Our Fencing Cyberknight!

[Alrik Vas]

Considering a glitter boy doesn't kill on single shots vs heavy infantry armor, I don't think damage in rifts is ridiculous at all. Not from the tech side, anyway.

[Shark_Force]

a boom gun might not guarantee a kill, but it's pretty likely to do enough damage to one-shot heavy body armour in a single shot.

[Noon]

Yes it does.

Not sure if answering that yes it does add...1D6 Standard Damage.

[Alrik Vas]

a boom gun might not guarantee a kill, but it's pretty likely to do enough damage to one-shot heavy body armour in a single shot.

Yeah, it's likely, I just think it should be more than likely. Maybe I'll start another thread to address what I mean.

[Tor]

Boom guns are in a different realm, you can't wear GB armor into a lot of areas and it makes you a target. Your boom gun won't help you when you crawl out of it to stretch your muscles and sleep and a succubus jams her hand through your rib cage.

If we're going to double a starting Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword damage, may as well make a boomgun do 6d6x10.

[Shark_Force]

not really comparable at all.

the cyber-knight's psi-sword is the best weapon to have in an extremely limited set of scenarios, and doesn't generally help outside of those scenarios. also in most of those scenarios, your oaths as a cyber-knight probably prevent you from using the psi-sword (ie it's great if both you and your opponent don't have a weapon... except that you can't use a weapon against an unarmed person) the boom gun is the best weapon to have in a rather broad set of scenarios, and doesn't generally interfere with your abilty to choose other effective weapons for times outside of that situation; no, you can't take it everywhere, but it's not like the merc soldier gets to take their energy rifle everywhere either, and the merc soldier doesn't get a weapon with amazing range and damage attached to the toughest power armour in the core book as a compensation either, and when the glitter boy pilot isn't using the glitter boy suit he's probably using more or less the same equipment as the merc soldier uses normally anyways.

there is a world of difference between taking one of the least effective weapon options (swords in general or psi-swords in particular) and giving that a boost and taking one of the most effective weapon options and giving that a boost.

[flatline]

So explain to me how the fencing skill allows me to do more damage when I'm attacking something like the side of a tank or a wall where more precise point control and knowledge of anatomical vital points means exactly nil.

I'm not convinced.

--flatline

[dragonfett]

I think that along those lines, the Fencing skill should be changed from adding +1d6 damage to expanding the critical hit range against non-vehicular targets by 1 (so a critical hit range would go from 20 to 19-20, 19-20 to 18-20, etc.)

[Slight001]

So explain to me how the fencing skill allows me to do more damage when I'm attacking something like the side of a tank or a wall where more precise point control and knowledge of anatomical vital points means exactly nil.

I'm not convinced.

--flatline

Generally speaking I treat it as not teaching the specifics of humanoid combat so much as how to more effectively apply the weapon to the target to inflict the maximum damage. Course I also make it apparent that using a vibro-sword is different from using a conventional sword. Rather then relying upon brute force you need to rely upon the cutting field and to work with it rather than inspite of it.

[say652]

Fencing weapons.
Rapier, saber, epee, main guache, buckler.
Expanding this fleet footed deceptive style to include longswords, katana, claymores, or other non fencing weapons is laughable.
So you fence with a battle axe?? Really.
Or well flintlock weapons existed then so I can fence with an energy pistol ir rifle. Lol.

Supernatural Strength imo would increase md because it deals md also.

Fencing should only apply to fencing weapons.

Example. Stevie is wrestling up two weight classes, big man shoots. Stevie catches him in an anaconda choke and starts rolling turning it into a gator roll.
Did Stevie win?? No he was disqualified fir using jujitsu in a wrestling match.

So just because something looks close. Both grappling it doesnt make them the same.

[Tor]

not really comparable at all.

All things are comparable. Perhaps you mean 'not very similar' or 'nowhere near equal' or something like that?

the cyber-knight's psi-sword is the best weapon to have in an extremely limited set of scenarios

"these people don't want you to bring your sword into their building" doesn't sound that limited to me

Especially if we're comparing this to Glitter-Boys who are more often going to encounter a broader "we don't want you driving your tank into our town" policy.

Plus if Palladium had any decent grappling HtH rules, anybody who got within 3 feet of a GB should be able to automatically avoid the Boom Gun since the length should necessitate stepping back to be able to train it at an opponent...

