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Tor wrote:God's eye in CB of 'no crossbreeds' was clearly contradicted by actual gods who can actually interbreed with humans (and probably any other moral race) though. Not only did he allow Pantheons to be published, but he allowed the Demigod RCC to be used in Splynn Dimensional Market. Can't recall if it's appeared other places.

And its unique, in fact its so unique that on page 7 of Pantheons they go ahead and spell out that this is normally impossible, but that gods can do it even though "In the Palladium Megaverse, most supernatural creatures can not breed with humans or members of different species....." it then spells out that the ability to do so is considered one of the gods special powers...
So we can take from this.....that it takes LITTERALY divine intervention to cross species lines.....and that, canonically anything less than that is still insufficient. And also note, that this STILL only creates a demigod which is a member of the mortal race with a small portion of the powers of the parent.

eliakon wrote:

Tor wrote:God's eye in CB of 'no crossbreeds' was clearly contradicted by actual gods who can actually interbreed with humans (and probably any other moral race) though. Not only did he allow Pantheons to be published, but he allowed the Demigod RCC to be used in Splynn Dimensional Market. Can't recall if it's appeared other places.

And its unique, in fact its so unique that on page 7 of Pantheons they go ahead and spell out that this is normally impossible, but that gods can do it even though "In the Palladium Megaverse, most supernatural creatures can not breed with humans or members of different species....." it then spells out that the ability to do so is considered one of the gods special powers...
So we can take from this.....that it takes LITTERALY divine intervention to cross species lines.....and that, canonically anything less than that is still insufficient. And also note, that this STILL only creates a demigod which is a member of the mortal race with a small portion of the powers of the parent.

You have to go to people like the Gene-Splicers if you want to have such cross-breeding otherwise, the normal genetics simply aren't compatible and you can no more breed human to dwarf than you can to a horse or tiger (which is about what you've got people arguing).

If gods can do it, I say AIs and demon/deevil lords ought to have that potential as well.

I WISH CORMAL WAS MY DAD

Tor wrote:If gods can do it, I say AIs and demon/deevil lords ought to have that potential as well.

I WISH CORMAL WAS MY DAD

"I'm not fat, I'm putting on orbital mass."

J.L. Duncan wrote:Amazon Warrior women can breed with humans/Atlanteans (Rifts WB6)-but if the child is male it takes after its male parent-if it is female then it is an Amazon.

Amazons are essentially humans with some interesting magical-genetic modification. THey're like Zentraedi in that regard, only a lot more amped up human-scale.

J.L. Duncan wrote:Amazon Warrior women can breed with humans/Atlanteans (Rifts WB6)-but if the child is male it takes after its male parent-if it is female then it is an Amazon.

Amazons are also technically human or a human off-shoot like Atlanteans, Psi-Stalkers, and Sea Titans (to name a few) so there is no real reason they shouldn't be able to breed with normal humans or those that can breed with normal humans.

They can, the result is simply not a half-breed

Tor wrote:They can, the result is simply not a half-breed

Except, perhaps, to small-minded racist bigots who will look for ANY excuse to discriminate against a character on the basis of their heritage. Doesn't matter if a person's parents are, for all intents and purposes, genetically human(or of a particular species if you're dealing with bigots of other species/societies).
Of such distinctions are roadside stop brawls and Coalition States policies made....

Well, considering all Amazons come as the result of breeding with other humans (since they have no men) they won't face any distinct discrimination there...

and if it's common knowledge that the male offspring of Amazons are non-MDC wusses, I'm doubtful much discrimination exists there either.

Tor wrote:Well, considering all Amazons come as the result of breeding with other humans (since they have no men) they won't face any distinct discrimination there...

and if it's common knowledge that the male offspring of Amazons are non-MDC wusses, I'm doubtful much discrimination exists there either.

That's if you base your discrimination on strictly BIOLOGICAL terms.
To some, mere association with Amazons, Atlanteans, and their kin, is enough to go after the offspring. Thus, not everybody boasts of their Amazon or Atlantean heritage, no matter how happy their family lives.

