Incorporating Macross II material

[ShadowLogan]

Er... you might want to review the actual art there. While the VF-2SS is outwardly similar to the VF-1, there isn't much commonality otherwise. Its transformation is radically different, its engine configuration and FAST pack setup is a pretty radical departure from the VF-1's norm as well. With greater firepower than the Alpha, greater speed, better MDC in its standard configuration, and so on... it would make the Alpha's existence an uncomfortable step down if the VF-2SS was its predecessor rather than its successor. If one wanted to, it wouldn't be hard to draw a connection between the Valkyrie II's four-engine configuration and the Alpha's...

Performance and design wise these mecha would fit in with the VF-1 service period compared to the Alpha (just as it does against the standard VF-1 of the period). The VFs (aside from the VF-XX) of M2 follow the basic complex transformation of the VF-1, and even strongly resemble it allowing them to be part of the "family" (no unheard of for models to have visible differences). Later Veritech Fighters seem to favor less complex transformations in comparison.

The SAP package is nothing more than an alternate FAST-Pack the UEDF develops in the 2010s, post RoD. Likely optimized for anti-ship duty (BFG, Squires) as opposed to interceptor/dog-fighter (regular) given the different weapon configurations. Basically it is developed to replace the Lancer II and alternative to the Conbat (and other similar units).

The Metal Siren may be the last VF-1 model developed that applied some of the technology that was being developed for the newer generation of Veritechs either to mature the basic technology or migrating to the new model to get some additional life out of the airframe. Basically a VF-1 equivalent of the later Shadow Fighter (plugging in new technology in an existing proven platform) if you follow.

The various railguns mentioned can either be converted to beam weapons, conventional projectile, or remain as is (taking the UEEF RG issue to relate to scale/portability of the weapon in question instead of the technology itself if the last case).

ut I think that it would be best to boost the Valkyrie II's main body MDC by about 25-30% (bringing it up into the 400s) for compatibility with the RTSC-era mecha...

Basically my view is the more you have to change the RAW presentation of the mecha to fit a given period, the less likely it fits that given period. So TMS would seem the best fit for M2 hardware in question rather than NG/TSC.

The Missile Tables, I will only say that I would use a unified/standardized table.

The jetlasers don't need to be altered given they already come with a limited ROF, so you are trading ROF to get range/damage.

Regarding the gunpods. The BC-60 is comparable to the existing energy gunpods. I would leave the projectile gunpods alone, and attribute the lower damage from the lack of accuracy the weapon has (individual round damage shows a % miss, so nothing out of the ordinary). Basically the UEDF went with less accurate weapon, but one that carried a larger payload (even adjusting for damage between bursts, the M2 gunpods have better payload). Or one could go with TY's favored theory of technology slide.

I'd also advise that the Super Armed Pack's segments be treated as separate areas instead of boosting the local armor

That is how I take the RAW to begin with. The SAP armor segments include coverage of existing VF-2SS locations, and for simplicity just assume damage goes to them first before the unit proper. Just like the GBP-1S entry in 2E TMS SB.

infact, if the metal siren is so limited, just how the hell did one blow up a Marduk Cruiser with just it's onboard weapons?

Basically the same way Destroids do once on the inside.

I suspect the energy wave is the equivalent to the volley of fire the Destroids unleash during a Deadelus attack in purpose. It may not be useable in regular combat (range, external shielding, etc).

[jaymz]

You can not buy into the energy wave all you want but make no mistake THAT is what it is that did the destruction.

[Chronicler]

So finely got the book in the mail (damn mailman shoved it in the mailbox ) and started to skim it. So far I like what I see and might incorporate it in my Alt project (which has hit a slight bump in regards to how I would change the events of the macros saga ). All and all I am taking every ones view of it regarding translation to RT2E. Again this thread is helpful.

[Seto Kaiba]

Performance and design wise these mecha would fit in with the VF-1 service period compared to the Alpha (just as it does against the standard VF-1 of the period). The VFs (aside from the VF-XX) of M2 follow the basic complex transformation of the VF-1, and even strongly resemble it [...]

Whooboy... we got two people holding the "did not do research" ball here, not just one. That's disconcerting.

First... you might want to go back and review the art, because what you're saying here doesn't match objective reality. In actual fact, the Macross II Valkyries don't transform much like the VF-1 at all. Fewer moving parts, with less changes made to the overall configuration of the airframe. The only way it actually resembles the VF-1's is the fold in the middle to become the torso... otherwise the two are pretty much night and day. The Metal Siren's transformation also has almost no common ground with the VF-1...

allowing them to be part of the "family" (no unheard of for models to have visible differences). Later Veritech Fighters seem to favor less complex transformations in comparison.

This is the same kind of idiot ball logic that was behind the "Vindicator" thing in 1E... it doesn't work in any logical sense.

The SAP package is nothing more than an alternate FAST-Pack the UEDF develops in the 2010s, post RoD. Likely optimized for anti-ship duty (BFG, Squires) as opposed to interceptor/dog-fighter (regular) given the different weapon configurations. [...]

It has ONE anti-ship weapon... that doesn't make it optimized for anti-ship attacks, and the animation certainly shows us it functions as an interceptor and dogfighter.

The Metal Siren may be the last VF-1 model [...]

'cept for the fact that it has precisely nothing in common with a VF-1, design-wise.

Basically my view is the more you have to change the RAW presentation of the mecha to fit a given period, the less likely it fits that given period. So TMS would seem the best fit for M2 hardware in question rather than NG/TSC.

Y'see... my general approach is to call a spade a spade, and try to insert material as nondestructively as possible. Adding a Macross II Valkyrie or three to the Macross Saga era of Robotech just draws even more of a line under how all of the designs that came after were shoddy, underperforming, overpriced coffins. That approach would basically be favoring Tommy's "it's all downhill after Macross" line.

If you wanted to non-destructively introduce the Macross II Valkyries to the timeline, the smartest approach would be to emphasize the common design features they coincidentally share with the MOSPEADA designs, and draw on the plot threads left behind by RTSC. You have a less complex transformation, with very similar engine configurations... the Valkyrie II's got two main and two sub-engines in fighter mode, and two main and three sub-engines in GERWALK mode. It's one up on the Alpha, in that it can deploy its arms and still use all of its engines for forward propulsion. If you want to leave it as fusion-powered, it's an effort to compensate for the dwindling and unreplenishable protoculture stockpiles of the UEEF, and
follows the same general design ethos as the Super Shadow Fighter w/ Synchro Beta. You've got FAST packs bolted on to maximize space maneuverability, extra fuel for enhanced space endurance, copious micro-missiles, and a big "anti-anything" gun mounted dorsally. It's more sensible, as it's one plane not two, and it lacks shadow technology so it doesn't have the Haydonite booby trap. Its performance in space in its usual configuration is just as good or better than the Alpha or Beta, making it a sensible replacement for either/both. Its guns are railguns, which are big in the UEEF's mechanized forces circa 2044.

It fits the ~2044 "Fourth Robotech War" setting pretty well... a LOT better and less invasively than trying to crowbar it into the Macross Saga.

I'd also advise that the Super Armed Pack's segments be treated as separate areas instead of boosting the local armor

That is how I take the RAW to begin with. The SAP armor segments include coverage of existing VF-2SS locations, and for simplicity just assume damage goes to them first before the unit proper. Just like the GBP-1S entry in 2E TMS SB.

That's... not what I meant. M2 RPG RAW treats the Super Armed Pack like RT2E treats the Armored Pack... as though it's some kind of all-enclosing armor package, which as you may have noticed... it isn't. I'm saying it should be treated like the VF-1 Super Pack in RT2E, where the packs are separate areas on the body.

[Seto Kaiba]

I do not buy into the "energy wave" nonsense.

As others have pointed out already, you can "not buy it" all you like... but that IS what Macross II's animation shows happening. The Metal Siren emits some kind of energy wave, which causes parts of the ship's interior to explode a second after it passes over them. It's not listed or described in the show's production materials, though, which is frustrating.

I can buy that they breach the ship's reactor core and cause it to self destruct...

Well, there are two issues with that... the first is that reactors in Macross don't work that way. Ships in the original Macross universe don't have one big, central power source... they have clusters of smaller reactors, which are run in tandem to meet the ship's power needs. That way losing one doesn't mean you're hosed, you've got a bunch of others to pick up the slack. Also, the thermonuclear reaction power systems in Macross aren't bombs waiting to happen like a Gundam fusion reactor or Star Trek warp core... if the reactor's breached the worst you get is a puff of plasma without any harmful radiation. In order to actually make one blow up, you basically have to sabotage it so that it starts a runaway reaction, the way Misa did to Mars Base Salla's thermonuclear reaction power plant in "Bye Bye Mars". Reaction furnaces and other thermonuclear reaction power systems are so popular and so widely used because they're very safe.

I also believe the super laser and plasma spear are grossly undervalued and should probably be doing closer to 1d4x100 or 1d6x100 given that these things core hulls in one shot.

Super Laser? What has a super laser? D'you mean the thing the RPG calls the VF-2SS's "Super Beam Cannon"? That's a railgun, OSM-ly, but yeah... it's supposed to be an anti-ship weapon that just happens to be power overwhelming against mecha, kind of like the VF-1 Valkyrie's RO-X2A beam cannon from the Strike Pack.

Nothing i've been able to determine in Macross mentions "energy wave" as a weapon system. they mention fold waves -- so again it was a critical hit to the Fold system that did the ship in.

Not wishing to be rude, I suspect your sources are few and rather sparse on this front. Also, fold drives aren't volatile like that either. There are mentions of energy waves (a specific type) being used as a countermeasure that interferes with all overtechnology that relies on super dimension physics (called a D-pulse burst). This is seen in action in Macross Frontier, "Memory of Global".

What I suspect happened is that the Metal Siren's energy wave is a particularly intense, weaponized d-pulse burst system that, instead of causing the reaction in the ship's thermonuclear reaction heat pile system cluster to collapse harmlessly, it caused the reaction to suddenly intensify, detonating the heat pile systems like small reaction warheads.

[Alrik Vas]

I'll take two.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Just my opinion, but the best option for introducing Macross II into Robotech (or vice-versa) is for a limited crossover. Space folding is supposed to be the equivalent of opening a wormhole, so its not that far fetched. Just have a battlegroup that includes a Tristar or three that has a space fold mishap and voila!

[Seto Kaiba]

Just my opinion, but the best option for introducing Macross II into Robotech (or vice-versa) is for a limited crossover. Space folding is supposed to be the equivalent of opening a wormhole, so its not that far fetched. [...]

While I agree on the method, fold jumps in RT are not wormhole travel or anything like it. In RTSC, the visuals and RT's sole diagram of a fold effect indicate that RT fold travel is more or less identical to Star Trek's warp drive.

Macross fold drives are, more or less, a form of folded space teleportation rather than a wormhole or hyperspace sort of affair.

after looking up the Metal siren - the plasma Field weapon system. [...]

The what? No such animal in the official specs from the OVA's creators.

I think Palladium never properly stat'd it (what a surprise) [...]

