elevation and side to side sweep. Thrusters fire only when gun is fired'" Which is clearly not true, as they are described as letting the robot do Jet Thruster Assisted leaps and momentarily hover, and the T'elescoping-Anti-Sway Pylons (with laser drill)' diagram, which says "...are activated just before gun is to be fired. Gun will not fire if pylons (one-each leg) are not activated." Which is also often played wrong, as the GB cannot 'choose' to not activate the pylons/fire without them activated. However, there is really no reason not to activate them, as they take no time, and work instantly, the only time you shouldn't be able to is when you are moving at a full run, or in the air (possibly when doing one of those jest assisted leaps you 'can't' do).

Expanding out from the RMB to the Conversion Book, under the "Disadvantages of Playing the Glitter Boy" section, we read that "1. The Glitter Boy is designed for "power,"...Its maximum running speed is a ponderous 60 mph (96kmph), which means that the SAMAS...Can run rings around the GB. This gives the faster units a better chance...from the GB's attacks....Worse yet, the GB must stop, sink pylons into the ground and engage the jet boosters of its recoil supression system in order to fire the boom gun with any measure of accuracy."


So, the Glitter Boys thrusters/pylons engage automatically when fired, don't take up any attacks or 'extra' time past the normal attacks per round, and only require the feet to be on the ground (both, at the same time). It's 'slowness' is actually it's groundbased nature and slow running speed, and there is nothing that is stopping it from walking/jogging/jumping/skipping along while firing, as long as it stops momentarily to fire. Basically, they pull the trigger and in the milisecond before the boom gun fires the pylons blast into the ground, the metal leaves the cannons and the pylons retract all three in one action.


-edit-

Thought I would mention, one of the early limitations of the Glitter Boy was, much like a main battle tank, it's ammunition was very limited. With 100 rounds, it was unlikely to run out of ammunition serving as a support weapon or in a group, but as a single unit it could easily do so, especially in an extended fire fight or over multiple battles, which is why they include the 40 round ammo case option and the time it took to load 40 rounds. The GB had no backup or secondary weapons, unlike most other robots who relied on a main Rail Gun and also had an energy turret which did average to high Energy Rifle damage, which meant that it generally used the Boom Gun in every situation, over a big detriment or unnecessary. It was always a good idea for the GB to 'carry' an extra weapon to use (and I think the GB on the cover of Free Quebec is doing just that, though I believe it is another Railgun, the Deadman's one the Skelebots use), much like a tank has a machine gun besides it's main cannon.

We used Glitterboys just like tanks, because that's what they replaced in our minds. We also had different roles and different types of GB's and SAMAS. When we read the 1,000 round change we ignored it as a 'typo in the TM' and kept right on going. Of course our GB routinely packs APDSFSDU-T rounds and the whole group uses an electronic warfare net and ECM and ECCM.

Yeah, GB's have always been walking tanks, but with the power armour treatment they are incredibly manueverable tanks, just not more manueverable than say, the armoured infantry that the SAMAS represent. And putting the SAMAS with GB's has always been an amazine grouping, with the SAMAS ability to protect the GBs from a lot of their greatest weaknesses, particularly missiles (which the SAMAS are great at countering, using their Mini-Missiles as counter missile fire gives them a much greater chance of detonating enemy volleys) and running skirmish/forward interference between the GBs and their targets, preventing enemies from closing the distance to the GB's.


But this is all a very good example of a few things. One is the 'simplicity' of RIFTS rules. It's not that how the Glitter Boy works is easy to figure out, clearly after all these years there is still confusion, and doubtless someone will come on here momentarily and tell me I am wrong, but that the rules for it are very 'light'. There is not much explanation of the system by which it works, how it moves and fires, it's maximum speed, even how far it can move in an action/melee round before it can no longer fire, ect. It's 'simple', you are a Glitterboy, it's a walking tank, so walk and tank, and you'll be fine. If RIFTS was a more 'complicated' rules system, it would have actual rules detailing how any of the above actually worked.

Is it a bad thing that the rules/game system IS so 'simple'? I think not. It was one of the main things that helped me learn the game so long ago, and it helps new players (that I have) since. All they have to do is describe what they want, they are not bound by a 'complex' series of rules (or weren't, obviously the R:UE has a lot more specific rules) about what they can do, how it works, ect. Don't get me wrong, there are SOME rules, but most of the world/interaction is just a do-it-how-you-feel system.


It also shows one of the problems with RIFTS, which is that the game was based on this 'rules light' approach, and because of that, whenever the authors wanted something to work a specific way, they tended to introduce rules as was necessary in further books, the '-2 to strike with the off handed weapon' on the Predator armour, for instance, which makes sense, but why isn't that a universal rule for all off-handed weapons? Or is it? (I honestly don't remember if it is in the R:UE rulebook). This lead to a game system that was either very good and rules light by the original book, or ever more complicated and built up, as time went on.

And the 'patching' or bloating of the system wasn't just limited to rules. It came in the form of gear/equipment, with endless examples of basic weapons and armour, 'variant' and 'new' OCCs, as well as every other little item that could come about. Each of these was the author trying to add to the world, which was individually very neat, but all together created a world where there HAVE to be 20 variations of 'Laser Pistols' in the 1-2D6MD range. Not a problem that could have been forseen at the time, but one which became obvious over time.