True enough, I expect the CS wouldn't like it. Not sure about the dwarf-tolerating Cordobans. Or was that Columbians...

Well... some points here that I wish to talk about...

Gods Vision: Is all ok for Siembieda to say "No Crossbreeds in my universe". Its his creation after all. I am not discussing it.

What I am discussing is using science to base a decision to not allow half-breeds in a RPG game universe (that by nature is ficticious) when WE (human civilization) dont have knowledge of any extraterrestrial complex lifeform nor have WE (human civilization) studied such lifeform to draw a conclusion on the likely or unlikely of WE (human race) being able or not to mix with such lifeform or any other lifeform that WE (human civilization) are yet to encounter in our FUTURE travels in the galaxy.

My point here guys is very simple so allow me to elaborate:

1- All our knowledge on biology comes from studies and research made on the last 200 years based on Earth lifeforms and ourselves.

2- Our Earth examples of lifeforms says we are incompatible with then on a genetic level.

3- We have not found any lifeform on our current space exploration of the Solar System (not even fossilized bacteria as far as I know) to compare with the lifeforms of our planet.

4- Given the number of star systems in our galaxy, Earth is most probably not the only planet with life at all and the chances are that at least a few milion other systems have planets with life.

5- No scientist can state what form or complexity extraterrestrial life will have. They have several schools of thought and no concensus on that matter.

Sumarizing: Science dont know how life will present itself on other planets.

And my point with this is based on logic:

If we dont know how life will be on other planets we cant say "A" or "B" about then. And if we cant say "A" or "B" about anything regarding then how can we say that we will not be compatible with some of then?

Well, at least the limit is only on normal reproduction.

It's perfectly fine to make half demon half human creatures through other means, like Tolmet's deific power

Nightmaster wrote:Well... some points here that I wish to talk about...

Gods Vision: Is all ok for Siembieda to say "No Crossbreeds in my universe". Its his creation after all. I am not discussing it.

What I am discussing is using science to base a decision to not allow half-breeds in a RPG game universe (that by nature is ficticious) when WE (human civilization) dont have knowledge of any extraterrestrial complex lifeform nor have WE (human civilization) studied such lifeform to draw a conclusion on the likely or unlikely of WE (human race) being able or not to mix with such lifeform or any other lifeform that WE (human civilization) are yet to encounter in our FUTURE travels in the galaxy.

My point here guys is very simple so allow me to elaborate:

1- All our knowledge on biology comes from studies and research made on the last 200 years based on Earth lifeforms and ourselves.

2- Our Earth examples of lifeforms says we are incompatible with then on a genetic level.

3- We have not found any lifeform on our current space exploration of the Solar System (not even fossilized bacteria as far as I know) to compare with the lifeforms of our planet.

4- Given the number of star systems in our galaxy, Earth is most probably not the only planet with life at all and the chances are that at least a few milion other systems have planets with life.

5- No scientist can state what form or complexity extraterrestrial life will have. They have several schools of thought and no concensus on that matter.

Sumarizing: Science dont know how life will present itself on other planets.

And my point with this is based on logic:

If we dont know how life will be on other planets we cant say "A" or "B" about then. And if we cant say "A" or "B" about anything regarding then how can we say that we will not be compatible with some of then?

So what your saying is that, some how an alien life form will have an identical biochemical base, and identical genetic structure, the same number of chromosomes, etc. But that it will also some how be different (since we are talking about different races, not sub races, so this is not about different varieties of human, or elf or what ever). No offense but just saying that you don't know what its like doesn't mean you cant make some basic calculations. Either it uses the same biological properties as earth life, in which case we can make some assumptions about it, or it uses a totally different (and thus non-compatible) biological property. Other than directly appealing to magic/supernatural (like the demigod) I don't see how any two different life forms could be compatible, since that incompatibility is in fact, part of the definition of them being separate races in the first place (which is why Ogres, Humans, Atlantians, Amazons, et multiple cetera are considered one race).