You're right... sort of. Palladium DID get pretty much all of the Metal Siren's details wrong... but not in the way you suggest. The plasma spear isn't a ranged weapon... it's purely a powered close combat weapon. Pretty much all the weapons and such were misidentified and mis-statted.

They also did not properly stat that it has 4 modes, not 3, (Gundroid).. [...]

IIRC, Palladium did acknowledge a fourth mode, but called it "High Output Battroid" or something to that effect. "Gundroid" is the correct term for that fourth mode.

Dave Detreich gave stats for the plasma field ejector (1/2 mile, 2d6x100)... but it's not an energy wave.. [...]

Sadly, your boy Dave is just as incorrect as Palladium... his info is different, but no less misinformed and inaccurate as Palladium's was. He didn't correct anything... he only introduced a new set of misconceptions to what was already a fairly messy situation.

His info, like MAHQ's, has pretty much zero OSM basis... if it did, he would have known only one UN Spacy mecha from Macross II uses laser weaponry (the VF-XX), and none use any kind of autocannon. It's all particle beam weapons and railguns baby.

(The ships don't use lasers either... or regular particle beam guns. They use dimension beam weapons pretty much exclusively, which are a whole other kettle of fish.)

[ShadowLogan]

That's... not what I meant. M2 RPG RAW treats the Super Armed Pack like RT2E treats the Armored Pack... as though it's some kind of all-enclosing armor package, which as you may have noticed... it isn't. I'm saying it should be treated like the VF-1 Super Pack in RT2E, where the packs are separate areas on the body.

I agree the SAP is not all-enclosing like the GBP-1S, but for simplicity of the MDC stats and tracking purposes it is best to do it that way. Just going between the -2SS and the SAP, you would basically be doubling the MDC location list (2E VF-1 FAST PACKs don't add that much to the list in comparison).

In actual fact, the Macross II Valkyries don't transform much like the VF-1 at all. Fewer moving parts, with less changes made to the overall configuration of the airframe. The only way it actually resembles the VF-1's is the fold in the middle to become the torso... otherwise the two are pretty much night and day. The Metal Siren's transformation also has almost no common ground with the VF-1...

Legs, arms, and head are all positioned the same in fighter mode so would follow the VF-1. The only thing that changes is the wings on the -2JA/-1MS, but I wouldn't put that down as pushing it off to a separate family since models can have noticeable differences between them and still be part of the same family.

This is the same kind of idiot ball logic that was behind the "Vindicator" thing in 1E... it doesn't work in any logical sense.

The 1E Vindicator should not have been the VF-1V based on the design, it has more in common with the VAF-6 and could be seen as a stretch version (either getting a -6letter or a new # like they did with -7 variant) than some radical redesign of an unrelated platform.

The VF-1MS/2SS/2JA can easily fit in as a derivative of the VF-1 frame than any apparent Alpha derivative. They've got the same basic layout between them all. That they have noticeable differences is irrelevant, as it is possible for models to have very noticeable differences in appearances in the same line so there is nothing odd about that.

It has ONE anti-ship weapon... that doesn't make it optimized for anti-ship attacks, and the animation certainly shows us it functions as an interceptor and dogfighter.

I didn't say it could not be used as an interceptor/dogfighter in a secondary role. You could also take the view the SAP as FAST-Pack to replace the existing FAST-Packs in that role if you want. But 40+ SRMs seem better suited to an interceptor than 66 Mini's with a slow firing BFG (the LRM count can be the same).

...it fits the ~2044 "Fourth Robotech War" setting pretty well... a LOT better and less invasively than trying to crowbar it into the Macross Saga.

I disagree in that it fits the post 2044 setting.

The post TMS Veritechs (every one) favors a different placement of the arm/legs in vehicle mode compared to the TMS era (putting the arms between the legs, post TMS there is not a single known RT unit to follow this approach). Not to mention from a transformation perspective, later VFs (not VHTs or ground veritechs) reorganize their modules around a central physical core/axis, unlike the VF-1/M2 units with their folding torsos that relocate everything around an imaginary point. The ground veritechs don't seem to follow that approach, but it is understandable why.

Their secondary top mounted thrusters could also be taken as a evolutionary step between the existing TMS and NG/ASC designs. The -2SS/JA's weapon configuration is very VF-1 (headlasers, gunpod, easily identifiable external packages). Even the -1MS can be seen as evolutionary stepping stone to the later VF-6/7/9 in they way weapons are carried.

Performance likely needs to be adjusted, but given these are supposed to now be VF-1 derivatives, it isn't that hard to copy/paste the necessary stat blocks in over M2's.

[rem1093]

You could use the VF-2JA as the competitor that lost to the VF-1. There could be some of the test models in mothballs to be used at a later time. As for the Metal siren, a test bed for tech that would go in to the Alpha and Beta.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

While I agree on the method, fold jumps in RT are not wormhole travel or anything like it. In RTSC, the visuals and RT's sole diagram of a fold effect indicate that RT fold travel is more or less identical to Star Trek's warp drive.

Except for the fact I specifically stated a Tristar:

The Tristar was a fold-capable vessel, and it was this class of vessel that first employed a hazardous variation of the usual fold to create an "orbital warp blast", which was used to destroy an attacking force of Robotech Master battleships and bioroids by dragging them into an artificial singularity.

- Robotech.com Tristar entry

[Seto Kaiba]

Except for the fact I specifically stated a Tristar: [...]

That's nice and all, but it doesn't change the point I made... Robotech's "hyperspace fold" isn't really anything but a pseudonym for a Star Trek-style warp drive, officially. As your own quote indicates, the "orbital warp blast" effect is what you'd call a decidedly non-standard application of the fold drive. (If we had a nickel for every time warp drives did something unpleasant to space-time in Star Trek, we could treat the forums out to a nice steak dinner...)

There are all manner of ways to get a Robotech force into the Macross universes or vice versa, but with RT's version of fold technology being warp drive a wormhole-type incident doesn't seem all that likely.

at this point i don't care what the OSM Says, because 1. it was never properly translated. [...]

Let's be honest here, you've suddenly had a change of heart regarding the term "OSM" because every time you claim that the OSM says something, you get called out for lying.

Anyway... it would not be accurate to say that the Macross II OSM has never been properly translated, because the material has, in fact, been translated by at least two individuals. One is me, the other is fellow MWer Yoshino. You just haven't personally seen it, is all. Some of it is out there on the web, via the Macross Compendium and other sites, as others find the time to validate and post our work there. I'll admit, we really are kind of behind the 8-ball for publishing all that translated material.

Palladium didn't have access to it back when they wrote the books, but accuracy and Palladium's writing have always had kind of a distant relationship where Robotech and Macross are concerned. The Macross II RPG is probably the worst of the lot, accuracy-wise, but I've never been able to find a satisfactory answer as to why it ended up like that. For their part, Macross's creators don't seem to consider the RPG to even be legitimate Macross merchandise... which is strange, since it was produced under license.

2. the official sub/dub calls it a plasma field ejector. [...]

Whoops... caught you in another little fib, Rappa. There is, in fact, no dialogue in the subtitled version or English dub that references the plasma spear, and there's no such thing as a "plasma field ejector" in Macross II at all. Naturally, there isn't any dialogue referencing something the creators didn't include in the design, so your claim here is demonstrably false.

3. i paid for the rpg not the osm and would ue rpg versions of stats vs anime stats.

True... but as your previous posts indicate, you don't seem to have actually read the books. The obvious issue here is the "plasma field ejector" you're talking about isn't in the RPG stats either, so your statement doesn't make much sense.

arguing something incredulous vs something you can agree with is the ultimate issue. Statless robots vs Online stats vs printed stats .. You can only compare apples with apples.

I agree, you have dispensed a lot of incredulous misinformation here in the many claims you couldn't back up. The common ground for this sort of thing tends to revolve around either RAW or OSM, the two non-subjective defined values of truth in this matter... and most folks would agree RAW is kind of wide of the mark when it comes to Macross II.

I'd personally love to be able to post my corrected/rewritten version of the Macross II RPG, or the revised edition I'm working on for compatibility with RT2E's core rules, but the forum rules prohibit me from doing so. I may independently put up the revised edition on my own servers, but I'd have to finish it first.

[Seto Kaiba]

You could use the VF-2JA as the competitor that lost to the VF-1. There could be some of the test models in mothballs to be used at a later time. As for the Metal siren, a test bed for tech that would go in to the Alpha and Beta.

That, like ShadowLogan's suggestion, even with completely uncorrected RAW stats, kind of leaves you wondering why the UEEF or UEDF would've gone with the Alpha and Beta if they had much more capable fighters with better armor, weapons, flight performance, and so on. That's why I'm saying it's better to set them up as a replacement for the Alpha and Beta for the 4th Robotech War... similar touches in design, but greater combat effectiveness. All the benefits, none of the weaknesses.

I agree the SAP is not all-enclosing like the GBP-1S, but for simplicity of the MDC stats and tracking purposes it is best to do it that way. Just going between the -2SS and the SAP, you would basically be doubling the MDC location list (2E VF-1 FAST PACKs don't add that much to the list in comparison).

Personally, since it's only just the five pieces, it should actually be less of a bear to keep track of than the regular VF-1's FAST pack. That's six.

Legs, arms, and head are all positioned the same in fighter mode so would follow the VF-1. [...]

Not really, no... the arms fold flush to the underside, and the legs are actually positioned outboard. It's rudely similar, but generally more different than alike. The actual transformation sequence is much changed, with fewer moving parts and a great deal less complexity.

The only thing that changes is the wings on the -2JA/-1MS, but I wouldn't put that down as pushing it off to a separate family since models can have noticeable differences between them and still be part of the same family. [...]

There are some other, fairly major design differences that you're not noting here... the Metal Siren in particular is an odd one, what with four modes and all, and the way the legs in particular are changed around during transformation is more in line with the Alpha's design than the VF-1's.

I didn't say it could not be used as an interceptor/dogfighter in a secondary role. You could also take the view the SAP as FAST-Pack to replace the existing FAST-Packs in that role if you want. But 40+ SRMs seem better suited to an interceptor than 66 Mini's with a slow firing BFG (the LRM count can be the same). [...]

That's the thing... the mini-missile vs. short range missile affair is pretty much just terms, the actual weapons involved are pretty similar stats-wise. This is more a screwball maneuver in 2E though, which removed guidance from mini-missiles, and relabeled a number of mini-missiles SRMs as a result. With long-range anti-fighter armament and close-range anti-fighter armament as its primary offensive options, it's pretty much an interceptor/dogfighter first, anti-ship attack plane second.

The post TMS Veritechs (every one) favors a different placement of the arm/legs in vehicle mode compared to the TMS era (putting the arms between the legs, post TMS there is not a single known RT unit to follow this approach).

You're assuming that the UEEF/UEDF stick consistently to one school of design in this respect... and boy, that's something they've NEVER done. Radical reinvention between generations is practically their schtick... for obvious reasons. Thanks to the Super Shadow Fighter, we have clear-cut and indisputable evidence that UEEF's design habits are starting to come full circle back towards the VF-1 anyway.

