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Not to mention that a depsioned Noro CK, or an Octoman or Zebuloid losing its tentacle benefits once a CK makes even less sense than the monstrosities in the "most mdc possible" thread next door.

Svartalf wrote:Guardian? What's that from? Same for Demon Knights0

Guardians are an RCC in Nightbane, Demon Knights are a class in Dimensional Outbreak.

flatline wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Nah, the Cosmo Knight class does not really fall into any of the three class types. Being the major portion of the class is being 'empowered' by the Cosmic Forge. However, calling it an RCC is the closest one of the three CC types.

Is a witch an RCC then?

Or Channelers? Or Corrupt? Or any Priest or Wormwood Communion OCC?

Rappanui wrote:this is one of the situations where the GM not the badly written patch rules are best considered sovereign.

Why should I consider a GM's house rule to be better? Usually we like to go in a sorta Kevin/RAW type sovereignness.

Rappanui wrote:Allow Normal abilities of the race with the cosmoknight, and don't allow Spell Casting races or machines to become one.

What's the problem with machines or natural spell-casters becoming Cosmo-Knights? Wouldn't be that huge a deal.

There's actually nothing stopping Cosmo-Knights from using the multiple OCC rules to learn magic anyway... *shrug*. Course I doubt most would, that way lies temptation.

Rappanui wrote:although i've allowed it, I generally don't allow races to poses things that they are naturally vulnerable to.

Do you mean to possess, or something else? can you explain?

Does it mean a Promethean isn't allowed to have a phase beamer?

According to the Palladium cutting room floor, OCC category

58. If a being becomes a Cosmo Knight, does he lose his natural abilities (i.e. Nightvision, Sensing supernatural evil, Psionics, Superpowers, Magic, etc.)?

Answer: Yes, they are effectively made over.

Rappanui wrote:

Svartalf wrote:

Rappanui wrote:although i've allowed it, I generally don't allow races to poses things that they are naturally vulnerable to.

Do you mean to possess, or something else? can you explain?

Does it mean a Promethean isn't allowed to have a phase beamer?

that's silly, it's their own tech. I mean things like a Megahero whose vulnerability is X to have X.

Well, Prometheans DO take double dmg from phase weapons...and your statement was so broad I had to make sure of what you meant.

It's just another OCC.
Do you lose racial abilities when you become a Ley Line Walker?

That's what I've been saying since the start of my posting in this here thread.

Not that I can find said faq on the site... I'm not very good at seeing the obvious, however.

Svartalf wrote:Not that I can find said faq on the site... I'm not very good at seeing the obvious, however.

Look in the 'Across the Megaverse' section.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Tor wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:there are newbs that are asking questions, so the answers need to not mislead them about what is the canon answer.

It seems to me that declaring CosmoKs lose their racial abilities without text to support that claim is what might potentially mislead newbies.

Nope, because they don't get any of the racial abilities. There is no Text in the stats that reflect the retention of any of their former abilities. All the stats listed for Cosmo-Knights are the stats for all Cosmo-Knights.

And we have already covered this before, and you have failed to show a clear statement in the text supporting you stance. Yes, there is a murky sentence in the flavor text that sort of might support your assertions, but that sentence's ideas did not make the grade when the stats were written out. Thus, make such determination is in the murky realm controlled by individual GMs to decide if that one murky sentence hold water for their game. As such it is not a part of canon that a player can decide for themselves that they can do. And therefor is a part of House Rules that must be presented as house rules.

After saying all of that to you, Anyone saying that "Yes, Cosmo-Knights get racial abilities from their former race." unilaterally is doing the misleading because they are stating their house rules as if they were canon.

Actually the reverse is true.
It's an OCC. No OCC states you keep your race's abilities, because it's assumed that you do.
In fact, I can't think of a single OCC that gets rid of racial abilities, with the arguable exception of 'Borg (I guess a full conversion might do it, replacing everything).