Of course the same concern applies with a lot of rifles and the rules don't penalize them in close range so... meh. Roleplaying-wise you know this would be a limit in the Rifts universe, GBs would have to resort to punching or trying to toss opponents back to be able to get them beyond the gun's tip to fire at them. We just lack the combat mechanics to reflect this. N&SS range rules really should've been applied to other systems.

in most of those scenarios, your oaths as a cyber-knight probably prevent you from using the psi-sword (ie it's great if both you and your opponent don't have a weapon... except that you can't use a weapon against an unarmed person)

"I parry the energy blast / vibro blade the assassin snuck into my hotel" doesn't seem rare or off-limits.

the boom gun is the best weapon to have in a rather broad set of scenarios

I suppose if "I'm in the middle of a big open space" counts as broad.

you can't take it everywhere, but it's not like the merc soldier gets to take their energy rifle everywhere either

They can probably take it more places than you can pilot a GB though.

and the merc soldier doesn't get a weapon with amazing range and damage attached to the toughest power armour in the core book as a compensation either, and when the glitter boy pilot isn't using the glitter boy suit he's probably using more or less the same equipment as the merc soldier uses normally anyways.

A merc could always buy/steal a GB Course they lack that sweet upgrade RUE gave GBpilots.

there is a world of difference between taking one of the least effective weapon options (swords in general or psi-swords in particular) and giving that a boost and taking one of the most effective weapon options and giving that a boost.

True, I'm just talking about in terms of maintaining RMB balance between the weapons though.

So explain to me how the fencing skill allows me to do more damage when I'm attacking something like the side of a tank or a wall where more precise point control and knowledge of anatomical vital points means exactly nil. I'm not convinced.

Perhaps the bonus comes from learning to do a sweet lunge and putting your weight behind it rather than vital points?

So you fence with a battle axe?? Really.

Those being claymore equivalents, what about with a hatchet or short-spear or club? Those're light'n dancy.

Supernatural Strength imo would increase md because it deals md also.

If you have +94 to +99 damage, that d6 could give you an extra point.

[say652]

I believe if memory serves correct. Max ps for a normal human is only 50. With 60 being the most possible for a juicer max ps and all skills devoted to strength bumpers from like every book.
A supernatural strength of 60 deals 1D6×10md to me that should enhance any md dealing weapon that is physically based. Psi sword, vibr blades, magic weapons.
But ut clearly states ps does nit apply to ENERGY blades. Laser swords tribeam swords plasma swords. Tw flaming swords. Etc.
Now is a psi sword a pure energy weapon or is it a physical manifestation of psionic force and will??
Stop nerfin. Psi Sword reacts to physical objects as a solid object, hence strength applies.

[Hotrod]

So explain to me how the fencing skill allows me to do more damage when I'm attacking something like the side of a tank or a wall where more precise point control and knowledge of anatomical vital points means exactly nil.

I'm not convinced.

--flatline

If we assume a large, uniform, and featureless object is the target, it may be that skill is less important. That said, actual objects and adversaries in game and in real life are more complicated.

Take the example you provide. Tanks aren't just smooth metal boxes. Even along the side, they have vulnerable points as well, especially along armor plate junctions, welds, rivets, and wheel/sprocket joints. A well-executed attack will not only target these points, but will do so at an angle that is more likely to produce a deeper, more damaging hit, and not scratch/slide along the surface.

Furthermore, a good understanding of one's weapon can allow the wielder to be more effective with attacks, even against simple objects. A well-placed thrust (the classic fencing attack) can inflict plenty of damage without a lot of effort or strength applied, especially against an armored opponent, and it can take some skill to get just the right angle on an attack.

Damage is more than a function of applied force. Raw strength helps, but proficiency is important too.

[flatline]

So explain to me how the fencing skill allows me to do more damage when I'm attacking something like the side of a tank or a wall where more precise point control and knowledge of anatomical vital points means exactly nil.

I'm not convinced.

--flatline

If we assume a large, uniform, and featureless object is the target, it may be that skill is less important. That said, actual objects and adversaries in game and in real life are more complicated.

Take the example you provide. Tanks aren't just smooth metal boxes. Even along the side, they have vulnerable points as well, especially along armor plate junctions, welds, rivets, and wheel/sprocket joints. A well-executed attack will not only target these points, but will do so at an angle that is more likely to produce a deeper, more damaging hit, and not scratch/slide along the surface.

