Forums of the Megaverse®

Armorlord wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:so tell me again why i would want to own a series of books where the entire premise of the books is something i have to retcon, and all the specifics of the books have to be ignored?

You don't have to retcon anything, you can flesh it out more if you'd like, or leave it as is. If you choose to alter the timeline, that's your business, but it is good to know what you are changing.
Looking at the threads on the various angles, at the end of the day, even played to the hilt, you are looking at a similar result, a surprisingly even fight that can be tipped by fate or chance for a more decisive and dramatic end. Both sides had tricks to pull and counters. Though it is fairly well implied that, without the Quebec front to deal with, the CS ultimately had Tolkeen outmatched.

except that the one almost universal problem people have with the series is that however they think it should have went, it shouldn't have went the way the books say it is. if almost everyone agrees that the way it was written was not the way it should have gone, why would we flesh it out or leave it as is?

why would i want to own a book that sets the default to something that almost everyone agrees is complete and utter nonsense? it would be better for everyone to not own the book at all, because at least then we wouldn't have to fight against any preconceived notion of what the "official" events were.

we would probably still have all the arguments over who would win in a fight, but at least we wouldn't have the completely ridiculous official version sitting in the background telling us that the CS mothballed enough old-style SAMAS to outfit every single CS soldier that was involved in the tolkeen campaign (and if you include the ones that they just handed off to the ISS to use as paperweights, there were enough suits for *both* sides, plus a bunch of spares), or that tolkeen decided that open battle against an enemy with vastly superior numbers, generally longer range, and generally superior damage capabilities (magic does many things very well, better than technology by a long shot. damaging stuff is not one of those things).

when you have a gigantic pile of nonsense being flung in your face, yes you could leave it as is, or expand on it... but why on earth would you want to?

Just as an additional note, Everyone is going to have their own 'least worth owning' criteria, and some people are just going to judge books solely on personal taste, but as far as least worth owning WHEN THEY CAME OUT, the Siege on Tolkeen books have to be the absolute number one.

When every other book came out, it was immediately usefull, you could go there, use the information, get the gear, fight the monsters, ect.

When Siege came out, and it was going to be a series of books released over time, EVERYONE I knew thought it was an awesome idea, because we were all going to start at book 1 and play through the Siege as it was released, because, you know, that's how it would work, right? It's going to be released over time, and it's going to detail the Siege chronologically. Except, besides the actual battles, NOTHING was in a reasonable order! Characters, MAJOR characters, who were constantly mentioned, were not introduced until the end of the whole thing! How many people just wrote up their own King Creed, for example? Seeing as how there were basically NO key NPCs from Tolkeen until the whole thing was pretty much over. Or, a year into the battle, when Tolkeen releases the Daemonix, and everyone of the players in the game starts looking around and scratching their heads, wondering when this all happened and how no one noticed the massive industry of making giant magical-bionics for them. Heck, even more apparent, how many GMs were left scratching their heads when they realized that they had NO idea what Tolkeen was actually supposed to look like/be like while playing the Siege?

I don't know a single person who tried to play the Siege as it came out who didn't just give up, as every book that came afterwards in the series seemed to require you to retcon your previous games, and after they all waited for the books to come out and get the info they needed from the LAST book to do things in the BEGINNING of the story, everyone knew the ending, so the chance of capitalizing on the excitement of doing something for the 'first time' AS the books came out was gone.

I don't know if there's a useless book... although some books have some pretty useless things, like Laser Bows and Devastators.

Vrykolas2k wrote:I don't know if there's a useless book... although some books have some pretty useless things, like Laser Bows and Devastators.

lol Laser bows are hugely USEFUL. They're just also silly when you read up what they are and how they work. Shooting MD lasers for cheep cheep cheep is greatly 'useful'.

Eashamahel wrote:Just as an additional note, Everyone is going to have their own 'least worth owning' criteria, and some people are just going to judge books solely on personal taste, but as far as least worth owning WHEN THEY CAME OUT, the Siege on Tolkeen books have to be the absolute number one.

When every other book came out, it was immediately usefull, you could go there, use the information, get the gear, fight the monsters, ect.

When Siege came out, and it was going to be a series of books released over time, EVERYONE I knew thought it was an awesome idea, because we were all going to start at book 1 and play through the Siege as it was released, because, you know, that's how it would work, right? It's going to be released over time, and it's going to detail the Siege chronologically. Except, besides the actual battles, NOTHING was in a reasonable order! Characters, MAJOR characters, who were constantly mentioned, were not introduced until the end of the whole thing! How many people just wrote up their own King Creed, for example? Seeing as how there were basically NO key NPCs from Tolkeen until the whole thing was pretty much over. Or, a year into the battle, when Tolkeen releases the Daemonix, and everyone of the players in the game starts looking around and scratching their heads, wondering when this all happened and how no one noticed the massive industry of making giant magical-bionics for them. Heck, even more apparent, how many GMs were left scratching their heads when they realized that they had NO idea what Tolkeen was actually supposed to look like/be like while playing the Siege?