Tor wrote:Well, at least the limit is only on normal reproduction.

It's perfectly fine to make half demon half human creatures through other means, like Tolmet's deific power

Of course even then its not a half demon, its a new creature that just happened to have been made by merging two other creatures. Its a subtle difference but a rather important one.

I'm not seeing what the difference is.

eliakon wrote:So what your saying is that, some how an alien life form will have an identical biochemical base, and identical genetic structure, the same number of chromosomes, etc. But that it will also some how be different (since we are talking about different races, not sub races, so this is not about different varieties of human, or elf or what ever). No offense but just saying that you don't know what its like doesn't mean you cant make some basic calculations. Either it uses the same biological properties as earth life, in which case we can make some assumptions about it, or it uses a totally different (and thus non-compatible) biological property. Other than directly appealing to magic/supernatural (like the demigod) I don't see how any two different life forms could be compatible, since that incompatibility is in fact, part of the definition of them being separate races in the first place (which is why Ogres, Humans, Atlantians, Amazons, et multiple cetera are considered one race).

The problem of making calculations about possible alien races using our current knowledge on biology is that we have a gigantic margin of error implied simply because we have not found any lifeform to study outside of our little precious planet Earth. Without examples to study you cant make a precise calculation. You can be right on the spot or you can be totally wrong but you cant be sure because you dont have enough information to put in the equation.

Also if you look at the number of possible star systems that could have planets with life, even if you say that the possibility for finding an alien race compatible with us is a miserable 0,0000001% you would likely found about 10.000 (based on a 100 bilion star systems as extrapolated by NASA in our galaxy) systems with such races in there. How would those races look like I dont know...

I am less concerned with whether an alien lifeform can successfully breed with me than whether or not it might consider me tasty and a prospective meal.

They are friends, they all read "To Serve Man".

Svartalf wrote:They are friends, they all read "To Serve Man".

One can only hope that haven't invented statins, and that a steady diet of humans ultimately leads to rampant fatal heart disease in them.

Tor wrote:If gods can do it, I say AIs and demon/deevil lords ought to have that potential as well.

I WISH CORMAL WAS MY DAD

You forget that while AIs are an actual species, tied to a specific dimension. Gods are being essentially made of the faith of their believers. So an AI as a species shouldn't be able to cross breed, but Gods, because they really aren't the species they appear to be or any species for that matter require a power to impregnate real creatures. Basically all demigods/godlings are made by (expecting some abuse here) midichlorians.

Nightmaster wrote:

eliakon wrote:So what your saying is that, some how an alien life form will have an identical biochemical base, and identical genetic structure, the same number of chromosomes, etc. But that it will also some how be different (since we are talking about different races, not sub races, so this is not about different varieties of human, or elf or what ever). No offense but just saying that you don't know what its like doesn't mean you cant make some basic calculations. Either it uses the same biological properties as earth life, in which case we can make some assumptions about it, or it uses a totally different (and thus non-compatible) biological property. Other than directly appealing to magic/supernatural (like the demigod) I don't see how any two different life forms could be compatible, since that incompatibility is in fact, part of the definition of them being separate races in the first place (which is why Ogres, Humans, Atlantians, Amazons, et multiple cetera are considered one race).

The problem of making calculations about possible alien races using our current knowledge on biology is that we have a gigantic margin of error implied simply because we have not found any lifeform to study outside of our little precious planet Earth. Without examples to study you cant make a precise calculation. You can be right on the spot or you can be totally wrong but you cant be sure because you dont have enough information to put in the equation.

Also if you look at the number of possible star systems that could have planets with life, even if you say that the possibility for finding an alien race compatible with us is a miserable 0,0000001% you would likely found about 10.000 (based on a 100 bilion star systems as extrapolated by NASA in our galaxy) systems with such races in there. How would those races look like I dont know...