The books themselves of course had to be 'new', 'exciting' and 'unique'. Nothing could be borrowed from previous books, or heaven forbid the rulebook. Every new group had to have their own suits of MDC environmental armour (in the 40-80MDC range, with full descriptions), and they all had to have their own unique OCCs. Things which you would have expected to show up regularly in the world emerging from the apocalypse, like Rogue Scholars, Scientists trying to recover or re-learn the forgotten world, or Wilderness Scouts who would be everywhere, often just got replaced or overlooked by new, more 'exciting' types.

After a while, and I am in no way saying there were not other reasons, with supply, timelines, ect, many players, whether original diehards or just general gamers, saw the trend. RIFTS was 'bigger is better', and 'newer' meant 'bigger'. It was all about getting the newest book, all the new classes, all the new gear. And since every book had to stand out from the last, since they were all unique areas full of unique people with unique everything else, the original stuff that got people hooked got left behind. Problems and questions with the rulesystem, iconic gear and classes, and even the original concept and vision of the game were, if not abandoned, then 're-imagined'. Can anyone pick up New or Spirit West and say that it was keeping on with the same vision of the RMB?

And maybe they were, maybe RIFTS was supposed to be a Psychic Tomahawk throwing, three types of six shooting cowboy game, but, and again, this is how it has seemed to me over the years of watching, playing and watching other, now mostly former, players, to those of use who liked it early on, it wasn't really resembling what we started out with. And again, maybe that's what it was supposed to be all along, a super-hero-esque battle of crazy characters in the ever expanding land of cliches, but a lot of older players didn't seem to think it was supposed to be that way when they stopped picking up the books.


Again, RIFTS, in it's current form, is not dead as long as they are making new books, but it is not going to suddenly re-emerge with an expanding fan base as some people seem to hope or think is going to happen if only they could get a few more books out, or because the next book is so awesome, it has too many hurdles to overcome. A quick read around this board will show you that new players have a hard enough time even being exposed to the game, but a good look at where the game went should show most of us how they lost so many older players over the years. RIFTS just couldn't decide what it wanted to be, in rules, themes, anything. So now it's everything you can imagine to a loyal group, or a streamlined version of that to a few, and that's okay, as long as it keeps those fans happy, and keeps Palladium Books going, that's all RIFTS really needs to be, a wacky, break-your-heart for what could-have-been or more fun then you can handle, and confusing stack of softcover.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:These days I avoid playing rifts cause it is not Challenging and it tends to attract munchkins.

I'm curious what RPGs are considered challenging - and what actually makes them that way. Seems more a video game thing than a tabletop; and even then, half of the challenges are just poor design on the part of the company.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Subjugator wrote:Hm.

A level 15 power armor pilot in SAMAS stands a good chance of beating a level 1 glitter boy. Too many dodges, too high of bonuses.

I'd like to see THAT fight!

Well, each would probably have HTH martial arts, so ONLY assuming HTH martial arts and RPA Elite:

SAMAS:
+10 to dodge while flying (and why the hell would he land when fighting a GB, except to move in under cover, which wouldn't really work).
+4 to strike
+4 initiative
12 attacks per round
Crit on 18, 19, 20
Paired weapons
+5 to roll with impact


GB:
+2 to dodge
+2 to strike
+3 to roll with impact
5 attacks per round

I'd call the chances of the SAMAS pretty good. He can (attempt to) dodge all of the attacks of the GB (at +10) and still shoot at the GB seven times per round. God forbid the SAMAS pilot takes HTH assassin or worse...commando...and boxing though.

/Sub

Giant2005 wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Ah, so, assuming the SAMAS is within it's weapon range (so 4000ft), and between it's cruising and max speed (so 180mph), does it get it's bonuses to dodge, and does it get any negatives?

The GB would be at -4 to strike the Samas, -5 if the Samas is taking evasive action. The Samas also gets +5 to dodge from Robot Combat: Elite training in addition to any dodge bonuses from PP, Boxing, Athletics and H2H skills.
The problem with using a Samas though (or at least the default model in the RUE) is that other than hand-held weaponry, he only has two missiles as his integrated armament.
Only integrated weapon systems are immune to the firing wild while moving rule, so his railgun doesn't count. Due to flying and not driving, he cannot take Combat Driving. Due to using a heavy weapon, he cannot use Sharpshooting. A Samas has no ability to mitigate the firing wild while moving penalty.
That means he suffers a -6 penalty to shoot the stationary Glitterboy and even more significantly, cannot make called shots - that means as long as the GB has any amount of cover, he is entirely impervious to any attack from a moving Samas.

The Samas has a better chance of fighting stationary than he does buzzing around but whether stationary or mobile, he isn't going to stand much of a chance against a GB. His best course of action would be to throw the Railgun into a volcano and pull out a Rifle which he has honed Sharpshooting skills with. Then he can be completely mobile and may stand a solid chance against the GB.

Edit: One thing people tend to overlook about the Samas which is a huge advantage and could possibly swing things a little in his favour, is the fact that the Samas have one of the fastest experience tables in the game. To put it in perspective, your average PF Peasant requires 290k xp to get to level 15 and your average Samas pilot requires 289k. In your average encounter, a Samas pilot should have an edge in experience levels.