Vrykolas2k wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Tor wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:there are newbs that are asking questions, so the answers need to not mislead them about what is the canon answer.

It seems to me that declaring CosmoKs lose their racial abilities without text to support that claim is what might potentially mislead newbies.

Nope, because they don't get any of the racial abilities. There is no Text in the stats that reflect the retention of any of their former abilities. All the stats listed for Cosmo-Knights are the stats for all Cosmo-Knights.

And we have already covered this before, and you have failed to show a clear statement in the text supporting you stance. Yes, there is a murky sentence in the flavor text that sort of might support your assertions, but that sentence's ideas did not make the grade when the stats were written out. Thus, make such determination is in the murky realm controlled by individual GMs to decide if that one murky sentence hold water for their game. As such it is not a part of canon that a player can decide for themselves that they can do. And therefor is a part of House Rules that must be presented as house rules.

After saying all of that to you, Anyone saying that "Yes, Cosmo-Knights get racial abilities from their former race." unilaterally is doing the misleading because they are stating their house rules as if they were canon.

Actually the reverse is true.
It's an OCC. No OCC states you keep your race's abilities, because it's assumed that you do.
In fact, I can't think of a single OCC that gets rid of racial abilities, with the arguable exception of 'Borg (I guess a full conversion might do it, replacing everything).

The closest you get is the other way around, a few races that lose racial abilities because you selected an OCC that was incompatible with their race (like that elf race in South America, they lose their natural Biomancer abilities for selecting the Fire Warlock OCC), outside of full-conversion cyborgs like you note I can't think of any where the OCC makes racial abilities go away.

SpiritInterface wrote:According to the Palladium cutting room floor, OCC category
58. If a being becomes a Cosmo Knight, does he lose his natural abilities (i.e. Nightvision, Sensing supernatural evil, Psionics, Superpowers, Magic, etc.)?
Answer: Yes, they are effectively made over.

From http://palladium-megaverse.com/index.ph ... Itemid=200

The page which (3) also tells us "psionic powers cannot be taught" even though many OCCS make it very clear that they can be...

Or (18) that tells us that Apok masks are special symbiotes that don't die, even though Wormwood alleges no such thing and Burbs2FiretownPg27 mentions no such exception. Fortune hates needing to become a PPE vampire to keep his powers... and the only symbiotic powers an Apok has is from his mask. Ergo, you need the ritual to stop the mask from losers powers off planet.

Or (68) for some reason allow Maxi-Men to use TW devices...

Or (105) allow anyone with supernatural strength to harm a vampire

Or (121) inexplicably have vampirism eliminate murder mage abilities (even though masters/secondaries keep magic)

Or (145) states that psionics aren't integral to Techno-Wizardry even though it's an OCC ability (although this would clear up some CB2 confusion)

Svartalf wrote:Prometheans DO take double dmg from phase weapons

Dang, I actually forgot that, went looking for it under natural abilities, but it's hidden in the 'vulnerabilities' section on next page.

Kind of makes you think... these guys are pretty confident, since they mass-produce and sell weapons that hurt them badly to all kinds of hostile parties.

Tor wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Prometheans DO take double dmg from phase weapons

Dang, I actually forgot that, went looking for it under natural abilities, but it's hidden in the 'vulnerabilities' section on next page.

Kind of makes you think... these guys are pretty confident, since they mass-produce and sell weapons that hurt them badly to all kinds of hostile parties.

Because they know having a phase field will make them immune to phase weapons. And they make money selling phase fields. In fact, the more popular phase beamers are, the more popular phase fields will become and the more money Prometheans will make.

--flatline

In regards to OCC's that strip natural abilities:
Apok, 'Borg (already mentioned), Cosmo Knights, various Juicers as well (probably some others...).