I don't know a single person who tried to play the Siege as it came out who didn't just give up, as every book that came afterwards in the series seemed to require you to retcon your previous games, and after they all waited for the books to come out and get the info they needed from the LAST book to do things in the BEGINNING of the story, everyone knew the ending, so the chance of capitalizing on the excitement of doing something for the 'first time' AS the books came out was gone.

This

Absolutely right on, both posts, but I just quoted this one as a sort of shorthand, although I'll be talking of both.

Look I'm a CS fan, and while I would argue that many of the Worldbooks/Sourcebooks, etc, had already told us the conclusion of the Tolkeen war was a long forgotten thing( IE the CS wins), the way the books were written makes that win not only unbelievable, but utterly insane!

The CS has many things, but logically they don't have magical replicators like in Star Trek where they can just replicate SAMAS, Body Armor, Etc at will. One could argue that with Lone Star they could just clone troops, but the gear for those troops? Seriously?

The SoT series also utterly ignored the Xit book. Everything we'd learned about them, as well as the Metaplot of the Lazlo War was tossed out, so that the CS could magically pull a win out.

And as has been pointed out, the SoT was unplayable as it was published, because we lacked the info, NPC's and other needed things to run the campaign, for whichever side you were on. If we tried to play it, we had to retcon after each book was released. Thats what makes these books so utterly useless. Everything in them that is useful in a game is in the Book of magic, so why bother buying them? The Cyberknight book? Not for me, the whole Anti-tech thing they were suddenly given made no sense, since they are a group that we'd been told combated supernatural monsters, demons, and other nastiness. Suddenly their ENTIRE focus was changed to be Anti-CS, since they were now Anti-Tech wannabe Jedi's.

The only other book that ties for most useless is Africa, which I hope gets a revision one day.

Not a CS fan, really, though yes they SHOULD have won...
But Tolkeen should have had more of an aggressive stance as well, when the war finally started.
I'm not going into the whole thing, it's a dead horse that's been beaten into atoms.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:I don't know if there's a useless book... although some books have some pretty useless things, like Laser Bows and Devastators.

lol Laser bows are hugely USEFUL. They're just also silly when you read up what they are and how they work. Shooting MD lasers for cheep cheep cheep is greatly 'useful'.

Laser bow energy pump plus functional gear box and motor equals endless power... especially if you rebuild the energy pump with more durable parts... Killer Cyborg's got a write up in one of his threads for this kind of thing.

Yeah, the laser bow is about the most advanced thing ever made on RIFTS earth. And it's ridiculous. We should all do our part and ignore it as best we can.

Wormwood could easily rank near the top of the 'least worth owning' books, as not only is it a place separated from the main story of RIFTS, but unlike places like Phaseword, you can't transfer much of the gear/items from there to anywhere else. Still though, I think most people feel it is worth owning just by being very interesting and unique, and it does provide several very neat demons and D-Bees which can be used elsewhere.

Eashamahel wrote:Yeah, the laser bow is about the most advanced thing ever made on RIFTS earth. And it's ridiculous. We should all do our part and ignore it as best we can.

Wormwood could easily rank near the top of the 'least worth owning' books, as not only is it a place separated from the main story of RIFTS, but unlike places like Phaseword, you can't transfer much of the gear/items from there to anywhere else. Still though, I think most people feel it is worth owning just by being very interesting and unique, and it does provide several very neat demons and D-Bees which can be used elsewhere.

People seem to either love Wormwood or not be interested in it at all.

I find Wormwood to be such a compelling setting that I treat all other Palladium books as potential sourcebooks for Wormwood.

--flatline

Personaly..i love wormwood, other than humans being able to fist fight till exhaustion its all around well made, the art all works togeather. The setting is complete and the enemy and powers are uniquely their own.

Well, to be fair, most fist fights in our world end with exhaustion, which is why rounds and such were invented.

I love Wormwood, one of my favourite things produced by Palladium, but it's worth comes from it's own value, not from it's value to the setting of RIFTS.


Here's some thoughts on another book, one of my all time favourites and a hugely sentimental one for me as well, Lonestar.

Lonestar should probably rank pretty high up there on the 'least worth owning' table, and a lot of arguments can be made as to why this isn't the case (and I would make a lot of those myself), but seriously consider the book with me.

-It starts off with a rundown of the Lonestar Complex. Not detailed enough to actually DO anything in/have an adventure without making most of it up yourself, but detailed enough to explain that PC's should probably never even go inside of it, let alone go anywhere where the important stuff is.

-Next we have a very (good and) indepth look at dog boys, their system of creation, the history of them and dogs in society at large, their system of training and important notes about dogs. None of this is important. It's all really neat, and I love it as I love dog boys, but most PCs have no use for it.

-Then we have the Dog Pack RCC. Now, I don't know if this is in the R:UE book, but if it is, well, you don't need Lonestar for that then.

-Now the bulk of the book. We have Dog Boy Special Forces, spefically Kill Hounds, who we are told were used to great extent in the Juicer Uprising. It's been awhile since I read JU, but I don't remember them being in it, so by the time Lonestar came out, to tell us that Kill Hounds were really effective, the event had already passed. Fine for playing backwards, but this is a re-occuring theme with RIFTS in general, that information is presented later that was important/needed before, and is just kind of inserted backwards into time.