Esh was nuts if he thinks the SAM would fly at anything other than max speed in combat. Otherwise you pointed out why they might not fly.

At max speed, there would be a -8 to hit the SAMAS if it was taking evasive action. Add in its dodge bonus and it's a pretty hard target to hit. They'd have to roll an 18 to even have a chance of striking the SAMAS, and then he dodges at +10. The GB dodges at +2, and can't really dodge if he wants to shoot the SAM.

...and neither gets the huge dodge penalties for dodging within 10 or 50 feet.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Subjugator wrote:Hm.

A level 15 power armor pilot in SAMAS stands a good chance of beating a level 1 glitter boy. Too many dodges, too high of bonuses.

I'd like to see THAT fight!

Well, each would probably have HTH martial arts, so ONLY assuming HTH martial arts and RPA Elite:

SAMAS:
+10 to dodge while flying (and why the hell would he land when fighting a GB, except to move in under cover, which wouldn't really work).
+4 to strike
+4 initiative
12 attacks per round
Crit on 18, 19, 20
Paired weapons
+5 to roll with impact


GB:
+2 to dodge
+2 to strike
+3 to roll with impact
5 attacks per round

I'd call the chances of the SAMAS pretty good. He can (attempt to) dodge all of the attacks of the GB (at +10) and still shoot at the GB seven times per round. God forbid the SAMAS pilot takes HTH assassin or worse...commando...and boxing though.

/Sub

I don't understand why you would have the Samas be so much more skilled in that scenario?

If their skills are equal, the only differences between the two would be technological and due to the differing Robot training.
The GB armor and elite combat skill nets with: +2 attacks (+1 at 3,7 and 11), +2 init, +4 strike, +2 dodge (+1 more init and attack if he is a descended pilot)
The Samas armor and elite combat skill nets with: +1 attack (+1 at 3,6,9 and 12), +2 init, +2 strike, +5 dodge.
The GB pilot has a -7 penalty (netting to -3, or -1 when aimed + whatever WP bonuses he has at his level) to shoot the Samas.
The Samas has a -6 penalty (netting to -4 + whatever WP bonuses he has at his level) to shoot the GB. If the GB has cover, the Samas has a -∞ penalty to strike.

If the GB is making aimed shots, his -1 strike vs +5 dodge of the Samas equates to the same chance of hitting the target as the Samas's -4 vs +2 dodge. Each situation has a 6 point difference. Although I said it is the same chance, that is only from a successful strike. Even with the same 6 point difference, the advantage falls to the GB due to only having a -1 to strike. That means he only misses completely (no roll to dodge) on a natural 8 or less. The Samas misses completely on a natural 11 or less. The Samas won't have to dodge 40% of the GB's attacks, the GB won't have to dodge 55% of the Samas's attacks - that is a pretty significant difference.

Eashamahel wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's been years since I've played a GB. Not my style, but I always thought they DID have to pause and sink Pylons, and that was the 'limiting' factor of GB. They were walking artillery, not fast moving bots. I'll have to crack open the book, but I've never seen them played like standard armor with out the need to sink the pylons or that they pull the trigger and in the milisecond before the boom gun fires the pylons blast into the ground, the metal leaves the cannons and the pylons retract all three in one action.

Well...

"The blast is so powerful that without the automatic stabilization system, the Glitter Boy would be thrown to the ground and knocked back 30 ft. The automatic stabilization system is a synchronized system of jet thrusters and retractable reinforcement pylons in the legs that hold the armour stead. The pylons and jets fly into action the moment the Boom Gun is fired. "

RMB, pages 221 and 223 under the '1. RG-14 Rapid Acceleration Electromagnetic Rail Gun (1):' section.


The only other information available from the original GB description is in the diagram, which shows how the "Thrusters are synchronized to the gun elevation and side to side sweep. Thrusters fire only when gun is fired'" Which is clearly not true, as they are described as letting the robot do Jet Thruster Assisted leaps and momentarily hover, and the T'elescoping-Anti-Sway Pylons (with laser drill)' diagram, which says "...are activated just before gun is to be fired. Gun will not fire if pylons (one-each leg) are not activated." Which is also often played wrong, as the GB cannot 'choose' to not activate the pylons/fire without them activated. However, there is really no reason not to activate them, as they take no time, and work instantly, the only time you shouldn't be able to is when you are moving at a full run, or in the air (possibly when doing one of those jest assisted leaps you 'can't' do).

Expanding out from the RMB to the Conversion Book, under the "Disadvantages of Playing the Glitter Boy" section, we read that "1. The Glitter Boy is designed for "power,"...Its maximum running speed is a ponderous 60 mph (96kmph), which means that the SAMAS...Can run rings around the GB. This gives the faster units a better chance...from the GB's attacks....Worse yet, the GB must stop, sink pylons into the ground and engage the jet boosters of its recoil supression system in order to fire the boom gun with any measure of accuracy."


So, the Glitter Boys thrusters/pylons engage automatically when fired, don't take up any attacks or 'extra' time past the normal attacks per round, and only require the feet to be on the ground (both, at the same time). It's 'slowness' is actually it's groundbased nature and slow running speed, and there is nothing that is stopping it from walking/jogging/jumping/skipping along while firing, as long as it stops momentarily to fire. Basically, they pull the trigger and in the milisecond before the boom gun fires the pylons blast into the ground, the metal leaves the cannons and the pylons retract all three in one action.