Though let me say, I would only apply this to other supernatural abilities. Losing magic and psionics is iffy...but at the same time, I'd let a Wolfen keep their claws and sense of smell, a rahu-man or octo-creature-thing would keep their multi-limb coordination, yeah. Though innate spellcasting? That's a tougher nut to crack. I see the arguement for keeping them, but I also see the side of The Forge's touch purging everything that isn't approved by it in the process.

Though the easiest way to handle it is, "When you become a cosmo knight, you become a 4-limbed human being with cosmic forge powers", though the book does clearly state you keep your appearance so...yeah...good work Palladium!

As for Apok, it doesn't matter since, on Wormwood, it's about exclusively humans that have the kind of moral histories that lead to becoming Apok.

Just an example of OCC that strips your abilities, that's what was mentioned.

Actually, the Apok class does not strip your RACIAL abilities (though that hardly matters with all of them or nearly so being human), what it strips is your previous OCC and skills.

Well, well, well...go-go me, making assumptions.

Svartalf wrote:As for Apok, it doesn't matter since, on Wormwood, it's about exclusively humans that have the kind of moral histories that lead to becoming Apok.

Where do you get that? Other races on Wormwood who were good and turned to evil could also become an Apok. The Br'talb being a good example.

Svartalf wrote:Actually, the Apok class does not strip your RACIAL abilities (though that hardly matters with all of them or nearly so being human), what it strips is your previous OCC and skills.

Which is an interesting precedent for looking at the CK.....and can help explain why CKs have the skill set they do, even if they previously had a life.......

It might indeed explain why no great champions seem to be chosen by the Forge... Champion and youngster are both cast in the same mold

Tor wrote:

Svartalf wrote:As for Apok, it doesn't matter since, on Wormwood, it's about exclusively humans that have the kind of moral histories that lead to becoming Apok.

Where do you get that? Other races on Wormwood who were good and turned to evil could also become an Apok. The Br'talb being a good example.

the br'talb are former champions of Light? that's news indeed... even though they are not all beholden to evil, it seems that most of those found on Wormwood are in the service of the Unholy, and I have never heard of any having the light/dark/redemmption lifestory needed to become Apok. Seriously, do you have any sources for non human Apoks?

Svartalf wrote:

Tor wrote:

Svartalf wrote:As for Apok, it doesn't matter since, on Wormwood, it's about exclusively humans that have the kind of moral histories that lead to becoming Apok.

Where do you get that? Other races on Wormwood who were good and turned to evil could also become an Apok. The Br'talb being a good example.

the br'talb are former champions of Light? that's news indeed... even though they are not all beholden to evil, it seems that most of those found on Wormwood are in the service of the Unholy, and I have never heard of any having the light/dark/redemmption lifestory needed to become Apok. Seriously, do you have any sources for non human Apoks?

The whole race doesn't need to be Champions of Light, just the individual proto-Apok. As the Apok is an O.C.C. and has no racial restrictions, it would seem that all races are eligible for the class.

eliakon wrote:Which is an interesting precedent for looking at the CK.....and can help explain why CKs have the skill set they do, even if they previously had a life.......

We don't need help explaining that, it explicitly says the Forge wipes out their old skills. It says nothing about wiping out their abilities.

Svartalf wrote:the br'talb are former champions of Light? that's news indeed... even though they are not all beholden to evil, it seems that most of those found on Wormwood are in the service of the Unholy, and I have never heard of any having the light/dark/redemmption lifestory needed to become Apok.

A minority of the Br'talb are good and aid the forces of light, if they did that then sided with the unholy, they'd fit the bill.

Page 126:
"those recognized as Champions of Light are their sympathizers are hunted down or slain"
"those working with the Champions of Light are typically of a good or selfish alignment".

3/20 (15%) of them are allied with the CoL.

Besides them, you also have 10% of Entrancers (127) 2% of Morphworms (131) 5% of RamRats (132) and 5% of Shades. All allies of the Champions of Light are presumably candidates to eventually be counted among them. This would allow them to betray them and then double-betray and become an Apok.