-Now, after that we get several mutant options, all of which are neat, and a new power armour. More or less, NONE OF THEM will be mentioned again. Sure, there is talk about them being deployed on the Tolkeen front and such, and you can work that into your games, but when the war actually takes place, to my memory, we get no reference to squads of battle cats or kill cats being used to hunt mages, ect.

-The CS Power Armour introduced in this book, the Death Wing, is absolutely useless. Not because it's not neat, but because like the CS main battle tank and airplane introduced in Mercenaries, immediately after this book it ceases to exist, never to be mentioned again in CS unit compositions, army breakdowns, character descriptions, or pretty much anything.

-We then get 20+ pages of NPCs, whose worth is all up to the individual player/GM, but it is worth noting that more than half of them are part of the top super-secret lonestar story, which it is extremely unlikely characters will ever interact with. Kashbrook and the other military personnel are good though.

-And finally at the end we get the Pecos Empire, which is actually a pretty good breakdown and bit of information, though it's worth noting there are no mention of Orcs anywhere in it, despite them being said to make up a huge percentage of the Pecos Bandits in the conversion book, continuing Palladiums system of just ignoring previous books. There are solid maps, place descriptions, geography and other good pieces of info here as well.

-And finally, we get a reprint of the Simvan, Brodkil, and Psi-Stalker, as well as a new OCC, the Pecos Bandit, which I am SURE everyone was super excited to get and immediately added it to their list of important OCCs to include for potential players, and didn't just throw it into the 'wasn't there something close enough already' category.


So, despite some solid info and neat ideas, the majority of the book is either effectively 'behind the scenes' stuff that doesn't come up in game, or immediately dissapears into the 'never to be talked about again' void that so much does in the world of RIFTS.

Eashamahel wrote:So, despite some solid info and neat ideas, the majority of the book is either effectively 'behind the scenes' stuff that doesn't come up in game, or immediately dissapears into the 'never to be talked about again' void that so much does in the world of RIFTS.

The behind the scenes stuff is usually the stuff I look for in a book. Those are the details that give the setting depth and allows the GM to create a consistent setting. Of course, when the books contradict other books and even themselves, then the GM has to do some work to smooth things over.

--flatline

Yeah, I would definately buy books that were complosed only of setting and behind the scene, without a single OCC or piece of gear in them, one of the reasons I like Shemarrian Nation so much, but at that point it's a very specialized product, as it isn't really NEEDED by anyone other than the GM, and not really worth owning for most from a playability standpoint.

Eashamahel wrote:Yeah, I would definately buy books that were complosed only of setting and behind the scene, without a single OCC or piece of gear in them, one of the reasons I like Shemarrian Nation so much, but at that point it's a very specialized product, as it isn't really NEEDED by anyone other than the GM, and not really worth owning for most from a playability standpoint.

Erm, the Shemarrian Nation has gear and different types of Shemarrians, all of which can be PCs.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Yeah, I would definately buy books that were complosed only of setting and behind the scene, without a single OCC or piece of gear in them, one of the reasons I like Shemarrian Nation so much, but at that point it's a very specialized product, as it isn't really NEEDED by anyone other than the GM, and not really worth owning for most from a playability standpoint.

Erm, the Shemarrian Nation has gear and different types of Shemarrians, all of which can be PCs.

Do the Shemarrians actually know that they're a product of ARCHIE-3, or are they given such a complete fake history that even they don't know that they're just robots fronting for a super-AI?

Nightmask wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Yeah, I would definately buy books that were complosed only of setting and behind the scene, without a single OCC or piece of gear in them, one of the reasons I like Shemarrian Nation so much, but at that point it's a very specialized product, as it isn't really NEEDED by anyone other than the GM, and not really worth owning for most from a playability standpoint.

Erm, the Shemarrian Nation has gear and different types of Shemarrians, all of which can be PCs.

Do the Shemarrians actually know that they're a product of ARCHIE-3, or are they given such a complete fake history that even they don't know that they're just robots fronting for a super-AI?

If i remember right....no they do not.

Nightmask wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Yeah, I would definately buy books that were complosed only of setting and behind the scene, without a single OCC or piece of gear in them, one of the reasons I like Shemarrian Nation so much, but at that point it's a very specialized product, as it isn't really NEEDED by anyone other than the GM, and not really worth owning for most from a playability standpoint.

Erm, the Shemarrian Nation has gear and different types of Shemarrians, all of which can be PCs.

Do the Shemarrians actually know that they're a product of ARCHIE-3, or are they given such a complete fake history that even they don't know that they're just robots fronting for a super-AI?

Darnit, just deleted my whole response. Okay, second try.


The Shemarrian Nation has gear.

Not really. The only gear available in the book are the different types of Shemarrian Guns, and besides the hunting rifle, EVERY one of them has, listed under Black Market Cost "Not Available", with the first entry getting the entire explanation:

Black Market Cost: Not Available. No Shemarrian Rail Gun has ever found its way on to the Black Market. This is because the weapon is never given up by its owner and its destroyed when the owner is destroyed (self-destructs/explodes). The tiny number of people who have manged to procure the weapon usually prefer to keep them for themselves. Furthermore, all Shemarrians will take the weapon (or any Shemarrian weapon) from anyone they see in possession of one."