Even the -1MS can be seen as evolutionary stepping stone to the later VF-6/7/9 in they way weapons are carried.

But that raises the question, why would the UEEF pass on a problem-free, entirely superior aircraft like the Metal Siren (in RAW, even) in favor of the under-performing Alpha and Beta?

Performance likely needs to be adjusted, but given these are supposed to now be VF-1 derivatives, it isn't that hard to copy/paste the necessary stat blocks in over M2's.

So... you protest that minimal changes to RAW should be made, but the only thing necessary to make the Macross II Valkyries fit with the 2044 era is raising their main body MDC about 25%, while making them fit the Macross Saga requires rewriting all their performance data. One value, versus a group of values...

[jaymz]

Dimensional refers to more than the fold drives. You really need to stop digging that hole you are in.

[jaymz]

There are also dimensional radar systems and some other things Seto would know more about than I

As for DD .... I very much liked his stuff but the timeframe it was done has to be taken into account a d tbe fact is his stuff is just as off base as all the palladium stuff was back then.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm going to address your latest batch of inaccuracies and misstatements out of order this time, to make a brief point.

Japanese is such a horrible inaccurate language that there really is no way to say one way or another is accurate.

Even by the pathetically poor standard you've set for yourself in this thread, that is a monumentally ignorant statement.

By your own admission, you don't speak or read Japanese... so you have no grounds to make a statement like that. I'm not the politically correct type or anything, but I would almost interpret that as slightly racist, as it really is quite offensive for someone with zero experience in a language to announce that it's "horrible" and/or "inaccurate" as though that were fact. Like practically everything else you've said in this thread, that has no basis in objective reality. If anything, from a western perspective, Japanese can often seem over-precise at times, particularly when it comes to things like interpersonal forms of address.

(for example, Commie sub group uses Aetonas while Coal Girls uses " Titans" in Shinseki Kyojin aka attack of Titan. Both terms are equally Valid, but Attack of Titan is the Prefered Title.

With your usual lack of precision, you got the title wrong... it's Shinseki no Kyojin (進撃の巨人).

Also, "Aetonas" is not an accurate translation of 巨人 (Kyojin, lit. "Giant" or "Huge Person"). What you have there isn't an example of two equally valid translations of a single word, you have one sub group that opted, for whatever reason, to use "Eoten", an Old English word for a specific type of man eating giant, instead of translating "Kyojin" literally. It's not an accurate translation by any means, but I'd excuse it as artistic license on the part of the fansubber.




Now, on to the meat and bones of your Macross-related fallacies.

dave' was the goTO Source for rpg Alternate stats. Just because you don't remember him doesn't mean the rest of us don't. now dave's site was torn down, but there are plenty of those who kept his site archived.

Let me pose an alternate scenario to you, oh assuming one. Let's assume for a second that I AM familiar with his work, and have some of it archived myself... and that the reason I'm unimpressed by it is because what he did wasn't impressive... or accurate.

Moving right along...

And i have the DVD Rips of The show, they do not mention any of the "accurate" translation Stuff that You seem to be so fond of quoting.

I've got Macross II on VHS and DVD... legitimate copies. Like most anime titles, the greater portion of the setting material is not included in the show itself, but instead included in art books, or used as promotional material in hobby magazines and the like. This stuff is part of the show's production materials, a great deal of it is notation from the animation model sheets, a sort of writer's bible for the production team's writers and animators. It lets them know how the characters are supposed to relate to each other, how the factions relate, what the mecha can do, and so on, so they're all on the same (proverbial) page. The DVDs included a small cross-section of the material as an extra, but most of it was printed in magazines or books, which was and is fairly typical. Some segments of the material did make their way to the US, mostly partial translations of the commemorative 10th Anniversary Macross II promotional feature in Bandai B-Club Magazine, which was split up between several publications once it hit the states.

in Macross-verse, Dimensional - anything - Has refered to the space fold system. [...]
You're inferring that the ships fired fold beams at each other, is just wrong and it was never used in such a way [...]

One of the reasons we keep butting heads is because you don't check your facts, and as a result of trying to bluff your way through a discussion of material you don't have any knowledge of, you end up saying a fair few things that any schmuck with Google and thirty seconds could refute. This is one of those things.

Had you bothered to check literally any reputable Macross reference site, you would have noticed that dimension weapons have been a part of Macross from the word "go". In point of fact, the main gun on the titular SDF-1 Macross is called a super dimension energy cannon in the official write-up. If you're not familiar with that term, "super dimension" refers to the 10+ dimensional sub-universe that many forms of Overtechnology exploit. Among the technologies that access or manipulate super dimension space are: fold drives, thermonuclear reaction power systems, cross-dimension (fold wave) radar and communications, and dimension weaponry.

Now, the official Macross encyclopedia Macross Chronicle does cover dimension weaponry in its contents. They're covered fairly comprehensively in Technology Sheet 15 "Dimension Weapons". There are two basic classes of dimension weapons... super dimension energy weaponry and dimension eater weaponry. Both could, if you really wanted, be considered weaponized applications of the same principles behind a fold drive.

The former is the one you're familiar with from pretty much every Macross title, and goes by a diverse array of pseudonyms depending on how the beam itself is focused... the most common is "converging beam cannon". The super dimension energy cannons use a fold resonance pattern to collapse matter from super dimension space into three-dimensional space, causing the exotic matter to undergo fusion and become an enormously powerful sustained fusion detonation that is directed outwards as an incredibly powerful exotic fusion plasma beam at a significant fraction of the speed of light.

The other kind, Dimension Eater-based beam weapons, go the other way. They operate on much the same principles as the Dimension Eater warheads, but instead fire a stream of micro-fold effects that collapse the matter they hit into super dimension space.

Super dimension energy weapons are very common in Macross... they've been deployed at every scale ranging from massive anti-fleet installations like the Grand Cannon to Valkyrie-use beam rifles and even as a coaxial gun mounts (in the style of "head lasers")*. They're the standard for starship-scale beam weapons, both at main gun and turret gun scales.

* On the YF/VF-19 and YF/VF-21/22 as coaxial or wing root mounted weapons, and on the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30 as gun pods.

even in Macross Frontier where they go around tossing planet destroying Fold Quartz Bombs. [...]

You might want to go back and check Macross Frontier... because, in the series, they refer to those as Dimension Eater warheads.

also, in anime parlance, Dimensional lasers are often those organic bending lasers you see in alot of anime now..

That's also incorrect.

In actual fact, the common term used for energy weapons where the beam bends one or more times on the way to the target is "homing laser" or "homing beam", depending on whether it's a laser cannon or a particle beam cannon. This term probably originated in Top o Nerae! (AKA GunBuster) from 1988. There have been some fan nicknames for the things... which range from "bendy beams" to "Itano Light Show".

In Macross, the in-universe term for beam weapons where the beam can bend (as seen near the end of Macross II) is "high-angle beam gun". The sharp bend in the beam is, per official sources, achieved via minor distortion of space-time in a fashion not unlike a pinpoint barrier system.

[jaymz]

Let's see on one side we have:

A person who readily admits they cannot read Japanese
Uses sources that are inaccurate at best
Has demonstrated a lack of knowledge of said sources
Uses a fansub as the basis of the poorness of the Japanese language

On the other side we have:

A person who can fluently read Japanese
Owns or has direct access to the most up to date and accurate resources for the subject matter at hand
Is likely the most knowledgeable person on these forums and one of the most knowledgeable outside the subjects original creators


Who exactly is serving the bull that needs to be swallowed again?

[jaymz]

Actually he does. I know of his qualifications but it is not my place to give them to you. You are welcome to ask him yourself however. Unless of course you'd rather not so you can continue to assume otherwise like you have assumed your correctness of everything else that has so far been refuted?

I have also seen said publications though I myself cannot read them.

[jaymz]

Also it is not as difficult as you seem to think to get access to said publications

[ShadowLogan]

Personally, since it's only just the five pieces, it should actually be less of a bear to keep track of than the regular VF-1's FAST pack. That's six.

I compared the VF-2SS regular to the 2SS w/SAP
Head Lasers (2): +0
Head (1): +0
Hands (2): +20 (considered overlap from the arm launchers?)
Arms (2): +180 (self explanatory)
Legs (2): +130 (self explanatory)
Wings (2): +70 (while separate, they do overlap in F/G from certain angles)
Top Jets (2): +40 (covered)
Gun Pod (1-2): +0 (quantity/type changes)
RPC (1): +0
Main Body (1): +230 (it would block the Main Body from the top/rear)
Missile Shields (3): +200
BFG Cannon (1): +150

I count 8 locations altered by the SAP per RAW. 10 baseline, 18 w/SAP which is basically doubling the list and that's grouping multiples together (16v31 individual if that's how you want to count it).

You're assuming that the UEEF/UEDF stick consistently to one school of design in this respect... and boy, that's something they've NEVER done. Radical reinvention between generations is practically their schtick... for obvious reasons. Thanks to the Super Shadow Fighter, we have clear-cut and indisputable evidence that UEEF's design habits are starting to come full circle back towards the VF-1 anyway.

Radical reinvention is a result of RT's origins, but even internally we have two sagas that follow this revised thought consistently post TMS which shows that it is the superior approach over the TMS layout and approach.

I don't view the SSF as a clear-cut example of UEEF returning to the VF-1. The VHT's space pack shows that the concept (bolt-on for improved performance) was never abandoned completely, just that it wasn't very common. And if we have one example, there is the possibility for more to exist.

But that raises the question, why would the UEEF pass on a problem-free, entirely superior aircraft like the Metal Siren (in RAW, even) in favor of the under-performing Alpha and Beta?

The -1MS does not need to be problem free in the revised timeline (VFB-X-5/7). We know in RT that humans do pass on platforms due to cost/complexity (VF-X-4/5, VR-041), so the -1MS may have advantages over the A/B, but it they may be more costly and complex than it's competitors which kills the program.

Alternatively the -1MS could also have been limited to a technology demonstrator/evaluation as opposed to a production unit from the start. F-15 STOL (F-15 doesn't have thrust vectoring or canards), X-29 (it's a modified F-5 frame), X-53 (modified F/A-18), F/A-18 HARV (thrust vectoring), F-16 VISTA as examples. Said unit(s) could be sent into the field for evaluations, but aren't widespread.

I'm not convinced that ASC/REF technology base is incapable of the performance of RDF designs (Beta's engines are listed at Mach 7.x and that's carrying a dead weight of an Alpha w/unaerodynamic frame, the VF-1 only gets Mach 3.x). I really think what we are seeing is that various factors that go into selection of a design are being balanced differently due to changing requirements, not some lack of technology (or a technology backslide).

So... you protest that minimal changes to RAW should be made, but the only thing necessary to make the Macross II Valkyries fit with the 2044 era is raising their main body MDC about 25%, while making them fit the Macross Saga requires rewriting all their performance data. One value, versus a group of values...

I find adjusting the non-game data easier to justify and execute than going in and changing MDC/MD values (and you did not put a specific value previously, you had a range value 25-30%). These are supposed to be VF-1s afterall after porting them into the setting, not some new design so it would make sense that they should have closer stats (which the MDC already fits and doesn't need to be touched). Altering the MDC/MD values comes across as a "just because I can" mindset with no real rationale given...