The OCC description insists they must have been good guys who betrayed and became evil. Sadly you can't just be evil to begin with and then become an Apok Right below the big "Apok, the Avenger" heading at start of page 55 "men and women who started life as Champions of Light."

Svartalf wrote:Seriously, do you have any sources for non human Apoks?

It's not necessary, the OCC isn't described as being human-exclusive. None of the OCCs have racial restrictions which I can see. Some, like the Symbiotic Warrior and Freelancer even explicit mention D-bees being members.

Due to discrimination, if anything was all human I'd think it would be the Templars.

Tor wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Guardian? What's that from? Same for Demon Knights0

Guardians are an RCC in Nightbane, Demon Knights are a class in Dimensional Outbreak.

flatline wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Nah, the Cosmo Knight class does not really fall into any of the three class types. Being the major portion of the class is being 'empowered' by the Cosmic Forge. However, calling it an RCC is the closest one of the three CC types.

Is a witch an RCC then?

Or Channelers? Or Corrupt? Or any Priest or Wormwood Communion OCC?

Rappanui wrote:this is one of the situations where the GM not the badly written patch rules are best considered sovereign.

Why should I consider a GM's house rule to be better? Usually we like to go in a sorta Kevin/RAW type sovereignness.

Rappanui wrote:Allow Normal abilities of the race with the cosmoknight, and don't allow Spell Casting races or machines to become one.

What's the problem with machines or natural spell-casters becoming Cosmo-Knights? Wouldn't be that huge a deal.

There's actually nothing stopping Cosmo-Knights from using the multiple OCC rules to learn magic anyway... *shrug*. Course I doubt most would, that way lies temptation.

Ok, I figured it out. DrewKitty is really just a Troll. She just posts stuff to get people to argue about it. There are just WAAAAAY too many quotes that are pulled out the a## and completely illogical. Too many things that are 'cannon' that are not. Too many statements that clearly conflict with the rules. Just too many completely ludicrous things stated for her to actually believe them.

Mal

i believe if i read that paragraph correctly that the forge reshapes you, powers abilities skills are lost and overridden by the new cosmic form. However....if you fall....and lose that connection to the forge that makes you so cosmic...i don't see any reason why you couldn't recover some of your racial abilities. which makes much more sense as your character tries to "find himself" after such a great loss. My question would be what about the skills. Will you always have that -20% penalty or is that just for the skills you already obtained?

flatline wrote:

Tor wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Prometheans DO take double dmg from phase weapons

Dang, I actually forgot that, went looking for it under natural abilities, but it's hidden in the 'vulnerabilities' section on next page.

Kind of makes you think... these guys are pretty confident, since they mass-produce and sell weapons that hurt them badly to all kinds of hostile parties.

Because they know having a phase field will make them immune to phase weapons. And they make money selling phase fields. In fact, the more popular phase beamers are, the more popular phase fields will become and the more money Prometheans will make.

--flatline

thinking that is very much like modern day corperations

Really, everyone, it's another OCC.
Does a Wolfen Ley Line Walker lose his senses when he becomes one?
No.
So when he becomes a Cosmo-Knight, the same senses are retained.
The same goes for any other racial abilities like that.

so does that mean that the Cosmo-Knight centaur pictured in the Phase World book lost the use of his horse legs?

That's no centaur, it's a human in a halloween costume.

isawarenshi wrote:What if any of a Cosmo Knights previous races special abilities would they keep after being transformed into a Cosmo Knight?

"Their bodies and souls are seared and reshaped by cosmic forces. When they emerge, they are transformed by their experience."

They retain their appearance but are forever more supernatural creatures transformed into a new race. So I'd say no racial powers.

Roll your 8 attributes for your race. Then roll for Cosmo Knight and take whichever is higher.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Really, everyone, it's another OCC.
Does a Wolfen Ley Line Walker lose his senses when he becomes one?
No.
So when he becomes a Cosmo-Knight, the same senses are retained.
The same goes for any other racial abilities like that.