Whereas all of the weapons afterwards get the shortened:

"Black Market Cost: Not Available. None of these fabulous guns have ever found their way on to the Black Market."


So, although it is techically possible to have one, they are not presented as 'gear' that player characters should be able to get/acquire in the same fashion as Northern Gun, Triax or even CS equipment is. Beyond that, the railguns have ammunition that is not going to be found anywhere (which is why it states that if trying to sell one "the weapon might sell for under 10,000 credits as an alien device with limited useability."), and the energy weapons do not use any known style of clip.

As you can see, not really a book with 'gear' in it.




As for the question of do the Shemarrians know the truth about themselves, that is dependant on the type of A.I. they have (I had all the page numbers referenced the first time, but this time I'm just going to do the quotes). A small percentage (30% of total) of Shemarians possess a Neural Intelligence. Those who do not are robots in the very real sense of the word, they do not 'think' they are Shemarrians, they are just doing what they are programmed to do. They have set responses and behaviours to situations, and don't really 'believe' anything.

"Shemarrians are what they are programmed to be. Nothing more."

"Any holes or inconsistencies in what is seen of the (fictional) Shemarrian society and culture are just more mysteries outsiders don't undersand and worry about. (The androids don't even notice anything amiss, contradictory or inconsistant, because it is not in their programming."

There are many examples like this, but the point is that most (70%) Shemarrians do not 'believe' they are Shemarrians, they are just following their programming, so they don't seen anything Amiss with walking off the line at one of Archie's factories, they don't actually believe there are 'healing caves' where they are fixed, they are not in touch with nature or it's protectors, they don't actually think there is a Shemarrian city in the dinosaur swamps, ect. Plus, they don't see anything strange or wrong about working with other Archie bots, guarding mines, ect because they are just executing a program.

The N.I. ones are a little different, as the introduction of it says "A Neural Intelligence robot literally thinks on its own, and thus the robot can make its own decisions, draw its own conclusions,...ect". Under the description it states that "there is a chance some (10-20%) of the N.I. Shemarrians go rogue, believing they really are Shemarrians, and start behaving independant of their programming." So some percentage of the N.I. actually do believe that they are REALLY shemarrians, with their own culture, history, ect, and this could lead to problems, as they may have trouble with why Archie All-Purpose bots are fixing them in huge underground bunkers, or come to realize that they are not really bionic augmented and whatnot, but if any become a real problem, a Spinster could easily just shut it down and Archie could re-program it with little difficulty.


So, no, most Shemarrians do not 'know' that their history is a ruse, but that's because most don't KNOW anything, and those few that do only rarely start thinking for themselves to the point where it could cause trouble for Archie as they start to notice holes and problems with the story.

Regarding the OP:

England is one of my favorites. Herbology, Millennium Trees, and world information was good, and I wish they had fleshed these sections out more. That leads into it's flaw: is that it crams together too many great, but somewhat-random ideas.

So many parts of the book seemed to have little to do with England itself and felt thrown-in. It's not that these aren't neat ideas, or that they aren't useful, it's just that they don't seem relevant in a world book on England. Temporal magic was cool, but it didn't seem particularly unique or special to England. Ditto the Chiang-Ku, Star/Earth children, the Cernun Mystics, the Blood Druids.

I don't have a big beef with Camelot as a plotline. I just don't think it deserved 25 pages of fleshed-out NPCs and elaborate (though good-looking) supporting artwork.

I loved the England Druid painting in the original Rifts book, and I wish they had used that for the cover. The nature-centric, low-tech parts of England were the best ones for me. These are the parts that translate well into other settings and supplements, yet are especially appropriate for England.

If I had to pick one Rifts book that is the least-worth owning, I would pick Sonic Boom. I love that Palladium published a novel trilogy, but it was a difficult read. I understand that a simple mistake led to an early, rough draft getting submitted. This tragic mistake doomed the book and its sequels for me.

Yeah, England has a lot of good points, and is a great example of a lower-tech area with a smaller population that has adapted to life on Rifts earth, as opposed to, say, the NGR or the CS, who have the tech and refuse to work 'in' the world, but instead fight against it to conform it.

Very good point on the 'other' stuff thrown in. Although there is a lot of neat stuff, it's not really England stuff.

Actually, just thinking about it now, let's use England as an example, a lot of books should really be broken up into several books, and I think this is the reason so many dislike certain ones.

-Book 1. England, includes the geography, culture, creatures that inhabit the area, and unique things like millenium trees and druids.

-Book 2. Adventures in England, includes the overall plot about New Camelot, the alien intelligence posing as Merlin, the Nexus Knights and such.

-Book 3. Random stuff. Chang-ku, star children, temporal magic. None of this belongs in England, it's just put there because, well, that's where it got put.


Consider Africa, a book often disliked by many, what if it was broken down as above?

-Book 1. Africa, details the geography, peoples, cultural overviews as well as the many unique things and threats to the area, rain magic, drum magic, ect

-Book 2. Adventures in Africa. The entirety of the Four Horsemen adventure.

-Book 3. Random stuff. The Necromancer and other things that are not uniquely Africa.