Furthermore, a good understanding of one's weapon can allow the wielder to be more effective with attacks, even against simple objects. A well-placed thrust (the classic fencing attack) can inflict plenty of damage without a lot of effort or strength applied, especially against an armored opponent, and it can take some skill to get just the right angle on an attack.

Damage is more than a function of applied force. Raw strength helps, but proficiency is important too.

And a Weapon Proficiency doesn't give the wielder "a good understanding of one's weapon"?

--flatline

[Tor]

Psi Sword reacts to physical objects as a solid object

Just for fun, can we establish this through either text or art, except for that odd "I climb robots with my psi-axe" Tarne story?

Consider the CB1 oddness of a cyber-knight using a vibro-blade to block an energy blaster, even though that results in the expensive vibro-blade taking damage. Why would he bother if he could just block with his psi-sword for free?

One explanation might be that he's trying to keep the ability secret, but nothing in the CB1 scenario indicated this.

The other explanation is that perhaps psi-swords can't parry vibro blades and he wanted to have the vibro-blade available to counter-act the CS guy's blade, even though in that case it didn't end up being necessary.

[say652]

I fence with a boomgun.

[dragonfett]

Psi Sword reacts to physical objects as a solid object

Just for fun, can we establish this through either text or art, except for that odd "I climb robots with my psi-axe" Tarne story?

Consider the CB1 oddness of a cyber-knight using a vibro-blade to block an energy blaster, even though that results in the expensive vibro-blade taking damage. Why would he bother if he could just block with his psi-sword for free?

One explanation might be that he's trying to keep the ability secret, but nothing in the CB1 scenario indicated this.

The other explanation is that perhaps psi-swords can't parry vibro blades and he wanted to have the vibro-blade available to counter-act the CS guy's blade, even though in that case it didn't end up being necessary.

I think there is another more likely answer to that question. Trying to avoid certain intellectual properties that now belong to a certain company made famous by a certain rodent...

[Incriptus]

I fence with a boomgun.

I too find it easier to sell my stolen goods when I have a boomgun with me, but I found that an ordinary hammer is a better tool for fencing around a farm.

[say652]

En guarde, touche, riposte.
*sonic boom* boomgun beats rapier. Everytime.

Unless its a fencing style weapon. Dont add the fencing bonus. Strength that inflicts md should apply. And whats next fencing with a giant size silver sword while duel wielding the spear of destiny??

[flatline]

In my house rules, skills like fencing, boxing, and such only add bonuses when the situation reflects the context of the skill.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Psi Sword reacts to physical objects as a solid object

Just for fun, can we establish this through either text or art, except for that odd "I climb robots with my psi-axe" Tarne story?

Consider the CB1 oddness of a cyber-knight using a vibro-blade to block an energy blaster, even though that results in the expensive vibro-blade taking damage. Why would he bother if he could just block with his psi-sword for free?

One explanation might be that he's trying to keep the ability secret, but nothing in the CB1 scenario indicated this.

The other explanation is that perhaps psi-swords can't parry vibro blades and he wanted to have the vibro-blade available to counter-act the CS guy's blade, even though in that case it didn't end up being necessary.

What level is the CK?

[Tor]

I don't remember if it said but he didn't have many attacks so probably a low level, I guess a vibro-blade could do more damage which could explain why he might use it. Although he just ended up shooting his gun so... *shrug*

I fence with a boomgun.

Y'know, considering all the deities who casually carry around detached boomguns (Anhur and Abki, and I think 1 other) we SHOULD be told how much damage cold-cocking someone with a boom-gun does.

Trying to avoid certain intellectual properties that now belong to a certain company made famous by a certain rodent...

It's not as if they can bounce them back, although building Targeted Deflection into a TW device would make that possible.

If they don't want them to be like that I'm not sure why they enhanced CyberKs so much in Sot4, effectively giving all opponents Stormtrooper-aim.

[Hotrod]

En guarde, touche, riposte.
*sonic boom* boomgun beats rapier. Everytime.

Unless its a fencing style weapon. Dont add the fencing bonus. Strength that inflicts md should apply. And whats next fencing with a giant size silver sword while duel wielding the spear of destiny??