-edit-

Thought I would mention, one of the early limitations of the Glitter Boy was, much like a main battle tank, it's ammunition was very limited. With 100 rounds, it was unlikely to run out of ammunition serving as a support weapon or in a group, but as a single unit it could easily do so, especially in an extended fire fight or over multiple battles, which is why they include the 40 round ammo case option and the time it took to load 40 rounds. The GB had no backup or secondary weapons, unlike most other robots who relied on a main Rail Gun and also had an energy turret which did average to high Energy Rifle damage, which meant that it generally used the Boom Gun in every situation, over a big detriment or unnecessary. It was always a good idea for the GB to 'carry' an extra weapon to use (and I think the GB on the cover of Free Quebec is doing just that, though I believe it is another Railgun, the Deadman's one the Skelebots use), much like a tank has a machine gun besides it's main cannon.

Yes.
The GB's only real limitations with the pylons is that he can't shoot while he's running, and the only way that the GB is "slow" is because it can "only" run at 60 mph.

I think some missed my point.
In most games an 1st level character doesn't stand a chance in combat or adventure with character 5 to 7 levels higher then them.
But in the palladium system, that 1st level character can still be part of the group and in combat with 5 to7 levels higher then them and still be an active part of the adventure.

sexykitty wrote:Advertise, Advertise, Advertise. Also develop a kid friendly version, A novel series, A comic book series, A Facebook page with large breasted women having fun, Cosplay something, A cartoon like one from way back in the day , TURTLE POWER!!!!, Hire Patrick Stewart, Sam Jackson,Morgan Freeman and Bruce Willis to star in a "RIFTS" movie, Make a better conversion system, do away with mdc, Have traveling GM's, Put out a P90X style workout video, Do the HarlemShake, Hire Lil Wayne as your company Manager, Build a Native American Gaming Casino, Create effective MDC to SDC conversion Rules. All things that might help a company trying to generate revenue and a larger fanbase.

hmmm kid friendly that kills teen and adualt focused product lines, in gamming.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's been years since I've played a GB. Not my style, but I always thought they DID have to pause and sink Pylons, and that was the 'limiting' factor of GB. They were walking artillery, not fast moving bots. I'll have to crack open the book, but I've never seen them played like standard armor with out the need to sink the pylons or that they pull the trigger and in the milisecond before the boom gun fires the pylons blast into the ground, the metal leaves the cannons and the pylons retract all three in one action.

Well...

"The blast is so powerful that without the automatic stabilization system, the Glitter Boy would be thrown to the ground and knocked back 30 ft. The automatic stabilization system is a synchronized system of jet thrusters and retractable reinforcement pylons in the legs that hold the armour stead. The pylons and jets fly into action the moment the Boom Gun is fired. "

RMB, pages 221 and 223 under the '1. RG-14 Rapid Acceleration Electromagnetic Rail Gun (1):' section.


The only other information available from the original GB description is in the diagram, which shows how the "Thrusters are synchronized to the gun elevation and side to side sweep. Thrusters fire only when gun is fired'" Which is clearly not true, as they are described as letting the robot do Jet Thruster Assisted leaps and momentarily hover, and the T'elescoping-Anti-Sway Pylons (with laser drill)' diagram, which says "...are activated just before gun is to be fired. Gun will not fire if pylons (one-each leg) are not activated." Which is also often played wrong, as the GB cannot 'choose' to not activate the pylons/fire without them activated. However, there is really no reason not to activate them, as they take no time, and work instantly, the only time you shouldn't be able to is when you are moving at a full run, or in the air (possibly when doing one of those jest assisted leaps you 'can't' do).

Expanding out from the RMB to the Conversion Book, under the "Disadvantages of Playing the Glitter Boy" section, we read that "1. The Glitter Boy is designed for "power,"...Its maximum running speed is a ponderous 60 mph (96kmph), which means that the SAMAS...Can run rings around the GB. This gives the faster units a better chance...from the GB's attacks....Worse yet, the GB must stop, sink pylons into the ground and engage the jet boosters of its recoil supression system in order to fire the boom gun with any measure of accuracy."


So, the Glitter Boys thrusters/pylons engage automatically when fired, don't take up any attacks or 'extra' time past the normal attacks per round, and only require the feet to be on the ground (both, at the same time). It's 'slowness' is actually it's groundbased nature and slow running speed, and there is nothing that is stopping it from walking/jogging/jumping/skipping along while firing, as long as it stops momentarily to fire. Basically, they pull the trigger and in the milisecond before the boom gun fires the pylons blast into the ground, the metal leaves the cannons and the pylons retract all three in one action.


-edit-

Thought I would mention, one of the early limitations of the Glitter Boy was, much like a main battle tank, it's ammunition was very limited. With 100 rounds, it was unlikely to run out of ammunition serving as a support weapon or in a group, but as a single unit it could easily do so, especially in an extended fire fight or over multiple battles, which is why they include the 40 round ammo case option and the time it took to load 40 rounds. The GB had no backup or secondary weapons, unlike most other robots who relied on a main Rail Gun and also had an energy turret which did average to high Energy Rifle damage, which meant that it generally used the Boom Gun in every situation, over a big detriment or unnecessary. It was always a good idea for the GB to 'carry' an extra weapon to use (and I think the GB on the cover of Free Quebec is doing just that, though I believe it is another Railgun, the Deadman's one the Skelebots use), much like a tank has a machine gun besides it's main cannon.