If books were done like this, I think there would be far fewer complaints, and indeed most later books are done like this, focusing on an area and things from that area, not having the built in stories/adventures or random stuff. These earlier books were just 'everything at once', because they were going to be part of the ongoing 'series' of RIFTS, but if they were re-done/re-compiled, or if there was a strong plan from the beggining (which wasn't going to happen due to the runaway success of early RIFTS), having 90-100page World Books that just have the actual info relating to that area, and then seperate printed adventures would have been a great way to do it, and releasing all the 'random' stuff in the appropriate areas (temporal magic/mages and necromancy should have gone into a 'book of magic' with other casters like those of the Federation, ect).

Eashamahel wrote:-And finally at the end we get the Pecos Empire, which is actually a pretty good breakdown and bit of information, though it's worth noting there are no mention of Orcs anywhere in it, despite them being said to make up a huge percentage of the Pecos Bandits in the conversion book, continuing Palladiums system of just ignoring previous books.

That's probably more Palladium's post conversion book policy of trying to separate their product lines so that they can license everything. 'cause that's totally ever going to happen, y'know. Was totally worth wrecking the megaversal feel of their megaverse so that Heroes Unlimited and Nightbane and Rifts movies could all be licensed out to different companies.

Ah yes, I keep forgetting about that glorious decision. Man, that killed so much stuff off.

I wonder if that decision is what led to the 'megaversal system' being very much NOT megaversal in later product lines, like the differences between R:UE, BTS and Dead Reign?

Ooooh. Interesting theory. I've never considered that before.

Yeah, not that it was a conscious decision, but just that the necessity of keeping the games 'together' rules-wise was just not pushed anymore. I honestly think as it stands, Palladium is an extremely un-megaversal system.

Now, that being said, I have a first printing of the Conversion Book, so maybe the current version explains how to cross things back and forth between Robotech, Dead Reign, BTS and RIFTS, but someone I doubt it.

Going to go out on a limb and assume that you're talking about England?

Eashamahel wrote:Going to go out on a limb and assume that you're talking about England?

Hmm...I had assumed he was referring to CB1-revised.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Going to go out on a limb and assume that you're talking about England?

Hmm...I had assumed he was referring to CB1-revised.

--flatline

Yup CB-1: revised would be my guess. I'd actually forgotten about it! Lol. But now that I think about it, it goes on the list of useless books to own, all the good stuff was cut out, and whats left isn't really useful. Go find a prerevised copy, much better, even with the typos, and wonky editing.

Ah, I will trust you on the CB:1- Revised comment then. I struggle to imagine what it is actually about if it doesn't convert Dead Reign, BTS or Robotech, and probably no longer has the section on TMNT & After the Bomb, or Recon. Does it still have the Ninjas and Superspies and Heroes Unlimited sectiong?

Actually, what the heck is in that book?


One to add for me is the Sourcebook:1- Revised. If don't already have Sourcebook 1, then sure, go for it, especially if you are Ultimate Editioned up, but if you do have it, it brings so little to the table. And what it does bring hurts my brain. The Republicans went from "a growing power in the East (60% human; little magic, but heavy on all forms of augmentation and psionics) to a Super-Secret pre-Rifts CIA that was actually behind EVERYTHING that EVER happened and have an army of almost-Glitterboys with shock sticks (wha...?), who are battling Archie, who has dozens of huge bases spread everywhere.... Add on to that the fact that most of the book is equal to the quality of the original (published what, 20 years ago?), and some of it is worse (oh, the colour into black-and-white picture scans...oh my gosh....), and it re-prints, among other things, the Xiticix (guess you don't need Xiticix invasion, since it never happned), and you end up with a book that was, to me, extremely dissapointing and not worth owning. Actually, it is the only Rifts book I have that I don't want, and i have seriously considered just recycling it.

Shark_Force wrote:why would i want to own a book that sets the default to something that almost everyone agrees is complete and utter nonsense? it would be better for everyone to not own the book at all, because at least then we wouldn't have to fight against any preconceived notion of what the "official" events were.

I would disagree about "almost everyone", though some people like to get pretty vocal about it. Not sure what you are getting so bent out of shape about, to be honest. All the books give us is the general overview of a war, the personalities of the key figures, some of the types of troops available, the rough general tactics, various locales, special defenses, and a couple key battles. Along with piles of Hook, Line, and Sinker suggestions.
It is pretty much like a history textbook run down of WW2. Detail on big personalities, overview of the theaters and how things went there, big sounding rough numbers, and remember to mention D-Day and the Atomic Bombs, and that's about it. Plus RPG hooks.

Eashamahel wrote:Ah, I will trust you on the CB:1- Revised comment then. I struggle to imagine what it is actually about if it doesn't convert Dead Reign, BTS or Robotech, and probably no longer has the section on TMNT & After the Bomb, or Recon. Does it still have the Ninjas and Superspies and Heroes Unlimited sectiong?

Actually, what the heck is in that book?

IIRC, it dropped the RT and TMNT sections since at the time Palladium didn't have the license to those properties. All the monsters and the Witch OCC were moved to Dark Conversions, and I don't think DR was released when CB1r was printed. Pretty sure the NB stuff is only in DC too.