1. Boom gun runs out of ammo.
2. An unexpected fight comes up, and neither combatant is ready. A rapier can be grabbed and drawn in a single melee action. Power armor has to be entered and started up.
3. Underground fight. The boom gun could cause a cave-in.
4. Fight in a submarine, nuclear reactor, under a potential avalanche, inside a chemical plant or spaceship. The boom gun is more likely to cause a lot of unintended consequences.
5. Fight around lots of unshielded people the GB pilot cares about.
6. Infiltration fight where the opponent must be taken out quietly.
7. Escape and evasion where you don't want to attract a wider hunt.

I can think of many scenarios where a boom gun loses out to a sword.

[say652]

En guarde, touche, riposte.
*sonic boom* boomgun beats rapier. Everytime.

Unless its a fencing style weapon. Dont add the fencing bonus. Strength that inflicts md should apply. And whats next fencing with a giant size silver sword while duel wielding the spear of destiny??

1. Boom gun runs out of ammo.
2. An unexpected fight comes up, and neither combatant is ready. A rapier can be grabbed and drawn in a single melee action. Power armor has to be entered and started up.
3. Underground fight. The boom gun could cause a cave-in.
4. Fight in a submarine, nuclear reactor, under a potential avalanche, inside a chemical plant or spaceship. The boom gun is more likely to cause a lot of unintended consequences.
5. Fight around lots of unshielded people the GB pilot cares about.
6. Infiltration fight where the opponent must be taken out quietly.
7. Escape and evasion where you don't want to attract a wider hunt.

I can think of many scenarios where a boom gun loses out to a sword.

So supernatural strength would work in all those scenarios also. Jussayin.

[Hotrod]

You're quite right. Strength bonuses should apply. So should skill.

[dreicunan]

@Tor: Per RUE page 326, the damage listed for ancient weapons is sdc, but high tech versions inflict same amount of MD. The slap glove in RMB is listed under equipment, but it is a simple piece of normal leather with some lead in it, placing it firmly in the realm of ancient weapons in regards to construction. The fencing skill, however, is clearly not a piece of equipment which would be governed by that rule. Hence why I feel that the most logical interpretation is that fencing adds +1d6 damage, just like it says, instead of inserting an sdc limitation for it that does not have clear textual support. Ergo, whether the damage is sdc or mdc is determined by the weapon.

[Tor]

+1d6 damage means sdc/hp, they write 1d6 MD when it inflicts Mega-Damage, or will note when something changes.

The nature of a weapon doesn't change how a damage bonus works. The bonus must be explicitly be MD to add MD, or else it isn't MD.

Example of this in CB1revisedPg50 conversion for "Spin at High Velocity" from HU2p291. The power gives you a bonus to damage with kicks or hand-held weapons. It merely says "Damage". MD can only be inflicted by spinning punches or body-blocks. Even then, only at top speed, so if you're spinning below top speed, your punches and body blocks would only get a 'damage' bonus.

This is SDC/HP damage and is not increased to MD because CB1 says where powers become MD and whenever it doesn't, they remain SDC/HP.

[dreicunan]

+1d6 damage means sdc/hp, they write 1d6 MD when it inflicts Mega-Damage, or will note when something changes.

The nature of a weapon doesn't change how a damage bonus works. The bonus must be explicitly be MD to add MD, or else it isn't MD.

Example of this in CB1revisedPg50 conversion for "Spin at High Velocity" from HU2p291. The power gives you a bonus to damage with kicks or hand-held weapons. It merely says "Damage". MD can only be inflicted by spinning punches or body-blocks. Even then, only at top speed, so if you're spinning below top speed, your punches and body blocks would only get a 'damage' bonus.

This is SDC/HP damage and is not increased to MD because CB1 says where powers become MD and whenever it doesn't, they remain SDC/HP.

Sorry, that doesn't follow at all. Fencing is a core skill in the RUE, not a converted skill - let alone a power - from another game. What CB1 Revised says about converting HU2 powers has no bearing at all here. If one is going to use something from another game as guidance, it would be the fact that splicers does clearly state that the skill works for either.

Regarding psi-sword benefiting from PS, the Rifts GMG makes it clear on p. 32 that it does not benefit from any kind of PS bonus, supernatural or otherwise. It is mentioned as a weapon that is pure energy.

[say652]

You know lots of this stuff finds its way into errata and becomes canon.

So psi sword just became another worthless ability since supernatural strength doesn't apply?? Buha!!
Times like this I switch the whole campaign to heroes unlimited. Cause it makes more sense.