The mecha actually don't need to see an improvement in MDC, even in the TSC setting in anycase (by RAW). The SAPs/MS/XX are comparable to TSC mecha, only the -2SS/JA are inferior but fit right in with the known VF-1 period. Given the SAPs modify the -2SS, they are the same as giving a stock VF-1 a FAST-Pack/GBP-1S so help place it during the VF-1 period (VF-1s aren't widely used if at all in later periods). The -1MS/XX are the same rough size as the Beta correct, yet they have less MDC overall (OVERALL = TOTAL) than the TSC/NG unit so are not an improvement as you suggest pointing toward them belonging in the past by RAW (there is a general trend of improvement in TOTAL MDC between stock units in 2E for VFs, the Logan being the oddball, by design dates for the design date).

Not really, no... the arms fold flush to the underside, and the legs are actually positioned outboard. It's rudely similar, but generally more different than alike. The actual transformation sequence is much changed, with fewer moving parts and a great deal less complexity.

They are similar enough, and as I've said before models can have noticeable differences between them and still be part of the same family. They don't need to look like near perfect copies to still be in the same family.

he Metal Siren in particular is an odd one, what with four modes and all, and the way the legs in particular are changed around during transformation is more in line with the Alpha's design than the VF-1's.

Don't know where you get the legs changes like the Alpha, the lineart for the -1MS shows a VF-1 layout at the site in your link (looks more like an outer section rotates around the baseline leg based on the foot, so it is not Alpha like).

I'm not sure if I would consider the Gundroid a separate mode, that's like saying the VHT-1 gets a new mode when it deploys it's armshield cannon in Battloid, or the Alpha when the shoulder sensor doesn't deploy in full-G, or the Alpha/Beta when they retract/deploy components to connect.

[Chronicler]

I think I figured out how to incorporate the Macross II material for my game. During colonization efforts the colonies needed their own D.F so the U.E.G. granted the designs for the VF-1 to the private sector (since privet sector companies where trailblazing the civilian side of colonization while the U.E.G had their U.E.E.F) which in turn made new designs off of the Vf-1 frame for private D.F's (like the S.M.S from Macross Frontier). So basically they would be frontier fighter in possibly low numbers while the U.E.G and U.E.E.F would have mass quantitys of the Alpha and Beta fighters.

but that's my two cents

[Seto Kaiba]

Wel.. I can say that i never watched macross 7... which probably went into detail (more then the other shows) on bendy beams and what not..
but i can swallow your bull for now.

Eh... the Macross 7 series is a tough one to get through, it's all about the spectacle and emotion of the thing rather than trying to be serious. 's basically Macross's answer to Mobile Fighter G Gundam in that sense.

It really is rich to have you say that I'M the one dispensing bull... my posts are thoroughly researched, and I can cite official sources for every last remark about Macross II. You, on the other hand, have lied, and tried to pretend you had access to material you actually didn't, and said the animation doesn't show things it actually does show... and generally made all manner of claims that anybody could refute with thirty seconds time and Google, or a quick glance through the animation.

EDIT: As of your most recent post at time of writing, your grand total of accurate statements made in this thread comes to two. The first was that "Gundroid" is the name of the Metal Siren's fourth mode, and your second was that Macross's canon includes video games for various systems including the original Sony Playstation and PC Engine. Two sentences, out of how many posts now?

your person has no verifiable 3rd party proof of his credentials of claims. Just about only 3 people back him on his claims. [...]

You may want to reconsider that remark, because you don't seem to understand what a "third party" is. If a number of other people (AKA "third parties") are backing me up on all this and also calling you out on all your various inept attempts at deceit, that would mean I have plenty of third parties willing to vouch for what I'm saying. There's a good reason nobody's coming to your aid here in this discussion... it's because everybody's able to see that you're BSing, and they know I'm reliable.

You want my credentials? That's fine. I'm the host of the Macross Mecha Manual, which is one of the most respected Macross reference sites. I'm also one of its contributing translators and scanners, and you'll find if you examine the site's credits. I've contributed to the Macross Compendium as well, and done original mechanical design and tech write-ups for the Macross: New Horizon MUSH, where I'm also a member of their GM staff. MacrossWorld generally regards me as the go-to guy for all things Macross II, and so did the Robotech.com community before that fell apart. Palladium forum users have been quoting my translations in this forum for years before I joined. Oh, and I'm also supplying OSM material to (presently) two writers who have started working on their own stats for various OSM content... jaymz is one of them.

The beauty of my translations is that I'm not the only one who owns copies of these sources, so other fans who do translations are right there to ensure the consistency and accuracy of my work. Because I can cite sources for everything, that means my statements can be validated. YOURS... on the other hand, can't, as the result of you generally making 'em up as you go, and the one source you've cited doesn't say any of the things you've claimed.

the rpg stats may be inaccurate, but they A)exist. B) Are readily available C) Have existed for decades prior to Seto decide to go Jehova Witness Bible on Macross II.same with sites like Dave deitriche, or what any sane person would know.

Here's another funny thing... the OSM stats are accurate, and they A. exist, B. are readily available, and C. existed for several years before Palladium or Dave Dietrich came along. Of course, my own edited version of the Macross II RPG also exists and has existed for years, though I've never really offered to make that version available online out of respect for Palladium, and because it's always sort of been the perpetual WIP.

the only area I fell in on his explanation of Dimeinsional lasers in Macross, since well, I did not read/see every macross source [...]

To be fair, with the claims you make it's highly doubtful that you've seen any Macross source... and we know you can't read 'em, so that's clearly right out.

since well A) they are hard to come by, B) have come out for platforms that are no longer commercially supported)
(for example, Macross Canon includes PC engine and Playstation 1 Titles that are No longer supported)

Eh? Most of this stuff isn't hard to come by at all. You can find copies of Macross art books old and new in ready circulation on eBay, Amazon, and other such sites. New and recent publications can be easily had via many different import book and toy stores on the web. Hell, I bought a fair few NewType issues covering the Macross Frontier series at the Japanese grocery store only about a block from my house. The animation can be had via legitimate channels or fansubs with very little difficulty as well... I personally have legit copies for every Macross title 'cept Macross FB7... and that one's only an exception because my copy is coming frigging SAL, so it'll be a few weeks yet.

The only catch (for you, anyway) is that this stuff is all in Japanese, though the US releases of the Super Dimension Fortress Macross original series, Macross II: Lovers Again, and Macross Plus can be obtained with subs and/or dub audio.

Video games are a bit harder, thanks to region-locks on some of the software, but it's not impossible... older video game consoles can be got on the cheap at many game retailers, and the games themselves turn up at intervals on auction sites and vintage game stores. Again, for you the chief obstacle isn't obtaining it, it's a language barrier preventing you from actually understanding it. It's a real crime, IMO, since some of the big Macross games like Macross M3 and Macross 30 were a lot of fun.

I've never had to go to any significant trouble to get my hands on anything Macross, even despite the Harmony Gold embargo on the stuff. Now... getting my hands on the old issues of The Anime for the original Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross... THAT was a tall order.

[Seto Kaiba]

So basically they would be frontier fighter in possibly low numbers while the U.E.G and U.E.E.F would have mass quantitys of the Alpha and Beta fighters.

but that's my two cents

Well, that might go a ways toward explaining why the private forces have superior aircraft to the government forces... an interesting take, to be sure.

(I'm still kind of miffed that Kawamori hasn't done more than show us the VF-24's fighter mode... it's the main ancestor of at least four current-gen VFs, including the VF-25, but we've never seen it transform.)

[glitterboy2098]

personally, i think seto's right on this one. i don't have the sources he has, but just watching the Macross II footage, i had noticed a lot of flaws in palladium's RPG stats. i never got around to 'fixing' them myself, because while i got all the books for that RPG (and enjoyed reading them, despite some of the more obvious flaws), i never had much intention of running Macross II on its own.. back then i saw it as something i could raid for stuff to drop into rifts or phase world.

that said, if all your looking for is material to drop into the 2nd ed robotech rpg, don't sweat the original macross canon. just treat the macross II RPG material the way you would something from Heroes Unlimited, Phase World, Systems Failure, or any other palladium game.. change just what you need to make it fit into the new RPG's power balance and background, then have fun.

[Seto Kaiba]

I compared the VF-2SS regular to the 2SS w/SAP

But what you didn't do was compare the VF-2SS w/ SAP to the VF-1 w/ SPS-01...

Radical reinvention is a result of RT's origins, but even internally we have two sagas that follow this revised thought consistently post TMS which shows that it is the superior approach over the TMS layout and approach.

Not really, no... what we have is a single generation of mecha, depicted across two sagas, where that same approach is used and largely found wanting. Remember, the official line (whether we like it or not) is that all the Southern Cross Army's mecha were not up to the job, and the Alpha was so deficient in several respects that a whole second craft needed to be bolted to it to bring it up to snuff. Then we have the return of the Macross-style FAST pack as part of the increasing percentage of Macross-isms in the story on a going-forward basis...

The -1MS does not need to be problem free in the revised timeline [...]

Long story short, you want to take the more invasive route for inserting them because you don't want the Alpha and Beta to look bad in the inevitable comparison.

I'm not convinced that ASC/REF technology base is incapable of the performance of RDF designs (Beta's engines are listed at Mach 7.x and that's carrying a dead weight of an Alpha w/unaerodynamic frame, the VF-1 only gets Mach 3.x).

Um... hate to break it to you, but neither the RPG nor the official spec lists the Beta's flight speeds when in docked configuration. The Beta's listed top speed of Mach 7.2 is for the Beta alone, in ballistic flight... that means it's not maneuvering, it's flying like a freaking rocket. In regular flight, the later mecha are all handily outclassed by the Macross Saga's VF-1.

I really think what we are seeing is that various factors that go into selection of a design are being balanced differently due to changing requirements, not some lack of technology (or a technology backslide).

But the official stance remains a technology backslide... so it's all gravy, eh?

They are similar enough, and as I've said before models can have noticeable differences between them and still be part of the same family. They don't need to look like near perfect copies to still be in the same family.

There's a difference between minor design changes and having two planes that don't even have the same basic shape or proportions.

Don't know where you get the legs changes like the Alpha, the lineart for the -1MS shows a VF-1 layout at the site in your link (looks more like an outer section rotates around the baseline leg based on the foot, so it is not Alpha like).

You might want to look again, mac... the stored configuration for the legs matches the Alpha's, and the fighter to battroid mode change matches it as well.

I'm not sure if I would consider the Gundroid a separate mode, that's like saying the VHT-1 gets a new mode when it deploys it's armshield cannon in Battloid, [...]

The original creators did, and the changes are rather more severe than that... it deploys six extra thrusters from its legs, the knees are removed entirely, and the wing configuration changes to optimize the thrust of those thrust-vectoring nozzles in the trailing edge of the wings. The beam guns in the intake mounts, that were retracted in battroid mode, are also extended again.