That's all I call recall off the top of my head...

I think I am going to have to find this book to look through it, just to see what is actually in it. As is, I am having a heck of a time thinking up what could possibly be filling up those 200pages...

I'll have to go with a book mentioned earlier, 'Heroes of the Megaverse'. That's the only book that I put down after reading it and actually wanted my money back. I had originally thought it was going to have some stuff on Cosmo-Knights which I think got cut but the book still sounded interesting, but the actual thing? Ugh. I have no use for any of the NPC's it presented, the class it created is... interesting and some of the powers can be used in a Heroes game I guess, but I can't ever see my pulling that book out again.


Daniel Stoker

Eashamahel wrote:I think I am going to have to find this book to look through it, just to see what is actually in it. As is, I am having a heck of a time thinking up what could possibly be filling up those 200pages...

IIRC.

It includes the PB Fantasy races, conversion info for HU/Recon/BTS Characters( Not monsters), After the Bomb. No RT/DR/TMNT, since DR didn't exist at the time and the others were liscenced deals they lost. Alot of the PB Fantasy monsters made the conversion book, EXCEPT, all undead, Demons, Dyvals etc.

CB1 Revised essentially cut the old CB1 into two parts, all the good stuff for GM's went into CB4 Dark Conversions, which included the rules for converting Nightbane characters. The OCC's( Warlock, witch, Diabolist, and summoner conversions are all in the second half as well, plus theres a pre-RUE Shifter OCC write up and overveiw thats pretty good as well. So all in all, Dark Conversions is the book you want.

Armorlord wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:why would i want to own a book that sets the default to something that almost everyone agrees is complete and utter nonsense? it would be better for everyone to not own the book at all, because at least then we wouldn't have to fight against any preconceived notion of what the "official" events were.

I would disagree about "almost everyone", though some people like to get pretty vocal about it. Not sure what you are getting so bent out of shape about, to be honest. All the books give us is the general overview of a war, the personalities of the key figures, some of the types of troops available, the rough general tactics, various locales, special defenses, and a couple key battles. Along with piles of Hook, Line, and Sinker suggestions.
It is pretty much like a history textbook run down of WW2. Detail on big personalities, overview of the theaters and how things went there, big sounding rough numbers, and remember to mention D-Day and the Atomic Bombs, and that's about it. Plus RPG hooks.

Umm....except it isn't like that at all.

The SoT book was more like " Lets throw the craziest, most bat-sh** ideas on the wall, and see which of them people buy into?" But very few did.

A historical overview would have had book one tell us all the information about the kingdom of Tolkeen, it's key NPC's, power groups, and the invasion corridor for the CS, vs Tolkeens defensive scheme. But wouldn't have jumped the gun and "started" the war.

Book two would have included all the Demons, monsters, and Weapons of war that Tolkeen had created for the war, include the Iron Juggies. The rest of the books could have told us key battles, events etc. Because as published the books were unusable, unless you like glaring inconsistencies in your games, then by all means play on.

See my original statement about people that had tried to play them as they came out being particularly upset with the series.
However that has no bearing on people buying them now, or those of us that waited for the whole set to be out before delving in (I mean com'on, even if you weren't anal-retentive like me about wanting the whole picture before running, PB's publishing style was pretty well established and there was no surprise that key information was scattered across the whole set.).
My original point stands, you either want the whole set or none of it. I, personally, would recommend the whole set to people unless they just want to put off the war or avoid that part of the world entirely, and to not let the release schedule of a now completely released set of books affect that decision.

Indeed, RIFTS is all about backwards inclusion. From the War on Tolkeen to Juicer Uprising, every major event has things added to it from later books.

If you DO want to have all of the War On Tolkeen books to run the game/war, you DON'T need Xiticix Invasion, as the one happening stops the other, and for the reasons already posted.

Ravenwing wrote:CB1 Revised essentially cut the old CB1 into two parts, all the good stuff for GM's went into CB4 Dark Conversions, which included the rules for converting Nightbane characters. The OCC's( Warlock, witch, Diabolist, and summoner conversions are all in the second half as well, plus theres a pre-RUE Shifter OCC write up and overveiw thats pretty good as well. So all in all, Dark Conversions is the book you want.

slight correction: CB1 revised does in fact have the warlock OCC in it. i cannot attest as to whether dark conversions also has the rules for warlocks.

that said, it has the OCC, but none of the spells, and no stats for elementals.

so, good luck actually *playing* a warlock using only CB 1, but the OCC itself is in fact there.

(warlock spells can be found in the rifts book of magic, and possibly elsewhere. i would guess that elementals are in dark conversions, but i'm not sure of that).

Eashamahel wrote:Indeed, RIFTS is all about backwards inclusion. From the War on Tolkeen to Juicer Uprising, every major event has things added to it from later books.

Is true. Much like how Kevin enjoyed capitalizing Rifts in the original main book then switched to just using bold and ® when referring to the setting after that. Nothing stays quite the same. I usually bill it as a good thing when describing Palladium's system, "a very organic evolution", good in terms of system changes.. kinda rough on the organization though..

Eashamahel wrote:If you DO want to have all of the War On Tolkeen books to run the game/war, you DON'T need Xiticix Invasion, as the one happening stops the other, and for the reasons already posted.