Yes.
The GB's only real limitations with the pylons is that he can't shoot while he's running, and the only way that the GB is "slow" is because it can "only" run at 60 mph.

The way it's been written in the past, it's open to inturpretation. As a limitation, our groups, ever since the core book have required the pause and sinking of the pylons to take an action. Then you could shoot to your hearts content. if you wanted to move you retracted the pylons and toe clips and moved till you wanted to shoot the boomgun again, where in it'd take an action to anchor. Other wise one wonders how you possibly 'could' shoot the boom gun with OUT being anchored and end up flying backawards. If it's just 100% assumed to be automatic and free, like you said you could do it at any point, when not moving at your max speed, which isn't how it reads.

looking at it I can see how some would read it the other way, that it is just 100% fully automatic but with as fast as actions are and how this armor was different from all others and it needed those pylons sunk, we've always just said it was one action to sink um then shoot till you need to move. By always, I mean, since the first week the original Rifts came out, till now. In our groups, in two different states and more than one convention, I've never played it differently. it's never even come up. Now, I don't traditionally play GB but they come up pretty regular with others.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's been years since I've played a GB. Not my style, but I always thought they DID have to pause and sink Pylons, and that was the 'limiting' factor of GB. They were walking artillery, not fast moving bots. I'll have to crack open the book, but I've never seen them played like standard armor with out the need to sink the pylons or that they pull the trigger and in the milisecond before the boom gun fires the pylons blast into the ground, the metal leaves the cannons and the pylons retract all three in one action.

Well...

"The blast is so powerful that without the automatic stabilization system, the Glitter Boy would be thrown to the ground and knocked back 30 ft. The automatic stabilization system is a synchronized system of jet thrusters and retractable reinforcement pylons in the legs that hold the armour stead. The pylons and jets fly into action the moment the Boom Gun is fired. "

RMB, pages 221 and 223 under the '1. RG-14 Rapid Acceleration Electromagnetic Rail Gun (1):' section.


The only other information available from the original GB description is in the diagram, which shows how the "Thrusters are synchronized to the gun elevation and side to side sweep. Thrusters fire only when gun is fired'" Which is clearly not true, as they are described as letting the robot do Jet Thruster Assisted leaps and momentarily hover, and the T'elescoping-Anti-Sway Pylons (with laser drill)' diagram, which says "...are activated just before gun is to be fired. Gun will not fire if pylons (one-each leg) are not activated." Which is also often played wrong, as the GB cannot 'choose' to not activate the pylons/fire without them activated. However, there is really no reason not to activate them, as they take no time, and work instantly, the only time you shouldn't be able to is when you are moving at a full run, or in the air (possibly when doing one of those jest assisted leaps you 'can't' do).

Expanding out from the RMB to the Conversion Book, under the "Disadvantages of Playing the Glitter Boy" section, we read that "1. The Glitter Boy is designed for "power,"...Its maximum running speed is a ponderous 60 mph (96kmph), which means that the SAMAS...Can run rings around the GB. This gives the faster units a better chance...from the GB's attacks....Worse yet, the GB must stop, sink pylons into the ground and engage the jet boosters of its recoil supression system in order to fire the boom gun with any measure of accuracy."


So, the Glitter Boys thrusters/pylons engage automatically when fired, don't take up any attacks or 'extra' time past the normal attacks per round, and only require the feet to be on the ground (both, at the same time). It's 'slowness' is actually it's groundbased nature and slow running speed, and there is nothing that is stopping it from walking/jogging/jumping/skipping along while firing, as long as it stops momentarily to fire. Basically, they pull the trigger and in the milisecond before the boom gun fires the pylons blast into the ground, the metal leaves the cannons and the pylons retract all three in one action.


-edit-

Thought I would mention, one of the early limitations of the Glitter Boy was, much like a main battle tank, it's ammunition was very limited. With 100 rounds, it was unlikely to run out of ammunition serving as a support weapon or in a group, but as a single unit it could easily do so, especially in an extended fire fight or over multiple battles, which is why they include the 40 round ammo case option and the time it took to load 40 rounds. The GB had no backup or secondary weapons, unlike most other robots who relied on a main Rail Gun and also had an energy turret which did average to high Energy Rifle damage, which meant that it generally used the Boom Gun in every situation, over a big detriment or unnecessary. It was always a good idea for the GB to 'carry' an extra weapon to use (and I think the GB on the cover of Free Quebec is doing just that, though I believe it is another Railgun, the Deadman's one the Skelebots use), much like a tank has a machine gun besides it's main cannon.

Yes.
The GB's only real limitations with the pylons is that he can't shoot while he's running, and the only way that the GB is "slow" is because it can "only" run at 60 mph.