What they look like is irrelevant. There are only two options. Either they are the same biochemically, or they are not the same biochemically. Its a binary set. Any answer can be then solved by looking at the two possible answers.
If they are the same biochemically, then terrestrial biology rules would apply, and we can then determine inter-fertility by analyzing the genetics and stuff. And since the definition of race would include compatible races.....if you did find another planet with people that could breed with humans, they would, by definition, be a sub-race of humans, since that is one of the basic definitions of a race.
If they are NOT the same biochemically, then taking half of a our DNA, and combining it with what ever they use would not create anything....half DNA strands only bind with matching DNA bases to start with.
The premise 'Well you don't know what's out there, so anything is possible' is faulty. Not ALL possibilities are valid. Especially since we can look at the game books and get an idea of what life is like in the Palladium universe. Life in the Palladium worlds tends to be organic, carbon based, oxygen breathing, and has two genders. However none of the races so far shown (that is 0.0%) have ever been inter-fertile with another species. Thus the statement 'Nuh uh, its totally possible, since you can't prove me wrong' is at best pointless, and at worst a simple logical fallacy.

And besides, even though life on Earth here is biochemically related, how many half-humans do you see wandering around(cue ominous banjo music)?

The PBS series "Your Inner Fish" is worth watching as it shows that the many manifestations of (animal) life on Earth owe their differences to a common genetic 'tool kt', and how common genes in different animals/steps along the evolutionary tree can express themselves in very different ways.

eliakon wrote:What they look like is irrelevant. There are only two options. Either they are the same biochemically, or they are not the same biochemically. Its a binary set. Any answer can be then solved by looking at the two possible answers.
If they are the same biochemically, then terrestrial biology rules would apply, and we can then determine inter-fertility by analyzing the genetics and stuff. And since the definition of race would include compatible races.....if you did find another planet with people that could breed with humans, they would, by definition, be a sub-race of humans, since that is one of the basic definitions of a race.
If they are NOT the same biochemically, then taking half of a our DNA, and combining it with what ever they use would not create anything....half DNA strands only bind with matching DNA bases to start with.

Again you missed my point.

I am not saying anything is possible. I am saying that what we know so far is not definitive on the matter at all and the so called rules can be (possibility) much more complex, diverse and extraordinary than what we know. You wanna an example?

Take a look at NASA's research on a bacteria that at the time (2010) they claimed that survived in a arsenate enviroment and that incorporated it on its DNA which was always a thing for science fiction. Later that claim was refuted but the fact that a bacteria survived in a arsenate enviroment and managed to growth shatered some believes of scientists about what conditions can harbor life in the universe.

What that means? That we still know nothing about life, its condition to exist, its variants, configurations and peculiarities.

After all... How could we know all that is to know about life in the universe if we have not leaved the confines of our solar system and meet other lifeforms out there?

I am not saying that scientists are wrong or right, just that they dont have all the pieces of the puzzle that is the mistery of life and thus they cant be 100% certain about how life will manifest itself in the universe.

eliakon wrote:The premise 'Well you don't know what's out there, so anything is possible' is faulty. Not ALL possibilities are valid. Especially since we can look at the game books and get an idea of what life is like in the Palladium universe. Life in the Palladium worlds tends to be organic, carbon based, oxygen breathing, and has two genders. However none of the races so far shown (that is 0.0%) have ever been inter-fertile with another species. Thus the statement 'Nuh uh, its totally possible, since you can't prove me wrong' is at best pointless, and at worst a simple logical fallacy.

You are stating the Palladium Books that by definition are based on the assumption that humans cannot breed with non-humans or that any species cannot inter-breed with other species, so is just natural that you dont find anything on that matter in the books. This is not proof of anything.

Also if we were to use/abide only to what is canon in the books then 75% or more of all that is posted on this forums would never exist in the first place.