Eah? I was pretty sure that the Siege and Aftermath were precisely why curtailing the Xiticix fell into Lazlo's lap, because the CS wouldn't commit to it with Tolkeen to fight and then occupy.
XI, as an "event", was at the opposite end of the spectrum from SoT, bare details and relatively open without set events.

Indeed, that is why everything fell to Lazlo to do, except it never happened. The war never started, and none of the events described in XI came to pass, which means that none of the possible HLK adventures printed in the book (during and after the XI war) occured, nor is information about the different way that those who fought in the XI will be remembered vs those who fought in the War on Tolkeen of any use. In the current RIFTS timeline, as of the Sourcebook: 1 Reviesed, the Xiticix are back to being exactly where they were when the Rifts main book was first printed, an ever growing threat in the North.

As to bare details, what it actually had was the actual plan of attack which was going to be implemented by Lazlo, how that was going to work out, what they expected the Xiticix reaction and fallout to be, and what it was actually going to be, as well as basic troop breakdowns, numbers, and well though out magical tactics integrating their diverse troops (Heavy Cyborgs, ect). Pretty much exactly what the Siege on Tolkeen didn't manage to pull together, despite several books.

Shark_Force wrote:

Ravenwing wrote:CB1 Revised essentially cut the old CB1 into two parts, all the good stuff for GM's went into CB4 Dark Conversions, which included the rules for converting Nightbane characters. The OCC's( Warlock, witch, Diabolist, and summoner conversions are all in the second half as well, plus theres a pre-RUE Shifter OCC write up and overveiw thats pretty good as well. So all in all, Dark Conversions is the book you want.

slight correction: CB1 revised does in fact have the warlock OCC in it. i cannot attest as to whether dark conversions also has the rules for warlocks.

that said, it has the OCC, but none of the spells, and no stats for elementals.

so, good luck actually *playing* a warlock using only CB 1, but the OCC itself is in fact there.

(warlock spells can be found in the rifts book of magic, and possibly elsewhere. i would guess that elementals are in dark conversions, but i'm not sure of that).

Lol, opps my bad, I'd forgotten it was still in the Revised book. I have Dark Conversions, but I sold my CB:1 Revised opting for the old copy I still had.

Eashamahel wrote:Indeed, RIFTS is all about backwards inclusion. From the War on Tolkeen to Juicer Uprising, every major event has things added to it from later books.

If you DO want to have all of the War On Tolkeen books to run the game/war, you DON'T need Xiticix Invasion, as the one happening stops the other, and for the reasons already posted.

Or you could just ignore the crap in Aftermath and continue on with how things should be.

Eashamahel wrote:Indeed, that is why everything fell to Lazlo to do, except it never happened. The war never started, and none of the events described in XI came to pass, which means that none of the possible HLK adventures printed in the book (during and after the XI war) occured, nor is information about the different way that those who fought in the XI will be remembered vs those who fought in the War on Tolkeen of any use. In the current RIFTS timeline, as of the Sourcebook: 1 Reviesed, the Xiticix are back to being exactly where they were when the Rifts main book was first printed, an ever growing threat in the North.

As to bare details, what it actually had was the actual plan of attack which was going to be implemented by Lazlo, how that was going to work out, what they expected the Xiticix reaction and fallout to be, and what it was actually going to be, as well as basic troop breakdowns, numbers, and well though out magical tactics integrating their diverse troops (Heavy Cyborgs, ect). Pretty much exactly what the Siege on Tolkeen didn't manage to pull together, despite several books.

Lazlo wouldn't be exterminating the Xiticix entirely, and there was never an indication that they would. They were fighting back the heavy encroachment of Xiticix, the invasion of growing and new hives into populated areas. It's up to the GM/PCs to see just how successful they were. The general timeline runs with Xiticix being pushed back, but still a threat as of 109 PA (when that conflict could still be active). Similar to the timeline assumption that the Four Horsemen were defeated in some manner without specifics. XI is literally the counterpoint to SoT, one very meta-plot light and open, the other very meta heavy with set events and outcomes. If you really prefer one type over the other you have your choice for what to try running during that time period in NA.

I like meta-plot light.
Have the outcomes determined per each gaming group. Ya, the CS would have won the SoT... but not in the motard manner presented.

Armorlord wrote:Lazlo wouldn't be exterminating the Xiticix entirely, and there was never an indication that they would.

"This is it, the war against the Xiticix. The systematic campaign of extermination by the people of Lazlo and whatever allies are willing to join them in their crusade. They are going with "Plan A: Queen Check"- the extermination of all the Queens to prevent further Xiticix expansion. This will be followed by the destruction of the eggs, nits, grubs, and Nannies...Along the way they plan...to terminate 40-50% of the fighting class Xiticix."