The way it's been written in the past, it's open to inturpretation. As a limitation, our groups, ever since the core book have required the pause and sinking of the pylons to take an action. Then you could shoot to your hearts content. if you wanted to move you retracted the pylons and toe clips and moved till you wanted to shoot the boomgun again, where in it'd take an action to anchor. Other wise one wonders how you possibly 'could' shoot the boom gun with OUT being anchored and end up flying backawards. If it's just 100% assumed to be automatic and free, like you said you could do it at any point, when not moving at your max speed, which isn't how it reads.

looking at it I can see how some would read it the other way, that it is just 100% fully automatic but with as fast as actions are and how this armor was different from all others and it needed those pylons sunk, we've always just said it was one action to sink um then shoot till you need to move. By always, I mean, since the first week the original Rifts came out, till now. In our groups, in two different states and more than one convention, I've never played it differently. it's never even come up. Now, I don't traditionally play GB but they come up pretty regular with others.

When we first started playing Rifts, we were using HU characters that got rifted in from another campaign. My character had the create force fields super power and once we learned how GB were dependent on pylons, my first action against a GB was to create an MDC force field on the ground so that the pylons couldn't dig into the ground. Of course, that didn't work if the GB was already "dug in".

--flatline

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:I think some missed my point.
In most games an 1st level character doesn't stand a chance in combat or adventure with character 5 to 7 levels higher then them.
But in the palladium system, that 1st level character can still be part of the group and in combat with 5 to7 levels higher then them and still be an active part of the adventure.

Or, in some more (or less) extreme examples a 15th level character can't even effectively participate in combats with 1st level charactes. If you mean that OCCs/RCCs are more important than levels for combat ability in RIFTS, then I agree with you entirely. But I'm assuming you aren't saying this as support that different 'classes' in RIFTS are more balanced (by level, or in any way) with each other than in other game systems. As I am sure you know, one of the easiest ways to balance games is with character levels, this is an adventure for characters level 5-8, my character is level 7, can I play in your game, ect. RIFTS has nothing resembling that, as (you say) many first level characters can easily participate in higher level games, and many higher level characters can't compete in lower level games.

As an aside, this is probably the single biggest barrier to creating pre-made missions/adventures. There is no guideline you can use to suggest/level it to different character groups. It can't be 'an adventure for 4-6 players, levels 2-5', because those 4 players could be a headhunter, a city rat, a scientist, and a Wilderness Scout (lets say all level 5, huzzah!), or they could be 6 Godlings/Cosmo Knights/Dragons/Glitterboys, ect.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

The way it's been written in the past, it's open to inturpretation. As a limitation, our groups, ever since the core book have required the pause and sinking of the pylons to take an action.

I don't have anything against running it that way, I started a whole thread about what changes everyone makes to the world or RIFTS, but what about the description indicates it takes an actual 'action'/attack to do so? Also, since I don't have an R:UE rulebook, and I remember an expanded section on the GB, you say in the past it was written in a way that was open to interpretation, Is there some new explanation that says how it works differently from the RMB?


There are a whole slew of questions about what the Pylons can even dig into. They have 'laser drills' that can dig through rock, dirt, ect, but can they even penetrate MDC materials? Would it take actions for it to do so, or does it even matter? Maybe it's a super powered laser that can go right through forcefields? Or maybe it can't punch through solid concrete?

Eashamahel wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:I think some missed my point.
In most games an 1st level character doesn't stand a chance in combat or adventure with character 5 to 7 levels higher then them.
But in the palladium system, that 1st level character can still be part of the group and in combat with 5 to7 levels higher then them and still be an active part of the adventure.

Or, in some more (or less) extreme examples a 15th level character can't even effectively participate in combats with 1st level charactes. If you mean that OCCs/RCCs are more important than levels for combat ability in RIFTS, then I agree with you entirely. But I'm assuming you aren't saying this as support that different 'classes' in RIFTS are more balanced (by level, or in any way) with each other than in other game systems. As I am sure you know, one of the easiest ways to balance games is with character levels, this is an adventure for characters level 5-8, my character is level 7, can I play in your game, ect. RIFTS has nothing resembling that, as (you say) many first level characters can easily participate in higher level games, and many higher level characters can't compete in lower level games.

As an aside, this is probably the single biggest barrier to creating pre-made missions/adventures. There is no guideline you can use to suggest/level it to different character groups. It can't be 'an adventure for 4-6 players, levels 2-5', because those 4 players could be a headhunter, a city rat, a scientist, and a Wilderness Scout (lets say all level 5, huzzah!), or they could be 6 Godlings/Cosmo Knights/Dragons/Glitterboys, ect.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

The way it's been written in the past, it's open to inturpretation. As a limitation, our groups, ever since the core book have required the pause and sinking of the pylons to take an action.

I don't have anything against running it that way, I started a whole thread about what changes everyone makes to the world or RIFTS, but what about the description indicates it takes an actual 'action'/attack to do so? Also, since I don't have an R:UE rulebook, and I remember an expanded section on the GB, you say in the past it was written in a way that was open to interpretation, Is there some new explanation that says how it works differently from the RMB?


There are a whole slew of questions about what the Pylons can even dig into. They have 'laser drills' that can dig through rock, dirt, ect, but can they even penetrate MDC materials? Would it take actions for it to do so, or does it even matter? Maybe it's a super powered laser that can go right through forcefields? Or maybe it can't punch through solid concrete?