Our hero stands and brushes off the many nerf arrows, they are unable to bypass his invulnerabiliy.

[Giant2005]

You know lots of this stuff finds its way into errata and becomes canon.

So psi sword just became another worthless ability since supernatural strength doesn't apply?? Buha!!
Times like this I switch the whole campaign to heroes unlimited. Cause it makes more sense.

Our hero stands and brushes off the many nerf arrows, they are unable to bypass his invulnerabiliy.

Psi-Sword is far from useless for the average player but if you are playing games as high powered as you seem to, then of course it is useless. Most O.C.C. abilities would be useless in your games because everything is better than the norm - anything "normal" is of little value when you are far beyond that level. The Supernatural have little use for the tools man uses to try and narrow the gap between their power levels.

[say652]

My psionic agent. Dove. Uses her psi sword weilded by super telekinesis. So in effect givibg her three blades at her disposal. I make that trick cost two attacks not actions per round and -2 intiative to maintain. She's a military gal.

My heroes unlimited games are actually pretty much by the book. My rifts games is where things get earth shattering.

Heroes unlimited team.
Secret operative.
Ancient master mutant cat.
Psionic.
Alien.
And I did use PowerSurge until the party kept using him as a distraction to catch bullets.

The agents had an almost coalition level distrust of mutants.

[Alrik Vas]

Psi-Sword is far from useless for the average player but if you are playing games as high powered as you seem to, then of course it is useless. Most O.C.C. abilities would be useless in your games because everything is better than the norm - anything "normal" is of little value when you are far beyond that level. The Supernatural have little use for the tools man uses to try and narrow the gap between their power levels.

Except for when the supernatural jerk faces go, "Whoa, i can kill them from over here with that? I'm in."

Granted, most are instinctual predators, so i get that they like their claws and teeth, but how many PC's wouldn't want a rifle regardless of their massive MDC and physical power?

Though i can think of a few, the answer is still "not many" over all.

+1d6 damage means sdc/hp, they write 1d6 MD when it inflicts Mega-Damage, or will note when something changes.

The nature of a weapon doesn't change how a damage bonus works. The bonus must be explicitly be MD to add MD, or else it isn't MD.

Example of this in CB1revisedPg50 conversion for "Spin at High Velocity" from HU2p291. The power gives you a bonus to damage with kicks or hand-held weapons. It merely says "Damage". MD can only be inflicted by spinning punches or body-blocks. Even then, only at top speed, so if you're spinning below top speed, your punches and body blocks would only get a 'damage' bonus.

This is SDC/HP damage and is not increased to MD because CB1 says where powers become MD and whenever it doesn't, they remain SDC/HP.

Except that's pretty lame. When things are lame you game on how you prefer, not how it's written. Basic rule of GMing. Honestly, there are a large number of people on this forum who want the rules clarified, changed and consolidated because they don't want to hassle with the game as is. Arguing for the rules as written, while it makes you correct, doesn't really matter to most gamers unless they like to argue for argument's sake.

[say652]

Gm handwavium. Except on the forums. Then its just a house rule and not canon.

I shall now fence with a fusion block to get 1D6 extra damage.

[Alrik Vas]

Gm handwavium. Except on the forums. Then its just a house rule and not canon.

I shall now fence with a fusion block to get 1D6 extra damage.

/thread

[Shark_Force]

it isn't a sword or knife, so doesn't work

[say652]

Its a rune fusion block though.

[Giant2005]

it isn't a sword or knife, so doesn't work

He could do it with a grenade knife! Close enough

[say652]

Since its indestructible cause its a rune fusion block it doesn't blow up or have any moving parts, wait a minute this is just a briefcase!!!

[dragonfett]

Who says that a fusion block can't be in the shape/form of a knife/dagger or a sword?

[flatline]

Who says that a fusion block can't be in the shape/form of a knife/dagger or a sword?

The explosive material and triggering mechanism is almost certainly spherical.

But perhaps more importantly, look at the name (Fusion Block) and ask yourself if the name was chosen because it was descriptive of the device.

--flatline

[say652]

Immediately shoves singed fingers in mouth, man that happens everytime!
En guarde. *waves another fusion block menacingly*

[Tor]

What CB1 Revised says about converting HU2 powers has no bearing at all here.