Personally I disagree with this. Becoming a Cosmo-Knight is completely different than than becoming a Ley Line Walker.

Ley Line Walkers are not transformed into supernatural beings.

When you become a Cosmo-knight you have two options from then until you die. Stay a Cosmo-Knight or become a Fallen Knight getting the spell selecton of a LLW or a Mind Melters psionics and do not get the OCC special abilities or skills. Just the spells or psionics.

Since you can only become a FK I personally see it as a mislabeled RCC.

This is just my opinion based on what the book says.

Edit: I looked up Bio-Borgs to see if the could possibly become that RCC but "Human looking Mega-Damage D-Bees can also become Bio-Borgs, but not supernatural beings or creatures of magic." WB 21 pg 160

The only possibility I can think of is being empowered by the Book of Heroes as a way to reboot or reinvent that PC. I see it less likely though that a Cosmo-Knight would get selected by the Book & Forge for dual empowerment. If someone was built up like that though they should just start their own pantheon.

For a Fallen Knight to me they already proved they cannot responsibly handle the granted powers for the forces of good.

You keep natural abilities. If it rewrote your race then racial attributes could not override if better.

Not a mislabel. Obvious in Federation of Magic that Kevin Siembieda is fine with an OCC that turns you into MDC and supernatural. Or with Lord Magi. Or with Witchery. Or Spirit Warriors in Spirit West. Or the Night Witch in Mystic Russia.

Carrella with Cosmo Knights or Mega Juicers is in line with central author. His work is not invalidated.

Witchery is a greater evil being (AI, Demon Lord, Dark God, etc) empowering a pawn with a tiny their own life force after a pact is made and/or fulfilled. This power can be shut off with a mere thought by the master. The Gift of Union is sharing your body with the master for even greater borrowed power.


Spirit Warriors are empowered by the Spirits and "The character must be of Native American descent. Other races do not have strong enough spirit potentials or beliefs to become a Spirit Warrior."
"From a traditional viewpoint, only the Tribal Warrior would be considered a true "Warrior," the others would technically be considered Shamans. I feel the separation of the Warrior Shamans below and the spell casters previously presented is useful for player reference and fits with the traditional presentation format of other Rifts books."


A Lord Magus is slowly transformed into a creature of magic by using alien meditation techniques (taught by the Three Lords of Magic to Dweomer) and constantly casting spells for 10-12 years before they become an official Lord Magus and get their first creature of magic ability Turn Invisible at will.


Nowhere in the Night Witches OCC can I find anything about being empowered by another being or who teaches new Night Witches. They can learn invocations like a LLW unlike traditional Witches. I don't know how they become MD critters with excellent regeneration, but they do.


Mega-Juicers can only be created if a person was any level of psychic or had a high PPE base 30 points or more.
"The idea was to use volunteers with high levels of psychic energy (PPE or ISP) and then trigger that energy through drugs and electrical implants. The energy would then be channeled through the body of the patient, turning him/her into a being of incredible strength and endurance."
"The triggering mechanism completely infuses the subject's body with psychic energies, giving his skin and muscle tissue the tensile strength of M.D.C. alloys while retaining the elasticity of normal human skin."


"Attributes: Use these die rolls, or the attributes of the character's original race, whichever are higher." DB: 2 pg 100
In games like magic the gathering misreading one word can completely change the affect of the played card. To my critical reading skills (which are far from perfect) original race means you've become a supernatural being of a different race.

The problem I have with allowing racial abilities is that if you let one in you have to let them all in. Which people look to exploit. Using Arismal as a base race you take the super power Impervious to magic. That is the one weakness of the Cosmo-Knight. Not that you have to worry about it anymore.

As usual this is just how I interpret the text and rules.

Technically, there's little difference between a witch with the gift of union and a cosmo knight...