I had the books open last night, but it got late and I just crashed vs typing a big thing. Basicly in one of the books under "Limitations of the GB" it states that they indeed have to stop, sink pylons, then aim and shoot the boom gun. In other places they state that if you don't sink pylons you get thrown back for a distance. If said sinking of Pylons was automatic and assumed as a free action, then it's automatic and that simply wouldn't/couldn't come up as it'd just happen all the time.

As to answer your other question, about going through MDC materials, it's actually addressed at least in part, when talking about GB under water. It talks about if they're on the hull of a ship it takes 1d4+3 (( or +1.... but something)) tries to hammer their way through the hull with the Pylons to acheive stable shooting platform, and it sounds like the ringing of a gong inside the ship as the pylons try and bore through and once they DO get in, they can cause breeches in the ship.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The GB's only real limitations with the pylons is that he can't shoot while he's running, and the only way that the GB is "slow" is because it can "only" run at 60 mph.

The way it's been written in the past, it's open to inturpretation. As a limitation, our groups, ever since the core book have required the pause and sinking of the pylons to take an action.

It's always said that the pylons engage instantly then the gun is fired.
Rifts 223
The pylons and jets fly into action the moment the Boom Gun is Fired.
A lot of people just played it wrong.

Other wise one wonders how you possibly 'could' shoot the boom gun with OUT being anchored and end up flying backawards.

The pylons could be damaged or destroyed.
BUT you have that part wrong too.
The exact quote (Rifts 219) is:
The blast is so powerful that without the automatic stabilization system, the Glitter Boy would be thrown to the ground and knocked back 30 feet.

Note that it doesn't say "without the pylons," but rather "the automatic stabilization system."

Rifts 223 defines the term:
The automatic stabilization system is a synchronized system of jet thrusters and retractable reinforcement pylons in the legs that hold the armor steady.

So it's not that the GB gets tossed back 30' if the pylons aren't in place, it's that the GB would get hypothetically tossed back 30' if both the pylons AND the recoil dampening thrusters are inoperable.

If the pylons aren't working, but the recoil thrusters ARE working, then the GB doesn't get tossed 30'.
We know this, because CB1 9 tells us that one of the times that Shooting Wild occurs is:
The subsequent blast after the first burst form a Glitter Boy's boom gun if the Glitter Boy is NOT secured to the ground

So if the GB isn't secured to the ground with the pylons, the recoil dampening thrusters skill keep him upright... but he's shaken up enough that after that first shot, every shot he takes will be Wild.
(unless, presumably, he spends an attack steadying himself or whatever.)

looking at it I can see how some would read it the other way, that it is just 100% fully automatic but with as fast as actions are and how this armor was different from all others and it needed those pylons sunk, we've always just said it was one action to sink um then shoot till you need to move. By always, I mean, since the first week the original Rifts came out, till now. In our groups, in two different states and more than one convention, I've never played it differently. it's never even come up. Now, I don't traditionally play GB but they come up pretty regular with others.

I played the C-12 incorrectly for over a decade, and there are probably still some rules that I'm wrong about without being aware of it.
Such is Palladium's system, unfortunately.

Giant2005 wrote:I don't understand why you would have the Samas be so much more skilled in that scenario?

Because the Glitter Boy is first level and the SAMAS pilot is fifteenth level? That's for starters.

/Sub

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The GB's only real limitations with the pylons is that he can't shoot while he's running, and the only way that the GB is "slow" is because it can "only" run at 60 mph.

The way it's been written in the past, it's open to inturpretation. As a limitation, our groups, ever since the core book have required the pause and sinking of the pylons to take an action.

It's always said that the pylons engage instantly then the gun is fired.
Rifts 223
The pylons and jets fly into action the moment the Boom Gun is Fired.
A lot of people just played it wrong.

Other wise one wonders how you possibly 'could' shoot the boom gun with OUT being anchored and end up flying backawards.

The pylons could be damaged or destroyed.
BUT you have that part wrong too.
The exact quote (Rifts 219) is:
The blast is so powerful that without the automatic stabilization system, the Glitter Boy would be thrown to the ground and knocked back 30 feet.

Note that it doesn't say "without the pylons," but rather "the automatic stabilization system."

Rifts 223 defines the term:
The automatic stabilization system is a synchronized system of jet thrusters and retractable reinforcement pylons in the legs that hold the armor steady.

So it's not that the GB gets tossed back 30' if the pylons aren't in place, it's that the GB would get hypothetically tossed back 30' if both the pylons AND the recoil dampening thrusters are inoperable.

If the pylons aren't working, but the recoil thrusters ARE working, then the GB doesn't get tossed 30'.
We know this, because CB1 9 tells us that one of the times that Shooting Wild occurs is:
The subsequent blast after the first burst form a Glitter Boy's boom gun if the Glitter Boy is NOT secured to the ground

So if the GB isn't secured to the ground with the pylons, the recoil dampening thrusters skill keep him upright... but he's shaken up enough that after that first shot, every shot he takes will be Wild.
(unless, presumably, he spends an attack steadying himself or whatever.)

looking at it I can see how some would read it the other way, that it is just 100% fully automatic but with as fast as actions are and how this armor was different from all others and it needed those pylons sunk, we've always just said it was one action to sink um then shoot till you need to move. By always, I mean, since the first week the original Rifts came out, till now. In our groups, in two different states and more than one convention, I've never played it differently. it's never even come up. Now, I don't traditionally play GB but they come up pretty regular with others.