Nightmaster wrote:

eliakon wrote:What they look like is irrelevant. There are only two options. Either they are the same biochemically, or they are not the same biochemically. Its a binary set. Any answer can be then solved by looking at the two possible answers.
If they are the same biochemically, then terrestrial biology rules would apply, and we can then determine inter-fertility by analyzing the genetics and stuff. And since the definition of race would include compatible races.....if you did find another planet with people that could breed with humans, they would, by definition, be a sub-race of humans, since that is one of the basic definitions of a race.
If they are NOT the same biochemically, then taking half of a our DNA, and combining it with what ever they use would not create anything....half DNA strands only bind with matching DNA bases to start with.

Again you missed my point.

I am not saying anything is possible. I am saying that what we know so far is not definitive on the matter at all and the so called rules can be (possibility) much more complex, diverse and extraordinary than what we know. You wanna an example?

Take a look at NASA's research on a bacteria that at the time (2010) they claimed that survived in a arsenate enviroment and that incorporated it on its DNA which was always a thing for science fiction. Later that claim was refuted but the fact that a bacteria survived in a arsenate enviroment and managed to growth shatered some believes of scientists about what conditions can harbor life in the universe.

What that means? That we still know nothing about life, its condition to exist, its variants, configurations and peculiarities.

After all... How could we know all that is to know about life in the universe if we have not leaved the confines of our solar system and meet other lifeforms out there?

And your missing my point. For something to breed with an earth life form it HAS TO HAVE SOMETHING TO MIX. Life doesn't just 'breed'. Its a complex biochemical process in which portions of the genetic code from both parents are combined (if you have two parents....which would be a perquisite to have a half anything.) THAT process is pretty cut and dried. There is no way to NOT use the genetic material of a parent, and still have that parent be a parent. To use the genetic material of the parent that material has to be compatible with the second parent. Period, dot, end of story. This stuff is just basic to the definitions of the words being used. If an alien does not use DNA, then they cant combine with our DNA. Period. If they DO use DNA then what we know of genetics applies. Period. This is not about 'what could life be like out there' this is 'can life out there cross breed with ours' The second field DOES have answers, since it is possible to look at one half of the equation (the earth life) and say 'Okay, this is how it works, what can work with it.' A terran life form requires DNA. It gets half that DNA from each parent. If the second genetic donner. does not provide DNA, then the life wont work. Why you ask? Why can't something out there work on rules we don't know? Because the Terran life that is half the equation needs a full set of DNA to make the proteins that make things work. THAT is why half-breeds don't work. Because if you have half the parts for a car, and half the parts for a jet, you do NOT get a flying car. You get a pile of spare parts.

Zer0 Kay wrote:AIs are an actual species, tied to a specific dimension.

The only species-based AIs I am aware of are vampire intelligences, Splugorth, Zllyphan and Star Hive Queens.

Furthermore, many AIs (including species-based ones like Zllyphan and Splugorth) can coexist simultaneously in multiple dimensions, so that hardly seems 'tied'.

I assume most other AIS are quite unique.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Gods are being essentially made of the faith of their believers.

This only applies to some gods, Wolvenar being a great example of a god who appears to exist purely for this reason. Other gods (Tolmet, Herakles, Dionysus) have mortal origins and were later elevated to gods, so losing worshippers would simply lower their power, not make them poof.

Zer0 Kay wrote:AI as a species shouldn't be able to cross breed, but Gods, because they really aren't the species they appear to be or any species for that matter require a power to impregnate real creatures. Basically all demigods/godlings are made by (expecting some abuse here) midichlorians.

I dunno, Herakles and Dionysus are explicitly demigods, and became full gods, so I presume they still possess mortal origin.

Pantheons isn't very clear on what happens if a normal demigod tries to procreate with a normal human though... not entirely lucid on that matter.

I ignore the no Half-breed rule at least in RIFTS but will respect it in PF as it makes sense there. I just say elves, dwarves & Orcs that can breed with humans are from an alternate PF world or separate "fantasy" world.

Or make some funny rule like elf+dwarf = human.