It's for a completely different purpose than regular Battroid mode... one might call it GERWALK mode's cousin, since it's halfway between plane and robot favoring the robot side rather than the plane side, optimized as a space dogfighter.

[Chronicler]

So basically they would be frontier fighter in possibly low numbers while the U.E.G and U.E.E.F would have mass quantitys of the Alpha and Beta fighters.

but that's my two cents

Well, that might go a ways toward explaining why the private forces have superior aircraft to the government forces... an interesting take, to be sure.

(I'm still kind of miffed that Kawamori hasn't done more than show us the VF-24's fighter mode... it's the main ancestor of at least four current-gen VFs, including the VF-25, but we've never seen it transform.)

So you think that is in the realm of possibility then? I'd imagine that because they are in a backwater section of colonized space they would need the extra firepower. Plus wasn't the U.E.G.s idea to do mass production for there fighters (quantity vs quality) in the official canon? I thought I read it somewhere but don't remember were so I could be wrong.

[ShadowLogan]

But what you didn't do was compare the VF-2SS w/ SAP to the VF-1 w/ SPS-01...

Why would that be necessary when discussing breaking the VF-2SS w/SAP MDC by Location up to reflect more locations, that can for simplicity be merged together. If all the SAP alterations for MDC locations are taken into consideration, they will basically double the number of locations to keep track of from the -2SS instead of the extra 2 that where not present before when moving to the SAP config which was the topic being discussed.

Not really, no... what we have is a single generation of mecha, depicted across two sagas, where that same approach is used and largely found wanting. Remember, the official line (whether we like it or not) is that all the Southern Cross Army's mecha were not up to the job, and the Alpha was so deficient in several respects that a whole second craft needed to be bolted to it to bring it up to snuff. Then we have the return of the Macross-style FAST pack as part of the increasing percentage of Macross-isms in the story on a going-forward basis...

What we find wanting has nothing to do with the factors identified. The layout of the limbs and transformation approach have nothing to do with the performance factors or ordnance load, and that was used on 4 VFs (6or7 with the -X-4/5/7), so the approach appears to be firmly done away with. Nor is the use of the FAST-Pack/bolt on systems confined to Macross Saga specifically, we can see another example in the VHT, so the UEEF using them is hardly an example of a Macross-ism since the concept itself is not limited to that one saga.

Long story short, you want to take the more invasive route for inserting them because you don't want the Alpha and Beta to look bad in the inevitable comparison.

No. Long story short, there are ways to bring the -1MS in and explain the UEEF not going with the design based on existing examples (VF-X-4/5/7, VR-041) that can be reused since there are at least 4 instances mentioned that use cost/complexity. The cost/complexity of those internal launchers is certainly going to be more than it is for the VFA-6 if it is the first to use system in a Veritech.

Um... hate to break it to you, but neither the RPG nor the official spec lists the Beta's flight speeds when in docked configuration. The Beta's listed top speed of Mach 7.2 is for the Beta alone, in ballistic flight... that means it's not maneuvering, it's flying like a freaking rocket. In regular flight, the later mecha are all handily outclassed by the Macross Saga's VF-1.

I am aware that the stat was for ballistic flight, but it still shows the UEEF can build engines with the power of the UEDF-RDF ones. For whatever reason, the UEEF/UEDF-ASC does not seek maximum performance in that area.

Whatever the TPTB are basing their "backslide" on, it isn't based on what is in the show.

There's a difference between minor design changes and having two planes that don't even have the same basic shape or proportions.

I'm sure I could list plenty of examples that don't conform to the minor change and still regarded as part of a specific "family". I'm just not going to since you will just dismiss them.

What differences there are in the -1MS and -2JA/SS compared to the VF-1 in RT are minor and it is not unheard of for different models to have different sizes either.

You might want to look again, mac... the stored configuration for the legs matches the Alpha's, and the fighter to battroid mode change matches it as well.

I did, the foot (along with the entire leg) on the Alpha is rotated 90deg during the transformation, the foot (and intake section above the knee) on the VF-1MS does not. The Foot orientation in fighter mode lines up with what we see on the the VF-1, not the Alpha. The section between the knee and ankle does rotate, but it is not Alpha like at all.

The original creators did, and the changes are rather more severe than that... it deploys six extra thrusters from its legs, the knees are removed entirely, and the wing configuration changes to optimize the thrust of those thrust-vectoring nozzles in the trailing edge of the wings. The beam guns in the intake mounts, that were retracted in battroid mode, are also extended again.

That the original creators did is not in dispute, but from the Robotech mindset it may not be enough to qualify as a new mode:
-extra thrusters are in that position in Gaurdian mode basically (we see the Alpha & VF-1 in G mode w/o arms, the Alpha even in some type of G config w/o legs apparently, the Alpha w/o shoulder pod in G mode but none are really treated as separate modes)
-movement of the wings doesn't qualify as a new mode, considering the VF-1 proper is depicted on a few occasions with the wings out in Battloid mode
-retractable weapon show it to be a new mode (case in point VHT)
-loss of a jointed structure (Alpha loses it's vertical tails during link up, but I don't see anyone considering that a unique mode)

[Seto Kaiba]

seto, you're going jehovah witness bible on us again. [...]

First some mild racism, now some religious bigotry? Man, you really gotta clean up your act.

You expect Everyone to accept on blind faith everything you claim. fine.

Um... you sure you're not talking about yourself there? You'll note nobody in this thread except you is saying I've asked them to accept anything on blind faith. They know full well that that's the exact opposite of what I'm about. I'm pretty adamant about citing sources and making sure that information is meticulously accurate and verifiable. You, on the other hand, have asked us to accept your word on blind faith, to the extent that you asked us to take your word over the contents of the animation and OSM itself. You lied, repeatedly, about the sources of your information, and claimed you were drawing on the OSM when, in truth, you cannot read or speak Japanese. It's you who's asking the people here to take your claims on blind faith, bereft of, and often in direct contradiction to, the actual facts.

Except When Most people ran Macross II it was from 1995 to 2006, years before you became "Grand Deacon of the Jehova witnesses of Macross OSM Translation" [...]

Actually, my research into Macross II started in 2003... which happens to be inside that time period you stated. It was originally for my own game, which ran for seven years as a play-by-post game, but took on a life of its own once other fans started expressing an interest in my work.

but no matter how much you huff, I'm not going to run Macross II as an OSM campagign, because well. in the OSM THEY ANNIHILATE THE ENEMY AND LEAVE NO CREDIBLE CONTINUATION.

When, in this thread, have I suggested that you, personally, should or must run an OSM-accurate campaign? Never, in point of fact.

I see you've decided to finish this tirade on form, with a patently untrue statement. Had you actually ever watched Macross II, even that admittedly pretty awful dub, you'd know that the show doesn't end in anything like the manner you described here. The final episode of the OVA ends with the Mardook Empire's signing of a peace treaty with the UN Government, and then the Mardook leave Earth in peace. This is the recurring theme throughout all the main Macross titles... the war isn't won by annihilating the enemy's forces, it ends when the two sides finally open a dialog and end the fight with mutual understanding.

The war with the Mardook ending in a peace treaty doesn't need to be the end of the story, and it doesn't leave the plot with no credible continuation. There could be dissenting parties in the Mardook Empire which want to reopen hostilities, there could be other hostile groups like the Mardook roaming the galaxy, or Earth could find the conflict attracted the attention of the the thousands of Zentradi and Meltrandi fleets fighting their never-ending war. You could also take the route Macross II writer Sukehiro Tomita's novelization took, with humanity returning its attention to the colonization of other star systems for the first time since 2054's massive Zentradi invasion. There are all manner of possibilities. I've used several of these ideas for my own game.

[Seto Kaiba]

So you think that is in the realm of possibility then? I'd imagine that because they are in a backwater section of colonized space they would need the extra firepower. [...]

I could see it happening, if Robotech's United Earth Government had colonies in deep space... especially since humanity quickly discovered the galaxy was a pretty dangerous place. If they're short of manpower, a higher performance and more expensive fighter might seem like an attractive option if it lets them maximize a single soldier's combat ability. Fusion-based platforms like the VF-1 would be an especially attractive choice when a colony is working with unreliable chains of supply, since the one protoculture matrix in the galaxy got sent onto the frontlines with the SDF-3. You can get hydrogen anywhere, after all.

It could even be handled as the game-changer in the Haydonite war... the Ark Angel or whatever flees blindly into a colonized system where the new fusion-powered fighters are used, and are rescued by colonial forces using those high-performance fighters that are immune to Haydonite disruptor waves. A "mid-season upgrade" for your players, to let them take the fight to the enemy for once.

Plus wasn't the U.E.G.s idea to do mass production for there fighters (quantity vs quality) in the official canon? I thought I read it somewhere but don't remember were so I could be wrong.

Offhand, I don't recall anything in Robotech's limited official resources that explicitly says that the UEG's plan was to emphasize quantity over quality... though I think that's usually seen as the common sense reason behind the rejection of the VF-4 in favor of the lower performance VF/A-6 series, since the VF-4 is said to be extremely expensive and complex to maintain by comparison.

[Chronicler]

So you think that is in the realm of possibility then? I'd imagine that because they are in a backwater section of colonized space they would need the extra firepower. [...]

I could see it happening, if Robotech's United Earth Government had colonies in deep space... especially since humanity quickly discovered the galaxy was a pretty dangerous place. If they're short of manpower, a higher performance and more expensive fighter might seem like an attractive option if it lets them maximize a single soldier's combat ability. Fusion-based platforms like the VF-1 would be an especially attractive choice when a colony is working with unreliable chains of supply, since the one protoculture matrix in the galaxy got sent onto the frontlines with the SDF-3. You can get hydrogen anywhere, after all.

It could even be handled as the game-changer in the Haydonite war... the Ark Angel or whatever flees blindly into a colonized system where the new fusion-powered fighters are used, and are rescued by colonial forces using those high-performance fighters that are immune to Haydonite disruptor waves. A "mid-season upgrade" for your players, to let them take the fight to the enemy for once.

Plus wasn't the U.E.G.s idea to do mass production for there fighters (quantity vs quality) in the official canon? I thought I read it somewhere but don't remember were so I could be wrong.

Offhand, I don't recall anything in Robotech's limited official resources that explicitly says that the UEG's plan was to emphasize quantity over quality... though I think that's usually seen as the common sense reason behind the rejection of the VF-4 in favor of the lower performance VF/A-6 series, since the VF-4 is said to be extremely expensive and complex to maintain by comparison.

Cool thanks for the idea. This could also work with a rifts crossover too (though they would still get annielated, damn you techno-wizardry ).

[Seto Kaiba]

Cool thanks for the idea. This could also work with a rifts crossover too (though they would still get annielated, damn you techno-wizardry ).

Glad you like it. Not too familiar with Rifts here, so I dunno about that. My group did a thing recently that had Macross Frontier-era units cross over into ~2044 Robotech, and that made for an interesting session... really highlighted some of the balance issues with our MD scaling vs. older settings.

[jedi078]

Currently (as others have said) I make use of the decks plans because they are IMO better than the deck plans in the Robotech RPG books.