Actually it does: it serves as an example that "damage" is not MEGA unless explicitly made mega.

If one is going to use something from another game as guidance, it would be the fact that splicers does clearly state that the skill works for either.

Except that Splicers came out before RUE and Robotech, both of which did not say that. Splicers was also done by a third party while RUE/Robotech were done by Kevin.

Regarding psi-sword benefiting from PS, the Rifts GMG makes it clear on p. 32 that it does not benefit from any kind of PS bonus, supernatural or otherwise. It is mentioned as a weapon that is pure energy.

Yup, I had trouble finding which Rifter originally printed that, wasn't sure if it made it into the GMG.

However that whole "pure energy" thing gets argued a lot by Winslow "I can climb you with my psi sword" Thorpe and his fun psi-tomahawk story.

So psi sword just became another worthless ability since supernatural strength doesn't apply?? Buha!!

ITT something is useless if it doesn't do huge amounts of damage. Stackability with supernatural strength being a major determinant of CyberK usefulness even though most of them don't have it.

My psionic agent. Dove. Uses her psi sword weilded by super telekinesis.

I thought it disappeared if it left your hand.

how many PC's wouldn't want a rifle regardless of their massive MDC and physical power?

*watches all the Cosmo/Demon Knights and EE-using Invincible Guardsmen slowly raise their hands*

Though i can think of a few, the answer is still "not many" over all.

Many of players in general or many of power-gamers?

that's pretty lame. When things are lame you game on how you prefer, not how it's written. Basic rule of GMing.

Fair point, but in regard to that, I say it's also lame that only swords can benefit this and would allow players to select a fencing-equivalent to enhance ANY ancient WP skill.

Arguing for the rules as written, while it makes you correct, doesn't really matter to most gamers unless they like to argue for argument's sake.

Feel free to discuss a thread questioning the motives of anyone who brings up what canon is I don't really understand the 'sake of argument' expression too well. This could be brought up to deconstruct pretty much any issue though so I don't like the criticism, too universal.

look at the name (Fusion Block) and ask yourself if the name was chosen because it was descriptive of the device.

what will you do when I make 8 giant swords made of fusion blocks glued together and give it to a hundred-handed

[say652]

A hundredhand would murder your life!
Run!!!

[say652]

6D6×10 from hurling chunks of earth. Your carpet may be sticky but. Pffft is a sticky carpet palladiums claim to fame. Lmfao.

Ordinance??? 180,000mdc natural resistances. Unless your packin a FQ glitterboy battlion good luck. And if your traveling with them how'd you survive the finger wiggling??

Gust of wind?? Vs a multi ton giant. I'm not gonna even bother with that. Oooo a strong breeze on my ankle. Let me grab rhode island and chuck it at that peaky mage.

[Nightmask]

A hundredhand would murder your life!
Run!!!

Carpet of adhesion, gust of wind...

Drop what ever ordnance is needed on them

They ain't invincible, just durable

Considering they start at 20k MDC and can be as high as 120K MDC they're pretty darn close to invincible (no wonder Zeus used them when he went conquering to become the top god and overthrow his predecessors).

[say652]

My best attack lightning ray 1D6×10+4 md. Slow motion control. 1/2 damage bonuses and attacks.
Create 42 copies of self.

Um no way in hell!! Would I fight a hundred hand. They dont travel alone and usually gerald a Greek God's around. Nope.

Run!!!!!

[Hotrod]

Considering that the hundred handed have an average IQ of 5-6, no psionic abilities/resistance to speak of, and are pretty slow, they're hardly an insurmountable threat. As I see it, the whole point of them is that they're a threat that characters are meant to think, talk, or maneuver around.

[Shark_Force]

minor side note: last I checked, kevin siembieda is listed as one of the authors of splicers. yes, Carmen Bellaire was likely the driving force behind it, but pretty much nothing gets through PB without it going through kevin's hands. it's ridiculous to suggest that one PB product is more canon than another just because a different author was involved.

[say652]

Hundred hands, cosmo knights, Prometheans, phase mystics, Fenrir, The worlds serpent, splugorth some things you do not fight.

[Alrik Vas]

Uh, Say. I think a cosmo knight could take one of those hundred handed guys. Range is a problem, and the speed they can fly at would make them almost impossible to hit if they ever got into range.

Though in melee...yeah. But you'd have to be dumber than a sack of hammers to do that.