I think you may have forgotten what exactly XI says about Lazlo's upcoming war with the Xiticix, their goals and outcome. Lazlo was going to ERRADICATE the Xiticix through the killing off of every elder queen, young queen, nit and grub, thereby destroying their ability to propagate COMPLETELY. Infact, their steps are laid out in the Plan of Attack (pages 120-121 of XI), and included:

-"Queens will be targeted for extermination."
-"locate nurseries and egg chambers for future targeting (within 24 hours, often within the hour). The eggs, nits and grubs must be exterminated...Bombardment and a scorched earth approach is taken against these locations, with everything in the chamber targeted for destruction."
-"when all or most of the Queens are eliminated, the Nannies will be tracked down and exterminated"
-"maintain surveillance and continued extermination of Queens and their spawn before they mature into adults."

The book very much explains how the war will go, in great detail, and it doesn't end with the Xiticix being the exact same, or just a scaled down threat. In fact, it ends with the Xiticix losing their ability to reproduce, and dying off in one generation, but also expanding their patrol borders by 100+miles and huge casualties on Lazlo's side. This war was supposed to start in 105 P.A., the same time as the Siege on Tolkeen. Clearly, it did not start, or happen. None of the events in Xiticix invasion came to pass, and it should be pointed out that those events are spoken of in the past tense throughout much of the book, it is assumed that they WILL be happening.

After Lazlo's war, we are told that "Once the Majority (70%) of the Lazlo forces have left, the CS will begin their own in depth investigation and "mop-up" operations to make certain the Hivelands are cleaned out of Xiticix. Any alien insects discovered will be destroyed with prejudice."

There is really no wiggle room on this one. Xiticix Invasion held that the Xiticix were going to be DESTROYED, it was a foregone conclusion, and it was going to be over a year after it started.

It could be mentioned that the book also states that "Those opposed to the war have suggested waiting 2-3 years", however we are told this won't happen, and that what really occurs is that "the authorities at Lazlo prepare to launch Plan A within the next 1D4 months."




So yes, Lazlo would be exterminating the Xiticix, and after they were done ensuring the bug-men's race was doomed, the CS would be cleaning up the rest. But it's all ignored, because it doesn't fit into the story of the War on Tolkeen, which was written afterwards. I don't know how many others did this, but we actually played the Lazlo war against the Xiticix, it went exactly like the book said it did, and when the War on Tolkeen came out, well, we just gave up and rolled up new characters (thinking we were going to be able to play that as it was released as well) because it was impossible for both events to have occured.

The book I own that is probably the least useful would be mechanoids because it will only be useful for that period of time. Siege is probably my lowest priority in owning because from what I've read of it I rather just make up my own stuff for that. I was really interested in those books when I thought each book was about a particular stage in the war but it sounds like more of a mess. I might pick them up if I find them for cheap enough and I have the money but otherwise not doing it.

One of the things with Siege is that spread throughout the books are lots of really cool things. For instance, the Devilman RCC, which is one of my favourites, or Lew Line spells, or Tolkeen gear. Honstely, if Siege was split into books the way it should have been, some of them would be extremely worth owning, and others totally skipable, as it is, it's pretty much that all books have some worth, but a lot of what is in them is also elsewhere.

Some of the art in the SoT series was very good. The Perez stuff, the Freddy Williams stuff.

Some of the items were nice too.

Some of the 'between the lines' stuff was good as well. The story of the sergeant as he went through the war was good. Right up to him fragging the crazy dude. (( It's been a while I forget the guys name))

Eashamahel wrote:One of the things with Siege is that spread throughout the books are lots of really cool things. For instance, the Devilman RCC, which is one of my favourites, or Lew Line spells, or Tolkeen gear. Honstely, if Siege was split into books the way it should have been, some of them would be extremely worth owning, and others totally skipable, as it is, it's pretty much that all books have some worth, but a lot of what is in them is also elsewhere.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Some of the art in the SoT series was very good. The Perez stuff, the Freddy Williams stuff.

Some of the items were nice too.

Some of the 'between the lines' stuff was good as well. The story of the sergeant as he went through the war was good. Right up to him fragging the crazy dude. (( It's been a while I forget the guys name))

in true palladium fashion, most anything that was even remotely useful has been reprinted elsewhere.

the equipment is in the BoM, and GMG, if i'm not mistaken. the d'norr devilmen are i think in d-bees of north america, are they not? ley line spells are also in the rifts book of magic.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Some of the art in the SoT series was very good. The Perez stuff, the Freddy Williams stuff.

Some of the items were nice too.

Some of the 'between the lines' stuff was good as well. The story of the sergeant as he went through the war was good. Right up to him fragging the crazy dude. (( It's been a while I forget the guys name))

Its true, every cloud has a silver lining.
And Perez and Williams did their usual awesome job of art.
Not a fan of the melted wax looking stuff though...
A lot of the short stories were really good.
I'd like to see that quality in some Rifts novels someday.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Some of the art in the SoT series was very good. The Perez stuff, the Freddy Williams stuff.

Some of the items were nice too.

Some of the 'between the lines' stuff was good as well. The story of the sergeant as he went through the war was good. Right up to him fragging the crazy dude. (( It's been a while I forget the guys name))

Its true, every cloud has a silver lining.
And Perez and Williams did their usual awesome job of art.
Not a fan of the melted wax looking stuff though...
A lot of the short stories were really good.
I'd like to see that quality in some Rifts novels someday.

The melted wax stuff is Burles's work. I can't stand it personally.

Oy, vey. Don't get me started on Burles "Palladium" art.