The Meltradi ships are also useful. There’s really no way Dolza’s armada was composed of only six different ship types.

The Marduck mecha can simply be used (again) as different mecha used by the Zentraedi. Or maybe as a GM you want to introduce the Marduck (and their mecha) as yet another belligerent faction.

I can vouch for Seto supplying info....I am one of the people he has helped with not just Macross II but Macross in general.

Indeed... it occurs to me that one change that would have to be made that hasn't been mentioned yet was related to missiles. Mini-missiles are guided in the Macross II game, but not RT2E, and that's what the VF-2SS uses. They'd have to be changed to SRMs to be compliant with 2E, or the M2 guided mini-missiles could be adopted instead (which would, frankly, be more consistent with the series).

The fact that we see mini-missiles arc toward their targets in New Gen leads me to believe that contrary to what the RPG states UEEF mini-missiles are in fact guided. Furthermore the Q-Rau's missiles are classified as mini-missiles in the 2nd edition RPG, but yet we see them arcing towards their targets as well in the anime.

Last since there has been work to make a guided 70mm Hydra missile I see no reason for why the 70mm mini-missiles from the Macross Sourcebook can't be guided either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_70#P ... d_Hydra_70

[Seto Kaiba]

The fact that we see mini-missiles arc toward their targets in New Gen leads me to believe that contrary to what the RPG states UEEF mini-missiles are in fact guided.

Oh, my friend, you don't need to suppose... that's actually a demonstrable fact from the animation. We see a lock-on style targeting graphic in the Ride Armor's pop-out targeting screen fairly often (see Entertainment Archive 8: MOSPEADA Complete Art Works pg37 lower half for the production notes on it), and the OSM is fairly definite that all missiles are guided missiles in both MOSPEADA and Macross. As far as what's down for Macross, most missiles have hybrid guidance that combines two or more typical systems (radar, IR, optical, and so on), while MOSPEADA is not specific but seems to favor either radar or TV based on existing notes and the visuals.

Last since there has been work to make a guided 70mm Hydra missile I see no reason for why the 70mm mini-missiles from the Macross Sourcebook can't be guided either.

There's a weird bit on that front, what I suspect may be an intentional NERF to the VF-1's MLOPs (actually a UUM-7 micro-missile pod, which actually doesn't appear in Robotech) to keep their the 60 missiles those carry from rendering the Alpha pointless.

OSM-ly, the missiles used in the UUM-7 pod (RTRPG: MLOP) are the exact same model of micro-missile used with the launchers in the VF-1's FAST pack boosters... the Howard Bifors HMM-01 micro-missile. Somehow, in the writing of RT2E, the same model of missile was made a mini-missile in the MLOP and a SRM in the FAST pack.

EDIT: Sorry, I goofed... wrong micro-missile manufacturer. It's Bifors, not Howard.

[ShadowLogan]

The fact that we see mini-missiles arc toward their targets in New Gen leads me to believe that contrary to what the RPG states UEEF mini-missiles are in fact guided. Furthermore the Q-Rau's missiles are classified as mini-missiles in the 2nd edition RPG, but yet we see them arcing towards their targets as well in the anime.

Personally I'd just ignore that bit about the guidance systems for 2E RT (out of habbit from 1E and pre-RUE rules) as it doesn't make any sense, and it clearly is a bad copy-paste from Rifts UE. Just about all the missiles we see can be considered guided as they arc and alter trajectories (examples Cyclone, Alpha, Beta, AGAC, etc), but don't get bonuses to strike from the launcher (where PB says the guidance bonuses got moved to).

If they're short of manpower, a higher performance and more expensive fighter might seem like an attractive option if it lets them maximize a single soldier's combat ability. Fusion-based platforms like the VF-1 would be an especially attractive choice when a colony is working with unreliable chains of supply, since the one protoculture matrix in the galaxy got sent onto the frontlines with the SDF-3. You can get hydrogen anywhere, after all.

But we know the UEEF is not attracted to high performance/expensive fighters during the 2020-2044, so it is unlikely such options exist in the private sector for them to simply acquire. And if these are private militias, they likely aren't going to be attracted to the option either unless they are rolling in the money to pay for it and can sustain it. Cost doesn't stop once the platform is paid for, you have to continue to pay for replacement parts and maintenance man hours.

Those colonies likely have surplus/old RDF/ASC hardware. I wouldn't put it past them to have SLMH converted UEEF mecha either (if an SLMH platform can be converted one way, the reverse should also be possible). Those engines could be rated to slide in as substitutes for the PC engines (no performance loss/gain, those endurance will suffer), or different to address some short comings (increase thrust). It is not unheard of for craft to have multiple engine options during its life (F-14 received new engines, F-15/22/16/35 families all have flown with different engines, the F-5 family replaced the twin engines with a single new engine in the F-20/5G model, etc).

[Chronicler]

The fact that we see mini-missiles arc toward their targets in New Gen leads me to believe that contrary to what the RPG states UEEF mini-missiles are in fact guided. Furthermore the Q-Rau's missiles are classified as mini-missiles in the 2nd edition RPG, but yet we see them arcing towards their targets as well in the anime.

Personally I'd just ignore that bit about the guidance systems for 2E RT (out of habbit from 1E and pre-RUE rules) as it doesn't make any sense, and it clearly is a bad copy-paste from Rifts UE. Just about all the missiles we see can be considered guided as they arc and alter trajectories (examples Cyclone, Alpha, Beta, AGAC, etc), but don't get bonuses to strike from the launcher (where PB says the guidance bonuses got moved to).

If they're short of manpower, a higher performance and more expensive fighter might seem like an attractive option if it lets them maximize a single soldier's combat ability. Fusion-based platforms like the VF-1 would be an especially attractive choice when a colony is working with unreliable chains of supply, since the one protoculture matrix in the galaxy got sent onto the frontlines with the SDF-3. You can get hydrogen anywhere, after all.

But we know the UEEF is not attracted to high performance/expensive fighters during the 2020-2044, so it is unlikely such options exist in the private sector for them to simply acquire. And if these are private militias, they likely aren't going to be attracted to the option either unless they are rolling in the money to pay for it and can sustain it. Cost doesn't stop once the platform is paid for, you have to continue to pay for replacement parts and maintenance man hours.

Those colonies likely have surplus/old RDF/ASC hardware. I wouldn't put it past them to have SLMH converted UEEF mecha either (if an SLMH platform can be converted one way, the reverse should also be possible). Those engines could be rated to slide in as substitutes for the PC engines (no performance loss/gain, those endurance will suffer), or different to address some short comings (increase thrust). It is not unheard of for craft to have multiple engine options during its life (F-14 received new engines, F-15/22/16/35 families all have flown with different engines, the F-5 family replaced the twin engines with a single new engine in the F-20/5G model, etc).

Well there has to be some boon for companies with FTL and off world colonization. The market for mining and terraforming could bring in the money to at least have a few high performance fighter. That being said I'm going off of the Weyland-Yutani, Umbrella Corporation sort of mentality (it's fiction and anything can go really).

[jaymz]

Rappa - problem is as usual you're assumption is wrong

Rtech.com went south for the opposite reasons. The few who refused to accept tbe new way harmony gold did things repeatedly attacked those who did accept it (point of fact Seto was accepting of the new way harmony gd did things). Now it's just people who blindly support everything they do attack anyone even remotely disagrees.

You really need to stop making assumptions about thing you know nothing about.

[ShadowLogan]

The fact that we see mini-missiles arc toward their targets in New Gen leads me to believe that contrary to what the RPG states UEEF mini-missiles are in fact guided. Furthermore the Q-Rau's missiles are classified as mini-missiles in the 2nd edition RPG, but yet we see them arcing towards their targets as well in the anime.

Personally I'd just ignore that bit about the guidance systems for 2E RT (out of habbit from 1E and pre-RUE rules) as it doesn't make any sense, and it clearly is a bad copy-paste from Rifts UE. Just about all the missiles we see can be considered guided as they arc and alter trajectories (examples Cyclone, Alpha, Beta, AGAC, etc), but don't get bonuses to strike from the launcher (where PB says the guidance bonuses got moved to).

If they're short of manpower, a higher performance and more expensive fighter might seem like an attractive option if it lets them maximize a single soldier's combat ability. Fusion-based platforms like the VF-1 would be an especially attractive choice when a colony is working with unreliable chains of supply, since the one protoculture matrix in the galaxy got sent onto the frontlines with the SDF-3. You can get hydrogen anywhere, after all.

But we know the UEEF is not attracted to high performance/expensive fighters during the 2020-2044, so it is unlikely such options exist in the private sector for them to simply acquire. And if these are private militias, they likely aren't going to be attracted to the option either unless they are rolling in the money to pay for it and can sustain it. Cost doesn't stop once the platform is paid for, you have to continue to pay for replacement parts and maintenance man hours.

Those colonies likely have surplus/old RDF/ASC hardware. I wouldn't put it past them to have SLMH converted UEEF mecha either (if an SLMH platform can be converted one way, the reverse should also be possible). Those engines could be rated to slide in as substitutes for the PC engines (no performance loss/gain, those endurance will suffer), or different to address some short comings (increase thrust). It is not unheard of for craft to have multiple engine options during its life (F-14 received new engines, F-15/22/16/35 families all have flown with different engines, the F-5 family replaced the twin engines with a single new engine in the F-20/5G model, etc).

Well there has to be some boon for companies with FTL and off world colonization. The market for mining and terraforming could bring in the money to at least have a few high performance fighter. That being said I'm going off of the Weyland-Yutani, Umbrella Corporation sort of mentality (it's fiction and anything can go really).

The problem is that will help drive the cost down for the military/govt to purchase as more are purchased and built, which could make the performance more affordable bringing us back to the question of why the UEEF went with A/Bs instead of these colonial units. It wouldn't be because of Cost, because with more than one customer and a larger production run the overall cost is reduced.

I don't think corporations are that inclined to waste money on the latest and greatest thing, they are after all out to make a profit. Corporations and colonies in general are also going to have smaller budgets to work with than the UEG/UEDF/UEEF. That's going to make them ask hard questions if certain capabilities and performance marks are really necessary for any military grade equipment they acquire for the job they need it to perform. As less expensive/capable options likely exist to pull off the same thing in multi-unit packages.

And not all of the NG mecha's short comings are final. They can update the engines (-6Z shows there is room for improvement) and make alterations to the airframe (-6Z, -6S/X, -6Q) to alter baseline performance, and even add external hardpoints (likely mode limited) for BVR weapons. What we see isn't an indication of they can't do X, but rather X is not considered important/necessary enough for them to do.

[Chronicler]

The fact that we see mini-missiles arc toward their targets in New Gen leads me to believe that contrary to what the RPG states UEEF mini-missiles are in fact guided. Furthermore the Q-Rau's missiles are classified as mini-missiles in the 2nd edition RPG, but yet we see them arcing towards their targets as well in the anime.

Personally I'd just ignore that bit about the guidance systems for 2E RT (out of habbit from 1E and pre-RUE rules) as it doesn't make any sense, and it clearly is a bad copy-paste from Rifts UE. Just about all the missiles we see can be considered guided as they arc and alter trajectories (examples Cyclone, Alpha, Beta, AGAC, etc), but don't get bonuses to strike from the launcher (where PB says the guidance bonuses got moved to).