Tor wrote:Or make some funny rule like elf+dwarf = human.

And watch the fundamentalists of BOTH races go ape$#!+.
Poor bastard will be dodging axes from below and arrows from above.

I kind of want to make Hobgoblins a kind of mule cross between humans and goblins

Heck... maybe Dwarves are a cross between human and Gnome... well maybe Elf and Gnome because Humans are supposed to be the newer race...

Perhaps Troll+Gnome = Troglodyte?

Tor wrote:I kind of want to make Hobgoblins a kind of mule cross between humans and goblins

Heck... maybe Dwarves are a cross between human and Gnome... well maybe Elf and Gnome because Humans are supposed to be the newer race...

Perhaps Troll+Gnome = Troglodyte?

Given the size discrepancy between a Troll and a Gnome...
Tor, you sure you're not opening(or currently operating) a shop down a dark alley with the windows covered in shades, and advertised word-of-mouth only?

taalismn wrote:Your alternative is to construct your 'hybrid' as a new RCC: average out the stats between Humans and Elves(or your desired other species bookend), or roll up using the new races charts in Rifts: Phaseworld, where you can create a species with human-average stats, but elven features, and/or higher incidence of magic/psionics use.

Another 'build-to-yourself' option would be to use the Eugenic Heroes class in Powers Unlimited Two to create an 'elf-mod' package, which would be in keeping with advanced societies where biogenetic engineering is casual, or is being deployed as a means to infiltrate other cultures/species.

I would totally do that. I created a dwarf/elf race. I figured that the Old Ones experimented tons and I thought that something that was hairy and pointy eared, shorter then human, strong and gnome looking would be fun so I created a Dwelf. They can breed with either elves, dwarves or their own race. Each match will always be a Dwelf.

Zenvis wrote:
I would totally do that. I created a dwarf/elf race. I figured that the Old Ones experimented tons and I thought that something that was hairy and pointy eared, shorter then human, strong and gnome looking would be fun so I created a Dwelf. They can breed with either elves, dwarves or their own race. Each match will always be a Dwelf.

The dark side of the 'only produces a ---" trait is that more notorious races might use it to use genetic pressure to squeeze out mutually fertile/compatible neighbors, in the way they suspect Cro-Magnon did with Neanderthal.

Tor wrote:I kind of want to make Hobgoblins a kind of mule cross between humans and goblins

Heck... maybe Dwarves are a cross between human and Gnome... well maybe Elf and Gnome because Humans are supposed to be the newer race...

Perhaps Troll+Gnome = Troglodyte?

what are humans the new race according to? According to the PFRPG book The Yin Sloth Jungle, the humans were created before the Elves and Dwarves.

taalismn wrote:Given the size discrepancy between a Troll and a Gnome... Tor, you sure you're not opening(or currently operating) a shop down a dark alley with the windows covered in shades, and advertised word-of-mouth only?

I'll have you know that Gnomish men see the unique beauty of Troll women. They also comfort the often-neglected Ogresses.

Zer0 Kay wrote:what are humans the new race according to? According to the PFRPG book The Yin Sloth Jungle, the humans were created before the Elves and Dwarves.

This sounds like some secret revelation I'm unaware of. All I recall reading was that elves were one of the old races around when Titans and Dragons and Angels were battling the old ones (thus Lictalon and all that) and Dwarves and Changelings were also older than humans I thought...

If humans are actually older, this seems like something most people would be unaware of, as I got the impression they were perceived as being more recent.

Tor wrote:I'll have you know that Gnomish men see the unique beauty of Troll women. They also comfort the often-neglected Ogresses..

Currently bleaching my brain of image that brought up. Thanks, Tor.

Tor wrote:More nightmare fuel to bleach

Nah, that barely rates an eyebrow raise on my innuendo-meter.

taalismn wrote:

Tor wrote:More nightmare fuel to bleach

Nah, that barely rates an eyebrow raise on my innuendo-meter.

well... I guess toes mission is complete... Something raised... Check.