When you become a Cosmo-knight you have two options from then until you die. Stay a Cosmo-Knight or become a Fallen Knight getting the spell selecton of a LLW or a Mind Melters psionics and do not get the OCC special abilities or skills. Just the spells or psionics.

I was wrong about this you can also become a Witch or Servant of a God. The book example is Warrior of Valhalla.

All the OCC's and powers start at level 1 regardless of the Fallen Knight's previous experience as a Cosmo-Knight.

Svartalf wrote:Technically, there's little difference between a witch with the gift of union and a cosmo knight...

They are both empowered by beings or an artifact with god like status for their power for sure.


A Witches power from the Gift of Union comes from the Essence Fragment of the Evil Force. The Essence Fragment can cancel any and all powers at will.
The Gift of Union makes your alignment whatever your masters is. The Witch, if they want to keep their power, is a subservient host for the greater being.
The Gift of Union also requires a Major Pact which is either life long servitude or selling of body and soul.


Cosmos-Knights gain their powers by the Forge seeking them out in a dream (or is it a dream C.J.C. ponders). If they accept they are reshaped by the cosmic forces of the forge. From then on it is their duty to maintain The Cosmo-Knights' Code of Honor and not abuse their powers lest they lose them.
The only ways I can think of a CK losing their powers is a drop in alignment. Even if they were thrown in a soul forge to create or empower weapons and/or armor they only lose 10% HP or MD per ability instilled.
CK's could be seen similar to life long servitude in that the will not age and can stay a CK as long as they live by the code and keep their alignment up.


Witch powers are given as long as they play their part for the master. Cosmo-Knight powers are with them forever unless their alignment switches to anything besides Principled or Scrupulous and they fall.


While I can see similarities between the two being a subservient host to a god like force of nature and being remade into an independent champion of good are very different to me.

It's the same, both must serve the Master (be it a demon, deity, AI, or the Forge) and both lose their powers (to a certain extent for the CK) if they stop serving to that being's satisfaction.

SpiritInterface wrote:According to the Palladium cutting room floor, OCC category

58. If a being becomes a Cosmo Knight, does he lose his natural abilities (i.e. Nightvision, Sensing supernatural evil, Psionics, Superpowers, Magic, etc.)?

Answer: Yes, they are effectively made over.

Is the FAQ official material?

If yes Palladium Books already addressed this topic and some of you just don't like the ruling.

If no I've not been presented enough evidence to be convinced personally that they keep racial abilities, but as always it is up to the GM running the show (or GMs consensus in my case since there are 3 of us in our game).

Either way I've had a lot of fun researching this post.


Edit: Canonical Status of the FAQ by Mack link viewtopic.php?f=44&t=114595

I always viewed the numbered Fan FAQs as a tier below the errata on the Cutting Room Floor or the Q&A in Rifters that often ends up in GM Gjides. Its stuff third parties answer vs stuff the first party authors originally wrote for the book but either cut for space or forgot to paste in the final copy.

I personally would allow a species to keep any natural abilities and powers that are inherent to them. To me they would be the shining example of the best of the species or one that has a calling that is unique to their inner light. To me it would be like saying, a person who is poor could not be president. Or that a woman, if she trains and has the inner power to stand by on a ground with a equally powered/skilled/talented man could not do many of the jobs that most men can do.

IronWarrior wrote:i believe if i read that paragraph correctly that the forge reshapes you, powers abilities skills are lost and overridden by the new cosmic form. However....if you fall....and lose that connection to the forge that makes you so cosmic...i don't see any reason why you couldn't recover some of your racial abilities. which makes much more sense as your character tries to "find himself" after such a great loss. My question would be what about the skills. Will you always have that -20% penalty or is that just for the skills you already obtained?

I as GM say it's just for the skills you had when you fell; later ones are acquired at the normal level. The GMs I've played under go the same way on it, since really a Fallen is about the same power level as a 'Borg... no need to keep penalizing their skills.