If they're short of manpower, a higher performance and more expensive fighter might seem like an attractive option if it lets them maximize a single soldier's combat ability. Fusion-based platforms like the VF-1 would be an especially attractive choice when a colony is working with unreliable chains of supply, since the one protoculture matrix in the galaxy got sent onto the frontlines with the SDF-3. You can get hydrogen anywhere, after all.

But we know the UEEF is not attracted to high performance/expensive fighters during the 2020-2044, so it is unlikely such options exist in the private sector for them to simply acquire. And if these are private militias, they likely aren't going to be attracted to the option either unless they are rolling in the money to pay for it and can sustain it. Cost doesn't stop once the platform is paid for, you have to continue to pay for replacement parts and maintenance man hours.

Those colonies likely have surplus/old RDF/ASC hardware. I wouldn't put it past them to have SLMH converted UEEF mecha either (if an SLMH platform can be converted one way, the reverse should also be possible). Those engines could be rated to slide in as substitutes for the PC engines (no performance loss/gain, those endurance will suffer), or different to address some short comings (increase thrust). It is not unheard of for craft to have multiple engine options during its life (F-14 received new engines, F-15/22/16/35 families all have flown with different engines, the F-5 family replaced the twin engines with a single new engine in the F-20/5G model, etc).

Well there has to be some boon for companies with FTL and off world colonization. The market for mining and terraforming could bring in the money to at least have a few high performance fighter. That being said I'm going off of the Weyland-Yutani, Umbrella Corporation sort of mentality (it's fiction and anything can go really).

The problem is that will help drive the cost down for the military/govt to purchase as more are purchased and built, which could make the performance more affordable bringing us back to the question of why the UEEF went with A/Bs instead of these colonial units. It wouldn't be because of Cost, because with more than one customer and a larger production run the overall cost is reduced.

I don't think corporations are that inclined to waste money on the latest and greatest thing, they are after all out to make a profit. Corporations and colonies in general are also going to have smaller budgets to work with than the UEG/UEDF/UEEF. That's going to make them ask hard questions if certain capabilities and performance marks are really necessary for any military grade equipment they acquire for the job they need it to perform. As less expensive/capable options likely exist to pull off the same thing in multi-unit packages.

And not all of the NG mecha's short comings are final. They can update the engines (-6Z shows there is room for improvement) and make alterations to the airframe (-6Z, -6S/X, -6Q) to alter baseline performance, and even add external hardpoints (likely mode limited) for BVR weapons. What we see isn't an indication of they can't do X, but rather X is not considered important/necessary enough for them to do.

And this is why I like bouncing ideas off of people, I would never think of stuff like that. So in order for us to incorporate Macross II mecha into Robotech the only thing I can come up with now is a Rifts style campaign. That's the way I see it now with all facts laid down.

[ShadowLogan]

It's not so much that M2 MUST come in to RT Rifts-style, but the only real way to incorporate the (human) hardware is to use it as experimental prototypes and/or silverbullet stuff as opposed to main stream mass production type platforms, the Marduk are a bit easier to drop-in since it is unlikely PCs will be using their equipment.

I suppose you could have the M2 stuff introduced as coming from another race (be it a human off-shoot like Tirolians/Zentreadi or some other race and Rifts has plenty to use and even random creation). But again, that is probably setting it up more for non-PC use.

[Seto Kaiba]

But we know the UEEF is not attracted to high performance/expensive fighters during the 2020-2044, so it is unlikely such options exist in the private sector for them to simply acquire. [...]

Not accurate... we know that the UEEF was not attracted to a high-performance fighter from 2014-2022, but they were effectively cut off and had to make do for much of their time away from Earth. The Alpha did show several significant deficiencies which resulted in efforts to improve the platform, but there's nothing to stop a colony from independently developing their own alternatives... especially as any colonies established would be effectively on their own, and established before many Masters War-era mecha came into service.

And if these are private militias, they likely aren't going to be attracted to the option either unless they are rolling in the money to pay for it and can sustain it. Cost doesn't stop once the platform is paid for, you have to continue to pay for replacement parts and maintenance man hours.

If the alternative is to purchase a substantially deficient aircraft that depends on a fuel they cannot produce independently, the sole source of which is in a situation that sets the gold standard for "unreliable supply", it would be more practical for them to develop something else that keeps them independent of the protoculture supply problem and meets the needs of system defense better than what the ASC has to offer. If they have fewer pilots due to a smaller population, a higher-performance craft to maximize the effectiveness of each of their pilots would be more cost effective than a bunch of underperforming flying coffins.

And this is why I like bouncing ideas off of people, I would never think of stuff like that. So in order for us to incorporate Macross II mecha into Robotech the only thing I can come up with now is a Rifts style campaign. That's the way I see it now with all facts laid down.

Eh... ShadowLogan tends to take a rather optimistic view of the Alpha, whereas I tend towards a more realistic assessment. A colony that is cut off from support the way that any extrasolar colonies would be in a 2nd or 3rd Robotech War situation would probably see a certain amount of sense in developing its own forces, due to a lack of outside support.

The attempts to fix the Alpha's shortcomings are exactly what that sentence implies... quick-fix band-aids to address failings in a platform that isn't up to the demands being placed on it. The Beta was needed because the Alpha's engines and fuel fell short of what the Earth Forces were used to... and is not nearly as resource efficient as having one, slightly larger plane that is transatmospheric like a Valkyrie II or Metal Siren. There's the attempt to band-aid the Alpha's less than stellar atmospheric flight performance with a brute force power boost at the expensive of fuel consumption (the VF/A-6Z), but that doesn't seem to have panned out, since even the new Shadow fighters are using the older engine from the -H and -I models. The Beta is supposedly also there to band-aid the lack of BVR weaponry, but at the expensive of a whole second aircraft that can't operate gracefully in atmosphere. The Super Shadow Fighter was the UEEF's final attempt to band-aid their main fighter's deficiencies in space operations, and that will probably be the last we hear of the Alpha, since every single Shadow fighter is now a liability.

One of the things that was planned for RTSC was the replacement of the VF/A-6 platform with a new design that Tommy Yune did for the film... though the VF-13 Gamma Fighter never made it to the animation. It may yet appear, but even if it doesn't we know that the creative staff is angling towards the position that the Alpha's days are numbered.

[Chronicler]

But we know the UEEF is not attracted to high performance/expensive fighters during the 2020-2044, so it is unlikely such options exist in the private sector for them to simply acquire. [...]

Not accurate... we know that the UEEF was not attracted to a high-performance fighter from 2014-2022, but they were effectively cut off and had to make do for much of their time away from Earth. The Alpha did show several significant deficiencies which resulted in efforts to improve the platform, but there's nothing to stop a colony from independently developing their own alternatives... especially as any colonies established would be effectively on their own, and established before many Masters War-era mecha came into service.

And if these are private militias, they likely aren't going to be attracted to the option either unless they are rolling in the money to pay for it and can sustain it. Cost doesn't stop once the platform is paid for, you have to continue to pay for replacement parts and maintenance man hours.

If the alternative is to purchase a substantially deficient aircraft that depends on a fuel they cannot produce independently, the sole source of which is in a situation that sets the gold standard for "unreliable supply", it would be more practical for them to develop something else that keeps them independent of the protoculture supply problem and meets the needs of system defense better than what the ASC has to offer. If they have fewer pilots due to a smaller population, a higher-performance craft to maximize the effectiveness of each of their pilots would be more cost effective than a bunch of underperforming flying coffins.

And this is why I like bouncing ideas off of people, I would never think of stuff like that. So in order for us to incorporate Macross II mecha into Robotech the only thing I can come up with now is a Rifts style campaign. That's the way I see it now with all facts laid down.

Eh... ShadowLogan tends to take a rather optimistic view of the Alpha, whereas I tend towards a more realistic assessment. A colony that is cut off from support the way that any extrasolar colonies would be in a 2nd or 3rd Robotech War situation would probably see a certain amount of sense in developing its own forces, due to a lack of outside support.

The attempts to fix the Alpha's shortcomings are exactly what that sentence implies... quick-fix band-aids to address failings in a platform that isn't up to the demands being placed on it. The Beta was needed because the Alpha's engines and fuel fell short of what the Earth Forces were used to... and is not nearly as resource efficient as having one, slightly larger plane that is transatmospheric like a Valkyrie II or Metal Siren. There's the attempt to band-aid the Alpha's less than stellar atmospheric flight performance with a brute force power boost at the expensive of fuel consumption (the VF/A-6Z), but that doesn't seem to have panned out, since even the new Shadow fighters are using the older engine from the -H and -I models. The Beta is supposedly also there to band-aid the lack of BVR weaponry, but at the expensive of a whole second aircraft that can't operate gracefully in atmosphere. The Super Shadow Fighter was the UEEF's final attempt to band-aid their main fighter's deficiencies in space operations, and that will probably be the last we hear of the Alpha, since every single Shadow fighter is now a liability.

One of the things that was planned for RTSC was the replacement of the VF/A-6 platform with a new design that Tommy Yune did for the film... though the VF-13 Gamma Fighter never made it to the animation. It may yet appear, but even if it doesn't we know that the creative staff is angling towards the position that the Alpha's days are numbered.

Think Yune would allow it as official material for a future source book?

[Seto Kaiba]

Borrowing from Macross timeline, you could have the M2- Un spacy as being humans who got deep space shifted to the Gaia planet they show in Macrosss Plus. ... The Valks there make perfect sense then.

...
...
...
Um... the planet in Macross Plus is named Eden, not Gaia. You may be confusing it with the other Earth from Shoji Kawamori's non-Macross project The Vision of Escaflowne, which was called Gaia.

EDIT: Also, what the heck is a "Deep space shift"? That's not anything from Macross either... or Robotech.

Think Yune would allow it as official material for a future source book?

It's possible, but for the time being Harmony Gold seems to want to avoiding having Palladium write them into any corners regarding the future development of the "Shadow Saga". Maybe if they use it in the next installment.

[jaymz]

I've read all the comics multiple times and I don't recall ANYTHING even close to a "deep space shift".....

[jaymz]

Yes I've read them. It'll be a bit for me to go check them unless you can recall a page number and issue to save time.

[Seto Kaiba]

Deep space shift is the term they used in the robotech comics For the jump from Earth to the Robotech master homeworld. It's not a reference to how it got there, but a reference to distance.

Hm... I don't recall that either, but it has been a while since I read any of the Robotech comics. Can you cite an issue and page number for that?

Also, I don't think that would really apply for Eden... the Masters trip to Earth was from another galaxy, while Eden is the closest extrasolar colony in Macross at a distance of only 11.7 light years. The trip there is barely a commuter flight by Macross's standards, and Robotech is even more cavalier about longer distances than Macross is.

If we're talking the sort of setup Chronicler is thinking about, only a far-flung or isolated colony would really have much motivation to develop their own mecha independent of the UEG. Eden is practically right next door by either universe's standards.

really? you've read all the comics from the 1980s to the 2000's series? Well, it was the language used in the aCademy Comics..