I played the C-12 incorrectly for over a decade, and there are probably still some rules that I'm wrong about without being aware of it.
Such is Palladium's system, unfortunately.

I don't think I'm "Wrong" I think, as I stated, it's open to interpretation. I don't have the books infront of me but just going off the quotes you provided you need both the jets and the pylons not to be thrown. As I said I had the books open last night but it was late and I just crashed. I think it's in FQ where it distinctly says under the limitations, that the Glitter boy has to "Stop, sink the pylons, -then aim- and fire the boom gun." not just "Pull the trigger an assume the pylons are going to drill down and find something hard enough to secure you to, in the milisecond before the gun fires." if noting else the pylons would work as quick as any other weapon fired. I.E. an action to deploy.

Why would it take less time for a laser firing telescoping pylon to shoot down out of a robots feet, than it would simply take to pull a trigger?

My personal favorite was a GB jumping from a fling transport and tring to shoot down at the ground. Cand you say whip lash. Now he probaly could have easly made the landing using his jet thrusters.

Pepsi Jedi wrote: it's open to interpretation.

No, it's really, really, really not.
And since I've pointed out why and how, I guess I can leave it at that.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote: it's open to interpretation.

No, it's really, really, really not.
And since I've pointed out why and how, I guess I can leave it at that.

And yet, I read it differently than you do, so it really really is, even if you don't agree. I've played rifts since the week it came out. I've been in dozens of games over the decades. I've never played in a game where it did NOT Take one action to stop and plant pylons and toeclips before fireing.

So there is evidence, with me alone, that some people read it differently. Thus open to interpretation. You interpret it differently. That's cool. But you can't just wave your hand and say "Nope didn't happen." When I'm telling you I've seen/played it that way dozens of times.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote: it's open to interpretation.

No, it's really, really, really not.
And since I've pointed out why and how, I guess I can leave it at that.

And yet, I read it differently than you do, so it really really is, even if you don't agree. I've played rifts since the week it came out. I've been in dozens of games over the decades. I've never played in a game where it did NOT Take one action to stop and plant pylons and toeclips before fireing.

So there is evidence, with me alone, that some people read it differently. Thus open to interpretation. You interpret it differently. That's cool. But you can't just wave your hand and say "Nope didn't happen." When I'm telling you I've seen/played it that way dozens of times.

lol
Dude, people interpreting things wrong doesn't make something "open to interpretation," except in the loosest, most meaningless sense of ther term.
Just because you've seen people playing it wrong doesn't make them right.

I played Rifts fifteen years before it came out. I read ahead in time and figured out what Kev was going to publish and played it. That sentence doesn't add or subtract jack to whether or not I'm correct.

On to reality now.

I've played a lot of games in a lot of places with a lot of different people. No game in which I've ever participated or seen played included someone taking two actions to fire a boom gun. This includes at the Open House, when the games were run by the authors of the books.

KC is correct.

/Sub

Oh man, this is a good example of extreme rules confusion that sometimes comes up (that and the C-12! Man, I was 50/50 on that for a long time!) in RIFTS. Not that the rules aren't actually THERE to be played right (the C-12 says it fires a 5 round burst, it does 2D6, a 5 round burst would do 4D6, the same as the second 'setting' on the gun), just that they are often so vague people play them wrong without (possibly ever) realizing it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote: it's open to interpretation.

No, it's really, really, really not.
And since I've pointed out why and how, I guess I can leave it at that.

And yet, I read it differently than you do, so it really really is, even if you don't agree. I've played rifts since the week it came out. I've been in dozens of games over the decades. I've never played in a game where it did NOT Take one action to stop and plant pylons and toeclips before fireing.

So there is evidence, with me alone, that some people read it differently. Thus open to interpretation. You interpret it differently. That's cool. But you can't just wave your hand and say "Nope didn't happen." When I'm telling you I've seen/played it that way dozens of times.

lol
Dude, people interpreting things wrong doesn't make something "open to interpretation," except in the loosest, most meaningless sense of ther term.
Just because you've seen people playing it wrong doesn't make them right.

And yet the books themselves say "Their maximum speed is 60 mph (96 km) and they must stop, effectively root themselves to the ground, and aim before firing their, albeit powerful, Boom Gun." You find this under "GB Weaknesses and Vulnerabilities" Page 74. Free Quebec. Please note how it says they must stop. "And" aim.... --before-- firing their boom gun. Stop. Root. Aim. -Before- Firing.

Not pull the trigger while instantaneously being rooted with an action that bores pylons into the ground faster than you or anyone else in the world can pull a trigger.

Page 222 of the RMB has an illustration of the pylons in question with an explanation beside it. "Anti-sway pylons and toe hook are activated just before the gun is to be fired"

Note that sentence. "Just before" not "As" and "The gun -is to be fired- not 'As it's being fired.

It also says in that same box that the gun will simply not fire if pylons (one-each leg) are not activated. Indicating you need both pylons down before it will shoot.

Thus, two instances in two books. The original RMB, and later in WB22 that indicate my way of thinking, instead of yours.

It can be read both ways. You going 'You're wrong' is just your opinion, based on how you read it.