's not that uncommon, actually. A lot of the older fans just bought the stuff as it came out, and the young un's like me were able to buy 'em secondhand from disenchanted former fans flogging their collections on an assortment of online auction sites. I got print copies of virtually everything (except Clone and, I think, that Mordecai series), along with the Robotech Art trilogy and the novels, for $5 and change at a garage sale. I only had to independently track down Prelude and the Art of RTSC book. Didn't think much of 'em, but at a price like that I can hardly complain about it.

[ShadowLogan]

Not accurate... we know that the UEEF was not attracted to a high-performance fighter from 2014-2022, but they were effectively cut off and had to make do for much of their time away from Earth.

The UEEF wasn't cut off until circa 2030. High-performance single package units don't seem to interest them even into 2044, otherwise the UEEF wouldn't have been testing SSFs, they would have been testing all new designs.

The Alpha did show several significant deficiencies which resulted in efforts to improve the platform, but there's nothing to stop a colony from independently developing their own alternatives... especially as any colonies established would be effectively on their own, and established before many Masters War-era mecha came into service.

Aside from the resources necessary to pull it off. Even today not every nation on the planet has the ability to design and build their own aircraft (and spacecraft and nuclear technology).

[qutote="Seto"]If the alternative is to purchase a substantially deficient aircraft that depends on a fuel they cannot produce independently,[/quote]
The question has to be asked if those "deficiencies" are actual issues for the Colonies who could have different requirements than the UEEF for the militaries. That exra performance in those higher cost fighters may not be needed. Then you have to consider how much commonality and interoperability with the UEEF they would want.

As for fuel, it is possible to change the engines, even to ones that use different fuel/propellants (X-15 as an example, and as the RPG's IMUs show SLMH=>PC is certainly possible). There is no need to design an entirely new ground up platform for the colonies, when modifying the existing platform can do the job quicker.

If they have fewer pilots due to a smaller population, a higher-performance craft to maximize the effectiveness of each of their pilots would be more cost effective than a bunch of underperforming flying coffins.

In theory that does make sense, but in actual practice you may end up with too small a force to do the job(s) you want them to perform effectively since the colonies don't have unlimited resources to devote to these high-performance fighters.

nd is not nearly as resource efficient as having one, slightly larger plane that is transatmospheric like a Valkyrie II or Metal Siren.

And yet militaries don't always go for the one-plane solution or the one with certain advantages in the real world.

[quote="Seto"There's the attempt to band-aid the Alpha's less than stellar atmospheric flight performance with a brute force power boost at the expensive of fuel consumption (the VF/A-6Z),[/quote]
They did not limit the -6Z to brute force, they also altered the control surfaces.

[Alrik Vas]

Waaaaay back my old RT group just used VF-1's for everything. We were "those guys", that one squadron that was still RDF, back on Earth, flying the old birds and colors. Because they killed everything good. The VF-2SS is, well, yeah, strictly better (aside difficient atmospheric capability...though it's been a while since I read M2, so I could be wrong). So using those post Reflex Point would mean a better fighter than the one that's already better than the one your using.

Seems good to me.

[Seto Kaiba]

The relative disparity in performance can be explained by someone choosing to use much larger frames to avoid sub-dividing the abilities between two fighters, linked to a dramatic improvement in technology since the inception of the Alpha and Beta that weren't utilized because of two main reasons. [...]

Pretty much, yeah... the official Robotech materials contradict the RPG a bit when it comes to how long the Alpha's been in large-scale service (20+ years officially, 13 years RPG), but in either case the Alpha's not exactly a spring chicken. The platform it's on is pushing thirty, and had issues from the word go that haven't really been fixed. The Alpha's deficiencies in performance, endurance, and armament basically led to a hasty and unnecessarily expensive fix called the Beta fighter, while its indifferent performance as an actual combat aircraft (rather than just a delivery system for a giant robot) was addressed with an apparently unsuccessful (or otherwise unviable) brute force fix in the form of the VF/A-6Z variant, the fact that its power plant's one huge liability led to a fundamentally unsound redesign of the entire platform that sacrificed its one distinctive advantage over other models of fighter, and one last attempt to band-aid its space performance that turned out to be just more brute force attempts to fix what was fundamentally beyond fixing and ended up being an attractive option only because the project went unfinished.

Second, the UEEF really couldn't afford to make the switch at the time resource and time wise when it really wasn't needed, and was simply far easier to upgrade and variant their main combat units instead. [...]

That does appear to be the case.

Both the official material and the RPG go hand in hand on the subject of the UEEF basically flying the craft in their inventory until the accumulated wear and tear practically left them falling to pieces on the hangar floor. The Beta was revived because the Conbats they had were trashed by years on the front lines.

So the UEEF says "make this!" to the R&D guys, and some bright spark resurrects the Valkyrie concept in whole or in part, and then they come up with the VF-2SS, though a designation change might be in order, and an official name as well...VF-14 Neo-Valkyrie or New Valkyrie or Gamma or what ever you want really.

It really does come through as common sense. The Alpha and Beta combined are two planes trying to do the same jobs that one plane (the VF-1) did just as well, if not better. The four-engine configuration is a familiar one, and the application of railgun tech is right in line with where the UEEF's at in 2044. It wouldn't take the UEEF much thinking to fall back on a familiar, tried-and-true multi-role design and say "How can we make this work with our needs now?". The VF-1 had at least five times the Alpha's fuel capacity for space flight, while the Valkyrie II platform has even more. The larger airframe can take larger, higher-powered engines than the aging Alpha airframe can, and with external fittings it can not only lug a mix of long and short-ranged missiles (the Beta supposedly can't take LRMs in the RPG) that allows it to fill the roles formerly occupied by both the Alpha and Beta in a single, more effective platform. Add in a collection of gun drones to supplement the VF's already considerable firepower, and you've got something that makes the Super Shadow Fighter look a bit on the anemic side. The larger airframe also leaves you more room for technological improvements further down the line, like a "safe" shadow device if anyone ever figures that out.

I would make a few changes, but not many.

I think the first thing I'd fix is the weight... OSM-ly, a fully loaded VF-2SS w/ Super Armed Pack is 19.1 metric tons, the RPG puts it at like 3x that. Hydrogen ain't that heavy, and the Valkyrie II's not that much bigger than a VF-1 either.

The Metal Siren should be left out for a while though. It really is a monster, and is so different in nature that it would make little sense for it to pop up to soon. In M2 it was only coming out as the Mardook attacked, and the VF-2SS had been the main fighter for quite some time by that point. (Decades?) [...]

Per the official Macross II series chronology, the VF-2SS was just shy of 11 years old at the time of the Mardook invasion in 2092. The VF-2JA was only 6 years old, while the VF-XX was pushing the big 3-0. (You might be wondering how they could be so new if the show's in 2092... they're actually the sixth and seventh main VFs of the UN Spacy respectively. They seem to have rebooted the numbering system symbolically for the Phase 2 designs.)

[Seto Kaiba]

The UEEF wasn't cut off until circa 2030. High-performance single package units don't seem to interest them even into 2044, otherwise the UEEF wouldn't have been testing SSFs, they would have been testing all new designs.

The UEEF's options were limited without significant manufacturing capacity to back them up... and apparently they didn't have that until circa 2043, after decades of making do with what they had.

Aside from the resources necessary to pull it off. Even today not every nation on the planet has the ability to design and build their own aircraft (and spacecraft and nuclear technology).

True, but this is a SF setting, and presumably if colonies were established they would be equipped to provide for themselves in the worst case scenario... since the whole goal of the program was "Let's spread out so we don't get wiped out in one go like we almost did the first time 'round, m'kay?".

The question has to be asked if those "deficiencies" are actual issues for the Colonies who could have different requirements than the UEEF for the militaries.

Alpha fighters rely on swarm tactics, and the Logan and AGAX are principally for planetary security rather than system defense... a manpower-limited force like a colonial garrison would need to maximize the abilities of their limited manpower. The multiply-deficient Alpha would be unattractive by any standard.

[ShadowLogan]

The UEEF's options were limited without significant manufacturing capacity to back them up... and apparently they didn't have that until circa 2043, after decades of making do with what they had.

The UEEF manufacturing was certainly up to the task, the only mecha I can find for the RPG continuity that was a burden in this respect was the VR-041 Cyclone. (TY's continuity who knows as that seems to change w/every new product). There is nothing about being a burden to produce for the Conbat, Condor, Alpha, Beta, or other platforms (at a glance).

They had captured Robotech Factory Satellites (several), any one of which would be enough for the UEEF manufacturing capacity. Their main limitation that I can find is in the ship production (SDF-3 restoration and fleet retrofit of Shadow tech) area, not mecha going by PttSC.

True, but this is a SF setting, and presumably if colonies were established they would be equipped to provide for themselves in the worst case scenario... since the whole goal of the program was "Let's spread out so we don't get wiped out in one go like we almost did the first time 'round, m'kay?".

That still doesn't mean they are going to have the capacity at the colony or there are enough personnel to go around to all the colonies AND the UEEF AND the UEDF-ASC with the necessary skills to design highly complex mecha.

Based on dates in the 2E RPG continuity, the UEEF truely hasn't designed a new ground up mecha (not ship) since the 2020s, the closest they come is the Silverback (and it borrows heavily from the Cyclone), so it does not look like there are many qualified mecha designers in their rosters, which I would think would look bad for the Colonies roster.

Alpha fighters rely on swarm tactics, and the Logan and AGAX are principally for planetary security rather than system defense... a manpower-limited force like a colonial garrison would need to maximize the abilities of their limited manpower. The multiply-deficient Alpha would be unattractive by any standard.

They might have limited manpower, but they still have to be able to afford to acquire and support what ever mecha/platforms they use. Said units also has to be able to perform all the duties assigned to it, and the numbers they can afford may not be up to the task forcing them into more cost effective options to do all that is put out for it. You assume they have a blank check/bottomless resources, but we know the UEEF and the UEDF-ASC do not operate that way as cost is an issue identified in the cancellation of programs, so it is unlikely that the Colonies are any different than the UEEF/ASC.

We have to ask, just what role the colony defense force is to play, do they limit themselves to a given radius like the UEDF-ASC for projection and rely on the UEEF for the rest or do they try to do everything? If they have limited manpower and resources, it makes sense that they would take the more limited role with support from the UEEF.

I would not discount the UEEF/ASC units either, it is possible they have customized/unique models to meet their needs that the UEEF does not utilize (the US does export "nationalized" variants of some aircraft (F-15 and F-16 both have models that fit this)). The Alpha does have the capacity to accept a FAST-Pack system, how old the capability isn't known, but it shows the unit can be potentially customized (not to mention the -6Z and -X/S show it is possible to) to have performance outside the common H/I. The Logan IMHO is more customizable than the AGAC, but both units get such limited exposure and development on screen I would not rule out the possibility for expansion (FAST-Pack style) or other variants. And a mixed force of Chimeras with some support from other types of units, could be a potent option that meets their needs.